743. Sahil Bloom on Why Chasing Money Will Leave You Empty—And What to Do Instead
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Welcome to the Almost 30 Podcast. I'm Lindsay. And I'm Krista. And we're your hosts, guides, and friends on this path. Almost 30 is not about your age. It's about the feeling. All of us are almost something, seeking community and resources to support the rumblings of transformation within us. Our conversations are deep dives, shepherded by our insatiable curiosity and desire for connection, enduring inspiration, and a sense of levity that we can all benefit from.

We're looking to find the magic in the human experience. Buckle up, baby. Your evolution is waiting.

Hello and welcome. You are now tuned in to Almost 30 Podcast. Welcome, everybody. It's Lindsay. It's Krista. We're happier here. We're feeling a little goofy-goof. We've been saying that 800 times now. Nearing the end of our recording session here in New York, which you're lucky because when we get goof, it's a good time. It gets a little crazy. Actually, I don't know if in the beginning years in 2016, we were saying, welcome to Almost 30. We were...

Well, we were trying so hard to make it different every time. Yeah, I think so. We would have different music. We would be like, I don't know. It was actually a little... A lot of words, not a lot said is what I'll say about it. Yeah, it probably feels a little chaotic. Very chaotic. I do, even though maybe it's a little cheesy, I do like the consistency of like, whether it's an opening of a show or a closing remark or something like that. It kind of just makes me feel stable. I wish that...

I would like to create a tagline for my own brand and maybe for Almost 30. Taglines, you know what? In a busy world of a lot, people love a tagline. Totally. People love a brand. What would yours be like just kind of off the cuff? Oh, you know, probably a phrase.

Love your body, love your life. Oh, okay. Yeah, could do that. It sounds corny when you say it, but when it's typed, it's cool. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole thing. And then you have to become like a character of your brand. I don't even know. I know. But it's kind of, does, I'm trying to think of like someone who has a tagline. Who has a tagline? I can think of people. I know like TV personalities have some taglines, but like, okay. Yeah.

My favorite, Mel has it. Hey, it's your friend, Mel. Oh, like that. Okay. Simple. Yeah. Maybe that's a tagline, maybe not. Or it's like just a little, you know, consistent thing at the top. Yeah. A little subconscious. Yeah. Freaking love Mel. I know. The best. I remember, before we get into it, I was thinking, first of all, Mel came to

Your house. My apartment in New York where we filmed with her. Yeah. And we were talking about her starting her podcast. Yeah. Years ago. I know. And we knew. I know. It was so- We knew. We were like, this bee is the next Oprah. And she has one of the number one podcasts this year. Yeah. It's been shared one of the top times on Spotify. I believe she's going to be on Oprah's podcast upcoming for her new book, The Lethem Theory. Okay.

I'm like, dude, I'm just, I'm so happy for her. Like she just, I think she was nervous to start one, but also part of her must've known this is right. This is time. I always think about timing in life, you know, like so often we're reaching, and this isn't even about her, but maybe it's about her, just her moment, you know, like she's been working so long. She's so awesome, incredible, been doing so much, but it's like, then fucking, it just pops and everything just

You know, she's always been so incredibly successful, but there's just moments in life. And it's like, how much is it the overtime preparation setting you up for success? And how much is it a timing thing for the collective? Like there's such a magic to that type of.

of journey. But yeah, I'm so excited for it. But I'm excited for this one. Like I love Sahil's content. Like he's such a great speaker. I love his Instagram. And I was really excited that we could have him on. Yeah. He's such a... He's very powerful. When he came in person, I just like his...

His presence is super powerful. He's also like incredibly just warm and engaging. So there was like a balance there. I was like, whoa, super, super powerful. But then we were able to very much drop in not only about his book, but we talked about

you know, fatherhood and, you know, changes in his relationship. And, you know, he used to be in a completely different world and just kind of making that transition as a man. I think going from maybe what his experience would be is like being in a very traditional job provider, like what that means and then what it meant to him to kind of step out of that. We talked about

like the importance of family and truly what's really important, which ties in with his book. His book is phenomenal. It's called The Five Types of Wealth, A Transformative Guide to Design Your Dream Life. And as you can probably imagine, we're not just talking about financial wealth. We're talking about time wealth and social wealth, physical wealth. And what I love about Sawhill is...

just his, his commitment to, um, research. So he is just well studied in research for this book and just in his work. So there's just always going to be the why behind it, which I think is truly how people anchor into these concepts. Um, so we had a blast. He's just so lovely. Uh, his pod is the curated curiosity Chronicle, another incredible show. Um, and,

And I'm excited for people, if they don't know Sahil already, to dig in. Really, really good. So the types of wealth are time wealth, social wealth, mental wealth, physical wealth, and financial wealth. So when you think about where do you think you're doing well and where do you think you're not wealthy? I think for me, my...

I think I'm actually doing really well in my time wealth. Oh, that's great. If I really think about it, you know, where my priorities lie and what I'm able to give to those priorities. I think I'm a perfectionist, so I'll always feel like I can do better. But like, I really feel like I'm able to dedicate withers to family, to new creative things, to our book, like everything.

I feel blessed in that way and I feel like even, you know? That's great. Where I would like to improve. Especially for a new mom to say that. Yeah. Yeah. I think... Yeah, it's interesting. I think there are parts of like...

my mental wealth that I just, I'm like looking at. I think it's magnified when you become a mom, like my impatience, my inability to be present, like just kind of those little aspects that I feel like, oh, it's time for a bit of a, you know, recalibration there. Yeah. Yeah. I think those are the two. What do you think?

I think the – I would love to be – have more financial wealth. Yeah. I think – but that's like bottomless pit a little bit. Yeah. I can't wait to read the book and kind of read about it. But it's like, you know, there's always opportunity there. There's always. There's always. That's why I was like I could probably – I could always say that. Oh, yeah, exactly. It's like I think time wealth, I could be better. I think social wealth. I am. You're fucking rich as shit. I am so rich. I am. I am. I'm like –

Who is that duck in the gold? Daffy Duck or what's the... He's like the bad duck. Oh. It was like... The duck in the gold. Duck in the gold. Let me see. Duck in the gold. Duck in the gold. It was like a cartoon duck. I know. I'm trying to think. Daffy. Daffy. Donald. Who's the rich, rich cartoon duck? Oh. Oh.

Scrooge McDuck. Yeah, Scrooge McDuck. So Scrooge McDuck was a cartoon character and he used to like swim in gold. What was the cartoon with the rich duck from DuckTales? Huey, Dewey, and Louie. Oh, I love those. Dude, what a like crazy thing. But yeah, I feel really, really good there. But it's interesting because I think about the only thing I'll say about this is that when I have to change my time spent from my social wealth, so it's like I'm investing my wealth in my social wealth.

But when I have a romantic relationship, I'm going to have to take some of that time and wealth and spend there. So it'll be interesting. But I'm really excited about this. I feel like this is such a powerful, potent thing for people to think about, to analyze, to look at their lives. Because when we think about lives we love, we can think about it from a few different angles. Yeah.

And I think having this structure of understanding what it means to be wealthy or what it means to feel good or what it means to love our lives and live a dream life, having this sort of angle can be so helpful because it's tactical. It gives you clarity. It helps you look at things honestly, non-judgmentally. And these aspects are really what make our lives what they are. And I think what I realized in this conversation is that like how deeply each one is connected to the other.

You know, so like if you have a lot of financial wealth, but your social wealth is suffering, that's going to have physical wealth effects. Like it's all very connected. It's a great one. So that made me think too where I'm like, if I'm just focused on like, you know, building a business, making money, whatever it is, you know, will that bring me the long-term end of life? Like, wow. Yeah.

wealth that I really truly desire because we cannot bring it with us at the end of the day. Yeah. It's like, what are you willing to pay for too? Are you willing to give up your social and your time wealth for financial wealth? Like they do all, it is like a web. They all interact and interplay with each other. So that is so great. So this is Sahil Bloom.

I was actually on a panel with him a few weeks ago in Los Angeles, and it was just incredible. It was really, really good. So I'm excited for you guys to listen and share this with your friends. I think this is such a great conversation starter to talk about the areas in your life that you're wealthy, how each impacts one another, and to really look at how you want to spend your time in 2025. Yeah. Thank you all for listening so much. You can subscribe to the pod, follow us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube at Almost 30 Podcast.

