The Truth About Medusa
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Hello, my lovely Betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets, but it is of an adult spicy nature, this podcast. So despite the fact that we've been going for three years, and I'm sure that people must know what we're doing here by now, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. And now, fair dues, we have warned you. So on with the show.

I know this isn't the most glamorous of meeting places, but we're here in a cave. In ancient Greece, so it's got that going for it, but it's still a cave. But we are here for a very good reason. Somewhere in here is none other than Medusa. Have you seen her? Well, if the myth is to be believed, she would turn you to stone if you had, so I guess not.

But has anyone actually spoken to Medusa? Heard her side of the story? Have they? Hell, I'd love to sit down with her and find out about how she ended up in this predicament before that knobhead Perseus shows up and starts trying to be a hero. What a twat he was. Let's go deeper into the cave and see if we can find her.

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Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex, scandal and society with me, Kate Lister. Greek myths were a fabulous oral tradition that tell us a lot about fantastical characters, but they do actually tell us quite a lot about the world that they were told in. Their values, their fears, the fact that nobody should be shagging their relatives, all kinds of useful things. And Medusa is a prime example of this.

It is an insane and bonkers story featuring snake hair and winged boots and a helmet of invisibility. But it's also a tale and a portrayal of women's sexuality and victim shaming. Joining me today to explore all of this and the lasting legacy of Medusa is friend of the show and all-round fabulous person, Jasmine Elmett. All right, everyone, have you got your mirrors ready? Then let's do it.

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Jasmine Elmire.

you doing I'm good thank you I'm back again so I didn't mess up the first one so that's a winner you were fabulous I had so much fun talking to you how's the book going when we last met you your book goddess of a thousand faces was just about it was crowning it was getting ready to be born what a disgusting image sorry sorry um yeah now all I can think about is the image you were fully dilated yeah let's not let's not

that book's gone now. Yeah. It's out in the world. It was born in this really weird description that you're going with. Yeah. So it's gone really well. I'm actually, you know what it's like with, uh, with authors. Uh,

That book's gone and flown out into the world. Now I'm on the second book. Oh, well done, mate. Which officially got announced today. So I can actually say words about it. Can you tell us the words? I can. The words are, it's called Slay and it's about female dragon slayers and their symbolism of dragons. Oh, fabulous.

Yes, they do exist. I know you're like, do they exist? They do exist. No, I believe you entirely. I believe everything you tell me. Yeah. Oh, good. That's a good career. Just make stuff up then.

Well, but we are here to talk about, she's not really a dragon, but she's certainly a monster, Medusa. Yeah, well, actually, she's sort of like a sort of dragon, because when there are serpents involved in Greek mythology, we consider them a dragon of some sort. Yeah, so she's sort of like borderline. If you've got a snake, you've got a dragon. That's the sort of way that the Greeks approach it. Oh.

Oh, right. Yeah. Okay. Well, see, I'm learning things already. Right. What do I know about Medusa? And for anyone else that's listening, I can't imagine there's anyone listening going, I don't know what Medusa is. But just in case, Lady with the Snakes, can you elaborate more on that? Yes. Well, I mean, Medusa is very famous. Image is probably what more people might

pop into the head, but I don't know if people know her story. So she was a very beautiful maiden and priestess of the goddess Athena. And there are different versions of the myth, as always with Greek myths, right? Different versions. But mainly, Poseidon, the sea god, violates her

in the temple of Athena. Right, okay. Yeah, it's definitely a fucking hell moment. And if you want a double fucking hell, you should have saved it, really. Athena then punishes Medusa, not Poseidon. Double fucking hell. Wow. Double fucking hell by transforming her into the monster that we see, the sort of snaky-haired, scary monster. And famously, obviously, she is this woman that has these snaky hair, but also if she looks at you, you turn to stone.

Yeah. Isn't that awful? It's just terrible, isn't it? It's a terrible origin story, isn't it?

