John and Paul: A Beatles Love Story in Songs (Part Two)
38:47 Share

This episode is sponsored by Indeed. You never think about hiring until it's urgent, right? In the last few months, we've grown as an organisation, and with more traction and projects comes both excitement and the need to grow our team. Hiring can feel like a full-time job, but not with Indeed. In no time, you'll find qualified candidates who understand your vision.

Because when you're building something great, you don't just need help, you need the right help right now. So when it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites. Indeed's Sponsored Jobs helps you stand out and hire fast. With Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster.

And it makes a huge difference. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs.

When we recently used Indeed for a job vacancy, the response was incredible. With such a high level of potential candidates, it was so much easier to hire fast and hire well. Plus, with Indeed's sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long-term contracts, and you only pay four results. How fast is Indeed? In the minute I've been talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide.

There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com slash intelligence squared.

Just go to indeed.com slash intelligence squared and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com slash intelligence squared. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. When you get fast and reliable internet at Verizon, you can also save on the entertainment you love. Save on your favorite funny flicks, adrenaline rushes, rom-commers, and can't miss games.

Add your favorite entertainment to any Fios Home Internet plan, like Netflix and Max, or Disney+, Hulu, and ESPN+. With Verizon, stream more of what you love and save. Call 1-800-VERIZON and get Fios Home Internet today. 18-plus terms apply.

Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm Head of Programming, Conor Boyle. Today's episode is part two of our recent live event, which recently took place at London's Kiln Theatre with Ian Leslie and Tom Holland about the world's most influential creative relationship, Lennon and McCartney.

This conversation is coming to you in two parts, and if you're an Intelligence Squared member, you can get access to the full conversation ad-free. Head to intelligencesquared.com slash membership to find out more, or hit the IQ2 Extra button on Apple. Let's rejoin Ian Leslie now with more.

They both did words and they both did music. And that was constantly confusing to people and had to be explained a lot. And the sense that they're doing that is obviously the basis of their relationship. Yeah. Which is why you fix on one song in particular as being potentially quite destructive of that, which is Yesterday. Yes. And we talked about the effect it has on Paul, which is basically, he says, I'm brilliant. I can't, I really am a genius. I'm amazing.

But you also, you're brilliant in the book in talking about the effect on John. And later on in the book, you say that yesterday almost becomes a kind of synonym in John's mind for Paul. So just what is the impact of yesterday, which is, of course, written entirely by Paul and recorded entirely by Paul? What is the impact of it on John?

I think it triggers his insecurities about Paul leaving him, you know, essentially leaving the partnership or changing the partnership, you know, or even leaving the group and becoming a solo star. John was somebody who always worried and was deep about people leaving him, you know, since childhood because of the way his, what happened with his mother. Yeah.

And, you know, before she died, and his dad, you know, his parents were like, was in and out of his life. So he was always terrified of the people he loved leaving him one way or the other. And we've talked about this kind of cliff in the shadows model that they were constantly being trying, you know, pushed towards. And that was another kind of source of tension early on is, oh, are they going to end up making it kind of Paul and the Beatles or whatever? I don't want that to happen. And maybe vice versa as well.

And then Paul is always holding himself apart a little bit from the others. You know, he stays in London when the others kind of move out to the countryside. So there's always some sort of little underlying...

Tension there and it never crosses Paul's mind to do what John is worried. He might do I think because actually the oblivious to all this Yeah, yeah, he's not aware of it at all. Is he no I don't think he would have ever have done that No, no, I didn't seem completely right. No, he wanted to be with John in that sense and and yesterday Which Paul writes and they have a discussion about whether or not it should even be a Beatles song You know when they talk to the label and to George Martin, maybe it should be a Paul McCartney song released separately and

Doesn't sound like a rock and roll song. You know, guys, what should we do? And in the end, they decide to put it on the album. Maybe it will just be an album track. It gets picked up, goes out in America as a single, becomes this huge bestseller, gets covered by everyone. And John is sort of gobsmacked and amazed and slightly terrified by it. And when they perform it on stage, the others literally have to go off stage. Paul's at the front of the stage with a spotlight on him and a guitar. He's a solo star for that song. And...

