Are Cookies a Dessert?
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Me not know. Me not know who I am. Me need more self-actualization. Me be more introspective. This is a hot dog is a sandwich. Ketchup is a smoothie. Yeah, I put ice in my cereal, so what? That makes no sense. A hot dog is a sandwich. A hot dog is a sandwich. What?

Welcome to our podcast, A Hot Dog is a Sandwich, the show where we break down the world's biggest food debates. Me host Josh Scherer. Me host Nicole Inayadi. That was pretty good. That is Cookie Monster for those of you that grew up without cable. I started a public broadcasting service, PBS, I believe. For those of you that had cable but didn't watch... You could get it with rabbit ears. You couldn't watch the poor people's...

Correctamundo, correctamundo. I started to slip into Yoda a little bit there. Yeah, it's okay. It happens, Nacho. The pipeline.

We're talking about cookies today. Right. And we need to tell y'all how this started because we had an opinion casserole. We did. Where somebody was complaining about their father because we are now licensed therapists to everyone. That's right. Their father does not think cookies are dessert. And at first you were a bit flummoxed by that. I'm still a bit flummoxed. Gob smacked. And I felt like I immediately knew where they were coming from.

Because the nature of what is dessert? Hell, what is a cookie is actually a lot more complex than we think. So much more complex. And also the opinions of old people are also more complicated than we think. Why? Why do the old people have more complicated subject matter? I wouldn't say complicated, but I will say there are generational divides on...

on foods for sure right in terms of your attitudes towards foods for instance this is not I love you Susan but like I went out so I went out to a nice restaurant with Julia and her brother all of us are within you know a four year age gap and her mother who is you know who birthed them so she's older and we ordered all of this food and one of their courses was like a you know fancy $14 bread course you know Parker house rolls with whipped miso pumpkin butter what the hell ever

Okay. You know the type. And so they bring out the first couple courses, which are like a raw seafood preparation. Susan don't like eating raw seafood, which is a generational divide. Okay, fair. Yeah. We've talked to our guy Joel Stein, who's a Gen Xer, and he said the biggest generational divide in food for him is your opinions on sushi. Interesting. Okay. He's like kids these days grew up with sushi, but he's like for me it was a new thing. And then for my boomer parents, they were like –

completely against the idea of raw fish. They thought it was weird. Was the introduction of sushi raw fish and rice always? Because I would like to think that that might have been how it started in some places, but then it started maturing to the salmon tempuras. California rolls and all that. Sure, but I mean, that was still the essence of sushi. It was like, especially started in insular Japanese communities. But anyway, so we're eating this raw seafood and we'd order this bread course and Susan kept going, where's the bread?

And we're like, oh, well, it's coming. And we ask the server, where's the bread? And he goes, oh, I was going to serve that with the salads and whatever that's coming next. Because she would think that the bread would be the first thing. Correct. And the bread should already be on the table when you sit down. Oh, for free. Well, I mean, not even necessarily for free, but if you have to buy it. The bread should be free.

Because those are probably the restaurants that she ate at growing up, right? I miss those restaurants. Yeah, you go to the Outback Steakhouse, man. I miss free bread. You go to an Italian restaurant and they got either bread or breadsticks or whatever. Olive oil and balsamic. Remember that? But this was a very normal thing for me. So it's just these little divides. And then when you go into like, what is dessert?

What can you expect reasonably from dessert? That is another generational divide. And this has happened for hundreds of years. We've seen this generational divide happen. And I love this story. I'm geeked out on this. Say it. Okay, say it. Go crazy. Go wild. So the term dessert, right, it's literally French, right? It's dessert. Dessert.

And it comes from the verb desservir, which literally means to deserve. Correct. And so this all goes back to like French aristocratic courts about 300 years ago in the early 1700s where they would have these big lavish banquets. And they just switched to what they called service rousse or Russian-style dinner service. That's right. That's right. And you can track a lot of this through history. So they stopped going from these like medieval banquets.

Anglo-French-inspired dinners where they would just have gigantic roasts on the table, and you've seen Game of Thrones, and they're all eating it, whatever. But service russe was more of an individually plated dinner service. Right, right, right. And they would have all of these coursed-out things

You have a list of what the service roost is. Should I let him know? Let him know. Tell him what the courses were. Okay, so you would start with l'appetit, which is a pre-meal drink to stimulate the appetite, often accompanied by a small snack or an amuse-bouche. And then you would go into your appetizer, also known as l'entrée, a light starter such as soup, salad, pâté, or seafood. And then la plate principale. My French is so good. It's so good.

It's the main course, the main dish, often featuring meat, fish, poultry with vegetables in the sauce. And then, la fromage. This is the cheese course, a selection of cheeses sometimes served with bread and fruit. Then, le dessert, a sweet course which can include pastries, tarts, ice cream, or chocolate dishes. Then, le café, which was a post-meal coffee, usually an espresso shot or two.

And then finally, Le Digestif, a strong alcoholic drink like Cognac or Brandy meant to aid in digestion. So what is that? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven courses with the rousse plating. And so when you hear people talk about like progressive tasting menu, whatever, it's generally based off of like the French. And also this doesn't include things what were called like entrepôts.

Like entremets, which are like the interval courses in between that you could be served things. Palate cleansers. Even when we look at – if there was a three-course meal, what would the three courses be? Breakfast, lunch, and dinner. What? What the hell are you talking about? Soup salad and breast sticks. Jeez, right. It would be an appetizer, a main, and a dessert. Yeah, and the main is normally called –

Entree. An entree, right? But if you look at the French service, entree means appetizer because entree literally means to enter. This is how you start the meal. Entree. But so many of the things that we even take today, if you go to a Chili's and they have an appetizer entree dessert special...