And you can listen to Morning Microdose, our clip show, just to give you a little boost every single day. We appreciate you and we'll see you on the other side of this one. Love you guys. Bye. Bye. This episode of Almost 30 is brought to you by Wild Grain. This, I love this brand. It's the first bake from frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, pastries, and pastas.

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I was reading one of your quotes about, you know, a lot of us are like focused on the summit, you know, and not really enjoying or embracing or honoring like the process of it. And I think that speaks to our, like our experience in podcasting where it hasn't always been easy. It hasn't always been this thing that's,

felt natural, but there was always like a pull. And I think what we've learned over like eight years is like, oh, this process has been working on us, you know, as individuals, as a duo, as people on earth, as sisters and wives. And, you know, it's just been such an honor. But to your point, we were just talking about how people kind of dip out, you know, if it doesn't feel successful or is successful. Yeah.

I'm curious, just in your life, like when did the summit become less shiny to you, less of the ultimate goal? And when did the process become more of something that you're just obsessed with? Yeah, that's it's a great question. You articulated it beautifully, which it's something I think about a lot. Is this just this idea that

in achievement-focused culture, which many of us are a part of, especially highly ambitious people,

everything is about that summit. And we assume that all of our happiness is going to be derived by reaching those summits. And what you learn more and more over the course of your life, and I would argue that it's like the accumulation of wisdom, is that the real happiness is like the moment right before you have it. It's not actually having it. It's the process of becoming. It's the hunt. It's the chase. It's the journey.

And it's in the becoming, not in the having. And I would say in my own experience, that has been, that realization has really been a byproduct of fighting my own insecurity. And what I mean by that is I would say that for the first 30 years of my life, most of the decisions that I made were fundamentally grounded in this deep-seated insecurity about who I was.

And when you're insecure, the way that you attack that insecurity is by trying to

slap achievements on. Because what you want is external affirmation. You want other people to think that you're impressive, to tell you that you're great, because you don't feel great inside. You don't feel great about who you are. So you need that. And I needed that. And I chased it. At every single turn, I was trying to do the thing that was going to get me that, that was going to give me that little rush. It's like a drug, right? You're trying to get the external affirmation to feel good.

And it's only when you actually conquer that insecurity, the underlying issue, when you actually look at yourself and start deconstructing that bigger underlying problem that I think you're able to come to terms with it and realize that your true joy is going to be in the becoming. It's going to be in the process. It's going to be on that journey because no one has ever derived lasting fulfillment, joy, happiness, purpose from the summit. Yeah.

Yeah. And I'm just curious how much of an effect, and I feel like it's a big one because I've felt it in my own life, how much an effect social media and people's ability to be public has on that needing of the slapping on of identities or successes or what have you. I just...

Because I'm someone, I think, innately who I'm like, I love the process. Like, I actually want to do it privately and not really show a lot of people my process. But, you know, part of why we've had success is being able to be public and share with people. So how have you kind of, have you grappled with that where it's like this...

this external validation is happening, you know, whether it's on social media or how many people you have subscribed to your newsletter or what have you, like, how do you check yourself in those moments? I have a 24 hour rule with social media, which I've developed to fight back against this. I think I'm going to love it. My rule is that I don't look at the performance of anything that I put up for 24 hours.

And I started doing it because I noticed this exact thing. I noticed that I would spend time like writing something, really crafting it, really immersed in it. And I would be really proud of it. I would put it out and I would look and no one was engaging with it. It wasn't connecting with people in the way that I thought. And I would notice I would now feel bad

about the entire process that I'd put in. When in reality, I was very proud of it. I was really proud of the work. I was happy that I did that. But the result that I was attached to it, the immediate feedback loop was negative. And so I would then say, well, that was a negative process and I would feel bad about it.

That's a really bad thing because then over time what you're going to do is you're going to skew towards things that get the external validation even if they aren't internally validating. You're going to start doing the like clickbait post that gets you a bunch of likes rather than the thing that feels deep and that's going to actually connect with the few people that you really want to connect with.

The 24-hour rule for me just means that when I go back and look at something after 24 hours, I can look at it like a scientist. I can actually go and look at it with a non-emotional lens and say from a scientific perspective, okay, what worked about this? What might have been a little bit better? Could I have drafted it in a slightly different way? And completely removes that like the dopamine loop from it where –

I'm no longer chasing that like quick hit and it makes it just feel much more of like a natural rational view than something irrational that's going to guide me in positive or negative directions. Yeah, I love that rule. Are there any other rules that you have around kind of your daily creating that has helped you with productivity or just being creative?

Same. Yeah. I mean, the biggest macro thing for me is that I've never been focused on the accumulation of like metrics. And so this goes to, I mean, my broader whole thing on money and, you know, redefining what wealth meant to me, which is really like what people want you to focus on on social media is likes, views, followers, et cetera. And my opinion is the real thing that you're trying to build is trust.

Trust is the atomic variable. What do I mean by that? Well, commerce follows trust. If you're trying to build a business, you can build a business around trust. Go back 50 years. Trust was centralized in the hands of a few companies. It was P&G, Johnson & Johnson, the biggest companies in the world, owned all the trust because they owned all the airwaves. They owned all the radio ads, TV, magazines, all of that. So people trusted them. They built commerce on top of it.

Fast forward to today, trust is being rapidly decentralized into the hands of individuals like you, like me, like others that are out there.

And you can build commerce on top of that. But it's trust. It's not followers, likes, views, whatever those numbers are. If you have a million followers, but none of them know who you are and they don't have any trust, you cannot sell five t-shirts to that group of people. If you have a thousand people that truly know you and truly trust you on a specific topic, you can build incredible businesses around that.

trust is the atomic variable. And so for me, the macro perspective was always, I want people to truly know me. I want someone that comes up to me on a street to have the reaction. That's the exact same person that I've been following and engaging with. And that means certain things. That means

I respond to DMs. I don't have EAs on my accounts responding to things. That means I respond to email responses that come into my newsletter. Again, I don't have EAs doing that. There's certain things about it that are totally unscalable and take a ton of time and are challenging, but they actually mean something over long periods of time. Because again, it's stacking that trust given that that is the atomic variable of what I'm really trying to do and build. And I think that's the aspect of it that's felt and people might not be able to...

put words to it or explain why they connect with you over other people. But I, I really appreciate that's where that's the, yeah, that's the je ne sais quoi. That's the focus. And it comes from the heart. You know, I think that's what we also feel in a lot of people's content, whether it's online or elsewhere. But you mentioned wealth and I'm so excited about your new book. Congratulations. I feel like the, the,

little I know about your entire life. I feel like wealth has been a theme where it is

just been this metamorphosis of what it means to you, how you value it. And I really think this is a new paradigm way of thinking about wealth. And I feel like we're at a tipping point. And so to recalibrate what we value, I think is super important and coming from you just in the way that you write. I know it's going to really land with so many people.

Can we go back and talk about your story of wealth? I think a lot of people have like a money story or a success wealth story and how they were brought up to value it. What was yours? So if you go back in time, my upbringing was an interesting one in that I grew up in a mixed race household. So my mom is Indian. She was born and raised in Bangalore, India. My dad is white Jewish from the Bronx, New York.

And my parents have a very unlikely story of meeting, which my mom happened to apply in secret to come to the United States for college, got into school, applied similarly to a master's program, was starting that right as my dad was finishing his dissertation, his Ph.D. program.

And they crossed over by two weeks and happened to run into each other in a library in Princeton, New Jersey, where my mom was working to pay her way through this thing while my dad was finishing his dissertation. And she asked him on a date. And on the first date, they went out and my dad said to her, my father will never accept us. And my mom was so blinded by his use of the word us that she completely missed the underlying message.

And unfortunately, my dad was right. And his father made him choose between my mom or their family. And my dad walked out the door and never saw his family again. So to this day, I never met my father's parents. He has siblings I've never met. I have first cousins out there somewhere that I've never met. All because of this one decision that my dad made to choose love.