Before we get into how that develops, I'm hoping that you're going to say yes, but I think I might know how this is going to go. Is there anything in the sources that you were encouraged to think, well, that was a really unfair thing to have done? What a mean, that was completely unjustified in what you did? Or is it sort of just accepted as like, yeah, that sounds about right? I bet you can answer your own question there, really. Yeah, I know. It's the ancient world. It's a patriarchy. What do you think happened? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, this is going to be the least informative thing. Like, guess for yourself. But because it's a patriarchy, the perspective here is not usually in favour of Medusa. That's not to say that you can read some more, slightly more sympathetic, perhaps, viewpoints. Like Ovid, maybe a little bit more sympathetic. Let's not sugarcoat it. The blame here is mainly on Medusa in antiquity. That's the way it's...

It's perceived, which is a real, well, I still can't get my head around it, even though I'm an expert in this area. I still can't understand, even though I know the historical context. It just seems completely, just completely inhumane to ever think like that, regardless of what's going on in society. It just seems mad to me.

But it also tracks with Greek myths in general because Medusa's not the only character in their pantheon to have been assaulted by a god and then they're the ones to have been punished. I can't remember names, but someone got turned into a tree and somebody else. All of this stuff is never very justifiable, but...

So she was a priestess and a beautiful priestess. Yeah, I mean, in most of the sources, she's really beautiful and dedicated to Athena as a priestess.

I mean, in terms of in Greek, in the Greek view, like the perfect type of woman. Yeah. You know, she looks beautiful. She is, you know, religious in the sense that she's, you know, dedicating herself to a goddess. She's doing all the tick, tick, tick things that you should do as a Greek woman, really. Until...

this thing happens the majority of it is Poseidon forcing himself upon her not that she willingly does that yeah yeah but yeah you're right absolutely it is the narrative that that the onus is on the woman to protect herself her chastity she's the one that's in the wrong which is yeah I know I mean I think you've done the noise let's just leave the noise there that's it just

The thing about these kind of stories and myths is they are passed along orally, which makes it very difficult to trace. But what are some of the earliest written accounts that we have of Medusa? Yeah, totally right. So it is important to note that it is an oral tradition. So I think people get quite interested in the earliest source material and just date it to that. But it is older than that, definitely. How old can't tell you. But these are originally stories that people are telling each other across campfires in

in houses, what have you. So remember that because I think it's quite important. But the earliest sources, Hesiod, which is sort of 8th century. So in terms of what we have for source material is along the earliest. So it's an old, old myth for the Greeks. It's one of the earlier documented myths. And am I right in thinking she had sisters? Because in my recounting of this myth, which admittedly is based on, I don't know what it's based on. It's probably not based on anything sensible. But

But did the sisters also have snakes for hair? They can't have been assaulted by Poseidon in a temple as well. No, no. That's the Gorgons that you're thinking of. Yes, thank you. Yes, the Gorgons. And they are three... She's one of them, right? Three powerful kind of winged creature things, essentially. So they don't have...

The snaky bit, that's Medusa. Oh, right. But the other two are essentially kind of, you know, if we think of Medusa more as a mortal, they are more immortal because they have this kind of powerful ability almost as a trio. Yeah.

But Medusa has her own storyline that's kind of more specific. The other two are mentioned and they're important, but they're less important than Medusa. It's the story of Medusa that the Greeks really kind of focus in on.

So we don't hear as much about the Gorgons. No, and I don't suppose they give us any details on, was Medusa a sister to the Gorgons before she got turned into a monster? Or why was she going to work in a temple if she was a monster? This is probably just one of those Greek things where they've just mashed it all together and gone, look, stop asking us questions about this. Yeah.

Yeah, you're right. I think when you try and trace like a timeline like that and you try and think of how a storyline emerges, it's quite hard. Are they sisters first? I mean, I think most of the time she becomes lumped in with these guys as a trio, really. It's like merged. As their sisters. It's all kind of murky. I think that's the best way. Yeah.

