The Truth About The Minotaur
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Hello, my lovely Bertwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Bertwixt the Sheets. And this is a naughty podcast, quite frankly. We do like getting our hands dirty in historical smut around here. So I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adults. So listen, you should be an adult too. And if you can't tick all of that off your list, then sod off. We don't want you around here anyway. Right, for the rest of you, on with the show.

We are deep underground here beneath the Palace of Knossos in the Bronze Age of Crete, and I am lost. Yes, I know it's a labyrinth and they're not meant to be easy, but there's not even a phone signal down here for me to be able to cheat my way out of it. Somewhere through these passageways lurks a half-man, half-bull monster of ancient Greek mythology, the Minotaur.

And I'm looking for him because I want to hear his side of this utterly mad story. And it's a story that at the heart of it explains how humans grapple with primal and forbidden desires, which frankly, I am all about. You want to find out more? Well, then we've got to find him first.

What do you look for in a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I feel so done. Goodness has nothing to do with it, do I? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex, scandal and society with me, Kate Lister.

Greek mythology is pretty mental at the best of times, not to mention controversial. See our episode from earlier this year on the truth behind Medusa for more on that. When the ancient Greeks decided to explore their baser desires, they did not hold back. Which brings us to today's episode, where I once again talk with the fabulous historian and author Jasmine Elmer to get to the heart of the Minotaur myth and find out what is it really all about.

Tuggers and bullhorns at the ready. Let's do this. Hello and welcome back to The Twigs The Sheets. It's only Jasmine Elmer. How are you doing? I feel like I'm a co-host. I love you to be a co-host.

Because I'm back again. So it's very exciting to be here. Back once again, bringing your knowledge of the ancient world and the ancient Greeks, and this time, the Minotaur. I know. One of my genuine, genuine favourites. Oh, is it? Most of what I know about this myth is based on my watching Jim Henson's Greek myths as a child, which I loved. Are the best things on the planet with a dog? Were you a big fan too? Of course. Oh!

Of course. And the storyteller as well. Yeah, all of it. Just all of it. I loved all of that. So good. Now, you have studied this in depth and you are a classicist scholar. I have watched something with puppets in it. So just give me...

A quick rundown. Who is the Minotaur? So the Minotaur is a half-bull, half-man creature from Greek mythology. Does it specify which half? The head of a bull. Right. The body of a man. I really feel like it's my favourite because it's the most messed up backstory I think we've got in Greek mythology. It's...

It's top level. Top level messed up. I bet none of this made it into Jim Henson's version for children either. No. Go on then. You disabuse me of this. The Minotaur is from the island of Crete. So King Minos, who people might have heard of, is the king of that place. And he refuses to sacrifice a beautiful bull to the gods. You're not allowed to do that because that's bad. You've got to do what you're supposed to do. Worship the gods and do what they say. Oh.

Okay. So as a punishment, the goddess Aphrodite makes his wife Pasiphae fall in love with a bull. And then she has a baby little bull thing called the Minotaur. And you might be asking me, Jasmine, what happened in between that? And that's the bit that's my favourite bit. How did...

Pasiphae get with the bull that's the question i mean that's what you're all thinking that's the question yes so Pasiphae gets the help of died the famous inventor Daedalus who king minus has got imprisoned basically uh on crete i mean imagine this series first of all before i carry on amazing series and she goes to Daedalus and says i need to you know with the ball

How do I do it? And he says, I'll make you a cow to get into. Like some fashioned thing. Then you crawl into it and then you do your thing and then it's all sorted. And then the minor tour came. That's just... Who thought that up? Do you know what? The story, obviously we'll get into the story. All good with the story, fine. But that little detail...

that's the cherry on the top who came up with that i mean that that shows commitment doesn't it like on her part is that she would involve diy and a craftsman in this as well because if i was going to do that i'd attempt to do it myself i'd be too embarrassed to try and get help yeah what's that thing that you can put is it like um like the handyman apps or whatever you call yeah you've been looking on youtube for tutorials can you imagine car

