S5E1 Female Genital Mutilation: Can we achieve zero tolerance with zero coverage?
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Hello, MediaStormers. We are so excited to be back for series five of MediaStorm. If you tuned in yesterday, you'll know Thursdays is our weekly news watch where we help you make sense of the biggest mainstream media stories. But the main reason we set up MediaStorm in the first place is because across all news, the most important voices in the story are often the most underrepresented, those of the people living it. Whether it's refugees or people in poverty, prisoners,

prisoners, sex workers, trans people, homeless people, the news about them too often does not include them. So every Friday, MediaStorm's Deep Dive will be dedicated to getting their voices on what's happening in the world.

This week we've decided to cover a topic that is hugely underreported in the mainstream: FGM. Yesterday was FGM Zero Tolerance Day, so you may have seen there was a small flurry of articles, a much too small one, but our guests are here to make the case that this needs to be covered all year round.

FGM stands for female genital mutilation, the deliberate cutting or removal of a female's external genitalia. It runs from type 1, the total or partial removal of the clitoris and its surrounding skin, to types 2 and 3, removal or repositioning of the labia minora or the labia majora, the inner and outer skin folds surrounding the vagina, to type 4, other harmful procedures like

pricking or cauterising the genital area. FGM is currently documented in 92 countries around the world, the highest share in the Horn of Africa, countries including Somalia, Egypt, Mali, Sudan and Ethiopia. It's also found in Asian and Middle Eastern countries and in diaspora communities in the West. FGM is one of the biggest killers of women in Africa. Over 200 million women globally have been subjected to it

Basically, this should be a media storm. But instead, there's mere silence. So today, we'll ask FGM survivors why, what struggles are happening behind the scenes, and what we can do to help.

After a 34-year wait, the UK has had its first FGM conviction. Please know this is a tough topic and the language is graphic. I want to tell you about FGM. FGM? Yes. Female genital. Female genital condition. What's that? Cutting clitoris. They cut what off? We're increasingly alert to the fact that FGM is taking place here in the UK.

Welcome to MediaStorm, the podcast that starts with the people who are normally asked last. I'm Matilda Mallinson. And I'm Helena Wadia. This week's MediaStorm. FGM. Zero tolerance and zero coverage.

Welcome to the MediaStorm studio. We are lucky to be joined by two very special guests. Our first guest is a psychotherapist who specialises in supporting survivors of sexual violence. She is an award-winning international campaigner leading the fight against FGM and is currently serving as the advocacy director for the Girl Generation. She is about to become a three-time MediaStorm guest. Welcome once again, Dr Leila Hussain. I want to break a record, obviously. Yeah, please do.

Thank you so much for having me. Really happy to be here. And our second guest is a Somali-Irish humanitarian worker and activist who has dedicated her life to saving countless girls and women around the world. She's the founder of IFRA Foundation, an international charity with the aim of the absolute abandonment of FGM in Somalia.

Welcome, via Zoom, from Somalia, Ifrah Ahmed. Thank you for having me and really great to see Leila Hussain. Oh, Ifrah, so good to see you. Especially for Zero Tolerance on FGM Day. Yeah, yeah. It was such a perfect time because, Leila, you proposed this episode to us as a friend of the show. And then I thought, well, I know exactly who we need as a second guest, Ifrah, because...

And if any listeners caught the Channel 4 show that I was in on Monday, you may remember Ifrah from the show who actually takes us around Somalia and tells us about FGM. Ifrah, have you seen the show? What do you think? No, I haven't seen it. People call me in Ireland and they told me they saw me on Channel 4. I was surprised. LAUGHTER

You've got bigger and better things to do than watch yourself on Channel 4. No, really, I would love to see it. I really want to see also the outcome of those young British who come to Somalia, how the reaction and what they have learned and how they see my tour in Mogadishu. I'm so jealous that you got to see... I haven't seen Mogadishu since I was 10 years old. Oh, really? Wow.

