The Psychic Who Hunted U.S. Government Targets With Her Mind & How You Can Train Your Mind For ESP And Remote Viewing
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I could see myself leaving my body. I would look down and I would be laying on the bed and then I would just fly. I could walk through doors. I could go through windows. I would go outside. I like to be up in the trees. I could see beings that maybe don't live on earth. I was getting a lot of information on my deceased relatives.

At what point did you reveal to the government that you have psychic abilities that allow you to leave your body? The Defense Intelligence Agency, the sister of the CIA, were looking for people that had these abilities. The remote viewers, the psychics. I got approached to be part of the project.

It was highly classified. A lot of people don't know this or might find it really unbelievable that the government was using these techniques and also teaching these techniques. Intelligence is nothing more than collecting information. People in the intelligence field, they just love information. They don't care how you get it. Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik. I'm Jonathan Cohen. Welcome to our breakdown.

Well, folks, it's taken a lot of episodes, but we have done it. We have arrived at an episode that is, I would say, the most validating and legitimate example of the understanding of extrasensory perception. Why do I say that? Because we're talking to someone who worked for the intelligence community,

for the government and for the military for over 32 years. And for nine of those years, she was employed in a program of remote viewing. That's right. Looking at things in your mind that you are not standing in front of. I mean, I don't even like we usually ask questions at the beginning of an episode. Like, what if we were about to blow your mind? What if we were about to

have you hear cases that were solved from a woman being placed in a room with a government supervisor saying to her, "Where is this criminal?" and her producing an answer that found a criminal that had been missing for a decade. It's kind of what is gonna happen today. We talk a lot about extrasensory ability from Thomas Campbell episode to Jim Tucker.

who studied the evidence, scientific evidence of past lives, to Deepak Chopra, who talks about the hardest problems in science and how we're developing our understanding of what the universe is made of. Here, what we're doing is we're exploring the fact that we potentially have more than five senses and that this isn't an esoteric change your consciousness through drugs. This information is available

Outside of our current five senses and it can be accessed and applied in very practical ways. I should also mention that Angela is a person who can channel and like Suzanne Giesemann, like Teresa Caputo, she has medium capabilities. However, that is not why she was originally hired to work.

defense. And that's, I think, possibly the most fascinating aspect of this story. Many people were employed alongside her who were not channels and not mediums, but who were being instructed by the military to be able to effectively be spies. She actually was inducted into the National Security Agency's Spy Museum just last year. And

she's got stories to tell that are truly paradigm shifting. She was a part of Stargate, which is the psychic phenomenon program. And I think one of the hardest hitting parts of this for you, Mayim, was the fact that there are these government programs that many people on the internet know about, but a lot of people in the public sphere just have no concept that there are these

Programs that are funded by Congress that are using people with extrasensory abilities in this way.

And in addition, the government is also training people to utilize extrasensory perception, which apparently is available to more of us than we even realized. And Angela's going to talk about that. She teaches at the Monroe Institute, which we've talked about in our episode with Thomas Campbell. And she works with Dr. Ed May, the Laboratories of Fundamental Research in Mountain View, California. So she has retired from her work officially in intelligence, but she does many, many other things and is a

Really, really fascinating woman. And let's just welcome Angela Ford to The Breakdown. Break it down. It's nice to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. It's very rare that Valerie sends research on the person we're going to speak to. And my response is, what is happening here? Because you have an unbelievable story. Your life has had an unbelievable trajectory and it's taken you...

some pretty incredible places that honestly will make most people challenge what they believe about what is true and what the human experience is. So thank you for being here to fill us in on all that. Thank you. We're going to start with, I want to start really, really basic and

When did you first know that you had abilities that were outside of the realm of what other people were experiencing? I was very young. I was...

I was very young. It was before I was in school, but I used to have a lot of out-of-body experiences where as a child, I mean, I could leave my body and I could fly around. Now, don't ask me how I knew this, but I knew that you just don't talk about it at some level, you know, but I remember doing a lot of out-of-body experience, I guess experiences.

Now, whenever I got to be around five or six years old, I used to have a lot of dreams. And actually, I think they were perfect. I think they were...

I think they were of the future because I would wake up and I would tell my mother that I would have these dreams and she would listen to me. And sometimes she would write them down and she took them very serious. So she wasn't telling me a lot of times when young people have psychic experiences or psychic dreams, they're told like, Oh, don't talk like that or be quiet. Or like, you know, they say, Hey, I saw grandma yesterday and she died. You know, they're told to be quiet. So, um,

My mother never, she just listened. So I think that that kind of, so that all happened at a very, very early age. Now I know, I'm

So as I got older and as you go in school and as you become more social and as you learn things, I guess the abilities weren't there so much. But I always was I was very curious. I was always very curious. And I would go to fortune tellers or I would read. I can remember I read a book when I was a senior in high school and it was about a man who did.

he would fly in his airplane. He was doing Arctic exploration. And he always felt that if he wrecked the plane or if he lost all communications, he would do ESP tests with the person on the ground so that if something were to happen to him, he could send ESP messages. Well,

He never got into any trouble, but they did do the ESP experiences. So he would come back from his flights and then he would talk about... The guy would say, well, I felt like you were here at this point and this is what you were going through or this is what you... So they could collaborate to see if it was working. Well, I had read this book and years later when I started to work for the government, one of my bosses or one of my...

