Yardsticks For Failure, with Ivo Graham (Part Two)
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Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet.

Today we have part two of our recent live event with the comedian and comedy writer Ivo Graham, live at the Kiln Theatre. He was joined in conversation by fellow comedian Alfie Brown to discuss the themes of Ivo's recent book, Yardsticks for Failure. Let's rejoin the conversation at the Kiln Theatre now. I wanted to know in a public space about the, like, I'm not sure how to phrase it in a way that is...

The serial killer chapter, you tell a really wonderful story about going to do a gig in... - Potter's Bar. - Potter's Bar in East Anglia. - In... - In Anglia. It's for a company called Anglia Comedy. For a company called Anglia Comedy, so I wasn't too far away, actually. - But it's in... Yes, hard. - But it's in Potter's Bar. - Yes. - Reference in the Arctic Monkeys song... - Fake Tales of San Francisco? - Congratulations. - Yes!

23rd of January next year Kentish Town Forum the Arctic Monkeys debut album full 20th anniversary club night played in full plus associated nostalgic noughties bangers well I didn't want you to bring up the Arctic Monkeys so I could promote that but I'm very pleased to do that just after we've spoken more about Russian translation uh

There's a rather wonderful story you tell of popping to the shops mid-set and there's a wonderful set piece that you do with a member of the audience where you line up an array of cereals for the entertainment and finding fun in the moment. Now, this is a thing that you speak about and I've been looking for the bit that I've highlighted that references it but I can't find it so bollocks. But there's a split and it's something you say about

feeling... Depressed is too strong a word because I don't think you use it in the book, but you feel a bit beaten down by taking your personal life on tour with you. So you wanted to do other things and you wanted to...

It feels like you've created a lot more comedy from that point, and Serial Killer perhaps was this story that you tell as a turning point in that, where you do more comedy that exists where you're creating moments rather than regaling them. The conscious choice that you made after that tour, feeling slightly...

not your happiest on tour? I was doing a sort of a stand-up tour but it was a bit it was a bit sad at points and I'd found that quite cathartic in Edinburgh but actually by the tour it was just it was just sort of

They didn't want to hear about it in St. Austell, in Cornwall in particular. It was just... Because Taskmaster came out in the spring 2023 when I was still touring that show. So obviously that's a very main Japes-based operation. And so quite a lot of the new Japes fans were coming to at times quite heavy set about co-parenting.

And so I quickly wanted to basically shelve that material and do literally anything else that happened in the moment to create a Taskmaster-esque chaos.

And that went really well, buying seven different cereals in Potter's Bar. And it went really badly trying to make a cheese and onion sandwich on stage live in Folkestone. And it went... Someone was sick because of the smell. Cheese and onion? Yeah. That's a very brittle olfactory system, I think. Yes. Yes, I wish... But the oven front of house doesn't see it that way, do they? But I think...

So then I thought, "Oh, this is great. I'm really enjoying living in the moment and chasing these sort of things." But then I tried to do an Edinburgh show that was sort of all that and I actually was quite disappointed by it as an experience. And also, I just don't think it was quite good enough. I think it was too chaotic. And also...

when you don't have enough routine in sort of life in general, to not have a routine for your show either. And to be like, my Edinburgh show that year in 2023 had 20 minutes of material and then sort of 40 minutes of stuff, like quite well planned out, but it was requiring me to chat and be funny and make stuff out of things. And there were just days when you're just not really feeling up to that. And it's like, well, there's only 20 minutes of material left.

So, and you go anyway. And then, so then that led to me sort of bouncing back to doing a show that was again a bit sadder, but calling it theatre. And that's just having, that has the same script for the entirety of it. And I've so enjoyed that because it's the same every day. Thanks very much, Alfie.

And you go and you speak about organised fun. That was the name of the show, which is a kind of bizarrely... For a show that you now realise you didn't end up enjoying all that much, an organised fun itself being a pejorative term for something that is not that fun. Yeah, haunted me. Quite haunting, but you didn't let it stop your embrace of the moment. And in many ways, the book is sort of a love letter to moments and the idea that moments are just...

kind of memories waiting to happen and memories are they need to be nurtured they need to be I think that's one of the most beautiful things about the way and we'll go on to speak I didn't want to immediately delve into the grief segment but one of the most wonderful things about the book all the way throughout is the embrace of

Or the way in which you write about friendship and the way in which you nurture friendship and celebrate it. And there's various things. You once found out that I'd lost a bar bar hat and you found that to be the saddest thing in the world. So you bought me a bar bar hat at great, well, I'm not sure, at great expense, but it took time out of your day. I wouldn't have done it. And has bar bar been cancelled? Well, I mean, look, if we're going to cancel things with colonial associations, we're going to be pretty short on money.

