Fertility 'Waiting Rooms' & Telling A Friend That You're Pregnant When They're Struggling With Fertility
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This episode was recorded on Camaragal land. Hey guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. And do you know what we are right now? We are on the wedding countdown. I mean, we've been on the wedding countdown for a while, but like-

We're aggressively counting down now, which is nice. Ready for it? It is nice. No, jokes aside, I have been on the countdown for quite a long time. You're speaking about this in existential terms, whereas I'm speaking about it in literal terms. You're like, never thought I was ever going to find the one. No, you're like, fuck that. We're there. We're like counting down the days. No, it is true. It's like I have been on the countdown for a long time, but since I got engaged, I've also been on the countdown. But I feel like it's within reach now. Like it is so close.

I can almost lick it. Okay, do you feel, maybe this is too much of a personal question and probably a question I should have asked you a long time ago. Do I feel horny about it? No, absolutely nothing to do with any level of horn. Was it a mutual, as in like did Ben come to you? A mutual decision to get married, yes. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

You checked that we both consented. Well, since Ben doesn't really know the daytime or what's happening, I'm wondering if he's going to show up. No, what I mean by that is, he's like, sometimes it's one person who wants it more than the other person. It was Ben the one.

need to hand you a shovel keep digging your hole what is this are you trying to say I wanted it more than Ben Ben asked me can I remind you he asked me I know and I actually didn't say yes straight away I giggled for about 30 minutes and then he said you need to answer me oh my god yeah look I'll dig myself up no I mean was he the one who brought it up first or were you the one who brought it up first in terms of like marriage to the relationship oh marriage

I know we're about consent, but I can confirm we both consented to the marriage. I brought it up first with Matt, I'm pretty sure. Like he would talk about it, but I was like, dude, I'm really pregnant and I know that I did this to trap you, but I reckon you should do something about this. Do you know, I don't actually remember. This is a really good question.

Oh, now it's a good question after you make me feel so uncomfortable for asking this. I just imagined you in one of those like possum traps, like Matt's in the like possum trap and you're like, you've gotten yourself there. I'm pregnant. Like, what are you going to do about it? I imagine like Laura trying to be at my engagement when the helicopter lands, look behind me to Ben, like blink twice if you need help. You don't have to do this. It's funny.

Is she making you? It's when the officiant asks, like, does anyone object? And I'm like, I don't know if Ben, I don't know if he's gone into this with full consent. Ben, speak for yourself. Ben, say now. No, it's funny because we had a very fast moving relationship, as you guys know, but I don't think it was too fast. And I don't think it was faster than a lot of people our age. I do think adult relationships and I say adult, but I don't know what the age is.

maybe it's 30, but there comes a time where relationships move so much faster because both people have been through it. They know what they want. They know what they're looking for. They know who they want in a partner. And I think it just happens quicker because you're also, you pull the pin quicker. You know, when you're dating and you know that person's not for you, maybe in your twenties, you're like, they're not for me, but they're fun. And I've got nothing else to do. I'm going to sit in it a while. It comes a

point at maybe in your 30s where you don't want to do that anymore and you're like, you could be fun, but I don't have time for fun. Like, I'm looking for my person. I don't know if it's always an age-related thing. I think it is a person-related thing. I think you have to have gone through the relationship, not necessarily, but for a lot of people, you have to have gone through the relationships that feel as though they're always either in purgatory or they're time-wasting or, you know, we talked about fertility vampires. But I think a lot of people go through these very long relationships that don't eventuate or kind of feel like they never have

we're able to kick it into second gear or third gear. And then you meet someone and all the things that you want in life align. And so it moves seamlessly. And it's kind of like you wake up one day and you're like, oh, it actually wasn't meant to be that hard. I'd been lied to about the effort that relationships take and that relationships take work. And I know they do, but not that much work, let me tell you. Or like, you know, you've got to kind of fight to be able to have it worth something. Whereas

And I know with my experience with Matt was like we met and then it was so easy and I was like, what's happening here? You just had to get the 26 other women first. Yeah. It was so easy. It was so easy.