Which they always do. Includes a drink. Includes a drink. A margarita, to be exact. But, like, you're still using literally a French aristocratic term for their Russian-style royal court dinner service at the freaking Chili's today. So all this stuff has trickle-down effects. It's ingrained in us. It really is. And the idea of dessert, right, is part of that trickle-down. This course used to be called le fruit or the fruit. They were like, this is the fruit course. Because the fruit...

So the fruit would be in the dessert course or in the cheese course? So the fruit would be – there was no such thing as a dessert course. It was called the fruit course. And then it wasn't actually until the French Revolution where they started renaming it dessert because they just shuffled around. The Jacobins were like really obsessed with how language affected the politics of the people. So interesting. Okay. So for whatever reason, like you used to have these –

Like, almost like these giant art pieces. So a lot of that, like, sugar work stuff started in the 1700s in France. Very cool. 100%. And so people, you know, pastry chefs would make these crazy, like, it was still called the fruit course. So there would be these crazy glass sugar sculptures that would be, like, holding apples and plums and stuff. And then...

And they sort of – as sugar got cheaper, as flour got cheaper, as community ovens got more accessible, they started to change the nature of, hey, we're not doing crazy glass sugar work here. We are making these pastries and stuff like that and serving it as a dessert course. So it kind of switched to something a little bit more accessible. So it kind of switched. And then –

And then it just continues to democratize. We even see this style of food being common in the 1800s in America. It is a bizarre amount of middle class Americans. I'm getting a lot of this from the book Revolution at the Table by Harvey Levinson. Great book. But a bizarre amount of middle class families in 19th century America had servants. Right.

That tracks. And there ended up being something literally called a servant shortage as people started to get more economically, you know, mobile. But a lot of them were like immigrants coming over from, say, Eastern Central Europe that were working in the servant economy. And so you had middle class families trying to like replicate these –

seven-course service a la rousse French dinners because that's what high society still meant in America was pointing towards the French. And so then dessert in the 1800s became an American tradition as well. Interesting. And so now here we are. So what does that have to do with chocolate chip cookies? I'm so glad you asked. Because cookies, the idea of it, right? Like etymology of cookie comes from the Dutch kook.

Sorry, Dutch people. K-O-E-K is how it's spelled. There's an umlaut somewhere, no? I don't know if there's an umlaut. That's really depressing. I freaking love a well-placed umlaut. Loves an umlaut. And then the I-E or J-E in Dutch is like a diminutive form, so it's little cake. Little cake. Little cake. But, you know, baking a little sugary nugget of pastry, that goes back to like 7th century Persia. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

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Grazie.

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Or do you not think cookies are not a dessert? Because I think cookies are a dessert, 100%. I think they're a dessert, but I have a lot of empathy for people who think that they wouldn't be. But they're a sweet treat that you enjoy typically after a meal. So by default, they're desserts.

I don't – I feel like you need – I'm becoming the most annoying reply guy. Debate me. But no, I think you need data to back that up, to say typically enjoyed after a meal. Of America's cookie consumption. Our whole lives we've been told don't have a lot of sugar before dinner. You're what?

You'll spoil your appetite. Exactly. Okay. So? Oreo. Say Oreo is like the most popular cookie in America. Okay. Fair. That might be the case. I'm not sure if it is. What percentage of Oreos do you think are eaten after a meal? I will even say after dinner because I only think that – I think that dinner is the only meal that gets a dessert. I know like Lunchables have a little candy in their thing. Kids will get a sweet little treat at lunch. Right, right, right. But I think dessert is a function of dinner.

Dessert is a function of dinner. Okay. So are you saying that an Oreo is a snack?

Yes. I think an Oreo is more commonly associated with being a snack. So you would compare Oreo and Chips Ahoy, the little ones you get in the blue package, the six pack of them. I like the chewy ones. They taste like the good chemicals. Oh my gosh, I love chewy chocolate chip chips Ahoy cookies. Did you know this about me? No. Oh my god, I could shove them in my mouth at all times. They taste so... Chewy like mochi. They're so chemically. My problem is... So you mean to tell me those kinds of products you would lump in with Cheetos? Yes.

As a snack? Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. What are you talking about? I'm going to start going crazy here. There is... You ever read Medieval Recipes? I'm sorry, say that slower? Do you ever...

Read medieval recipes. Medieval? Do you mean medieval? I say medieval. You say medieval. Like meta evil. It's spelled medieval. Oh, just because it's spelled one way doesn't mean you have to say it that way. I say Wednesday in February as well. Yeah, I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. We were just talking about it. I haven't gotten a diagnosis for what this is yet, but I'm trying to figure it out one day. I think you're great. Whatever you are, you're great.

But if you read like medieval recipes. It's medieval. It's not medieval. It's not in the middle of the evil. No, it's medieval.

I'm sorry. I don't agree with you. It's like mischievous. It's not mischievous. It's not mischievous? No, there's no I in that freaking word. It's mischievous. It bothers me. You bother me. What were you saying? Yes. Have I seen medieval, for the sake of this conversation, medieval recipes? Yes. You look at a medieval recipe for like a lamb stew. Sure, sure. And it's like almonds, raisins, apples, sugar, cinnamon, stew it with the meat. Yes, okay. That's like...

