What it Means to Forget
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They're called Monday.com, and it was love at first onboarding. They're beautiful dashboards. They're customizable workflows that is floating on a digital cloud nine. So no hard feelings, but we're moving on. Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use. Welcome to the new books network. Hello. Welcome to psychoanalytic perspectives on racism in America.

a special series of the New Books Network. I'm Dr. Karen Messini, your host, along with my co-host, Dr. Felicia Powell-Williams.

In this series, we discuss the tools and concepts of psychoanalysis, those that might help us understand the persistence and dynamics of racism in the United States. We'll be talking with analysts, and particularly Black analysts, to help us comprehend and combat racism.

I hope you enjoy and learn something from this series as we do each time we do it. So today our topic is cancel culture and what it means to forget and also be forgotten. We'll be talking about this topic and how and when it emerges and how it has emerged in recent years.

and how it's been illustrated in some of the actions that the current administration has taken. At least that's the way it can appear. So, Felicia, why don't you start the discussion by describing cancel culture as you do it today, and also how it emerged?

Of course, Karen. Thank you for such a lovely introduction for today's episode. When we think about cancel culture, what we need to take in is that as we know it today, it does have roots in Black culture and also particularly within the realm of Black Twitter. And it emerged as a tool

for marginalized communities to call perceived injustices and hold powerful figures accountable. So in keeping with that thought, it's also important to add on to that, that the concept of cancel culture gained a

you know, a gang dependence alongside of hashtag movements. You know, when we start thinking about social media and the hashtag Me Too, hashtag Black Lives Matter, hashtag

Black Girl Magic. There's all of these particular ways in which it's gained some of its prominence within social media and it's helped to spread, you know, really the action and language of cancel culture even further. So it'll be really important for us to take that time and look at that today. Yeah.

Well, thank you. That's very informative. I'm going to take a look at something that's happened recently in our country. And that's the erasure of Black, Indigenous, and women's military histories at Arlington Cemetery. This has been in the news a lot in this particular... It has. Yeah, it has. And probably all places in the country, I hope, anyway.

And what it means to cancel part of our culture. That's what's happening. So in the middle of March, just a recap for people who aren't familiar with us or know the details. In the middle of March, as part of the revisited DEI directive,

brought by the White House, Arlington Cemetery's website scrubbed various aspects of notable graves, and that's a quote that's been in many papers, of dozens of biographies of figures such as Colin Powell, General Colin Powell, the members of the Tuskegee Airmen,

And also, there were parts of it that were scrubbed. This is the website that included grave sites that highlighted specific efforts of African Americans, Hispanic Americans, and selected women service members who are buried on the grounds. And yet, what had previously been there, lists, maps, lesson plans,

on the website, they were removed. This is according to Forbes magazine.

So I'll start out with that. And maybe you can give us some specific information about that. And I have a little story I want to read from a teacher. Oh, and before you read that story, I want to add another piece to it as well, is that there were erased heroes, you know, just like Jackie Robinson. And just really, you know, these moments of when these people

these heroes, these particular individuals, like you mentioned with Colin Powell. And then all of a sudden there was an immediate return to, oh no, that was just an error on one's part. And so they have been added back. So this whole idea of having the power to cancel, but then revive.

And how we may think about that also in the consulting room. There's still a lot more, you know, even with,

the Department of Defense and some of the actions that have been taken with military profiles. And as you've talked about just being removed from the website altogether, that can be quite concerning. But then how it trickles down into one's psyche and how those that we may treat may come in and hold people

that type of experience within themselves as it's being projected from societal issues. Yeah. Well, also just in terms of the website, there was public outcry and some of the information has been returned, but not all of it, not in the state that it was. Exactly. Exactly.

There's one particular person who I'd like to talk about. I was really struck by an article I read in CBS News. Oh, excuse me, that's NBC News. This story is about a teacher in Tennessee, and it was NBC News.

It was about a teacher who previously, for several years, had taught about the Navy hero Doris Miller to her students. And he was a cook on a ship. He was gunned down attacking Japanese planes at Pearl Harbor in 1941.