I think it has to do with how comfortable you are in your own company as well. At least that was for me. I think I had to get to a point where dating no one was also an option that I was comfortable with. I'm not sure if I'm explaining that correctly. When you're confident enough in what you bring to the table where you won't just accept shit behavior to kind of fill that

or that void perhaps. Like you're actually kind of comfortable in yourself and you were absolutely there. You were comfortable in your own company. No, that's the problem. I only met Ben because I was too comfortable on my own. Like the reason I met him was because I had to pull myself out of the hole of being in my own space and on my own. I loved it. I love being on my own so much. I reckon I could have...

Hope Ben doesn't take this the wrong way. I genuinely reckon I could have been pretty damn happy living a life on my own because I would have got to a point where you forget what you're missing out on. You know, like it's easy. And I saw a quote from someone very famous a couple of days ago. I think it was the guy that we had the crush on that we were talking about in your vibe. What was his name? Tom Hardy. Tom Hardy. It was Tom Hardy. And Tom Hardy was like, it's very dangerous to spend time on your own because you realize how much you love it and how much you don't need the drama of like other

people sometimes and I really felt that. I don't know if I find that like a negative thing you know I've had some really great conversations with Ellie so Ellie is Matt's mum as you guys I mean most of you know she's been single for a really long time like Matt and her so Matt's dad and mum separated when he was like 14 or 15 or something and she had a couple of partners after that nothing that was like a

of real importance and then has been single ever since. And one of the things I think is that as a culture and as a society, we expect that people need to have partnerships or need to have companionship in, you know, a romantic sense in order to have a fulfilling life. And she's like, I have never been happier. I have never been more self-sufficient, self-fulfilled than when I have been single and on my own. And she was like, I never want to date again because I never want to hand over my happiness to someone who can impact this.

that's the important thing. I was so happy on my own and I wasn't looking for someone for the wrong reasons. I was looking for someone to add to my life, but I was happy if that didn't happen. And I know plenty of people that have, that are older in my family or whatever, that have not had kids and not had a partner or don't have a partner now in their sixties and seventies. And they're so happy. And I'm sure there's parts of their life where they have those moments where they wish they were sharing it with someone. But anyway, back to the question,

It was such an organic conversation because, and I think it was because I was a bit older fertility wise, that we had the conversations really early to make sure we're on the same page, which we always encourage people to do, right? We're like, put out what you want. Do you want kids in marriage? Ask that person if they want it. So really early on, we started to talk about kids. I was really upfront saying I'd already frozen eggs. And I said, look, you guys remember, I'm pretty sure Ben and I froze embryos in six months. Like it was really quick, but

And that happened where I said, look, I do think I want kids. And he said the same thing. And I said, but I want to be married before I have them. And we sort of worked back on the timeline. We were like, how old would you want to be when you have kids? Then we worked out, you know, well, that's nine months. And if it's IVF, we give it a couple of buffer, which means we'd get married here, which means if we have an engagement for a year, that's... And we almost worked backwards and it just became such an obvious thing that was going to happen. It wasn't a like...

like, oh my God, do you think we're going to spend our life together? From the day we met, we just knew and it was never an awkward conversation. It was so organic, but it was a bit unromantic in a way that we didn't

we had to work back. I had to figure out how long it could take me to fall pregnant if we'd go down the IVF route and then we had to do the embryos first. Once we put that timeline in, we were like, well, I guess we'll get engaged next year. It's like that episode of Friends where she's like, I need to be married before I'm 30. And then she's like, fuck, I meant to meet someone last year. Yeah, I understand that. I do think it's interesting though, Britt, and even with what you just said then, you were talking about people in your family who are single and you said, I'm sure they have moments where they're lonely. Yeah.

I think we have to be careful with that because I genuinely do believe that there are people who are on their own who are not romantically lonely. And Ellie is one of them. She doesn't have moments. And we've had really deep conversations about it where she's like, that's the problem. People always assume that you must have moments where you're lonely for companionship. She's like,

I don't feel that and I haven't felt that for a very long time. She's like, because I've come to a place of total peace. I do not want it. And it's almost as though people find it an impossibility to believe that that could be the case. And I agree. The people that I am thinking of are all very happy, but I have spoken to them in the past and they're

It seems a pretty obvious statement, but they say things like, you know, I don't need it. I don't miss it. I'm happy. I fulfill my life with other ways. Of course, I have those moments every now and again where the lull comes, where you're on your own and no one's around. There's nothing going on. You haven't booked something for the next couple of months and you realize, oh, now would be a nice time to have been sitting with someone watching TV or just those tiny little things.