He was one of the guys that, one of the gentlemen that knew the pilot. He knew the explorer and knew the people that were conducting the experiment. So I thought that was interesting that I had read about this man when I was a senior in high school. And then years later, I come to know as one of the people in on that. So I think I always had the interest. I always had the interest. Now, I want you to explain to us, because a lot of kids...

think a lot of fun things. A lot of kids have an active imagination, you know, especially people who end up being artists or, you know, some sort of clairvoyant, you know, sometimes they have a very active imagination.

Can you describe what it means that you had out-of-body experiences? Do you mean you had dissociative episodes or were you literally not in your body? No, I could see myself leaving my body. I could, I left my body and I would look down and I would be laying on the bed and then I would just fly. And I could walk through doors, I could go through windows and I would just go fly. Where would you go?

I would go outside. I like to be up in the trees. One time I went to the sun. I felt like I went to the sun. One time I felt like I could see more like beings that maybe don't live on earth. A lot of communication that way. One time I felt that I was a place where there was a lot of chatter, chatter, chatter. So and then one time I felt like I was with just a beautiful woman who just emitted love.

I'm going to ask a very delicate question, and I'm asking it with the utmost respect. Did you ever wonder if maybe like you were not well or were you always clear that this was? I was very clear. I had a lot of clarity. And at some level, I knew at a very young age not to talk about it.

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You've talked about your mother having some sort of abilities. When did you learn about that? And do you think that's part of why you have this access? Oh, sure. Now, what happened with my mother was my mother was always interested in the subject. And I can remember as a child growing up, she had a lot of Edgar Cayce material. She had a lot of...

Jean Dixon. So my mother, my mother bought an encyclopedia of ESP, 20 books all on ESP. They are, I went home to see my brothers that, that encyclopedia is still in that bookcase. So you can pick up that book and it talks about, you know, dying and life on the other side. You can pick it up and read about channeling. But I guess, so anyway, my mother always had the interest in,

And actually, as a teenager, it was kind of embarrassing because she would talk about reincarnation and she'd like to listen to country Western music. So as a teenager, I mean, it's not cool. So she kind of embarrassed me a little bit. However, I was born and raised in Pennsylvania. I have a political science degree and I came down to Washington, D.C. to start working for the FBI. Now,

I was waiting for my clearance. They do an investigation. They do a clearance on you to make sure that, you know, I don't have a criminal record. But as I was waiting for my clearance so I could come work for the FBI, there was a night class at the university. It was an ESP class. And there was a chemistry professor that was very psychic. And he would teach these ESP classes at night. It was just like night.

night classes, you know, where you pay $35 and you go for six weeks. Well, I attended this guy's class, but I could only stay for one or two weeks because I got it. I received a nighttime job. So I had to quit so I could make the money so I could come down to Washington. So I quit. Well, a few years later, as I, well, actually quite a few years later,

My mother called me up one, it was a September, it was at the end of summer. I was living in Virginia and my mother said, you know, I just, what can I do? I want to take a class. I want to do something. And her and her friends always would do something. So I said, you should take that ESP class by Dr. Bordas. And she said, I think I will. So she did. Well, what we've come to find out was that my mother was very psychic. She could take ESP.

objects like a ring or a watch. It's called psychometry. And she could take things and she could actually read a person like who owned the ring and what they were like. And somebody brought her something and she could tell the person's husband was in World War II. So she had this ability. Well,

So at that time, I was 29 or 30 years old, and my father had passed. And I was having a very difficult time with my father's death. So my mother sent me this. She sent me a book, and it was called A World Beyond by Ruth Montgomery. And she said, read this book. You will understand your father's death. You'll come to understanding your father's death. Well, in it, Ruth Montgomery channels death.

She talked about life on the other side. She talked about reincarnation. And I resonated with that book. It was something that I felt healed my heart, helped heal me from my father's death. And so after that, I started to channel. I said, well, you know, I'm going to try this channeling, which she did. So I started to channel and I was working for Army Intelligence at the time and

And they had a program where they were bringing in people that they felt had these abilities to, you know, you could go work as a psychic for this, for Army Intelligence. And that's a whole other story. Angela, you're acting like this is a normal thing that you can work as a psychic for Army Intelligence. Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, how I even got to Army, how I got to the FBI, to Army Intelligence was

I wasn't making money at the FBI. The pay was lousy and I wanted to be an FBI agent. I didn't have the eyesight. So I was working with a woman who left. You didn't have the eyesight. You could see into other portals of the universe and time. Who needs eyeballs?

I know, I know. I still have trouble. So my friend laughed and she called me up and she said, come over to Army Intelligence. They're looking for political science degrees and you get a raise for two years and you're going to make much more money than what you're making now. So I applied and I was with the military and my family's not military. I went to college during the 70s when people were protesting Vietnam. I mean, it was very...

It was a culture I wasn't used to. So I wasn't really uncomfortable. I wasn't real comfortable with it, but I did it. I did it. And every time I went to quit or do something else, just something would happen that would make me stay. When I was 29 or 30, I had heard about this, the psychic program. You have these experiences as a child. You intuitively knew that

Like that you had some sort of like ability or access, but you didn't talk about it. And it somewhat was set aside, it sounds like. And and then and then you just independently of all this, you went and got a poli sci degree from a lovely university. And then you went to work for the government. What did you think you were going to be doing? Nothing to do with your special abilities. Right.

