An Evening with Matt Haig: Embracing Hope, Wonder and the Power of the Imagination (Part Two)
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Welcome back to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Cirenti. Today's recording is part two of our recent live event with author Matt Haig. Matt spoke to broadcaster and podcaster Bryony Gordon recently at Union Chapel, live in London. They discussed mental health, the affirming power of fiction, and Matt's new novel, The Life Impossible. If you haven't heard part one, we recommend jumping back an episode to get up to speed.

Let's rejoin the conversation now, live on stage at Union Chapel.

So if a novel is a selfie of your brain at the time that you wrote it, the Life Impossible, and I don't know how many people, I'm sure you've all read it. If not, by the way, I've completely forgot to do this housekeeping at the beginning. Matt will be on stage signing books at the end of this. And this is going to end at 8.30. And we are going to go to audience questions. This is terrible doing this at 7.37. LAUGHTER

I was supposed to do this at 7:01. We are going to go to audience questions at 8pm. So start thinking, guys. Because there's already ones from the people watching online at home. Hello to them. - Are we watched online? - Yeah.

Well, there are definitely three people. That's good to know. There's someone called Anna, someone called Tom and someone called Angela. They're watching. Don't know if anyone else is. Okay, hello to them. I did an event at Edinburgh Book Festival, which I didn't know was being...

watched online. Right. And I even said in the event, I said, "Because my mother's not here." And then I started going on a therapy session about my mother. And then my mother said, "Well, that was interesting." Me and your dad have been watching that for the last hour. What's your mum's name? Is it Angela? No. It's Mary. - Oh, I'll look her up. - Mary Alice Haig. Okay.

Right, so I lost track completely of what... Okay, well... I'm trying to remember. No, my mum isn't here. Did you try to remember your mum's name? What? No, I remember my mum's name. Is Matt's mum here? No, she's not here.

I do get a lot of my stuff from her. And she will say that. My mum, bless her, was adopted. And she's never known her parents. She doesn't know who her parents are. Doesn't know health history or anything like that. And I think that feeling of being... Especially in this age now where we're obsessed about...

identity and who we are and where we fit and our labels and everything. And I think when you're adopted and you never even knew who your parents were, you don't know what kind of... I think that inevitably places you and makes you insecure about everything through life because you don't know what class you are, you don't know where you really fit in. So she always...

She's middle class but she went very middle class. She always had to have the signifiers of where a lot of that insecurity came out in me in different ways. It's kind of interesting how insecurities are sort of like, it's no one's fault but they're a domino of insecurity.

And trauma. And all that fun stuff. So the snapshot of your brain while you were... The trauma that you were going through while you were reading, writing even. Sorry, The Life Impossible. So the themes in this book that really came up for me are sort of guilt and forgiving yourself. I mean, Grace really doesn't like herself. Yeah. Guilt. And I like...

She's got a kind of legitimate reason for being guilty, but it turns out throughout the course of a book, a lot of what she's feeling bad about, she didn't need to be feeling bad about. And I think I've always had guilt. It's very hard, isn't it? Because you don't want to say, I don't have things to feel guilty about because...

we kind of, I mean all of us, I mean I'm nearly 50, I've got lots of things to feel guilty about throughout the course of my life and the selfish behaviours I've done and things like that and I've got guilty totally about my 20s even though you could say on the one hand you couldn't help it because you were mentally ill, on the other hand I was an absolute nightmare. It was a nightmare for Andrea because I'd gone from one extreme to the other overnight and then she went from girlfriend to carer overnight for years and then

So then when you have mental health problems and you're not the perfect partner and everything else, and then you have that guilt because she's already gone through that. So I have a lot of guilt, but I feel like I can be guilty about real things, but I can be also very guilty about...