If you replace the meat with rice, that's rice pudding. That's a dessert. Yeah, but there's a savory component to the meat. There's savory. Like rice, is rice sweet or savory? It's nothing. It's just bland. But like why is meat savory? Because it has MSG.

Naturally occurring glutamates. Yeah, it's not terrible. That's a pretty good point. We equate umami with savory typically. I don't know where to pivot from here because I got got. Oh, yeah? You didn't think I was going to pull out the monosodium glutamate, did you? He never thinks about it, but I always do. My general point that I don't think there is as strict a divide between what a sweet food is and what a savory food is.

So when you're talking about a Cheeto and an Oreo, sometimes you might be craving something savory and craving something sweet. Okay. But sometimes I'm craving an apple. Sometimes I'm craving an orange. They're still fruit. An apple and an orange are fruits. They are sweet. Sure. But sometimes I'm craving an orange. Sometimes I'm craving a carrot. And I go check a fridge. And those are both sweet. Yeah.

Sometimes I'm craving an orange. Sometimes I'm craving – I'm never craving celery. A cucumber. I'm saying like if you walk over to our little snack bin in the office and you just go, I want a little nosh. And you see like you could see a Cheez-It and you could see a Milano and you could make an easy choice between those, right? You could be like those are two viable snacks right now. They are two viable snacks, but I will say that they fall into two different categories. Certainly different categories, but so does a chewy granola bar and a Milano.

despite the fact they're both sweet. I would consider those both to be sweet snacks. Sure, they're sweet snacks, but I'm saying like there's not as strict a divide. So like if you were to eat an Oreo in the middle of the day, I don't think you're eating... That's not dessert. Like dessert, you're eating a snack...

You know, that just happens to be sweet versus a snack that happens to be savory. Especially because sweets have been around for thousands of years and the term dessert we don't really see until literally 1789, whenever the revolution was. Well, my problem is it's – I think it's the way you're raised a lot of the time.

So, I mean, like, after Shabbat dinner, today's Friday. I mean, whatever day it is you're watching this, it's that day. But today it's Friday, right? After we have, you know, Shabbat dinner, we're going to turn down the table and then we're going to go, we're going to, what is it called? Like, recess to, like, the TV room. Yeah, yeah. My mom's going to bring out tea. She's going to bring out desserts. And she's going to bring out fruits. And she might bring out cookies. Yeah.

Yeah, but for you, if there were only cookies, would that change? Say there wasn't tea. It's still dessert. Say there wasn't. There's always tea. There's always tea. I'm telling you, it's how you're raised. No, I 100% agree with you. But that makes this whole thing even more interesting. But the cookies, so if the cookies were divorced from this, if the cookies were gone, if the cookies were never there, it would still be dessert. If the cookies were added in, the meal would still be dessert. Right.

So for you, the way you were raised was like anything that is more sweet than savory. High sugar content is dessert. Anything that is a high sugar content is considered dessert. But only served after dinner. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Because you could have – I'm sure when your mom has a tub of cookies now, so you went and you grabbed one at say 3.30 p.m. home from school. Just kidding. She never spit on me.

But you know what I mean? Like that wasn't, you weren't like eating dessert at that time. Dessert is predicated on the fact that you just had dinner. So the cookie from the tub at 3 p.m. is, it's not dessert. It's a sweet treat. But do you consider a little sweet treat to be mini dessert? Yeah.

Like you're cheating God? Like you're cheating the system? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, because I think that's not the way that sweet treats have been treated throughout the entire world, throughout history. Like a little piece of chocolate. Okay, here, let's do a lint truffle, okay? A lint truffle. We got these little lint strawberry cream truffles. Oh my God, injected directly into my veins. Just like this quick. Sorry, go ahead. What is with a side note? Why are you and I so obsessed with fake strawberry flavor? Why?

Why is it so good? I think it's because strawberry Nesquik was so big. There's some sort of like freaking alien brain response you and I have to fake strawberry. Maybe we have a parasite that feeds. There's like one pheromone or chemical in fake strawberry. We have cats. It's having the cats. I freaking love fake strawberry. Okay. Sorry. What was I saying? Lint truffle. You're talking about a little piece of chocolate. A little piece of chocolate before...

Before, like after lunch. What is that? It's a little piece of chocolate that you ate. It's not like dessert? I don't think so. So I think I tell myself if I have a Lindt truffle after lunch, it's like a little dessert. It's not dessert. It's a little dessert. Let me ask you then. If you ate, say, 20 minutes before lunch comes, right? This happens a lot. You're on a shoot. Lunch isn't here for 20 minutes. Bag full of nuts.

Is that an appetizer? Yeah. Really? You're eating a bag full of nuts? Like, hey, enjoy your appetizer in the cold. No, an appetizer is mozzarella sticks. Well, you had to be in an appetizer. Were you in an appetizer family growing up?

No. You're poor. It was just food. It was slop. Literally, like when you would go out to eat with your family, would you guys get like mozzarella sticks and Diet Cokes? Oh, no. Never. Never. No, no, no, no, no. That's a bourgeois. That's literally a bourgeois thing, right? The idea that there's a meal before your meal, that's crazy. And then there's a meal after your meal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's nuts. But the way that you're talking about the handful of almonds because lunch was late as an appetizer is—

You can now justify any single food that you eat to be within the Chili's appetizer entree dessert dichotomy. I'm at work. I'm at work. Any sweet thing you eat can just be a dessert for the previous meal that you'd eat. I'm not going to have dessert after breakfast.