And just a part B would did your mom's family have any feelings? My mom's parents were definitely very apprehensive and the first time they met my dad my grandfather Said like, you know, how do your parents feel about this? And you know, ultimately I think they would have had a real problem with it but

What they saw was a man who had given up his whole family for their daughter. And if there was anything that my mom's parents wore, it was loving. And they sort of took my dad in as their son after that. And we ended up having a beautiful relationship. I feel very connected to my Indian side of my family and my Indian culture, cultural heritage as a result of that. But the point being for my own life was...

I grew up in a household where, A, love was at the center of everything, that love and that support. And also, given my father was a professor and my mother is of Indian background, a very academically oriented household. And I had an older sister. She's three and a half years older than me, who was extremely academically motivated and successful. And I grew up slowly convincing myself that I was not the smart one.

Like from a young age, I just remember thinking like my sister's the smart one. I'm kind of the athletic one.

And we were, you know, middle, upper middle class. My dad's a professor, like did well, but he wasn't a businessman. He wasn't making tons and tons of money. I had some very rich friends because of where we lived. And I always knew that they like had more stuff than me. But I never felt I never felt like lacking or that, you know, we went on a couple of vacations a year. We got to we had a house. We always had things that we needed. My parents were always supportive of me.

I don't think I truly appreciated how much I was becoming accustomed to thinking of money as success until I got to college and sort of started working. And really,

really what it was for me was all over those years, it was that idea of chasing the external validation, uh, and to fight the insecurity of not feeling good, not feeling like I was the smart one, not feeling like I was the successful one. So I made decisions all along the way to try to kind of mask that. And it was, you know, uh, going to the biggest name school to go play sports so that I could like, you know, feel like, uh,

like I was successful. It was taking the job that was going to pay me the most so that I could feel successful. It was, you know, all of those little things that you do along the way that you can look back on and say, oh, now I kind of understand the pattern. But in the moment, of course, you're just kind of flowing and trying to figure it out. Well, I think, you know, that that time in our lives that like late teens, early 20s, even mid 20s, you know, there's so much pressure on

an expectation to have your life figured out or at least like pick the path and you know we started the podcast in our late 20's at a time when we're like shouldn't we know more about where we're going who we should be with where we should be what our purposes that cetera and I think we were just sold something different whether it's in school by our family society. I know that you had a reckoning you know and

it's a career reckoning, but I know it was much deeper than that. So can you bring us there? Because I think why it's important, the people listening, so many people listening feel this way in their jobs. You know, I quote, quote it because I think people kind of get confused. Is this my purpose? Is this my job? Should they be the same thing? And, um, can you bring us to that time and what you were really grappling with? Yeah. Um,

- So I took a job out of school at an investment fund when I got done in college. And again, decision was to make money. And that was all based on this premise that

I was one day going to wake up, have enough money that I was all of a sudden happy and successful and secure. And, uh, I was going to be lit, you know, in the idyllic land of success and everything was going to be flowery and beautiful. And every year I got paid a little bit more and, um, I was making money. And every year I convinced myself that I was like one bonus, one promotion, one fancy bottle of wine away from that land. I was just going to land there and wake up one day. Um,

and then i became you know in my late 20s i kept thinking that and one day i woke up and i was 30 years old i was making a bunch of money um and i sort of had this sensation of like is this it is this what i was was i supposed to feel good here because what had happened was from the outside looking in everything was going well and you would have said oh you're successful you're doing well but internally everything was falling apart and i hid that from the world i

I mean, my health was suffering. I was drinking six, seven nights a week. My mental health was really suffering because I just wasn't comfortable with who I was. My relationship with my wife was really suffering. It was the most important person in the world to me. My relationship with my parents was almost nonexistent. I wasn't seeing them. I grew up so, so close to them. My relationship with my sister was nonexistent.

All of these other things were kind of slowly falling apart while from the outside looking in, everything was going great. And I had a conversation with a friend in May of 2021, just a few years ago, that completely changed the course of my life. Um,

got together with him for a drink. We were catching up. He asked how I was. And I said, I'm good, busy, right? Like it's the standard response that you give people when they ask you how you're doing. You say busy. And he kind of looked at me like, okay, how are you doing? And I said, I was struggling with the fact that we lived so far away from my parents. I wasn't seeing them often because we were close. And he asked how old they were. I said, mid-60s. He said, how often do you see them? I said, once a year.

he looked at me and he just said, Okay, so you're going to see them 15 more times before they die. And I remember feeling like I got punched in the gut. I mean, the idea that the amount of time you have left with the people that are closest to you is so finite that you can on a few hands, capture it was so jarring, emotionally and physically,

that it sort of just spiraled me to this like very quick rock bottom moment of sensation uh and the next morning i woke up and i told my wife i thought we needed to make a change and within 45 days i had left my job i we had sold our house in california and we had moved back across the country to live closer to our parents wow and the most beautiful piece of it which i share for the first time in the book i've never talked about it publicly was

you know, along this whole period where things were struggling internally, my wife and I had been trying to conceive and unable to. And in hindsight, that was a burden that my wife was really carrying in a big way. It's something that people don't feel comfortable talking about. It's something that a lot of women hold on their own backs as something wrong with them. And she was definitely feeling that way.

And only now I can realize it was really probably on me. I was not internally in the right place. My energy, physically, stress levels, it could have been any number of things. Because within two weeks of getting home, my wife got pregnant naturally. Right before she was about to start all of these nasty treatments and all of these things that she was going to have to do, she got pregnant. And, you know, now we have a two and a half year old beautiful little boy. And I just think about that now looking back on it, that like,

reminder that when your energy comes into alignment, everything comes into alignment in life. And it's such a beautiful example of just that. Yeah. It's such a great example of so many things. The first is just that idea that, and I experienced this with our son where I felt like his

soul that's what I feel like it was this whole was kind of working with us well before he came. So whether it's where you are physically your relationship with your partner or maybe I had some friendships that I needed to kind of tend to and maybe let go of before I conceived and just really interesting ways in which I believe the spirit of the babe is like working with us beforehand.

So that's a really just beautiful story. Not everybody listens to those pings. Not everybody recognizes those, like, call it sliding door moments. I mean, or that conversation with your friend. I mean, what would you say to people who are really stuck in that?

the grind, you know, like just the day to day that feels like they cannot change the tide. You know, they're just stuck because I think hearing that story, I'm like,

Oh, you were you were aware enough to let that story hit you and go quite deep. And I think people are going so fast. They're so focused on the wrong things that they don't hear the message that's for them in that moment. What would you say to those people? That feeling of being stuck.

that feeling of being lost, not knowing what to do, I fundamentally think is always about one thing, which is you don't feel that you have the power to take an action and create an outcome. And when you don't feel like you have that power, that manifests as feeling stuck, feeling lost, feeling directionless.

you need to reassume that power and control in your life. And it can come in the tiniest way. Doing one tiny action that creates one tiny outcome proves to you that you do have the power to create change in your life. And so what I always tell people when they're feeling that is just do something. It doesn't have to be the dramatic. I did something dramatic.

I don't, I won't ever go to someone and say, hey, do the crazy, go quit your job and do this and go run in the opposite direction. Crazy. But do one little thing that reminds you that you are capable of it. Step away from that relationship that is pulling you down, draining your energy. You know, have the hard conversation. Go work out every morning for a week. Just do something.

something that creates that little bit of evidence to remind you that you are in control, that you actually do have the power to take an action and create an outcome. Because that, it doesn't matter what it is, because the point is that that has ripple effects into everything else that you do in life.

And for me, the reason I was empowered to make that big change was because I had spent the year prior making tiny little changes. And I had over and over again on a daily basis done little things that reminded me that I was in control. And that was I was writing every single day. I was sharing things. People were interacting with it. I started to build little businesses, little things where I had a whole bunch of information and evidence floating around that I could then kind of use as like my safety. Like I felt empowered.

to make that big decision. So you see the big decision. What you don't see is all of the tiny little things that I had done along the way to firm me up, to make me feel strong, to empower me for that. The one other thing I will say is in that moment where I felt that powerlessness when my friend said that to me and I went home and I said to my wife that I thought we needed to make a change. And I, I told her, I don't really know what I'm going to do. Um,

I don't have another job. It's not like I have some great investing job lined up. I'm working in the world of investing. We're making good money. My colleagues are great. I love the firm. There were a lot of reasons why it was a really good path, but I feel like we need to make a change for this broader life reason. And she just looked at me and just said, I believe in you and you'll figure it out. And there's something almost impossible to define, but so powerful about having one person in your life

that believes in you before you believe in yourself. That it makes you unbeatable. I mean, it makes you so powerful, almost immortal in that moment if you just have that one person. And when you have that one person, your only job is to make sure they know how important they are to you in your life. Because you're lucky if you have one. You're unbelievably lucky and blessed if you have two or three. Right.

