Productive procrastination, with Jorge Cham
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Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's episode is going to be a longer one, part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us. So today I am delighted to welcome Jorge Cham to the show.

Jorge is the host of the podcast Science Stuff, among many other things. So, Jorge, welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah, so why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Yeah, so again, my name is Jorge Cham, and I'm what you might call a recovering academic.

So I'm someone who used to be on track to be a professor or a researcher at a university somewhere doing research on robotics. So I have a PhD in robotics. But somewhere along the line, I got a little bit sidetracked by a cartooning career. Now, you might be wondering what does having a PhD in robotics and being a cartoonist have in common? And I can tell you, my parents are also very concerned about that.

I can imagine. It's quite the pivot. Maybe you can talk a little bit about what inspired that pivot. I mean, I find cartoons cool, so I understand. Yeah, yeah. It's been super interesting. So while I was getting my degree in robotics, I just happened to have this hobby of drawing comics. And so I drew this comic strip for the Stanford Daily newspaper there, like the student newspaper.

And it's called "Piled Higher and Deeper" or PhD comics. And the best way to describe it, it's kind of like Dilbert, but set in a university. Just poking fun at professors, students, the administration, all of that. And then at some point I put it online and it sort of went viral over the years to the point where I realized that these comics were much more popular than the research I was doing.

So I decided to kind of give it a go. And so I opted for a kind of a creative career instead of an academic career. And it's been a wild ride. I did those comics for about 15 years, got to travel the world, produced a couple of movies based on it. And then that eventually led to books and a television show for kids on PBS Kids. And now this amazing and super fun podcast called Science Stuff for iHeart.

Yeah, well, you've been doing the podcasting for a couple of years now in different iterations, right? Yeah, I was one of the co-hosts and co-creators of a podcast called Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a very humbly called, titled podcast. But we mostly talked about physics and kind of the exploring the universe and how things work. But after about five to six years, that podcast ended. And now I'm doing this for iHeart, science stuff. Well, what's the goal that you have with science stuff?

Yeah, the goal is to make science fun and accessible for an everyday person. So every episode we tackle a really fun and fascinating question like, do our pets lie to us? What is inside of a black hole? Or could you survive getting cryogenically frozen? Or something that's on the news lately, what is a quantum computer? So we do quick 30 to 40 minute breakdowns of science.

What are the main things? What are the main things to understand? We talk to experts. We keep it sort of light and fun and accessible to everyone. Yeah, that sounds great. Well, and I want to talk about an episode that you did not mention in your list there, but I'm sure is one that people will reference frequently, including my own children, which is the idea of whether you need to wait 30 minutes

after eating in order to go back in the pool or ocean. So as we are coming up to swimming season, maybe you can address that topic for us. Is it true? Do we need to wait 30 minutes? Well, you kind of have to listen to the episode, but I'll give you a quick breakdown here. Okay, we'll get there.

Maybe just a hint for people listening to this. No, I'm happy to talk about it. So it's one of our episodes that are out right now so people can listen to them right now. And the question is, do you really have to wait 30 minutes after eating before you can go swimming? And this is really kind of a personal question for me in the episode because I grew up in Panama swimming a lot in pools at the beach. And my aunt, my mom's sister, was a pediatrician. She was a doctor. And she would always be the one saying, no, after eating, you got to stop, wait, and

and just sit there and be totally bored for 30 minutes before you can go back to swimming. And so I really wanted to know, was my aunt lying to me the whole time? And so I go on this quest where I talk to a doctor who used to be a competitive swimmer, and I talk to a physiologist who specializes in exercise and how it relates to our digestive system.

And what's kind of interesting is you find out that a couple of the myths around this advice kind of turn out to be not true. So a lot of people think that if you eat too soon before you go eating, you might get cramps. Well, actually, it turns out that scientists don't really know what causes cramps. First of all, that's a little bit mind-blowing. But also, it turns out that they think that actually what causes cramps is not eating.

So if you don't have enough sugar or electrolytes in your body, you might actually be the thing that causes cramps.

