Kara Swisher Explains How The U.S. Was Inches from Economic Collapse, How Big Tech Influences Our Politics, How America Is Trapped in a Cult & Why She Still Finds Hope
01:27:42 Share

The golden age of America begins right now. Is this a constitutional crisis? The reason people come to our country and invest in our country is because we have the rule of law. Now we don't have the rule of law. Is this other side so defensive of the president and the establishment that they have to lie? Yes, that's what they're doing. Because let me tell you, they'll call me and say, what a f***ing lunatic.

And I'm for as much free speech as possible, but I'm also like, if you allow enough really hateful speech to happen, untruth wins every single time. Enragement equals engagement. That's a human condition. When you're angry, you lean in. It keeps you there. It's like drinking or drugs or anything else. It's also a very visceral feeling for humans and especially Americans to have team approach.

We either have to designate what hate speech is. That's a buzzsaw. It depends on who you are. Or tolerate enormous amounts of hate speech that is very deleterious to our national psyche. Can you talk for a moment just how close to collapse we were? The bond markets were about to sink us into a depression. And if America defaulted on their debt? We default, it's over. It's game over. It's depression. It would take a decade to get out of.

Unfortunately, the system we have doesn't anticipate a lawbreaker as president. And so what do you do? You wait him out. And then many years from now, jail all these people for doing what they're doing, which I think is coming at some point. And as long as he is in power and Congress doesn't move to stop him, this is a cult. Before we dive into today's episode, I'm going to ask you to do something very quick, very easy, but super helpful. I'm going to ask you to

Hit the subscribe button. You see it? Go get it. Hit the subscribe button. It just takes a second, but it means a lot to us. You have probably noticed from all of the comments that we get, many people find that listening to MBB regularly is helping them feel happier, healthier, more inspired. And you know what? That actually is why we are doing this. It makes my heart swell to hear that so many of you are feeling inspired. So, so

subscribing to this show, whether you're listening on YouTube or whether you're listening to it through a podcast app, it's the easiest way to ensure that you will never miss an episode.

So we don't want you to miss a single one and you don't want to miss a single one. So you'll get notified as soon as a new episode drops. All you have to do is subscribe and share this episode with someone if you enjoy it. We're trying to spread the word. Help us do that. The best way to support our show is by subscribing. So do it now. Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate you. Let's get back to the good stuff.

Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik. I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. We're going to be breaking down the news cycle today, trying to help us dissect, understand, better come to terms with what's happening. We're trying to give the other side some perspective while seeking, you know, truth with a capital T. We're going to be learning about the ways that we can view what's currently happening in our country in such a fashion that

We don't feel like we're losing our minds. And in many cases, we're going to be breaking down today what are the things we should actually be worried about in terms of the economy, how it impacts us personally, the news cycle and how we interpret it, and the...

ongoing complexity and some might say chaos that has been going on in this current presidency. We're not going to be speaking about this from a partisan perspective, though. We're trying to understand what is practically and actually going on, how can we react to it, and what should we legitimately be concerned about as Americans.

What are the things that make America great? And how do we protect them so that we can still be proud of the country that we call home? We're going to be talking with Kara Swisher.

Once referred to as Silicon Valley's most feared but revered journalist, she's kind of the oracle of the tech world. She's the host of Pivot with Scott Galloway, who we've had on here, and also on with Kara Swisher. She's the editor-at-large at New York Magazine, contributor to a bunch of other news organizations, and her best-selling memoir, Burn Book, A Tech Love Story, details in particular her relationship with Elon Musk and how it evolved. And she's going to be joining us to talk about all things...

news, tech, and politics in ways that we can really understand and wrap our heads around. Break it down. Kara Swisher, thank you so much for joining us on The Breakdown. No problem. Thanks for having me. We're really grateful to have the opportunity to talk to you, largely because so many people are confused about what's happening in this country in particular, and obviously that ripples out to the world. You know, every headline is some version of

words like unprecedented, you know, crisis, verge of collapse, you know. Yeah. And then today, too, with the stock market is really down again. I mean, I literally had to check the news twice between getting dressed and talking to you just to make sure I literally didn't miss anything. And I think that's what a lot of people are feeling. There's this there's kind of

You know, there seems to be some sort of chaos that's just sort of like hovering, you know? It's not hovering. It's the presidency. I mean, that's the problem. I mean, one of the things you think about, there's an expression in tech, who's the adult in the room? You know who the adult in the room is? The stock market. The stock market has decided that Donald Trump is a chaos monkey and doesn't want any part of it. And so he's not going to reward him. So the only one, he's got a room full of people, the cabinet room, who's just lying to him or else believes their nonsense, what they just did, which was unplanned and

I hate to use the word unprecedented with Donald Trump because he always does things. So he just does. He's just chaos monkey is what you have to think. Throwing feces around the world, essentially. And so the Wall Street is not like that. Wall Street just says, this isn't going to make us money. Nobody likes chaos in their lives and their general lives. And Wall Street, absolutely. And same thing with corporate America, doesn't like not to know what's going to happen, what the next thing is going to be. And this red light, green light, and then chaos.

driving us off the cliff thing is just beyond belief. And now he's got the yips. He said everybody was yippy. In fact, he was yippy, and appropriately so, because the bond markets were about to make...

sink us into a depression. If he had not done this and pulled back, although it should have been just remove them altogether so you don't have this uncertainty of whatever 90 days is, we would have been in real trouble with the Treasury bonds and everything else. So first of all, that's helpful as a general framework. But I wonder if you can sort of address kind of right off the top,

Why is what you're saying not simply a partisan argument? Meaning, "I'm mad we didn't win the election. This is sour grapes." Can you explain a little bit why this is not about what party you voted for? Yeah. I mean, you can be angry about the deportations and the grabbing people off the street. That is unprecedented. Well, it's not, actually. It's happened in our country. That's not true. It's happened many times. Unfortunately, we all look back on it and think we should never do that again.

But I think when it comes to money, if you have a 401k, if you have kids in school, if you want to use a 529, if you have retirement, if you just want to buy a house, everybody has a concern in this kind of economic chaos. The issue isn't China. The issue isn't Europe. The issue is overpopulation.

One person decided to do something that was wrong and based on false math and decided to pull this thing when the global order had been doing rather well. And now there are ways to – it's just like the Department of Government Efficiency. Nobody's against a better, more serviceable government. Nobody is against that.

But trying to do this fishing expedition that doesn't really find that much fraud, that isn't really about reform. It's sort of the old Silicon Valley, move fast and break things. But move fast, break things, and then have no plan of fixing them whatsoever. And I think anyone who wants to buy a house, who wants to send their kids to school, who wants to save money,

has to be concerned about this, wants a job, because now companies, they're not going to expand. Why should they? Why should they? Because it's chaotic. And so if you're someone, and say if these treasury, these T-bills went up, the yield went up,

Nobody could borrow money. We could not invest. You wouldn't make a factory right now. If you were thinking of expanding, you stopped thinking of expanding. You also stopped thinking of hiring. You thought about laying people off. And so, you know, I think creating constant chaos may be fine for Donald Trump because that's where he lives in his chaotic head. But for the rest of the country, most people depend on dependability and the rule of law because

without the reason people come to our country and invest in our country is because we have the rule of law. Now we don't have the rule of law or just he just keeps breaking things. And so people will start to make alliances elsewhere. Europe will start to ally with Canada and India and China even. This has been a real opportunity for China and not us because we're not a dependable, lawful place. And so

no matter what your partisan thing, if you seem like a chaos monkey, nobody wants to hang out with you. It's not partisan to say that. So who are the people? And, you know, I keep trying to read, like, I really try and understand, quote, the other side. Do you?

Because I don't want to be, and I remember when Trump was first elected, you know, before we kind of knew fully what might happen in the first term. And my kids were young at the time. And, you know, there was a lot of kind of like jokes among small people who don't know anything, you know, like Trump's of this, Trump's of that. And I said, you know what, guys, this is the president of the United States. Let's just give it a second. I don't want you to be these like, we're liberal.

children and we wave this flag. Let's just give it a second. It didn't take that many seconds for Trump to start using words that I don't allow my kids to use at the dinner table. And then it became clear, OK, we're playing a different game. But even still, I try and see what's this quote other side? Am I just being blinded by, you know, insert? You should. Yes, you should. So when I read the quote other side, you know, I'm reading like economists and I'm like trying to understand it. When you talk about it,

It seems very clear to me, but I wonder if you can try and help us understand what is this other side? Is it that they're so defensive of the president and the establishment that they have to lie? Is that what's happening? Yes, that's what they're doing, because let me tell you, off the record, they'll call me and say, what a fucking lunatic. Like they do. That's the worst part of it. Like, you know, they're sort of like, well, we don't agree with this, but we're going along. And so you can't.