And it might be your parents, might be a sibling, it might be your partner, but just find that one person and then be that to someone else when they're in that moment. Because the impact that it can have and the ripple effect of being there for that person in that moment is extraordinary. It's extraordinary. Yeah, I'm so glad you shared that because I feel like we can feel so alone. You know, we can feel so alone in our pursuit of fill in the blank. And, you know, you talk about this where, you know,

As human beings, we are just innately social creatures and we need each other. We need connection. And I think we live in a world now where we're all kind of on our phones and in our own little world and we're not truly connected, generalized statement. But I feel like that is, it's just such a superpower. I remember with all of my senses moments when someone has looked at me and just said,

spoken into me that truth of you can do this or this is an incredible idea. Go do it. Why not? You know, just that, that, that truth that I can't see because I'm so caught up in the, yeah, but what if it fails, you know, the what ifs. So yeah, thank you for sharing that and the pouring into that person and making them understand that they are so important. How do you do that with your wife? And now I think it's just daily, um,

vocalized appreciation. I mean, my, my number one rule for any relationship is to vocalize appreciation daily. I mean, tell your partner one thing you appreciate about them every single day. And it doesn't matter if it's tiny or if it's huge. I mean, if like I am, my love language is acts of service. Um, my wife's love language is touch. If, um,

she refills a soap dispenser. Like I experienced that as love and vocalizing that, that I appreciated that thing is incredible because the lack of appreciation is where relationships go to die, especially after having a kid, by the way. Oh my God. I mean, I, I remember the, um, I remember those like early months, the first six months after having a child where, um,

you know, my wife is going through all these physical and mental changes, hormones and all of these things. And the house is chaotic and we're not sleeping as much. And there's this thing that's now the most important for both of you. And you are both sort of second fiddle to each other. There's all these things that are changing. And if you lose sight of that,

and you stop vocalizing that appreciation daily, it's very easy to see why relationships suffer post having a child. 80% of married couples say that their relationship got worse in the year after having a child, which is so sad because it's the most beautiful, incredible spiritual experience in the world.

But that's the reason they get worse is because there's something new in your life and you forget how important each other. You forget about that vocalization of the appreciation that you feel. It doesn't mean you don't feel it, but if you forget to vocalize it, it doesn't matter if you felt it or not because the other person doesn't know. So I am a huge believer in that. And just as a broader rule for life with relationships...

I said this to someone, I was at this retreat this weekend with a whole bunch of really amazing people that I've admired for a long time. And someone had

uh, spoken up during one of the sessions and said something interesting. And, uh, I went over to them at the lunch afterwards and just said, I really loved what you said. And they were like, Oh my God, thank you so much for letting me know. And they were truly like, no one had just said that to them. And I told them it's one of my rules in life that if you think something nice about someone, you have to go tell them because you never know. They could be the smartest person in the world, but if no one went and said that to them, they didn't feel that they

that feeling, that boost, that nice. And it's a tiny thing you can do. It costs nothing. You send the text, say the thing to them, whatever it is. And it really creates these incredible ripples out in the world if you just do it on a consistent basis. And by the way, if nothing else, too, it feels so good. It feels so good. It feels so good to see someone on the street and be like,

Those pants look amazing on you. I just want to say, you know, whatever. It could be so surface level or to say like, oh my gosh, your smile just made my day. You know, things like that. I think, and I, yeah, I catch myself in moments where it's like, if the moment has passed, I'm like, why didn't we say anything? So I'm, I'm grateful for that, for that reminder, because again, I think that's why,

we've kind of lost that just natural connection with people, you know, because we're afraid to say anything.

we're too busy. We're not, our heads are not up looking at people. So it's a beautiful reminder. Yeah. And then, I mean, just think about the ripple effect of that. I mean, people ask me what I do for a living or what my purpose is. I always say that it's to create positive ripples in the world. And what better way to create a positive ripple than to just say something nice, unsolicited to someone you don't really know. Yeah. Think about how, like, if I say to you, I love your pants, you're walking down the street,

You're going to feel good that someone just said that to you. And then you're probably going to like go hold the door for someone because you're in a better mood. Or you're going to go home and you're going to be a little bit nicer to your child or you're going to interact with your husband a little bit. It has these legitimate ripples that extend beyond from just one little thing. It's like be the change you want to see in the world, right? It's beautiful. Yeah.

Just double clicking on the parent piece and becoming parents and just maintaining a relationship because I know there are a lot of parents out there. What have you learned about yourself as a husband in becoming a father? So much. The first thing I will say, which has nothing to do with me being a husband, is I

There is absolutely nothing in the world like a mother's love for their child. And seeing my wife with my son has given me a newfound appreciation for my mom's love for me.

And has made me appreciate and understand my mom in an entirely new way. Yeah. I mean, I spent my whole childhood being embarrassed by my mom. Being like, why does my mom get so emotional at all these random events and games and all these things? And when I see my wife now with my son, like do the tiniest little thing.

adjust the pillow slightly so that his head's falling a little bit more comfortably. Like give him a little kiss when he's stirring while he's asleep. These tiny little things that you will never know about. Like he will never know how much his mom loves him. And so I think about it now that one of my only duties as a father is for him to know as he gets older, how much his mother loves him and just how important that relationship is. Because to me, one of my

goals in life is I want my son, I want my wife to be okay whether or not I'm around. And it's a terrifying thought. But the ultimate feeling of safety and security to me is to know that they will be good without me.

And when I see them together and I feel that way, there's nothing that makes me happier in the world than seeing that love and that connection and that bond that they have. So I feel like I have to articulate that because it's just it's too important. The other thing I would just say is becoming a father has given me a deep, visceral understanding of the fact that not all time is created equal.

The ancient Greeks had this idea that there were two types of time. Chronos, which meant like chronological time, normal, how we think of time. And then kairos, which was something different. It was much more about the sort of qualitative textured nature of time, that there were certain moments that carried higher import, that they were, that that moment of time was just more important than the others.

And I think becoming a father, I've realized that there are these windows of time that are just more important than others, and you will never get them back. So I think about it in the context now with my son, that there is a 10-year window where you are your child's entire world, where you are your child's favorite person in the entire world. And then after that,

They have new favorite people. They have best friends. They have girlfriends, boyfriends, partners, spouses, children of their own. They've gone off and lived their own lives. But during this first 10 years of their life, you are literally their entire world. And yet we live in a culture and in a society where that also happens to be the period of time where we are hustling and chasing and going after whatever more it is that we're going after.

And so balancing that tension, balancing my own desire, my own ambitions to create more, to impact more, to do all these more things with the realization that my son is only going to be two and a half once. My son's only going to be a three-year-old, a four-year-old.

It's not going to be here forever. He's only going to want me to wrestle with him in bed for a few more years. He's not going to want me to kiss him before bed. He's not going to want me to hold his hand walking down the sidewalk. He's not going to want me to take him for a walk to go get a bagel on a Sunday. Those moments are countable the same way the number of times I had left with my parents was countable. These moments are countable.

And recognizing that in the moment, to me, is the most important thing. Because it's that awareness that allows you to take action to change it. When I talk about with my parents the 15 times I had left before they passed away,

You can create time. I moved across the country. We made a change and that number 15 turned into hundreds. I see my parents every other week now. So we literally created time. We created moments with the people we care about most by making a change. By taking an action, we created an outcome. Recognizing that, taking back that power in your own life to prioritize the things that really matter to you, to prioritize your true north, you can completely change your world.

