762. Navigating Divorce, Femininity, and Major Life Changes with Natalia Benson
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Hello there and welcome to Almost 30 Podcast. Hello, welcome. It's Lindsay Simsek and Krista Williams.

Still Williams. Still Williams. When will she take on his name? Literally. Even when I was married, I didn't take on the name, but my cats did. They still have his last name. That's nice. Fuji last name of him. Yeah. And I asked them, I said, do you guys want to keep the last name? And they said, sure. Okay. I said, okay. Just rolls off the tongue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? It's easy. But it should probably change to Fuji Williams. Williams does too. I know. Fuji and Oogie Williams. Yeah.

Are they a like bass guitar duo? Yeah, dude, so true. Fuji and Oogie Williams. Those are my cat's names. They're like prodigies. Dude, honestly. We were going to name either Fuji was one of our cats, one of my cats, and we were going to name Fuji Spooky Juan Pablo, but that didn't happen.

Oh, that's cute. Spooky Juan Pablo is a good one. What's that from? Just made up. Oh, okay. Fuji is no rhyme or reason. Oogie is Oogway from Kung Fu Panda. Right, right, right. Who's the master sensei. Yeah, yeah. So that's one, if you know, you know. I know.

No. Essentially. Do you know how long I didn't know what if you know, you know, like the – Oh, I know. I-K-Y-K-whatever. I-Y-K, yes. Did not know. I didn't know what T-L-D-R meant. Yeah, too long, didn't read. Too long. I actually couldn't have told you that right now, but that's what it meant. Really? What did you think it was? I don't know.

Totally something. I don't know. Yeah, honestly. When I see it, I just know that someone's going to summarize something for me. I also, too, I'm like, okay, so if we're doing TLDR, what are we doing the original for? I know. Because then I'm just going TLDR. Well, it's almost like a slap in the face. It's like I just wrote. 100%.

I just wrote you a long-ass email that did not need to be a long-ass email. Yep. It's like, you're an artist. No more. TLDR. Now is your Apple phone doing the summaries? Yeah. I actually need that for my mental health. Oh, yeah, for sure. So it does summaries. Like, as an example, yesterday I sent a message to someone that had sent me a proposal for something that I don't have the capacity for at this moment. And so I sent them this really long text yesterday on the flight. And I sometimes get, like,

nervous to read it because I feel bad letting someone down. So it summarizes it and it's like, say her name was Annabelle. It's like Annabelle expresses gratitude and compassion and thanks. And I was like, yes, perfect. I'm not opening that text. We're all good, dude. I was like, sounds great. We're summarizing this well. Yeah, it is actually very helpful. Yeah. Okay. Welcome to the show. Almost 30, Spirituality, Lifestyle, Health and Wellness. And

Today we have on one of my best friends, Natalia Benson, and we are talking about her journey, her divorce, this very powerful portal and process that she's been in. A journey that I've witnessed very closely. It was almost as if I was doing everything just a little bit earlier than her in her process.

Because we had similar paths with our awakening to needing to leave the relationship or needing to transition the relationship. So this is such a beautiful conversation about change, about transformation, about really following your heart and really knowing when it's time to choose different and when it's time to choose yourself.

And then we also talked about the Saturn return. So this really powerful portal, this really powerful time for transformation and how important it is to leverage your Saturn return for your greatest growth and transformation. Or if you've already been in your Saturn return, which is this very important astrological event that we break down in our book.

you can look back and see all the parts and aspects of your life that may be a focus for you later, something to think about and work on, or the things that you got right. Because if you were able to really meet the parts of your Saturn return period, a really challenging time in your life,

with grace and with consciousness and with belief and faith and then make your life better, you're so much – you're on the right path. But if you weren't, these issues that you didn't meet during the Saturn return might come around again. Yeah. Yeah. We got a question the other day that was like, oh, if I don't figure this out in my Saturn return, if I don't like –

fix it, get it right. Like what's going to happen? And I think that's a real fear once you learn what your Saturn return is. But I think how I've reframed it for myself lately has been, it's a recurring theme in your life. That

You get the opportunity to meet probably over and over. But each time, especially based on like how you navigated it during your Saturn return and just kind of moved through that change, like you will become more confident with it. You will become more practiced with it.

Because I think we think that when we go through times of change, like if we're trying to fix something or heal something, then it will never, ever be an issue again. Yeah. Like my codependency or my trust in myself. Yeah. It's something I've gotten so much better with. But it is a recurring theme in my life. Yeah. That like will knock on my door and be like, so now that you're a mom, you kind of have to look at codependency again.

Now I'm sure it'll happen again when I'm like midlife and like questioning things. So I don't think we should expect to like never meet it again, but we do get the opportunity to practice and just like be in right relationship with it over time. I think that's such a great point. And that's what I always implore my clients or anyone that I work with. It's like, how can we see this as practice? I think we always want to get it right and you always want to –

have it mastered or be done with it. But it's actually the practice of meeting it, doing a little bit better, seeing how you go, and then loving yourself when you don't fully meet the expectations, being there for yourself when you're not fully, you know,

non-codependent or not loving of yourself. So how can you give yourself grace? I think the amount of grace you show yourself in this process of healing and self-development is really the flex of how far you've come and how much you've grown. And I've done a lot of growth in

That's led me to more financial success or career success. But the most growth I've done has been loving myself when I'm not succeeding and loving myself when I'm not perfect or loving myself when I'm not all these things. And I still really struggle with that. You know, I've been thinking about lately. So I have a Venus South Node, Pisces North Node, and that's where we're shifting this year in 2025 collectively to Pisces North Node, Venus South Node for the next two years. Yeah.

So now the collective north and south nodes is going to also match my north and south nodes.

And so it's going to be a really powerful time for me during this process for me to really figure out how to let go of perfectionism, which is my Virgo South node, the desire to know, the desire to like have everything organized and structured and all these things and really lean into the more mystical, spiritual part of me, which is like the natural Pisces part of me. And the Pisces is also my sun and then Virgo is also my rising. So it's just kind of like it's doubled down in a way of how I present to the world and

And I think in the process of letting go of that perfectionism, it's like how can I love myself when I'm seeing how hard I'm trying to be perfect but then also really let go of that and trust. Yeah. Yeah. Easier said than done. I know. But –

I think my north node is an Aries. Yes, it is. Which is wild. Why? I love that. It's sexy. Just fire. I know. Which I like. Yeah. It's the south node is Libra, I believe. Okay. That is – this is too real. Too real. Too real. Yeah. So it's like – Wow. I think – and I don't know a ton. This is me knowing nothing about astrology but knowing that's too real. Yeah. Yeah.

The three things that I know about that are real. I think it's so much about the Aries for me is like stepping into my power, using my voice, like just initiating, like fire starter in my own life. Like it might not be a public display. Maybe it is, but like it's

It's more so in like that day-to-day. And then the Libra is that balance, that like self-sacrifice, that like prioritization of others. Prioritization of relationships, yeah. Yeah, that's prioritization of relationships. This is like the individual, which I don't – I like haven't fully wrapped my mind around. Oh, I know. You know what I mean? That is the truest thing that I want everyone to think about.

What concepts do you know of but haven't fully wrapped your mind around? Yeah. Or you don't want to. I was thinking about that so much lately with so much of the spiritual information or stuff you read online. There's so much that you read, but it doesn't land or hit until later in life. You know, where it's like even silly concepts like self-love. You know, it didn't land until it landed, what we're talking about. Yes. Or...

the presence of the Holy Spirit. You know what I mean? Like stuff like that where you're like, you have to feel it and experience things cellularly to get it. But yeah, I totally know. And even for me, this is, I'll even speak to this. So many teachers have been like, you need to just be yourself. And I'm like, no, what are you talking about? Yeah. What is that? What, no, what is that? Key and peel. You're like the self with a capital S or are you talking about that? Yeah. I'm like, okay, but describe me.