Alpinter wanted to fashion cow for something or other. No questions, please. For shenanigans, the questions are. That's the most deranged story. To be fair to Pasifo, though, she has been made to fall in love with the bull by Aphrodite. Right, but she wasn't made to go and make a cow suit.

that she had to run around in. No, but you know. All right, so we're going to give her a bit of license because she's been cursed by God. She's not in her right mind, quite clearly. What a bonkers story. And in this world, that results in a pregnancy? In this world, that results in the pregnancy of a bull child called the Minotaur, who is then, most people know him because he's lobbed in the labyrinth, this maze that's underground that he has to live in, in shame. Wow.

And all this because his dad, Minos, wouldn't sacrifice a bull? Well, he's not his dad, technically, is he? Okay. Oh, yes, he's not. No. All right. Your stepdad. Stepdad. Yeah. If you want to call it that. Okay. You say all of this. I totally get why it doesn't feel like a fair punishment. But what's been broken is the law of hubris, which is arrogance against the gods. So it's a disrespect to the gods. And that is hardcore. That's a hardcore crime.

uh religious crime so it is fitting in the greek in the greek always in the greek mindset um it's fitting no no i like to think social services would have stepped in a while before i would like to i mean i know the funding ain't great nowadays but i'd like to see that would have gone up the top of the case list as one to have a look at that wouldn't be a story we'd all be reading about in the papers going there were opportunities missed because we saw her building a cow your honor

Oh my God. Right, sorry. We should probably both be fired from this podcast immediately. I think so. I think it might be cancelled pretty quickly after this. Right, okay. Moving swiftly along. So the poor little kid, the Minotaur, and is that his name, Minotaur, or is it the Minotaur? I've never thought of it before. I'm sorry.

I don't know why that's even funnier to think of. You mean like Madonna, but it's Minotaur. Because the Minotaur, which suggests there's more than one. Well, no, I guess it depends on how sassy he's feeling on the day. Is he just Minotaur? No, I think there aren't any more, but Minos is the first part because obviously where

where he's at Minos and Taurus is bull so it's like the bull of Minos quite literally so it is specific to him but I just quite like the idea that he's like calling himself by this I'd like to go by Minotaur thank you very much yes

So what was he like before he got thrown in this giant maze, also built by Daedalus, who was kept very busy by this family? Why was he thrown in there? Was he thrown in there as an infant? Did he display disturbing behaviour as a bull child? Like what? So the first thing is like in the sources...

The Minotaur isn't seen as this kind of primary figure where we hear about how the Minotaur is feeling and thinking. He's kind of like just this object of shame. So there's no kind of like, sit down children, listen to the story of the Minotaur from his perspective. There's none of that going on in any of the sources. It's more like there's this creature that's

And he's thrown into the labyrinth. I mean, he has to be, the labyrinth has to be designed and made by Daedalus so he can go and live in it to hide the shame of what has happened. So it's quite sad really with the Minotaur because he doesn't really have, he's not even the leading character in his own story. No, he's not.

really is he he's a bit there's not source material wise for him there is source material of course but even like the actual meat and bones of his story doesn't really come up until like the first century AD so it's really late because although there's origins way back like 6th 7th century like mentions yeah like the meatiness doesn't come to a bit later so

He's not even that big a deal in earlier mythology. And he's another character from Greek myth that seems to have got a particularly raw deal when you actually break down what's happened to this character because none of this is his fault. No, it's not. And again, we see this a lot with monsters. They are essentially some kind of

projection of a human fear. Yeah. And yeah, they're personified in some way into a character. It might feel harsh, but there's no kind of like, you know, the Greeks aren't thinking of them as like this poor little individual figure. He symbolizes something and they're aware of that. But that's why these individuals are made into monsters because they're not human. Yeah.