Most breakfasts are dessert. We had a meeting today. They had a bunch of just coffee cakes. Oh, that was crazy. It's a cake. It's just dessert. They had bagels. They had bagels and cream cheese. So, Yui, if you got a little nugget of coffee cake and half a bagel and cream cheese. Oh, I totally had a little piece of coffee cake after my bagel. I just negated my own. Oh, my gosh. 1,000% after I had my delicious poppy seed bagel. Yeah. I went with a little fork.

You know, I'm the person at the office that cuts all the desserts into like fourths. Okay, I am too, yeah. Okay, and I took a little fourth of a coffee cake and I just ate it and I'm like, okay, that's my little dessert. You have the one with the goo on it? Oh, the cookie dough goo? There's some sort of cookie dough goo on it. I saw it and I said, uh-uh. Yeah, I didn't like it. I had the coffee cake one. But see, like I had a little bite of something sweet after my savory breakfast. But do you think you could reasonably call that dessert? Instead of?

Just a little sweet treat that you ate. We could. There's somebody out there that's just saying, hey, if you're saying sweet treat, that's synonymous with dessert. Sweet treat is synonymous with dessert for me. But not to this person's dad who said the cookies aren't dessert. I don't care about this person's dad. I'm talking to you, Josh. We're going back to Susan, all right? So check it out. Anytime Susan comes over for dinner. And no, so Julia, my lovely wife, she grew up in a household that ate dessert every single night.

A big East Coast Jew thing, Entenmann's coffee cake. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. All the Entenmann's family of products. I grew up with that, too, but we didn't eat dessert every night, obviously. But, like, that is a thing for her. Like, the meal is not complete until there has been some sort of sweet thing. And I think for Julia, in the way that she was raised, which is reflective of how her parents were raised, right, it has to be some sort of, like—

cakey thing or pie-y thing or a fruit-based thing. It's almost more of a composed dish than a cookie. Oh my goodness. This is so interesting. I know. So I'm picturing this person. I don't know where they grew up, this father, that like, you know, just gets a cookie on his plate and he's like, well, there needs to be like, where's like the cream? Where's the ice cream? Where's the like...

You know, sauce, whatever. So extravagant. I agree. But also if you're talking about like, you know, something I really respect about the way Julia grew up was like,

dinner family time as like a ritual is really important to them. That's how my in-laws are too. They love to eat together all the time and you have to be there at a specific time. But even when you said like there's always tea, right? There's always tea after the meal. Yes, yes, yes. That's an important ritual family time, right? That is, yeah. And you literally deservere the dinner table and go to the family room and have your tea and your dessert. It's a continuation of the dinner ritual. Right. So for this person, a cookie could be seen as like... Disrespect.

Yeah, breaking that ritual. Because you're just eating with your hands mindlessly as opposed to like enjoying a little dish. Being intentional and like talking. Guarantee you if that mother ever had a bowl of Jell-O, he would have gone, yes, that's dessert. Guarantee you. Really? Guarantee you. My mom used to make Jell-O with pomegranate seeds inside. It's awesome. My mom's Jell-O was the bomb. She hasn't made it in like 15 years. It's not in vogue anymore. Very sad. Gosh, Josh, are you... I'm just like...

I'm just like thinking because I think my whole life like dessert was like a bad thing. You know what I mean? Like sweets equal bad. And it's unfortunate, but it's true. Obviously, I'm older now. I'm 30 now. I'm like I'm breaking up with that part of growing up. But my thing is like I think a cookie equates –

because it's a sweet treat. Yeah, is it like not the most high-end? Is the effort not necessarily 100% there? Yeah, but I think it still qualifies. Like cookies and milk, what a fun little thing to do for dessert with the fam. Cookies and milk, milk's favorite cookie, Oreo. Yeah. I equate cookies and milk. I'm trying to think back to my like richer, waspier friends growing up. Like you would finish –

basketball practice at 4 p.m. and dinner wouldn't be till 6:30 or 7:00 you go over to their house and their mom had cookies on the counter as an

Entremet. Uh-huh. Right? Not as a, but like as a little snack, right? Okay, I'm thinking about cookie jars in like white people's homes. Yes, white people love cookie jars. White people love, you know who else is the Kardashians love cookie jars. There is definitely a socioeconomic argument to be made there that they're trying, you know what I mean? What? Adopting the practices of what they view as white rich society. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And having cookie jars. Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh. Do you have a cookie jar in your home? Is that like a big...

What? I don't know. No. That's what I'm saying. I never had a cookie jar. But like the concept of a cookie jar has been around forever. I wonder who invented the cookie jar. Are we associating cookie jars with whiteness? Is that problematic? Can you Google that, Jamie? Why do white people love cookie jars so much? You know what song I love? You know the song that can't keep my hands out the cookie jar with the Gym Class Heroes guy? So I'm thinking like the house that I got a lot more of my food culture in.

They capture American kitsch. American kitsch says – this is upsetting, but that reads white, right? I don't know. Something about cookie jars. I would say so. Yeah, something about cookie jars are just like white – rich white people that I went to school with, just like you did. Yeah, 100%. I will say the house that I got more of my food culture from than my own was a Gujarati household. Yeah. And you think about like Indian sweets, right? You know? Oh, sure. Like they are –

One typically eaten after a meal. Not a – like so many Indian sweets, which I love, love, love. Like gajar halwa. Okay, yeah. It's like carrot. It's carrot that's cooked down with a bunch of sugar. But so much of it is just like some sort of flour, some sort of like ghee, butter element, sugar, nuts, and fruit.