And I know it's annoying for us modern people who like a full plot line sorted out and then we can kind of follow it and it's got a nice trajectory. But these things are like, you think of mythology, it's live, isn't it? It's almost like a living creature. It's always changing itself. It's a bit like Medusa. Now, the most immediate story that people think of with Medusa is the one with Perseus. So can you tell us that story and where does that come

come from? So we'll flesh out her background story because it wasn't just that she was horribly assaulted and then she was punished and she has sisters of questionable origin. There's a whole story that emerges with Medusa. She didn't stop there. No, and again, this is another, I would say, kind of Greek myth trope that we always get where you can't have a baddie, a monster, especially a girly one, that isn't going to get taken out by a male hero. So it's part of the heroic cycle of

So that's why we need him, right? So as expected, there's a monster and along comes Perseus, who is the son of Zeus. And his job is to behead Medusa. But he gets help from the gods, as is often the way. So Athena gives him a shield and Hermes gives him these little winged sandals. And Hades gives him this sort of hat of invincibility. Invisibility, not invincibility. I was going to say that's handy as well. Invisibility. Invisibility.

And he goes off to find Medusa at the edge of the world and beheads... In his mind and her own fucking business, by the way. He's just knocking about on the edge of the world. Just knocking about on the edge of the world, as usual. And he beheads her. How does he do this? Everyone loves this one, don't they? Because it's in everything. It's in all of the movies and the books and everything. He uses the reflection of his shield so he doesn't have to look directly at her to sort of find out where she is and then lop it off.

head flinging in the dust. Do you like that? Rolling around in the dust too much? It's all right. I mean, it's a very dramatic story, isn't it? And if you're making a film of it, that's your money shot, isn't it? That Purchase turns up

He cuts her head off. We don't ask any questions about why this little upstart has just basically broken into her house and cut her head off, where she's still the monster. What did she do to him at all? Nothing. Yeah, I can help you with that as well. Oh, go on, tell me. Well, I mean, like I said, yes, I can see from our perspective that that don't sound fair. But in terms of Greek myth,

This needs to happen because remember that, well, I know we're going to get into this, but what does Medusa symbolize to the Greeks? And when you have a monster of any sorts, we'll get into a nuance in a bit, but when you have a monster of any sorts, that monster needs to be vanquished by a hero, usually a bloke.

And so this needs to happen because of that. But just a little side point, because people don't always know this, but when Medusa's head gets knocked off and she starts bleeding, what pops out of her decapitated, well, from her decapitated body, I guess, is the winged horse Pegasus and this giant called Creosote, which we don't really see anything else of ever. But you get Pegasus out of it. Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I know. And that is the reaction I wanted, Kate. Like, right. Okay. Mm.

Right. Why? Okay. What's that about? In myth, though, as everything is always cyclical, there's always like these stories evolve. You've got as well, what I find interesting, Pegasus later is involved in the killing of another dragon, the chimera.

rode by Bellerophon the hero Bellerophon so it's like when you look at dragon stories I know you're thinking this ain't a dragon but like I said to you before to Greeks if it's got snakes in it it's dragons to some degree they tend to have like this evolution they pop up in the next one like the sequel there's like you kind of get that character that carries on it's like oh a pegasus is carrying on to now kill and help kill another dragon it always keeps evolving and moving so it's quite it's quite a little family often of dodgy dragons that are connected in this thing

I'll be back with Jasmine and Medusa after this short break.

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There's a lot of symbolism in this Medusa thing. You can just pull it apart with so many different things. What is your take on it? Because you've got, she's a woman, she's quite clearly a woman. She was once beautiful. There is a kind of like a weird sense that she's avenging herself, right?

on all mankind and then there's the snakes as well and the fact that her head is decapitated whenever a sword turns up me being the pervert I am I'm thinking phallus like the fact that Perseus decapitates her with his sword what's your take on who this character is?