For the rest, you know, for years afterwards, John is just... He's always referring to lyrics, isn't he? Always referring to... And he's mean about it in a kind of like, yeah, well, I'm not sure it's such a great song, Ashley. I'm not sure it really resolves. I'm really glad I didn't write that song. But also famously he says the only thing he did was yesterday. Yeah, in that nasty song, Harder You Sleep. But then also he's always holding it in his head as a standard of a kind of song, the song he should be writing. So when he first comes up with Imagine...

And he plays it on a piano for his friend. And his friend is like, wow, that is amazing. That's going to be a huge hit. And John says, is it as good as yesterday? Okay, so kind of anxieties there. The Paul is largely oblivious of and that John is dwelling on. And also, as you say, John and the other two Beatles have gone off to the kind of stockbroker belt in Surrey. And Paul has stayed in London getting up for all kinds of hip groupies.

groovy thing which again is a counterpoint to the idea that john is the the kind of edgy radical one yeah it's paul is much more into the kind of avant-garde scene than any of the other three but also of course what then happens in 1966 is that they stop touring which means that those sessions in hotel rooms stop and with paul in london and and um john out in surrey

They're physically separate. But you say that this distancing made the partnership more, not less, creatively combustible. So in what way...

The tensions and the conflict that come from this stage where they're physically distant, that puts a strain on the relationship. And they can't just naturally be together in a room and pick up guitars and start writing. They have to make an appointment to make songs together.

Because they're not on tour all the time. And so Paul calls up John and says, you know, can I come round tomorrow? And John's like, yeah, okay. And Paul will come round. John's still be in bed. Paul has to wait for him and be slightly annoyed that he's just not...

Paul would be there at 6 a.m. if he could, you know, and work for 12 hours. Whereas John's like, you know, I'll get up at midday and we'll see how it goes. So all that stuff starts to creep in. It feels a little bit more. John says, you know, it got fake around that time. He just meant it wasn't as fluid and natural as it was before. And they do start to argue more as well. You know, it's this general kind of personal strain of,

But when you think about the evolution of the music that happens at that time, you go, well, it was really good for them, whatever happened. And we talked about Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields, which happens the year after they stop what kind of starts, you know, later in 1966. Yeah.

what's happening is they're really developing their own musical personalities and pushing them out as far as possible. So Strawberry Fields is incredibly Lennon-esque. Penny Lane is incredibly McCartney-esque. So that separation actually leads them to develop these more distinctive personalities. But they also still have the ability to fuse those...

and those musical styles into, I mean, the incredible music that they are producing throughout 1967. And I guess the greatest example of that would be A Day in the Life, the last track on Sgt. Pepper. And I mean, what's your take on that? Because that has always seemed to me the song, the single song that most extraordinarily exemplifies that.

their different qualities and yet the absolute synthesis that they're capable of achieving with them beautifully put um oh i don't think i could put it any better than that i mean and and and it's it's kind of you know in the book i say it's like lennon sort of leaning into leninism and mccartney leaning into mccartneyism um they're becoming that they're doing this conscious i don't know consciously is the right word but like

They're putting their different personalities and their different musical personalities that are kind of consequence of that into the surface of the art, of the music. So A Day in the Life is...

It's Lennon at his most sort of like weird and distant and he's been taking a lot of drugs around this time. And he's trying, you know, he's conveying this kind of very strange disassociated kind of feeling about the world. And Paul, there's an alarm clock. Get up, get out of here, drag it home across my head. And it is like, you know, John...

being in bed at his mansion in Surrey and maybe coming down and lying on the sofa in a daze and Paul, you know, turning up at the door saying, Robert, let's get to work. You know, it's John being nowhere man and Paul, you know, I don't know,

and maybe we can good day sunshine. You know, those two personalities are in day in the life. They're really pushed out to the extremes and then smashed together in this incredibly like disruptive and weird way. And clearly kind of overwhelming for their peers. I mean, it kind of almost destroys the Rolling Stones in their attempt to kind of try and emulate it. And you quote a brilliant comment from Ray Davis of the Kinks saying,

Paul McCartney was one of the most competitive people I've ever met. Lennon wasn't. He just thought everyone else was shit. That's summing up. Yeah, that's probably the best play in the book, yeah. And, of course, what then happens in the wake of Sgt Pepper...

is that the Beatles discover the Maharishi and at almost the same time, Brian Epstein, their manager, who had been the kind of authority figure in the band, dies. And there's a sense over the course of 1967 that by the time

By default, almost, Paul is taking over that teacher role that perhaps, you know, he could have followed if he'd not become a Beatle. And it results in the Magical History Tour, which is a triumphant success. And then they all go off to India.

