Earthling Ed: How to Argue with a Meat Eater (Part Two)
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Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. For this episode, we're rejoining for part two of our conversation with Earthling Ed on how to argue with a meat eater. Ed joined us recently at the Kiln Theatre in conversation with climate activist Dominique Palmer to share his insights on how we can all become better conversationalists and critical thinkers.

If you haven't heard part one, do just jump back an episode and get up to speed. But now it's time to rejoin the conversation with our host, Dominique Palmer. It was really interesting to hear about the arguments in relation to kind of capitalism and climate that you've faced and kind of tackled. I'm really interested to know also what are kind of the top three arguments in general that you've

you have found amongst your research in this book and just generally? What's the research out there saying against veganism? Yeah, well, I think there's a few ways of maybe approaching that question, which is what do I think are the most sort of prevalent arguments and also what do I think is maybe the most legitimate arguments? Let's start with the prevalent ones because the legitimate one is not so interesting, really. Well, okay, the legitimate one. If someone cannot be vegan,

then they cannot be vegan. And what I mean by that is there are people who are reliant on food banks, there are people in certain areas of the world who do not have the accessibility to plant foods, to be vegan. Then the argument for how they can or cannot be vegan is sort of made up for them, isn't it? And so in terms of a legitimate argument against veganism, then that makes sense. But the problem is that argument isn't against veganism as a philosophy, it's just against their... It just shows that they don't have the ability to be vegan.

or to eat a complete plant-based diet or whatever the barriers may be. So it's not that there's a legitimate argument against the philosophy and ethos of veganism or the wider overarching principles of veganism, just that we live in a world with huge amounts of inequality and just inaccessibility to certain things. And obviously that impacts many people's ability to be able to have the autonomy to make food choices in the way that, of course, we can. So that's a legitimate argument, right? But I think maybe some prominent arguments...

The health one is prominent, of course it is. People are worried that plant-based diets can't be healthy. I think that within that there are sort of arguments around B12 and even protein still raises heads. But I think rather than being so specific, I think there's just like a general view still that a plant-based diet is going to be lacking, is going to cause problems. And one thing that I find unusual about that is

When we think about the NHS, the British Dietetic Association, even outside of this country, the leading health and nutrition authorities on the planet all promote the fact that a plant-based diet can be healthy and nutritionally adequate for all stages of life. This is something that's adopted by health organizations all around the world, not just here, but of course here where we are. And I find it strange, therefore, because it shows how much of a distrust we have towards

authority figures and scientists and experts. And I think one thing that's interesting, we now live in a time where for a lot of people expertise is something to be looked down upon or at least something to look at with a critical eye. And we see this with climate scientists, how heavily attacked they are and how their lifelong research, their incredible research is just completely disregarded.

And it's not just that we have a distrust, or at least some people don't just have a distrust, there's genuine animosity

towards people whose life's work is about looking into these varying issues. And I think it's interesting with health especially how we have all these statements from health authorities and we trust these health authorities when it comes to the dangers of smoking, the dangers of drinking, the dangers of all sorts of things, but the dangers of meats? Maybe don't trust them as much. And the positives of a plant-based diet, well, we don't trust them at all.

And people sort of cherry-pick which signs they want to sort of trust. And if the NHS says smoking's bad, I believe them there. But if they say the plant-based diet can be healthy, well, I don't believe them there. And I think there is this wider...

sort of dissonance that can exist with how we relate to certain science. And that really exists within the climate science. And I think sometimes it exists within the climate community, environmentalist community, where people are very strong on the fact that we need to shift away from fossil fuels, and we need to change how we travel, and we need to change all these different areas of our lives. But when it comes to food, sometimes there can still be that barrier there for many environmental activists.

And I think that that barrier can sometimes come from maybe a sort of faith in maybe arguments around regenerative agriculture or grass-fed production. And that's another big argument that comes up. This idea that it's not the farming, it's just how we farm. And if we give cows more space and we allow them to graze on grass, then that will be positive for the environment.