And it comes together in just all these beautiful amalgamations. Now, my question is, would Deep's mom, who we're talking about, would she ever buy, like, pre-made cookies from the Indian market? No. And she would just pop? Absolutely not. Never? I don't believe you. No, but she had jars of, like, savory, like, snacks and stuff that she would also make.

And so she had a lot of jars of food. See, because my mom used to buy like little rice flour cookies or little like chickpea flour cookies from the store. So like those cookies, I equate those as cookies as I do chocolate chip and ginger snap and everything else. Yeah, we didn't even really get into like what is a cookie and what isn't a cookie because I think – Is a macaroon a cookie?

When you say macaroon, do you mean coconut? Well, no, but like for real, do you mean American coconut macaroon? You mean macaron. That's the French president, Macron. Is he still the president? I think he's still there, man. Because Marine Le Pen, she didn't win the referendum or whatever. Anyways, a macaron? No. What are they? Dessert? Confection. Confection. They're too delicate to be a cookie. Just egg whites and almond flour. But then is a coconut macaroon not a cookie?

You know what I mean? Yeah. It's the same dish. I think I've been just so desensitized by those damn coconut macaroons my whole life, especially during Passover. I love them. I love a coconut macaron. Are they Passover? Yeah, yeah. Manischewitz just makes – I don't know. Manischewitz, which is like the Jewish brand. It's just the one that they carry in stores. It's it, yeah.

They sell these just – it's like a giant Pringles can inexplicably filled with coconut macaroons. And I don't – I mean, there's no flour in it. No, no. So that would make it – It's egg white, coconut, and like sometimes almond paste. Corn syrup.

I actually bully Maggie every time she brings them for Passover. She, like, brings them to the office and I go, ha-ha, you brought macaroons. And she's not here today. They're so good. But I literally bully Maggie all the time. Maggie, if you're listening to this, sorry, I bully you about your tin of macaroons you bring every Pesach. If we reframe this whole cookies aren't dessert debate, I have heard people say this phrase multiple times. What's that? Fruit isn't dessert. Sorry, I have sciatica and I have to readjust. Sorry.

Fruit is not dessert. That's something that people will say. Fruit is dessert. I agree with that entirely. I love fruit for dessert. And it's like from the fruit course literally turned into the dessert course. I, every time. Well, also all of these, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'm so sorry. Well, to be fair, I feel like the fromage, dessert, cafe, and digestif has all condensed into one course being dessert.

Sure, correct. They've all condensed. If you're going on the Chili's appetizer entree dessert, which we base everything off of. Yeah, so the entree, the, you know, the amuse-bouche, that turns the appetizer to the entree and the plat principal, those have now fused. You know, like you kind of mash things together. Your entree can be a pasta or it can be a steak. Or it could be crab rangoons. Or, no, that's your appetizer. No, but have you ever gone out with someone who like— You're getting crab rangoons as a main? Have you ever gone out with people that get—

appetizers as they're made. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's... Those people exist. I don't like them. That's me. I'm only ordering from the small plates. I just... There's no... Tapas. But, yeah, like, you're going to Chili's. It's like, no, I'm not going to get the, like, chicken breast with mushroom and Swiss. Yeah. I'm going to get 19 orders of Southwestern egg rolls. Have you had the triple dipper? Yeah, the triple dipper combo. Have you gotten the...

The mozzarella sticks, all three different kinds of mozzarella sticks. Bro, the Nashville hot mozzarella stick. Last time I was at Chili's was Valentine's Day, and there were Nashville hot mozzarella sticks. Yeah, I know. I went with my friend to go gossip a little bit. We drove like 45 minutes in the rain, and it was the best time we ever had. FB. FB, you're going to Chili's on Valentine's Day? FB? FB. What does that mean? Front to back? Front to back?

Jamie, you're picking up what I'm putting down, right? Yes. What does that mean, FB? So our cookies dessert. Jamie, tell me what it means. No, whisper it right now. FB. Oh! You're filled with grace. Your hands are spicy. Ew! You do that? Yes, almost exclusively. I think it's really important to remain intimacy. But then also you can still throw down at dinner. I think it's really important. So cookies. Cookies. Cookies.

Oh, a thing I didn't get to say and I need to say it. No, sorry. Go, go, go, go, go. Cookie and tortilla are the same word. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cookie just means little cake in Dutch and then tortilla just means little cake in Spanish. And then what does torta mean? What torta? Tell people what torta means. You gotta FB with the torta so you can really go throw down at the Chinese buffet.

Google it. So Josh, are cookies a dessert? Yes or no? Ultimately, yes. Dessert is more of a ritual than the type of food that you eat. Fair. You know what I mean? So if you are a, I can only assume a boomer dad who doesn't think that cookies are dessert,

That's not dessert for you because dessert is like a feeling. It's a feeling of finality at the end of a meal. Sure, a little extra effort. Yeah, personally, I'll eat an orange. I'll cut up fruit as dessert, and that's a perfectly fine fruit for me. The most common dessert I eat in my house is pineapple with tajin. Cute. But it's the ritual that makes it. Cookies are dessert, and I don't care what you have to say, boomers.

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All right, Nicole. Put your headphones on. No, I don't need them. All right, Nicole. We've heard what you and I have to say. Now it's time to find out what other wacky ideas are running out there in the universe. It's time for a little segment we call Opinions Are Like Casseroles.