I invited her to come to Somalia. No, it's just timing. Something gets in the way every time I want to go there. So I'm hoping 2025. And this is again, it's another sign.

The reason we're here is to talk about FGM Zero Tolerance Day and FGM in the media. Now, this week saw FGM Zero Tolerance Day. Leila, could you just tell us more about the day, what its purpose is and what this year's theme is? I mean, for us who are working in this campaign, and I think Yifrah will agree on this, for us, there's no a day. We're working on this every day. For us, it's an everyday issue. But globally, it's a day that's been picked.

to really highlight the issue of ending female genital mutilation. And I'm actually glad we're using the term FGM because

What myself and many others, 230 million women, have experienced is actually mutilation. It's not cutting or circumcision, which the media have been doing for a very long time. So really, my purpose this week is really just to keep reminding people of the language we're going to be using. I'm glad you went straight to language because yes, FGM as a term, if we say it in full, female genital mutilation, is telling. But there are still a lot of euphemisms used when it is in the media. One of the ways that it's commonly been described is as

a traditional cultural practice and there has been some development, right? I think if I just go back a little bit, a few years ago when I was training as a therapist, my professor who was a Nigerian woman really challenged me on this because I kept using the word traditional cultural practice.

And she challenged me quite a lot to why I kept referring to it as a traditional cultural practice. As a therapist, when you're working with someone who's experienced any form of violation, part of your healing is to call it for what it is. It's assault, it's child abuse. But really, when you think about the context of FGM, it's actually torture because you're torturing another human being. And it's done very publicly. That's why we use the wrong language. For example, traditional harmful practices.

cultural practice even the word practice tell me where we use the word practice for something that violates human beings you know you practice yoga you practice well-being you practice to be a good human being we never say we practice violating children hopefully by using the right language maybe we might get stronger political will because for me tradition and culture it's my

My food, the way I dress, music, I don't think it should be harmful. Yeah, you know, people saying it's a cultural practice instead of saying it's a human rights violation. It's really damaging and harming young girls without their will has been brought in and cut in and sewed together and...

taking her rights and reclaiming for the culture. As you said, culture is something you're proud of and you eat the food. You say that Sambuza is a Somali culture and when you wear beautiful, colourful, red dress, you say this is Somali culture, you know.

I do think also when we describe something as a cultural practice, it makes it something people don't want to touch. You know, either on the one hand, cultural awkwardness and sensitivity, we shouldn't get involved and that's when, you know, sort of the left becomes its own enemy. Or on the flip side, it's some people just don't care as much about migrant children or black children and calling it cultural practice makes it something that people then feel apathetic about if they don't think it's part of their culture. Yeah.

So I wonder if there's a distancing. Yeah, I think that's literally what language does. Because the moment you wrap it around culture and religion and tradition, it already puts a barrier. Because you cannot now not step in in case you offend. We don't want to offend people. And I think Britain has historically, because of colonisation and everything else, Britain has taken part in in the world. There's this fear that they're going to be seen as harming other cultures. But actually, if this was happening to white girls...

there'll be an outrage. And all we're asking, can we have similar outrage? By not, but actually by putting it into the cultural traditional practice framework, actually then you are being racist. That's what I'm always saying, especially to the left. I'm like, no, no, no. Then you're saying it's okay, girls that look like us to suffer and for the world to be silent.

So to give listeners a sense of the scale of this, a 2023 study by the University of Birmingham found FGM is the fourth leading cause of death among African girls, with mortality rates nearing those of malaria. Now, this usually occurs due to blood loss or infection. And researchers in the study looked at countries where FGM was most common.