Everything. It's all... Everything has... Anyway, as long as you say it's bad. Anyway, my opinion on Baba doesn't matter right now. But also...

colonialism boo well i've lost my place now slightly with that uh colonialism segue thank you so much for referencing the uh the the uh the introduction to your book is called caveat town yes uh so-called because you can veer off in certain directions and spend too long in what our mutual friend who passed away would call caveat town yes uh so that's

I suppose a way of linking that back to that. Yes, he said, we were talking about him directing a show and he came to a work in progress and he was very nice about it. But he said, you spend the first half of the hour in caveat town. You've got to get to what you actually want to say. And that was very good advice that I'm yet to really heed. Well, that's what I was leading on to is that's how I felt about your book, this celebration of moments, this celebration of friendship. What was it that you wanted to communicate with it?

I wanted to pay tribute to quite a lot of friends who have propped me up in various different ways in the last few years in particular. And it's dedicated to one of them who's no longer with us. And the Caveat Town chapter is named after our friend Adam who's no longer with us. And I wasn't anywhere near as close to Adam as you were, but that really...

rocked our sort of friendship group in our industry a couple of years ago as well. And so I think both of those losses, they immediately, you know, you then start...

polishing memories a lot more of people, chasing down any artefacts and photos. I think having a bit more justification. Basically, every room in my house and every room in my bedroom in my parents' house is covered in piles. And my mother is very keen that I tidy them. And I'm not very good at tidying my room because what I'll do is I'll go to the first pile and I'll pick up something like a ticket to a show in 2007

And I'll just look at that and think about it for a couple of hours. And I'll text a photo of it to the person I went to that show with. And I'll think of a more imaginative way in which that ticket might be filed. And then that's probably the end of the tidying window. Yes, I think I've received one of those messages in the past, actually. They're quite lovely to receive. Well, I think that's the problem is I think they do have worth when you do any kind of

when you're writing books or shows and there's use for nostalgic things that's technically justifies it and then when you've uh lost someone and they've left a lot of memories or photos or traditions you're really grateful for them then so i think maybe i've uh i've definitely come to understand the comfort of that but also at the same time i've been as you've sort of noted like

I've been defining myself by that professionally a lot more anyway. And often with something that happens, often at a gig, I'm not proud enough of my new material because I didn't work on it enough. It's not tight enough. But I know that if something happens in the middle of the gig and I do something that no one else would have done, then that will probably, it didn't really matter if the material that was interrupted was sort of seven out of ten or nine out of ten then because it's not the story anymore. And I think I'm compensating a lot of the time for that.

Things I'm not doing enough or friends that I'm not in touch with enough. And like a lot of people, you know, in there, as they get older, with less time in general with kids, I'm trying to make big memories with my daughter. And I'm trying to make the most of the times I have with people because it's almost always not enough time. But it's one of the most beautiful and...

The way in which you've written it, and it's so joyful, and it's such a celebration, and it's such a reminder that grief is something that you don't need to avoid. You can participate in it. And there might be more solace in participating in grief than perhaps avoiding it entirely. And it's completely...

You talk about a marathon of watching Philip Seymour Hoffman films and you revisit that at the end of the book in a very moving way. Did you find the book and writing it a... It's hard to describe anything in this context as a help, but did it bring you any peace or did you get anything from it? I suppose there's a more broad way that I can say it. I think I've...

I've lost sight of that, but I don't... The things that I've been most proud of in the last couple of years have been the things that we have done in memory of our friend and others have done some pretty amazing things which I have either sort of participated in or not participated at all. I'm absolutely not leading the charge, but I am one of the people in the charge and I am the one...

writing it all down for my own personal gain. And I'm aware that that's very delicate. But I am really glad that I'm writing it down because it's dedicated to someone who is a journalist and a historian and always wrote things down. And his memory would just amaze you and delight you. His memory of you and your life. And so I know the value of that. It's so important to me. And so...