Like, I'll literally say that. I'm like, no, but describe me. Yeah. Funny. Gorgeous. Gorgeous, cool. I'm like, okay, I'll be that. Because I'm like, what are, like, if someone was like to you to be yourself, what would you think? I just, I don't know, man. I want to float in the wind. Yeah, I'm just like...

I'm like a bag in American Beauty. I'm like, what are you talking about? And I could be so many different things in so many different environments with different people, which people would say, well, then you're not being yourself. But I'm like, actually, that is myself. Exactly. Because I'm able to, like, that's what my soul wants to do. She wants to try on different things. Exactly. So the concept, and maybe I'll get it cellularly. Yeah. I know there's be myself. I know what the self experience is of me being.

being in touch with self, but I don't necessarily in this moment understand cellularly how that translates to the world. Maybe yours is self, just be. Yes, exactly. That's exactly. Chew on that. Chew on that. But the be part. Thank you, sensei. You're welcome. Thank you, sensei. Aho. Aho. Aho. So this, I'm excited. Okay, so this was a pleasure and a delight because, let me just say this. So let's just talk about my experience in my leaving my

relationship, marriage, whatever you want to call it. And you being witness to me in my process and even Natalia very much being a witness to me in my process and my friends being witness to me in my process but never imposing on my process and allowing me to be in it. And I see this all the time with people where you...

And see for them where this isn't working. But you really just got to let them be. Yeah. And figure it out. And wake up one day and be like, oh, this isn't for me. This relationship or whatever. But, God, there were so many times, like, I look back now where I'm like, oh, that was not. If you're, like, there's so many times I look back now on my relationship and I'm just like, that was not what it should have been. That is not the sign of an aligned relationship or an aligned relationship.

or whatever, but you just don't really know. No. Well, because it's such a – I think our society is made at such high stakes, right? Like, okay, you're married now, so that means something. You've been together X amount of years. That means something. And, like, you should be fighting for this. You should be. And, like, I don't see it –

having gone any other way. No, for sure. You know, like, like, if I track back and you track back, like, all of those moments of not seeing it made perfect sense for when you did see it and then made decisions based on that. Like, yeah, it all made sense. And I think for me, like the hallmark, the hallmark, the what I really value as a friend and

in my friendships is that, is just like allowing each other to be in your process. You can totally be honest. You can be a mirror, but like, it's just, it's such an important aspect to relationship because trying to impose your opinion and your experience or some sort of control. Yeah. It just, it just muddies the waters a lot. You know? It's not, I have a friend like in my life right now that's

trying to impose too much on an opinion of who I hang out with, who I – I'm like, absolutely not. Yeah. Full-blown adult. I'm my own purse. I'm my own purse. Yeah, but I do think it is a little tricky, though, with relationships because you see someone getting hurt. Sure. So that, you know, and so that's what people care. I think my rule is if there's like verbal abuse, physical abuse, anything that I'm like, whoa, you're kind of in danger mentally, physically, emotionally –

I will say something. But otherwise, probably will not. Unless you ask me. Yeah, that's true. That's a good one. Yeah, it's actually nice to ask your friends, like, hey, do you want to be held accountable? Or like, what do you want in this? I think for...

Yeah. And so you guys will get all the tea in this episode with her. It's just such a – I mean, she was just so in her power. And it's so nice when you get out of a relationship that isn't serving you and isn't serving your integrity or your path. And I think we had the similar experience where –

it was no, we were no longer in integrity being in it. And so it makes you a different person. It makes you show up differently where it's not like you're lying, but you're not being honest because you're saying things that are different than what you're doing. And especially being public figures, it's really hard to be out of integrity in that way, to be talking on a podcast about personal growth, self-development, relationships, whatever, and then go home and be like, how's your day? And like,

fighting or hiding or whatever. And so you guys are really going to love this one. You can find Natalia on Instagram at Natalia Benson. You can find her at NataliaBenson.com. She works with women and money. She's also a medium and an astrologer as well. And she's just an incredible, incredibly loving, interesting, cool person. We love you, Natalia. Thank you for being on.

And sharing something so vulnerable. We also have one of her quotes in our book, Almost 30, as the past the mic. So in the Almost 30 book, we took some of the best quotes from the podcast over the years, like...

the most powerful parts that you can just flip open to and read at any time. So we have quotes from her in our book, Almost 30. You can get in pre-order now at almost30.com slash book. You can get pre-order incentives like a free ticket to camp, which is so exciting. We have camp coming up with amazing speakers like Jillian Tarecki, Sahil. Mm-hmm.

We have Rising Woman, Shalina Ayana. Spirit Daughter. Yeah. Jenna Zoe. It's stacked. It's stacked. It is a fresh lineup and all you have to do is purchase and pre-order the book and then you get a free ticket to a day of sessions that have never before been seen. So almost30.com slash book. You can get your ticket to camp. All right, y'all. Thank you so much for listening. Enjoy this one. We'll see you on the other side. Love you guys.

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I'm so excited to have you. It's been a minute, babe. And I mean, over like the six, seven years we've been bestie boos, like...

I think it's my third, maybe my third time. I remember the first time that I met you on the interview where I was on your show. I was in my apartment in 2021. Yeah. I think. And yeah, I think it was 2021 and no 20, 2019, 2019 living at no, you're right. You're right. Living in that Santa Monica apartment. I remember exactly where I was and our conversation and you read my chart. You did some of my chart with stuff. I was with my ex, um,

And yeah, we've been like ever since. I mean, last night we were on the phone on FaceTime just pissing our pants laughing at our lives because a lot has changed for you. A lot has changed. Catch us up to speed with. Oh my God, where do I begin? I mean, the last year of my life, let alone the last month of my life, has been nothing but freaking transition. And I remember talking to my therapist the day my husband and I decided to get divorced.

And she was like, you're in a transition. I felt like I was out of my body. I had to drive because we were living together. So I got in the car and I was like, I need to just drive around because I could feel this is it. And my life is completely about to shift. And I'll never forget those words. I was just like borderline, like dry heaving, crying, even though I knew it was

In my body, in my soul, in my heart, I knew it was the right decision. But change is so terrifying. And I felt scared because I was like, this is what I've known. And this is where I thought I was going. And that is not what's happening. And I'll just never forget when she just, it's like she pierced through my pain in that moment and was like, you're in a transition right now.

And there was something about that word that just really, really spoke to me. Because over the last year specifically...

I had an IVF attempt. Well, you know all this. Not many of the people do. But I had an IVF attempt with my ex that didn't work. I got toxic mold exposure from the house I was living in. I'm forgetting about all this though too. Do you remember that? Dude, keep going. Remember you'd come over and you'd be like, I feel funny here. I'm unwell. Yeah. It was something weird with that house. And what's weird is that, but kind of divine if you...

the way that I see it is that, you know, me having the toxic mold exposure actually really, really negatively impacted the IVF. And the truth is, is me and this person, we weren't meant to move forward together, but we, we wanted to, and we were on a timeline and we had these ideas of the things we should be doing, even though I think in a core, core, core perspective,

place within both of us, we knew it wasn't right. But it's hard sometimes to see the forest for the trees. You just like... I didn't want to admit it because I'd also already invested so many years and my belief was always like, we can get better. We can get aligned. We can figure it out. So IVF, mold exposure. I lost my dad in September. I mean...

Where do I begin? Mediumship is coming online. The mediumship popped in. Your business has completely changed. Yeah. My business has softened so much. You've softened. I'm a different person. Oh my God, you guys. I have so many things that I want to say, but that is something that I think both of us have. We have, babes. It's interesting because in both of our journeys moving to divorce, what both of us have done is

completely transitioned from being in our masculines and our marriages. And at the end of our marriages, both completely taking the year before divorce or the year or so and softening more completely into our feminine than ever before. And it was almost like once we were in our feminine, we were like, this is not working. Yeah. Yeah. I had to, you know, this process kind of began for me like last August where I was like,

You cannot keep checking out all the things you do that make you check out. It's actually after I did metamorphosis, just a little...