Even though we see time and time again for the most highly respected scientific organizations on the planet and from the largest studies carried out looking into food and farming, that it is these forms of red meat production that are among the most harmful. And actually, when you look at, and I use this phrase very loosely, quote unquote, more sustainable animal farming, that is more intensive. It's chicken farming, it's egg farming, because the resources used are far lower, the amount of land needed is obviously far lower, and they're not producing methane.

But we have this movement, this incredibly anti-scientific movement, which is trying to tell us that red meat is actually a climate solution.

So not only do we have people telling us that red meat is good for us and we should eat more of it, we're also being told by certain people that it's a climate solution. And that's incredibly dangerous because it's a complete distortion of the evidence. It is not that we should eat more red meat and that red meat farmed in this way is going to be good. Doing that is going to cause catastrophic damage to our species, but importantly to the planet and indeed to those animals as well, from biodiversity loss and emissions to, of course, what happens to these animals as well.

So it's this really strange thing where some of these most prominent arguments contradict what we're being told by the authorities and experts in these fields.

And I think that it's strange, and the media has a role in perpetuating this dynamic, but it's strange how we view farmers as sort of equal interlocutors with climate scientists or health scientists or experts within these different fields. And what I mean by that is if you wanted to ask someone whether or not Coca-Cola was good for you, would you ask Coca-Cola? No.

If you wanted to find out whether fossil fuels were bad for the environment, would you go to BP and Shell and say, hey, I'm trying to do some research into fossil fuels. Are they bad? But with the animal farming community, we go to the National Farmers Union. We go to the AHDB.

And media and stuff will say, "Well, you know, we're hearing that farming's bad. What do you say?" Well, obviously they're going to say that farming's fine. Obviously they're going to say that. They have a vested interest in doing so. So why is it that we have climate scientists and we have footage showing what happens to animals and government regulations written down showing, telling us what's happening to animals, and yet we go to farmers and say, "Well, is it humane?" And we expect, we go, "Oh, well, the farmer says it's humane."

And so that's maybe the third argument, with health, sort of environment around regenerative agriculture and such. And then still this narrative persists about humane treatment of animals. And in the UK we hear this so much.

We're constantly told in the UK we do it differently. In the UK we are exceptional. In the UK we have the best standards. And actually the truth is we do have some of the best standards in the world. But what does that really mean? I mean, is it the fact that we have better standards than America that's relevant? Or what those standards actually allow that's relevant? You know, being better than the absolute worst, you know, is not in and of itself...

a positive thing or in and of itself prove that what you're doing is objectively positive. And so we might say, well, look, we know what happens to animals in certain states in America, what happens to animals in China or in Russia or any of these other countries. We might say, well, on paper, their legislation allows for worse things to happen, but we still allow it

in this country for animals to be mutilated, for animals to be forced into gas chambers, for animals to be forcibly impregnated, for animals to have their babies taken away from them, for animals to be locked in cages. We still allow absolutely atrocious and deeply immoral things to happen to animals, but because on paper our legislation is a little bit better than certain other countries, we pat ourselves on the back and call ourselves exceptional, and then call ourselves a nation of animal lovers while pigs are screaming in gas chambers, and

baby male chicks have been thrown in macerators and ground up alive. And then we have the audacity to say that what we do is humane and high welfare and ethical and vegans are extreme and radical because we oppose gas chambers.

and knives being used to stab and slit? What sort of backwards world is this? This is again, it's another flipping of truth, of reality. We're told that the worst forms of farming are good, that the worst animal products for our health are good animal products for us to eat or healthy for us to eat.

We're told that plant-based diets are not nutritionally adequate, even though the science says that they are. And we're told that what we do to animals is ethical, even though the opposite is true. And it is so deeply disturbing that good, compassionate, kind people are perpetuating these systems of immorality because they are being fed lies on a daily basis by these huge industries with huge amounts of wealth, huge amounts of political backing across the political spectrum that

perpetuate these systems of violence. Violence towards animals, violence to our planet, and as a consequence, violence to us through the harm that it causes us as well. And those three things are the three big things, but it's surprising

Maybe not surprising, but it's just sad that those big arguments are still the ones that people are leading with in these different ways. And they sort of change over time and maybe adapt over time. But the underpinning rationale of these arguments persists no matter the evidence that's produced. It's just distorted and changed a little bit just to suit the narratives of these industries.