Paul McCartney offers an explanation as to why he found it hard to meditate. The minute you clear your mind, a thought comes in and says, what are we going to do about our next record? Which is, I mean, is saying something quite significant about Paul's inability really to relax. And that is counterpointed, I guess, to a sense in which John is slightly, I mean, he's slightly less frenetic.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it speaks to Paul's absolute absorption in kind of...

the possibilities of now and what we can do now and and the incredible beauty that you can find in in the everyday and and and in making music you don't need to just actually don't need to go to India obviously I would say I think he found it a nice holiday yeah but I think it um and and I think it was you know slightly frustrating for George and and and John that he was not a kind of guy who's like wow I'm going to find another plane of existence I really think for Paul like this is

And this is Heather. I think John's starting to find this a bit annoying. Yeah. Well, I think John also associates it with Paul not wanting to totally commune with him and sort of be almost absorbed into... So there's a sense of upset. Yeah, there's a sense that Paul is kind of pushing him away and John is there going, you know, I'm totally open to just us becoming, merging. I mean, this is around the time that, you know, they go to India. This is after John has suggested that they go to a Greek island and live in a commune together. Yeah.

This is around a time when John is really dependent on the others. There's a quote from Cynthia around 1967 where she says in front of Hunter Davis, she says to John, it seems like you need the others a lot more than they need you. Because she's frustrated that he's not spending time with her and going on holiday with her and Julia and John always wants to be with the others. He's suggesting that they go and live on an island. He has like three different ideas for having it all be together and shut out the rest of the world. John is like saying, I just, and particularly with Paul, I think he's saying that

without saying it, I want to be just kind of in this hippie commune where we just make music together. And Paul is just like, yeah, we've got to make a record. Do you think specifically with Paul? Well, I think that's the core of it, yeah, because that's the creative, profound creative connection that he has with Paul is on a different level to... Because... But he wants the others to be around, but Paul is kind of... I mean, they come back and John, of course, ends up with Yoko. And...

You quote a recording that Yoko makes a month after her relationship with John has begun. And she says, I'm sure that if Paul had been a woman or something, he would have been a great threat because there's something definitely very strong between John and Paul. And we've been talking about this as a love affair. I mean, to what extent is it a love affair in every sense of the word?

Is there an erotic child there? Yeah, I think there is at times. I actually think it's like not that unusual. I've heard other band members talk about this, particularly if you're performing live.

There's so much, like, hormones and energy and, like, thrills going on in a performance that some of it just spills over into, like, wow, this guy's really sexy. You know, it does become a more fluid... How pretty, Paulie.

Yeah. Later on as a kind of criticism. Right from when he first meets him, he's like struck. He said, you know, Paul's looked really good. And that, and Paul talks about John as having, you know, beautiful hands when he kind of, when they watch us in play guitar for the first time. So, so yeah, there's, there is a, like a physical and erotic kind of magnetism. And I think John worried about that. And he was conflicted about his sexuality in a way that,

Paul, I don't think, was. I mean, Paul seems much more oblivious, doesn't he? Yeah. And you quote a tremendously gallant comment that John makes to Yoko, which is kind of almost the converse. Do you know why I like you? It's because you look like a blokey drag. You're like a mate. And maybe that's the sweet spot for John. You know. This is not a guy who's completely free of issues about his sexuality, I think. And I think...

I don't know if he would have conscious, but I think there was a part of him which is like, maybe we could just have an all-consuming, you know, romantic, sexual, creative. He certainly wanted to bring together the personal and the creative. And of course, they both do that subsequently with their wives, which is very unusual. They both go off and make music with their wives. So, yes, it both has that sense that the two go together.

So do Yoko and Linda break up? Not necessarily the Beatles, but the partnership between John and Paul? No, I don't think they do. And I think that the way that the story is often told, well, it's either that terrible woman, Yoko Ono, broke up the Beatles...