Before we get into that, let's play this or that cookies. Are you ready? Let's do it. Okay. Chocolate chip or snickerdoodle? Snickerdoodle. What? Okay. Snickerdoodle or ginger snap? Ginger snap. Ginger snap or oatmeal raisin? Oh, heavy hitters. Oatmeal raisin. Oatmeal raisin or peanut butter? Oatmeal raisin. Oatmeal raisin or sugar? Oatmeal raisin. Oatmeal raisin or M&M? Oatmeal raisin. I'm an old lady. Oatmeal raisin or shortbread? Oatmeal raisin.

Oatmeal raisin. I'm like a golden girl. Oatmeal raisin or kitchen sink cookies, my favorite. Oatmeal raisin. Oatmeal raisin or double chocolate chip. I don't care about the chocolate. I want my raisins. Oatmeal raisin. Oatmeal raisin or thumbprint cookie. Get your hands off my cookies. Give me the oats and the raisins. Oatmeal raisin or gingerbread. Gingerbread. Gingerbread or fortune cookie. Gingerbread.

Can my gingerbread tell me the winning lottery numbers? I don't think this one can. Then gingerbread still. And finally, gingerbread or black and white cookies? Oh, can't forsake my Jewish heritage. Black and white cookies. Do they actually taste good? No. Shout out to Bubby up there in the sky. She would want me to eat it. Black and white cookie. That's it. Chocolate chip or snickerdoodle? Chocolate chip.

Chocolate chip or ginger snap? Chocolate chip. Chocolate chip or oatmeal raisin? Chocolate chip. Chocolate chip or peanut butter? Chocolate chip. Chocolate chip or sugar cookie? Chocolate chip. Chocolate chip or M&M? M&M! M&M or shortbread cookie? M&M. M&M or kitchen sink cookie? Oh my god, I love kitchen sink cookies. Kitchen sink, kitchen sink. Kitchen sink cookie or double chocolate chip? Kitchen sink. Kitchen sink or thumbprint? Oh, kitchen sink. Kitchen sink or gingerbread? Kitchen sink, kitchen sink. Kitchen sink or fortune cookie?

Honestly, I love a good fortune cookie, but I'm gonna go with kitchen sink. Kitchen sink or black and white cookie? Kitchen sink, babes. What's in a kitchen sink cookie? It's like pretzels and potato chips and candy. You're a goblin. You don't want a cookie. You just want to blend all your snacks together. Yeah, I'm a goblin. You just found out. I get it. Proves how much you know. What's a goon to a goblin? Back to you, Chris.

All right, Jamie, crank up that first opinion. Let's listen. Hey, guys, this is Mason from Florida. Long, long, long time Mythical Beast. I've been watching the Mythical Kitchen since Josh started the channel and been listening to Hot Dogs as a sandwich since the very first episode. Oh, gee. Really controversial take. I know both you guys are going to attack me, but I don't really care. I'm ready. Avocados are disgusting and so are pickles. I love you guys. Don't roast me too hard.

You dumb, stupid baby Mason. What kind of name is Mason? I love the name Mason. Mason's a good name. These are two of my favorite foods and I'm so offended right now. And I fear if I talk about this, I might get too emotional. So I'm going to let you handle this because these are my favorites. I love names that are after professions.

You know what I mean? Like a pickler? Mason, Cooper. Pickler? Fletcher. Fletcher's a job? Yeah, you make arrows, right? What? Fletcher is somebody who makes an arrow. Anyways, avocados, I 100% love avocados. It's like one of my favorite foods in the world. I really understand why people would find them disgusting. It's like it's meant to be mushy. It has this kind of subtle bacterial flavor to it.

Okay. But it's nice. In a way that I just enjoy. But I could get why people would be sensitive to that. Same way if people dislike papaya or jackfruit, a lot of these tropical fruits, if you didn't grow up around them, they can have this sort of like bacterial twang. Mm-hmm.

That's just wrong. But again, pickles are fermented. It's bacterial. Like there's a chance that you might be some sort of super taster, that you might be sensitive to things. But no, to me, those are like, give me an avocado and pickle sandwich. Yeah, I'd love that actually. That'd be my ideal sandwich. When people say they don't like pickles, I'm curious if you mean pickled cucumbers.

I think that's yes. Like generally when people are saying they don't like pickles, they don't like pickled cucumbers. Sure, but I wonder if they'd enjoy like pickled carrot, pickled green bean, pickled radish. Maybe you'd like a lacto-fermented pickle instead of, or like a Persian pickle instead of your classic dill, you know? Are you going to hit him with, have you ever had a Persian pickle? Never mind. I agree. Is this FB related again? No, it's not FB. Mason, thank you for the call. You are valid. We will not roast you. Thanks for listening for as long as you have. It's really nice of you.

Hey, hot dog friends. Wanted to leave my newest crazy cooking take, and that is replacing celery with iceberg lettuce. Hold on. Yeah, cook it down. And celery is, like, bitter, and I don't like it. But iceberg lettuce basically serves the same purpose. You know, it's just flavored water, so you're going to be putting it in, like, soups and stuff. So it contributes more flavor than other things in a mirepoix like carrots, which don't break down in water. I love this so much.

Chunky. So like celery, mostly waterborne, iceberg lettuce, waterborne, but tastes better. So yeah, try it out. I would love to. No. Why? This is the type of unhinged stuff that I live for. Just use a green pepper. No, but green pepper, they have such a strong metallic tang. Like I love green pepper. I love a Cajun trinity in food. Like a sofrito situation. Lettuce in place of...

makes me uncomfortable. I don't like it. Okay, so if you like look at soups around the world and how people build flavor out of broths, so many things coming out of Western Europe are kind of based on a mirepoix or a sofrito or, you know, whatever. But have you ever had like some of my favorite Korean soups, the main flavoring are like a winter radish and a clam. Yeah.