FGM is happening and they found about 44,000 excess deaths of women and young girls each year. By contrast, the issue is barely covered in the media and not just in countries where it's most prevalent due to massive social stigma as well as censorship, but all around the world. Bear in mind FGM is a massive problem in countries with diaspora populations.

including Western countries our listeners are tuning in from, which we'll get into. But in the UK, there has been almost no news articles about FGM in any legacy media since October last year, where there was an incredibly rare criminal prosecution. We did a search. The Guardian had the most articles published

mentioning FGM of any legacy media, with 17 reports in a year. After that, numbers fell sharply. The BBC News has published 10 articles mentioning FGM in the past year, including all world news articles. The Telegraph had five. The Independent, we found three. And in The Times and The Sunday Times, there was just one single article in the past year. Given how massive a global crisis this is,

Why do you think there is relatively such little media attention? Because I think FGM has been primarily affecting non-white girls. It's really about race. I think if they were white women who came forward and said, we've been affected by it, I think there would be an outrage. I think this is a quote from WHO, the most vulnerable human being that's left behind is

It's the African girl child and FGM affects that girl. That's why no one talks about it. Let me take you back in 2020 when COVID happened. The world got crisis and the gender-based violence has been completely forgotten. And now as we have a global crisis with the climate change, same thing again, gender-based violence has been completely forgotten. You know, the way people care about global crisis, the way that people care about the coronavirus, should be care about gender-based.

And I think media is the most powerful tool. But the fact is that when I started speaking out, I was not the survivor. I was described as a victim. I was this victim of female gender mutilation. You know, we've been really strong to speak out.

and there's no many women speaking out. Those women who want to speak out, even they see how hard it was being an activist, how we've been distracted by the media, how we struggle ourselves, and they have seen everything. And I have witnessed many young women saying, "I don't want to go through this. I am not going through what you have been through, speaking on public and being criticised by the community, being called a victim, not the survivor, not being given the voice you want to give to the community."

So that's also one of the other biggest issues that media, how they describe us as activists. Some of us, even the media have damaged because of the way they have been treated and described on the media. So the media have to bring really a language that we appreciate as activists to speak out.

So many important points there. And I think one of the biggest things that we have to do is address that common misconception that FGM doesn't exist outside of Africa. And it is a significant issue in the West. In Europe, over 600,000 women are living with the consequences of FGM and 190,000 girls are at risk across 17 countries.

Here in the UK, the government estimates that around 137,000 women have undergone FGM and some 60,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk. But that data hasn't been updated for a few years on their website. It was like 2021, I think.

And NHS figures show that there's been a big rise lately. It's more than that. Right? I wasn't recorded as an FGM survivor until 2015. And I've been here since 92. So there's still so many women that are still not recorded. And unfortunately, the training for health professionals and...

school teachers, everybody, the police, it's still not compulsory. I mean, yeah. So what does that say? Those are the numbers we have. They're out of date and it's been rising. In the US as well, the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention estimates as many as half a million girls and women in the US have undergone or at risk of FGM. And while there are laws in place in all these countries to tackle it, there are almost no convictions. Just three in the UK since 1985. And that is in spite of thousands and thousands of offences. So we're clearly doing something wrong.

And Ifrah, you were involved in changing the law in Ireland. And I wonder how you accomplished that and really just how much of a difference that change could make. I was a disturbing person. Troublemakers, yes. So in Ireland, when I spoke out for a time, I get a lot of death threats and I get a lot of people complaining that I spoke out. I felt that there is something wrong and we have to change it. And Ireland, they did not have a law.

I remember meeting one of the Irish politicians, Labour Party, a man called Joe Castello, and I felt he was genuine and he was a great man. And then I felt that I should target this guy because he can help. Through him, I mobilised with the politicians. That is how the bill was passed. Almost four years ago, there was the first case of female genital mutilation. So, you know, having the legislation in Ireland has given a really big impact to the community.

because the community do understand that there is a law. And if they take the younger back to Africa or do practice within the country, they have to go through the legal process. So we are lucky we have the police and the community police and the society are working together. So, yeah, and the politicians as well.

It's really amazing. And I think it's worth pointing out if you came to Ireland as a refugee and have been pivotal in changing their law for the better. But this touches into something I really want to talk about, because one of the few places that FGM does sometimes come up in our conversation is in the immigration debate. Yes. Now, FGM, as many point out, is largely contained within communities that originally had migrant routes.

