How to be courageous, with Jenny Wood
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Offer ends March 31st. See if your company qualifies for this special offer at oracle.com slash strategic. That's oracle.com slash strategic. My dad works in B2B marketing, but I never really knew what that meant. Then one day my dad came by my school for career day and told everyone in my class he was a big ROAS man. Then he just kept saying things like, the bigger the ROAS the better, over and over. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

I think it means calculating a return on ad spend. One thing's for sure. I'll be known as the ROAS man's kid for the rest of my days. Why couldn't you just be a fireman or a lawyer? Why?

You ruined my life, Dad. Not everyone gets B2B, but LinkedIn has the people who do. And with ads on LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people based on job title, industry, likelihood to buy, and more. Start converting your B2B audience into high-quality leads today. We'll even give you $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com slash customer to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com slash customer. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be.

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Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's episode is going to be a longer one, part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us.

Today, I am delighted to welcome Jenny Wood to the show. Jenny is a career expert and the author of the brand new book, Wild Courage. So Jenny, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me, Laura. Excited to have you here. So yeah, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

Well, I'm in Boulder, Colorado. I've got two kids who are seven and nine. I spent 18 years at Google growing from entry level to executive. And I recently left to work on this book full time. It came out not too long ago. It hit the New York Times bestseller list, which is so exciting. So awesome. And I have a goal to spread insane amounts of wild courage into the world so that everybody can make their days go from great to awesome. Yay. Well, we're all about that there. So...

Well, one of the ways that you kind of burst onto the scene a few years ago is a famous story of how you met your husband. Yeah. That this went a bit viral. Maybe you can tell our listeners about that. Yeah. Well, it's 2011, and I'm riding the New York City subway home from work when about 20 feet away from me stands this really good-looking guy. Gorgeous blue eyes, thick brown wavy hair. And even though I want to go up and talk to him, something holds me back.

What if he's a convicted felon? What if he's married? What if 100 people stare at me on this packed train? Well, I later came to realize that underneath those questions were fears that hold so many people back because they're the same fears that held me back so much in life. Fear of uncertainty, fear of failure, and most importantly, fear of judgment of others.

So I sit there, I do nothing as the train passes stop after stop after stop and life passes me by. But I'm still so taken by him. So I make a deal with the universe. I say, if he gets off at my stop, then I'll try to strike up a conversation with him. And if not, then c'est la vie. Well, he gets off at the next stop, which was not my stop. And I say, I like slumped down in my chair, so disappointed. And then all of a sudden this wave of water

wild courage like washes over me and practically pushes me out of my subway seat and off the train. So I chase after him, tap him on the shoulder. I say, excuse me, I'm sorry to bother you. You're wearing gloves. So I can't tell if you're wearing a wedding ring. But in the event that you're not married, you were on my subway and I thought you were cute. Any chance I could give you my business card?

Then I wait for what feels like forever thinking this was a terrible idea. But he takes the card, calls the next day, asks me on a date a week later. And then three years later, we get married. We've now been married 11 years happily. So wild courage, you know, changed my life in that moment. And then I started using it as a habit professionally throughout my days to be more productive, etc. Yeah, well, it is exciting. I mean, sometimes the things that we get inspired to do just have

I mean, repercussions like you couldn't even imagine. But what's interesting about this story, of course, you were telling this story from the place where it worked. Oh.

Yeah, totally. And you talk a little bit in your book about this, right? We see, I think the phrase was, we see everything differently in the context of success. Sure. So let's talk about that because I think it's very important for people to realize that and how they're hearing stories. Yeah. It's so interesting you bring that up. It's like survivorship bias, right? So it's like, well, it all worked out. Of course, you can go out and tell people to have wild courage. But the reality is like our failures fuel that success, right? You know, if you want to double your successes, quadruple your failures. And

Wild courage covers nine traits that create the bars of an invisible cage that keep you small. And I'm encouraging people to reclaim these nine traits. Those nine traits are weird, selfish, shameless, obsessed, nosy, manipulative, brutal, reckless, and bossy. And I think the move on that subway that day was reckless, right? Reckless...

redefined in my new words is the courage to take intelligent risk, to err on the side of action, better to learn from your mistakes than waste time predicting the consequences of every decision. Think fast and fearless. And if you're on the fence, do it. But you bring up the good point of like, okay, it worked out for you that day, but what about when it doesn't?