Yeah, sure. And I love that. I love that rad shifangsheng broth. Karguksu. Karguksu, right? Yeah. That's awesome. So I would love to taste what an iceberg-flavored broth would be because I do think iceberg, people say it has no flavor. It does. Iceberg has an awesome flavor. It's just a very crunchy, clean flavor. It's clean. It's a little bit nutty, especially if you get to the heel of it. I think it's almost got this kind of like...

Watery, fresh hazelnut flavor. I see, like, the core of it. Yeah. I see what you're saying. And use that instead of... Because to me, celery... I like celery in, like, a light broth. Okay. Because it kind of gives a bit of verdancy, a bit of green to it. Okay. Which I enjoy, but I don't love the taste of celery in general. I love celery. Yeah, why not use the sweetness of iceberg? I would pickle...

iceberg lettuce. Is that weird? No, well, I mean, so he talks about both of them being primarily water, which is absolutely true. Yeah. But like celery has a much stronger cellular fiber structure, right? Yeah, it's more fibrous, yeah. So if you cook down iceberg, I'm really curious to see what it would turn into. I don't want to know. Probably similar to if you just cook down cabbage, right? Yeah. No, well, no, cabbage is more fibrous too. Definitely more fibrous, but like when you really cook down, say you shredded cabbage. Have you ever cooked down like romaine or something? Yes. Okay.

You have? Well, I mean, what about like spinach? You know, you'd cook down a lot of other greens that you would both eat raw. Cooked arugula is great. Really? You've never cooked arugula? Never have I ever cooked arugula. Yeah, man. Toss arugula into a stew. See what happens. Don't knock it till I try it, I guess. People eating raw collard greens, that's weirder. Sure. Raw collard green wraps? Ugh. Ugh. Gross. I would do a light blanch. No? They're even raw? Yeah.

You ever go to Erewhon or Whole Foods? Have I been to Erewhon? Yes, I've been to Erewhon. Are you renewing your Erewhon thing? No, absolutely not. Never going back to that place. I'm not allowed. Oh. There was an incident. Oh. Hey, y'all. This is Camille from North Carolina. So I have a question. Yes. Have either of you tried lutefisk before? Oh, okay. If so, would you classify it as a biological weapon under the Geneva Conventions or no? No.

Thanks. Bye. So fun. She's from North Carolina. Is this one life-ish? Ludafisk, yeah. Ludafisk. I've seen it. My introduction to Ludafisk was an episode of King of the Hill. I've never eaten it before, which is – oh, I have. I have eaten Ludafisk. We did it for the show –

Probably six years ago. Wow, really? But the lutefisk that we got, I don't know, I just kind of ordered it off the internet and threw like a seafood broker or whatever. It was kind of like a bag. It might have been Santa Monica seafood actually. Oh, okay. But anyways, we ate it and it was kind of good. It reminded me of gefilte. And then somebody that had like had proper lutefisk in Minnesota –

It's this like Scandinavian thing that is now big in like the North Dakota, Minnesota, big Scando areas in America. They ate it and they were like, this isn't real lutefisk. So I don't know if I just had, you know. Well, what is lutefisk? Tell the people what lutefisk is. I don't know the exact origins. You're Googling it out here, but I think it's. It's lye fish. Yeah, you preserve fish with lye. What is lye? Lye is an extreme basic solution, right? It's a strong alkali solution.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's on the opposite side of the pH. It's anti-ceviche, right? It's on the opposite side of pH from an acid, which can also, it's just antimicrobial. And you can, you know, preserve fish for years. There's that. There's also like,

I don't know. It's spelled like Haw-Carl. It's a gigantic shark. Yeah. I think Ludafisk is roughly the same. Right. There's a whole episode of King of the Hill about a new church pastor that's a woman that moves from Minnesota to Arlen, Texas, and she brings Ludafisk, and it's a whole... They don't like her because of it? Yeah. Not because she's a woman. Well, it was both. Oh.

Oh. And then Bobby eats the lutefisk and then takes a crap in the bathroom. And then it smells so bad because it's a lutefisk poop that he tries to light a match, but he accidentally burns down the church. Oh. Yeah. I've never seen a full episode of King of the Hills that bad. King of the Hills, I think it's the best show ever made. It's the only animated show that I've really fallen in love with. It's the only what? Animated show that I've really fallen in love with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's my purse. I don't know you. As someone who loves animated shows, I need to watch... I think the animation makes me a little uncomfortable. Why? Does some animation make you uncomfortable when you watch it? You mean the actual drawing style of it? Yeah. Some drawing styles are so uncanny valley to me. I'm just like... Mm-mm.

Like, I can't watch Daria because it's the same style of animation. Oh, you're right. I can't watch Beavis and Butthead, same style of animation. Yeah, well, Beavis and Butthead, same creator, Mike Judge. Yes, it is Mike Judge. But I love Mike Judge stuff other than his animation. Sorry, Mike. I know you're listening. I'm a super fan. God, we love Mike Judge. I do love Mike Judge. Idiocracy, Dodgeball. Idiocracy is one of my favorite movies of all time. Was Mike Judge office space too? I think he was. I'm not sure. He was office space. Yeah. Silicon Valley.

Silicon Valley? I can learn to love the animation, Mike Judge. Next opinion. I'm going to look up Mike Judge's. Hey, y'all. Love the show. Greg from Philadelphia calling.