Heartline plug. But I mean, that really got me connected to my body's wisdom and I stopped trying to escape what I felt. And that catalyzed a lot of changes for me. And one of them was like, for me, it was around eating. I don't think I realized that to...

substantiate myself for the lack of true soul fulfillment that wasn't coming through the relationship. And I want to also say like me and my ex-husband have so much love for one another. We've always been friends, but we couldn't get on the same page as partners. And I didn't really figure out what that was until the moment we were done. I was like, oh, love and partnership. I

are two different things.

Partnership, my vision for my life is that my partnership embodies love. But what I think I had to mature and heal through was that just because you have love, it doesn't mean you have partnership. And that I think, you know, I'm turning 38 a month from today. And it's just like, that is one of the most remarkable bits of wisdom that's ever come through for me. But going back to that piece around the escaping through eating specifically, I think that's

I just, as soon as I decided I'm going to get healthy, I'm going to have a healthier, more, yeah, just like the best word I can use is health, not emotions in the way that I related to food. The truth will expose itself quickly. And within a couple months of those transitions, especially me getting so devoted to my health and my workouts and like my spiritual health,

everything came to light. And I think it just... And it also gave him the opportunity to be honest with himself that I really... All the things I wanted from him, I just don't think that he wanted them for himself. That's not fair. And we're powerful people. We're powerful women. And I think that

I don't know. I want to hear how you feel about this, babe. I feel like we've had an interesting, some pretty remarkable- Very. Like similarities in like our path of growth in this area. But it's just like, I feel like I had to come to this space where I was just like, okay,

I can't want for you what you don't want. That's so disrespectful to you. And finally, like I had to like get out of the codependent loop and the control of wanting him to be someone that he perhaps didn't even want for himself, but I don't think he wanted to lose the love just like I didn't want to lose the love, but the love is still there, but the relationship needed to end. And

I was terrified to have that. I had moments last fall. I don't know if you ever had this in your mind where I literally was like, I don't know what I'm going to do without this person. I literally had those conversations, but that was just a fearful part of my mind that is not me. Because then God universal is like, well, you're about to find out because you can't be that like locked in on something that's not truly aligned to your highest timeline in this life or to theirs. Yeah.

Yeah, I think in our personal – I mean, I have so many similarities to our journeys, you know, the food and body thing aspect of it because I think for both of us, or at least I'll speak for myself, I was using food to numb. I was using food to stop myself from speaking my truth. I was using food to soothe. I was using – I mean, I remember going home from Air One, getting like an Air One hot bar, eating like two or three desserts on my drive on my way home to go home because I just wasn't feeding myself –

And so I was looking for that nourishment and love that I wasn't getting from my relationship that I now know how to give to myself. Mm-hmm.

And oftentimes if we are avoiding feeling, we are using food. And once you really commit to feeling your feelings when they come up and you don't use food, a new life unlocks because you're like, oh, I'm completely in touch with my life from a sensory level. And so how we are with food can be such an indicator of how we're relating to life. And I think we had that both where I was really using food. And that's why my body's, a lot of reason why my body has changed is not only cellularly

the light and vitality being able to move through me and so much of the things I've been doing. But it's like, I don't use food anymore in the same way. I don't need it anymore in the same way. You know, what's interesting too is something I noticed with your path

that I really had similarly is I remember when you doubled down and you were like, I'm going all the way the fucking in in this relationship. And I had that moment too, where I remember saying to my therapist, this is like, I'm having like a physical reaction to this because I remember it's making me emotional. I remember saying to my therapist, I am doubling down. I've been crying all day. Today's like a tear day for me, but

I remember saying, I'm doubling down on this relationship and I'm going two feet in. I've been one foot in, one foot out this entire relationship from the beginning. And now I'm going to go all the way in and try. And I needed to have that deep effort at the end to prove to myself that I had done everything I could. And I remember you having that moment too, where you're like, I'm going all the way in. Do you remember that? Oh, of course. The weird thing that I did too, this was sort of like a...

a gesture, so to speak. You actually were with me. We were in Laguna and I was like, I'm going to decorate. It literally looked like an afterthought because we were so misaligned on... We were misaligned. I just can't stop laughing because I'm laughing because we're the same. I know. I was trying to plug him in anywhere. I know. I was like, you can put a poster in the closet if you want. It was like...

And that was, I feel bad for him. No, this was silly, but I remember texting you and being like, I'm going to buy this $700 not for the wall because it represents union. And you were like, I will make that for you. Oh, no. I will make that for you from Home Depot to Knoxville.

You bought a not for the water represent union? I had my ex's initials on a necklace. And I remember showing him and being like, I have our initials together on a necklace. He's like, what? My old toxic trait was like, business will solve everything.

If I work and I make money, that's going to solve my feelings of safety. That's going to solve my feelings of we're not on the same page. And again, even though so much love, so much friendship, there was so much misalignment. And I think that it's so tough to get to that space where it's just like,

And my word lately has been freaking surrender. Like, you know, I'm all about my tarot and I keep freaking pulling the hanged man. And the hanged man is literally like, surrender, like not, you know, not your will, but the will. And trust. And just let the frick go. And that was amazing.

As silly as it sounds, that was like a little moment or a big moment for me where I was like, I'm going to go all in and set up our space and make it feel good. But it's like,

If the underlying like essence isn't there, it doesn't matter if you buy a $700 knot and like hang up your wedding photos. It's just like there are fun for us. There were just fundamental things that we just weren't aligned on. And it wasn't until I want to, can I tell you something kind of like esoteric?

After my dad passed away, I said a prayer to my dad and I just said, dad, because especially like the mediumship piece and communicating, I was like, please, you know, please help my partner become a partner because we're not partnered right now. And I don't know how to partner. And my parents were together for 45 years when my dad passed.

And so that's something I've learned in like my mediumship journey is like to speak to your ancestors, to talk to the beings in your litany and ask them for their support. And I really witnessed after I said that intention and asked for my dad's support from the other side, I really asked for the clarity. And I was all in still. I was all in until the day that he said, I don't want to work on this anymore. Yeah, my girl, you were all-

Dude, the loyalty. My girl was all in. I like meet people now and I'm just like, listen, I'm like, and I'm very honest about this. I'm just like, I'm loyal and I'm truly choosing who to give the loyalty to. Because Aries, like what's interesting about Aries, people don't always attribute this to us, which is interesting. We are actually deeply loyal and deeply sensitive. So we have to decide who we give that to.

Because when we're in, we're in. And I was having a chat with myself coming up here today and I was like, I was like, oh babe, I was like, I forgive you. I was like, I just forgive you for all the people because of like your anxious attachment and wanting quick answers and quick security and quick certainty from people. I see why you've done this and there's a line in the sand. Yeah.

Like we're not fucking doing this anymore. I've had enough because looking at the timeline of my life, I don't fault anyone else for this, but I really take accountability for all the ways that I gave my love and gave my loyalty and it just wasn't me being respectful of myself. And I just think like getting older –

Really figuring that out is changing my life. And I'm so new out of this. Like this is only... It's fresh. This is like fresh, but it's like the lessons are just, they're right there and they've always been right there. It's like I just had to let go of my obsession with this being it. And as soon as I could let that go...

Like I called you the day that it was done and I was weeping, but then we were laughing because it was just like, I know this is right. And my heart knows this is right. It's just hard. Yeah. It's so interesting because it's like you're doing it and you're witnessing your body crying or having the moment, but your soul is like, yep, we're doing this. You know, I just will never forget. It was just like soul was like, we are doing this. And I obviously was sad. I obviously had emotion. Yeah.