The reason I advocate for it anyway is because those risks, those little mini risks, those moments of recklessness, as I call it, help build the building blocks of something great in the future because it's building that muscle to ask the uncomfortable question, to ask your boss for a raise, to ask the client for an upsell, to ask a friend in a new city to go out to coffee. I've had so many failures, especially since leaving Google and being an entrepreneur, where

I had, you know, I wanted all these fellow authors and influencers to support the book. And a lot of them said yes, but I got so many ghosting response or so many non-responses, right? And I got one from a really, really well-known author that everybody would know this person's name. That was not just a, no, I'm not going to support it with my audience, but a blatant

this is the end of our friendship and my mentorship with you, Jenny, because I don't think... I'm offended that you asked, basically. And it was really hard to stomach that rejection, that flat out, not just rejection, I'm not going to support the book with my audience, but just like, and this is the end of our relationship. And so...

That's a perfect example of, yeah, sometimes you take that risk. You jump, you run off the subway, you ask for the raise, you ask for the client partnership and you get told a flat out no, but you still keep going because there were hundreds of people who said yes with massive audience, you know, millions of people in their audience. And so if I hadn't

had the boldness, the wild courage to ask that person who happened to say no, it means I wouldn't have had the same courage to ask the other people who did help me. And it's that muscle that you just have to build over and over and over again, even though sometimes you are going to fail, you are going to feel rejected, you are going to feel disappointed, you are going to feel depressed, which I did feel all of those things when that happened. But it's the marker of a leader when you can do that and keep going. Yeah, that you realize a lot of times the response eventually to this, you know, discouragement, rejection, all that is like, oh, well, you know,

I mean, if the guy on the subway had been like, yeah, dude, not doing it, you'd be like, okay, next guy, you know, move on. That's the thing is like of those three fears that I help people push through with wild courage, fear of uncertainty, fear of failure, fear of judgment of others. The one that happens to plague me the most is fear of uncertainty.

So I would have rather run off the subway and asked that guy and had him tell me a flat out no than live in uncertainty the rest of my life thinking what could have been. In fact, it's kind of a win-win. If he said, no, I'm married, he gets to go home to his wife and kids and be like, I still got it, honey. And I have my answer. It's like, okay, no, no, nothing, nothing ventured, nothing lost. So you bring up a really good point, Laura.

Yeah, yeah. No, I've always thought that with like, I mean, public speaking, I do a reasonable amount of it. And at the beginning, it's like, it's a little bit, you know, nerve wracking to get up in front of people. And then you do enough of it and you realize some go great. Some are fine.

Some go wrong, often for things that have nothing to do with you. I mean, they just announced like huge cost cutting right before you got up on stage. You know, it's a little different than if like the boss is giving out iPads right before you go on stage. Like the energy is a little different. It has nothing to do with you. And but you learn, oh, well, you know, that one bombed. Oh, well, you know. And think about how much you learn. Like my entire business is keynote speaking now, and I completely understand what you're saying. And think about

how much you learn from the ones that don't go well. Like I made a huge mistake at a keynote a couple of weeks ago and I asked for a confidence monitor so I could see what slide was coming next. And then they like reluctantly put it there. But then I later found out like that was a $500 cost to us, Jenny. So we wish we had known about that ahead of time. And I was like, oh,

Oh my gosh. But like, what an amazing learning. Like, I wouldn't have even thought that this would have been an incremental cost for them. And I felt really foolish and, you know, it's disappointed. And maybe I was taking nosy too far. Nosy is the courage to get insatiably curious, to, you know, dig deeper. It's about how curiosity drowns out fear and pulls you toward what most is exciting to you. So use it as a compass. And it's all about like, yeah, don't be scared to ask a question. I asked a question. Hey,

hey, could you add a confidence monitor? But then sometimes without even realizing it, you can take these nine traits too far. And I call those trait traps. And in that case, I didn't think I was taking it too far, but I later learned I had taken it too far. And now I know to be more thoughtful about the investment that the client is making, et cetera. So sometimes we get caught in these trait traps without even knowing it. Absolutely. All right, well, we're gonna take a quick ad break and then I will be back with more from Jenny Wood. Thank you.