Oh, no, no, no. I wanted to be an FBI agent, but I didn't have the- Just a regular FBI agent, not one who sees into the universe. Oh, yeah. Oh, no, no. It was just a regular government job, but I didn't have the eyesight. But with Army intelligence, you're talking diplomacy.

You know, how do you collect intelligence? I was an analyst. They always made me an analyst because political science was broad. A lot of history, a lot of diplomacy, international law. How do you get along with other countries? What's going on in other countries that the United States needs to know about? Okay, so at what point...

Did you reveal to the government that you have psychic abilities that allow you to leave your body? Okay, this is what happened. When I went to the U.S. Army Military Intelligence, they put me on a two, three, it was a three-year internship program.

And during that internship, I visited all the intelligence communities in Washington. I took classes at the different agencies. And what I was taught was who the intelligence organizations were, what their missions were. And then at the end of that three years, they gave me a job. Well, I did Central American affairs because at that time it was –

And I'm female, I'm not military, and I'm not a military female.

So I did not get the high visibility accounts like missiles in the Soviet Union or tanks in China. I got good old Central America. Well, little did people know during that time in the 1980s that it was heated up. You had Noriega in Panama. You had Sandinistas in Nicaragua. You had the insurgencies in El Salvador, Mexico.

in Honduras. And then when President Bush, the first President Bush came along, he allowed the military to partake in drug interdiction. So it was a hotbed. Once they brought the drugs in, he had to take them out. So

It was interesting. It was an interesting, I think it was more exciting and more interesting than I think people would imagine that it would have been. But anyway, that's what I did. Well, what happened was I had learned through, I had learned that there was, well, that there was this program that the Army had with these, they were looking for people that had these abilities.

And it just shocked me because I didn't know. And apparently this program, it was a special access program. It was highly classified. And the reason I did not know about it was because it was never spoke, it was never talked about before.

But there was a general, every so often you change, there was a general that came into Army Intelligence and he became the director or the commander of U.S. Army and Intelligence. And every three to four years, these generals rotate.

So this general came in and his name was Albert Stubblebine. Now, General Stubblebine believed in, he was looking, he was very open about being psychic because he was believed to

He wanted soldiers to use their... He was a spoonbender. Have you ever heard of Uri Geller? Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was a spoonbender. And so he would hold... He'd be in his office and everybody would be sitting around bending spoons. And I don't know if you ever saw the movie Men Who Stare at Goats, but they do have a general that walks through walls that...

And that would have been General Stubblebine. And I think there was a man that played General Stubblebine's right-hand man, and that would have been Colonel Alexander. So, yes, that movie portrays...

So apparently this General Stubblebine seemed to be more open about looking for people who had these abilities. And on Friday evenings, he would take busloads of people down to the Monroe Institute down in Faber, Virginia, which is a Bob Monroe teaches people how to go out of body.

So so he would take you would go down on a Friday night and come back on a Sunday evening. And he opened this up to his military. So I so the first time I got on the list, there was a woman you go. You would go down to personnel. And I said, I want to go to Monroe. So wait, I'm sorry. I want to just jump in. Did you tell anyone like, I think I have these powers or did you not even relate it to what you had experienced as a child?

Oh, no. Whoever had the interest could go. I didn't say anything. I just went down. It went like, if you're interested, if you think you want this, go sign up. You can go to Monroe. Got it. So I didn't say anything. So I'd go see the woman and she'd put my name on the list. So the first time she called me up and she said, we took your name off the list because some colonel's flying in from Hawaii to go. And so I

So I was over. So in other words, I couldn't go because some high ranking official took my, okay. So then it happened the second time I was supposed to go. And she said, you've been canceled again. And I said, okay. So then the third time my name was on the list and she said, okay, she said, she said, this isn't fair. She says, I will go in and I will fight you.

I will fight. I think you should. I said, okay, go ahead or whatever. But I don't know what happened. I didn't go that third time. So I never did make it to Monroe. I never made it. Now, at that point, when I knew I had the abilities and I started to channel, I knew people that had access to the general. So I said, I'd like to meet him. I'd like to be, I would channel. I would like to go be, I

I don't know if I asked to be in the program, but I said, I have these abilities. You know, maybe he'd be interested in talking to me or what do you think? And they were like, oh, yeah, sure. He's, you know, that's he's looking for people like you. So I went and met him. Well, it was 1984 and he was retiring because he was losing support from the Joint Chief of Staff.

And he said, I'll retire. I can go out and work on this. I can have my own company and do this. So that was 1984. And I thought, well, there, I'm not going to get into the program because they shut, they would have shut down the remote viewers. They were working out at Fort Meade in a pre-World War I structure.