This happened before he led other soldiers to safety. So he was the first black sailor to receive the Navy Cross for Valor. And his images was actually used on recruitment posters. But earlier this year, the teacher went back to the website, getting ready to teach her students again. And she found that it was taken down. And she was extremely upset about that.

as were her students. So that piece that she used to teach is no longer there. Now, the Pentagon press secretary told NBC News earlier in the week that D.I.N. is dead at the Defense Department. This is a quote.

Discriminatory equity ideology is a form of woke cultural Marxism that has no place in our military. It divides the force, erodes unit cohesion, and interferes with the service's core warfighting mission. So the backgrounds that documented thousands of webpages are

of military history have been scrubbed from the Pentagon website. And with that sort of statement, I mean, it sort of goes hand in hand with that sort of statement. So I just wanted to read that piece and just add that Navajo Code Talkers

women were also erased and women were various women, certain women of color were as well. So I think that's important. It's very important. Maybe. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Absolutely. Maybe you can tell us your sense of how it, if you started to, but maybe, maybe a little bit more of how,

cancel culture affects us affects the person who's canceled i mean we can imagine but um they've thoughts about more thoughts about that yeah you know and thinking about that thanks for that question you know this phenomena can be defined you know

in different ways. But one way to consider is, it's more so where's that individual or even that entity is thrust out of the social and professional circles or, you know, places within our own society. I think that it's important for us to keep in mind that

Even through the practice, cancel culture describes just the existence that

that tends to create this element of threat and discomfort within individuals. But also in looking at discomfort and threat, we have to keep in mind that even throughout history, this has existed and that it's been criticized. You know, it's been criticized as a form of

you know, injustice. It's been criticized in ways in which we have to keep in mind that fear is really a way in which it's been utilized in canceling people out.

That it creates this fear base in which one may take in that they can be attacked or they can be annihilated at any time, which therefore reduces any ability of trust.

and sense of security or even reliability within oneself or any external object or experience that a person may have. So these are ways in which it can be done.

It can affect an individual, but, you know, just the whole idea that, you know, canceling out and how a person participates in that type of action, you know, and that type of mindset of canceling out and even the gestures, it could be very subtle.

It could be very subtle in ways in which one may not really comprehend how they're participating. And so subtle within these very small microaggressions that we've talked about in previous episodes of our podcast. But, you know, those are some of the ways for sure in which it can affect an individual and it can affect a group.

You know, just like what we're starting off with, you know, how we now have this group, not only of African-Americans, others of color, but even gender when we start talking about women can be reduced to not exist and not be valued.

And again, that big piece of fear that comes in that you can be annihilated in some way, not just socially, but in the minds of others. Right. Right. And one thing I would like to talk about the impact just briefly on mental health, but I do want to say that Dr. Paul Williams and I are, are experts in this area. We're not just speculating about something.

We're going to talk about mechanisms of defense. In this case, we're talking about things that have been written in newspapers, magazines, and that we've heard people say on television. So this isn't just something that we're speculating about. We do really have an obligation to warn the public about things.

In an informed way. So we're going to be talking a little bit later about mechanisms of defense and how it appears to us that these particular defenses are at play. You can decide for yourselves what you think. But on the topic of the impact of mental health,

I mean, there's really no way to escape how somebody would be... If somebody is canceled, how public shaming would come in. That's right. It's just inherent with being canceled. It's just on a much, much less egregious scale. If you're canceled from...

invitation list and you've always been included in somebody's get-together and all of a sudden you're cancelled from the list. That doesn't feel very good. But when your whole being or what you did for your whole life is cancelled, that trumps, pun intended probably, being cancelled from a party list.

But it can certainly make someone feel intensely shameful, and it exacerbates loneliness and anxiety and depression, just for starters. So what about the consulting room, our offices, Felicia? What do you think is happening there when it comes to me? Ah! Ha ha ha ha ha!

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Well, I think it's really important for us to just consider some of the transferences that come up within those sessions with our patients and what gets projected, you know, from their own experience, you know, with, with, you know, with their own feelings. And so, you know, and keeping in mind cancel culture at that point, for example, you know,

The fear that the the analysts, the fear that the therapist will cancel them out. And in a sense, let's say, for example, when we're looking at various, various topics, whether it's race, whether it's gender, whether it's sexuality, even age.

disabilities, things of that nature. But those things come into our consulting rooms. And oftentimes there is a fear that as analysts, we won't hear, we won't be able to take that in and that there will be a shaming, as you so mentioned, from us with our patients. And so there's all of the projections that they bring in that we have to be mindful of.