And the other thing that a lot of people say is that why you shouldn't swim is that they think that maybe your stomach sucks all the blood in your body when it's trying to digest. And that also turns out to be not quite true. The physiologist said that actually your muscles are basically like huge hogs in your body. If they need blood, they're going to take it from anywhere they can anywhere in your body. And so you really don't need to worry because also your heart is pumping faster. So, you know, your stomach is getting bigger.

uh enough blood um the problem is though that your body doesn't kind of like having food in its stomach you know when it's kind of how your body tells you that you've eaten enough and so it gives you this feeling of being full and you feel a little bit uncomfortable and so actually doing a high intensity activity like swimming or or doing a lot of laps will actually

cause the digestion to slow down. And so that's why you might feel uncomfortable if you swim too soon after eating. Yeah, but it's not the cramps. You're not going to cramp up and immediately drown. You're not going to cramp and drown. Yeah. Well, I've heard different versions of it. I mean, there was like me, your aunt had 30 minutes, but I've heard people as much as an hour with that saying that would be even worse. So you could have had it worse for her. Yeah, I know. Other

But it's funny because, you know, for other sports, like we're sitting there giving our little soccer players like orange slices and whatever, like we're giving them calories while they're exercising. But I mean, obviously, you wouldn't want to eat a huge meal and then immediately try to like run a race or anything. Yeah, I think oranges, bananas and juice is probably great for the sugar and the electrolytes. But, you know, two cheeseburgers before going on laps or swimming out into the lake is...

You don't have to wait the 30 minutes, but you probably should. Or maybe just not eat the two cheeseburgers. Another idea. Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Jorge Cham.

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Well, I am back with Jorge Cham, who is the host of the new podcast Science Stuff. He's been telling us that maybe we don't need to wait 30 minutes before going in the water after swimming. But another thing I'm sure many people are wondering, can you survive being cryogenically frozen? I don't know that I was planning on doing it, but maybe some of my listeners were. Yeah.

Yeah. You might want to put those plans on ice. Okay. Literally, as it were. Yes. Yeah. So this is another episode that is currently out and people can listen to it. But it's about asking the question if you have a certain illness that they don't have a cure for right now, or if you wanted to go to a distant star, the closest star is about 40 trillion miles away. So it's going to take a while to get there. So if we over...

ever really want to explore the cosmos, we kind of have to figure out how to pause life, you know? Or you just want to kind of see what the future is like. You might want to get frozen and then you wake up when there's flying cars and jetpacks and all that. So there's definitely a lot of reasons to do it.

And so in the episode, we dive deep with a biologist who studies frogs, these wood frogs that apparently have adapted to survive these long winters out there in the cold Arctic and the weather. And they're able to survive having their whole body frozen basically because they develop –

adaptation to produce antifreeze in their body. Yeah. As they're freezing, their liver suddenly gets super hyperactive and they produce a lot of sugar. And then that sugar kind of acts as an antifreeze to let them survive being frozen. But that wouldn't really work for humans because basically we would die from the diabetic shock. Yeah. We don't have that adaptation yet. We're not evolved to freeze like frogs in the Arctic winter. Yeah. Oh, there's a

probably some interesting things with like freezing individual organs, right? Like I think you guys explored this. Like, I mean, you know, right now our transplant system is stuck by the fact that you have to get these organs where they're going very quickly. And if you had a match from say somebody in

you know, Tokyo and you're in New York, like you're not getting that organ for the most part. Yeah. Yeah. That's something we also take a deep dive in. We actually talked to the CEO of one of these companies that will freeze you, like they'll freeze your organs, but they also freeze your brain if you want it to, or they'll freeze your whole body if you think you're not going to make it. So it's super fascinating. And yeah,

And what they're able to do now is basically use the same technique, size of a frog, sort of. They use a kind of antifreeze called ethylene glycol or some glycerin, some sort of sugar alcohol. And they replace all the water in the cells of these organs. And then you can freeze them because that doesn't turn to ice. It sort of turns into more of like a glass thing.

And so you're able to do things for simple things like sperm or embryos if you're going through IVF or in vitro fertilization. That works. You can replace the water, dip it in liquid nitrogen, and then have it survive. It gets a lot trickier when you get to more complicated organs. So...