So I thought, well, that's it. I'm not going to go into the psychic program. And this is what happened, which I did not find out until years later. In 1984, General Stubblebine retired, and people that were working as remote viewers and

were at Fort Meade, Maryland, and they weren't doing anything. They were sitting around waiting for orders. I guess when they closed down a program, they would put you another job. So you had military people waiting to get orders to see what their next assignment would be. Then you had civilians, and they would have probably put them into the workforce, maybe

They would have put them back into the workforce for Army intelligence. So you had a handful of people in 1984 kind of sitting around saying, okay, where are we going to go? What are we going to do? Well, there was a man by the name of Dr. Jack Verona who worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency.

which the Defense Intelligence Agency is like the sister of the CIA. The only thing they deal with defense intelligence and the CIA deals with more general intelligence. So Dr. Verona, he...

He had an interest in psychicness because he was getting his doctorate's degree down at Duke University in North Carolina. He was dating a woman who eventually became his wife, and his future mother-in-law was working for a husband and wife parapsychology team named Ryan and Ryan, and they were doing psychic research at Duke University.

Well, Dr. Verona met his girlfriend, met his future mother-in-law, and he got involved with this ESP stuff. So when he graduated with his doctorate's degree, he first went to CIA as a senior doctor.

scientist. And he gave a small contract to Stanford Research Institute to find out what they were doing in this psychic research. And so there were two scientists, Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ,

They coined the word remote viewing, which is ESP. And they got the word because they were looking at Chinese children had clairvoyant abilities. And whenever it was interpreted from China to English, what the Chinese children were doing, it was coming out like I remotely view or I view remotely. And that's how you came up with the word remote viewing.

So Dr. Verona in 1984 went to Congress and said, don't leave the people there, leave the building there. He said, take the remote viewers, take the psychics and transfer them from Army intelligence into his agency.

So they took the people and they took, now these people no longer work for army intelligence. They were now employees of the defense intelligence agency, which probably took 19, probably took a year because they had to go to Congress and they had to write a new language. And I think Al Gore wrote the language for the, for the program and,

So by 1986, that program was reinstated. It wasn't lost. It went from one agency to another. The name had to change. So they went through all of the administrative stuff. And then in January 1986, I got approached to be part of the project. So I just want to be clear here in my understanding. So the government...

has no problem leaning into people who have extrasensory perception and in many cases are able to view things in places where their body is not. And this was used as a legitimate technique that not only were they recruiting people who had these abilities or claimed to,

This was a program that they believed you could teach people how to have these abilities. Is that right? This program was sanctioned. Well, first of all, the CIA was doing a lot of this back in the 60s and 70s. But they were doing they were you. I guess they were giving what LSD to people or whatever. They had to stop. The CIA stopped them. They said, you know, you know, you got people falling out of windows, you know.

jumping out of windows. Yeah, the Wormwood series was an accounting of that particular scientist, yeah. So what happened was is that we had Dr. Verona and some, there was a doctor, there was a genetic doctor. He was a general of the Air Force's Medical Intelligence Command. Some people went to Congress and say, look, we really want to get this

going again. And Congress said, we're going to give you a program, but there's going to be human use. You're going to have human use guidelines. You cannot touch their brain. You cannot touch them. You cannot give them any drugs. We had oversight by lawyers at the Pentagon. So we were very protected. I mean,

We were very protected. There were laws on what they could not and what they could do to us. Angela, you know, you know, a lot of people either don't don't know this or might find it really unbelievable that the government was using these techniques and also teaching these techniques.

techniques. Like, I mean, you're very, you're very casual about it because you lived it. But for many of us, like I grew up believing, you know, I was raised by liberal parents. I was, you know, raised like that the government sends people to countries to kill people that we don't know. And the government does a lot of bureaucratic stuff and it makes rules and it is not nice to black people. You know, like I was raised with this structure of a government that

And nowhere in my education about what the government does, I knew they spied. Like I knew there were spies. But no, this is like a very different level, Angela. You're very comfortable with it. And I'm like my jaw is on the floor. Well, you know, when you get involved with intelligence, intelligence is nothing more than collecting information. It's nothing. And people in the intelligence field, they just love information. They just they don't care how you get it.

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If you're living in a materialist world, which most people are, it would never occur to me like, oh, I want information so badly. I'm going to send people out of their bodies into another realm of existence to get the information I need so I can do all the evil things I do as a government. That wouldn't occur to me because I didn't know that it's real. Right.

Oh, I know. I know. I know. And believe me, believe me, it upset a lot of people. I mean, it took a lot of fighting to keep the first... It's still upsetting people, Angela. Well, the thing is, is that if people... If this... Okay. It was hard. I mean, it was a hard sell. I mean, these people would go to the government and then ask for money. And of course, you had Congress people that were totally against it. And if this type of work...

is against a person's belief system. They're not going to believe it no matter what happens. You can get, you know, we would think, give them results, give them, you know, hey, look what we did. Look what, yeah, we found this hostage or, you know, we were able to do that. They don't care. It's against their belief system.

Now, we had people that fully supported us, but it was a fight. I mean, it was a battle to keep us alive. And I think we had a IG and they called it Inspector General's IG inspection. They tried to close us down one time. So there were battles.

We had people smart enough that we had people in the system that was smart enough to keep us. They were political savvy. They knew what they were doing. They knew how to keep us alive. I think the general, the genetic doctor, I think he retired and he knew how to put money in the system for the next 10 years to keep the research going. So you had people with know-how. Yeah.

