S5E4 How to fight polarisation: With Jess & Nathan from Channel 4's Go Back To Where You Came From
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Hi, MediaStormers. Welcome to your Friday deep dive. Now, as you possibly know by now, Matilda went on a Channel 4 show called Go Back to Where You Came From.

Now, in the likely chance MediaStorm listeners aren't spending their time trawling through some relatively clickbaity reality TV, Matilda, could you just outline for us what the show was all about? As it's going to be pretty important background information for this episode. Go back to where you came from. It was a Channel 4 show designed to show people the realities of refugee journeys in a bit of a radical and radical way.

quite controversial way. It was described just to me as like an immersive experience. So they had two groups, right, of three people and

With very different views on migration, the reality was each group had two people who were very, very anti-migration and one person who was pro. Half of us went to Somalia, half of us went to Syria, countries where many refugees are leaving. And we followed either the African or the Middle Eastern common migration trail to Europe and to the UK. And we debated our views as we went.

Okay, so each group, as you said, had two people who began the journey with anti-immigration views and one person who began the journey with pro-immigration.

with pro-immigration views. Well, we know which one you were, so tell us about your aunties. Right, so first up, there was Nathan. He's a trucker from Barnsley. His views against immigration partly come from the fact that he actually can be penalised if people try to enter the UK by smuggling themselves onto his lorries, as often happens, with this being one of the only routes into the country for asylum seekers. Yeah, so he has genuine fears of costs to his business.

But also a lot of his thoughts echo tropes in right wing and even mainstream media, like that all asylum seekers are illegal immigrants and therefore bad people, that we're being invaded, etc.

And then we have Jess. Jess comes from a small town in Wales, Llanelli, which felt quite screwed over by the Conservatives' asylum seeker housing policy. It was actually their deportation policy. Basically, the town's local hotel was contracted to house a population of 250 asylum seekers due to be deported to Rwanda. Meaning, firstly, they were basically all men. And secondly, there wasn't actually a lawful plan to move them or process them.

And so they were stuck there. Now, Llanelli isn't a huge city and locals were not only upset about having their local hotel, bar, wedding venue taken from them, but Jess was very concerned about an influx of people that she knew nothing about. And mixed into this, you know, with the very scary perceptions of other cultures and male illegal migrants, fears that anyone could very easily get.

from, again, reading the news and never having the chance to meet people like this in person. So she thought they could all be dangerous, violent, sexually threatening. Yeah, suffice to say, your views were very different to Jess's views and Nathan's views at the beginning. Let's have a little listen, just so people who haven't seen the documentary are aware of what we're going to be talking about today. A warning, the following clips contain offensive language.

We found out that the hotel at the bottom of my garden was going to house illegal immigrants. 300 brand new neighbours that haven't got passports. It's absolutely terrifying. I looked online and you'll see them on the boat ripping their own passports up and throwing them in the sea. You know, these people I'm going to cross could be paedophiles, could be rapists. Our government is allowing these people in, you're criminals, I sense. Putting everyone at risk.

I own a haulage company. We pull containers out of docks. If we get caught with an immigrants in bag, it's £10,000 per immigrant. I get fined. I have to live in fear of an illegal immigrant, whereas most people that are sat on their arse just going, Oi, let him in. I haven't got a clue.

Okay, so that was Jess and Nathan in episode one. Now, listeners, stay with us, especially if you haven't watched the show, because the fourth and final episode came out this week, and I honestly found it very moving. I felt like the people on the show, including yourself, Matilda, but especially Jess and Nathan went on such a journey emotionally and mentally. So let's take a listen at some clips from the final episode.

He's an angel. I'd have him at the bottom of my garden, of course I would. When I get back, I'll be telling people we shouldn't have been as scared as we were because these people aren't scary. I actually feel so embarrassed that I thought that way, you know? It just goes to show of what you read online and you get consumed by, and it's full of shit. Something has to be done. Why the fuck are these kids risking their fucking lives? It shouldn't be happening, and that's it.

Make it safe, make it fucking legal. At the beginning of this, did I think I'd changed my opinion? No, not even a little bit. But fuck me, I have. And I'm proud of myself for that. I really am. Finally, to feel we're speaking the same language is amazing. I think I'm going to miss Nathan. Well, bring it in, my man. I'll do it.