But it's a different experience when you're guided through something. Yeah. And you're just like, no, this is true and real. And now almost everything in my life, it's like, I can have emotional reactions and experiences, but I know the truth now because I'm so with my soul where I'm like, yeah, this actually sucks for my human, but this is for the best. Absolutely. And this is where we're going. Absolutely. One of the things, you know, with the house example, that's so interesting. And I think so many women have this. It's like,

So first from the house as the example, your house foundation had mold in it. There was issues with the foundation in the walls. Like secret mold. It was crazy. Which is, you know. And then so you're buying adornment for the walls where it's like, yeah, maybe this will fix it. But what I think what I did and what you also did was with the knots and the photos as the example is you as the woman that's doing everything in the relationship, carrying the relationship,

focused on the growth of their relationship, focused on the health of their relationship, determining where your relationship's going to go, you are also the one that's like, let me do the knots. Let me do the things. And there was no participant on the other end. And that was my experience too, where it's like I was doing just running around in circles, over-functioning, burning myself out, trying to do all of these things. And I think so many women...

are already in positions in their life where they're over-functioning. They feel like they're responsible for the health of every relationship in their life, for their success in every area of their life, for every single thing in their life. And then they also, in their romantic relationships, feel like they're responsible for everything, that we have to make the date plans, we have to do the things. And it's like, the relationship should have active participation from both ends. There should be a, you know, if you're in...

a man and a woman, if that's your relationship, a man and a woman where the man is equally as invested as in the health of their relationship. Hey, I'm noticing that we're not doing well. This is what I'm looking to do. Like for so long, I didn't have an active participant and now I'm looking forward to having that like. Oh yeah. It's a whole other level. It's another level. And it's, and it's a whole other level for us of like receiving. Yes.

Feeling safe to receive. Yeah. Like you and I have a friendship and a dynamic where like I feel safe receiving from you. Like I practice receiving from you just as much as I feel more comfortable giving. You're very giving. I'm a giving person. Very. And what even just the shift in the end of this relationship. And I had moments...

our dynamic and in our relationship over the over the six years that we were together where I'd hear little tidbits of like questions that people would ask at the beginning of dating and I just was like holy moly I'm like well for me I had been single and dating in LA for a decade plus my um

What's the word I'm looking for? I know what you mean. Bar?

I look and I'm like, oh my God, even already, like just again, being out in the world and just meeting people, whether it's friendships or it's people that I could potentially date,

the questions I ask, and it's not to interview them. It's not to like be, put someone under scrutiny. I'm genuinely curious about how you function and where you're coming from. And I'm practicing that right now in safe dynamics because I realized that's something I never did. I just, when, when he and I got together, um,

I just wanted safety and I wanted someone to claim me because I hadn't felt either of those things in LA dating in LA in such a long time. And so I remember as we were getting closer, I'm sorry, as we were getting deeper and deeper into the relationship, I

Looking back, I'm like, okay, there were probably things on both sides where we just were like, you know, I love this person and I'm comfortable with this person, so I'm just going to keep going. But it's so beautiful because I can't speak for him, but I know for me moving forward,

I'm excited to see how to date consciously and how to really like have an experience where I'm like, who are you? I'm not, I'm not jumping in so quickly because I look back on my history, um, on this earth of dating people. It has always been quick because I just couldn't handle any

Uncertainty. Uncertainty. It just didn't feel safe. It didn't feel like something I could handle. And then I look back and I'm like, wow, I really don't know that I've ever chosen to

truly chosen someone for me because I just always was like, I just want to be claimed. I just want to be safe or whatever, you know, my goal is at that moment. And it's cool because now it's like, wow, in two years, I'm going to be 40 years old. And I remember before, you know, he and I had this conversation and we were really going to move apart from each other. There was part of me that was like, wow, I'm so young. Yeah.

When I turned 35, all I thought about was death. I was like, oh my God, I'm dying soon. I just had a really weird experience turning 35. And then as I get deeper and like turning 38 and on and on, I feel so, so powerful and young. Like I feel healthier, happier, more confident than I've ever felt in my life. And yeah.

That's also from walking through the fire. That's why I share what I've experienced in this last year because I'm like, I've walked through it with myself and I had moments where I was like, I feel like I'm dying. And I was and I have. Sometimes you have these moments where you're laying on the floor because your loss of sense of self and your loss of sense of control. But

there's always been a whisper and a knowing within me that's like, just wait. There's something so good. And then having amazing people around you. Because I don't think if I had the friendships that I had and the women around me, I don't know how I would have got through this year. Oh, I know. And what's beautiful is that we've been there with each other. And I think

in friendship and for anyone listening, we've been so respectful of our process. Yes. The things that you heard me say about relationships and with my ex or others, it's just you've met me at my process where I am. Yes. And my goal has been to meet you at your process where you are. Yeah. Obviously, I had thoughts about your relationship and my desire for you. Mm-hmm.

I would never impose that on you. I was going to be there with you whatever you decided because I trust you. And I think that's something that more immature female friendships miss is I remember when I was more immature and I was younger and I was like, no, she should break up with him. You know, she should whatever. And it's like then you create separation from that person because you judge them. Then they don't want to share with you or tell you. Yeah.

And you can have your opinion, but you share your opinion if it's wanted in a way that's loving, in a way that's seeing of their highest self, in a way that's like requested. And just like, if you are holding space enough and a mirror enough and loving enough, they're going to see. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. And you just, I just having the experience of witnessing you see on the other side, the truth of

things is the biggest, the happiest part of my year easily. Well, I remember the day that the conversation initially entered for he and I, and I called Gala. And I knew telling Gala and telling you, because I needed to have my own process with it. And that first time,

We weren't ready. This was back in December. Like we just, neither of us were ready. And I had to voice that to both of you, but I knew by telling the two women that I'm the closest with,

Two of my best friends. I knew that by telling you and feeling safe to tell you, even though I knew, because that's how we are as women. At least I know that's how I feel like we are. That's how I am in a friendship. I get protective, but I can be protective, but not project. And that's really been my whole process.

And I've appreciated that my babes have done that for me because I had to like, I remember when I said this to both you and Gala in separate conversations, but I was like, I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready. And I need to arrive to it in my own time and not to feel shame. And I think that's the deepest gift that we as women can give each other because, yeah, we may have the higher vantage point on someone's situation because our emotions aren't involved, but that does not mean...

that we can intercede on someone else's process.

I think that almost violates like a cosmic law where we try to like take someone's process from them. And I just feel like that also is a gift of maturing and having like beautiful friendships. And I also have a lot of mentors in my life and women who hold me accountable in that capacity as well. But it was just like, okay, I'll be ready when I'm ready. And the readiness came quickly because I think when the truth –

When you create space for the truth, especially with people that love you and hold you accountable. Like I knew telling you guys that we were navigating really tough stuff. I knew that I had to hold myself accountable and not continue on. Because otherwise it would also jeopardize my friendships. And that's a no for me. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. I think – I don't know if I would have – it would have been –

I think I had seen so much that at the point that we were at, I had been, I actually had, remember, I had a moment where I was like, oh, this is, she's staying. Like, I remember thinking that at some point. I was like, okay, she's staying. I'm locked into staying. Like, I accepted it fully. I was like, cool, this is where we're at. And I forget what moment it was. It was at the end. But not that I had not denied it, but I hope I wouldn't have allowed it to do our relationship. But I think what's the hardest part is like,

When you have someone in your life that doesn't see, that is like turning away to the truth. And that was me for years. Yes. God, like I bless like the people in my life. And because I remember dude saying stuff to people and them being like, what? Yeah, literally. You know, being like, what happened? Yeah. And you're just like, yeah, you know, dad, you know, like, and you're just like,

I remember that, babe. Yeah. Oh, my God. We both had that experience like nine months before our wedding where I remember going on a walk with you and you were in a big process. And I was like, I think I asked you and you were just like, no, I'm not. I'm not doing that. And I think and I was like, okay, I respect that. But then I had the exact same thing and you had asked me the same question like a couple years later. So it's just like.

It really is granting that grace. Yep. Grace and trust. And if you have your friends, this is the thing, that's fine. Cornerstone of my friends is they're always working on themselves. They're always investing in their growth. They always have mentors. We are able to be in clear relationship of our connection. I'm...