I'm out of my mind for Angela. I need to move in with her to fully obtain all the information that I need about what's in her head. I think we should send you to psychic school. We should sign you up. Well, apparently it's something that you can learn. The government knew that. I can't even like meditate for five minutes and have my brain quiet down, but I can be taught to do this. Well, we'll get to that. Sorry. Go ahead, Jonathan. I think we should take a second and explore the theory behind

that's at play here that goes against some people's materialist beliefs, right? Like, let's just talk theoretically for a minute about what's happening, because I think where the shock comes from that the government was funding and utilizing this goes to a different worldview, right?

If you believe that people don't have extrasensory abilities and we're basically just biologic machines and that consciousness isn't separate from our brains and that we can't travel throughout space and time and get information, then it's very hard to understand what we're talking about. Let's start with what is ESP as a starting point and why?

Let's talk about what does it mean to gather information? How is that possible? I have my answer, but let's do Angela's answer first. I think ESP is just knowing things, having information that are beyond the five, that you're receiving information or you're knowing things that are beyond the five senses. You can't taste it. You can't see it. You can't smell it.

And that's what I think it is. I do think that there's ways that you can. Now, a lot of times I recommend the book, The Silver Mind Control. And I tell people that that book, you don't have to meditate for 10 minutes. It's just you kind of go down and you meditate. You put yourself in a little meditative state. And if, okay, suppose, okay.

Suppose you want to know, like, you know, I wonder what my day is going to be like today. So you kind of go down and you relax. And then you kind of, in your mind's eye, you turn on the television.

So then you see yourself and you see yourself going through the day. And then when you're done, you just turn the television off. So a lot of it is visualization. And this is what the government did. They did a lot of visualization techniques. Correct me if I'm wrong here, Angela, but the practice of turning that television on and practicing the visualization, at first you may be making it up, but the more you practice it, what you're doing is you're opening up a portal to

to non-local information to be presented to you. And the more you practice it, the more likely it is that you're going to get things that are relevant to your experience and that will actually potentially happen. Maybe so, but you're training the subconscious. This is what happens when you train somebody in remote viewing or to be psychic, you're telling the subconscious that it's going to do something different for you.

Now, when you take people in and you give them visualization techniques and they're going to go down and they're going to access and describe that picture in the envelope, people will do really good because, you know, they'll kind of go down and they'll say, oh, I see a tree. Oh, I see a house. And they're going to give you something. And then you're going to show them the picture and everybody's going to be happy and everybody thinks they can do this.

Then all of a sudden the subconscious comes in and says, hey, you're teaching me something new that I'm not used to and I don't like it and I'm not going to do it. So then what happens is people go, they have a downward turn where they can't remote view. And then what happens is, is you have to keep working it and then the subconscious will come back and start working for you. But it's a subconscious. Yeah.

I, I, I, I think if you, if you had me look in an envelope, I don't, I mean, you're saying that I could be trained to drop into this place that would allow. So I'm sorry. I want you to walk me through it though. So you're saying that that envelope, let's say a closed envelope with a picture in it, you're saying, and I'm trying to make this make sense. Like I want this to work.

You're saying that that exists in the universe as, you know, binary code, right? It exists as zeros and ones that I can access somehow without my eyeballs or my occipital lobe.

Yeah. Now, what the scientists have shown, what the scientists have proved, that there are some pictures, which we call targets, there are some pictures that are very conducive to remote viewing. Now, if I want you to do a remote viewing of a picture in an envelope...

You're going to be the psychic. And what we found out is we want you to be successful. So what we're going to do is we're going to put you in a quiet room, maybe semi-dark or dark, so you can relax. Then what we're going to do is we're going to make sure that that picture is something that your subconscious can latch on to.

Now, what they found is shapes. They like to do pyramids because pyramids is a triangle. They like pictures of Stonehenge or the Kentucky Derby because they have circles.

And they like to do the Washington Monument because it's a peak. It's like a mountain. So what you do is you start people on these targets that are very conducive for remote viewing. And that's what the scientists at SRI, at Stanford Research Institute, studied.

What makes a good, you know, how can we train people? And the subconscious loves drawings and symbols. So if that's how the subconscious is going to give you information, then that's what we're going to train the subconscious to do. You are now in an environment where you're

the abilities that came to you naturally as a child, even if you didn't connect it that way, the abilities that came naturally to you as a child are now being channeled in order to gain information about people, places, and things that are not in your proscenium. Like they're not in front of you. And this is like a legitimate opportunity

thing that you're all doing while working for the government? Yeah, we write up reports and we write up formal reports and send them to headquarters. Okay, so I want you to give us what is obviously an unbelievable example of what happened in 1989. So you were charged with trying to locate Charles Jordan. What is it like to get an assignment from

from your superiors to try and find a person? Like, do you get like a file with a picture? Oh, no, no, no. We don't get any, you don't get anything. You don't get anything because if you get something, that's like cheating. You can't give, you can't. Well, I wouldn't want you cheating while you're remote viewing. Like I want the real thing. Yeah. That's why we had oversight. Okay. So how are you? So you are, how did you come to find someone?

Charles Jordan. Okay, my boss took me into the... Okay, this is the backstory. Charles Jordan was on the 10 Most Wanted list, and he was on that TV program, the 10 Most Wanted. So this would have been considered an unclassified case. So my boss took me into the... We worked in one room, and then we went to...