It sounds very cynical to say I decided that that was what the book was going to be about because it was the best way of making sure that I got this stuff down as good as possible. But there was not a more important topic in my life that got shelved so that I could emote for 110,000 words reduced to 90,000. That's what I've been thinking about a lot in the last two years. But I think that talking about it a fair bit

in shows and in podcasts and in a book, one of the things I'm worried about in general is there's not much of my life anymore that I'm not broadcasting in some way. And I think that's very much the nature of the modern, you know, sort of social media and podcast industrial complexes. It sort of demands and excavates everything unless you draw very hard lines. And I think many people very close to me would say,

are you sure that you are doing a bit of processing in private? And the answer would be, not enough. Right, cool. Thank you. Can I get another comedy prop? Do you want to get a comedy prop now? Yeah, I think this might be a good time for it. Okay. Yeah, go on then. I'll filibuster while you get it. No, it's very near to hand, but actually I don't think that's... I think that was a poor decision by me. No, no, no, no, no, no. Just commit to the bit, okay? Okay.

So this book is also on sale on Amazon, and it's called Ivo Graham, Failure, Fear, and Fame, How Ivo Graham Turned Setbacks into Success by Jason Edward. Jason Edward, I'm almost certain, doesn't exist. I've clicked through and he's not there. This book is AI. Okay. It's an AI book. I think it's the only possible explanation for what it is. It's a children's book.

But it's quite scary. So I don't know if anyone's tried to go on Amazon, and I'm not trying to get the book on Amazon, but I mean, you will see that there. Or book read, or whatever it's called, the one that isn't him. Yes. Yeah, yeah, anywhere other than Amazon, of course. There's a couple of solid disses to Amazon in my book, but then also the book is available to buy there, so it is hypocritical AF. LAUGHTER

Would you... But if you went on Amazon, you would see this as an option, and I guess that must be part of the strategy to trip people up. I mean, I've been tripped up. I've bought it. I've spent £14 on an AI book about myself with a vaguely similar title to my own book, just so that I had it ready to whip out in case I got too sad at the kiln. Yes, well, you were right on it, weren't you?

Would you like an excerpt? I've literally not even opened it, so yeah, I'm excited. I won't start right at the beginning. Let's pick out a page from the middle. Although I do like the opening line. In the early morning of September 5th, 1990, under the vibrant lights of Tokyo's bustling skyline. Seriously? Yeah. That's the opening line? Yeah. Where and when were you born? I was born in Tokyo. Right then. Yeah, I know. It took me ages to do this.

The brightness of the stage lights felt familiar. The quiet anticipation of the audience, the rush of adrenaline, the familiar rhythm of a well-timed joke, it all came naturally to him now. But this time, as Ivo Graham, still full name, even on page 50, just in case you're not familiar with the character, there may be many Ivos in this tomb.

"Seventy the Spotlight, it wasn't in a comedy club, a pub basement or even an Edinburgh Fringe stage. This time it was for television." Well, I'm on tenter... Well, I didn't realise how easy writing books about you was. I have much less respect for this now. Anyone can rattle it off. Of course, there's other chapters involved here.

Where you talk about your love for music, whether it be Talking Heads, who are doing Stop Making Sense. It's happening again at Prince Charles Cinema on May the 31st. Ooh. I would watch it over and over again. I've booked us three tickets. You actually? Yeah, I did that this afternoon. Oh, that's pretty good.

Isn't that nice? Thank you so much. What time in the evening is it? 6.30. You can't make that. Carousels at 7. It's an absolutely lovely gesture and lucky third person who replaces me. Yes, okay, great. I can't recommend it enough.

Going to what? Oh, shit. What? Well, we've run out of time. Oh. Probably. That's not how Intelligence Squared talks. I'm quite a fan. I like it when, I always like it when a Q&A ends with the interview inviting someone to something and then saying, it's a lovely invite, but I can't make it. All right, then. Another two great minds have met. See you later.

I mean, obviously, if anyone from the floor wants to use their queue... I think we're going to do a brief Q&A now, yes. To sort of pitch for the third talk. Stop making sense of the ticket. Does anybody have any questions for Ivo... Sorry, let me just check the name again. Ivo Graham. There we go. Oh, dear. A solid...

Solid nod. Oh, yes, hello. Do we have a microphone for this lady in the second row? She's right in the middle. Or you could just shout it. Would you like to shout it? No. I'm going to actually say no to that one. Because, I mean, obviously...