But I don't think that means they're inherently lonely. They're very happy, but it's human nature to sometimes crave those connections or to share a life with someone. Obviously, it hits slightly different if you are not surrounded by people like Ellie.

Speaking of weddings, I'm in big trouble from Ben because I don't think we've spoken about this on the podcast yet, but Laura slash Tony May, but I guess Laura, she's the designer. Laura made our wedding rings and, I mean, I took her some ideas and we worked with them and Laura has made the most amazing

beautiful wedding rings that I have received a couple of days ago. Actually, it was a week ago. Actually, it was two weeks ago and they are absolutely stunning. I can't wait to show you guys them, but you've probably already seen them because I tried them on. Laura's like, just try it on, make sure it fits and looks good. Make sure the size is good. Make sure it feels comfortable. Make sure it sits under the band nicely. So I tried it on.

And I haven't taken it off. I've been wearing my wedding ring. I was like, they're so beautiful. I just want to wear them. And I've been wearing them everywhere to the point that Ben FaceTimes me and he's like, Brittany. I'm like, what? He's like, take your wedding ring off. And I'm like, what do you mean? And I'm like hiding my hand. He's like, I've seen it. I've seen it in the photos. I've seen it in the videos. I've seen you wearing it everywhere. And I was like, but it just looks so beautiful. I don't think you're alone with this though. Cause we make a lot of wedding rings at like through Tony May and I'm

I would say that a lot of people like to road test their wedding rings before their wedding. Or they put it on and then they get a bit carried away and they don't take it off. It just looked too good. I was like, I deserve people to, like, people need to see this. And Ben's like, I'm pretty sure it's bad luck. As it will come as no surprise to anyone. So Britt came in and we kind of sat down and went through, like, what she wanted and everything. And, like, one of the bands, so Britt,

No, okay, when I say one of the bands, most people get one wedding ring. Not Britney. Two, okay? One is plain gold, just a plain gold band. Simple, understated. Yes, love that. Hot, sexy, classic, classy. Yeah, absolutely. Me, classy. The other one is an infinity diamond ring. Gorgeous, stunning. Very Britney. And I was like, okay, cool. Are we going like a 2.5?

5mm, like a 2mm, 2.5 for anyone is like, when I say pave, it's like the little diamonds that sit across with claw settings. Right, when you said infinity, I thought you meant the infinity symbol in a really good way. No, no, no. I was like, pardon? Infinity just meaning like the diamonds. It's just a straight diamond band. The diamonds go around. So, and Britt was like, oh, I think they need to be bigger. So we went a little bit bigger. Then I was like, what about this? And she was like, I think...

look, it's got to balance. I think a little bit bigger. Laura's like, this is going to be quite big. And I was like, I see slightly bigger. She goes, is there a problem? I was like, I hear what you're saying and I raise you five. There weren't even

even a couple of confirmations like a couple of days later Laura's like we're at the point of go just confirming I was like size is great okay to be fair though it doesn't look too big it looks absolutely stunning like you know if anyone can pull it off it's Brittany Hockley anyway worse than mine let's talk

Ben's. Ben's the baller here. Well, this is the other thing. So Ben's ring is a straight man. Like most men are not very experimental with their wedding rings. And like I have done loads of consultations with like men who show up and they kind of don't even know what they want or they want like a four millimeter straight band. Maybe they might go matte just to really like jig it up. And sometimes if they're like a little bit stylish, they might put a hammered texture on there. Like, you know, men are usually...

Most men, I wouldn't say all, but a lot of men are not familiar with wearing jewelry. So even getting a wedding ring is a bit of like a wig out for them. So they want something that they can't feel between their fingers. They want something pretty small. It's so nice when you get a guy who comes in and they love jewelry and they want to do something that's like fun and weird and wacky or has diamonds in it or whatever. Like it's a really fun process. So.

So Brit sent me this ring that Ben liked, which was like a straight gold band and that had diamonds inlaid around the middle. So it has like a strip of diamonds in it. So think like gold on the top, strip of diamonds, gold on the bottom. Now the diamonds in this band were quite small. Like they were quite like understated row of also what's called pave diamonds.