Yeah, this is I want to dig in here because the I think what people really internally grapple with is like the fact that perhaps they're on the young end of their life. They should, you know, front load the grind and push and, you know, creating whatever they want to create generational wealth, you know, setting their family up, etc.,

And at the same time, to your point, you know, it's at the same time that their children are kind of in those very impressionable years. What would you say to them? Because I actually don't I struggle with it all the time. Yeah.

Is it is it a day to day moment by moment thing or is it a larger could do you have to zoom out? What is what is your approach? I think there are a few things that, you know, and I by no means have the answer to this, but I will tell you how I wrestle with the question because I think it's the most important question. First off.

I think that prioritizing and building a base of financial wealth during your 20s is an important thing. If you just think about compounding, compounding is returns to the power of time. Time is the exponent. That's the most important thing. So the amount of time that you get to compound that is going to set you up well. So prioritizing that prior to having children during your 20s, whenever you're young, is important, setting yourself up. That being said, once you have children...

The idea of why is very important. And what I mean by that is children don't understand why you're doing what you're doing naturally. They fill it with the worst case. When you're gone, they fill it with, they don't care about me. They fill it with, they're just absent. They're not here. They're not at the recital. They're not at the game. They're not home for dinner, whatever it is. They'll fill it with the worst unless you fill it with the truth.

which is that you're working to provide for the family, that you're working on things that light you up energetically, that you're so excited about building because you're trying to create an impact in the world or you're trying to build this business, whatever it might be. You need to tell them that why. You need to include them in the why of what you are doing. And I think about my own father and how I learned this was my dad worked extraordinarily hard on things that he really cared about.

But I always knew what he was working on and why he cared about it, why it mattered to him and why I felt I was a part of the journey as a result. And that's really important because then you're all on the mission together. You've now all of a sudden, like you've brought your child onto that mission with you. They're no longer a second fiddle that's getting chosen between the work and them. They're a part of it. And I think that that's a...

conscious effort that can be made to include your children in that. Obviously, my two and a half year old son is not going to truly understand these things yet. But soon, can I bring him to, you know, when I'm traveling next year for all of the book related launch events, can I bring him so that he starts to understand what I'm doing and the things that I'm doing and that dad really cares about the message and this impact that he's trying to create? I think so. I think you can. So I think that's one. The second thing

is there's a big difference between time and energy. You might spend an hour with someone, but if I have my phone out and we're spending an hour together and I have my phone out and I'm emailing and doing other things the whole time, we're not going to have had a very deep connection during that hour. Similarly, if I spent 15 minutes with you, but I am so focused on you and hearing you and seeing you and listening to you, we're going to feel very connected.

The exact same principle applies to children and your relationships. If you get home from work at the end of a long day and you have 15 minutes with your kids before bed and you're sitting there still thinking about work and you're stressed and you're kind of upset about something that happened and

Those 15 minutes are going to be like nothing. But if you're there, and I remember this with my own father, he would come home from work exhausted, I'm sure, from like a long day of really intellectually challenging work. And if I said like, Dad, I want to play catch, he's out in the backyard with me. And I know how tiring that must have been for him. Now I can appreciate it. At the time, I was just like, oh, yeah, my dad plays catch with me. I just took it for granted.

But now I understand it. And that's a decision. That's a choice that I'm just going to say yes. If my kid wants to play with me in the backyard, I could be exhausted. I'm saying yes. I'm just doing it. Because again, the 10 years is all you get. And then it's gone. And you're not getting it back. There's no later. I always say life is filled with laters. You say, oh yeah, I'm going to focus on my health later. I'm going to spend more time with my kids later. The problem is

That later doesn't exist because by the time later comes around, your kids aren't going to be three years old anymore. Your health is not going to be the same at 50 as it is at 30. These things don't exist. So the later, it's not possible. So either you build it into your life now, you design your life around it now, or you're just going to regret it later. Yes. And I think with kids...

you know, the earlier the better, even if they don't understand or you think they don't understand. I think it's more so for us to develop a habit, you know, a pattern that they recognize kids love patterns. Have you seen this study that they've done in like in rats around like connection with parents? Tell me more. This is, I recently read this and it's amazing. So they studied these lab rats and they separated them from their mothers.

And then what they did was they reconnected them and then observed the stress response of those rats that had been separated from their mothers. The single greatest determining factor for whether they had a healthy stress response or a very negative stress response was

was how much licking had occurred upon return with the mother. So the mothers that showed more affection and love upon return, those children, those small lab rats, were then much better equipped to deal with stress after the fact. So that knowledge that you were loved, that you were supported,

that someone has your back is unbelievably impactful. And you see it. Like if you go to a restaurant and you see parents with a toddler dining, the toddler starts to like run away from the table. The toddler will always like get 10 feet away, look back,

at the parents. And if they notice that the parents are looking, they'll run away further because they know someone has their back. That's what kids want. Kids want to know that there is someone that supports them and loves them. That feeling of connection is built before they understand anything, before they can articulate it vocally, they feel it. It starts in the womb. You know, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's innate. Um,

I want to stick with the time wealth and the new book, The Five Types of Wealth. I feel like time is one. Like you said, it just I think for me, I've been thinking about my own mortality, which is kind of interesting. But ever since having a child, I don't I just think about life.

the time I have like more so the future than I think when I was younger, I was thinking about, you know, the decisions I could have made. And yeah, it's, it's, it's a beautiful thing. And I feel like has opened my heart even more, but it's also emotional and kind of sometimes, you

makes me get really honest and sometimes sad about how I'm spending my time right now. So, um, one thing I, I, I loved was this idea of the, the time billionaire. Can you just describe and explain? Yeah. So the time billionaire I first came across, uh, from an investor named Graham Duncan, who, uh,

is a well-known investor. And he basically, when I spoke to him, he told me he had interviewed hundreds of young people for jobs at this firm. And what he said was basically they all want to become billionaires. They're young, they're ambitious, they're trying to work in the investment industry. They all want to become billionaires. And what he noticed was that none of them were relating to themselves as time billionaires, meaning there's about 11 days and a million seconds, but there's 30 years and a billion seconds. A billion seconds is 30 years.

And so when you're 20 years old, you on average have probably about 2 billion seconds left in your life. You are quite literally a time billionaire. When you're 50 years old, you have about a billion seconds left in your life. But you don't think of time as being that valuable, important asset. And at the end of the day, it is the most important asset. You ask someone, would you trade lives with Warren Buffett?

He has $130 billion, but I'm willing to bet you would not trade lives with him because he's 95 years old. You are not going to trade the amount of time you have left for all of the money that he has. And similarly, he would probably trade all $130 billion to be 30 again or to be 35 or 40 again. And so what you're saying is that that time has enormous incalculable value. And yet you take actions on a daily basis.

that are spitting on that time, that are disrespecting the fact that you have it and that it has so much real tangible value in your life.

So the call to action around it is to wake up and treat yourself like you are a time billionaire. Take advantage of that time you have now to do those things that you really care about, to be pulled towards those things that you feel energetically pulled towards, to spend time with the people that really matter to you, to say no to the people that are pulling you down in life, to do those things now because that time has real value.

What have you done recently to really respect the time that you have? I've done a lot. I mean, I made a lot of changes in my life over the last few years.

I think the most important exercise around this that you can do is I call my energy calendar. It's the idea of basically looking at your time through the lens of energy. So look at how you spend a week, what you're doing and who you're spending it with. And actually color code your calendar according to whether the activity was energy creating, meaning you felt good from it, or energy draining, meaning you felt bad. Green versus red.

At the end of a week, you can get a very clear sense of the trends, the type of activities and the type of people that are creating energy in your life versus draining energy from your life.

Now, you're never going to have a world where it's entirely green. We all have to spend time on things or with people that may drain our energy. But can you work towards a world that is a whole lot more green than red? I think so, probably, making tiny changes along the way over long periods of time. And that dramatically changes how your time feels. It changes the texture of it. It changes how you live, actually how your energy is during the course of your weeks.

Because time well spent is time that is energetically fulfilling. It's things that are lifting you up. It's people that are lifting you up. Time poorly spent is the time that's pulling you down, that's making you feel bad. So making those changes over periods of time is, I think, the real focus. I mean, for me, it was simple things. Like I find phone calls and Zoom meetings unbelievably draining. Yes.