Wow, Tilda, it sounds like you actually made friends. Like, I'm kind of jealous. Am I being replaced? Yeah, I did. Yeah, and you know what? I had two goals when I went out there. One, kickstart a completely different approach to refugee conversation and policy. Okay, just a tiny goal then. Just a small one. And my other goal, it was to take down unnecessary polarisation. We are so polarised. You hear it said a lot. We live in...

Online echo chambers, there's so much exaggerated clickbait dragging us further apart from each other than we need to be. So I wanted to try and focus the debate on shared values and find creative ways to bridge our divides, like listen to each other, even as we disagree,

And I hope that this would get us closer to positive solutions. Because honestly, I think that polarisation is one of the biggest obstacles to refugee rights, minority rights, as well as just general social cohesion. OK, so let me get this clear. You went on a Channel 4 show called Go Back to Where You Came From to try and fight sensationalist, hyper-polarised black and white debates. Yeah.

Pretty much, yeah. You don't like to make life easy for yourself, do you? Easy? No. But worth it? Let's find out.

People in this country have had enough of mass uncontrolled immigration. Strange men from faraway lands, we don't know who they are, trying to get into people's homes. The majority of those that are coming don't work. People have been frightened about talking about immigration because they're afraid of being called bigoted. They then go and take up all the housing. I think that we need to tow the boats back to France. Welcome to MediaStorm, the news podcast that starts with the people who are normally asked last.

I'm Matilda Mallinson. And I'm Helena Wadia. This week's Media Storm. How to fight polarisation. With Jess and Nathan from Go Back to Where You Came From.

Welcome to the MediaStorm studio where today we're joined by two very special guests. I think you guys should introduce yourselves. I'm Jess from Wales. I'm Nathan from Barnsley. Nathan, you said on the show that Matilda needs to hang out with more normal people. So by the end of this, I'd like to know whether I'm one of her normal friends or one of her not normal friends. You can let me know at the end. Listen, believe me, I'll tell you if you're not.

Okay, so we're going to start with the easy questions first and just talk about the show a little bit. So first of all, Jess, what was the best part of the journey for you? Probably coming to realise that I'm not scared of anyone anymore. I'm not scared of people. And at the end of it, probably making friends with the crew, Matilda, Nathan,

I don't know, it was a very wholesome experience in general, you know. That's a really lovely answer. Nathan? Is it going to be a lovely answer?

So I just I think it was just more like a better understanding how life works, if you know what I mean. So it was more like to see how other people live and how other people cope in their back gardens, if that makes sense. So obviously taking from me, I'm just used to my own comforts. So for me to do something so out of ordinary, it was more of a challenge and it was a challenge that I'm so glad I did. Yeah. Yeah. Matilda, what about you?

I think for me the best thing was meeting you guys. It gave me such faith in people, right? Because even people that you really, really disagree with are normally good people and don't think what we think for...

bad reasons or like hateful reasons. We always have good reasons. And then just seeing, yeah, like how you reacted to everything and to everyone. It's just like people are just good. People are good. Cudi pay. Now, obviously, I'm somebody who just watched the show. So I saw just the four hours of the show. So was there anything...

particularly funny or silly that happened behind the scenes, something that we didn't get to hear on screen, I want to know. I need an exclusive for this recording, okay? What about when we all got in the ship because Nathan drank the bar dry? And outed us in the hotel, told the whole hotel, they'll channel for you, and then we had to relocate. Stupid bloke. We had like, we had one,

really, really strict confidentiality everywhere we went because there was so much security. So this is in, we were just arrived in Kenya and we were all like locked into this hotel because there was some, I don't know, security crisis happening that we weren't told anything. And so we just discovered that no one was going to challenge us if we started ordering drinks. Yeah.

And then Nathan started getting pissed and bragging to everyone. No, Matilda, there's ordering drinks and there's ordering drinks like him. Who goes and does a disarray and a shot in a Corona every single time till about, I guess, about 20 and then starts going, yeah, it's your fault, boys. And then they had to move our hotel because then everyone knew. Guys, let's give Nathan the right of reply, please.

So, they said you can have a drink, right? So, while the girls were having, like, the margarita shite that nobody drinks, I thought, it's a free bar, I'm going to go over top. I'm not being disrespectful when I say that. That air roast desk were well worth a pump. So, I thought to be saying, I'll say I'm on Channel 4 here. Maybe she, you know what I mean? Yeah. But she didn't.