And being mindful of that within ourselves, because we do carry things that do at moments really affect how we think and what we hear and what we take in. So that piece is really important. You know, their own fear and their own uncertainty that annihilation will happen within the consulting room.

And for us to be mindful within those transferences that come in, you know, our own countertransference and even some of the possibilities of reenactments that will be, you know, utilized, you know, in the diet, the analytic diet that we need to take into consideration and really be mindful of. Right. That's a very good point or very good points that you've made.

So maybe we could move on to defense mechanisms. And in this category, Dr. Powell-Williams and I will be talking about what it appears to be to us. We have not analyzed the people who have been involved with cancel culture in this particular period of time.

but we can talk about what defense mechanisms we think are at play. And one that's kind of new, it's not on the usual list, it's not new, but it's more appropriate to say that it's not on the usual list of defense mechanisms, is erasure.

Ah, as a defense mechanism. Why do you suppose that happens, Felicia, that somebody is erased? A threat?

Oh, definitely. Definitely. Definitely. It's, you know, erased as a threat. And the erasers, you know, feeling threatened and afraid, you know, difference as much as it can be embraced, right?

and celebrate it can also be weaponized and used against a whole other group. And when one person feels threatened by difference, a clear way of doing that is erasing and removing altogether. Yeah, right. Just as a sidebar, it reminds me of all the Kennedy papers that have been

released lately oh and not only the kennedy papers but even martin luther king's a set absolutely oh yeah yeah so it was suppressed repressed for a reason and now that it's coming out it's it's quite telling but that's a topic for another day it is about the defense mechanism

So return of the repressed is interesting. Maybe you could talk about that, but I'll just say that when figures have to erase, push somebody aside, suppress really, because that's done. Although it's called return of the repressed, it could be unconscious, but suppression is generally a conscious action that

But when somebody does that, it doesn't go away. And I think that it's generally thought that it only makes the problem worse and it makes public outcry louder and media attention stronger. Do you have some thoughts about how that has happened in this instance?

Well, well, I think what you're also saying, or at least what comes to mind for me is that with erasing, you know, I go back to that, that it makes the wound even more visible. It's more public.

But if we were to think more about the return of the repressed, again, as you mentioned, that whole public odd cry and how the media's attention just represents the return of that whole racial history. And what I love is how

is how it comes up in the arts, just like Spike Lee wearing Jackie Robinson's jersey on Instagram and other ways in which it comes up and what we tend to carry with us and make sure that what one tries to erase is

you know, what one tries to repress, that there is within that upcry a visibility of what that is, you know? And so it could be wearing of something. It can be speaking to. It can be listening to music. It can be, you

You know, not only, oh, Karen, you know, a way in which film will take such precedence and making sure that we stay in a place to see the relevance of our own history and that our history isn't isolated to one group. Right.

But our history involves a diversity of many different layers and threads that come together to make us who we are as a group, as a country, as human beings. So when I think about that, especially repressed, that comes to mind for me. And also in a way in which it brings forth

It brings forth an element of truth, you know, that we have to look at the reality of what's really there. And that can be very difficult. Yeah, absolutely. And that may be where projection as a defense comes into the picture. I think so. There is projection. There is something about a person who,

that they can't tolerate, so they project it onto others. It's very common in our society, as is projective identification. Now, that's when the recipient of the projection starts to believe what the person is saying, no matter how

off base it may be. But we're not talking about projective identification here. It's just projection of one's own flaws and behaviors that are not, well, say, not stand-up behaviors, but it's much easier to say it's that person who possesses the feelings or thoughts or behaviors. It's not me. I read a book one time

It's not me, it's you. Uh-huh. How narcissists use projective identification to do what they want. And it's unusual for a psychoanalyst, but it also was a self-help book and said what you can do about it. So anyway, it's not me, it's you. That's projection.