Or there's a slightly gentler version of this, which is, oh, well, you know, John fell in love with Yoko and Paula fell in love with Linda. And that meant that they had to sort of effectively separate from each other. I see it more as the other way around, actually. I think they realized that, John and Paula realized at some level that they had to disentangle themselves from each other. That this relationship, you can't sustain that intensity for that long. And it was becoming...

and complicated, and they needed a way out, frankly. And they found, each of them, the woman nearest to their ideal of, you know, the next best thing. Slightly odd way of putting it. Not the next best thing, but I don't think it was a simple case of them just seeing Yoko and seeing, like, all right, now I'm in love with you. Because they were seeing other women at the time. Paul had, like, as usual, three or four women on the go. Yeah.

And John had known Yoko for quite a long time, over a year, before he decided, I'm in love with her, you know, or suddenly, like, goes all in. So I think just around this moment around 1968...

they had this go out and get her moment. And that's what Hey Jude is about. They're like, right, we've got to strike out now and we've got to move on. And Yoko, Linda. And, and of course they were right because these women became the loves of their lives, you know, especially Linda, but Yoko, although Yoko John have a bit of a patchy, she certainly is the love of his life until he dies. And nevertheless, as his,

made very clear in the you know the peter jackson uh reworking of the get back tapes they cannot keep their eyes off each other i mean they're always kind of gazing into each other's eyes and they are aware of this because what is it they are um singing two of us and they're recording you know which is clearly about them and it is kind of goes back to the

Is it John says, oh, you know, all these songs that we're singing, it's about us, isn't it? I mean, we're... It's like, don't look down, oh, darling, two of us. It's like we're lovers. It's like we're lovers. It's the most brilliant part of the Get Back film because John says that. It's like, oh, it's like we're lovers. And they both go... And they quickly move on. They're like, you know, it's enough of that. Very little self-conscious moment.

The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in America, and Google is helping Americans innovate in ways both big and small. The Department of Defense is working with Google to help secure America's digital defense systems, from establishing cloud-based zero-trust solutions to deploying the latest AI technology. This is a new era of American innovation. Find out more at g.co slash American innovation.

It's tourney time, and with FanDuel's Dog of the Day, you can get a daily profit boost during the College Conference Championships to bet on any underdog. So get ready to celebrate some upsets. No one saw that coming, except for me, baby. 21 plus and present in select states. Opt-in required. Minimum plus 100 odds required. Bonus issued is non-withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including token expiration and max wage or amount. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER.

At the Home Depot, Spring Black Friday is here, and we've got 14 days of deals to transform your space. So, what are you working on? How about a quick and stylish patio furniture update? And, what's outdoor dining without a shiny new grill? Find a wide selection of grills under $300, like the Next Grill 4 Burner for only $229 at the Home Depot. Then add a little ambiance with string lights. Shop 14 days of deals during Spring Black Friday, now through April 16th at the Home Depot.

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save, and spend wisely, and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight risk-free today at greenlight.com slash Spotify.

And so do you think because of that, that that

the extraordinary degree of animus that John shows Paul in the wake of the breakup and which even Yoko finds kind of startling. And Paul especially finds startling. I mean, he seems bewildered by it. I mean, obviously incredibly upset, but bewildered as well. It's two go together. I think part of the upset is just not understanding it and...

And I don't think it was easy to understand. It seems to be kind of out of proportion to Paul being a bit annoying maybe, right? You know, maybe Paul was a bit bossy or whatever.

But John talked about Paul wounding him. She talked about Paul upsetting him, talked to Yoko about Paul upsetting more than anyone else. That's what Yoko was expressing her confusion about to Philip Nolan much later on. It's like, I never really understood that because I couldn't really see what Paul had done. And so it was this over-determined moment, as they say in psychoanalysis, where I just think there was a lot

of John's previous life and previous insecurities, anxieties coming to bear on his relationship with Paul and it just reached some sort of like breaking point. But a song like How Do You Sleep, which we've already name checked. Yes. I mean, this kind of brutal character assassination, you know, the sound you make is music to my ears and you hang out with straights and the only thing you ever did was yesterday and those, you know,

you are dead, like all those freaks said. I mean, it is so brutal, isn't it? It's so in excess of anything that could have justified that kind of song that it presumably you would say that it is a kind of love song in its the pure force of its hatred. It's like an inverse love song, isn't it? Yeah. And I think that's right, because it certainly shows that they

He wasn't like bored of Paul. You know, most rock groups and most marriages, relationships, when they split up, it's most often because they've just got bored of each other or the relationship has run its course and so it just doesn't, it's not interesting to one or both partners.