And I just, I caused a security risk. While he was trying to pick someone up, he breached security, like the number one rule, and we had to move. We were when I got really, really pissed off and walked off. When didn't you? The thing is, this was a real tough thing for the three of you to do. I mean, watching it, like I said, I only saw four hours of it, but watching it, it's pretty...

It's pretty incredible some of the places you went to, some of the things you had to do, some of the things you saw. Hiking through the Alps all night, essentially. I mean, Matilda actually struggled at some points watching the show because obviously, as is the case with TV shows, the edited version is not exactly how it went down in real life. Was there anything when you watched it that happened differently to how it was shown? Maybe, Matilda, you can start.

Yeah, so they obviously delete almost everything. We were miked and filmed full time for nearly five weeks. There's so much in there. Knowing everything that I said or wanted to say, I found it quite hard how much was deleted. Like Nathan, we're in Lampedusa. This is the one thing I asked, can you just please put this back in? And they were like, oh, it's too late.

And it was when you're like, oh, we can't help everyone. We can't help everyone. And it's been said a lot throughout the show and by Chloe as well. We can't help everyone. And that's referring to we can't help every single refugee. We can't help. OK.

That is said so much and it just like annoys me that they didn't let me answer because no one's saying we should help everyone. It's just like, can we help more than we are currently helping? I think I said something like that. So, you know, sometimes I just found it difficult how much was taken out. And actually, Nathan, that was an argument that you made quite a lot on the show. We can't help everybody. Now, if someone said that to you, what would you think or feel?

You see, I'm really strong about this. It sounds awful. I don't really care about the adults. It's only the kids I'm more interested in.

Now, make it safe and legal for kids, 100%. Like, kids don't know what they're running from. Kids don't know what they're fleeing from. Kids shouldn't be doing that. Nobody should be doing that, to be fair, the journey that they're doing. I'll admit that. But no kid should ever be born in this world scared, and no kid should have to ever run from something. I always say this now. If I looked at myself four weeks ago, I'd kick my own head in because of how ignorant I was because I didn't know what was going off.

Has it changed reviews? I'd say 50% yeah, because we still don't know the people are coming in. We don't know if they're good or bad, which we've seen there is good and bad. So obviously that needs addressing.

But again, I agree with Matilda, what she says, but you just can't help everybody. You can't. You can't help everyone, but I guess no one's saying we should help everyone. That's the thing. No one is arguing we should help everyone. So it's kind of a moot point. I think, to be honest, the term we can't help everyone, I think it's the most stupid thing anyone can do because the truth is if you can help one person, that's why we constantly repeat in the same stupid sentence. Yeah.

Nathan, was seeing the kids the hardest part of the journey for you? Yeah, so the kids I'll never, ever forget. So the scene when we were at the train station, me, Jess and Bushra, seeing them kids wet through after they'd been chucked out of a boat, I'll never, ever forget that because it was like the most heartbreaking thing I've ever seen because you could clearly tell Mother was scared to death, but the kids were so happy.

and they were running around, they were playing, even I was playing tag with them. They haven't got a clue. And it was just that moment in me that just went like that in my head. I was thinking, I don't even know how to address this. For the first time in my life, I was speechless at that tech summit. Seeing wet kids that have run from war-torn countries or scared of famine or scared of sexual assault, seeing them just not having a clue and being wet, honest to God, that'll be with me forever.

And Jess, what was the hardest part for you? Probably listening to all the stories. What a lot of people don't know is you only see four hours. You know, we were in these places for a long time. Not so much listening to other people's stories as well. It's like...

Listening to you, Matilda, I didn't know anything about immigration. She was like a teacher. That's just not seen on there. It kind of looks like she's just this quiet person. But the truth is, me and Nath were asking her questions 24-7. Only because we know it's truth, what she says. She's not going to make it up. And I learned so much on that journey.

One memory that will stay with me is probably James in episode four. Yeah, so tell us about James. He was a refugee. He came from South Sudan, but you didn't meet him until Calais when he was trying to get to the UK. And he told you about the boat journey he'd had where hundreds had drowned. Yeah.