I mean, that is really nuanced and there's loads of levels to this, which is fascinating about her. But, you know, you just said about the sword and the phallus. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's all sorts of sexual imagery in all of this. So I'm going to start with my favorite, though, which is the furthest, most mad one, really. I'm not saying I agree with this, but I love it, which is Freud. Freud wrote an essay on this when he was in the 20s. And it was obviously, you know what he's like.

So there's this idea that Medusa, the thing about Medusa, obviously, is that she turns men to stone. Often it's men in mythology. There's no examples of women. Men to stone. And that could be some kind of euphemism for erection. As well as her hair, her snaky hair, representing female pubic region, shall we call it. So it's literally what happens when a vagina looks at a penis, technically.

He did take a lot of cocaine. I don't know what he was doing. It's weird that you'd bring that one up because I was reading about that one not so long ago and I was trying to make sense of it because another idea he has about Medusa is that her face or a severed head represents the site of castration.

Yes, exactly. And you kind of, I'm sorry, could you just go over that one more time, Freud, just from the top? I don't really get what you're talking about. But he had this thing about castration anxiety, didn't he? I mean, who isn't anxious about castration? But what did he mean about that?

There's no one out there like, I'm fine with this. You know when you're at school and your maths teacher says, show me you're working. I want to know what his working is. I want to know the steps that he gets to to get to that conclusion. And the problem is there aren't any. It's just like, oh, maybe this is this. Freud is a really interesting bit. I'm like, is that what the Greeks are thinking? No, but I think we can definitely take a great number of kind of

like male fears about sexual female sexual power from Medusa that we can almost certainly take from the original myth and the original Greek context you know we've got to remember that this is a very beautiful woman that is punished for her sexual power and

And, you know, from her perspective, no men are even allowed to look at her. You're not allowed to look at her because you will turn to stone. So, I mean, I'm not saying she was vain like this, but for a beautiful woman...

That is a really awful thing in a Greek context. I mean, maybe even in the modern context, I don't know. It depends how you feel it, right? So she's damned to be this monster, like you say, chucked on the edge of the world, ripped out from her, you know, kind of life as it was. And then men aren't allowed to look at her and she's utterly isolated, right?

And I think there's so much as well that we can look into about victim blaming and that culture, which I know we can look at from a modern point of view, but in an ancient point of view, it just shows you how horrific the attitudes are to these sorts of issues. It's on the woman and it's the woman's fault. And that was often seen as the case, even in Greek society. So, you know, people don't know that a lot about Greek society, how

women were very much you know kind of closed off like they lived in they lived upstairs in their own quarters they had to be escorted by men obviously they don't have any of the powers that that we share today you know be able to vote and all that none of that none of that you go out they're often kind of covered in headdresses and stuff they're very chaste kind of appearance and you know you're guarding your virginity and it's your job almost to look after all of that

which is ridiculous. And so the Medusa story is very much a really important part of that. And I think the fact that she becomes a monster shows you how the Greeks are really afraid of a woman who has any sexual power and really wants to show what can happen to a woman that has sexual power. I think what Freud was getting at in his odd Freud-y kind of a way was

is it was a very fancy way of saying that Medusa is an emasculating figure. I think with all of his like, oh, her face and the severed head represents the vagina and that's going to sever a penis and blah, blah, blah. I think that kind of what's underneath that is that she is an emasculating figure. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I don't know if that, the reason I'm hesitating is because I don't know, maybe this is my modern bias. I'm just trying to like,

see if I can just shoot that to the side a little bit but there's something about this that I think is so much more nuanced than that even in the Greek thinking I'm not as comfortable saying yeah that's right it's not that I don't think it's right I think that we're taking something away from her that makes me uncomfortable because it's not just about her emasculating men this is also about some people talk about this as what power she does continue to hold on to and

and how there is power in her ability to turn men into stone, you know? Yeah. So I think this is where, when we're looking at it from a more modern point of view, we get, we get many layers of meaning. And I think that's why she's been so taken into sort of the modern mindset, you know, kind of imagination today. And,

and become many different things. Is she emasculating? I mean, yeah, maybe, but I don't know. I just see her as more powerful than that. I just don't know if that just typecasts her into something. One of Freud's many problems is that he can never see outside of the... Many problems. Listen to me, Mouthenoff, telling Freud where he's got things wrong. We're going to do it anyway. He can never...