We worked in one room and then we went to another building to work. You mean to, to remote, to remote view. There was another building. So my boss took me into the other building. He says, we have an operation. So my boss said, he said, where is Charles Jordan? That's it. Where's Charles Jordan? Okay. Now also, fuck if I know. So I looked at him now, um,

I'm also a channelist. So not only do I, there's other ways that I work because I'm a natural psychic. See, I'm a natural psychic. So I'm not, things can come to me without the training. So that's a whole other story. When did you, did you tell the military this? Did you say, oh, by the way, I channel? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. How'd that go over? What was that like? Oh, they were military men. They said, you can't do that. That's not the right way.

They said, you can't do that. That's not the right way. In here, we teach you the right way to become psychic. What is happening? Wow. So I said, is that right? So I said, okay, fine. Because believe me, I worked for the military. I was a female civilian. I had...

I had younger females come in wearing the military uniform and would get more respect than me that didn't know any. I mean, before they even knew their accounts, I was used to this. So they said, you have a bad habit with your channeling because things come to me. I do automatic writing. And they said, so you can't do that. So I said, okay, I won't do that.

So I just did what they wanted me to do. So after a year and a half, the management left. The man who said I had a bad habit left. The man who left. Everybody left. So we got a new guy that came in. And this guy, my boss, Fern, he left.

He was part of the program in the early years. And he said, I really don't care how people get information. He said, I know that Stanford put out a protocol. It was called coordinate remote viewing. And he said, that's fine. He said, but, you know, I don't care.

I don't really care what people do to get information. And then there was a scientist that they brought in at Stanford Research Institute called Dr. May. And Ed May said, I don't care.

I don't care if a psychic stands on their head to give me the information. So they were real liberal about the information. So I said, fine, I'll do my channeling. So they said, okay, you can do your channeling. So it's written. So they said, where's Charles Jordan? So I said, Charles Jordan is in Lowell, L-O-W-E-L-L, Wyoming. What did you do to get that information? Talk us through what you do. Like you close your eyes, you spin in a circle. No, I'm just...

I looked at him and I put my pen on the paper and I wrote out Lowell, L-O-W-E-L-L. Just like that? Just like that. Just like that. It came like that. It just came. Now, my boss looked at me, Fern, and he was born in Lowell, Massachusetts. And he said, Angela...

do you mean Lowell, Massachusetts? And I said, no, because at that point I was getting the feeling that you get sensations, you get feelings. What was the sensation? What's the sensation? It was the West. I said, no, it's, it's, it's the West. I'm getting like, you know, the cowboy, whenever you were getting, I'm getting like cowboys, feelings, Indians, you know, cowboys and Indians. And that's not Massachusetts. That's, that's, that's Wyoming. And,

And Jeannie, the secretary, she always kind of knew that, you know, Jeannie's like, she said Wyoming. So we kind of were like, no, it's Wyoming. Well, after that, I knew that I started to get all of these feelings about drugs.

illegal drugs coming in from, you know. What's that feeling? What does it feel like? Just drugs. I started to smell drugs. And I said, oh, this is... So I had a choice to make. And I said, look, I said, I feel the guys in Wyoming, but if I go any further, I'm going to put... I had to get out of the session because then I would have put him in Florida or someplace. So...

So it was a conscious decision on my part. And I said, I'm going to say he's in Wyoming and let's get out of the session because I was afraid with all of the drug feeling coming in that I was going to put him someplace else because he was one. He was a customs agent that went bad. So he was he was wanted. He was a customs agent that was that was doing drug interdiction. But then for some reason, he took the money and he went rogue.

And, you know, in police organizations, if one of their own go off, you know, or not honest, other cops, other people don't like him. So customs really wanted him. Okay. So we've got Charles Jordan. You said Lovell or Lowell? I said Lowell, Wyoming. Right. And we didn't know, but then we went to, there was a small book in the room of,

of an atlas, just pages of maps, pages of maps. And Fern said, you know, there's a level Wyoming, not a low. I said close enough. That's it.

You know, it was enough. I had to get out or I was going to change my information. And if you change, and that can happen psychically where you pick up one thing and then all of a sudden you're on to something else and that happens. And then you don't know what's right or what's wrong. So now we've got...

There's a place called Lovell, Wyoming. And I like that your response was close enough. I'm a freaking psychic. Go for it. So what happened then? Well, we came out and of course, you know, the government goes crazy because you can't write a report with two words, Lovell, Wyoming. Right.

So they were like, how are we going to get this? They're like, can you give me something else? I said, no, that's it. So they gave it to Dr. Verona and Dr. Verona went to customs. And of course, everybody had the man in Florida, in the Bahamas, in the South. And Dr. Verona said, we have a person that has them in Lovell, Wyoming. And customs said he would never be in Wyoming. He would be down South.

So we said, okay, thank you very much. So about a month later, and they kept nagging me to work this because they wanted more information. I couldn't give it. It wasn't there. It just wasn't coming through.

So about a month later, I think one guy came down from headquarters. And I think because he came down from headquarters, I said, OK, I'll do it again. So I went in and I said, if you want Charles Jordan, he's traveling west of Wyoming, west of Lovell,

And I said, and I explained this hotel that was near an Indian burial ground. And I explained the Indian burial ground. And you were just getting more information. Yeah. By that time, I was just getting more information. So I did it. So I said, okay, let's try it one more time. I wasn't sure how it was going to go. So I said, he's moving west of Wyoming.

