We're sunsetting PodQuest on 2025-07-28. Thank you for your support!
Export Podcast Subscriptions
An Evening with Elif Shafak and Peter Frankopan
2025/4/18
Intelligence Squared
E
Elif Shafak
Elif Shafak: 我的新书《天上有河流》以雨滴为线索，串联起古代美索不达米亚到当代伦敦的三个故事，展现了不同文化和时空的交汇。书中亚兹迪女孩纳林的原型来自于我的祖母，她是一位充满智慧的女性，尽管没有受过高等教育，但她对女性教育的重视和人生智慧深刻地影响了我。小说中每个角色都采用了不同的写作风格，例如，纳林的部分采用了更多对话的形式，以反映口头故事讲述的重要性。我关注口述历史，因为书写历史往往忽略女性和少数民族的视角，而口述文化可以帮助我们了解这些被遗忘的经历，即使是迷信也反映了人们最深层的恐惧，值得我们关注。文学可以弥补历史的遗忘，关注那些被书写历史忽略的女性和少数民族的视角。不同文化拥有不同的叙事传统，例如，巴尔干、小亚细亚、黎凡特和中东地区的叙事传统更加循环往复，如同《一千零一夜》一样。我的小说将三个不同时空的人物故事交织在一起，展现了叙事的多元性和复杂性。在移民家庭中，不同世代对记忆和遗忘的态度存在差异，这导致了家庭内部的复杂关系。每个家庭中都至少有一位记忆的守护者，小说中的齐利哈就是她家庭的记忆守护者，她研究被掩埋的河流，这象征着我们掩盖的历史和需要被重新审视的事物。城市中被掩埋的河流象征着我们掩盖的历史和需要重新审视的事物，这与环境危机有着密切的联系。我的写作灵感来自于内心，而不是理性思考，有时这会带来风险，但这是创作过程中的有机部分。写作是一个充满自我怀疑和焦虑的过程，但写作本身也赋予我能量。出版行业存在着许多隐形的壁垒，特别是对于来自西方世界以外的女性作家，这限制了她们创作的多样性。我们应该挑战那些将身份标签固定化和单一化的观念，每个人都是复杂的个体，不应该被简化为单一的身份。“水的记忆”这个概念在我的小说中至关重要，一些科学家对这个概念的热情追求，即使面临质疑和损失，也值得我们关注。我的创作受到了祖母口述故事的影响，在她看来，水是有生命的，有记忆的，这影响了我对自然的理解。水在我的小说中占据特殊地位，但并非凌驾于其他元素之上，自然界的平衡至关重要。作为一名非英语母语作家，我在英语写作中既感到自在，又意识到自身身份的特殊性，这种身份的模糊性赋予我创作的自由，也带来一些自我意识的挑战。我热爱语言，我的写作风格是语言驱动的，我重视语言的细微差别和丰富性。我选择用英语写作是为了获得更大的创作自由，远离土耳其国内的审查和压力。我对土耳其语和英语都有着不同的情感连接，土耳其语更适合表达忧郁和怀旧，而英语更适合表达幽默和讽刺。我更愿意将自己定义为一个好奇心旺盛的作家，而不是一个勇敢的作家，保持童心般的好奇心对艺术家来说至关重要。在我的小说中，我使用了新旧词汇的结合，这反映了我对语言多样性的追求，我不认同将语言使用与政治立场简单关联的观点。博物馆需要就其收藏品的来源和历史进行更深入的对话，不能回避其背后复杂的政治和历史背景。写作既是理性的，也是感性的过程，直觉在写作中扮演着重要的角色，它需要心灵与头脑的连接。我们需要保护集体记忆，并将它传递给下一代，但当前的教育体系和思维方式可能会阻碍这一过程。我将写作风格定义为直觉的，有时甚至是古老的，我对新技术持谨慎态度，并选择性地使用它。我们需要区分信息、知识和智慧，当前的信息过载阻碍了知识和智慧的获取，我们需要关注知识和智慧的积累，而不是仅仅追求信息量的增加。我们需要谨慎选择信息平台，关注知识和智慧的积累，而不是被信息过载所淹没。我们需要打破出版行业中存在的隐形壁垒，允许作家们进行跨文化创作，读者将是最终的评判者。文学创作不应局限于“写你所知”，而应拓展到“写你所感”，心灵的触动比理性思考更重要。写作需要忘却外界的声音，专注于创作本身，只有完成作品后才会开始担忧读者的反应。作家不应该试图说教，而应该关注内心深处的情感，创作出具有细微差别和多样性的作品。文学可以改变人们的生活，因为它可以让人们看到不同的世界和可能性。我们需要保护集体记忆，并将它传递给下一代，但当前的教育体系和思维方式可能会阻碍这一过程。
Peter Frankopan: (由于技术原因，Peter Frankopan 的发言内容缺失，无法提供核心论点和证据。)
supporting_evidences
Elif Shafak: 'Each character demanded their own style. When we come to George Smith or Arthur's section, Victorian England, it's written in a much more Dickensian style and the vocabulary is like that too. The modern character, we'll talk about her later, it's much more contemporary literature. But when I wrote Naryn's section, the Yazidi girl's section, there are more dialogues there.'
Elif Shafak: 'I'm intrigued by what you said. I think I like to think of literature like roots, the roots of a tree. So all those roots are connected with other roots of other trees under the ground. We don't see those connections. The key to me, but those connections are there. For me, the key thing is not to make our reading list solely Eurocentric. Shakespeare is magnificent. Shakespeare taught me so much.'
Elif Shafak: 'Water memory is a concept that was so crucial for me. And I also became very intrigued by these scientists. Now, I'm going to tread very carefully because I know this is a controversial subject. Many scientists say it's not scientific. But the very fact that some scientists have been drawn to this idea of water memory is'
Elif Shafak: 'Some novelists are plot driven, some novelists are character driven. And then there's a third category of novelists for whom language is a passion. And we believe that language can be, you know, your love, not a passion, not only for poets, but also for novelists as well. So I belong in the third category here.'
Elif Shafak: 'You know, if I start thinking how people are going to respond to what I'm working on, I cannot write. I need to forget that. And also earlier I touched upon some of my experiences. I was put on trial for writing a novel called The Bastard of Istanbul. Two other books of mine have been sent to a prosecutor's office. One was for insulting Turkishness.'
Deep Dive
This chapter explores Elif Shafak's inspiration for writing her novel, focusing on the Yazidi community, the character of Narin, and the use of different literary styles to depict various time periods. It also delves into the importance of oral storytelling and the role of literature in preserving cultural memory.
- Shafak's novel, There Are Rivers in the Sky, is an epic story of interconnection spanning ancient Mesopotamia to contemporary London.
- The novel charts the lifespan of a raindrop and is anchored by the lives of three characters.
- Shafak's writing style adapts to different time periods and characters, using Dickensian style for Victorian England and contemporary style for modern characters.
- Oral storytelling is crucial to Shafak's work, reflecting the importance of oral traditions in preserving cultural memory.
Shownotes Transcript