It's a really interesting dichotomy in that none of them... Now, what happened here behind the scenes is the pressure. Even Ted Cruz was breaking away. There was so much pressure from... And Fox News did, which is important to Trump because that's all he watches all day, like my mother. So the Republican administration quietly...

said, cut this out. Like, you're in big trouble. So did big investors. So did companies. I'm sure they said it to him. And then when the bond market started to see what was happening, people don't realize a couple of things. The only thing I would say to you, Republican, Democrat, do you like your money? Do you like your house? Do you like having a job? Like, I do. And I don't, I really don't want to have it screwed up.

because some guy believed in the 1980s that tariffs... He just doesn't know how to do math. I'm sorry he doesn't know how to do math, but I get why he believes it. And there are some problems in tariffs. Of course, there's some advantages that people take. But we have mostly benefited from free trade. The United States of America is the greatest beneficiary of free trade. The problem is we like to consume more than other people.

And so that's a problem the United States has, right? And if we do that, if we want to have cheap goods and if we want to have plastic from China and stuff like that, that's a bigger problem for our country. Should we be buying 500,000 things? Should we have 20 presents under the Christmas tree or whatever holiday you do? It just ends up in men's testicles, apparently, all that plastic. Right, that's true. In everybody's brains, actually. So I think it's just a...

You have to like, you can go and say, okay, we have to have stronger trade agreements. We probably should have, when a lot of these trade agreements were done, we should have thought more about the job, the downstream effects on people's jobs and moving it. But one of the things you have to think about is what kind of country do you want to be from a manufacturing point of view? Do we really want, like Howard Lutnick, who is...

I didn't realize how dumb he is. He's really quite dumb. He's like, we're going to bring Americans back and screw little screws. And we don't want those jobs anymore. The twenty thousand, thirty thousand dollar jobs. It's better to work at McDonald's or Amazon than those jobs. Right. That they do in China. We exported those jobs. And then what we do really well in is information services, consulting, intellectual property, design, marketing. We we are a net.

surplus in all those services who are going to get screwed in this thing. Because they're also, people think of things as tariffs, but it's also services get tariffed.

And we win. We win in technology. We win in services. We win in intellectual property. Foreign students coming here to school, which is a big industry, we win. Now that's done because we're kicking them out, right? That's actually good for the U.S. to have those foreign students in this country, even if they don't like certain things. If they protest, that's the whole point of the United States of America is to protest.

And so one of the things that's important to keep in mind is we want jobs that people make $200,000 at or $100,000, not the jobs that are screwing. Well, any robots are going to do that anyway. So why do we want them back here? Second thing is it takes years and years to build factories to do this, like decades, decades.

We're not going to do that anymore. We have to lean into AI. We have to lean into advanced technologies. We have to lean into stuff like that. And none of this is solved by a trade war. None of this. We're never going to make plastic toys in this country. It is never happening again, ever, like ever. And it's a good thing because we've moved on to better jobs the way Chinese want to move on to better jobs. They don't want those jobs either. But we exported those jobs.

and now have to figure out what are the higher paying jobs that we do well in. And we already are showing that in technology, as I said, services, intellectual property, marketing, design, the higher level. And that's where we should want to be as a country. And that means we need better education. We need retraining. We need all kinds of stuff like that. But nobody

But none of this is addressed because this guy is still living in the 1980s and wants to bring back the factory. Like it isn't coming back and it shouldn't necessarily come back. We should be smarter about what we want our citizens to do for a living.

MindBiotics Breakdown is supported by Symbiotica. If there's anything I've learned so far this year, it's that small habits can make a huge difference. Many of my old habits simply don't cut it anymore, like trying to go to sleep right after watching a super intense violent true crime documentary. That's where Symbiotica comes in. They make choosing healthy habits easy, enjoyable, and something to look forward to. Plus, spring is here. We've got an amazing deal from our friends at Symbiotica. There's no better time to hit refresh on your routines than now.

We recently started taking Symbiotica's Magnesium L3 and 8. It is a must-have for supporting focus and mood. Also, their liquid magnesium packets utilize cutting-edge technology to deliver better absorption for better results. That's a thing. It keeps us feeling our absolute best, and we're big fans of the yummy vanilla cream flavor.

Did you know that in the United States, 65% of adults are deficient in magnesium? Magnesium L3NA is the only form of magnesium that crosses the blood-brain barrier, which makes it the most bioavailable form for the brain. With thousands of five-star reviews, this product speaks for itself. It's the real deal.

All their supplements never contain seed oils, preservatives, toxins, artificial additives, or quote, natural flavors. No unclear ingredients or misleading labels. These are the cleanest, most effective products out there. Feel your absolute best going into spring with Symbiotica, wellness made simple. Go to symbiotica.com slash break for 20% off your order and free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash break for 20% off your order and free shipping. One more time. Symbiotica.com slash break for 20% off your order and free shipping.

Mind Be Alex Breakdown is supported by Quince.

You know, I used to have no idea what to get my mom for Mother's Day, especially when she would say, don't get me anything. But I still want to give her something that feels special, and Quince has solved that for me. Everything's high quality, feels super thoughtful, and it's actually affordable. Now, I don't have to overthink it, I just go straight to Quince. Like cashmere sweaters from $50, 14-karat gold jewelry, Italian leather bags, fragrances, and more, the best part, all Quince items are priced 50-80% less than similar brands.

By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middle person and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. We love that. Just a suggestion, their linen sheet set and linen pajama set stands out to me as kind of a perfect Mother's Day gift. Other similar luxury gift shops just cannot compare to Quince's style, quality, price, and convenience.

Thoughtful, timeless, totally her. Shop Mother's Day at Quince. Go to quince.com slash breakdown for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash breakdown to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash breakdown. Can you talk for a moment just how close to collapse we were with the bond market, you know, and and.

If America defaulted on their debt, which is potentially what could have happened, can you just explain to the average person, like, just how catastrophic that would be? It just, the yields are just what you pay for it. So it went up to 4.75%. It could have gone to 12. It went to 12. It's over. We owe so much money on our national debt. The cost,

It's as if your mortgage rate went up to 100 when it was at 7 or whatever. Everybody knows that. If suddenly you're paying $10,000 over $1,000, it changes your entire budget. You can't afford it, essentially. And so we would default on those. There's no money. There's no money to pay it. And so people, especially the Chinese, own enormous amounts of our treasury bills, right? They are our creditors.

So they could screw us any time by selling these. We take their money and use it to have a deficit, right? Or to give money, a tax break for the rich. We use that money and hand it to someone else, presumably to create industry. It's not true. It's a tax break for the rich. And so we use that money and it's been used and allocated elsewhere. And so the only way to...

Even if we got rid of all the services, we still owe the money, right? It doesn't matter. It's still a debt. And so if it costs more to borrow money, that means everybody is going to cost more to borrow money. And it would have been disastrous. Like you couldn't...

You couldn't borrow money. You just couldn't borrow money. There'd be no capital. One of the great things about this country is the free flow of capital and the free flow of money in our society. And so if you wanted to open a bakery, you couldn't do it. You couldn't afford it. You couldn't afford to open a bakery. You couldn't afford to pay down debt. And so the government is the biggest one with the biggest debt and therefore would have been squeezing out everybody else.

But then they couldn't pay it back. So if the U.S. defaulted on its debt, you know, we're considered to be the most reliable country. People, other countries loan us money so that we can keep going. You know, you hear about the government always trying to raise the debt ceiling. Like, what is the practical ramifications like?

to people going to the ATM and taking cash out and buying things. Hyperinflation. You'd go with a wheelbarrow because inflation would soar because the government would presumably print money

And then we're a really bad third world country who, you know, people go with buckets. That's why, like, a lot of countries got into Bitcoin initially, way back when the hyperinflation of governments doing things like this and defaulting on loans created a situation where capital fled from a country.