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I found it really interesting as well, you said in the book, kind of on that, that

the despite evidence and research that sometimes antidotes and whatnot can be the most powerful thing and things that just people hear rather than kind of critically thinking like beyond the surface than that and yeah hearing those top arguments is it's disappointing but also I think not surprising in that way from what we kind of see and I think it was a great summary of all the arguments

And before we, we're going to have some questions like a Q&A. So we're going to have one more question and then a Q&A. So start thinking about what questions you would like to ask Ed. One question I'd love to ask before we move to questions is, despite how many arguments kind of against veganism that we face and the misinformation like you spoke about, what are you excited about for the future of veganism? Are there things to be excited about?

Oh yeah, certainly. I know I can be a bit doom and gloom sometimes, can't I? And I really don't mean to be. I actually feel quite optimistic. Frustrated, but mostly optimistic. Wow. Yeah, maybe I shouldn't be too optimistic. I think there's so much for us to be excited about. And I think that one thing I spoke about earlier, quite critically, is how we're constantly degrading even our own species by not using our intellect properly.

meaningfully and really just using our capabilities, but that's not true. Or it's not entirely true. It's a little bit simplistic because we do do that as a species as well. There is incredible work being carried out by some of the brightest minds that exist on our planet, just pioneers in so many different spaces, whether it's the scientific space or maybe even food technology. And I think there is a lot to be excited around food technology.

Cell cultured meat is a great example. And actually the UK is just pets at home in Clapham maybe has cell cultured meat for cats or pet food. It's just been released for the first time. So there's actually cell cultured meat on the market here. It's not been regulatory or not going through a regulatory approval for

for humans yet, but that's the first piece of the puzzle, right? And there has been cell culture to me that has gone through these approval stages for human consumption. So it feels like it is going to start happening a little bit more and more and more. And we know how technology is. Technology can feel like this abstract thing and then all of a sudden it's just here. I mean, AI is a great example, right? You look about five, six, seven years ago and you think about chat GPT or something, but now it just exists and it just happened so quickly. All of a sudden everyone was talking about it and it was just there.

And I'm a little bit worried about AI, I'm not going to lie, but it does show how things can just appear, right? And can really start to take a hold. And I think cell cultured meat, we are at sort of this

It's very pivotal moments where it's there are still huge obstacles that need to be overcome whether they are regulatory obstacles, social obstacles, political obstacles, obstacles whatever they may be. But if we can break through those just enough to start getting these products commercially available on the market I think that will that'll be that'll be a big thing. But obviously it's not just food.

clothing. We need to change how we produce clothing in a number of different ways and obviously moving away from animal-based clothing is a really important thing. But the technology in regards to leather innovation using different forms of plant-based leather that will of course be far more sustainable and more sustainable than vegan leather in the past as well. Like apple? Apple, exactly. Mango? Mushroom. There's so much great work going on in the clothing and fashion space as well. So

I think there is a lot to feel positive about, but I also think that there's something a little bit deeper than that maybe. Obviously there's technology and how that can change consumption habits, but I do think there is sort of a growing understanding around the need to consider animals in a more meaningful way. And it's really easy to pinpoint all of the issues in terms of the headlines and the misinformation and disinformation, but we also can sort of reassure ourselves by saying, "There's a reason why that exists."

It's because these people feel the need for it to exist. There's a reason why the meat industry produces these campaigns of disinformation is because they feel that the need to attack back, that they need to try and get a foothold in this conversation a little bit more. And yes, they do that to some fairly strong effect when it comes to tarnishing the reputation around plant-based alternatives and certain plant milks and such.

But the fact that there's this perceived need for them to do this speaks to something which is that there is sort of maybe a change happening. And I also think that often what can happen with change is it can happen maybe a little bit out of the public view in the public sphere and change can happen in ways that maybe we're not anticipating or not necessarily aware of. And so

Even though I think there is maybe sort of these sensationalist kind of broad points that can kind of dominate how our social media algorithms look and such, I still think there's important things happening sort of on a more actual social level, like out on the streets level with people thinking more about these things, people becoming more aware. And that's not necessarily translating into these people becoming vegan.