Hey, Before Breakfast listeners. We know you're all about making the most of your time. So here's a question. What if your lunch break could actually help you level up? Check out Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman. Every Tuesday, Ken sits down with top experts to unpack the real questions that help you thrive at work, at home, and in your own head. We're talking questions like, what are the 10 best foods for your memory?

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really knew what that meant. Then one day my dad came by my school for career day and told everyone in my class he was a big ROAS man. Then he just kept saying things like, "The bigger the ROAS, the better," over and over. My friends still laugh at me to this day. I think it means calculating a return on ad spend. One thing's for sure, I'll be known as the ROAS man's kid for the rest of my days. Why couldn't you just be a fireman or a lawyer?

Why? You ruined my life, Dad. Not everyone gets B2B, but LinkedIn has the people who do. And with ads on LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people based on job title, industry, likelihood to buy, and more. Start converting your B2B audience into high-quality leads today. We'll even give you $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com slash customer to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com slash customer. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be.

Well, I am back with Jenny Wood, who is the author of the new book, Wild Courage, has spent her career at Google and now off on her own doing lots of speaking and writing and teaching and things like that. So, Jenny, you have a phrase for when people are going after goals that you want them to remember, which is rock, chalk, talk and walk. I think I said that correctly without tripping over it. Yeah.

So maybe you can talk a little bit about what that means. Yeah, absolutely. So Rock Chalk Talk Walk is goal setting in a nutshell. It's about how do you have the most productive hour in any day, right? Or how do you have the most productive goals for a six month period? So Rock is what's the big thing you want to accomplish? I set out to sell a lot of books the week this book came out. So I said my big goal is to sell 10,000 US hardcover copies of Wild Courage by Pubweek.

That was my rock. And it was specific. It had a number in there, right? And it had a date. So it wasn't wishy-washy whether I achieved it or not. Chalk is, I wrote it down. So right here, listeners can't see this, but I'm showing up a little sticky to Laura here. But here we go. It's just like, it's on my monitor. And it says that what I just stated, it written down so I could see it every day. That's chalk. Write it down.

talk is talk about it out loud, not in a manifest-y kind of way, but in a very practical, say it to people so they can help you kind of way. A lot of people say, well, how do I tastefully self-promote at work, right? Like, I don't want to share with my boss that I increased, you know, customer satisfaction year over year by this percent. I'm like, no, they want

to hear that. Like they want to hear the awesome things you're doing because they can help you. So by talking about my goal out loud, people said, oh, let me introduce you to this other person. Or, you know, have you thought about this strategy? Have you thought about bulk sales for companies? So that's talk. And then walk is what's it's walk the walk. What's the one thing you can do today in this hour of your time to be the most productive toward that goal? So

Just to give another example, let's say your goal is to lose 10 pounds. So maybe the walk is you're going to replace the big dishes in your kitchen with smaller dishes. And that's the one small step you can take to move you toward that big rock. So that's rock, chalk, talk, and walk. Excellent. Excellent.

And you also talk a lot about betting on yourself, right? That part of having this wild courage is the idea that, you know, we need to bet on ourselves. I don't know if other people are going to do it or not, but, you know, we at least need to put that level of support for ourselves. So somebody's listening to this in the car on the way to work. It's Tuesday. How practically can they bet on themselves today? Right.

Yeah, well, I think when you hear... Actually, it's Wednesday. I forgot. This one will be on Wednesday. Okay, it is Wednesday. Yes. Whether it is Tuesday or Wednesday or Saturday, you know, we think we hear betting on ourself and we think quit your job to be an entrepreneur. But you can bet on yourself directly within your own team, within your own organization, within your own company. What might that look like?

This comes out of the shameless trait. Shameless is the courage to stand behind your efforts and abilities. It's about finding your swagger. It goes back to kind of how do you thoughtfully self-promote to your manager so that you can get that raise, get that promotion and bet on yourself within your organization.