And right now you see that happening. European stocks are up, America. Investors are going to Europe. They're going elsewhere to invest their money. Lots of European stocks are killing it right now because it doesn't feel safe here. And then these crazy P-E ratios that a couple of our companies have get killed. And the people that are really carrying the stock market are the technology industry. And therefore, if the technology shares suffer,

If they get a cold, everybody dies. That's really pretty much it. And so everyone always says Wall Street isn't mainstream, but it kind of is. It's all related to each other. And it all has reverberations around capital we raise and what we can do. But we default. It's over. It's game over. It's game over. It's depression. It's nobody...

It would take a decade to get out of, at least, if not longer. I want to go back to some of what you mentioned about the faith that people historically have in what many of us consider, you know, the American dream, right? And in particular, how that relates to, well, many different freedoms, right? And I want to tackle freedom of press,

Because, you know, one of the sort of hallmarks and we had we had Connie Chung on, you know, when she had her memoir out and she's great. And, you know, what she talked about was a really interesting thing, even at the time of reporting on Watergate. She said everyone has their own political agenda.

perspectives and flavors. She said, but what news used to be was an attempt to get at the truth. And while there are angles to that and there are biases to that that are inherent because we're human, she said there was always a fundamental notion of, for example...

If the government is doing something deleterious, news on both sides need to report that equally. And some of the things we've seen, you know, are restrictions on what press is allowed to

Well, like with the AP. Right. Like this is like, you know, bad with a capital B as far as I'm concerned. The notion that you have to call like the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of like, send me to prison. Let my children see that Mayim Bialik was taken to prison because she wouldn't say Gulf of America. Can you talk about what freedom of press? And I think it also relates to kind of legacy media, because I think this is something that we're sort of seeing that that we're kind of all in this like

spiral of. Can you talk a little bit about this? There is some very exciting stuff going on in media. I've been one of the early media entrepreneurs sort of shifting away from legacy media. But explain to people why we need to do that and it's not just either left-wing or right-wing hysteria saying legacy media has a problem.

Well, it has a problem because it's a business problem. It's hard. There's a lot of problems. It's not making what people want to eat. You know, just if you're a restaurant that makes things people don't want to eat, they don't want to eat them. And so the way you're making them, the way you're delivering them is not what people want. And so younger people and actually adults, not just younger people, want their news in different ways. And it's shifted just like it shifted from radio to television, et cetera, et cetera, newspapers, radio to television. That's what's happening. So there's a consumption issue happening. And newspapers for sure didn't pay attention to it. And that's one of the reasons I left the post.

I was like, everyone's going digital, my friends. And so you better figure this out. The second thing is an economic issue, which is that that is now dominated by Google and Facebook, all that advertising. They run the whole gamut. And that's where advertisers have moved away from television, furs, newspapers and stuff like that.

And so everybody finds better ways to market. And so their business is gone, right? So subscribers are gone. The business is gone. I mean, the advertising business. And then something kind of silly with newspapers are classifieds. Classifieds used to be a very big moneymaker. Well, Craigslist came and collapsed it completely. And they collapsed it such that it's never coming back. Like, that's the thing. Like,

Everyone's like, "Oh, we'll do something else." I'm like, "There is nothing else. There's nothing else." So the only other choice you have is to cut costs or find new fresh ways to do media. And lots of people have done that.

I think one of the things Connie was talking about was the idea that, so if your economics are getting kicked out, you can do less and less, and therefore your business dies. It's a kind of a spiral. And so you have to reinvent yourself in a really significant way. And most of the legacy media companies have enormous costs. I mean, you worked in television, you know, the town car, the

the this, the that. Like, you can't have that anymore. It just doesn't... The costs are out of line. Too many executives. I'm sure you've been plagued by executives calling. There's like seven of them. What do they do? I don't know. It's not efficient, right? And so the way Hollywood was operating, for example, and that's a good example, or newspapers was in a high-cost system, but it was high profits. It was high revenues. And then the revenues collapsed, and the profits collapsed, and they still had the system in place.

And so that's really pretty much what happened. The other thing is, as consumers especially got them in different places, they went for the low-cost alternatives. And since news was now flooding the system, it used to be scarce. Now it flooded, and a lot of it is not reliable or fact-checked or anything else. Then you have kind of like shoddy products everywhere, and you don't know where the real stuff is.

And then on top of that, people, especially in the Trump administration, have been suing. They're trying to change the laws around media libel and stuff like that. They're really trying to overturn Times versus Sullivan. And therefore, they can sue people to quiet them, right, out of existence. The settlement with ABC, the attempted settlement with CBS, right?

Even Mark Zuckerberg paid a vig, even though they did nothing wrong, you know, to get him off their back because he could now use the tools of government and also the legal thing to attack politicians.

to attack people, which is why he's also attacking the lawyers so they can't defend you. And therefore, you have no avenue but to settle. And so really, you have an economic and consumer collapse to start with, and then it moves into where we are. But it doesn't mean there's not some really vibrant media stuff going on all over the place and on all sides of the spectrum.

Talk a little bit about the freedom of press issue. Why should people be especially disturbed by the restriction of AP or really any media that any president doesn't like?

Because it's in the First Amendment. It's the first. So it must be the most important. It's the first. It's there. It's short. It's very, it's enshrined in the Constitution that there should be, the government shall make no law that restricts the freedom, among other things. There's a bunch of things in there. But they cannot do this, what they're doing, trying to restrict it. It just says it. It's not even like, hmm, what do they mean? They're very clear. It's very clear what it says. Again, I recommend you read it because it's pretty...

simple. And there's a bunch of other amendments, obviously, that people argue over, but this one's pretty

pretty much what it is. And so it's not, what Trump is doing and what many people have done before that is even if it's in the Constitution, they just do it anyway. And then you have to defend yourself and spend money doing it, right? And so time and money can silence people very easily. The other thing is that we have an idea in this country that media has been fair and balanced, whatever, whatever Fox News wants to say. It hasn't.

Ever. Until Watergate. There was a short time during Watergate when everyone was sort of, it was so explicitly a government corruption that newspapers got, you know, touted as being the saviors. But mostly people have hated journalists since the beginning of our country, beginning of the founding of our country. And it's been very partisan for most, you know, look at, go look at, if you feel like reading anything, listen to the newspapers that back Jefferson versus Adams versus Washington.

they didn't really attack Washington that much, but Jefferson and Adams and Hamilton, they were really ugly. They were ugly and partisan for pretty much until Watergate and in ways that were not as respected as you think they were, for sure. I want to kind of double click on free speech here because

It's boiling over into some very, very uncomfortable intersectional places. And, you know, it's funny because every every couple of months someone will send me this Scott Galloway explanation of, you know, what happened after October 7th. And it's it's one of the most elegant and morally clear, you know, statements about, you know,

About the bizarre, you know, kind of upside down this of many aspects of the conversation about this. However, that being said, this country is is is is founded on and supported by the notion that you are allowed to hate the country.

you are allowed to burn the flag. You are allowed to be extremely upset. You're allowed to protest. My parents were tear gassed. My parents had sit-ins to allow black students into the public school system. I was raised by, you know, the, the, the principles of the civil rights movement and,

And also what Trump is is essentially doing is saying that there are certain kinds of speech that will take your funding away and there are certain kinds of speech that will make people question what.

Can you deport someone for free speech? The answer is no. Can you deport someone? Well, right. So you can. Well, right. Do it. And then you wait for the Supreme Court to act, which will take 150 years. Well, and I wonder if you can sort of help us thread this needle a little bit, because also and, you know, for me and for my community, it's it's a large it's a larger conversation surrounding. Is there a difference between.

hate speech and incitement speech? Is there support for terrorist organizations? And where do we thread that needle? The problem, in my view, is that, you know, in this case, anti-Semitism is being used as a weapon by the Trump administration to kind of act like, oh, we're doing this to protect you when in fact...

It's a real affront to those of us who are true liberals and believe in the values of the Constitution. Can you talk a little bit about this complexity? It's a really difficult problem because people are scared, right? I mean, as a gay person, the same thing. Like when you hear, you know, I'm scared for my family and this and that. And there is a very fine line between hate speech and just you're a fucking asshole, right? You know what I mean? Like, just don't be such an asshole or don't be or you're an anti-Semite or you're a racist. And one of the things we've tried to do in this country is protect people.

from the worst people, right, that say the terrible things. That said, there are some instances where, like I had a very famous back and forth with Mark Zuckerberg many years ago when I was doing an interview with him, and I was talking about Alex Jones, who I think is a heinous piece of shit, who was saying these kids who were killed in Connecticut were child actors, etc., and really tormented these parents. And finally they won in court, but they won because of copyright infringement, not because of free speech, which was interesting.