I appreciated it, but it's my dad's favourite Radio 4 panel show, so it really was the bar for, like, you're a comedian now, and inviting my parents to come and watch it was a very big moment. It was a couple of years ago, and I didn't do quite as well on it as might have been hoped, given how much we'd practised in the car for all those years. LAUGHTER

And though my parents were proud, there was an undeniable and legitimate note of disappointment as we returned home afterwards.

and I think I perhaps not coincidentally got topics like at least at first like Glastonbury which I have certainly written a lot of words in it there in that book and in the book I've tried very hard to make the words not repeat unless it's for comic effect but like I got like five seconds into the Glastonbury answer and then got it wrong I was like I can't talk about this what can I talk about and my father felt the same

But Sue was so nice. Sue is, that was a great bit, how nice Sue was, and I hope to have another go. Sue Perkins hosts Just A Minute now. Sue Perkins hosts Just A Minute. Is it not, who was it, was it before, was it Ned Sherin or something? It was Nicholas Parsons. Nicholas Parsons, that's the chap. Anyway, any more questions, you sir? Another person right in the centre of the room. Yeah.

Will Swindon get promoted next season? This is a man called Mike. I can't remember his surname, but I can remember that his email username is FatboyMike. And I'm not explaining that in any sort of attention-drawing or shaming way. But it is funny to see it in the inbox. Mike supports Aldershot Town, who are two divisions currently below Swindon. But you support Aldershot Town as well. It's going to be absolutely sizzling in the kiln bar after this. LAUGHTER

Wow. In this trophy-winning year, miracles can happen. Any more off-the-shot ultras in the room? Were you at Wembley? Were you at Wembley? Oh, we're cooking with gas. So...

So Aldershot are on the up and Swindon are on the down, and this was never more felt in October 2023 when Aldershot were 7-0 up away at Swindon in the FA Cup. Swindon did claw four back to restore some dignity, but we did lose 7-4 in the FA Cup to a lower league team, and it was one of the big stories on the BBC Sport that day, and I watched the news come in while at a day rave in Manchester, and it was a very difficult scoreline not to think that I'd hallucinated. LAUGHTER

But I talked about it on stage to people who weren't hugely interested in the result of Aldershot v. Swinton. But fat boy Mike sent me an email saying that it had really validated his status as an Aldershot fan in his daughter's eyes because she'd never listened... Am I paraphrasing here? She'd never paid Aldershot much respect. But then when I was doffing my cap to the shots, it was like, OK, I'll listen to Dad. And...

But no, I think Swindon, we're going to be, we'll be waiting. We're waiting for you in League Two and we may even come down in your direction. But it's, I think, I think we're going to finish eighth next season or ninth. Oh, okay. Very good. Well done for putting a number to it. Sorry, I saw you first say hello. What was the hardest part of the 20,000 words that got cut? What was the hardest part of the 20,000 words that got cut to say goodbye to? I'm just going to repeat them for posterity. Sorry. Um,

I fought very hard to keep the names of my dad's favourite crisps in a footnote. Would you like to offer them now as some sort of tonic? Yes. Piper's Longhorn Beef. And for vegetarians... I'm pretty sure that features in the book. Yeah, I've cheated a bit there. That was so close to getting cut. But then I went back and put it back in when the editor who had cut it was off that day. LAUGHTER

Yes, they're your post-marathon snack. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, they are. Because Keeley brings it... Yeah, okay, okay. Very much wanted to get your plug in for Piper's Longhorn. Yeah, I suppose so. Well, very good. We've got so many already, but we do get through them. Um...

That's not one that got cut. I'll keep thinking about that because it was a big process. Sorry for exposing you as the sole reader of the book in the room. I didn't mean to do that. No, I was planning to admit to it, but that obviously can't be proven now. There was somebody over there who had a question. Yes. Thank you. I'm dreading this. It feels like it's going to be, what's your biggest failure? Sorry? What was the question?

Oh, okay, that's a nice little twist. Sub-three marathon or daughter? Next question, please. Sub-three marathon or daughter we had for biggest success. How marvellous. Thanks for that lovely question. I thought it would be nice to show concision at one point and get an efficient laugh. But it is probably also true.

Any other questions? Oh, and one television quiz show appearance, which is in the book. Yes, that's of course... Yes, it leads to that, but let's not...