It doesn't matter that he's got a human body. He's got a bull's head. He's not human. And so that means we can put him over there and make him an object of fear rather than just a normal human that did something bad over there. But you're right. For us, if you've got any bloody empathy, you'll be like, that's horrible. Yeah. Lobbed in the dark. Okay, so none of that came up in the Jim Henson version. No. Theseus...

Enter stage left Theseus. Who is he? Where did he come from? Let's try and explain what happens, where the Minotaur reappears.

Yeah, so Theseus comes from Athens and the Athenians are supposed to... I mean, don't ask me why again, right? But the Athenians are supposed to send a group of youths, men and boys and girls over for the monitor to be eaten every year. Every year or every four years. It doesn't... Different versions doesn't really matter. But... And so...

Theseus is like, hang on a minute, that ain't right. I'm not going to send my people over to get eaten by this thing. So he goes in as one of the youths hidden and goes to slay the Minotaur and put an end to this malarkey. So as you know, it's a labyrinth. So how's he going to get in and get out? He backs himself that he can kill the Minotaur, but how's he going to get out? So Princess Ariadne, who is one of the daughters of Minos, falls in love with him and helps. And...

She gives him a ball of wool, so he kind of goes off in and unravels it so he can follow it, he can kill the monotone and come back out again. And then he does the decent thing on the way back, takes her, gonna marry her, just abandons her on the island of Naxos on the way back, just goes, see you later, love, you've done your job. He's an original fuckboy. That's not very nice. He's a douche, really. LAUGHTER

So he kills the Minotaur. Do we know how? No, it's not like other stories where you've got a detail about it. He just goes and kills the Minotaur. Right. It's quite sad, actually. And he's dead. Presumably with a sword or a knife or a dagger or a rock. There's different lines. Not much detail, really. And then he runs off with Ariadne and ditches her on

on an island. After she's just betrayed her family to do this as well. You've got to remember that. Technically, the Minotaur is her half-brother. So it's messed up, isn't it? What a shit. Yeah, he's not... I do not like Theseus. Don't get me chatting about him. I'm not a fan. No.

No, no. There's something about him that he's just really up himself. They're all up himself. Look, he is really up himself. I've always hated him. So sorry if everyone loves him out there. Nobody does. And I was just going to say, surely even back in the ancient Greek world, his abandoning of Ariadne would have been at least frowned upon.

No, it's no, no. I mean, it's, I mean, like for example, Jason and Medea, Medea helps Jason to get the golden fleece by putting the dragon to sleep. Spoiler alert, that's in my book. And then,

he says I'll marry you and then he does and it's all crap though it's just not a good end no and her rage ends up killing everyone so spoiler alert about Greece is women aren't treated very good no the end but also Theseus is he's just he's a fucking idiot as well because didn't he forget to change his ship's sails on the way back wasn't that a thing yeah so his dad is called Aegeus

And his dad, I mean, why you do this? I've got no idea. Should have just sent a WhatsApp saying he was all right. But he said, obviously he was shitting himself that his son was going over to kill the Minotaur. So he said, when you come back,

make sure you change your sail because there's a black sail and a white sail. So make sure you change your sail to show me that you're alive so I know you've come back. And he forgot to change the sail. Dickhead. See, they can't change the sheets. They can't change the sails. It's just ridiculous. His father lobs himself into the sea and that's why it's called the Aegean Sea after Aegeus. Well, what a miserable, rather depressing story. Are there any winners in this at all? Nope. No.

It's awful. It's awful, isn't it? It's fascinating, but it's awful. The end. Why is it your favourite myth then? This is just a car crash of human misery. It's because of the cow bit.