So try sending what I call a shameless Monday email. It should take no more than 15 minutes. It's four bullets, two things you're proud of from last week and two things you're excited about this week. Four bullets, really short and sweet. It's not a productivity report. It's simply sharing highlights. Even better if you use numbers like I referenced before, but it's just sharing what's been going on in your world. As a Google exec, Laura, I think I only saw this about 10% of the time, but the people who did this

always stood out as rockstar performers. I always knew what they were working on. It was different than them bringing it to me in our regular weekly one-on-one because this is something that I, as their boss, could CC my boss on. And then maybe that gets spread to other people. And it just shows that they're proactive. It shows that they're proud of what they've accomplished. It gives me an opportunity to give feedback if I need to. And it's a very effective tool to betting on yourself within your job, within your team, so that your boss falls in love with you.

Absolutely. And you actually suggest that people use that word proud. Like you said, list two things you're proud of, but you actually want people to say, I'm proud of this. I mean, what's going on with that? Exactly. Well, it's just so rare. It's like we think that we have to underplay our or downplay our efforts and our abilities. That's why I call it shameless, right? Like, what is the shame? If you, you know, did this marketing launch for the athleisure brand.

of the fall, right? What's the shame in saying our goal was 70% adoption and we got to 80% customer adoption, whatever the metric is. Like, what is the shame in that? Like literally using the words, I'm so proud of how this marketing launch went. I'm proud of this customer feedback. Here's a screenshot of it. I'm proud of this testimonial from a client and we could do the same thing for you if you're an entrepreneur.

We just hired a nanny recently, and she does a bunch of stuff around the house in addition to being a nanny. She's amazing. And so in her email to us, she said, you know, I love being with kids. I'm happy to do grocery shopping, and I'm an exceptional cook. That's like taking I'm Proud and dialing it way up to 11. And I have to say, one of the reasons I wanted to interview her was because she had the

courage, the wild courage to say in an email, I'm an exceptional cook. I mean, of course, you then got to have the goods to back it up. And she is a great cook. But like that really stands out and tells me so much. She's confident. She's bold. She is an exceptional cook. And like, think how...

rare it is for someone to say something like that. So whether it's I'm proud, or I'm really good at this, or these are my three power assets, you know, the three strengths I have, people oftentimes don't take time to identify what their three are. Mine are people leadership, stakeholder influence, and building things from startup to scale. And whether I'm meeting my boss's boss, or a mentor, or a new customer, like,

I have those identified. I have them practiced and I say them and I say that I'm proud of them because that pride is contagious and that positive energy is contagious. People want to work with people who they're excited by and like to partner with and who are positive.

Yeah, and you suggest that people actually do come up with those power, those three power statements and like work them in. I mean, there's all sorts of situations where people like say, introduce yourself or, hey, you know, I have somebody you want to be. Can you tell them a little bit about what you do? And then you launch into the three. Exactly. I was coaching someone yesterday. I do a lot of executive coaching one-on-one and in small groups. And I was coaching someone yesterday on an interview and she was like, but what if they don't ask me, you know, what my strengths are? I'm like, oh, it doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter what they ask you. They could say, why do you want this job? Boom. Well, I want this job because I'm really great at blah, blah, blah. Okay. Well, what are you most excited about in this job? Same thing, you know, to be able to leverage my three power assets. And I always encourage people to have two business skills and one soft skill, one people skill in there, just like your financial portfolio, your power assets, make up your power portfolio. And just like your financial portfolio is a mix of stocks and bonds. You want your power portfolio to be a mix of people skills and hard business skills. So no matter what they ask you, a mentor, a boss,

you know, an interviewer, you can always drop those three strengths in, but it takes time to sit down and identify what they are. Yeah. And you don't like the phrase shameless plug or shameless self-right. We throw that around a lot. I mean, what, what,

Because we've identified that, I guess, the idea that talking about yourself is seen as bad. Yeah, no, I think it's such a great thing. By the way, it can really hurt you in your career if you don't. Someone, you know, because now that the book's doing well and, you know, people come to me asking for help, which, of course, I'm delighted to offer. Someone said, hey, I'd love to talk to you about the publishing industry. You know, would you...