And it has been used as evidence of a clash of cultures or to make the case against immigration. And the reason that this came up for me is because we were filming in Somalia, learning about FGM in a TV show that was about migration. And one of my fellow travelers had strong preconceptions of migrant men as misogynists and predators. And learning about the prevalence of FGM in Somalia exacerbated those fears. And even now on TV,

Twitter or X, I've seen people be like, well, isn't this proof that we don't need people from these countries in our country? So what would you say to people who see FGM as a reason against accepting refugees or migrants? How do we separate being anti-FGM and

and I hate that I have to ask this, from being anti-migrant or anti-Islam? And I think we do have to ask that because people are saying it. There's so many layers to this response. I mean, for one, I am so sick and tired of hearing this framing that FGM is a Muslim issue. FGM is practiced by all faiths, from Muslims to non-believers to Christians to Ethiopian Jews. FGM is a global issue affecting women in Asia, Middle East, Africa.

I recently met women from Colombia, so we know it happens in South America. So again, it needs to be framed as that.

I think the reason people use the word Muslim, the women who came forward, who were very brave, came from a Muslim community. So that really should tell you what Muslim women are really like, if they can actually step into this space. Because I'm a Muslim if I was a Muslim. So that's one bias that we need to really put aside. And I mean, we cannot help that people, a certain group of people will always associate it with migration issues. This is a bigger issue. This is about patriarchy. Tell me where in the world...

Patriarchy is not an issue. That's number one question. Ask yourself that question. If there is a place I would like to go there. Yeah, I'm also still looking for that place. And by the way, FGM fundamentally happens to control the female sexuality. Again, tell me we're in the world, we're not trying to control female sexuality because, you know, we can put the argument of labiaplasty into this conversation.

Again, it's about language. Labiaplasty, we said, oh, it's you're tucking in the clitoris and trimming the labia. I mean, it's tied to FGM. Right, yeah. So for listeners, labiaplasty, you might know it as sort of design a vagina. Design a vagina. Who can forget Gemma Collins on The Only Way Is Essex bragging about her £2,000 design of vagina. Like literally. You can cut the labia, you can cut the clitoral hood. But what we are saying yet again is,

in order to be accepted as a woman, whether you call it FGM and this side of the world and it's barbaric and it's terrible, but in the UK, it's the second cosmetic surgery now because we are telling young girls and women, something's wrong with your genitalia. You need to tuck it in.

So those who are saying it's a migration issue, it's not a migration issue. That's what I'm telling you. This is about a patriarchal issue where we want to control female sexuality. That's what it's all about. But we put it on migration so we don't address the patriarchal issues in the West, in the so-called democratic countries. That's the real issue. That's my opinion anyway on this. Yeah.

I just want to just enforce that comment because something that does frustrate me so much as I'm hearing these arguments come from people who have histories of expressing extreme sexist views or accounts on social media. And if we really, really cared, then well, firstly, there's plenty we could address at home like

You said labioplasty. I could see that as a dangerous cultural practice where we are indoctrinated to think our vaginas aren't sexy enough unless we put ourselves at risk of potentially fatal infection or harming our sexual pleasure and fertility organs. Do you want to hear something crazy, even more crazier? The current FGM law... Mm-hmm.

that prohibits me and Ifrah from going to get labiaplasty done. But you can. You maybe, they're going to have to check because, you know, you're a bit brown. I'm a bit brown, you know. Yeah, yeah, they're going to have to figure out who you are first. But literally...

I'm not allowed to get labiaplasty done in the UK. Because the surgeon, what, would be prosecuted for FGM? We'll both be in trouble because apparently I'm not smart enough as a black woman to make a decision about my body. There's the other argument. So the only difference between like really, really fucked up FGM and actually quite okay, like commercial FGM is our race. Well, labiaplasty is offered on the NHS for girls under 16. Did you know this?