There was a burial. I explained the Indian burial ground, the hotel. So Dr. Verona went back to customs and said, I'm sorry, but the person that this person who has done pretty good in finding things and people said that he's moving west of Lovell, Wyoming. And the customs man said,

As we are speaking, we are apprehending Charles Jordan 100 miles west of Lovell, Wyoming. No! Angela, no! That's crazy! I know. So anyway, I was real happy and I wanted the reward money. It was in the class of my case. I said, I want the reward money. And they said, you were just doing your job. Oh, yeah.

And they said, that's how they, I mean, yeah. And so then they told me, I said, how did they get him? And they said there was a security guard at Yellowstone National Park that found him. And that's how they arrested him. So this is in 1989, 1989. And we, and so, okay, they got Charles Jordan and nice job, Angela. Everybody was happy. It was one for the books. Well, in 1995,

Because it was an unclassified case, the BBC got a hold of the case and researched it. They flew from England over here to where I live in Maryland, and they interviewed me and this man named Dale Graff. Dale was part, he worked for Dr. Verona. Well, they came back a year later and they did a reenactment of the case. I think the reenactment took place in June, either 1995 or 1996.

Dale said, boy, it's a shame we didn't get, it's a shame that our agency didn't get any credit for the fine. And the Wyoming man, the Wyoming customs man said, are you kidding? It was because of Angela. We found Charles Jordan.

And they said about three weeks after I said he was in Wyoming, Charles Jordan sent his mother a picture of himself to show that he was alive and well. And she showed it to the FBI. And when the FBI saw the picture, there was a truck that had Wyoming license plates.

And they said at that point, they started to send pictures up and FBI people up to start looking for Charles Jordan. And the area is it's not that populated. And they said that probably they had the pictures all over the place at the Yellowstone. So they said it was because of me. So here I was all the years later that we just that we got the credit. What role do you think that.

remote viewing, channeling should and could have in the defense apparatus moving forward? Well, you know, I was talking to my friend Ed May, the scientist about it, and he said, you know, Angela, when we were doing it, there wasn't that many collection methods. Now there's so many collection methods now out there that they probably don't need psychics like they used to.

But we were talking about AI, but I don't think AI can be like a psychic. So even though I don't think, I still think you need psychics other than AI, but I do believe there is a need for psychics because

I think if you had a good psychic and they could help you find weapons of mass destruction, I think that they're good at finding hostages. I do think that remote viewing or psychics do, I think they do have a place.

Now, it may be different than whenever I did it, but you still have terrorists. You still need to know plans and intentions of world leaders. Are they good? And so I do think it needs its placement.

There's so many different ways to collect information now, but I still feel you need the psychic. And you can take the psychic information and just blend it in with what I, when I worked for intelligence, I worked for over 32 years. Only nine of those years were as the psychic, but the rest was an analyst. And I think I had different accounts and you take, you know, you've got signals doing, collecting something. You've got a picture of,

somebody's on the ground telling you something. So you put it all together and, and, and that's what you do with psychic input. You put it all together and then you piece something together. But I would think that,

Now, when we met with the Soviets or the former Soviet, the Russians, they wanted they wanted a joint U.S. Russian program to fight terrorism. They want to work with us to fight terrorism. Well, I think the important thing that really stands out for me when you're talking about being an analyst and and using a collection of data, folding it in is.

It's important for me to say that it's not that anyone should blindly trust an intuitive or psychic signal or someone else's opinion. It's about collecting the data and analyzing it amongst individuals.

other signals, your intelligence, your rational thought. And sometimes it is that the psychic information will come in ahead or in front of what rational thought can justify. And you might have to offer a bridge. But, you know, if someone says quit your job tomorrow, you should be a little cautious and unless you have some additional information about what's going on. So I want to go back just a little bit in time and

When did you start channeling and when did you know that that was a thing that you could do or having psychic abilities? Like, when did that start? It was after my father died. And my father died in 1982.

In 1983, my mother sent me this book. She said, so at that point, I was working for Army Intelligence. My mother sent me the book. My mother was taking an ESP class at the college. And then I kind of just opened up. So did you channel like for fun on the weekends? Like, did you use it recreationally? Like, was this something you did like?

I mean, I'm imagining like, were you dating someone? Could you channel and see what they were feeling? Like, were you using this actively? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was. I was finding out information on my on my family. I remembered I had a cousin and her husband. They were trying to adopt. They were they were a plant. They were waiting to adopt the baby. And I said they would have their baby in March. And they did.

And then I had a cousin, he was a businessman and he was running for politics in Pennsylvania. So I would do a lot of the forecasting business and things that were going to happen politically in Pennsylvania during that time period. And I would tell him, yeah.

So those are things that in theory, right, if I wanted to like play a statistical game, I could be like, OK, well, you had a one in 12 chance or a one in six chance generally of knowing when they applied for adoption or even politics stuff. Right. Those are things that I could be like, well, there's only so many ways things could go. Were there any instances where you were tapping into something on the lines of what you ended up kind of finding with Charles Jordan, where you were learning information through channeling that for you was indisputable?