I'm there for other connections and the availability of stuff, but it's not really my business. And yeah, and Lindsay was so powerful for me in that too. I remember one time we were sitting across that table recording the podcast and I literally remember before the wedding being like, this isn't it. And she was like, Lindsay's just so right at us. She's like, okay, cool. What are we going to do? And then I was like, you know, obviously stayed in it, but like, it's just, it's interesting. What would you say about that? Like,

This was my thing, too, with the wedding is like, I didn't know what was normal in relationships. Oh, yeah. That's the biggest issue. Well, I think I guess that and the second part of that is what I saw as normal in my mom and dad, bless them, was a mother who was over-functioning, doing everything in her masculine life.

having to take care of us, having to take care of others, you know, them not being emotionally present and available for one another. So I kind of was, I saw at the end of my relationship, duplicating a lot of what I saw in my parents. And I was like, yo, like I remember there was a Thanksgiving one year I was with my family in Florida, my mom and dad hang out, even though they're divorced. And so they had been divorced. We are at my dad's house before he got sick. And, um,

all the men were sitting around watching TV and they're watching sports, just literally like zoned out, sleeping, watching sports. And the women were cooking, cleaning, getting groceries, talking, doing all of this shit. And I just was like, oh, this would have been me. Like it would have been me just like, I'm like, no, I want a man who is

engaged, involved, present, clocked in, like equal. Like I'm just like, whoa. And I just saw the patterns that I had been breaking and like the aspects of what I had seen growing up and like not choosing that timeline and not choosing that life and being like, no, actually the relationship I want isn't like this. I think I called you one day. I was like walking through Sprouts and it was the Sprouts where I grew up in Ahwatukee in Phoenix.

And I remember having this moment hearing this like song that I was like obsessed with in like middle school, which is basically about like...

this guy being obsessed with this girl. And I had this like, and this is when like my relationship was ending and I was seeing if I wanted to move out there. And I was just in a whirlwind. And I remember like hearing this song and then thinking about like all the Disney movies I watched when I was younger and just this paradigm that it created of like,

It's so entrenched in here that I don't even know how to put words to it, but it's like created some kind of program. A man saving you. Yeah. Man, man, savior, like that, that is the only way to have like an exciting life. Um, that, that, and it doesn't mean that it can't be beautiful. And like, but I, I've had to really look at like all the ways in which the programs and the stuff that was modeled, um,

For me, especially when I was younger, because the teen movies, what is it? 10 Things I Hate About You? All the millennial teen romance movies, just all the things that we've been exposed to

With so little actual guidance on like how to actually meet and maintain ourselves and hold a caliber for like a certain kind of partnership. Like I say the word partnership because for me, that's what it is. Like that's my –

My big breakthrough is just like, yes, I was in a relationship and there was love between us, but there was not partnering. Yeah. And especially moving forward, like, I don't know if I'll have children in this life. Like,

I'm kind of 50-50 at this point. I would love to. I would love to have a family. But there's also part of me that's like, I only want to do that with a partner. That's what I want for myself. And to rush that process just for the sake of having kids doesn't fit for me.

And yet I even look back on like having a wedding and all of the things, like the way I look at that is so different now. Like I was even thinking about this the other day. I was like, well, I was like, when I meet my person that I want to be with and create a life with,

I want to have like a long-term partnership party. Like we're going to have like a sexy long-term partnership party, which will emulate a wedding, but I don't know. And again, I could say this and it could change and I give myself that grace, but like, I don't know if I will ever legally marry again. I don't know how I feel about it. And I just think our generation, and I look at this astrologically, like Pluto and Scorpio generation, we are like

line in the sand. We are a line in the sand generation because that Scorpio archetype is literally like this, not that.

yes to this, a huge no to that. And I even this weekend, I decided to share, first I did a soft launch about getting divorced and I just shared it to my broadcast channel. Then I more openly shared it over this last weekend and the messages, the support, so many different things that have come through. But the biggest, biggest like

message that came through from my women was like, congratulations for doing what was right for you. Like, congratulations on making a choice that works for you and that feels right. And that also just

Yeah.

And he would tell me, he'd say, well, you know, you wanted it and you had the stronger desire. So I trusted what you wanted. And looking back now, I'm just like, I'm grateful for the experience. I've healed and grown as a woman. I mean, the reason I'm sitting in the energy I am right now is because of the last six years with this person. For sure. For the work that we've not only done together, but the work I've done on myself in reflection of the relationship. And it's just like,

Holy crap. Like, yeah, it's crazy. It's like waking up from a really deep sleep. It is actually him saying that is just so indicative of the truth.

And it's just like, I think in dating now— And you can't—I couldn't see it then. That's the whole thing is that— You can't see it till you're on the other side. Yeah. Yes. And in dating now, you will see it now. Oh. I'm listening— I see everything now. I'm listening to every word every man is saying to me. Like, every word I'm listening to the in-between because I'm like, oh, this is saying something about how you're seeing me. And not even in the way of—

being psycho, but it's like, they'll tell you. They tell you, everybody tells you everything. And if you, this is like, even with this one man that I was dating, oh, he told me, but I was like, his energy says something different. Right.

Because what I was hearing was what I didn't want to hear. And then, you know, a few weeks in, my guides had to wake me up and be like, girl, he said what you need to know. You need to listen to what he said. Oh, my God. Listen to the words that he said. Because even if the energy is saying something different, they want you to hear the words that they're saying. So you can really hear. If you heard the truth of that, I don't want to get married. Cool.

Yeah. You know, but so many of us are like, they're going to change their minds or whatever. But I think one of the biggest programming things that you were talking about previously that a lot of women have grown up with that I broke recently was around the savior programming. Yeah. Men saving me. Yeah. You know, I was like, okay, cool. I can be successful, but I'm always going to be saved by a man that's more successful than me. The way that I want to get the life that I want is by

doing my thing, but then the man is really going to take me to that next level. The man will provide the money. The man will provide the home. Like even my home was breaking that because I for so long was like, I can't wait to get a home with my man or I'm going to move in with my man in his house. I remember. And then being like, okay, cool. God, I'm available for being in a home by myself without my man. And that was like one of the last parts where I was like, no man is going to provide me anything I can't provide myself. Right.

And I'm saying that with deep love and reverence for being my own inner masculine and my own inner feminine, my own inner father and my own inner mother. Yes. And it's not like I'm saying, like, I don't want a man. Of course, I want that. I want that. Yes. But for so many of us, I think we always kind of have that, like, desire to be saved. Yeah. And when you have that, you're going to make decisions from a place that's not going to be helpful for you. Oh, a million percent. And I'm, like, unpacking that right now because—

I'm being really intentional. It's like, you know, I'm just living on my own again, moved into my place, which I love. Very happy. I like being by myself. And I even realized, again, we can say this. There's this saying and like there's like a Yiddish saying. This is like if you want to make God laugh, make plans. And it's funny because my ex-husband and I at the beginning of this year were making all the plans for the year. And I heard that saying in my head.

You want to make God laugh, make plans? And I was like, hmm. I'm like, interesting. It was very clear. I can tell when I'm getting a clear message because usually they're easy to ignore, but they're very clear. But I could be like, oh, whatever. It's fine. But it's interesting because the reason I bring that forward is because my feeling now moving forward is like I will always have my own place. I always want to have my own place. But also to what you're saying, I had to talk –

through that with myself this week where I was like, yeah, you're here in this gorgeous 800 square foot apartment. I'm at the beach, but I'm like, yeah, but when I meet my man,

That's when all buy a home. That's when all da, da, da, da, da. And being with that space of resistance inside of me that feels like I cannot do it alone. And I feel like the reason that I broke out of, because you and I talked about this the first time you had me on the pod, which was, it feels like eons ago now, but it's like, I remember that's when I had met Mick and

Actually, I met Mick and then you and I became really good friends. So this was all like a similar timeline. But I remember having that conversation with you and being like, you know, I didn't meet someone to be in relationship with me until I really like met and mastered those masculine skills around like personal finance. Because I always would date people trying to get them to take care of the things that I thought I couldn't take care of and I couldn't have been more incorrect.