Anyway, he's not able to pay them, but they won in any case. A bit of an empty victory, but not really. He lost. And so we were talking about that, and my whole point to Mark was, "Okay, you're not the government. You're a private company. You can make rules, right, on your platform, what you want the rules to be, just like a restaurant can, just like anybody else."

And so one of the things he tried to do, and I said, you have these rules on Facebook and he's violated every one. Why hasn't he kicked off? That's all. Why have them? Like, don't have the rules. Why do you have the rules? Like, that was a pretty simple question. And he was, you know, hemming and hawing because he just didn't want to do the rules, essentially, even though he had written them himself.

And so he said, let's switch to the Holocaust. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. That sentence never went anywhere good. No, I know why he did it. I'm sure a PR person, he happens to be Jewish, was like, as a Jewish person, I believe everyone should say what they want. That was where he was going. I happen to be a Holocaust studies minor, so I knew a thing or two. And I was like, OK, let's go there.

And he didn't finish, famously didn't finish college. And so he starts going on and he started to talk about Holocaust deniers on their platform, which there started to be many. And it was, I find that very dangerous if you're running a platform, if you let them go on because real truth mixes with lies and then it gets all muddied. And so...

As a purveyor of information, The New York Times doesn't put that stuff on its front page. As a publisher, you should exercise restraint in terms of people who lie. That's my feeling if I ran the place. And so I pointed out to him that in years to come, if you allow Holocaust deniers free reign and not kick them off, you have a toxic stew that later really manifests itself into anti-Semitism in a massive way. And, you know, it's historically propaganda works that way.

And so he said famously, well, Holocaust deniers don't mean to lie. I was like, wow, they're kind of the definition of liars to me. And they're vicious and malicious. I mean, I appreciate his dipping into subjective truth. You know, that's not exactly what I go to him for. They really do mean to lie. That's their whole goal. And, you know, and I think he was missing the point. He thought he was the government or something. I don't know what was in his very, not very intellectual brain, but

It was really interesting because these are the people in charge of things. And what happened is downstream...

It got ugly downstream. I was worried about what was going to happen later if these people had full access to the biggest news platform on the planet without the people at the top of this news platform having any responsibility for what happened. And the same thing with January 6th, everything else. They just let it go and they're like, "Well, speech will sort it out." I'm like, "But it doesn't sort it out. It makes it worse."

And so I think there's a good debate to be had. So can you talk about what happened downstream? Yeah, downstream, anti-Semitism, which is pervasive in our society since the beginning of time, unfortunately. But it became, when truth mixes with truth,

with untruth, untruth wins every single time. And so you do have to have a very careful analysis. And I'm for as much free speech as possible. But I'm also like, if you allow enough really hateful speech to happen on campuses or wherever, I just think they were just attacking students

When other people do it and they don't get it, they don't, you know, why only focus on students? Why not focus on terrible things Elon Musk says? Why don't focus on this? Why don't you like because it all is I think he has more power than some students at Columbia, honestly, personally.

Miami Alex Breakdown is supported by Thrive Cosmetics. I've really been liking this new makeup trend of lining the top lid with like a bold color, like a yellow or a deep blue. It seems like a simple trick, but it really makes a statement look sleek and professional. Strikes me every time I see it, and I think I might have to try it myself sometime soon. Whether you're all about simple mascara and gloss, or you love to play with bold shapes and colors, there's always a trusty favorite you use for every look.

Thrive Cosmetics makes certified 100% vegan and cruelty-free products you can depend on for everything from simple daily wear to show-stopping self-expression. It's all made with clean, skin-loving ingredients, high-performance and trademark formulas and uncompromising standards. One of the things that I love about Thrive Cosmetics is they give back to a ton of causes that are important to so many of us, like cancer, domestic abuse, homelessness and poverty, racial and social justice. For every product purchased, Thrive Cosmetics donates products and funds to help communities thrive. One of my favorite

Thank you.

Try your new trusty favorites with an exclusive set for our listeners. New customers can get the Liquid Lash Extensions Mascara and a mini-sized Brilliant Eye Brightener at a special set price with free shipping available at thrivecosmetics.com slash mbb or save more with 20% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com slash mbb. That's Thrive Cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S dot com slash mbb for 20% off your first order.

MindBiolix Breakdown is supported by Element. Element helps anyone stay hydrated without the sugar and other dodgy ingredients found in popular electrolyte and sports drinks. Electrolyte deficiency or imbalance can cause headaches, cramps, fatigue, brain fog. Weakness Element is a zero-sugar electrolyte drink mix born from the growing body of research revealing that optimal health outcomes occur at sodium levels two to three times government recommendations.

Each stick pack delivers a meaningful dose of electrolytes free of sugar, artificial colors, or other dodgy ingredients. Element is perfectly suited for athletes, folks who are fasting, or those following keto, low-carb, whole food, or paleo diets. We count on Element to help us replenish electrolytes the quick and easy way Jonathan and his son use it so regularly that every water bottle in the house tastes like Element.

From health experts, everyone from famed Stanford neuroscientists to functional nutritionists to moms, exercise enthusiasts, heavy sweaters, sauna sitters, and those who want a dynamite no sugar margarita or mocktail incorporate Element into their daily routine.

Get your free Element sample pack with any purchase at drinkelement.com slash mayim. Also, try Element Sparkling, a bold 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. Try Element totally risk-free. If you don't like it, they will refund your order, no questions asked. Again, for your free Element sample pack, go to drinkelement.com slash mayim. That's drinkelement.com slash mayim.

Well, it's funny because when the latest Kanye complexity occurred and people were very upset about the Super Bowl. He's a racist. What is the complexity of this guy? I'm saying the variety of incidents happened. That was also the same week that Elon Musk made a very, very bizarro gesture that I think is much more concerning. Can I stop you? Please. That was a Nazi. That was a Nazi gesture.

He was doing a Nazi salute. He was. 100%. I'm sorry. I wish we would stop, like, giving him the benefit of the doubt. He did it to troll us, maybe. I don't know if he's an anti-Semite. I have no idea. He never, you know, I don't know. But certainly, he did it twice. He was clearly what he was doing. He was not doing a Roman salute. I have been in rooms with him where he says, what can I do to really set people off? That's what's in his head. It's not...

It's hateful anyway because it's meant to cause consternation. It's interesting you said that because I have a 16 and I have a 19-year-old, and so we have a lot of these conversations. And I'm much more interested in trying to understand, as part of these conversations, this type of person and what is happening with this type of person.

I just call it this tech bro. - Some of them. - Right, let me just see what I can do to fuck shit up. So I feel like Twitter is a great example

And I think like I didn't understand that Facebook was kind of the same thing because I was so busy thinking about should I still have a Twitter account. Can you please explain a little bit about what we're seeing as the intersection between the power of the tech, you know, kind of sector and.

and how that is actually influencing what we experience and what we are allowed to experience as a free people. Right. Well, Twitter's not real life, right? I had 1.6 million followers on there. I'm not on it anymore. I leave it there because I don't want them to take my name. That's all. It just sits there like an empty lot, essentially. I was quite active as one of the earliest people on there, and I kind of found it interesting to disagree with people. But again, it's the same idea of...

not worrying about the consequences of what the platform you're platforming people if you don't have rules of the road it turns into a nazi porn bar that's what it feels like to me and so i don't really like nazi porn bars as if it was a rule and so i don't go there and so i i think what happens is it degrades real conversation and it pulls people out so i just don't want to physically i don't want to be there mentally or physically i think one of the things that happens is um

People think this is the way people interact and it does bleed. People say it doesn't bleed out into real life, but I think it does bleed out into real life. Right. And so you start to see and Scott's new book is about that. It's called I'm being a man or something. I think that's the title of it.

What is the pattern that people are following of men? Like, for example, I'll just take men for an example. What is the pattern matching? Is it this bullying, hateful, always trying to troll people, you know, acting like you're 12 years, a really badly raised 12-year-old boy when you're 53? Is that what we want out of a man, that more money matters more than...

Being nice, being a bad parent, bad parent to your daughter, who's by all means very witty. Speaking of all the funny that Elon tries to be, his daughter is very funny. You know, you know, that's the kind of thing is what are our patterns and what are our young people looking up?

And if this is heroic behavior, in this case, a 53-year-old acting like a badly raised 12-year-old, I don't think that's a good sign for our world, right? And so, and then it has complete control over this platform. You're going to get that kind of behavior. I think it's troubling that there aren't...