I don't know. I remembered my cousin said, I told my cousin, her husband was going to get a new job in April and he got a new job May 1st. And he said it didn't count. I said April and he didn't get it. No, but I'll tell you what I was really interested in was life. What goes on after we leave? I was getting a lot of information on my deceased relatives. And my mother was real happy about it because some of them I didn't know and they were her relatives.

So, and then I can remember that my mother, I think she had a miscarriage and they explained that the soul was on that side and that it was still part of our family karma. And that even though the soul wasn't born, when we go back, I'll meet that soul because it would have been my brother. So it's, I learned a lot like that. A lot of spiritual stuff. Yeah.

Like we go, we go on, we go on, we come back. I want to know, there are entities that sometimes accompany you when you see things. When did that start happening? And can you talk a little bit about how you maybe stood out from other people in your department in that you were a channeler that was using entities? What can you describe that?

Well, what did they call you? Sorry. I'm a witch. I'm a witch. You know, I'm laughing about things now, but you know, at this age and everything I've been through, what can anybody do to me at this point? Um, yeah, they were actually, that's what's the automatic writing was that more or less you get helpers from the other side who kind of help you along. What is automatic writing? I guess it's called channeling or spirit writing. And that, um,

It's channeling... Did you ever...

I don't know. Have you ever seen the way John Edward works or who was the psychic medium, what they call her, the Long Island medium? Yeah, Teresa Caputo. We spoke with her. They're talking it. When you see them working, they're channeling. I can do that, but I do it with automatic writing. I'm doing what they're doing, but I rely on my pen or pencils to do it. You just put your pen down and you just write what comes out.

I can do what they do, but I can't do it verbally. I think what they do is that they can do it without any tool is amazing to me. I do what they do. The only thing is, is I rely on the pen or paper. And what are these entities? They're called, they're just helpers. They're like helpers that can help you or that can guide you. They kind of come in. It's sort of like you get the helpers that you need when

when you need them. It's sort of like if your mother's on the other side, okay? Okay. Well, she's on the other side and she's busy doing things, but maybe you're going through a hard time. So she'll say, hey, you know what? I better go help my daughter out. She's going through a hard time. So she'll come down and she'll kind of guide you a little bit. Does this happen to everybody? You just, we're just not all tapping into, like what, nothing happens for me like that, Angela, like ever. You have to have awareness. I think if you had awareness, I think-

Because there are, I mean, it's, believe me, it's not, it's just not us here.

It can't be. There has to be more. Don't you think? I mean, I'd like to think. I just don't really have personal experience to speak from. And I know Jonathan has a lot more kind of comfortability and familiarity with this notion. But whenever I've had... I've gone to a lot of guides, a lot of healers, a lot of channelers, a lot of mystics, and they're like, your guides are with you. Your angels are... For me, I haven't had that experience yet.

I think it's just aware. Jonathan, have you had insensitivity? I have. Yeah. Am I the only one? Valerie, you have angels and guides? No, Valerie's with me. Valerie and I want to believe though. Well, I've heard you describe that nothing is a coincidence. And tell us a little bit more about that. I think synchronous, I believe in synchronicity. If synchronicity happens in your life, pay attention to it.

I think that we're here to meet the people that we're supposed to meet. Just nothing is, no, it's not an accident. Nothing is an accident. I think one of the reasons that Mayim can say that she doesn't have the experience of being guided is that she has a very strong intellect and will sense something or have an intuition and then try to rationalize it in the mind in certain ways.

And so one of the ways, you know, if we can generalize about how people start to integrate more intuition into their lives, I'd love to hear some suggestions. One might start to be to start to notice those initial gut responses, reactions, and

In certain situations, would you agree as that is a tactic or, you know, given that you've studied this and also had a personal, you know, aptitude for it before studying, how would you recommend that people start to develop and become more aware of intuitive abilities? I think meditate, I really, I really think meditation opens people up and I really think it makes people more intelligent.

just, I believe meditation does it or learning yoga, but I do believe it's through meditation because I've seen people just open up through meditation and it doesn't have to be a long, like the Silva mind control, 10 minutes, just examples, just something like that. But yeah, I mean, you have a, what a doctorate's degree in what? Neuroscience. Neuroscience. Yeah. I mean, that's, you're thinking, you're a thinker. I mean, I'm also a deep feeler. I just,

Uh, really? Yeah. I, um, yeah, I do spend a lot of time in my head, uh, for sure, but I guess it's also, you know, it, it, it takes all types of people like to make the world go round. I wonder what it would be like, you know, to live in a world where everyone was tapping into this kind of thing. I think we'd have a very different, you know, our life would be very different.

Oh, I think it would be, people would feel more. You would feel, you wouldn't want to hurt somebody. I mean, I think people would, would just feel more. They would, you know, you just care more, you know, watch what you say. You don't want to hurt, not be a bully. I think that you just, just feel more.

We're going to hit pause here. We have so much more to talk about with Angela Ford. Please make sure you're subscribed and make sure to check out part two. And we'll sign off here for now. And can't wait for you to hear what else Angela Ford's going to talk about in our next episode with her. From our breakdown to the one you're going to have with us right after this. We'll see you next time. It's my and Bialik's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD.

And now she's gonna break down, so break down, she's gonna break it down.