Like your liver, even your liver or your muscles or and especially your brain. It's just so complicated and so fragile that they haven't quite figured out how to get those two. So you can freeze them, but you might not survive. My night survived the process. You just have a frozen thing and, you know, it just can't unfreeze very well. Like like some of the things I put in my freezer when they when they come out. Yeah. I'm not sure that I really want them. Freezer burn is a real thing and you don't want that in your brain. No, I don't want that for sure. Yeah.

Well, on this podcast, we talk a lot about time management, productivity. You've done a lot of things in your life, Jorge. I understand that your productivity secret, as it were, is productive procrastination. Maybe you can enlighten us on what that is.

Yeah, yeah. I like to think of myself as a professional procrastinator. I sort of center my whole life and time management around this idea. And before I get into trouble with any of your listeners who procrastinate and then they get into trouble, there's sort of two things you have to really attach to this idea to make it work. So these are very important things. So the first one is my belief that procrastination is not the same thing as laziness.

So we often associate the two, but actually if you separate the two, you will have a better go at it. So laziness, that's when you don't want to do anything. Procrastination just means you don't want to do it now.

So they're two different things. And the idea is that if you put off doing something and then you don't get it done, then that's laziness. But if you just put something off doing something, if you just put off doing something and then you get it done, then that's just procrastination.

So it's kind of a way to hold yourself accountable. If you don't get it done, you can procrastinate. But if you don't get it done, then you're just kind of being lazy. Okay. And then the second thing that's important is to think about this idea that

I think we do our best work when we're doing what we want to be doing instead of when we're doing what we think we should be doing. Okay. If you look at the definition of procrastination, it means to do things that you want to do instead of doing the things that you feel you should be doing.

So I sort of organize my life by I wake up every morning. I make a list of the things that I need to do. And I look at sort of how urgent some of them are, whether this one's already late, whether this one's due today, tomorrow, the next week. And then instead of going down the list by what is more urgent, I go down the list by what I want to do. Like I look at this list and I think, well,

I know I need to really do this and I know this is really important. But right now, what I really feel like doing is doing this. And so that's I'm sort of procrastinating by definition, but I'm so motivated and I'm much more excited and enthusiastic about doing it that I think in the end it comes out to be better work.

But do you ever get to the things that you were supposed to do or do we just forget those? Yeah. Where does that happen in the course of tackling this to-do list? Yeah, yeah. Well, that can get a little bit tricky. But basically, if you sort of do all the things you want to do, once you get those done, then you're just left with the things that are urgent and that you didn't want to do in the morning. But at that point, you know they're due, you know they're important for you. So you're just going to get them done at the end of the day. Yeah.

So I have found, you know, and maybe this is a version of this, I can sometimes get myself to do all sorts of things that I wasn't sure I wanted to do by putting something else on my list that I truly do not want to do. And so by once that thing is on the list and I really don't want to do that, I'm like, well, you know, this other, like, I don't want to do my taxes. But compared to that, like calling this person and having this unpleasant conversation, it seems okay. Like, that's not so bad. I'm just having a conversation or editing this document that's a mess. But, you know, it

It's just editing. It's not my taxes, right? Like, is that something you ever find yourself doing? Sort of sometimes. But, you know, I find that the brain is so clever and adaptable that any kind of trick, any kind of scheme you try to implement to fool your own brain or to get you to do things you don't really want to do, ultimately, your brain is going to adapt to them or it's going to find excuses or it's going to basically realize, oh, I don't really have to do this. Yeah.

And so for me, at least what's worked is just to really think about what I'm motivated to do. You know, what is it that I really want to do and focus on that. And, you know, once you get all the fun stuff done at the end of the day, you're like, oh, I have some time. I really need to make that dentist appointment. I really want to have nice teeth. I don't want to have cavities. All right, I'll make that call. And so that's that.

Kind of how I organize my life. Excellent. Well, you mentioned that you sit down in the morning and do this. I'm wondering if you have any other sort of routines you do during the day that have that have been helpful in your life. Yeah, great question. I do that. I have a lot of sticky notes around me. What are the sticky notes do for you? Well, they just let me write down those things that I need to do.