quite relate to a woman's experience because it's not his own. He can only understand of a vagina as not being a penis. He can only understand a woman as not being a man. So his interpretation of Medusa as emasculating, again, it's centering the male experience within that of like, well, men are very scared of her. So that must be, nevermind the fact that, well, men did that to her. Yeah, I get you. You know, I get it. But what I think

is really interesting is that like Medusa has a lot of power like these men want to look at her because yeah they go to her right either she was beautiful or because she's a monster either way whichever part of the story people want to look at her men let's say men want to look at her and so where's the power then

Because she's drawing their gaze and then she looks back at them. They have to look at her for shit to get real. Which isn't an active thing to do. No.

Yeah. So, but I just think that there's that kind of interaction. Yeah, yeah. It's a two-way thing. Like that man might have some aspect, but then she's looking back at him and there's this kind of two-way thing, right? And it's all about this kind of, I guess, sexualized interplay between men and women. And you're right, it absolutely centers in the male perspective about this and the male fears about these women. But at the core of that is the fear of

women that hold their sexual power at the core of that and what they become. They become monstrous. Remember, a monster is something that we're terrified of, we don't like, and we want to chuck at the edge of the world. Remember, in Greek myth, most monsters live, not all of them, but a lot of them live at the edges of the known world, edges of civilization, because what we're saying is you have been ostracized to get out.

You need to be over there because you're not part of your things that we don't really want to miss. It's similar to like, you know, Freud will love it, right? It's things that we suppress in our subconscious. It's like, let's get it over there. It's not, it's not something that's around us. It's a way.

And that's what I mean about being nuanced and complicated because it's personal as well to an individual experience. Because if I could turn people to stone just by looking at them and had snakes for hair, I wouldn't be fucking living on an island somewhere. I would be marching my way into civilization. What are you going to do? That just says a lot about you, doesn't it really?

That just says a lot about you. Heading straight to the Bank of England. What are you going to do? I'm a bit scared that they ever give you the nuclear codes. What are you going to do with them? It's that's your attitude. It's a bit gung-ho, isn't it?

Let's talk about the snakes though. What are the snakes? Because it could have been anything, but that is one of her defining features, isn't it? The snakes for hair. Few layers again. You'll love this because there's always a few layers. I think on one hand, there's this idea that she had beautiful hair and that was one of her best qualities on a practical level. So let's turn it into something yuck. Then you've got the idea of the snake and how it can be connected to both things.

Female fertility sometimes, but also the phallus again.

It being a bit like a schlong, whatever word you want to use it. Little snake in the pants, whatever you want to think about it as. Then you've got this other layer that she belongs to a wider family of dragon-like creatures. So like the dracontes are this kind of like anything that's got a serpent is part of this. So then she belongs to this kind of group of like uber monsters that

that we see in all over mythology. So you've got like, you know, you've got Scylla, you've got Typhon, you've got, oh my God, Hydra, you've got all these different, you know, dragons. So in lots of ways, remember that when these myths are being told, that symbolism would then echo in the minds of the Greeks and they go, oh, she's one of them, which is like,

which is a bad monster. So we're getting into that as well. There's this idea, I guess, as well, like snakes have venom, they bite, they hiss. And that is a kind of like, I guess, a very visceral feeling of being around that kind of fear. It's like the real feeling of the fear of being around this woman. So there's quite a lot of stuff in it in terms of symbolism, just the snakes on their own. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, Medusa, she went through a lot, but I have noticed in recent years, I say recent years, it's probably been maybe sort of like since the 80s, 90s, maybe even before that, that she is being reclaimed more and more by feminists. How are they reading her story? Yeah, I mean, that's one of the most...