And that's why like, I'm so obsessed and I love what I teach and do because it's

I think to call in something healthy and to be in something healthy, which is now an ongoing experiment for me to have that part of me intact. Cause we do, we, we call in what we are and we call in also the unresolved issues that we haven't cultivated yet. Whether it's someone you date for a week or someone you're with for 10 plus years. It's just like we meet

ourselves and each other. And I think especially I'll say like from my perspective as a woman, like I think it's important that we know how to do those things for ourselves. I got so jealous though. I had such like a moment. I was watching reels and there's this reel that was really cute, but it actually really

bothered me and not for these people, but more so for the part of myself that I think kind of wants this where there's a, I don't know if you saw this, like a compilation where they were like talking to their man and being like, Hey, I'm going to, sorry, I can't pay the mortgage this month. I can't pay the rent this month. And the man's like,

What are you talking about? And I was like, oh, that paradigm of someone just handling everything. There's still a part of me that like so yearns for that. But there's also a part of me that I don't think could, I don't know that I'll ever totally want that. Oh, I know. I know. Yeah. It's like, that's the thing too. It's like, but you know what's funny? You'll get it when you don't want it. I'm in an experiment phase right now where I'm like, what do I want and what am I available for? I think it's like you get that stuff when you don't want it.

You know what I mean? But you don't need it. Yes. Yes. Exactly. But already feeling in the energy of having my own back and coming out of this relationship and fortunately being in a beautiful position because of my life and my business and everything, my friendships, I'm just like, oh, this is what it's like to be held in my own feminine. Girl. And I have to have that moving forward in any and all circumstances.

like any and all interactions because that was not available to me in this relationship. It just wasn't the dynamic we created. Yeah. I want to talk about that journey with being in the masculine and then moving into like a more feminine place because I've seen you do that in your business and your personal life and relationships. And you know what's also funny too, babe, is that I think

I think ours was mirrored too where our bodies changed when we were in the feminine more. My style changed. Yes. Like my whole like energy changed and softened. And –

I don't think I ever had the desire to be more in my feminine. I think I had the desire to feel better. I had the desire to be more of myself. And I had the desire to be well and to heal. Yes, yes. And so in that process, I healed and became more feminine and soft and true and real. And I think it's been so stunning. And now to be in a place where I'm in with dating, where I can be in the feminine. And it is like...

just the best experience. It's a delicious experience. So there was a book that an old client of mine gifted me called Intimate Communion by David Data. And it was about like ravenous, rapturous feminine. And I remember listening to it and being like,

What? Like, is that an option? Because I've never felt safe. And when I look back on, because I've transformed my life. I went from 50 bucks in my bank account, living here in LA, so ungrounded, so unbelievably unwell.

to being like, I'm the only one who can save my life. I am the only one who can show up. Like that paradigm you were talking about, my old belief was like, someone is going to make this better for me. And I would date people based on what I felt they could do that I didn't think I could do for myself. So I was never, ever making clear choices. I've never totally made clear choices. You know, what's interesting about that, just wanted to bring that up is that's funny because I was the same, but then in relationship, it was all on me.

Yeah. So having that dichotomy where I'm like, someone's going to save me, but in relationship, this is all my responsibility. I'm responsible for everything. Isn't that crazy? Cause I was like for, for every part of it, the growth, the dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, like all on me.

And I remember listening to this book and this was a couple of years ago. So I was still very much in my relationship. No plan really of ever not being in it. And I remember listening to this and, and there's a test in it to like discover your like core, um, uh, what is it called? Like sort of your core polarity. And I was like, Oh, I'm, my core is feminine. Um,

But I function as masculine because I've always seen that as the way that's going to save me, that's going to get me what I want, that's going to help me feel safe. And even like I think back on when I used to date here and I remember going on a date with this man. I was probably 26 or 27. And I just remember having this hyper masculine shield up. And I literally remember being so

so rude to him. And cause I was just terrified of him. He was very centered in himself, very tall and just very like powerful in his own way. And I was so rude. And so it was weird, like looking back and I, I forgive myself for

But then later we ended up dating and he ran through that paradigm of mine. Like he bulldozed it and saw what like a hurt, insecure little girl I was. And he...

That was like, obviously nothing ever became of that experience, but that was where I got to really witness, even though it was maybe only a couple months, I think that we dated and we were like hooking up. I got to see that part of myself. So even in all my chaos in my life, I've always had self-awareness and that's what I feel like has always helped me.

keep stepping up the steps, you know what I mean? Where it's like I'm aware and I'm grateful to the people that I call in from my marriage to the people that I've had flings with. Every single thing has shown me where I'm running a pattern and where I can heal so I can be happier and I can actually create what I want. God, that is I think a number one aspect of my friends is self-awareness.

Because I never have to worry. I never have to worry. I'm like, we're all good. You're all good. You're seeing this. I'm watching you. You're watching me. And in the flings, yeah, it is so beautiful because when you're a conscious person, you can have so much fun with it and use it for growth and use it for depth. And I think being able to now be completely safe within myself and in my body, you know,

And that safety in myself and my body allows me to be completely surrendered in my feminine with men. Yes. Is like, I'm so grateful that I'm not going to die without having experienced it. Yeah. It is making me emotional to think about. It's the most beautiful thing on earth to be with a man and be fully surrendered. Yeah. Whether it's sex, whether it's intimacy, whether it's connection.

And it is like the most magnetic thing on earth. It is. It's so special. And I think when women are in the masculine, it's because of fear. Yes. The masculine is a shield. You are, as a trauma response, responding from fear by being in the masculine because the masculine is what is accepted in society. So you're looking to fit in. You're looking to feel safe by being in the masculine in a masculine world and the masculine paradigm.

And so the more secure you became in yourself, the more secure I became in myself, the less masculine we felt we needed to be and the more feminine we could be and the more soft we could be. And I think so many women right now are running so much masculine energy because they don't feel safe in themselves. They don't feel safe in their life. And I think I was in relationship being the masculine and then I was with...

someone that was more feminine because I was running so much masculine. I remember one of my guy friends...

said after my divorce, he's like, you are like water now. He's like, you are so soft and like all of these things. And he's like, well, it's because you had two husbands. You had Lindsay and you had your husband. Or no, you had two wives. You had Lindsay and then you had your husband. And I was like the man. I was the man of the house. I was the man with Lindsay. I was the man with him. And stepping out of that and being able to be like, I'm going to create safety within myself. I don't need anyone else.

Oh, it's just so beautiful. So if we were both, I guess, to give people advice on, or women advice on how to be in their, their feminine more, what would you say? I just love that you're even asking me this because a couple of years ago I had a client and I remember she was like, can you give me some perspective on being more in my feminine? She's a, she owned a business and I was like, no, I can't give you that advice. I said, I don't,

I don't know how I'm not. And I had to be honest. And that was a kind of a jarring moment, but I didn't know what I was missing until now. I didn't know. And so I suppose my perspective and being like a really loving, gentle little newbie with this

Um, it's funny cause every morning that I wake up now, I listened to feminine, uh, affirmations on YouTube. I'm loving them. Love. I used to like, I used to judge stuff like this, to be honest, because it didn't feel safe. And when I was in that hyper masculine of like, this is what I'm going to feel safe within. Yeah.

I just saw all of that stuff as silly. Me too. And that's kind of funny how they're like, ha ha, well, you'll be on our team real soon. But I believe that just to touch into this and then I'll share some perspective that I have. But I just feel like this kind of thing, the feminine is experiential. It's not of the logic. It's not objective. It is an experiential thing.

state of being that you can't force. The moment you're forcing it is the moment you ain't in it and it's not real. And I feel like, you know, again, this is so new for me because stepping out of my relationship and stepping out of the dynamic that we created, it's just been remarkable to, that's why I said the word delicious because my experience of it is delicious. And something I've been thinking about lately is how easy it is.