That, to be honest, that was probably the last part of his journey that we heard. And there was way more horrific stuff that he'd gone through prior to getting here, you know. And, like, listening to what he said, it's unbelievable. He's gone through way worse than we realised. To see a man just standing there so vulnerable, I just remembered him.

The whole time I was home. That stuck with me, you know, the realisation that, like, there's me going, men are assholes, 24-7, which, to a degree, I'll always think, like, I can't help it, it's imprinted in me. But then when you actually speak to them, no, far from the truth, you know. Far from it.

And Matilda, what was the hardest part for you? For me, I think the thing that I found really difficult at the beginning was with you guys. I was speaking a different language, right? Do you remember everything I said? You'd be like, what the fuck is that word? And I was trying to use statistics and facts to challenge what you guys thought. And at the end of the day,

It wasn't about statistics. It was about like hearts and feelings and emotions and just being people and just respecting each other and listening to each other as people. I was just overthinking and that was a big lesson. Well, that's off to you though, kid, because obviously you've seen all the shite that goes off over there anyway, like when you do your volunteering stuff. And, oh.

Oh, is it volunteering stuff? Is that right? Sometimes volunteering, sometimes, yeah, work. Well, I don't know. When you go over there and help, anyway. You're used to it, seeing it, and you're used to hearing it. But me and Jess, we were learning how to adapt with what's going off. And then what you did, it kind of happened after week two.

You were talking more me and Jess language and you learned how to treat us. Yeah, I'll admit this because you did well with me. I'm the most stubborn man on planet. And for you to then... Because then you adapted how to talk to my language and how to talk to me. That's when we started to get on. When you started to swear, that was it. But look, you could really see that come across on the show. And honestly, I'm not...

just sucking up to you guys because you guys are here because Matilda will back me up when I said a few weeks ago, I said, Jess and Nathan are the stars of this show. Okay, she'll back me up. I'm not sucking up. Okay. But the reason I want to say that is because

Before I watched the show, I had this idea that everybody who had these strong anti-immigration views were just racist or they were just Twitter trolls. I didn't, like, see them as real people. And I actually learned from both of you guys because I...

completely sympathised with your fears once I understood what they were and where they came from. We'll start with Jess. You opening up about your negative experiences with men made me understand why then you would in turn fear having a lot of men living in your village. Do you think that you were more afraid of Somali men? Oh yes, because when do you hear anything good about Somali men? Please tell me anything in the media. You don't, do you know what I mean? And even if there are Somali doctors, they're not praised.

It's like, you know, if I'm only hearing negative things, that the only thing that Somali men do in the media is rape children and do all this. It's going to believe it, isn't it? It's just going to have that in me, isn't it? But no, I don't think like that anymore. One thing I learned from you is the way that working class communities take on an unfair amount compared to what, like, richer communities are taking on. Communities need to decide their own solutions and actually distribution needs to be fairer. Because in the same way that the richest countries in the world take...

way less than the poorest countries in the world. Well, within those countries, the richest cities, the richest communities take way less than the poorest cities, the poorest communities. Hearing that from you was so important because you explained it in a way that was really different to how I'd seen it in the media. Because when I saw what was happening in your town in the news, it was painted really differently. It was painted as a political struggle. The far right was in and they were saying stuff like, make Wales white again. How do you feel about how...

the story of your town was told in the news disgusting I think it was so wrong it was made out that we were all racist people didn't want immigrants and it was far from the truth you know we were like genuine people with genuine concerns what people don't realize is that 95 people lost their jobs overnight how was that fair on them when far-right groups saw this was happening and the

They came into the town and they sort of like piggybacked on the protest and a lot of them, they made it about race and they made it about migrants. But they succeeded because the problem we had is we were screaming to ask them a government for help. There was no help.

Nathan, in the same way that I learnt from Jess, I learnt from your experiences of being a truck driver. You said many times on the show that if a refugee was found in your lorry, you would be fined £10,000 per refugee. And that is incredibly messed up because, as you said, it could completely ruin your livelihood.

This is now what I've been taught is called the hostile environment policy, where the government makes normal people like Nathan responsible for policing migration and punishes normal people for it, which then obviously turns those people against refugees and against migrants. It's not just my problem. It's thousands of truck drivers that are coming through.