have a conversation with me about agents. And like, that's it. There were no numbers. There was no kind of like anything promoting the great work this person had done. So I just initially thought, this is probably one I can brush off, right? I'm human. I try to be productive also. I can't take every meeting that comes my way. And then I said, you know, do you have any examples of people

you know, do you have an audience? Do you have any followers on social media? That's obviously important for the publishing industry. She came back, she wrote me back. She's like, well, I have 270,000 followers across social media. And I was like, oh my gosh, if you had the, if you, and she probably felt like, oh, it's shameless to say that in my first email. No, that's exactly what I want to know. It is so much more efficient. It helps me be more productive and

But you saving me the time of A, assuming that you are totally starting out, you have no following, but B, I then don't have to come back and ask you, right? It's totally inefficient that I had to write back and ask her the question. So, you know, when we talk about a shameless plug, I have this example of someone who's in a meeting with 30 people and we were talking about something that was related to this thing she just built. And she said, well, this is a shameless plug, but I built this spreadsheet. I'm putting it here in the group chat. And if anyone uses it, you might find it saves you some time.

The emojis on the virtual meeting went gaga. Everyone's like, oh my gosh, this is going to save me 30 minutes every time I do this project. And so like, what's the shame in sharing a tool that's going to be helpful and help other people be productive? And yet we still are conditioned to feel like we have to underplay our efforts. We have to say, this is a shameless plug. But it's like, no, be proud of what you put out there. What I would have wanted her to say was, I'm proud of this resource I put together, and I think it will save you each a half hour.

I love anything that saves me half an hour. So it saves me five minutes. I'm all over that. So, all right, well, we're going to take one more quick ad break and I will be back with more from Jenny Wood. Hey, Before Breakfast listeners, we know you're all about making the most of your time. So here's a question. What if your lunch break could actually help you level up? Check out Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman. Every Tuesday, Ken sits down with top experts to unpack the real questions that help you thrive.

At work, at home, and in your own head. We're talking questions like, what are the 10 best foods for your memory? How can you ask for the raise you want and actually get it? What's the key to finally changing your life? If you love thoughtful advice and practical strategies, just like you get here, Front Row Seat will give you the clarity and confidence to get better, move up, and lead well, personally and professionally.

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Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit Jewel Osco dot com for more details. Well, I am back with Jenny Wood, who's the author of Wild Courage, just how to go after what you want and get it. So, Jenny, we always like to talk about routines here on this show. I'm wondering if you personally have any routines that help make you more effective.

Well, can I talk about one that I have started this morning? Okay. Today is as good a day as any. So if we started this morning, that's awesome. They say the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is today. So I started this today, even though for ages I've been wanting to do it. And this would be part of...

what I call brutal, right? This is the trait that's the courage to protect your time and energy. It's the power of no. It also gets into people pleasing, how people pleasing pleases no one and keeps you small. But this is real brutal. It's about ruthless prioritization at its core. And it's something I've struggled with for a long time is charging my phone next to me in my bed. And this is probably like the oldest trick in the book to most of you listening, but I'm new to it. And

I've realized that, you know, it's something I share in Wild Courage is if you don't have the time, the energy or the capacity to respond to an email, don't check it. So like if you're walking to the subway or, you know, to your car in the parking lot from work,

if you still work in an office, like there's really no point to scroll through your work email if you're not going to action and write back to that email in that moment, which you're probably not. If you're walking, you might get hit by a car. Well, I was finding the same thing would happen first thing in the morning. I would pull out my phone and then for like a good 45 minutes while my eyes are still half closed,

I would scan through DMs on LinkedIn because I'm very active there. I post every day. I'd scan through my inbox. I'd listen to maybe a voice memo from someone on my team, but I just wouldn't action anything. And then I would forget things. I would not get back to them. So I kind of applied that same strategy I talk about in the brutal trait, which is if you can't action it, don't read it. And so-

for the first time last night, I charged my phone in another room. My old boss would say, charge it on a different floor of the house if you have more than one floor, like make it really hard to get to. And then today when I sat down at my computer, I actually could read the emails and respond real time. And that is brutal. Like it is not easy to do that because there are so many reasons I would say I need to charge it next to my bed. But it's a $10 investment in an alarm clock and a digital, you know, digital clock. But I'm trying this out and

And I'm hoping that it can stick because it is it. It'll make a difference for me for sure. Yeah. Now, that's always what trips people up. They're like, but I need it as my alarm. It's like, well, guess what? People had alarms. We didn't magically wake up prior to smartphones. There's there's a way to solve this problem. Exactly. You'll figure it out. You'll figure it out.