And this is the interesting thing about depression is working out what's real and what's not. Because a lot of the criticism, and I did get quite a lot of criticism for reasons to stay alive eventually. Because when something becomes that bad,

that big and you become like a mascot for mental health or you know but you're not representing it in the right way to what someone else is going through. That was the thing I struggled with because I'd try and speak universally because I felt that was what I was trying to do but then people were saying why is he speaking for me

And that would become... I've lost my train of thought. What was I talking about? I was going into therapy mode. Where was I going? Guilt. Oh, dear. Yeah, guilt about... No, depression. Depression being twisting everything. So people talk about... One of the things that people slag me off for a reason in their life was that I didn't acknowledge...

the sort of luck and privilege I had of having like parents I could go and live with, supportive partner, very lucky rare things that with hindsight I can be totally grateful for. But I think what was happening when I wrote Reasons to Stay Alive, I was placing myself into the mindset I was, into the mindset I was when I was ill and when I was recovering. And in that mindset,

I didn't think in terms of privilege, I didn't think in terms of luck. Because depression can flip everything. It's like it's the worst PR agency in your head. So, yes, I was lucky to have a partner, but what depression was saying is you're a burden on that partner.

you know, that's a reason for you not to be here. You know, you're slowing everyone down, you're weighing everyone down. Same with my parents. You know, I was back living with my mum when she was a stressed out teacher going through an Ofsted inspection and I was adding more stress and making my parents cry. And so you think they'd be better off without me. So yes, on paper, you know, it's... Well, not even on paper, it is luck.

And I wouldn't want to go into the timeline where I didn't have that. But it doesn't always feel like luck. And when you're at rock bottom, you know, having a little... That's the other thing I get confused. And I'm sure it's something you've had as well. And I'm sure anyone who writes about any kind of mental illness gets it. This sort of Olympic Games of misery where, you know, like your bog standard vanilla depression is measured against...

borderline personality disorder or psychosis and this sort of thing. And it's like

If you have, you know, I'm not saying, but I wouldn't, someone very, very close to me has gone through psychosis recently and I definitely would not want to go through what they went through. But what all I'm saying is if you're measuring miseries, if you're measuring something that makes you want, you know, if you're telling someone who literally was in a life-threatening situation for months of a life,

that was a lesser version of mental illness. It's like,

Anything can be serious. But also I think that people who would be saying that may be quite unwell themselves. And I think that you are, and this is an interesting thing, you exist, you have almost a million followers and you exist in a world where you're being very honest, very vulnerable but you speak for yourself.

I imagine it's... I mean, I know this on a much smaller level, that often the voices that you get, the criticism one gets on social media is almost... I can say in my head, "Oh, well, that's confirmation of all the..."

They're kind of in agreement with the awful, terrible things that I say to myself most of the time, which is sometimes, which is, you are lucky. You don't know how lucky you are. Why are you feeling like this, you useless piece of shit? Well, one good thing about... That was me talking to me, not you. Makes a difference. Literally, the last DM I got that I looked at

this morning was from an anonymous account that just said, "You are bullshit." And I was like, my voices in my head have now got their own social media account. You don't need voices in your head, you just need Instagram and to get people telling you, "You're bullshit." Okay. Yeah, thanks for the pep talk, mum.

You're not bullshit, you're wonderful. And I think you... No, that's because I get a little bit political. That's the other thing, like, you know... It's very hard in 2025. You know, if you're a sensitive person, you're responding like a pinball to the world. You know, you inevitably get political. And the way that intertwines with mental health and... I feel like... I don't know. I think...

It's an interesting position, isn't it? When you're responding to things but you're also the person that people respond to in real time. Social media can be kind of a... - A head fuck. - A head fuck. - That's the official word. - Yes, that's what I meant. Yeah, sorry, I'm really wallowing. I am treating it like a therapy session now. I love it. So, okay, well, let's talk about... So, can I read you another of my favourite quotes from "The Life Impossible"? Please.

This is Grace again. She says, "I'm a person who now realizes that our human understanding of the world is incredibly limited and that there is a bias not to believe things that don't fit our worldview. Sometimes we can't accept the truth that's right in front of our eyes." And this is the best bit, Matt. "Sometimes the mad people of one era become the sages of the next." Ooh. It's good, isn't it?

It's really good. That master's degree is really coming in. No. I don't know. You know, like, you can't watch yourself. I can't. I did ask him if he would read these out himself because I was like, no one's coming to see me. No, it's not that. It's not because I'm ashamed. It's just that, oh, God, I'm talking about my mum again. But my mum was a drama teacher. She's not sent a question in yet. Don't worry.