Why is the Lunchables Kraft Heinz pizza sauce so delicious? And why can't I find it jarred, canned, replicated anywhere? You know who loves the sauce? You know who drinks the sauce? V. Really? I've seen her suck the sauce out of a packet. I was never raised on Lunchables.

So I never got to savor the flavor. So unfortunately, I'm not the best person to talk to about this, but I can only imagine how deeply tomatoey and processed it is. So I wish for you to get that similar experience. I would say look into pizza sauces instead of spaghetti sauces, like jarred pizza sauces. If you go to like a Walmart, try to get like the great value. Or if you go to Aldi, go to like get the label from the grocery store. You'll get close, I feel like.

Sugar. The answer is sugar. Yeah, it's the 80% sugar. It's sugar. It's just sugar. Yeah, you're like a hummingbird ultimately. You just want the sugar. Oh my gosh. I get it. It's good. Speaking of hummingbirds, I've had three hummingbirds come into my house within the past week. They just come into my house and they like...

explore my house and then they leave. You're either going to get rich in the next couple months or you're sorry you're going to die. Oh. Yeah that's that is an ancient Greek omen if I've ever seen it. Three of them? Hummingbirds circling around you yeah. Literally it's so crazy they like literally come into my living room and they circle circle circle for like five minutes and I try to like get them out but they just can't. Don't get them out don't get them out then you're definitely going to die.

If one of the hummingbirds has a snake in its little talons. No, no snake. Then you're actually about to found a great nation. Okay, I'll keep an eye out. Yeah, you should plant the flag right there. I'll keep an eye out. Yeah. Okay.

So Mike Judge, he, yeah, Daria was Mike Judge as well. I didn't realize that. I told you. I told you. It's the animation style. One thing about me is. You still like Mike Judge animation. That sucks. I love it. But I love him and his storylines and his ability to create wonderful stories. The animation just turns me off. But you know what? Maybe that's just a hump I need to get over. That's something I need to just grow out of. And that's okay.

I know. I think Bob's Burgers is the same for me. I love the animation style. I love so many things about it, and I've just never been able to get into it because I think the animation is just...

See? So maybe you and I aren't so different. Matter of fact, after all, we're actually not that different. Look at us. Look at us. One more opinion. One more, JB McGee. One more opinion, JB McGee. Hey, Dr. Nicole. Hey, buddy. I feel like I've always been told to dump out that stagnant liquid that comes in canned beans or canned fruits and vegetables before eating the food. I don't really know why, but every time I open up a can, my inner child who followed rules would say, you don't drink that.

My confession is I take a sip every time. And you know what? Canned tuna water. Not the oil, that's a bit much. And not the solid white albacore. But chunk light tuna water is delicious. And I don't know if I can recommend it. Mercury? Oh, you're fine. Try it out. Thanks.

I don't want to. I... Yeah, I'll do it. Screw it, I'll do it, man. Next time I open up a can of chickpeas, I'm ripping some of that aquafaba. I'll rip some of that liquid. I always rinse the liquid. I always do too, but I don't... I'll tell you what. I went to a barbecue spot in Goleta, California, and they had like barbecue baked beans, and you could just taste so much canned liquid in it. It was just cans of beans plus barbecue sauce. Sounds foul. Indeed. Indeed.

And it might have been at a place called Santa Barbara Chicken Ranch, too, looking back. I think it was a damn Santa Barbara Chicken Ranch. I don't know what that means. Oh, come on. You people out there know. Anybody who's been to the Santa Barbara Chicken Ranch, come talk to me about it. I'm sorry. I can't. But ever since then, I'm just like –

I'm rinsing the liquid off the canned beans because that tastes so bad. I always do that. I've always been taught to do that. I think it gets rid of the gas too. I don't know. My mom's done it, so I do it. Yeah, we should do something about it. We should do some actual chef-y testing on this. Hey, man, you're in charge. You do whatever you want to do, buddy. I'm right behind you. I support you 100%. But for this person, it sounds you're curious like a cat. You just want to experience all the things in life. I think you have a little rebellious streak against authority probably.

and maybe struggle with impulse control. Yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah. Drinking tuna water, not normal. We'll say that. Not normal. You know, I recently saw a TikTok where the can says, do not throw away the oil on the top. Do not throw away the water on the top. Mix it in with the tuna, and it, like, rehydrates it. Have you seen this? No, but that makes sense. Yeah, there's some cans will say...

Please do not empty out the liquid out of this tuna can because it is like all the flavor and stuff is in there. I've never had that before, but I'd love to try it. Love to try it. Well, Nicole, we have that opportunity to try it.

I don't know why. I thought that was going to lead into an outro. Anyways, we're done. We're going to stop it. I'm so hungry. I need to eat some lunch. I'm so hungry. Jesus God, I'm hungry. Do you have lunch today? No, I have half a leftover lunch from yesterday. Oh, they got me Mendocino Farms. And I put it inside. I'm actually eating some of, I believe, Trixie's sandwich that I put my goop meat in. It's so good.

I put my goop meat in Trixie's sandwich. Anyways, thank you so much. This is not my hot dog as a sandwich. We've got new episodes out every Wednesday. New videos out on Sunday. If you want to be featured on opinions or like cast roles, hit us up at 833-DOG-5-1. Leave us a message, sexy. I also think you're sexy. We're both just sexy people. Yeah. Always remember, FB. If you like videos. Front to back. If you like videos of us, check out Mythical Kitchen. We've got a lot of other videos over there. See you all next time.

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