And that was never the case with Lennon and McCartney. And How Do You Sleep just shows how much Lennon had invested in McCartney emotionally still. I don't think it shows someone who was like ready to move on. No. And also you're brilliant in the book in saying that whenever John feels...

that's when he becomes most venomous and that he's kind of, it's all about power dynamics with him over the course of the 70s. If Paul is doing well, then he feels, you know, he becomes very hostile. If he's doing well, then he's more magnanimous. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, he was, he was just, well, I've said it a few times, but he was a very insecure man. And he was, he was, he both thought that he was,

And I think, I suspect at times he thought, I'm completely empty and there's nothing here. I don't even exist. And he saw Paul as someone who intimidated him. Yeah. And was just endlessly successful.

Because in a sense, Paul is not understanding what John is going through. No, he's oblivious to it. Yeah, he is. Yeah, he's oblivious. It's really funny because, you know, Paul in later years has talked a lot about how John always wore this suit of armour, you know, and...

He was a really soft, tender, emotional man inside. But you rarely saw that because he always had to have this kind of show of bravado. Occasionally he'd like let the visor down and you'd kind of like connect with him. But it was hard. And I'm like, yeah, I kind of buy that, Paul. But I don't think you're the most open, like, you know, emotionally. No. Well, notoriously when John gets shot and...

the press go, you know, they're camped outside where Paul is in the recording studio. He comes out and famously he says, it's a drag, which is a phrase that kind of is hung around his neck. And then you, the very last song, the last chapter in your book is here today, which is kind of the whole song is about that, isn't it? It's about how there were moments where, you know, John opened up his heart and yeah. Yeah. And, and, but they, they were able to open up in music and,

But then in songs. But then I think even when John is opening up in songs, I think Paul's completely oblivious to it a lot of the time. And John is oblivious to Paul's insecurities and is often putting on a front himself. So there's a lot of misreading each other going on. And of course, through the 70s.

this was being done with albums and yet and people's obsession with them you know had not in any way diminished so it was kind of foghorn um approach um so i've just got two final questions to ask you the first is do you think you know decades have passed now since the 60s do you think that the and here we have a theater full to hear you talk about john and paul

Do you think that they have attained sufficient status that we can say that their music will endure, that they're more than just a kind of flash in the pan?

Well, because lots of people do say this. I mean, they say, you know, they will come and go, the generations pass, people will forget about them. There was a New Yorker article recently about universities who are very focused on classical literature in the States, and a scholar at one of those was asked about Shakespeare, and he said, I really think it's too soon to say it on Shakespeare. You know, compared to the Greeks, he's only just turned up. We have to... The jury's out. So it's a fair question to ask. But I suspect...

You know, I say in the book, actually, I sort of compare them to Shakespeare in that sense that I think that they are, you know, we read Marlowe and Johnson today and that they're still the brilliant playwrights. But I don't think anyone would disagree that Shakespeare was just on a different plane altogether. And I see the Beatles in that frame when it comes to the other 60s bands, incredible bands.

Most of them I would just not put on the same plane as The Beatles. I think if anything survives in 100 years of our culture, 200 years, 300 years, it will be The Beatles. I think music is more transmissible than plays and poetry, actually. So in a way, it stands a bigger chance. And also they just have this narrative aspect

and the iconography of the Beatles is incredible. It's part of the reason we're here today is that the story is as iconic, iconic and fascinating and endlessly kind of, um, yeah, as, as, as the music is. And the fact that they come in 1962, they, they, they changed the world in seven years and then they get out and there's no, yeah, a chapter after that, you know, there is a relationship in terms of the Beatles, you know, that,

They end in 1970, just as the decade ends. Yeah, everything's perfectly done. You suspect the hand of an invisible narrator, don't you? And one last question, which is that writing a book about people is a kind of marriage, isn't it? I mean, so you're kind of embroiled in this love affair as well. And I wonder, did you end writing the book loving them more or less, or did you...?