And you can make small changes that I can't get rid of those on my calendar. But going for a walk while doing a phone call, I find energy creating. Now I'm walking outside, there's fresh air, I'm really focused, I'm sort of like feeling more Zen. That is a simple change I can make to a lot of my calls that all of a sudden make them from red to green. And now at the end of a week, it makes a big difference. At the end of a month, it makes an enormous difference. At the end of a year, your whole life feels different.

Yeah, that's a big one. And the walking. So I know you... I was listening to a podcast you were on and this was in January. So maybe things have changed, but you don't meditate. But your form of meditation is different. And I love this idea. I really relate. I'm very connected to just moving my body and that makes me feel more centered. So what does meditation look like for you? And...

why is it important that we kind of like I feel like in the self help, spirituality space, there's all these prescriptive things that we hold on these pedestals. And then if we don't do them that way, then we're not doing it right. So just liberate us around meditation. Yeah. And you're talking to a guy who was very much a

a follower of all of those things. I mean, I like I viewed meditation as I needed to put on a brainwave sensing headband and like, you know, really crush my meditation or like if I was going to journal, I needed to journal for an hour every day and like write amazingly thoughtful things. And I was letting in hindsight optimal get in the way of beneficial. I was trying to make everything optimal, but I was not then sticking to something and I wasn't finding the way that worked for me.

What I write about in the book and the right way that I articulate this is this is all about creating your version of space in your life.

There's this idea that everything that comes in is this stimulus, and then you have to respond, right? Like our whole life is a stimulus and then a response. And the challenge that happens is when there's no space between stimulus and response. You have things hitting you, and then you're immediately reacting to them in the world. Like something comes in, you're immediately responding. Someone bothers you, you're immediately replying.

The ability to create space is quite literally creating space between the stimulus that hits you and your need to respond. And that space is what people are doing when they're meditating. It's creating that stillness to allow yourself to choose your response. It allows you to be more measured. It allows you to wait 24 hours before you look at the results of your post, whatever it is.

That space can be created however you want. I don't care if you want to sit and meditate in a nice chair for an hour, if you want to go for a walk for five minutes, if you want to sit quietly in a bathtub at the end of the day, if you want to go in the sauna, cold plunge, whatever is your way, you need to make sure that you create space in your life. And it doesn't have to be for an hour. You might only have five minutes. But find ways during your daily life to create that space. For me,

I go for a walk every single morning. I sit in the sauna in the evening. I take a five-minute walk between meetings if I can. I'll do a couple push-ups if I need to, to just like spark some energy, go for a walk after lunch. Little things for me that allow me to just slow down, to like get out of the pattern of just having stimulus and immediate response.

And that really does change your world. If you can create a little bit of space, Viktor Frankl said that our power is in the space that we can create between stimulus and response. And it's really true. Yeah. It's a feeling when I, when I'm able to do that, the feeling is becoming unplugged from, you know, call it whatever you want. Maybe it's the matrix, maybe it's whatever your own little matrix that you've created. And, and it's like in that space too, that I know the truth.

You know, I think when I'm kind of in the grind or whatever that is, I tend to be very impressionable and take on other people's thoughts or opinions and I forget my own. So I really kind of abandoned myself. And when I'm able to take space, walks are my thing, too.

I all of a sudden hear my own thoughts and I'm like, oh, that's how you feel. Well, that's not how you've been making your decisions or how you've been moving throughout your day. So yeah,

I agree with you. Just finding that way to create space is so, so important and it can look however you want. And it can be spiritual. I mean, people find it in prayer. People find it in community, in church. People find it, you know, on their own in stillness, whatever it is. The point is, and with all of this stuff, like you say, you know, a lot of people are like feeding you, like you have to do it this way, otherwise it's wrong. And my biggest gripe with the entire world of like self-help is, you know,

It's all about answers. Everyone's trying to force an answer down your throat. And the whole book and what I hope comes across as people read it is this is not about giving you the answers for your life. This is about helping you ask better questions, helping you wrestle with the questions so that you can come to your own answers of what works and what doesn't work in your life.

Because no one is the same. No one is going to have, I can't tell you my routine and have it work perfectly for you. Because we have entirely different nervous systems. We have whole different mental states. Like there's too many things that are different to feed someone an answer that will work for them. What they need to do is spend more time with the questions. If you sit with the questions, you come to your own answers that work in your life. How do people ask better questions?

I think you need to spend time with them. You need to create, um, you need to create more space that you can sit with yourself. Uh, you know, one of the things I say is we all have the correct answers within us, but we need to ask the questions that actually reveal those that shine the light. It's what I really, it's what I've tried to do with the book is, you know, each section of the book has one big question, um, around that type of wealth. And, um,

the point of that question is to spark you to start thinking, to start asking more, to start questioning things. Question those assumptions that have been underlying so much of what you've been doing. And like, is that right? Does that actually make sense? Or is that just something I've believed for my whole life? I say it at the beginning that like,

Mark Twain is often quoted as having said, it ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. And for me, like I knew for sure that making a bunch of money was going to land me in this land of happiness and success, that I was going to crush it and that life was going to be good and stress free and everything was going to be good. I knew for sure.

And ultimately, it was something that just wasn't so. And it took me questioning it. It took me going through a really challenging time mentally and physically and emotionally to recognize that fact, that there was something that just wasn't so, that I had believed so firmly. And so questioning that in your own life, what are those things that I know for sure that might not be so? What do you feel like holds people back from asking those questions?

types of questions. It's scary. Yeah, it's so scary. It's much safer. It's much safer to just go with the status quo and it's much more convenient and it's much easier. And it's, um, it's hard to confront cultural status quo. It's hard to live differently in a world that wants you to be the same. It's hard to stand out in a world that just wants sameness and everything is like, uh,

this fight for your distinctiveness. I write about that. I think it was Jeff Bezos that wrote this, his last shareholder letter at Amazon. He writes about how you have to fight every single day for your distinctiveness. It's like every single day you pay a price for your distinctiveness through actual energy and effort that has to be pushed out into the world. And it's very true. It's much easier to just live a life of sameness, to just allow the things that are unique about you to fade and to just blend in with the crowd. Yeah.

But all of the real joy, all of the real fulfillment is found in allowing those things, those pattern interrupts, those things that are different about you, allowing them to shine through. But you can't make the mistake of thinking that it's free. It takes effort. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think oftentimes these big questions or the right questions catapult us into an unknown. And I think we've become very averse to the unknown. And I think part of the reason, in my experience, is because the unknown can be just incredibly lonely. And so I would love to talk about social wealth because...

I hear it in your work. I hear it. I was listening to Dr. Mark Hyman the other day. He talks about this on, you know, just from a physician's perspective, that loneliness is more of a health hazard and impacting our health than we think. Can you talk about what you found in your research and just why social wealth is something that we need to be focused on?

So Dr. Margaret Mead was a famous anthropologist, and she was once asked what the first sign was of human civilized civilization. And people thought she was going to answer and say something interesting like tools or something like that. And she said it was a healed, broken femur.

And you kind of wonder why, like, what do you mean by that? And a femur is this long bone in your leg, and it takes a very, very long time to heal. And so what her rationale was, was that

prior to civilized civilization. A broken femur was a death sentence. You broke your femur and people would leave you behind and they would move on and just have to leave you for dead. A healed broken femur meant that you had been cared for. It meant that people went out of their way because they valued you to take care of you, to allow you to heal and recover. And so that was the sign. That was something that made us uniquely human that allowed us to thrive was this connection, was this caring for one another. That is something that has now

flow that through society over the years, it is so integral to who we are as humans. And today, there is scientific evidence that

The strength of our relationships determines our health outcomes in our life. The Harvard study of adult development was this amazing study done over the course of 80 plus years, 1300 participants from all walks of life. And they found that the single greatest predictor of your health at age 80 was your relationship satisfaction at age 50. How you felt about your relationships at age 50 was the single greatest predictor of your health at age 80. And yet,

A lot of us neglect those relationships. A lot of us don't take the time to recognize those people in our world that are so incredible. A lot of us allow negative relationships to linger for way too long, allow those toxic relationships to persist, to drag us down. And I think that if more people spent time really contemplating the importance of having a few close connected relationships in their life, it would make a big difference. Um,