And there's also something akin to it, but it's displacement. And it occurs when feelings of, say, anger or frustration are redirected from the original source to a more acceptable target. So it sounds very similar. And it actually is pretty similar. In this case, cancel culture may provide an outlet for

to express pent-up frustrations with societal issues by focusing on specific individuals or entities that they can scapegoat. So again, it's pretty much in the same camp in this case.

What about defense mechanisms, Felicia? You know, I'm thinking about rationalization. You know, after you making that comment, I just, I love the self-help book. It's not me, it's you. Did I get the title right, Karen? That's right. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that we have to talk about that at one point. But when thinking about rationalization, you know, I think about how that also plays into, you know, the whole cancel culture, you know, component and it participates in such a way to where it just really justifies, you know,

the actions of so many as, you know, necessary for social justice, you know, or accountability and even the consequences or just the disproportionate way of how one perceives the offense. Right.

And this allows the individual to maintain a positive self-image while engaging in potentially harmful behavior. And so just being able, as we kind of throw this around a lot, just kind of rationalizing it, but a way in which

a person tries to take this in to make sense of it. You know, as if it's what they're choosing, you know, has some, some relevance, some validity to it. And so I think that that plays a very big

part in as a defense mechanism in cancel culture but you know also there there's other perspectives to this that we can keep in mind as well you know from a psychoanalytic standpoint and cancel culture can be understood as a a collective defense itself

you know, against anxiety and unresolved conflicts. So these are things that we do need to hold on to and think about when we are sitting with this whole topic of cancel culture. Yeah, that's a very important point.

In that, there has been some research lately that suggests that cancel culture can have a positive effect on marginalized groups. Now, that sounds counter to what we've been saying. But if you think about it, if people come together and they understand what's happening to them, there is a sense of community that can emerge from that so that you know it's not just you. It's people who...

aren't willing to familiarize themselves with your culture or your race or your gender, and they just push you out of the group. Well, if you band together, there can be something that's comforting about that, and there can be feelings of validation in a community. So I think that's important to point out.

It's better not to have it. But if you do, that is something that that is maybe comforting is a better word. And it's it strengthens the thread, you know, and, you know, some of those positive effects. It goes back to as we were beginning to talk about defense mechanisms.

And looking at even, you know, Spike Lee wearing, you know, Jackie Robinson's jersey. It's so faceted even into Black girl magic, Black history, you know, and we haven't talked about that being canceled out.

You know, that Black history was being canceled out in all federal buildings or federal institutions. The removal of Black Lives Matter Avenue, removing of all of those things as if that's

being canceled out. So we think about that and one may say, well, what does that have to do with psychoanalysis or, or, you know, what happens in the consulting room? You know, it brings in much of what we're talking about with how one will identify

not only in their own experience with themselves, but also in how that gets woven into even archaic or previous relationships, or even the relationship that may get played out in the transfers between the patient and the analyst.

And so it can be utilized in a way in which it can strengthen, you know, certain groups. It could strengthen the analytic process. It could strengthen groups in regards to especially African-American community within churches and community centers where there has always been a way in which groups will come together and rally and strengthen that cord. And then you have ways

Women who come together, women who are saying that their voice is powerful and all of those particular pieces that matter. What matters is not only being a woman, but having the power to make decisions for oneself, one's body, one's medical care. Those things enter into our consulting room.

And they enter very powerfully and how we have to sit with that, whether we're sitting with the rationalizations, the projections, you know, we're sitting with the displacements. All of those things tend to trickle in and they can be ignited into, you know, a powerful emotion, value.

But then also it can create, as we mentioned before, especially you, Karen, the shame, the anger, the fear.

So I lend that to our listeners as well as we continue talking about this. Yeah, I'd like to pick up on something I said earlier, that it can be empowering if people come together. They don't feel alone in being counseled. It can give them a voice. But it doesn't happen with everyone, of course. So silencing is another problem.

Because that's its aim. Its aim is to silence voices that people find offensive. So some people who don't come together with other people can feel silenced, and that can feel pretty awful.

And one thing that we have now that might, well, that didn't happen X number of years ago, maybe before 2012, is that we now have like public humiliation, public cancellation, so to speak, amplified by social media.

It can really feel like a very intrusive attack on one's psyche when people read about all this, they read about themselves. It can be filled with distress, emotional distress, and trauma. It can be traumatizing. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Well, and also...