Every day it's a problem, if you know what I mean. It's like, one of my friends, he's actually just been recently caught with, I think he's had nine and he's in court for a £111,000 fine. That's a scandal, wow. See, it's just wrong that though, because that's not his fault. At the end of the day, what does he do? Like, if one of my lads up at back doors and they went, get out, and they went, no.

What do you do? Do you know what I mean? You can't police it. I think that's the reason why, and I know, and I must admit this, it's got to be a good 97% of the haulage drivers in this country that make that journey hate them. And it's not just that. The reason why you get so much hate around the people trying to cross is

is the means and ways of how they try and cross as well. So they will do anything in their power to stop that lorry. But for a Brickford windscreen, because they're that desperate to do the crossing...

It is the governments that are like, "Oh, it's your problem. Oh, we'll blame lorry drivers." But then again, it's also the people coming over, they're doing the damage as well. Why I blame government is because among the people desperate, desperate to cross, there are really good people who have literally no other way to cross and whom it is a life or death situation. And often the person who they're putting most at risk, I mean,

always is themselves when they are smuggling onto these lorries every time they're risking death. And it is cruel of a government that creates no legal and safe routes for almost any refugees than penalising not just the people themselves,

doing the dangerous journeys, but also the truckers. Another version, another way the government does this is if you work at a refuge for domestic abuse and a woman comes and needs refuge, the government has said, you now have to check their migration status. Because if you let them in, if you give them safety, if you take them off the street...

and they don't have proper papers, they're illegal, then you can be penalised. And so they are trying to make, you know, people who work in domestic abuse refuges, who are probably really, really compassionate people, say no and turn a woman out. That is just like another example of the same policy that they're using to fine truckers. So for me, the baddie in the story is the government. Yeah, no, I agree with that. It's governments that are just fighting each other all the time about this problem.

But it affects the economy so much. Everything you see by your touch has been up back of a lorry at least once in its life. All these now are charging six, seven grand because of just the damages that's always happening. So they're putting their insurances in place. So not only governments now are then turning around and saying to the migrants, you're not coming in, but then the people in Calais are then smashing the trucks up, which all these are putting money up.

It's just costing everybody so much money. The way we do it doesn't work. The system we have doesn't work for anyone. No, it doesn't. But Nathan, there was a very powerful moment on the show where you spoke to another truck driver. And by that point, your views had changed. But the truck driver you were speaking to still had the views that you had at the beginning of the show. Can you tell us about having that conversation?

Yeah, so, Big John. Love him. I've actually spoke to him after the show. He added me on Facebook. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was talking to him literally about four days ago, funny enough.

And I was saying, he goes, I get everything that you're saying, but I'm still sat on fence with you. And I was like, there is good in there. There's a lot of bad. I'm not going to, I'll never deny that. But there's still a lot of bad in this country. I'm not saying everybody's bad. But talking to him, it was just like watching me and it was like a so surreal moment. They were like...

I think that's when I said to him, I'm like, I ain't got media in me. I ain't got the news. I ain't got Facebook. I've just watched it from my eyes. And it's helped me so much to understand it more for the people that are absolutely desperate for it and just want a better life. And I remember one night just being laid in bed thinking, I couldn't live like this. I'd be off. Like, there's no way on God's green earth I could ever live

Like this. And I wouldn't expect my family to live like this. That, I just thought, said so much. Because, to be honest, the whole reason that Helena and I set up this podcast is because we were sick of working for these news organisations and just seeing how much their priority is to make money. And so they will write the most extreme, scary version of a story, version of reality, because it's going to get them loads of clicks.

And for me, having come from working in the camps to going to a news outlet that was telling the story in a way that just was so different to how it felt, I couldn't deal with it. Now that you've seen what it looks like, do you think that what you read about or see about in the media is accurate? No, I don't believe anything. Nothing. I genuinely know.

Propaganda. Every single headline is like the opposite of what it means in my eyes. They're just feeding you what they want you to hear. So it's like you make your own judgments. And it's like I always say, somebody like watching the show, because I've got quite a lot of hate from this. So I always said to people now, you've got two ears and one mouth.

You should listen twice as hard as you could speak. I do when he says that. I'm like, oh, who's he going to say this to next? Oh, Christ. It is true, though. It's true. That bloody saying, honestly, when you say that. Yeah, I know. Well, like, most people or most organisations have an agenda, whereas we didn't. Like, when we saw each other, we didn't have an agenda. None of us were making money. So we just interacted with each other normally. And it's so different to buying a paper or listening to a politician when they, everything they say, they say it for a reason.