I believe in heroes and people you look up to, and they don't have to be famous. They don't have to be rich. They don't have to be politicians. But I certainly, there are all kinds of, what is the pattern we want, especially in

at this point, young men to look up to because they're the ones that are struggling the most at this moment in time. And honestly, I always think, well, if they're mad, we're all fucked, right? You know, I'm not as worried when girls are fucked, you know, or in a bad mood. I am worried for girls. I have a daughter. But I think it's really important to think about who are our

are many role models that we have in society. And if they're all incredibly negative and get well, the getting's good and hateful, it's problematic for our society in general. What about the incentives of the platforms themselves? You know, we we've heard you talk and debate Section 230. Like, is there a solution? And no.

There's not. No, I mean, enragement equals engagement. That's really, I mean, that's a human condition since, and that will never end. When you're angry, you lean in. You also lean into cat videos. You also lean into all kinds of things. But you definitely get, when you're angry, it keeps you there, right? It's like drinking or drugs or anything else. It keeps you there.

And it's a very visceral feeling. It's also a very visceral feeling for humans and especially Americans to have team approach. Like, I'm on this team. This is my team. So that's why you see a lot of the wearing of hats and the wearing of T-shirts. Hats particularly are a real – nice hat you have, by the way. But, you know, it's a communications – like, it's communication.

kind of what the colors you're wearing and stuff like gangs are like that, football teams are like that. And so I just think it's, the problem is Section 230 was designed to protect these companies when they were young to be able to grow because they would have been sued out of existence. And now they have no liability.

But removing it is sort of like removing the heart. You really can't take it out now because they would be sued out of existence. So what is a way to have these companies have liability that they justly deserve and go to court and have their day in court, positive or negative, without...

absolutely decimating these businesses. And so that's the difficulty of it because they want to pretend they're platforms and not publishers. I contend they're publishers and platforms at the same time. And that's really hard. I don't have a solution for this because we either have to say, just designate what hate speech is, which of course then that's a buzzsaw, right? It depends on who you are.

you know, or tolerate enormous amounts of hate speech that is very deleterious to our national psyche. I mean, smaller platforms have tried to have algorithmic transparency where the user can control the weight. And that seems in theory to be a possible option. But also then you're asking people to engage in a way that they probably won't. Like, are they going in and manually adjusting their settings and asking to be shown both sides of things? And then

Or you create products, right? Different products that are successful. I just think it's very hard to beat anger and teamness and...

fear. I think fear is a really big motivator. And a lot of these things, you know, I don't know how old your kids are, but, you know, the stuff around teen girls is really disturbing, all the statistics, what's going on around self-esteem. It's very hard to look away. The problem is a lot of this is addictive. It's all addictive. I mean, a lot of it, all of it. So it's addictive. It's a product that's addictive, necessary for your job and your social life.

And it's endless. And so it's worse than drugs, right? There's only one other industry that calls its audience users, which is drugs, right?

And in drugs, you don't need for your work, right? You just like them or you happen to like them. So it's a really difficult thing. You cannot unplug from the digital world because of the way we have designed our world. And it's necessary. And so you're necessarily attached to an addictive and often angry medium. And that's problematic. So...

I'm on board with this analysis, right? And there are certain things that I, as an individual, or if I'm speaking for other people, like I can limit my time on these platforms. I can remove my account from, let's say, I could not have an X, no, but I could not have an X account. I can go to, you know, blue sky where all the liberals are and we can all talk to each other. But

But for me, like, what I really want, like, as a human being, is to not have to think about any of this fucking shit. And then what happened is that I see Elon Musk, who I just don't want to think about him. Yeah, me neither. And he's now literally, he's in the White House in ways that I... How do you think I feel? I moved to D.C. and now he's here. Like, I moved away from him. He followed you. Maybe he followed you. So I feel very, I feel very...

confused, conflicted and upset. And generally, you know, it's not contributing. So tell me, what are you most confused about that? The richest person in the world gets unlimited access because of his money. What's the, or he's an asshole or what? I mean, for me, there are certain things that I want kept separate.

And I'd like rich asshole dudes who, you know, allow Nazi porn bars to be their business, you know, and to feel like the most important person in the world because everyone thinks that that's the goal. And that's the other disturbing thing is that I know many, many men who love this. And it seems like a lot of the country is still super kind of into this. So...

No, not the statistics. That's actually not true. Okay, but I like to keep that separate. So to me, what I don't like is that he had some sort of maybe disproportionate role in getting who, quote, he wanted into the White House. That feels weird. And I understand voting is always about which party has more money. And I get it. It's all fake. But now this person that I didn't want to think about and really wanted elsewhere is now like...

He's there, he's doing weird things, he's being given responsibility that, I'm sorry, I was raised to believe that government people work in the government. And okay, Ronald Reagan was an actor, but then he became a politician. But this is not a man I want in the White House doing things and eliminating studies of biological diversity because it accidentally had the word diversity and someone searched the word diversity. And I blame Elon Musk for that. So,

What is happening? Why is he there and what am I supposed to do about it? Why is he there? Well, you know, rich people have always been there. You just don't see them and they're not so thirsty for attention and it's so badly raised that they are desperate for a hug almost constantly. I mean, this stuff is deep with this guy, obviously. But...

Like, I care. I don't give a fuck. Get a therapy and move along. But one of the things you have to realize, this is not a new fresh thing of rich people pulling levers, right? He just does it explicitly and rather...

He's also going through some things in front of us, and none of us are interested in the things he's going through, right? Obviously, there's a lot happening here. You mean like we're watching some sort of mental collapse? Well, you know, you didn't really know. I guess I don't know who the head of Lockheed was, but they were there when

manipulating the president, we just didn't see it, right? They didn't feel the need to make themselves the center of attention. So we've got someone who has a real problem in desperate need of attention, obviously. I mean, come on, you don't even have to try hard. Someone who constantly has to be on camera and has to be talking and never stops talking.

with the most money in the world and therefore is ubiquitous and won't go away. Just how can we miss you if you won't go away kind of thing. And so, and unfortunately, and I'll tell you, Trump people don't like him either. Like I get calls all the time, but Trump does. So that's all that matters, right? Trump likes him and Trump likes a whole manner of,

Like, you know, it's like a panoply of Star Wars cantina characters over there. Right. And so you remember Omarosa? She was there for a while. Like, come on. Like, this guy really enjoys strange characters hanging around him at all times. And so so the problem is Donald Trump likes him. And the way we've set up the presidency is if the president likes someone, they stay and there's nothing's going to happen until then.

Donald Trump says go away. Now, this Wisconsin loss was interesting because when Elon's not next to Donald Trump, you can like or dislike Donald Trump, but he is popular with the people he's popular with. Like, let's be clear. Maybe not this week. I'll tell you, probably isn't so much this week. And we'll see what happens in the cult.

But they don't like him by himself. They don't like Elon by himself, that's for sure. He spent a lot of money in Wisconsin and he lost really badly. And so there is a limit to the powers of everyone except Donald Trump, right, who seems to defy gravity most of the time on lots of issues. Certainly has nine 2090 lives, you know, kind of thing in terms of coming back.

So I think one of the problems is it's explicit. The corruption is explicit. The incompetence is explicit. The grandiosity is explicit. And it feels like you're in the middle of a game show or some weird... Remember the movie Network? Yeah.

It feels like we're living in that right now, right? It feels like we're in Squid Game. We're in a combination of, like, Squid Game and a little bit, like, Lost, you know, and a little bit, like, Stranger Things. Like, a little bit Cuckoo Pants. But it is a celebrification of our politics in a way that, you know, John F. Kennedy was a celebrity politician, probably. So was FDR, you know, so was Teddy Roosevelt. It was not a new, fresh thing for our chief executives to be like that. But one of the things that we...

There's an idolatry, and Scott and I have talked about this a lot, the idolatry of innovators, even if they aren't so perfect. Look, there's all kinds of problems at Tesla. Today, there was a series of stories about OSHA violations at Tesla. Many car companies have violations, but they really go to town on lots of them. But we still have idolatry of rich people and idolatry of innovators.

of innovators as if they know everything. And so what happens is because they're good in one thing, rockets, cars, and by the way, Tesla's not doing so well, so he needs to get over there and be better at cars again. But because they're good in one thing,

They're good enough. They know about Ukraine because they're good in making a social network. They know all about how we should treat our gay and lesbian kids. They don't. That's the problem. And so we we idolize innovators and we decry experts like that's what's really kind of troubling people who actually know what they're talking about. We think less of them and we.