And that used to piss me off is when people would say it's easy. And I'd be like, what do you mean? Everything's hard. Everything's hard. If you're not struggling for it, then it's not real. And so I would just say maybe to anyone who maybe sees a little bit of themselves and where I've been and what I've, what's felt safe for me to embody, you know, to practice allowing life to guide you.

I remember many, many years ago, I went to my first festival. I think I was like 22 and I was walking around this like altar and it was like this living altar. It was so beautiful. And I remember there was this beautiful little placard and it said longing and yearning is the feminine aspect of God. Like to long and to yearn is the aspect of the divine that is

is so magnificent. I was like, what do you mean? I don't want to long or yearn for anything. But what life has taught me, and especially recently, because I've had to be in the magic dark so many times and sit there and say, I trust you while I'm feeling like I'm dying. And

And then right around the corner is something that blows my mind. Right around the corner is the thing that I've always asked for, that I've always wanted. You can't control. I've lived my life attempting to control everything all the time. It's how I was raised. My mom, who I love deeply, she's a Capricorn. Control is her DOC, her drug of choice. That's what I learned. And

And as I get older, I see every single thing I've ever, ever tried to control and maneuver to meet my fears that I thought would make me feel safe. Those are always the things I had to freaking get myself out of at some point that got complicated, that were misaligned. And now it's like to me, to be in the feminine and to be in that place of receptivity in your life is

How much like faith can you have? How much can you like let go of needing something or someone to fit your mold and know that you are guided and taken care of? Like,

And I'm in deep practice with that right now. But I even had like a little experiment with myself a couple weeks ago as I was stepping out of this and I was like, your body will tell you everything. I'm like, so when you're meeting people, whether it's like friendships or a potential business partnership or maybe like a guy is talking to you.

You just listen to your body. Your body will tell you. And that to me also is another aspect, I think, of feminine safety that I never experienced in my life is like feeling safe to be embodied in this body. And I think I've seen both of us move through that in such a beautiful way. A hundred percent. Yeah, that was so beautiful. I think for me, my advice for people getting, women getting into the feminine, I think it's something you noted, but I, it just made kind of light bulbs for me.

I had such judgment of the feminine. And so I think breaking through to desire to be in the feminine but then also having judgment of it is two different energetic signatures. My judgment of the feminine was it's lame, so corny. Like I just felt like it was corny, cheesy, lame, da-da-da-da. And I'm like, wow, I had –

there's so much media programming around what it was to be in the feminine or what it meant. It meant that you weren't cool, you were soft, all these things. So I had to let go of judgment of that. And I still have some judgment of it that I have to work through around that. I think for me, it's seeking to find more wholeness and where I can find more love within myself. And the feminine is naturally a place of love. So is the masculine. But when I find that whole completeness

that's where I can find more femininity. And then really focusing on my inner mother, that very nurturing aspect of me. I'm very, very nurturing. And if I'm an inner mother to all the aspects of me, all the parts that I'm shameful, that I feel guilty about, all the parts that are ugly or shadowy, and I can have love and reverence and acceptance for that, that is the ultimate femininity. Like

seeing everything with reverence and love and giving myself grace is just such a stunning thing.

I think also too, changing the way that I worked was really important and finding more safety from like a financial and like a stability perspective is huge. Allowed me to soften, allowed me to move. And I think lastly, getting out of relationship dynamics with friends. I was even in friend relationships like this, who you saw and romantic that were people that were creating a lack of safety within myself, which was,

made me feel like I had to be in protective mode, which was more strategic, more controlling, and more masculine. But the movement towards greater femininity and softness is like such a beautiful, powerful journey that, you know, I want for everyone. And I want for the world because this type of openness and receivership, I think,

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I want to acknowledge you and us because I'll never forget. I was living in Palm Springs a couple of years ago and I remember calling you on the phone and we were both so in it in our relationships because there was part of us. I think there's little moments of our soul's journey where we just have these deep

deep moments of clarity, but we're maybe not ready. Our human self isn't ready to execute the change or the mission just yet, but I'll never forget like you and I being on the phone and both of us having this moment of realizing how over like the over-functioning piece

And how exhausted we felt. I remember what it was. And how our polarities were so off and like the sexual dynamic was off. And like I know there was this part of us. I think there's also this paradigm in women, at least I've identified it in myself, where it's like I can fix it. I can heal it. It's on me. It's on me. It's on me. And it's just like I just think –

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's so many women right now. Because it's also taking sovereignty from him too by doing that. And that was actually what was my unlock where I was like, this isn't loving to him. It's not. You're not loving to him right now. You think that you're being loving to him because you see a better future for him. You see more, but that's not. You wanting to change him is not love. Yes. And...

This is where I think it gets tricky in our personal growth and self-development space with relationships is that we now believe we have the power to change and transform anything. Yes. And I think women take that on and then apply that to other people. And it's actually about you changing you, changing your relationship with yourself, your relationship with your life, not applying that to

things outside of you. And I think I thought if I changed enough, I could change another person. Yes. Same. And you just change your relationship dynamic and eventually they vibrate out. Yeah. And so I had to stop trying to focus so much on changing other people. I think a lot of the work I do with women one-on-one is coming back in.

This is about you. This is actually not about someone else. It's about coming back in. But it's been so beautiful to see you in this process. And I'm so grateful, you know, to have had you. Like it was, it wouldn't have been the same without you, you know. And I know that for you as well. And now to have similar journeys where we could be dating together is... It's pretty fun. It's a delight. I mean, you're...

You're deeper in than me. And I'm just like, oh, I'm excited. I feel more ready because of like our conversations. I love you so much.

It's so much fun. It's so sweet. I send like voice notes at like 12 a.m. I'm like, oh my God. Hello. We have our own podcast. Like our text thread is just, it is insane. And then we send each other like our outfit selfies. And then like I send you like, yeah, it's, it's, it's the best. There's no words. It's the best. You going through big transitions and such a huge process. Yeah.

And being able to navigate them and being able to have a good relationship with change is like a huge through line of our book, almost 30. Being able to navigate and be with change because that is like an undercurrent of your life. And especially when you want a big life and when your soul came here for more.

You as an astrologer, how do you see the Saturn return? Because I do want to kind of land on for our audience the importance of not only Saturn return, but being able to navigate times of change and transformation. I mean, as a Capricorn rising, so your ascendant sign, you have a planetary ruler. So for me, Saturn rules my chart. It rules like how I function. You're a Virgo rising, so Mercury rules how you function and like, look what you do. Yeah.

So Saturn is an energy that I've learned to absolutely become best friends and deeply respectful of. A lot of people, and I think kind of in like mainstream astrology, people can get real hung up on Saturn return. And guess what? Saturn's a part of your life. You have Saturn returns, Saturn squares, Saturn oppositions, Saturns.