I read that some surgeons will meet girls as young as nine. We're telling them, go and trim your labia. So to those who think this is a migration issue, please go and educate yourself. This is a global issue against female sexuality and that's what's under attack.

And tell me where in the world that's not been attacked. From the US to the UK, there's a serious, severe attacks on women's bodies. Ifrah, do you have anything to add? It's completely two different things about being an immigrant or being cut. Every mother wanted to protect her daughter. Every mother...

She wanted to save her daughter from this harmful, the so-called traditional cutting, which is a human rights violation. So I think, you know, it's a complete disagreement and people want to mix up and say that this is their own culture. The story repeats again and again and again. And you remember when your team in Somalia and I was explaining about female gender penetration or gender-based violence, I really appreciate the fact that they have learned something they didn't know.

And when they have seen their own eyes, maybe they appreciate why people wanted to go to UK. If they have peaceful life, if they have been protected, their rights of their body and things like that. Somalia has been a war over 30 years and people are still struggling with life. And I would say that in my work with refugees in camps, I have met refugees.

multiple times women and girls who are seeking sanctuary because they're fleeing FGM. You know, the EU estimates some 20,000 refugees seeking asylum in Europe have undergone FGM. And so this is just one more case on the real importance of refugee sanctuary in this world. Put this way, if I look at my own child, my own daughter...

And I think about the young girl who was born in Mogadishu right now. I see it different because my daughter was born basically country that she's protected and she was born from mother who actually believes that, you know, she has a right to live. She has a right to be educated. She has a right to her body. She has a right to say no. But imagine this child's

who is in Somalia, who doesn't have all these rights, and mother is looking for to protect it. And you know, thinking about every mother who actually goes to journey on smuggling or leaving the country for better life, I see the future, I see my own daughter, because she has suffered for gender-based violence. She has suffered

for female genital mutilation. She has suffered to give birth to her. She has suffered to raise her. And now she's looking for a better life. So that is the difference. Something that I'm so struck by in this conversation is really just the bravery of survivors.

and the importance of listening to survivors. You know, Leila, you told us that your work, much like this podcast, stems from people who have lived experience of suicide

the issue at hand. And it is rare in mainstream media when covering FGM for them to be able to speak to survivors for so many reasons. Many are underage, many might feel too much shame to speak out, some might be worried about the effects on their family, some might just be in an impossible situation being censored.

So I really just want to kind of hammer home the importance of a survivor-led approach to your work. Any...

A large movement in the world has been led by those affected, right? Whether it's the civil rights movement, the Me Too movement, it was survivors speaking out. This is how I feel about this issue. I mean, at the Girl Generation, we now have a survivor-led initiative. But with this initiative, we were really making sure survivors are also safe. Because if I can tell you some crazy stories where we were not safe, you know, oh, go work with politicians, but no one told us the risks.

You know, I remember when I presented a documentary for Channel 4, I had to go into hiding. Like, literally, I was moved home a few times. My address was protected. I couldn't go and buy a washing machine from Curry's because my address would not appear in the system. Because really, we...

our lives were really at risk. So this initiative that we now developed at the Girl Generation is to get survivors to really think about, okay, so if you take this route, have you looked at the safety? Do you have a therapist? Because the emotional toll this takes on you, it's devastating. And it's not just for FGM survivors, but I think it's any survivors of violence or struggle will tell you the exact same story. So for me personally,

The work with the girl generation, besides the power of language work, the survival initiative has been so important because it's how do we address this issue and tackle it the way it needs to be if we don't create a safe space for the survivors? Actually, when I messaged you and a couple of other people, I made the intention to talk to people who could make me feel safe. Sometimes it's not safe to talk to every journalist. That's just not safe because you're asked crazy questions. I don't know how I survived in those situations. So it's important that...

Any survivor you speak to, that you do create that safe space and safety element because your aim is always not to do harm. That's so critical in this work. Let's try. I mean, we're human. We will harm some way, but can I at least make that my intention not to harm? So survivors have always been the forefront of any movement where changes have been made.