And whatever Elon Musk says, well, he must know. He has $300 billion. Not anymore. He has less than that today. He has $290 billion. He must know. He must, you know, he's got to have the answer. Well, he's not a good parent. That's clear. He's not a good, you know, I mean, he's not good at lots of things. And I think that's...

He's not good at not making Nazi salutes. Right. That's a Nazi salute. Please just say it's a Nazi salute. You of all people know what that was, right? Come on. Don't give him the benefit. Why give him the benefit of the doubt? No, I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt. What it was was that I didn't see it. I heard about it and I was like,

This can't be a thing. You saw it then. And then I watched it and I was like, holy Toledo, that's clear as day. And then my younger son was like... He did it twice. Right. My younger son was like, people said that he was stimming because he's on the spectrum. My younger son's like, that's not what's happening. I was like, no, no, no. I know lots of people with his issues around autism. None of them randomly make Nazis. All my friends who are autistic were like, we don't do that. I was like, no, you don't. And if you did, I'd smack you one. So it was... He's just... But I do believe...

I do believe he was fucking with people. Yes, correct. I think he's... Listen, his grandfather, stone-cold anti-Semite. Doesn't mean he is. Don't know. But certainly he's anti-Semitic. He's anti-Semitic enough to do it. That, to me... Well, I think he's clueless enough to not understand... Well, no, my feeling is there...

There are many people who are doing outrageous things that may not fully believe in the philosophies. I don't believe that he's a card carrying member of the Nazi party and that he has to be. No, the damage is done.

To me, if you know that this causes pain to people, that means you're a cruel person, right? If you know that it leads to people to become more anti-Semitic, why do it? Now, I draw the line at comics sometimes, who sometimes go way over the edge. I think they do. But I'm like, let them just do it. When it's very clearly comedy...

As much as I might hate some of it and think it's hateful. And I've had lots of, I interview comics a lot. And some of the comics are like, why be hateful? Some of them are like, I should be able to say what I want. I see that happening. But in a public figure who's in the administration, they might show some judgment there.

and feel like they're here for all americans and to go out of their way not to be cruel and that's what's not happening here is they think they want to pleasure themselves around trolling more than they want to be a decent person i think not caring meaning not caring what other people think which you're right it's like the most annoying forgive me 12 year old boy um and really through you know it's that like i don't give a fuck and i'm gonna do what i want anyway or

Or even, you ever have a friend that goes, I don't mean to be a bitch, but... And I'm like, stop with but. You're a bitch, and I don't want to hear it. Like, that's... How many of us have heard that? I don't mean to be a bitch, but... Kara, you do interview a lot of comics. Just briefly, can you talk about the role of...

of them pointing out the absurdity. I've heard you say sort of late night is getting the most right when it comes to just how absurd things are. Yeah, all comics. I do all kinds. I'm actually about to do some more right wing ones because some of them are very funny, I have to say. They're never expecting me to. They're like, lesbian from San Francisco. I'm going to offend them and I never get offended. I'm like, I work with Scott Galloway. I don't get offended, my friend. But I think...

I think it's really important. Comedy has always been an important part of every society. You know, in our society, Mark Twain, there's all kinds of people, you know, that have done amazing comedy over the many years. And I always think satire is one of our strongest arrows in our democracy.

whether it's Thomas Nast with cartoons, whether it's Herb Block at the Washington Post, whether it's comics, Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, to this day, the GOAT, as far as I'm concerned. And everything he does now resonates today. It's astonishing how he's so topical, but he's not. That's one of the ways I recommend you go back and listen to some of his sets.

I just find them incredibly wise as people. They go to the heart of things. They're almost like poets. They get to the essence of the problem. And even things like New York Times Pitch Bot on Twitter and X and threads, I love it because it's so funny. They do fake headlines in New York Times that are so on fucking point.

I just interviewed the owner of The Onion. I love The Onion. I was going to say, we're living in The Onion. Yeah. I love The Onion. That guy, he's this little billionaire. He's not the biggest billionaire, but he's a billionaire. And he saved The Onion from death. And I just love that. I think it's really important because even if you're

Unless you're completely devoid of a sense of humor, even a right-wing person, if they hear something, a joke about Trump is like, you know, he's going to, what was it? He's going to not run for a third term. He's going to run for a fourth Reich or something like that or a third Reich or something. It was so funny. And I said it to my mom and she laughed. So I think it always, it gives people a chance to reflect without feeling like they're going into their crud.

corners. And it's hard to be mad when you're listening to a comic right away. And it's even harder to be offended, although many people are. I just don't like it when it becomes unnecessarily cruel or extended. Then it's just mean. Then it's just mean. I had a real issue with Dave Chappelle and trans people, not because I don't mind a trans joke. I love him. I love his lesbian jokes. But if he did an hour and a half of them and only on that, you're like, OK, can we...

I get it, I get it. That's my only issue is the length and breadth of the comedy that's coming at you. That's my only issue. - It's interesting you mention this because I was talking with Jonathan. I'm a standup connoisseur. This is my thing. I listen to kind of every standup. I'll listen to it in different languages with the subtitles. I'm fascinated by this form of entertainment and commentary.

And what I've actually noticed, and I'm not going to name names, is several comics that generally do men who do kind of toe that line of like, it's brash, it's this. What I have noticed is a definite shift in.

in the boldness with which we have returned to what many would just say is racism, misogyny, and homophobia. So I said to Jonathan, like, I'm seeing this ripple out. I'd like to believe that most people don't want that. And then I'm seeing very large Netflix specials where it's kind of like, oh, because they're laughing about it, I'm supposed to be okay with it, or because they talk about

their wife's IVF. Like, I'm supposed to feel sorry that, like, they went through that. And therefore, and I'm having a little bit of a challenge with it because I'm this, like, I'm supposed to be not able to be easily offended. And yet I can't help but connect it to what's going on in the White House. I can't. Yeah. No, it's not funny because it does have an effect. I just, all I'm saying is I give them more of a birth than the president. I think the president of the state should have a decorum. I'm sorry. I just think they should.

Comics, look, I feel like, is that funny or is it not funny, right? That's really what it is. And if you have to get, I did a great interview with Julie Louise Dreyfuss, who I think is one of our legendary comedians. And she's like, why do you have to have cheap jokes to win? That shows you're lazy and stupid. Why do it? Why be cruel? You can be funny and clever and

without doing, you know, you're sort of back in the era of having young men or, you know, I remember Andrew Dreyfus Clay, who I actually was funny in parts and other offensive in other parts. Why go for the fag joke, right? You know what I mean? Like, why do that? And so I've had really good discussions of Michelle Bateau, I just had, who's wonderful. She's like, it's just lazy and stupid. It means you're stupid and lazy. And so I kind of

At the same time, certain groups and all groups, not just certain groups, all groups can be easily offended. You know, as a lesbian, there's so many lesbian jokes. I just want a funny one. Like, make it fucking funny if you're going to make it, but just don't do the you-ha, la-la. Try a little bit fucking harder. Like, you know, which is...

I think that's what it is. It's laziness and stupidity, and it's a cheap laugh. And that's what I think has returned is a lot of cheap laughs. But I don't think that stuff lasts. Our greatest comics are the George Cogs. They're such good thinkers. I just did Josh Johnson at Cooper Union in New York. I did a live interview with him. What a young man. He's in his 30s. Just a tremendous comic. His jokes are so long and complicated, but...

And he's thriving. So I do think a lot of really Mike Birbiglia, Michelle is great. Desi Lydic, there's all kinds and they're real thinkers. And I just think they will prevail over stupid shock jocks.

But now David Portnoy is a Democrat again, so who knows? Talk us through a little bit more of what many see as a constitutional crisis. Can you kind of hone in a little bit on the deportations and what's going on? What kind of deportations are OK? What kind are not? What should we be disturbed about? And why is this something that we really should be concerned about?

You know, let's be clear: Obama and Biden also did deportations. Like, let's not pretend they didn't. I think the issue is the due process part of it, right? The due process, and it makes sense — a sensible position would go, like, why were — I understand the Venezuelans sent to El Salvador with this guy who runs El Salvador, who was a former club owner, whatever.

It's basically Guantanamo. We're just paying for it there, right? That's what's happening there. I think due process is the difference here, is that if you're in this country illegally, we should, by the way, Congress has abrogated its responsibility to create sensible conditions.

immigration laws, right? We've always had issues around immigration, whether it was Irish, whoever came over, you know, over the many, many Italian, my family was Italian, we came over all kinds of difficulties, all kinds of racism, all kinds of behaviors that are similar, not the same, but similar.