Again, I fall back to the fear. When we start talking about cancel culture, we have to keep in mind with these particular groups, there are others that are in the group who are so afraid of speaking out.

Right. You know, so when you mentioned silencing, you know, what happens if they speak out against what they may recognize as an injustice, you know, as a canceling, as an eraser, you know, you know, what happens? And so they silence themselves out of their fear of whatever they may imagine happening.

Whatever it is that they're fantasizing about could happen to them, whether they're going to be canceled, whether they're going to be annihilated in whatever way they imagine that. So again, you have that silence because there's this need to preserve oneself.

You know, there's a need to make sure that one is safe, you know, and then we go back to a rationalization of making such a decision of that and not speaking out and remain silent. Absolutely. So maybe we can, I have a thought and maybe you can add to it. What remains is my question. You have to scrub these stories.

I don't believe it's about neutrality for one second or being merit-based. I think it's about power, control over the narrative, and who gets remembered. Because nobody's asking these people whether they want to erase part of their histories. It's being done to them. Oh, yes, yes. Very good point, Karen. Yeah. So what does it mean to forget?

And who benefits from silence? Powerful? What do you think? I think it's twofold. And we've been talking about that, you know, during this time. Yeah, the powerful, for sure. But then let's...

Let's look at this. It gives one group power. You know, if we were to just take the word power, you know, what's you, you have one group who benefits from the silence and.

And it feels very powerful for them because they feel as if they have the authority to make a decision. But then you have the other group who is feeling othered, who is feeling erased and canceled. But in their silence, there may be for some within the group a preservation.

you know, a way in which to preserve and protect. But at the end, you know, that silence, you know, does it really hold as much power as one might think? But I could see it as twofold. Yeah, that's a good point.

There's another thing that just came to my mind that I've been thinking about as I've read all the things that have happened in Arlington. And that's the Signal, the app, the Signal, where so many members of the cabinet and a few other people were talking about

attacks on Yemen with specific details. Now, that doesn't seem to be on the road to being canceled. It seems to be that that's okay. So it seems to be a double standard here. We're canceling people who we might not want to be part of history because

But something that's really quite egregious, I have read that it could be a violation of the Espionage Act, that people are talking about national security issues on a non-secure app. It seems quite egregious to me. And so far, now we don't know what will happen going forward, but so far there doesn't seem to be anything that's being done about that. So it's quite curious.

Yeah, but Karen, let's go back to the beginning of that. You know, here's this information that is being discussed, you know, on a non-secure site. But then our thoughts and feelings, the reality of all of that was being canceled. Like, no, this never happened. Why would you think that this happened? This is not real. Right.

And so there is this whole idea of this group who really wanted to cancel out our own thoughts, the own realities that actually existed in front of our eyes.

So it takes us all the way back to the beginning of this podcast, you know, that there are these, you know, real, you know, in real time moments that are trying to be removed from one's own consciousness. Right.

to benefit another group and their need to have power. And so that also is something that we have to keep in mind as analysts, as we are working with our patients, you know, that there is sometimes this way in which we're seen as this powerful entity within this diet.

and how we carefully have to be mindful of the analytic listening.

And not intruding or assessing or making these moments with our patients in such a way to where we're taking on and exuding this element of power to where we silence our own patients. Go ahead. I think that's an excellent idea for the consulting room.

But you and I, as citizens, I don't think we're going to let this signal app situation be silenced. Oh, no. We all know it happened. We know it happened. We know it happened. So as public voices and citizens of this country, that part, we're not going to.

we're not going to allow that to be silenced. The uprising, the uprising of the fact that we have our own mind and that we can see and hear for ourselves and that we don't need to be guided in this way of being told what's real and what's not. Right. We know that.

We've lived in a democracy for too long. It's a hard-happened other story, but we have lived in one previously. Got it. And hopefully in decades to come. That's right. Well said, Karen. Yeah. Well, we'll be back next month with another podcast about this topic and

We hope that this was interesting and I'm sure people would have a lot to say about it. Yes. And please, you know, comment and share with us. We would love to hear from you. Okay. We'll talk to you again soon. Bye-bye. Bye.