And another thing which I think people don't know is that we actually weren't allowed to have our mobile phones when we went away. I couldn't believe how much I was glued to my phone until I did that. It was mental. Like, when I first got my phone back, I turned my phone on and it just crashed. It was something ridiculous, like 1,300 text messages that I had to go through. And I was like...

shit, how much do I use my phone? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I couldn't believe it. Do you know what the funny thing about this whole journey and all is? And it makes me laugh, this. When I did the journey, because we went radio silent, we didn't put out on social media or anything like that. Did people not ask you where you were? Yeah. Quite a lot of people sent me theories. Some people thought I was doing Love Island or something. I was thinking... Do you know what people thought I was? Where? In prison. LAUGHTER

I'm not even joking you. I had so many messages saying, oh, you've been released now. I've been in prison. There was a massive rumour going around that I ripped Nick and I couldn't stop laughing. You were in the prison of me.

Me and Jess. Yeah. Listen, I'd rather no fucking time than that. Jesus Christ. Listen, it's so sweet to see your guys' friendship now. It really is. So I want to ask you, what was your first impression of Matilda? No. And what is your impression of her now? Jess, you go. So when I first met Matilda, first, second was good.

because I just remember, because we were all in the same position, nervous, I turned round and I looked at her and she smiled and that was it. I didn't know what team she was on, left, right, I didn't know if she was racist or whatever at that point. And then I think, I don't know, maybe the first hour, I was like, here we go. But truth is, it's far from it, you know. So you were like, oh, here we go, she's going to...

I don't know, here we go, we've got a proper lefty on our hands, you know, somebody's here to dictate, tell us what to do. But no, it wasn't. I judged her. You thought I was going to, like...

tell you what to do, what you should think. How I should think and how I should feel, you know. But, no, far from the truth. And Nathan? Well... Oh, God. I'm looking forward to this. We're on Black Cliffs of Dover, aren't we now? And all I remember seeing is...

this big, stupid pink suitcase thing, right? And this is all about Matilda. And I looked and you've got your curly hair thing that you have. And then you had like the Aladdin style trousers. And I thought, oh, she's going to shag all trees here, isn't she? And I thought, there's no way on God's green earth that me and her are going to get on. And then you spoke and you're so well-spoken. And I thought,

No, it's just not, it's never going to fucking happen this. Like, we're going to argue so much because I know what I'm like. I'm as blunt as fuck. And I thought I might be a bit too much for you. So I curved it back a bit.

And then I got to know you and I swear to God, I love you with all my heart now. And I've told you this, if you ever need anything, I will be on that car and I'll be straight out M1 and I'll come and sort it for you. You are like one of the Earth's nice people. Don't get me wrong, you're a knob and I'll admit that all day long. I knew he couldn't just remain nice. He had to add the knob in. He's gone all yet. I was just about to say, I was just about to tear up before the knob popped.

It's like I said, I think I put it on Instagram. It was a moment when we were in Lampedusa and you got really upset. And you know, when we're at the graveyard. This wasn't in the scene, but we went to a graveyard and it was full of the unmarked graves of unidentified refugees who drowned at sea. So I thought, yeah, that even like now, I found that really hard. I think it was that moment because you,

I can remember just looking at you and you were just so upset. And we were getting to me because even I think I had a tear at that point. And I thought, I just put my arm around you and I was like, we're all just humans here. Do you know what I mean? Like, we come from worlds apart. I mean, like the day before, we just had the argument on beach.

But we're sharing the same emotions, so we can't be that much different. Even though we are chalk and cheese to so much extent, at that moment I thought, I need to be there now, and I'll just give you a hug.

And it was like... One of them things I'll just never forget either. Yeah, I really needed that hug. It was a good hug. That's really lovely. And now I have to ask Matilda, what was your first impression of Jess and Nathan and what do you feel now? I guess...

I always like see the good in people. I saw immediately that you didn't come from bad places, even if I disagreed with you. I actually saw like good people, people with feelings, good people, compassionate people who were going to be real and who were going to take, who didn't think their minds were going to change, but were going to take what happened at face value. And I thought I...