But what I think it is translating to is a more open-mindedness to the idea of these issues being pertinent. And I think in many ways that's the most important thing to first achieve.

Because if people don't even recognize that veganism is something that needs to be engaged with at all Then they won't engage, you know We have to establish that before people engage with it meaningfully and so even though we might have a lot of people that disagree with us who have arguments against us who maybe consume this misinformation without necessarily being aware of it and Regurgitating it without necessarily thinking it through more critically I think the fact that there are these conversations happening speaks the fact that there is change happening

And change happens often in parallel with pushback because pushback is a consequence of change. So obviously we are in an incredibly unstable time in many ways with a lot of uncertainty, a lot of instability in many ways. But there is also the flip side to that, which is there is still this progress taking place. And I do feel optimistic and I do feel positive because change happens in many ways.

strange ways. And it's not just this linear, clear, black and white thing where everything's going forward in the right way or the way you want it to. It is a little bit murky and it is a little bit confusing and it can be a little bit distressing at times, but that doesn't mean there aren't these positive things happening in tandem with some of these other things. It's just maybe we're not as aware of them as we would be, as we are the sort of negative things. So I do try and remain positive and hopeful. And it is a

slight daily challenge. I'm sure we all feel that way. It's easy to sort of become pessimistic and you don't want to become so pessimistic you lose any sense of hope, but you also don't want to become so hopeful or optimistic you become complacent. It's all about that balance. You've got to remain optimistic so you don't feel completely dejected, but you also have to

sort of be mindful of the fact that there is an urgency, there is this need, urgent need for things to change and change in a way that is radical but also in many ways change that just aligns with the values that people already say that they have.

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And this is another positive thing that I take with me. When we talk about veganism,

When we talk about the principles of veganism, we're not necessarily talking about things that people don't already agree with. And that's powerful. We think we're arguing with people about veganism. No. We're trying to get people to understand that they probably already agree with veganism. And what I mean by that is the main argument for veganism, what veganism represents at its core, is the issue of challenging the dominant paradigm of animal exploitation.

We spoke earlier about compassion and kindness and these things are of course part of that but it's also fundamentally about justice It is about doing what is right and doing what is right is not about being kind necessarily it is about doing what is right because it is right for example You know if you if we leave the theater this evening and we see an elderly woman It is not kind if we don't go and mug her right it is just the absolute basic morally right thing to do not to do that and

And I think that we have to get people to start to view our relationship with animals in a similar way. It's not kind that we don't pay for pigs to be forced into gas chambers. That's not a kind thing. Because that suggests that we are going above and beyond our duty. That's kind. No, it is just a basic fundamental moral principle to not put sentient beings in situations of harm like that.

But I think that fundamentally people already have an understanding of that because if you ask people questions about animals,

they broadly already agree. If you say, are you against animal cruelty? Everyone is going to say yes, right? Everyone who you'd want to spend any time with, especially, right? So we already, in a way, have our foot in the door when it comes to convincing people of the main principle of veganism, the pillar that holds it up above all else, which is that doing things to animals that causes them harm and suffering and exploits them is fundamentally bad, and we should stop.

And if we can establish that within people that they already agree with the idea that animal cruelty is wrong, that animal suffering should be avoided, that all of these things related to those issues should be addressed, then the consequence of that is veganism. It's just people haven't necessarily realized that. And one thing I always like to do with people is to get them to clarify that they're against animal cruelty and then give them an example of animal cruelty that they will say that they're against, but is not as bad as the things that they pay for. For example, kicking a dog.

Are you against animal cruelty? Of course. Would you say that kicking a dog is animal cruelty? Well, yes. Okay. If we establish that kicking a dog is a form of animal cruelty and is therefore immoral, then surely cutting a tail off an animal, castrating them, putting them in a gas chamber, surely all of these things, they're also forms of animal cruelty because they are more severe than the kicking of a dog.

And if we establish that kicking a dog is immoral because it is a form of animal cruelty which ethically we object to, then how can it be that we don't ethically object to the things that we pay for as they are more severe things or severe examples of the main problem that we say that we're against? And that's why I say we're not arguing against people. We're just trying to convince people of something they probably on some level already agree with. They've just never had the space or the opportunity to reflect on that.