Spoil it. Thank you. Also, I mentioned this about an hour ago, but I'm not massively proud of my 2009 Anne Frank heist routine. I think it suggested I was going to be more of a shock comic than I actually turned out to be. I think if anybody goes to the Chortle student page of any of their favourite comics, they'll see jokes that perhaps don't represent...

the comedian in their current state. And also, it was a very... You were the victim of the joke, not Anne Frank. Yes. LAUGHTER

But I think a couple of the YouTube commenters did see her as sort of collateral, I suppose. I don't think you were necessarily in those days an alpha swinging your dick, making Anne Frank the butt of all sorts of cruel mockery. I was a virgin chewing gum on stage in a We Are Scientists T-shirt. Yes, yes, you were. And you hadn't quite mastered eye contact at that point, but you've...

Not looked at the audience loads tonight, to be fair. Uh,

Yes, everyone enters chortle student community or certainly did when they started and they film everyone and the routines are usually if not problematic then just bad and quite a lot of comics have I think is that right tried to get them taken down but only Ian Sterling was successful because he was a children's TV presenter so BBC were able to sort of leverage a bit more. Yeah, but also he was saying some horrid shit. LAUGHTER

Anyway, that's not, I've never seen it. I never watch any of them. Do we have any other questions in the room that anybody would like to share with the group? Oh, hello. You've got a microphone just there, go on. You both spent quite a lot of time at Edinburgh. Is there a specific period of your career that you think is the best time at Edinburgh? Do you have a favourite memory? That's a nice question, isn't it?

Do you want to go first? Is your book launch? We have... So we did shows together in 2009 and 2010, and we lived together in 2018, 19, 22, 23 and 24. And so some of my earliest memories are...

with you and sort of kind of having like going for drinks, but sort of like for some of the earliest like literal drinks of my life. But then obviously while still, you know, not doing a bad effort on that front at times, there've also been a lot more child adjacent days in Edinburgh. Alfie has four children. So we have a combined five children.

And two of them are older than my daughter, which she absolutely loves, because she can sort of play grown-ups with them. And two of them are younger than my daughter, which she absolutely loves, because she can pretend to parent them. And so, like, getting to hang out with you and Jessie's children is like, she's just, it's an absolute candy shop of, like, if I just get a bit bored of these inarticulate babies, then I can just pivot to these young adults and vice versa.

So those are some recent ones. I'd like to hone in on something a bit more, but I'm going to ask you now if you've got anything specific. I always think, like in any relationship, whether it be sort of romantic, and I mean, I also think platonic friendship is a kind of deeply romantic thing, and becoming friends with somebody is an incredibly romantic experience, and

over the course of that month together in Edinburgh, having you, and back when you were 18 and I was 22, I was so much older than you, and now we're broadly the same age, and that's just how time sort of evens itself out.

And that was like falling in love. And one of the traits that we had that Edinburgh, one of the best parts of every evening, was going home at night time or in the, as the small hours of the morning became large, walking home in Edinburgh and talking and being able to

share our thoughts about comedy and the evening and get to know each other. And there's something so intimate about reflecting on the evening together and getting to know you over that time. And one special memory is us doing a gig that was just before the Lunchtime Club, so it must have been pre-1230. And we did another gig across the road and we were both on. And I was quite an adolescent comedian, well into my late 20s.

and had this screeching bit against contemporary art in which I said the art wasn't art, it was just bollocks, just adolescent shit. And I was quite angry on stage. And you were so bored of your material by the end of the month, you went, oh, can I try that when we go across the way? Can I try a bit of anger? And I went, yeah, sure, you can do what you want. Can I try a bit of anger? LAUGHTER

So you did your entire set about, I can't remember the routine, but your mum asks you a question in the car and then slams the locks of the door. What did she ask you about? Not two girls, one cup. Not two girls, one cup. My mum once said to me, what's two girls and a cup? I went, not two girls and a cup.

It's one cut. Anyway. Yes, it was a bit about having to explain some top-shelf internet banter to my mother in a locked car. Yes. But you screeched it downstairs at the Tron. And it was so brilliant. And I was... Ah, and my best memory is watching you at So You Think You're Funny. I felt so proud of you and also so proud of me for not being jealous. And it was a moment...

And I really did feel a lot of pride because it meant I really loved this guy because I was so... And it was like a brilliant goal had been scored, one that bounces off the crossbar and then goes in. As soon as they read Andrew... Ivo Graham. And that he'd beaten...

Kev Shevlin and Nasos Manolo in the crowd tonight to the prize of So You Think You're Funny Champion 2009. I was just overjoyed for you. That was, yeah, that was one of my best moments. That was one of my best moments. Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Connor Boyle and it was edited by Mark Roberts.

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