I'm not going to hate this. It's going to be difficult because we are going to be arguing a lot, but I am not going to hate this. I'm not going to hate being with you guys at all. Soppy bastard. Yeah. I mean, I think really the whole point of this episode is to show that we don't have to be so polarised. We need to apply the lessons learnt from this documentary to our lives. We need to fight...

dehumanization of refugees and migrants and people who are other. And we need to talk to people, not shout at them. Yes. And we need to unite together against the people who are really making life difficult for everybody. And actually, because I think like a lot of the people who listen to this podcast probably are on the left or would identify as on the left. And it is a massive problem, often the way that people on the left try and push messages. Yeah.

I thought, you know, I'm not going to change your mind. Telling you that you're wrong when I don't even know your life experiences. If I served any value on the journey for you in the same way you did for me, it's rather just by listening and understanding where you're coming from. Thinking, okay, you have this problem, I have this problem. Like, how can we solve our problems together? You were good. Yeah.

I do have a question for both of you, which is now if you're ever with somebody, whether it's a family member, friend or just general person, and they have very strong anti-immigration or anti-migration or anti-refugee views, what are those conversations like now? It depends on the conversation. I just, at the moment, a lot of them I have to walk away from because I just can't deal with it. You know, I'm in a town where it's a little bit different now.

So some of the conversations I can't have with people and some people won't understand. And that's all right. With me, I've got it quite, I've had it quite a lot. So obviously I drive taxis as well. And Barnes is not that big. So as soon as I pull up, people jump in and they say like, oh my God, you've been on that show. And I'm like, yeah. And they go, I fucking don't agree with it and this or that. So then what I do is I try and explain to them why they're doing it.

But I always think this now, if they're turning around and saying, nah, fuck him, this, that, other, I'm not going to argue with you because you're not ready to understand it. I think that it happened to me at the right time where I knew I had to be open-minded and I knew I had to listen. If you can watch the entire show and you have an opinion at the end, I'm not going to change that now because I am being able to change it throughout the show. Welcome to my lifelong mission. Yeah.

Yeah, like, Matilda, you just keep going here like some little gerbil on a wheel, do you know what I mean? Whereas, like, me and Jess are like, oh, bollocks to you then if you're not fucking listening. You know what? And I will every day for the rest of my life. No, but that's not a bad thing. Matilda, if we didn't have people like you, the world would be fucked, right? Oh, it'd be fantastic. LAUGHTER

We got there in the end. We got there in the end. And I wouldn't change it though because at the end of the day, I think this is like me and you are the polar opposites. It's 100% nailed on we are polar opposites and to show that by four weeks together we can still chill out and we can still have a drink and we can still have a laugh and...

Everybody's human. For instance, when we went down to Premiere, we just sat in held hands all the way through that show. That's a moment I'll never forget. Me and you have come so far in this little journey. I know it's about immigration and stuff, but it's more than just immigration, because it's taking, like we were saying, six people with so many different opinions and so many different lives. And number one, I thought, oh, fucking hell, we're going to argue like fuck here all the time, and I ain't got time for that, because I just called people a cunt. But...

It just shows that, like, you understood me and I understood you. And I'll never not appreciate that, you know what I mean? Never in a million years. Same.

Jess and Nathan, thank you so much for joining us. We always ask our guests if there's anything else they'd like to say or anything else they'd like to plug. So we'll start with Jess first. Yeah, I'd very much like to say I am single, single, single. I am single. I've got nobody coming in my inbox. Single, single. There we go. That's it. DM Jess.

If you are a lesbian. Yeah, lesbians only. Any lesbians out there, she's a catch. And Nathan? So I've just started up my new HGV driving school. So that lands on 2nd of May. So if you need a lorry licence. Here's your man. Hit me up.

Thank you for listening. If you want to support MediaStorm, you can do so on Patreon for less than a cup of coffee a month. The link is in the show notes and a special shout out to everyone in our Patreon community already. We appreciate you so much. And if you enjoyed this episode, please send it to someone. Word of mouth is still the best way to grow a podcast. So please do tell your friends.

You can follow us on social media at Matilda Mal, at Helena Wadia and follow the show at MediaStormPod. MediaStorm is an award-winning podcast produced by Helena Wadia and Matilda Mallinson. The music is by Sam Fire.