Well, one thing I always ask people, Jenny, is what is something you've done recently to take a day from great to awesome? So obviously charging your phone somewhere else is going to hopefully take your days from great to awesome. But I wonder if you have anything else for us. Well, one of the... I think that...

I oftentimes live in a maximizer world. And this gets a little bit into the trait traps again. So this is about the obsessed trait. Obsessed is the courage to set your own standards, to push, perform, persist. It's to let your energy fuel or your enthusiasm really to feel like any project or any goal. And I can take that a little bit too far.

And there's this research by psychologist and professor at Swarthmore University, Barry Schwartz, who talks about maximizers versus satisficers. Maximizers want to dial any project up to 11. They want to ace every test. They want to, you know, run the marathon and have the fastest time. And I tend to fall into that category of maximizers. However, there are also satisficers who...

who are okay being an 80 out of 100 on a lot of things. And the research suggests that while maximizers might get slightly better results, the satisficers can sometimes be happier. And since I think it's not a bad thing to optimize for happiness when you're seeking taking your days from great to awesome, you know, I've tapped a couple times in this past week into one

being a satisficer and not my natural inclination of a maximizer. Again, this gets into trait traps. So basically it's like, where do I want to be obsessed? What projects should be an 11 out of 10 and what projects can be an eight out of 10. And so I try to not get caught in a trait trap by taking obsessed

too far on too many different things. So this week I had some good opportunities, especially spending time with my kids. I just came back from a field trip with my seven-year-old daughter. I drove them to choir a couple of times this week, went to field day yesterday at school. And so it forced me to be a satisficer on a couple of projects I had brewing for work. And it actually felt really, really great to

to be more discerning about where I had to just really squeeze every last ounce of productivity into a project and where I could say, eh, good enough. I'm going to go spend some time with my kids. And that made me my, that's made this week awesome and not just great. Yeah. I'm 100% a satisficer on so many things. I don't like, you know, looking at the universe of options. I want people to bring me three. Oh yeah. And if I go with one of those three, they're going to be great.

Yeah, that's something I share in Bossy. Bossy is the courage to steer others to success. And it's all about being a strong leader. And one of the things I share is leaders love threes. Give three options and then have a POV to your leader, right? Like giving three options shows that you can look at things from multiple perspectives. But having a perspective, hey, we could sell vanilla ice cream, chocolate ice cream, or strawberry ice cream next year if you're the VP talking to the CEO. And I recommend we go with strawberry, right? Giving those three options shows that you've got diverse perspectives that you're considering. But

The thing that your C-suite is looking for as a leader, if you want to be a rising leader, is do you have the courage, the wild courage to have a perspective to pick one of those three options? And oftentimes that senior leader will say, yeah, let's go for it. Or if they say no, then you've got really good data on their opinion, which you don't always have. But have the wild courage to give three options and have a stance on it. Yeah, absolutely. So, Jenny, what are you looking forward to right now?

Well, it's really fun to partner with companies and different leadership teams to help them tap into their wild courage and to improve employee engagement and to thrive through change. There's so much going on with AI and the economy and politically and in organizations restructuring that I think everyone is just looking for a dose of realistic motivation there.

and how they can thrive more at work and also in life. And so just all the incredible partnerships that are coming up with different companies, their leadership teams, or even their entry-level employees because they want to get them started on the right foot and hit the ground running. That's what I'm most looking forward to is just bringing this work to more and more companies because it is

so much fun to partner with people on. Awesome. And where can people find you? It's Jennywood.com. They can find me there and reach out to me for speaking engagements or workshops or buying the book for their organization or to have me on the show. Excellent. Excellent. Well, Jenny, thank

you so much for joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback on this or any other episode, you can always reach me at Laura at LauraVanderkam.com. In the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening. And here's to making the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at LauraVanderkam.com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia.

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