Saturn is always engaging with you in some capacity, but the Saturn return and the Saturn square, the Saturn opposition, the

Those are some key points and moments in your life where essentially what is happening is that your soul, wherever Saturn is placed in your chart, which is what the Saturn return is alluding to, wherever Saturn is placed in your chart natally, that is a space in place of your soul's blueprint, your soul's journey. That's like, I haven't figured this out yet. I have a lack of maturity in this area of my blueprint. And so I'm going to be able to

So I got to do some growth here. And that's why the Saturn return, our first Saturn return in our late twenties is so, it can be cataclysmic and fricking rock you to your core because your soul has not taken classes in that area just yet. And you're, you're being asked to mature, grow, and even heal in a really big way that you haven't done yet. So, um,

Saturn is such a special energy, truly. I actually just taught a masterclass recently because I love this energy so much. Because when you make peace with it, you can create anything. And to speak to the Saturn return specifically at the late 20s,

That's also the idea as well of you maturing and placing a through line, actually more of a line in the sand between your young self and who you're growing and stepping into. And you have to know that when you take accountability for your life and you don't avoid what is hard and you integrate it,

That is actually what creates the freedom, the liberation, the spaciousness, the clarity for you to intentionally receive the life that you so deeply want. And I learned this from Jen Sincero, but the word desire, desire, is like of the father. It's like desire, the desires you have that... And I also think this is a part of the feminine too, is like

resting and accepting our desires. It's even why I knew I had to leave my relationship and why my relationship was over for both of us because we were not getting our desires met, our deep core desires. So consider Saturn and Saturnian energy to be a magnificent catalyst that actually helps you to create the life you desire. But you're going to have to become the person who can handle it, the person who can create it

And the person who wants you receive it can maintain it. And that's what Saturn energy helps you do. That's huge. So your Saturn return helps you that. And, you know, like when I've talked to my community this last year, they're like, girl, you've been going through it. And I'm like, yeah, well, it's my Saturn square. I'm 37. And Saturn square, the way I see that, it's a square in astrology is like a very pressurized point. Right.

for opportunity for integration. And oh my God, it's like I had to take the budding awareness from my Saturn turn in my late twenties. And then Saturn checks in and is like, have you really integrated this?

And, you know, Saturn also rules the father. So losing my father and not to say you have a Saturn square, you're going to lose your father. But for me, that's how it materialized. And it's just like all of these things in these Saturnian themes. But on the other side, I'm living my desire and I've given myself the open space for

for the universe to play through and express through my life instead of me trying to control. So Saturn energy will teach you that, but it will not be easy, especially if you resist it. The big one. Huge. I love the desire piece of the feminine because that's what I practiced recently in this dating

Yes.

Like I am in full desire for this from my heart, but I'm in full surrender if it manifests. Oh, I love that. It's just like so beautiful. But yeah, the Saturn return period and really that period shows us how to be with times of change. And it really can create this relationship where we can approach change with excitement and grace and grit and like –

seeing it as an opportunity for better. And I think in the book, that's my deepest desire is to really help people see that this change that they're going through or experiencing can be the opportunity to build a life that they love. And for all the changes that they want in their life, that this can be the time when they get them because it's happening. Like even for you, it's like this change in your relationship happened because you desired a greater relationship life experience. And now you're

That desire is manifesting. And this is a part of that. Even though it's hard and sad, this is a part of that process. Yeah. You know, a big thing that's been coming through for me lately is like sometimes like, yeah, we want these things, but we don't realize that we have to let go of something in order for there to be space. And I know that's true for both me and my ex-husband is just like for him to call in and create the life he wants and

He had to let go of me and I had to do the same. And I think that that is such a loving act to be able to do that. And not even, let's say, in the context of solely a relationship, but also to yourself. Sometimes we think letting go of something, we're just experiencing loss.

we're not seeing the full totality of what we're gaining and what we have the potential to experience. That's like just energy and physics. It's like the losing creates the void for the thing to be filled up in. And I really, really love the piece that you mentioned. And I've been talking about this recently where it's like,

If you want these things that you're saying you want in your life, you have to trust that you're being sculpted to hold them. Yep. Because if you are sitting in your basement, living at home in a job that you hate, in a body you hate, in relationships that you hate, and then you're desiring to be in a place where you love your relationship, you love your life, you're making tons of money, you feel sexy and hot, you have...

you know, everything you want, you in that place could never hold that. And I've had to realize and learn that too. Each day I'm expanding my capacity to hold greatness and hold love and hold joy. Like even today I've had a really beautiful, soft day. I've just been weeping all day from love and just the Holy Spirit in my life today. And like,

I am just like, I am right now in this moment opening every single aspect of my cellular and auric being to hold more love and to hold more light and to hold more goodness. And that capacity has to be gently brought on or else you just would never. That's why people...

When they win the lottery, they lose it immediately. They don't have the strength and capacity to hold that type of energy. This is also one of my favorite conversations because that's how I see money. It's not about – this is actually the core of my work, and it took me years to figure this out. But I was like, we have to remember – and I've learned this the hard way –

It's not literally about I'm going to make more money and that's going to solve everything. You have to be the kind of person who knows how to hold money and take care of it. And money is a relationship just like any other. Just like if you and I, Krista, and like the caliber of like woman that you are and the caliber of woman that I am, we've also had in the many years we've been friends, we've had to grow and evolve to be the type of friend that

Yeah.

But I think there's been this magnificent, and I'll say from like my experience of being in your life where it's like I've also learned how to check myself and how to hold myself and grow and heal and let go of certain aspects that couldn't hold you, that couldn't meet you in the woman you're becoming. And I think that everything worth having and holding in our lives is

it will require us to step into our potential and we will not always like it. Like Saturnian energy, speaking of that, we will not always like the lessons of Saturn in our lives. We won't always like these life transitions, but just because something is tough, it doesn't mean it isn't right for you. And I just think that's like, you know,

I feel very grateful to have this Capricorn Ascendant. When I was younger, being an Aries, there's a square between those signs. It was very hard and I kind of hated it. And this is even before I was aware of astrology and aware of my natal chart. But it's like looking back, I'm like, oh my God, getting these two things to meld and communicate has truly helped me become such a powerful, impactful person, not only to myself, but for other people. So-

Yeah, I love that. In the book, one of our taglines is turn your mess into magic. Oh, I love that. And it's really about that, like turning what you think maybe is rock bottom or is the worst into something that's like beyond what you could have ever dreamed. What are you right now, what would you say to a woman that's navigating a time of like great change or even like a divorce?

Oh, I would just say like, oh my God. Well, first, like, just know you're loved. Know that there is love inherent in what feels like the tower, what feels like the deepest pain of your life where you're sitting, you know, the amount of times I've woken up in the middle of the night to be like, what is like grief is powerful and grief can be frightening because it feels like it envelops you.

But just know that in that void is where the magic can meet you. It's where God universe can meet you. It's where your team can meet you. It is where you can be shown up for. And just know that just as we were talking about sometimes to actually call in and hold space for what you truly desire and the life that you are here to lead that source knows is yours.

Sometimes you will have to let go and you will have to be alone or you will have to surrender something that made you feel safe in order to really step into the magic and to trust that you're right where you're meant to be. And I know that for certain because, yeah, that's been my whole process this last year. And it will continue to be. Elated. It's so great. To have you on this journey.

This is so great. I love where this went, babe. This is so beautiful. I can't tell you how happy... There's actually no one in my life that I'd rather have single with me. Yeah.

So I remember there were moments where I'd call you and you were like having a fun time. And I'd be like, there's this part in my heart that was like, gosh, I would love to experience that right now. But I was like, you know, there's aspects of this that are great. I love being partnered. Daddy do. But there was this deeper yearning in me that was like, I want to go to Equinox with Krista today. You want to go to this?

When we go to where I, my fishing hole. Oh, it's just so funny. Your stories are just the greatest. I feel like they just pulled me through. I'm like, I don't know if I can find a man. Cause the, the richness of the stories I have, I've had this conversation with male friends of mine where they're just like, I want partnership or I want this or I want that. But like,

I'm enjoying like what I'm doing right now. And I think that's another thing we just surrender control around because when you know, you know, I truly believe that. And yeah, it's just, this is the perfect season right now. It's so fun. I love you so much. I love you, baby. I'm so proud of you. I love you. Okay, guys, we'll see you on the next one. We love you so much. Bye-bye.

Thank you so much, Natty Ice. Natalia Benson, coming to you live. Hope you guys enjoy that one. Love you. Yeah, you can follow her on Instagram at Natalia Benson, NataliaBenson.com. And make sure to pre-order our book, Almost30.com slash book. Krista and I are so excited.

and so excited for this to be on your bedside table. We really believe that this is going to be a guide for you in any season of change, whether you're going through your late 20s into your 30s or maybe you're moving through an intense season of change at another point in your life. It is full of personal stories and wisdom from podcast guests, research, science. It is packed.

We love you. We appreciate you. We'll see you soon. Bye. Bye.