I just don't know what that says about me, but I just find that I don't know why. It is the most mad detail. I just have always just been like, what the hell is that about? I just loved it. Genuinely though, like the minor tour has a lot of symbolism that relates to it. I actually think it is really sad. I think basically I like myths that have, I really feel something from it.

and I just feel something from this. I get angry and sad at this one and a little bit bemused by the whole cow bit. So I get a nice range of emotions. That's why it's one of my favourites. Yeah, I mean, it definitely makes you think, doesn't it? What symbolism do you think the bull has? Like, why is he half a bull? Why isn't he half a horse or half a, I don't know, a rhino? What is the symbolism of the bull? Well, the bull's really interesting. So before we

we have the sort of the Greeks as you might think of them there are different obviously eras and the oldest civilization in the Greek islands is the Minoans on the island of Crete which is the same as where the Minotaur is and they were famed for their ball leaping and they have a lot of balls in their iconography so ball leaping is where there are these images they're pretty cool where men would as a sport sort of leap over the back of a ball it looks insane I don't know how they did it and they must have all died as far as I can tell but

it's like I guess a prelude to kind of bullfighting in what you get in Spain and things like that but it looked more artistic so the bull was long associated with Crete in its kind of history so it makes sense that it would be a bull and not a horse or a

a goat or any other thing you want to fancy lob it in there rather than yeah any other creature because it's what Crete's known for so it's really why I'd say it's the bull is it anything to do with masculinity is the bull a symbol of masculinity I mean kind of I guess it kind of is now like bullfighting that's the whole point of it isn't it it's like oh look at me big man I can kill this animal

I mean, obviously there's the fact that originally Minos was going to sacrifice a beautiful bull. So it's kind of like, you know, here we go. That motif continues in the punishment. I wouldn't say necessarily that it's like a manly, is it a manly creature? I mean, obviously it's a really powerful creature, but

And so it's got an aspect of kind of power in there. Therefore, is that a bit manly? Maybe. But I don't really think there's a lot to do with the choice of it that relates to gender there, really. I'll be back with Jasmine and the Minotaur after this short break.

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Visit us at monday.com to learn more. What would you think about the idea that the Minotaur

There's something to do with sexual shame here. I mean, thinking back to the insane cow story, I would be ashamed too. But the way that Greeks and the ancient myths work is it's all very symbolic. Like if you start to question it for too long, the whole thing falls apart pretty quickly. So like you can't get into the logistics of what, how, who did what. Like what did bestiality mean to them? What do you think they... Do you think they thought that was a funny story? Do you think that they thought that... Like what would that have meant to them, this...

this woman who is so insane with lust that she has a man comes in to build things for her. Like, what do you think that meant to them? It is a mad story. It's completely mad, but you're right. At the heart of it is sexual taboo. Yeah. So this is obviously something, this is not something that is going on in Greek society. This is not their attitude to this. This is a taboo. You don't do this. Mm-hmm.

And so that is why we have this myth. Because as you quite rightly said, myth's always a moral kind of exploration of something going on in society. So really it's about sexual shame that relates to the taboo of bestiality. And that's just what it's about. It's literally what it says on the tin, this one. It's not too complicated in that sense. You know, I think that there is this...

kind of point to it because this thing happens and there is this baby born out of it, right? This minotaur, this idea as well of it being, having to be locked away, the shame being physically taken away and locked underground in a maze. This is my own thought really, but the maze looks a lot like a brain, right? And it's like subconscious, right?

And it's like locking away this shame never to be spoken of again. And again, we get that hero, that same bloody thing again, where the male hero has to come in to end it. Like a man needs to come in and put this right, you know? And I think it's really fascinating that it's,

double, double, triple shocking that it's a woman that has committed the incest. I think definitely, right? When you kind of look at this thing, it's like, where's the shame? And I think the excessiveness of that story all plays into the shock value of it to sort of justify what's happened here, something that needs to be kept secret and something that needs to be kept away, as a lot of Greek monsters are. What do you think the

the Minotaur has to be fed seven maidens and seven boys every few years. Like what addition to the narrative is that? Because they could have, I mean, I know what Norm was thinking this through, like with a subplot and stuff, but it's an interesting addition to the narrative. Like why is this creature now killing Minotaur?