My mum was a drama teacher. She used to worry that I mumbled too much and didn't project my voice. And so she made me have speech and drama lessons when I was younger. So I'd go every sort of Tuesday evening to Mrs Mumby's house and then I remember there'd be about four shy kids whose mothers had made them come to...

It had obviously total adverse effects because you are just underlining the fact that this is really normal.

So every time I open a book to read it out, I just suddenly become like 11 years old again and I'm performing. You know, if I'm chatting to you, I'm just wanging on about... Well, but maybe we should turn this into a proper therapy session. No, no. And get you to read something out so that you can really explore those feelings. I'm starting to think it was a bad idea choosing you, Brian, your coercive ways.

I won't make you read it out. If you want me to, I will. Would anyone like to hear Matt read a bit of The Life Impossible? - See, they're on my side. - Everyone's like, "No." It's not very good anyway. It's just me nervous. No, it is really good. The book's really good. Okay, what's the bit you want me to read? I'll read a little bit. You choose a bit. It's your book. You wrote it. I'm not a book. I'm going to just open it on a random page and you're going to read it. Larger than thought.

That's the bit that the universe wants you to read right now. I have eye problems. Everyone, let's hold Matt through this, shall we? Take a deep breath. This is a really crap chapter. It's the worst chapter in the book. -We'll choose a different one. -No, it's all right. Oh, I feel really bad now. Actually, I can say something about this page. I know where this came from. I drove to Calais d'Oort.

I parked in the dusty car park and passed a sign by a restaurant that said, "Please do not leave. Any values in the car can be stolen." That is a real sign in Ibiza. I like it because you get a lot of that in Ibiza, the signs that the restaurants leave. I reached Atlantis Scuba and looked around for Alberto, but he wasn't there. There was only the black and white, wide-horned goat

Nostradamus. This is probably quite confusing if no one's read this book. He was outside the Atlanta scuba hut enjoying a bowl full of oats on the ochre dirt path. Alberto had been right when he said that Nostradamus was a misanthropic soul. His misanthropy wafted towards me along with his musky scent, which is the very worst extract in the life of a person. Come on!

That was brilliant. What was your drama teacher's name again? Mrs. Mumby. Mrs. Mumby? Yeah, so I had a mum and then I had a mumby. Mrs. Mumby, wherever she is now, would be so proud of you, Matt. I should.

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We're going to go to audience questions soon, so I hope you're going to get them ready. But as I said, there's a couple of people watching at home who have already asked questions. And Angela, not your mum, says, and this is a really good question, okay? She says, "You write female characters so well," which is true, "both in The Midnight Library and this one," meaning The Life Impossible,

Were they always going to be female protagonists? Were you ever worried about this when you were writing the novels? Nora in The Midnight Library wasn't. She was originally Adam. And I wrote a whole book of Nora as Adam. The first draft of The Midnight Library, it was about a man who was 10 years old of a Nora who was called Adam. And I just...

It just didn't work. There was a flatness to it. And I thought I was going to have to abandon the book. But I didn't want to abandon the book because I liked the concept. But then I realised it was a character. The thing I'm really bad at is writing, not writing men as such, but writing men my own age. Men who are sort of versions of me. I can do it in non-fiction, but I can't do it in fiction. I just can't write men.

a 40-something male person. Adam wasn't there. I think it's like when you see yourself in the mirror and you don't really know what you look like. I find it very hard to judge if the person's a character or if it's just an assemblage of stuff.

To create a character, I think personally, it helps to not be the character. To actually... for it to be a character. So, simply by changing the gender from Adam to Nora,

and making it not my age, it became a character that I could then warm to and feel for. And in the Midnight Library, to be fair, there's not actually much description of Nora. She's not even physically described, apart from having brown hair. There's one physical description of her, and that's it. She's not physically described. And that was deliberate, so people could sort of put themselves in her. She's sort of like a...

and every person that you can, male or female, you could put yourself in. I wasn't giving her too... Her situations were quite sort of niche in some ways but they weren't too gender specific or age specific sometimes. With Grace in this book, that was always going to be a woman of a certain age. Because I got the idea for the character,

while I was feeling like a woman of a certain age because another thing I inherited from my mother was bad veins on my legs. I had to have my veins removed from my legs, not for vanity, although it did look bloody awful, but because I had a blood clot in one of my veins, not a really dangerous kind of blood clot, but a pretty needed-and-operated-on kind of blood clot.