I share it in the book. The way I've always thought about this is there's depth and then there's breadth. Depth is just a few close relationships. You don't need to be best friends. You don't need to have hundreds of close relationships. You need a few close, connected relationships. And then breadth is all about those larger circles that you're connected to. And that doesn't need to be, again, hundreds and hundreds of friends. But having those couple of communities that you're a part of, those

broader circles, whether it's a church group or a local community center or running club or something that you feel connected to that extends outside yourself. That is really what it's about, that breadth. And then it's that depth with a few.

yeah and i i've had to think about this myself there have been times in my life where i haven't really prioritized my relationships or i felt like i just kind of kept it to my nuclear family and i think one of the reasons why was because deep relationships really call us to the next level of us you know and that is not always easy

you know, love doesn't always look like, you know, agreeing with the other person or, you know, just ease and flow. It can, but I think, um,

I would run away from relationships, friendships, romantic that kind of challenged me. And an example is my husband who I met 12 years ago. And I was like, Oh no, no, no, this, no, this feels a little too, like I would really have to step up. I would really have to step up in this relationship. And at 25, I'm not, I'm not there. Um,

But now it's one of the most valuable relationships because I know that we will always call each other to that next level of experience and just love and what have you. So just my own observation of why I think sometimes it's hard. Yeah. And I think the TikTokization or Instagramification or whatever you want to call it of relationships is a really unhealthy thing. Yeah. Because...

It has sold you this lie that relationships are about the beautiful filtered image and the falling in love phase, the beautiful vacations and the nice dates and the dinners and all of those really manicured pictures and images. When in reality,

Deep relationships are built by crawling through the mud with people. Deep relationships are about the struggle. It's about the growing, not the falling. I don't know about you, but like my experience with lingerie or just intimates in the past, like has been, um,

Like, they don't really fit right. They hug parts of my body that just like, I'm like, what is this cut? What is this? Like, it's just not comfortable. I want to be wearing underwear and a bra and not feel like I'm wearing an underwear and a bra. And Skims has really...

answered my prayers. Um, I've been raving about skims, bras and underwear since I got them. I've been wearing them for years, like pre-pregnancy. Honestly, I like wore them through pregnancy cause they stretch with my body and I just love them so freaking much. I love the fits everybody dipped front thong. This is my go-to. I stopped wearing thongs for years. I really hated the feeling of them. Then I found skims and I was like, oh

Like, oh my God, it just molds to my body. It feels like I'm wearing nothing at all. And I literally have gotten them in like every color and I'm obsessed. I've also just told all my friends about them because that's what girlfriends do. To bed at night, I wear the fits everybody full brief. I just love like the coverage and support and it's super, super comfy.

And then I love to match my bralette with my underwear. So I have the fits everybody scoop bralette. That's like my go-to. It's, um, been great after I've stopped breastfeeding, my boobs just like need support. So, um, this, this product pretty, pretty much got me through, um, postpartum days and it's been really, really helpful, um, and cute. It's actually very cute. So shop skims is

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I feel young. My biological age is 25. Thank you very much. But I am getting older, right? That's just kind of a fact of life. And I want to make sure I am the healthiest version of myself as I get older. And I have been loving this supplement and I wanted to share it with you. It's from a brand called Timeline. And I've been obsessed with Mito Pure. So Mito Pure is a precise dose of the rare postbiotic urolithin A. And it's a

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just an incredible difference in my energy levels. I feel like I'm having better workouts. I've been working out more and thought I was going to be like so tired and blah, but I actually feel amazing and super strong. I feel like I'm recovering better. So it's been really amazing. I might appear as shown to deliver double digit increases in muscle strength and endurance and

I'm sure you've heard about the importance of building muscle as you get older. So this is just really, really important. Cellular health is the foundation of wellbeing and longevity. So I really love taking Moda Pure to support my cells, recharging them and just feeling so much better. It's research-backed.

check out their website. You'll learn a ton. Timeline is offering 10% off your order of Mito Pure when you go to timeline.com slash almost 30. That's T-I-M-E-L-I-N-E.com slash almost 30. I would love to talk about another type of wealth that you would love to share with the audience. The rest is in the book, but I love this theme because it's really shifting how I'm thinking about

Yeah, where I really value success. Yeah. I mean, I would love to talk about financial wealth and in a slightly different lens than what people are used to talking about it. So financial wealth is the fifth type of wealth in this book. And it's fifth for a reason. There's plenty of books on money, on finance, on building your financial wealth. And I take a different lens at this, which is

that the most important thing in your quest for financial wealth is to define what your version of enough means. It is that your expectations are your greatest financial liability.

Your expectations for what your life looks like are your greatest financial liability. Because if your expectations grow faster than your assets, you are never going to feel rich. You are never going to feel wealthy. Because what you expect for your life is constantly outpacing your ability to go and meet that. And I know tons of people that feel that way. Ultra, ultra rich people who are some of the most miserable people that I know.

who have so many other problems that they've created in their life because they've constantly chased that version of more. And we can see it, right? Like,

Forbes cover stories, people that are these amazing people that ended up in jail because for whatever reason, they start doing illegal things to keep chasing this version of more. And we've seen it, right? Like Elizabeth Holmes with Theranos or Sam Bankman Freed with FTX, all these examples of these people that are lauded for the things that they're doing that somehow somewhere along the way get lost in that chase and make a slip. And then they make a bigger slip and they cover it up. Bernie Madoff being one of the biggest examples of all time. Yes.

It is such a constant in history. And it only comes from this

inability to define what enough means, an inability to actually rationally clearly understand what your enough life looks like. And I've said this over and over again. The wealthiest I have ever felt in my entire life is when I was able to take my son in the pool at 1 p.m. on a Tuesday. I will never feel richer than when I'm able to do that because that is about so much more than the money. Sure, it's

having the place where I'm able to do that, living in a place where there's a pool and we can go in and do that. But more so, it's about having the relationship with my son where he wants to go do that with me. More so, it's about having the time freedom that at 1 p.m. on a Tuesday, I can go and do that. It's about being healthy enough that I can get into the pool and throw him around. It's about these other things that contribute to my feeling of wealth. And I've said this to my wife over and over again, that I feel we have enough.

And that doesn't mean that I'm not going to continue to try to build, try to do things, try to create more impact in the world. But it's not going to be because of a chase for money. It's going to be because I'm trying to do something meaningful, that I'm trying to create something. And I believe that money is a byproduct of that, that it will create more. But that's not going to be the leading factor of what I'm trying to do. And are you checking yourself in terms of in that –

building, are you making sure that you're not sacrificing, say, time with your family or just kind of doing that little checks and balances system for yourself? Always. And it's the reason that

The five types of wealth as a construct I find so important because and what the book offers is this way where you can think about it when you're making decisions. So before, the only thing you measure is financial wealth. If someone offers you an opportunity and they say, hey, I'm going to pay you $10 million to come work next year, Sahil.

For the next three years, I'll pay you $10 million for the next three years to come and work. Oh, hell yeah, right? Like your response immediately is like, oh, that's the one thing I'm measuring. I'm going to make a whole lot of that. Okay, great. I'm going to go do it. But now contemplated in the construct of all of it. Now they tell you, okay, you're going to have to work 100 hours a week. You're going to be away from your family 250 days a year. And you're going to be stressed out of your mind. Would you do it?

My answer is a definitive no, because I'm not willing to trade those other types of wealth. I'm not willing to trade the time with my son, for sure, and my wife. I'm definitely not willing to trade my physical and mental health that it's going to deteriorate and being pulled away from my family, the people that I care about most, my social wealth. So something that looked like a big win before in the context of your broader life, I'm now able to evaluate it and say, that doesn't seem like such a win. It's actually I'm losing in all these other areas just for this one thing to go up.