Yeah, I guess it's kind of like double whack, really. First of all, if the Minotaur was just born and just disappeared, we wouldn't be able to explore the monstrous nature of the Minotaur. And the fact that he needs to eat bodies, human flesh, which is another taboo thing. There's no human sacrifice going on in Greece. That's not a thing. That shows how uncivilized he is, uncontrollable, monstrous,

So there's a first point about that that adds to his monstrosity. The second point, I'd say, is that we need a way to introduce Theseus into the narrative so he can come save everyone and sort the Minotaur out. So we need that addition of the maidens and the young men for him to come in. And I guess I said too, really third point as well then, is really about the fact that he feasts on youth as well. Mm.

is kind of a bit more destructive because in lots of ways, this is Athens's future generation that he's feasting on. So it's just kind of like, in lots of ways, it could be this idea that something that is shameful continues to have an impact on,

every now and then it's continuing to have this impact it's a cycle that needs to be broken hence the sort of why they have to come every x number of years to come and be fed it's all very hunger gamesy isn't it this it is a bit hungry gamesy isn't it yeah when i hear this story i can't help but wonder what is the fucking point in theseus like seriously it doesn't like is it like a pride thing that was supposed to look at him and just

What? Like, he goes and he kills the monster, but we're not given a lot of details. He does get the girl, but he ditches her on an island. He kills the monster, but he goes back and he forgets to change his sails so his dad dies. It's like, none of this... He seems to be being punished too. It's like, what...

He doesn't sail off into the distance and become a king and live happily ever after. It's such a weird story. Well, he sort of does later on. Oh, he does? Yeah, but he's in his heroic cycle. So the point is that when you're in your heroic cycle, you are going through difficult tasks.

and you're trying to overcome them. And they're not always neat and tidy. But I mean, the point of Theseus is exactly that. Every single Greek myth you're going to find a monster, you're going to find a hero. You have to have it. It's like light and dark. The uncontrollable needs to be controlled by some bloke. In this example, it's Theseus. And also the whole thing about him leaving Ariadne, that's just him...

that thing. That's the sort of thing that men can do. It's not like the Greeks would have gone, oh, how dare he? He'd have gone, yeah, yeah, she deserved her purpose. That was all right. Never mind. It's sort of like, I'm glad his dad killed himself quite frankly. Horrible man. But,

The lovely thing about myths is because they are so startlingly vague and bizarre, the different time periods and generations project their own interpretation and meaning onto them. So they shift all the time. Like Medusa's myth shifts all the time.

Has the Minotaur myth shifted very much? Has he ever undergone a process of reclamation? Has anyone ever wanted to tell his story? Not really. Unlike many of the monstrous female figures that we see so much interest in,

There's not a lot around the Minotaur. It's not to say no one's been interested in him, but there's not been this massive resurgence of interest in his story. Other than, I guess, in the psychological aspects of sexual taboo and bestiality and interest in that. But yeah, sadly, a little bit in reflection to how he was in Greek myth in the sources.

Because there's not actually a prolific amount about the Minotaur in the source material. There's enough, don't get me wrong. But he was never even really that popular in Greek source material. And I would say it's continued. Wow.

It's not that there's nothing. It's not that there's nothing, but there's not a whole load. Picasso did some minor Tori stuff, didn't he? Yeah, Picasso did. There's a few different artworks that he's done that relate to this kind of issue. And, you know, it's kind of an important feature in his work. And I think that the thinking behind this is that Picasso has some kind of

personal interest in the Minotaur story and that he saw aspects of himself in the Minotaur. I mean, it might be to do with obviously his Spanish ancestry. I don't want to get into Picasso's personal life. I don't know what he was up to. I'm not sure it's to do with that he was into sort of bestiality or anything. I'm not going to go that far. But I think, you know, kind of what the Minotaur represents, the