And so I was having this operation and I was researching this operation and 95% of people who have this operation are female over the age of 70. So I was feeling like... And after the operation, and it's quite an intense operation because it's local anaesthetic, but they give you... There's this long catheter. After the sort of 20 injections they give in both legs, there's this long catheter that they shove...

up your sort of calf and they burn the vein

from the inside, it makes me feel a bit weird thinking about it. So you're not feeling pain but you're feeling it, you're feeling what's happening. And I was just sort of focusing, there's a Van Gogh print in the medical room where I was having this done, I was just focusing on the swirly Van Gogh sky and thinking about in any situation, however uncomfortable, embarrassing, painful it is,

there's always a little spot of beauty in it if you focus. So I was just focusing. I was just trying to think of Van Gogh and ignoring the fact that I was in this situation. And after the operation for two weeks, I had to wear these very tight compression stockings on my legs. And I was very sore. So I was doing this every morning and I was like, my sore legs...

And yeah, write what you know. And so I had been a sort of 72-year-old Grace Winters for two weeks. Wow. I know all about being an old lady now. It's fine. So can I ask you, you've started writing another book, haven't you? I've just finished writing another book. This very morning, I had the word from my editor-in-chief

Francis Bickmore at Canongate. He said that we are ready to show it to the other publishers internationally and things. So, yeah, I'm feeling quite giddy today because I've finished a book and I'm not, I'm literally not allowed to say... I don't even know what the title is at the moment. It's got a title but we've got another possible title. So I'm not going to say anything about the title or I'm not going to say anything about the story.

But I will say it's kind of related... It's more related to, like, the world of The Midnight Library. And it's not a sequel. But it's something that I'm very...

happy about at this point in time. So it's like set in the Midnight Library universe? Yes. Like Marvel? Yes. Kind of. But it happened organically. I wasn't sitting down to do that. It just became, because the concept related, because that's the way my sort of head is drawn, the concept related and it was a sort of afterlife thing.

and it was a time travel... I'm saying too much. But it was kind of related. We keep him talking and he'll give us the whole plot by the end of the evening. I'm nervous, so I'm just... But yeah, it's a book and I've written it. And I can tell you it's about 70,000 words long at the moment, but it might lengthen. But that's a perfect... I feel like the perfect movie is one hour, 35 minutes.

And no movies are that anymore. Every movie in 1985 was that. They're like three or four hours, aren't they? Ridiculous. There's so many good movies that are just... I went to see that Furiosa, the Mad Max film, and I was loving it for an hour. And then it was Wednesday and I was like... I've been to the toilet 72 times.

It's the 70,000. Okay. So how long does it take you to, how long is the process of novel writing? Um,

It depends because the longest process is the process before you're really properly writing it where you're just getting the ideas in your head. Often that happens while you're working on something else. You'll be slightly working on a future thing. Midnight Library was an idea I'd had but not worked out how to do it for a good decade. I think that, and this one as well, I've wanted to do the one I've just written as kind of time travel-ish.

I'd wanted to do that for ages and I'd not worked out the device. And then I read something in a science magazine which made me think, "Ah, I know how I could do this and make it work." So...

It depends, but most of the writing is done when you're not writing. And then I get quite speedy when I'm writing. Because I'm not a planner, I'm very ADHD. And I can go into that hyper-focus mode where I'll just be a terrible human being for three months in that I won't be able to listen to what's going on around me, but I will be able to focus on the book until it's finished. And I'm scared of it falling out of my head, so I have to write super fast.

until it's done because my memory is not great so I'm scared I'm going to lose it and I don't really write notes, I'm not good at writing notes. So that part, the actual proper writing is about three months then editing can be dragged out a bit. I hate editing, I really hate editing because I don't know, it's like it takes a lot to conjure a feeling

That would be my only writing advice to people. I'm not good at the technical writing advice. But I think people miss out the feeling aspect. It's like music.