So I have a little notepad. I'll write down little notes and I'll stick it on my desk. And then at some point they accumulate and grow to a huge pile. And then I really have to, you know, on a weekend afternoon, I'll just sit down and try to get those done. Excellent. Everything that's on the sticky notes. Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Jorge Cham.

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Well, we are back with Jorge Cham, who is the host of the Science Stuff podcast, along with many other things, including a long career in the comic world. So I am very curious about the creative process for doing a comic. I mean, I can tell you about the creative process for writing or coming up with podcast ideas. But when it's something visual, like what how are you playing around with ideas or processing ideas before you have the finished artwork? Yeah, well, for me, it sort of starts way before I even sit down to think about them.

You know, when you're a cartoonist and you know you have that pressure of coming up with a comic strip every so often, for some people it's every day, for some people it's every other day, you sort of learn to always have your antenna up.

Whenever you're talking to friends or family or whenever you're out in the world, you're always sort of desperate for ideas and you're always desperate for those little nuggets of truth that are just floating out there that make you go, oh, that's funny. Or, huh, I wonder why people do that. And so for me, the process starts way before even sitting down, which is I always have this antenna up.

And then when I sit down, I sit down with a notepad. In this case, it's a digital notepad. It's a Samsung tablet. I love that machine. I have this one that I've been using for like five years. It's helped me write about five books and about 30 television episodes that I've written. And so it's just this really great way to...

brainstorm and then just write things down. I think most people know that when you write things down, it's basically like expanding your memory or expanding your RAM memory if you're sort of a computer geek, where you can sort of lay down ideas, put them on papers and then they're floating there and then you can access them and make connections to it. And I especially like using a digital notebook because it's sort of like an infinite canvas

So if you use a notepad, at some point you're going to hit the edge of the paper. But if you use a digital notepad, you can just keep doodling and making connections and following a path. So I am very visual when I brainstorm. And when I write, I sort of doodle along and make little sketches and then connect those to words and then write out a paragraph by longhand and write.

Yeah, it's one of my favorite parts. Yeah. Well, I imagine like there are certain thoughts that make a good comic. I mean, especially if you're thinking about like a three panel comic, like what, you know, the setup, the, you know, teeing up the end and the punchline and the last one or however it goes. I mean, it must just be a certain mental model that you then have of the universe and putting everything in that order.

Yeah, yeah. There's always sort of like the setup, the development, the punchline, and then the after punchline in a typical comic strip. But again, it all starts with that nugget of truth, you know, like why do we procrastinate, for example? Or what's the first thing that we do in the morning? Why isn't it usually the thing that is maybe most pressing? Or, you know, if you're in a position where you're working with somebody, why...

They tell them certain things at certain times. So those little nuggets of truth, that's where it starts. And then I try to build the sort of the setup and the scene around it. Yeah.

Yeah, excellent. Excellent. So I'm curious then what your daily schedule tends to look like these days. I mean, we're getting up, making the to-do list. We're going through some of it. Do you keep regular work hours or what does that look like these days? Oh, I think my spouse would be laughing right now. She's hearing this. So part of this idea of procrastination is, you know, what I'm trying to do is basically lead a lifestyle where, you know,

it sort of seems like I'm retired. You know, if you're retired, your goal is to just wake up every morning and just do what you want to do. And so that's a little bit how I structure my day.

I kind of go with where my motivation is. So some days, especially Mondays, I'm not super motivated. And so I just don't put a lot of pressure on myself to be productive. But then Tuesday, maybe I'm really motivated and then I'll stay up all night maybe or stay up really late. And then the next morning, I might not get as much sleep, but then you catch up a little bit later. So it's a very kind of fluid process for me as my family will probably comply.

Well, if you found people who will put up with you, then I guess good for you. Yeah. Yeah. So far, so good. So far, so good. Well, that's awesome. So one thing I often ask people is what have you done recently to take a day from great to awesome? Oh, great question. What have I done recently to take it from great to awesome?