Yeah, no, Leila, I do really agree because, you know, I remember coming to Somalia and there was zero understanding on female genital mutilation and also zero media publication. And I remember sitting on one of the private TV that they said they want to interview me about. I don't know, the guy was not really explained what I have to talk about. And when we sit down, I remember he said, we are going to talk about rape and sexual violence and female genital mutilation.

All the fun stuff. And I look at him and say, no, no, no, no, no. You are here to raise my voice and I'm here to say to you what is right and what I see. And journalists are not your best friend. Even they are your best friend. I remember one of my journalist friends and I told I'm going to Somalia. And then he said, are you going to ask your mother why she's sad? And then I said, yes, I will.

And next day was headline about FGM activists going back to Bali to question grandmother. And that was safe. That's so bad. But Ifrah, that led to, do you remember the photography project?

Face of Defiance really came out of that. This is a project I founded a couple of years ago because I was so sick and tired of the media. Because they always want to show the dark side of us as well. They don't show the other woman who's funny, laughing, sexy, beautiful, is always a sad person looking down. Because that really fits in with the narrative. And yeah, so we learned to create our own image.

initiatives around this so we can protect ourselves and educate other media platforms. Yeah, because honestly, I follow Lola's Instagram and it is more about fashion than FGM. I am. I wish more people picked on my fashion. I'm like, come on, like, stop focusing. I mean, Ifrah, I met her as a model. No one, I never seen the media ever mention Ifrah was a model. What?

Ifrah was a model. Yes, that's how I met Ifrah. Positivity is really important because since you have been doing this campaigning, there has been massive positivity.

positive change. Well, rare studies show significant improvements since awareness campaigns have taken root, especially in East Africa, where FGM prevalence decreased from 71% in 1995 to 8% in 2016. West Africa showed slower progress, but prevalence still more than halved. So it's really important to show this because it shows how important your work is and how much of a difference it is making and how much of a difference coverage of FGM can make.

So, so that listeners know how they can get involved and help you with the change that you do. Ifrah, to start, will you tell us where people can follow your work or how they can get involved and help? I always take example Tesco. Tesco have a ban. It says every little house and I like that.

Tesco will be very happy to hear this. So, you know, now you invited us, me and Leila, to speak and people, when they share on their platform, that raises the awareness. Taking our voice to another level helps the community to understand. We're asking people to basically share their platform. As Tesco said, every little helps. And whatever they can do, people can donate. Ifra Foundation, people can find us on Facebook.

and also Instagram and Twitter. Your voice is very important to us. Thank you. Thank you. And Leila, what can people do to support your work? Yeah, so, I mean, all social media pages at Leila Hussain and please follow the work of the Girl Generation because, you know, even though we're based in Africa, but there's a big connection with the diaspora. That's how whenever I'm here, I'm like, hey, the connection is there. Girls are taken back. So British girls are taken back. European girls are taken back.

So it's very important we continue with that work. And I guess for me, what I would ask people is really reflect on the language again.

Just imagine your daughter or someone, a woman, a girl that you know, going through that you will never use the word cultural tradition. So that's really a challenge I'm going to give to all your listeners. Just really begin to challenge your language. We all carry biases. We're human. Like we've all been conditioned in a certain way, but just challenge that a little bit, but also do it safely. Don't feel bad that you've been using the wrong, because I've been using it too. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been incredible having you both here.

Thank you for listening. If you want to support MediaStorm, you can do so on Patreon for less than a cup of coffee a month. The link is in the show notes and a special shout out to everyone in our Patreon community already. We appreciate you so much. And if you enjoyed this episode, please send it to someone. Word of mouth is still the best way to grow a podcast. So please do tell your friends.

You can follow us on social media at MatildaMal, at Helena Wadia and follow the show at MediaStormPod. MediaStorm is an award-winning podcast produced by Helena Wadia and Matilda Mallinson. The music is by Sam Fire.