Trying to find that sincerity is important. So I think if you want a reader to feel something, you have to feel it yourself. So you have to tap into an emotion that's inside you to find the fuel to write something. But Life Impossible was really, even though it's a book about Ibiza and science fiction and lots of weird stuff happens, it's really a book about recovery and that feeling of the world being like,

alien to you, you know when you come around and you never thought you'd enjoy life again and then you suddenly see grass and the sky and you drink orange juice and all these mundane things become the most magical things because you can experience things again and you're out of that state of anhedonia and you can enjoy stuff. It's after 8 o'clock. Sorry, we're going to go for half an hour of audience questions.

We've got some roving minds. I feel like I've just killed the vibe there. What was I... Look, this guy at the back here, he's straight up. Yeah. Hello. Hi. Hey. I'll keep the you're my whole inspiration bit brief and just get straight to the question. Oh, you can do that bit. I like that bit. I mean, just... Well, actually, The Midnight Library was the first... About six months ago, The Midnight Library was the first book I'd read in about three years. And it just, like...

It just felt completely nuts to me. I was like, wow, this is amazing. How did I leave this alone for so long? I feel like you've helped me through a lot, man. Oh, wow. That's nice to hear. Thank you. You know, us autistic people have got to stick out for each other, man. Exactly. So the question I want to ask you is, when times are hard for you, when it feels like you're not going to get out of it, that it's just terrible, everything just sucks, what's the message you say to yourself that gets you through it?

I think it becomes easier, to be honest, as you get older and as you have... I don't know if you think the same, Briony, but I feel like the knowledge that you've done it before is sometimes the one thing that you hold on to. And so the only advantage, I suppose, of bad times and certainly bad mental illness times

is that you can use them in the future as sort of ammunition. I think in Reason Stay Alive I talk about a bank of bad days where you can sort of store up... People always say the opposite, don't they? They say, "Remember good times and times when you're happy." And there's a purpose for that.

because you need to remind yourself that life's worth living. But also there's a purpose to remembering the opposite, to remembering the very worst times that you've survived. And as you get older, you've had more survival. And so that helps me. And there's another thing that I wrote about how the way out of your mind is never through yourself.

and that can mean different things. Sometimes, depending on... If I have anxiety, not depression, but if I have anxiety, what I find helps is curiosity. If you can... And it's often impossible, but if you can possibly get into something, and it can be anything,

I can remember when Game of Thrones first, like season three or something, and I first got into Game of Thrones, I was having panic attacks again, I was feeling dreadful, and I just decided I was suddenly like a Game of Thrones geek, and I watched all the early seasons of Game of Thrones, and I'm not really like a...

I obviously write fantasy, but I'm not really like a Tolkien kind of fantasy person. But I really got into Game of Thrones. Or it could be like learning a language or anything. I find that if you get obsessed with something, that can help. If it's a sort of healthy obsession that balances your other obsession. And then practical things, like with agoraphobia, I overcame agoraphobia by...

Obviously agoraphobia is a total fear of going outside but with me it was a fear of what I'd feel outside which was I'd have a panic attack instantly as soon as I was outside under a sky. And I think I had in mind Howard Hughes and what I didn't want to be. I didn't want to be the, inverted commas, mad agoraphobic person

who can't leave her own room. So that fear became useful to beat the other fear and would force me out of the house and do things. But I think it comes back to change. My favorite word in the world, especially when I'm depressed, is a really unpoetic word.

neuroplasticity which they talk a lot about in Alzheimer's research and various other things about how our brain changes structure and our brain always changes structure all the time and so we are literally different people to who we were

10 years ago, we literally have a different brain and every experience, you know, tonight your brain might have expanded but it will have changed in some way because our brains are changing all the time. And so remembering that, you know, sometimes the person you stay alive for isn't maybe an external person but it's a future person of you who doesn't quite exist in the way they will.

and they'll be grateful you hang around. And that, when you're younger, is really hard to see. Because when you're sort of a young adult and you're in your 20s, you don't really appreciate how much you will change, you know, by the time you're old, like me, with my sock of tennis balls and back pain.

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