Everybody's family is an immigrant here in this country, really, except for the Native Americans who are here. And so one of the things that is happening here is it's just unduly, again, the same thing, unnaturally cruel, capricious,

ignoring due process and putting people... Why would you grab people off the street and then just put them in a Salvadoran prison if they're not... I think most Americans can get that. What did they do? Nothing. And you just sent them to a prison. And so I think that's what's happening here. And then when judges rule against you, ignoring them. Like that to me is what's happening here that's very different. I don't think that we haven't...

I think we didn't listen to people who lived in our border states enough in terms of the difficulties they were facing, as much as I thought it was cruel for Southern mayors to send immigrants up north.

It does make you like you have to we have to figure this out as a country to understand. I thought it was a cruel way to do it. But I understood. I have a lot of friends living in those border states, a really difficult situation. And it's not because immigrants are more prone to crime. They're not. It's not because we don't have jobs. We do like that need to be done. It's that we have to, like, figure out a way to be.

I'm the Emma Lazarus type of person, is that we open our doors to people. And the more people we can bring in, the better, and the better our country is, to me. And so I think it really lies at the heart of Congress, a lot of this. And then Trump is just running over it with his lawlessness, which is, again, goes back to what we talked about with Wall Street. It's lawlessness. And that makes us a less good country.

What happens when the executive branch doesn't abide by court rulings and or the Supreme Court? Does the law just not matter anymore? It's happened before, as you know. Andrew Jackson didn't ignore the rulings on Native Americans and just didn't do it. He said, let them enforce it himself. Unfortunately, the system we have doesn't anticipate that.

a lawbreaker as president, right? That's the problem. And so what do you do? You either wait them out and then many years from now jail all these people for doing what they're doing, which I think is coming at some point if they continue to break the law that we're doing it. Or there's nothing to be done. No one anticipated someone like this, unfortunately. He can do this. And as long as he has

is in power and Congress doesn't move to stop him, which, and abrogates its responsibility. I mean, I don't know about you, but Mike Johnson looks like a lapdog to me. Like, he doesn't seem to want to exercise the power that our founding fathers gave him. Like,

I don't there's nothing to be done. If this is a cult, there's nothing to be done about it. And or if they're scared or whatever. By this definition and explanation, if it's a cult, if there's nothing to be done, what prevents Trump from seeking a third term? And we've been told to believe him when he continues to say he's serious about something. He can try.

I mean, look, we've had these issues in our country many, many times. They can try. We certainly, you know, a lot of people, this is a terrible time. It really is. There's a number of terrible times in our country's history. But we had McCarthyism. We got through that. We got through it.

We did. We had the Civil War. We got through that. You never heard of the Whiskey Rebellion? It was touch and go for our country during the Whiskey Rebellion, right? And that was just about taxes. That was just a tax revolt, essentially, which was interestingly put down by Alexander Hamilton, sent by George Washington. So we have been through things like this where people, you know, Nixon, like, we got through it. We got through it. And so...

My hope is that this is a particularly pernicious person who really does believe in autocracy, right? And my hope is that our country is so diverse and it is such a diverse country that we can push this off eventually. But there will be a lot of damage in the interim. Look, we did the Japanese internment camp. When you think about that,

It's just astonishing. We did that, but we did it. We did it.

We did it. We put people in Franklin Delano Roosevelt did it like kind of thing. So Wendell Wilson, all kinds of anti-Semitic behavior from him. Right. Like with the people we didn't bring into this country during the before with Nazi Germany, who we rejected to come here to save them, save their lives. I mean, unfortunately, we've been through these kind of things. It's just it's never really there's never been such an egregiously lawbreaking president as this one.

So what I hear is you have hope in law abiding citizens coming together and actually returning the rule of law to some degree. I have hope that you don't know the end of the story yet. And there's always another story. I just don't. I don't. We're not going to have pain happening. I, you know, the problem is we have all these.

all this fiction and all this sci-fi about the way it's going to be. The Handmaid's Tale has its sixth season, right? Apparently it's going to end up on Hope in the end. And we've been through some shit on that show. I just do. I'm a believer. One of my favorite plays is Angels in America and the last line, the world always spins forward. I believe that. I do. The other thing is, I don't know if you have kids. I have four kids. I have to believe in the future. I have to believe in a future where they have freedoms that I've had.

But I haven't had every freedom for years. I couldn't say I was gay. Like, I couldn't. Just couldn't. And I couldn't get married and I couldn't have kids. But now I can. And so I really believe the world spins forward even if it spins backwards sometimes. So I think in the act of having children, you're saying you believe in the future. That's my feeling. That's my belief.

reason for having kids. Well, mine are 16 and 19 and I'd like to put them back in. I had hope. Oh no! Don't say that. I have a 19 year old. He's great. I have four of them. And so I really believe in the future. Right? I really do. I had more after I had older kids. And so I just feel like we just can't

This can't be the end of the story. That's all. It just won't be. It won't be. And I think there's lots of people who think that. And we are in a cult situation with this guy. And he is compelling and he is interesting and he is an important political figure. And 100 years from now, they will study this guy forever. But he definitely has supporters and we have to figure out a way to get them involved.

out of the cult. I don't know. It is a cult. My mother hated Trump, now loves him. Now she hates him again, which is interesting. She's lately like, I don't like him so much anymore. I'm like, why? He goes, well, he's, you know...

The money, it was money for her. Her stock market thing has gone down. But I do think people wake up from these delusions eventually, after a lot of pain, unfortunately. And that's the part people aren't going to like. And the ones that are suffering right now don't like it at all. Poor, you know.

All over the country. Well, thank you so much for your time and also for bringing back the possibility of mock turtlenecks. If nothing else, there is hope.

Isn't it? It's from the 80s. And I was like, I haven't learned this since college. You know, if nothing else, let's have hope that it's coming back. Thank you for noticing it and insulting it. I agree with you. But I tell you. I genuinely like it. Do you? I know. I was like, oh.

I haven't worn this since like 1985. Yeah. That kind of thing. I thought it was a conscious choice. No, I moved. I'm renovating my house. We moved back in and everything's in boxes. And it was the only clean. I have a lot of very beautiful Lululemon sweatshirts, the whole nine yards, real soft. And this is like, I think I bought it when it was called The Gap. Yes, I was going to say that was called The Gap.

It's a The Gap shirt. It's got a pocket. It's got a pocket. The whole thing. I thank you for noticing, my beautiful. I'm going to get my clogs out next. Thank you so much. We really, really, we're so, so grateful to you for talking with us and breaking some of this down. Thank you. The thing about Kara Swisher.

She has hope for the future. No, that's not what I was going to say. She has the most depressing way of creating hope for the future. Meaning in the process of her describing how hard it is and historically and we're going to be studying this and it's going to be a lot of damage and bodies will be laying in the street. Yeah.

But it won't be like that forever. It's like she might as well have been like a biblical prophet. That's what the prophets were like. They were like that women will be eating their own children. There will be sorrow throughout the land. Like beasts will be like feasting on their children. But God will save us eventually. I don't know. Eventually we will all be saved or we will be dead. You know, the entire time that we were talking to her, I had this kind of like running, this running thing in the back of my head is...

I hope people of all political perspectives can listen to someone like this. Not because I think she's right or that you have to believe her. But the way that she is trying to talk to us is, I think, the way people on both sides should be trying to talk to us. Meaning...

You can have difference of opinions about policies and about if you believe in Social Security and how you feel about poor people and why you think people use drugs and get pregnant. That's not really what we're talking about here. If we're talking about kind of fundamentals of understanding drugs,

What the United States represents in the world, what our Constitution is established to do, and how we can understand that, I don't need to bend the rules. Like, I don't need to change the definition of free speech because the current president doesn't like that people won't say Gulf of America. Like, that's just basic stuff. So...

Yes, she definitely has a particular perspective, but the analysis to me is what's more interesting than do I agree with her or not? I think the analysis is interesting. I also like the historical context to say we've been in these places before. There have been governments that have ignored court orders. It's not.

Yes, it feels unprecedented, but it actually isn't. We've come through these cycles and that historical context, I think, makes it a little bit less precarious. It's not that it isn't serious, but that we've been able to come out of these cycles in the past. I think what.