And so I'm constantly doing that. And I think about it on a daily basis, opportunities that come my way that I turn down because I'm not willing to give up this time that I have with my son or these moments or my health or my routines, the things that I feel like really contribute to me feeling like I'm living a nice ideal life. And the important piece with this idea of enough is that you put it into your rational mind. So what happens to most people

is they say, okay, I will feel like I have enough when I have a house and I can support my family. And then they get that. And then their definition of enough is three cars, a month of vacation a year, two houses, and then they get that. And then it's like, okay, well, I'd really like a big boat. So the definition creeps up. And that is natural. That will happen. But

but making it a rational creep rather than a subconscious one, making it a conscious upward tick rather than a subconscious is the piece. That's, that is basically all we can really hope for because we will have this desire to continue to build, continue to grow. You are ambitious. You're not going to fully fight that, but you can make it conscious rather than subconscious. And when it's conscious, are you,

you, I guess, how do you keep it conscious? You know, is it just kind of like, oh, my next goal is to buy a boat and that's all good. It is. It is. I think it's clearly defining it in the book. I have an exercise to actually define the enough life. Like, what does it look like? Where are you? What are you doing? Where do you live? How do you feel? Who are you with? Really define it so that you know what it looks like. And once you have it, then you can say, okay,

this next level, what is it going to require? What are the trade-offs of these other types of wealth? Because then I can start to actually play the game. I can start to actually think about, am I willing to make those trade-offs or should I just continue building these other types of wealth and allow the financial side, we're in the world of enough. And what is going to make me feel more wealthy is...

getting in the best shape of my life so that I can, you know, throw my kid around in the pool and feel good. And you see this, right? Like there's a lot of really wealthy businessmen who are deeply unhealthy. Yes. And

Later in life, they realize, oh, shit, like, you know, I'm pre-diabetic or oh, shit, I can't walk up the stairs without being out of breath. I mean, now you see like, you know, Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos getting super fit and jacked and doing all these things because they realize that physical health. Yes. You can't do much of anything without your physical health. And the problem is if you let it fade for too long, it's very hard to get it back. It's very hard to reverse it. Yeah.

Um, so it is, it's important. It's making it rational so that you can then start thinking about the different levers in your life and be methodical about it. Yeah. Yeah. The health, health is truly wealth. Um, and I feel like, I feel like people have to kind of reprogram, um, how they spend their money. I feel like people spend money on certain things, um,

that are very like quick hits and health is a piece where it over time it's like an investment over time, you know LeBron spending apparently a million dollars a year on his body, you know you see over time how it is really created a life for him and you know freedom in some people's minds, you know, he's still working so much but

It's not going to be that instant hint. And I think we have to reevaluate like where we're spending money just for the instant hit, you know, going, doing a little shopping, feeling good about that package that comes in the mail. Yeah. Then it fades. How are you like, I guess, how do you view spending your own money? Have you had to change that over time as you've changed your career? Yeah, I, um,

I think of a lot of purchases in the context of status. So status is natural in any animal hierarchy, but humans especially are status seeking creatures. You know, the modern day equivalent of gorillas pounding their chests to assert their status is like buying a fancy watch or car. And

The problem is that when you are seeking status, you are seeking the respect and admiration of other people. And we think that by buying that fancy thing, we're going to have this lasting respect and admiration. But it's not true. What actually happens is we get this fleeting moment of feeling like, okay, we have this status now conferred upon us. And then we reset and realize that there's another level to it.

That like, oh, I got the nice watch, but that person has the nicer one. And I need to go peel the onion again to go to the next layer, the next level of it. So it does not confer that lasting respect and admiration that we think. We just spend, spend, spend, and you never get anywhere. What does work is what I call in the book earned status. Things that you cannot buy, but you must earn. Things like...

a physically healthy body. That confers a level of status and respect from others because they know that you can't buy that. The richest person in the world cannot get healthy any faster than you. They can't pay someone to work out for them. They can get a trainer, they can get personal chefs, they can get all these other resources,

But they can't go to the gym for you. They can't do the workout. They can't wake up. They can't do the routine, whatever the thing is. Similarly, the richest person in the world cannot build a healthy relationship faster than you. A healthy, loving relationship is the greatest status symbol I can imagine.

a business. You can't build a bit. You have to actually have to put in the work to earn these things. And so when I think about spending money now, I think about how can I spend to contribute to these things that I'm trying to earn along the way, whether it's investing in team to go and build these cool things, these businesses, or, uh, spending on experiences with people that I love so that I can bring people together and feel those feelings of connection. Um,

you know, investing in things related to my health, whether it's sauna, cold plunges, stuff that I really enjoy that I feel like is contributing to my long-term health. To me, it's all about this journey towards building this, these earned status symbols, rather than just spending money to try to buy status from these, you know, flimsy purchases. What do you want to teach your son about money this early on? This early on? Um,

I mean, he's two and a half. I really want my son to know fundamentally that delayed gratification is the key to life. And that applies to money, but it applies far beyond as well. What I fundamentally want him to know is that

the best things in life come from delayed gratification, come from working hard on something now to achieve some sort of benefit later. And if that's financially, because he's working hard on some business or some idea or some goal or some career, some profession, or if it's physically, he's going to work hard and go through hard workouts and do things. If it's working towards some goal that he has in school or with a sports team or whatever it is, I really want him to fundamentally understand that as a core value. And I want him to see me embody that

Because I don't believe that you can teach your kids anything. I think they have to see you embody these things. And I want him, I mean, the greatest gift I can give my son is to grow up in a household where he sees that, where he sees that in relationships, where he sees that not avoiding hard conversations is the key to building a strong relationship.

where he sees those hard conversations happen, but also the repair and the apologies that come after. He sees the hard work that I put in on things and then the rewards that come from those. Embracing that, understanding that, I think applies to every other area of his life. I could not agree more. Yeah, I think oftentimes parents get caught up in the communication of a lesson

and then don't actually walk the talk and aren't modeling it because they think kids are so amazing. You know, they'll hear words, you know, you're putting together a sentence to try and communicate a message, but if they see something different, they're kind of hanging on to that. That's what they're seeing and also feeling, I think, more importantly. Yeah, I mean, I want my son to know that I have his back. I want my son his whole life to be the toddler that runs away from the table and looks back and sees me looking at him

and then feels like he can run further. I don't want him to think that I'm just going to be running with him or that I'm going to be carrying him. And that's an important distinction because I'm not going to give my son the money to go off and do everything that he wants in his life. But I also want him to know that he can go and fall flat on his face and he still has a place to stay. And he still has people that love him. And if he knows that, I think he's going to be empowered to go and do whatever it is that he wants to do, what he wants to seek in life.

It's not me giving him millions of dollars and giving him, you know, insulating him from every single hardship and challenge in his life because those hardships and challenges are important. I mean, that dirt, the dirt you have to crawl through is how you become who you are. And it's only through enduring that struggle. It's through embracing that suck that you get to the other side. And so I want him to know that he can go off and run with the comfort that we have his back. Yeah.

I love that. I love that. So powerful. I could talk to you all day, but I won't. I know you have a life to give back to. But the new book, The Five Types of Wealth, A Transformative Guide to Design Your Dream Life. What, for you, would you say that you're living your dream life now? And do you also hold a vision for a different dream life in the future? How do you reckon with that? I am living my dream life now.

I don't believe that that implies that I am always going to be living my dream life. I don't believe that that insulates me from hardships that will inevitably come. And I don't take it for granted. Every single day when I wake up, I am tremendously grateful. But I feel a tremendous responsibility to share the message and the ideas and the questions in this book to encourage more people to wrestle with them and to...

make those tiny changes and create those tiny outcomes that can lead to them living theirs. And that's why I wrote this book. And if I had wanted to make a whole lot of money, I would have stayed in finance. This was not that was not the journey that I was on. I want to feel I have a positive impact. And if I can spend the next 50 years of my life, if I'm lucky enough to live that long doing that, and this is the start of that journey, I feel very lucky for that to be how I spend that time. Yeah.

Thank you so much. Thank you. It's been great. Thank you all for listening. We'll see you on the next one. Thank you so much, Sahil. Again, the book is called The Five Types of Wealth, A Transformative Guide to Design Your Dream Life. I'm excited for you guys to get it now. And our book is coming out soon. You can pre-order it now. It's almost 30. It is the eight years of our growth, of our transformation, of our learnings from Lindsay and I in a way that you can read and hold. And then our guests...

and our speakers and our authors and everyone that's engaged with Almost 30 in a meaningful way that applied to the topic of being almost 30. So we love you guys. Thank you so much for being part of our lives, for subscribing, reading, and reviewing. We will see you on the next one. Bye, everybody. Bye.

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