And we all want a better world. We might not necessarily all agree on what that looks like in sort of concrete terms, but I think whether we're vegan or not, we all agree that something is fundamentally wrong with our food system and we need to change it. And the thing about veganism which is so, so amazing is it doesn't just cover one issue, it covers so many things. And it is so rare that we have an opportunity in life to make one choice of that choice be so impactful in so many different regards.

When we choose to eat plants over animals and we choose to remove our participation from animal exploitation in its entirety, we're not just helping animals. We're not just doing the best thing for the planet from a dietary perspective. We're also safeguarding ourselves from infectious diseases and antibiotic resistance and from potentially causing the next pandemic if that pandemic is caused by a bird flu or swine flu virus.

We're looking after our own health and easing the burden that the NHS currently faces that we all pay for through our tax money. We're easing the burden on ourselves as taxpayers, we're easing the burden that we place on our own bodies, we're easing the burden that we place on society and our communities at large by removing our participation in these industries as well. And so one choice to just choose plants over animals

is so powerful in so many ways. I find that to be so inspiring every single day to know that this choice which may seem so small, just choosing chickpeas over chicken or black beans over beef or tofu over lamb, whatever it may be that we make, that choice which is so simple and what it actually involves is so powerful because of what it provides, what it nurtures.

And I think that sometimes with veganism, and I do this, I've done this throughout this evening so far, we speak about it in a negative sense in terms of everything's really bad, veganism is a moral obligation because of the things that are bad, and that is true. But there's the flip side to that, which is that veganism is exciting. It's so exciting. It's so rewarding. It's such a beautiful thing to be able to do something every single day that is so principled, but it's so simple, but so impactful.

And I think that we can also shift the narrative to frame veganism not as something that we do out of responsibility that is maybe a little bit inconvenient and maybe means that we have to remove our quote unquote favorite foods. No, no, no, scrap that.

Going veganism is one of the most amazing things that you can do and we get to do that every single day. Wow! How amazing is that? How exciting! And that fills me with so much optimism because it's a positive story as well. It's about addressing something that is so negative and so disappointing and so deeply immoral

But the flip side to that is embracing something that is the antithesis of all those things. It's about celebrating everything that we should feel proud about when it comes to our species and our abilities. It's about being progressive and forward thinking. It's about embracing change. It's about challenging transgressive thoughts and behaviors. It's about fundamentally embracing what makes our species unique.

which is the fact that we can change, we can think critically, we can evolve, we can adapt, we do have an intellect that allows us to do things that other species can do. The problem is that we use that intellect to tyrannize other species, to be dictators. But if we flip that and we use our intellect not to be dictators but to be stewards and to nurture and careful and to embrace everything that we can achieve, my goodness, that makes me feel optimistic and positive. Because what could be more positive

positive and optimistic than embracing the most wonderful things that our species possesses. And veganism at its core is about embracing those things. So yes, it's hard. Yes, it's demoralizing. Yes, it can feel like a strain and it can feel difficult and like we're treading and sludging through this thick, viscous mud that's trying to hold us back. But that is not the whole truth. The whole truth is that we are actually doing something that we should feel

proud of every single day. And the choices that we make as individuals, they create something bigger than just us because the choices that we make transcend beyond just ourselves. And the choices that we make as individuals become choices that we make as a community. And choices that we make as a community can fundamentally change the current systems that exist around us. And so, yes, I do feel positive, but sometimes I need a few minutes to talk myself into it. So, buy the book to hear more and...

It really is brilliant if you haven't read it yet. And I was into so many more of these topics that we've chatted about today. It's been so great speaking with you, Ed. We've come to the end of our time here on the stage, but there will be a book signing happening after. So do stick around if you'd like to go to that. And I will be, my quote I'm also leaving with that you said is also about the hope that we can hold and what there is to be excited about for the future of

and I've had a really great time speaking with you so thank you everyone thank you so much for the really great questions as well they were great thank you and I hope you all have a great rest of your evening Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared This episode was produced by myself Mia Serenti and it was edited by Bea Duncan

If you'd like to have a look at our full live events program, you can visit intelligencesquared.com forward slash attend to see what we have coming up. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.

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