So recently, I have a series of books for kids out called Oliver's Great Big Universe. And it's sort of like a diary of a wimpy kid, but with science. So it's educational, but also really fun with a lot of barf and fart jokes for kids. Of course. So it's a great series. And as part of that, I get invited to go to schools and do school talks for kids.

And recently I was in this school in North Carolina and I can have a couple of options for presentations. I have one that's sort of like, here, I'm going to talk about the universe and how amazing it is and how big it is. And I have one that's a little bit more chaotic where I run this kind of game show with the kids and I have to draw them, but also answer their science questions at the same time. Super fun. And so, you know, it was a very kind of buttoned up kind of school.

But in down school, very, very nice school. And I was like, you know, instead of doing the safe science talk, I mean, let's go with the chaotic fun one. And the librarians were all into it. So like, yeah, let's do it. And it turned out to be this really incredible experience with the kids where at the end, they're like standing up, cheering, hugging each other, high-fiving each other. It was just pure joy from beginning to end. And I think, you know, it was one of those moments

moments where, you know, you don't know what's going to happen in the future. You don't know what's going to happen if I make this decision. But let's just go with it. You know, let's go with the option that seems more fun. And it turned out to be more fun. Yeah, no, I like that. That's great approach to life. Like what will make more of a memory? Right? Eventually, we'll be on the other side of anything. So at least we should get a good story out of it. Yeah. So what are you looking forward to right now?

Well, right now I'm pretty focused on this new podcast, Science Stuff, which folks can find anywhere they get podcasts. And I'm super excited because it's an interesting deep dive into a different topic every week. So one week I'm taking a deep dive into near-death experiences. Are those real? And the next week I'm taking a deep dive into, well, what happens if you dig a hole to the center of the earth? Is that even possible?

And then the next week, I'm getting hypnotized by a couple of hypnotism experts to see if hypnotism really works. Well, I can't wait for that one. We'll look forward to listening to that and see where you go with that. Yeah, I guess I remember also while not swimming for an hour after eating as a kid on the beach, you know, wondering if I dug a sand hole to China. That might have been something to occupy the time for the hour that you couldn't swim. Yeah.

These are deep questions we're asking. These are deep questions. These are, Jorge. I'm glad we're getting to the bottom of this. So yeah, we can check out the Science Stuff podcast. Jorge, thank you so much for joining me today. Awesome. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback on this or any other episode, you can always reach me at laura at lauravandercam.com. And in the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening. And here's to making the most of our time.

Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at laura at lauravandercam.com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, listeners.

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Hey listeners, I am all about simple beauty routines. That's why I love Merit. Their products make looking put together effortless. For example, there's Flush Balm, which is a sheer, buildable cream blush that blends in seamlessly for a healthy natural glow. And let's not forget The Minimalist, which is a two-in-one foundation and concealer that's perfect for those days when you need quick, natural coverage.

So if you're looking to streamline your beauty routine too, head to MeritBeauty.com. You'll get their signature makeup bag free with your first order. Simplify your routine and feel beautiful with Merit. Hey, listeners. I need to tell you about Hill House Home. I love this brand. They invented the viral nap dress. And let me tell you, it is so flattering and comfortable with their signature smocking. I'm not the only one who loves Hill House dresses. So if you're looking to streamline your beauty routine too,

Celebrities like Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Anne Hathaway, and Mindy Kaling have all been spotted in the Hill House nap dress. One of my favorite things about Hill House dresses is how versatile they are. I can wear the same dress during the day and then head out for dinner at night without missing a beat. Hill House Homes' commitment to comfort and style doesn't stop at their dresses. They started with bedding back in 2016, and their prints are just gorgeous.

Their bathrobes and pajamas are so soft because guess what? The PJs are made with the same cotton fabric as their baby onesies. So when I wear them, I literally sleep like a baby. Hill House is perfect for all ages. They have the cutest baby and kids items like tiny robes, onesies, and PJs you can monogram. All just adorable.

So get 15% off your order of $100 or more at hillhousehome.com with code BREAKFAST15. Again, that's code BREAKFAST15 for 15% off your order at hillhousehome.com.