She brought up two points that I think are significant. And one is that this is happening amplified in real time in ways that we never anticipated and which we cannot put back in the bottle in terms of social media, the access to media, the access to information and.

the, the combination of that then being what is in the white house. So we kind of have this like double whammy of, we have so much more information that can be available and also manipulated. And it has a direct connection now to what's going on in the white house. But, you know, she mentioned, um, she mentioned Manzanar and this is, this is one of those things that if you don't know about it and you learn about it, it,

Like it it floors you that in this country we took citizens of this country and we put them in forced camps like we we forced Japanese Americans to go live in barracks like that happened. And there was no social media to broadcast it. So a lot of people didn't know that it was happening.

But the notion that that is, I mean, among the many stains on our country's history, that's one that happened pretty recently that is very, very uncomfortable once you know about it because you have to then have this framework of what is this country that I love? What does it stand for? And how do I keep that going? So when you see all these things happening,

it should disturb you. And if you're one of these people who's like, people who are anti-Semitic need to be deported without due process, I'm sorry, that's not what this country's about. That's not why we're here. That's not why the Constitution exists. And you don't have to like any of it, but that's just true. You don't get to say because you don't like that someone's anti-Semitic that they get to be deported without due process. That's not how it works in America. Yeah, there's a fine line between

Having a belief system in causing lawlessness or breaking the law. I'm not talking about breaking the law. I'm not talking about supporting propaganda of terrorist organizations. I'm not talking about Qatar funding activities on our campuses with a very, very specific purpose that we know about. I'm not talking about that. I'm saying...

A student on a campus in America should not be afraid to go to a protest and say, I don't like the policies of this country. We cannot function that way. And we cannot have that fear. And you can't have that fear. I can't have that fear.

And yet everything feels so like upside down and crazy that it feels like a lot of people who otherwise have good intentions are absolutely being influenced by what's going on in the White House to think that their particular opinion can trump the United States Constitution. And guess what? Even if I would even if I would agree with you, it can't. This also goes to the tech platforms and what is happening.

a lie, what is truth, what is a lie, and the danger of that being subjective. While we think Holocaust deniers should not be given a platform, as soon as you say, well, that is a lie, then what else is a lie? Is this medical treatment

Totally safe? Well, if you say otherwise, then that's a lie. So look, the Holocaust gets a separate category, historically. It gets a separate category in the same way that the N-word is a separate category. There are certain things that just don't follow the rules of other things, and that's just the way it is, right? So I think that the notion that you have unregulated...

Media platforms, right? Unregulated media platforms that indeed are encouraging a type of information and the defense being some like twisted version of free speech is.

speech is erroneous. It's wrong. And the same kind of moral clarity I have about not believing in the death penalty, I have about this. I'm not confused here. This isn't like, oh, maybe I should this, that. And you don't have to, you can believe in the death penalty. That's fine. I have complete moral clarity about the reason that we don't kill people as a form of punishment. Like, I'm very clear about it. And I think that's the kind of moral clarity that

especially as a woman, I'm sometimes afraid to have about these things. Like, oh, what if I'm wrong? What if Elon's right? And like, oh, he's so rich and he's so smart and he knows all these things and I don't know all these things or all these men on these platforms. But you know what? Like, what if I felt as clear as Kara Swisher about it? That like, it's not okay to have platforms that amplify things that are disgusting, hateful and damaging, right?

It's your responsibility as the head of that platform to have some form of regulation. And if you don't, don't be surprised that people call you a Nazi porn bar.

It's like hashtag Nazi porn bar. I love that you're just hearing that as the phrase for the first time. I never heard that. It's been around. You got to listen to more of Scott and Kara's podcast. Oh, it's their thing. That's where, I mean, that's where I heard it. Yes, I agree with you. And it's a very slippery slope to say what is offensive. That's what Kara would say. It's not slippery. No, it is. It is. Because what ends up happening is that one,

one person or an agency decides, wait a second, this term is offensive. And some people say it's not. While you can have moral clarity on the Holocaust, it ends up setting... And I'm not saying we shouldn't have it for the Holocaust. Maybe that is a protected area. But very quickly it becomes, well, this is also protected. And this core group of people think that a certain term is also protected and that is off limits. And we just start adding and adding and adding. And then you get to a point where Facebook...

says, oh, the government was calling them directly and saying they have an initiative and they have to make sure for whatever reason that they censor

specific information, and it isn't historical, and the information isn't totally available yet. So while I agree with you theoretically, in practice, what happens is a very slippery slope where someone else is deciding what is true and what is not. And I think the problem that you're articulating is extremely complex. There are not really any...

fantastic solutions to this problem. When we asked Cara, well, should you be able to sue a platform if it's promoting misinformation that is clearly identified as lies, hurtful? No. So this is where I think it gets complicated. It's not about what's hurtful.

Plenty of things to me are hurtful. When people say that they don't believe that someone should be allowed to use the pronouns that they want, I find that very hurtful, right? Do I think that that should be illegal to say? No, right? Rage inducing. I mean, I'm induced to rage. Look, I'm a, you know, 49 year old woman. I'm induced to rage like on the daily. I think that there are different distinctions that we need to become more comfortable with that are not as...

as blurry. And I think that they're not. I have to let a certain level of this go. When I see people saying like, oh, all these people protesting, you know, America's funding of Israeli military, when people are like, deport them all. Like, that's insane to me, right?

I think it's important to make a distinction between things that are irresponsible, right, which Kara is sort of defining Holocaust deniers. It's an irresponsible thing to platform and things that are hurtful or rage inducing. And I think that's sort of the constitutional conversation that we're also having. I do not believe that the president or the government is allowed to say that

I don't like how universities are dealing with protesters and we're going to withhold funding. It's a different thing for the government to say, you know, is there a, is there an institutional problem that needs support, but not just blanketly making the American public believe that if you protest, you don't get funding from the government. It's actually not that simple, but that is the narrative that we're kind of all living under now. My, my,

This has been an episode about trying to not ignore the news cycle. Sometimes we say we have to take news breaks.

There has been an overabundance of news. It's been hard to follow. That's why we did this episode today. How do you, as a person who you are, meaning that you're aware, but you try not to be clicked to the news cycle to avoid that rage-inducing activity, how do you stay aware, know what's happening, but also take care of your mental health?

This is a hard one because I think that I'm grateful to people like Kara who got their finger on the pulse of what's happening. I'm grateful to, you know, as Mr. Rogers would say, the helpers. Like, I can't necessarily do all of this, right? But thank God there are... I mean, you know, I know lawyers who deal with deportation cases who have been fighting for decades to protect people who are...

you know, deported against the rule of law. So I'm grateful that there's other people kind of handling it. But I'll be honest, like on the daily, I can't handle the volatility that has been occurring in

in the current presidency. And if he was a Democrat and doing these things, I'd say the same. I don't need to know this much. I don't want to know this much about what's going on in the White House. I don't, you know, I remember when I saw some, I don't know if it was memes or whatever, about like Elon Musk with a chainsaw. I was like, well, that's funny. I didn't realize it was based on a real thing. You know, like it's, this is so beyond me.

What and I don't find it amusing. And I think that's part of it. If you can find this amusing, if you have the ability to do that, if you cannot have your blood pressure, you know, get raised by all means, have a good time. But yeah, I can't I can't be part of it. Like, I just can't. I can't keep up.

The continued theme is due process. It's not that we don't want some government reform. It's not that we don't want to get corruption out of the government. It's not that you don't want to find waste, but there's nuance in how to do it. And I think the insensitivity of a chainsaw

cutting people's livelihoods and moving them out of jobs, even if there should be moved out of jobs, is very difficult. Like that's that's a traumatic experience for someone who has to go figure out how to support their family. Yeah. I mean, just just in the week that we were recording this episode, I've heard of several people experiencing layoffs. You know, a lot of this stuff is is hitting people very, very hard. And, you know,

You know, what I feel hopeful for is hopefully some ability and, you know, to pull away from, quote, legacy media so that we can start getting information that does feel more like what news should be. Should be reporting what's happening and not what people believe.

are essentially funding to have us believe is happening. Thank you, everyone, for joining us for this episode. If you haven't already subscribed, please do so on the YouTube channel. Click the bell notification or subscribe anywhere you get podcasts. And make sure to check out On with Kara Swisher and Pivot. And if you want to read...

a fascinating history of Kara Swisher's kind of journey through all of this, in particular in the tech world. Read Burn Book, a tech love story, from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's my and Bialik's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down.