The tenor of your love stayed the same. Oh, more, more. And more, yeah, definitely more. Well, I couldn't have loved Paul more, actually. I loved John more. By the end of the book, I found John more empathetic. I kind of realised that he was so...

messed up and so uncertain. And also that I got more of a sense from reading more and more and sort of watching him and listening to him of his immense charm and, not charm in the social sense, but he could really make you feel like he really cared about you. And he did. Kind of his heart would come out towards you. And that was a powerful thing. Well, like I say, I finished the book and I love them even more than I did before. And I thought that was literally impossible. So it's the highest praise that I can give it.

Shall we, I'm sure you must all have questions and I've been hogging Ian very unfairly. So, can we have some lady there? Hi, thanks very much. This is one of the big talk and this is just the Guardian review which was spectacular. So, everybody should buy the book. But...

So my question is post-Beatles, and it's about Paul and the fact that he's spent a lot of time working with other people, and Elvis Costello on Spike and Plows in the Dirt, and then Eric Stewart on one of his albums. And I'm wondering if this is just his attempt to...

not recreate, but be part of a partnership again. I'm wondering what your take is on that. Yeah, I think that's right. And of course, when he formed Wings, you know, he wanted another group and he chose people that could write and play. He never quite, I mean, inevitably, he never found somebody who was on the level of John Lennon. It's pretty hard to do. It's hard with Denny Lade. I step into those shoes.

But yeah, it is interesting that he always wants to collaborate. And I saw him perform in 2022 in New Jersey. And if any of you have been to see his shows in recent years, it was fabulously fun and this endless parade of amazing songs. And it's all good. But I think the show went up another level when Bruce Springsteen came on.

and maybe a glass temporary as well. It just sort of lifted Paul. And I just think he likes being next to someone. It suddenly became apparent. Yeah, of course he does. He likes to be one of two guys at the front of the stage having fun together. It was really freeing my life. We went to see him just before Christmas and Ringo came on. So that was a truly great moment. Do you take two questions this time? Gentlemen there and

If they had a different producer, would you two be sitting here this evening? Okay, so that's a question about George Martin and in the back, the gentleman there. Thank you. You say that the relationship reached a sort of zenith of its intensity by 1968 before they both found the loss of their lives.

Why did they stop writing together more or less completely by the end of 1965? Oh, I don't think that's quite true. A lot of the songs on Sgt Pepper, for instance, are quite closely co-written. What they weren't doing was, because they weren't on tour...

spending all that time together hanging around in hotels. And so, and usually when they did that, they were like, let's write. So as I was saying, it's not as kind of fluid. It's the sheer physical activity

relationship between them changed and they were more separated and that meant they were kind of writing more apart but I don't think they ever stopped writing together actually some songs they did completely separately but on all the albums including the later albums there is collaboration going on and actually I was struck as I went through the Sgt Pepper

and sort of looked at the background to all of those songs, how many of those songs were actually really quite deeply co-created. So this is a slight corrective to that story in the book, I think. And George Martin, another, he's a slightly schoolmasterly figure.

I don't like your tie, all that. Yeah. Oh, but isn't it great that he takes the joke? He does. And he ends up looking unbelievably cool in the get back film, I think. Yeah. So what's... Are there profound differences in the attitude of John and Paul to George Martin or not? Oh, um...

Well, they have a different relationship with him into music, you know, certainly in the studio. So Paul would be like, well, you know, I think we should make the cello sound like this. And John would be like, why does it sound like an orange?

Tibetan monks. And actually, you know, I think George Barton really liked that and his engineers liked that because it made them participants in the creative process. They were like, okay, what does that mean, an orange? How could I interpret that? And so, you know, it was rather kind of... There's the sense in the Roman stale interview that

John Lennon does where he's unbelievably abusive about everyone, including Paul most notoriously, but he's also very rude about George Martin. Do you think he's bundling George Martin in with...

Paul and Matt. Well, he was mean about it. He was just like ripping through everyone. There was a... Paul could be occasionally a little bit like that as well. I think the Beatles always were a little bit wary of people taking credit for what they did. They were often a little bit mean, even about people they were very close to. So, you know. Yeah. But I didn't... They didn't like the Fifth Beatle stuff. You know, I've seen Paul being a little bit like...

Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by myself, Conor Boyle, and edited by Mark Roberts.