I think this is great. I mean, there's been obviously a few mythical retellings around Medusa. So Natalie Haynes wrote Stone Blind a few years back, I think. Rosie Hewlett wrote about Medusa, where they're obviously centering on the story of Medusa. And I think after the Me Too movement, there's a lot of interest in her as a figure of subversion, where a victim is able to reclaim her power.

Did you see Rihanna dressed up as Medusa for a magazine, Vogue or GQ or something like that? I can't remember when it was. If you Google Rihanna and Medusa, you'll find it. So there's a lot about what does it look like when women choose to take a figure? I mean, this is a movement anyway. I'm not involved in this while I do my writing, right? But what does it mean when a woman can reclaim this figure as an empowering experience?

image not as a victim and as as we have discussed her in a kind of more historic sense so there's been loads of interest in her that's great i mean it's really what we're trying to say is stuff the patriarchy that's the bottom line it's interesting that medusa never really has a voice in in the myth does she i'm not aware of her getting any lines in in any of the story

The women never do. And that's an important point, Kate. You're right. This is why there's so much interest in giving, especially in literature, giving these women a voice, giving them a chance to voice. I mean, imagined, of course, but giving themselves a voice. So, yeah, you're right. That is not a thing we don't hear.

in mythology very often, the stories from the women themselves. Usually, if you're going to get that, you get them in Greek tragedy, in the plays, you might get women then, but not necessarily Medusa. But for example, Euripides is Medea. So we hear from Medea, obviously, in that. But remember, it's written by bloody Euripides, isn't it? And it's for a largely male audience. So even then, it's not, you know, it's not like a free flowing voice. So yeah, you're right. It's about reclaiming

that too isn't it you can see why her story would hit such a note especially post me too the fact that like she was so unfairly treated quite obviously and then she becomes this like avenging well is she an avenging character because she sort of just lives on her island and as you said people keep coming to her so if you don't want to get killed leave her alone she's she's

I love to, I feel like you just want to be, I feel like you want to knock off to a little place on the edge of the world and be left alone. And if teenagers kept turning up to try and cut my head off, I'd turn them into stone as well, quite frankly. And, and there's not a court in the land that would convict me. Yeah.

I was going to ask you, do you think that Medusa is an empowering story after everything that you've read about her and you know about her? Because it's easy to reclaim her without really looking into the background of it and she's become more of a symbol than an actual story. But what do you think? Is she an empowering character? I think that's really interesting. I don't know that I'd call her empowering, actually. But I think...

I'm going to think of a really exciting adjective now to describe what I actually would say. But basically, I really like how we can take figures from the ancient world and re-examine them through a new lens to learn something about ourselves. So I love that myth can have these nuanced layers that continue to keep on giving. And I think her one is an excellent, excellent example of that.

And that's what I find about, if you want to call that empowering, then for some people that would be empowering. That experience of doing that would be empowering. I think for me, I don't know if it's just because I'm a geek or something, but I just think it's just really fascinating. Yeah. I mean, she's that, isn't she? She's fascinating. Yeah, there we go. There's one. Fascinating. I don't know. I love that it keeps it alive. Like these are old stories that have like long gone. You know, we're not,

But we're still engaging with it. And that's what myth is about. Like, it doesn't need to die off and be in the past. It can keep evolving. And I love that about... And I think she just is one of the best examples of that. So that's why I think she's up the top there on my, like, Hall of Fame of, I don't know, cool myths or whatever. A legend. And so are you, Jasmine. Thank you so much for coming back to talk to me again. If people...

If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? They can get me on the old Insta. I've changed my new handle. It's now at history underscore with underscore soul, which doesn't sound very easy to say, does it? So just write my name, Jasmine Elmarine, and that'll come up. But that's because that's my brand of history, history that we can feel in our hearts, not just our heads. So it's history with soul. Oh, I like that.

Oh, nice. Will you come back again and talk to us about more myths? I shall. Thank you so much. You've been amazing. Thank you so much for listening and thanks to Jasmine for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. Coming up, we've got the first episode

This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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