The idea that Spain has a big kind of connection to balls. I think he was fascinated and kind of interpreted that in his own artworks. I wouldn't say that's tantamount to like some movement of massive interest in the minor tour. That's one dude going, let's have a little look at this and trying to understand it in his Picasso-y way as he does it in his sort of surrealist, strange, you know, kind of technique style.

to look into it. So he just kind of just exists on the sort of the margins of myth really is this kind of strange half bull, half human thing.

that just, again, doesn't get any lines of his own. Doesn't, nothing in his own voice. No, and that's the bit that's quite sad, isn't it? It's a bit like, you know, exactly what happens in the myth is happening now. You know, he's put underground and ignored and actually very few people have been that interested in him since the story. I wonder if what,

Picasso like? Because he was a notorious fanny rat. You couldn't keep him away long enough. Did you just call him a fanny rat? I did, yes. Okay, I like that one. I've heard that one. Is that a cateism? I don't think he was a very nice person. I really don't. But I think maybe he saw the Minotaur as this unrestrained male sexuality and potency. Like this male...

lust that's running around a maze. Right. Okay. I mean, I don't know where he's getting that from in terms of the Greek myth. His own pants, I think. Yeah, I think it's just like some element of fantasy. There's no real... It's not like the monotone's down there shagging everyone for his whole life in Greek myth. He's probably a virgin, I would have said. Yeah, I should probably think so. As you say, it's to do with, I think, really more Spanish perspectives of what you mentioned earlier on about the bull...

and the masculinity that is very much associated with that in a Spanish context. So it's that notion. I guess what you mean, like there's like, there isn't then what they see as a bull as being like virulent and kind of powerful and...

I mean, that would make some sense, right? I can see that. But I'm just a little bit distracted still by you calling him a fanny rat. What was that? Was it? Yeah, a fanny rat. Yeah, just a little bit distracted by that. So final question then. Yes. Would you rather have the head of a bull or the bottom of a bull?

Because he seems to have got a raw deal with that. Like, if you've got to be a half-bull, half-man hybrid, you must have got the head of a bull and looked down at your genitals and gone, oh, bloody hell. Can I just kindly decline all your offers of any party being a bull? Is that an option? LAUGHTER

I definitely don't want to get Daedalus to make me into some kind of weird cow creature to climb into. No, no, definitely not. I'm all right just being the full human, if that's okay. All right. What do you want? What bit of bull do you want on you? I don't know. Because if you've got the bull head, then you can be full monster running around.

like being monstrous but if you've got like your normal human top half and the bottom bit of a bull like you can't be that monstrous you'd still have to like go around tesco's and everything but just have the bottom half of a bull i think it'd be quite embarrassing so i would i'd go full top of bull you know when people say do you overthink this might be something you might want to have a little reflection on something just sit with it for a while kate unpack that

And on that note, Jasmine, you have been marvellous. Again, you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? If they want to write to you and tell you if they would prefer the top or bottom half of a bull, where can they find you? Well, they should probably immediately call a therapist if they're seriously thinking about it. Okay, if they can find me, I'm on Instagram at

history underscore with underscore soul catch me there that's mainly where I'm at nowadays and yeah thanks for having me again brilliant brilliant time always is hilarious it's been so much fun and we will see you again soon see you soon

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Jasmine for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. Coming up, we've got episodes on how to give birth like a medieval person and the first in our upcoming mini-series exploring sex work throughout history. And we will be starting with none other than the ancient Romans.

This podcast was edited by Tom DeLarge and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again between the sheets, the history of sex scandal and society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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I'm Danny Pellegrino from the Everything Iconic podcast, and I'm so excited to talk to you about the McDonald's all-new McCrispy strips. The new McCrispy strips are here. It's chicken made for dipping. So delicious, tender, juicy, white meat chicken with a golden brown peppery breading. It's chicken so good it deserves its own sauce. The creamy, chili McCrispy strip dip, a sauce that's creamy, savory, and sweet with a little bit of heat. You will not regret trying it, but all of their sauces are good, and the chicken's made for

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