And so I like sent off all the specs and everything and my goldsmith was making it up. I don't know whether I confused the specs or whether because Brit's diamonds were so big that they wanted to match. Anyway, they sent them across and I was like, I think that you've gotten that wrong. I was like, they're too big. I think we'll need to refit the diamonds to being like a couple of size smaller. But they already sort of put them in, not set them, but they were like,

Sort of already. They'd already drilled the holes where the diamonds would go. But it's fine. Like, I mean, that happens and then you just do a remake. Like, it's not a big deal, you know, especially at that point of the process. That's only like a couple of hours into making it. And so I sent it to Brit and I was like, hey, just want to flag this. I was like, you know, obviously this doesn't have to stay like this. We can go and scale it back down. Or alternatively, like, I just wanted to get a gauge as to how big Ben wanted them to be.

I did not expect Ben's response to be like, it's brilliant. Bigger is better. Size matters. I was like, babe, they've accidentally made your diamonds too big. What do you think? I said it to him. Who?

He was like, fuck yes. He was like, that is so good. And I was like, oh, you're happy? And he's like, baller. I said, Laura, go ahead. I was like, lock in the giant diamond. And it is a very audacious men's ring and I love it. Like, don't get me wrong. Like, it's not like it's gaudy or over the top. No. But it's just not a ring that most men would have the confidence to wear. And so it's so nice to make something that's like a little bit more out there. And I say this because Ben, that's not my husband's name, Matt,

for his wedding ring. So you guys probably remember back in the day when I was on Batch, like, well, it's just kind of like what happens in the last episode of The Bachelor. Oh, is it? They give you a ring. Apparently. I don't know.

I don't know if I've ever talked about this before because Matt kind of said that he was like, I don't want people to know this. At the end of Bachelor, so when you're, don't look at me like that, Brit, when you're the woman at the end. Please, go forth. Most of the time. Talk about how nice it was to get a ring at the end. They give you a ring, right? And it's kind of a weird one because the Bachelor designs the ring before he's actually chosen who he's going to pick. So because he has to, right? It's a generic ring not made for the person.

Not necessarily specifically made for the person, made knowing that he's going to give it to someone. So the ring that Matt designed, it was beautiful, but it was a white gold ring and I don't wear white gold. I'm a yellow gold gal. So for me, when I got it, I was like, oh, wow. And it looked like. Wow. It looked like a engagement ring. It was this big ring.

oval diamond with like all these tiny little diamonds in the band in like a beautiful princess prong setting. Like it was a really, really big engagement ring. I wore it a lot at the start because I loved it because he'd given it to me and I loved like what it meant. But then kind of as the years progressed, I was like, oh, it's just so not something I would normally wear. And also once we'd gotten engaged, I was like, well, now I have an engagement ring and now I have another engagement ring that I have to wear on the other hand. That I don't even like.

Well, I did like it. I don't want to say that. But yeah, I felt guilty. It's white gold. I felt guilty because like no one wants to be given something that's sentimental and then be like, hey, can I remake it and make it better? Or remake it and make it for myself. So what I did is I took the stone out of that, the center stone, and I remade it into a ring that I wear every single day now. It's just a flat like, you know, a ring.

way more wearable ring for me but I took all the tiny little diamonds out of that band and that's what went into his wedding ring so his wedding ring is kind of similar to Ben's it's a gold flat band but it has loads of little diamonds all through the band so it's very blingy but they're all from my bachelor ring so he wears that every day and it's really sentimental to us I feel like I'm gonna get in trouble telling this story or like Matt's gonna be mad about this why would he be

mad about it because I didn't even know you properly I know but shouldn't say that I didn't know you but like when he made that

Unfortunately, it does have to be made a few weeks before people have usually made their decision. So like I don't think he's going to be upset in you saying that. I think it's more around the logistics of the fact that like a ring is because like the way it works on Batch is like a ring is gifted from the brand who gives it and that's like their contribution from like a marketing and advertising perspective. So like I would never want to say like, oh, I didn't like the ring. Like I loved the ring. It just wasn't something that I would normally wear. It was in the wrong colour medal. It was the wrong colour. Yeah, it's okay. He didn't know.

And I'm a jeweler. God damn it. Yeah, you're in the clear here. He's like, I love you, Laura Lee. It's you. You're like, Laura. I'm Laura. Like, Laura and I wear gold. It's like an aggressive punt to give a jewelry designer a ring. Put it that way. Or anyone a ring that you're still dating 20 other women. Like, that's a big thing to do. My mum, I remember her saying that the moment she knew that she needed to separate from my dad was she had worn white gold for literally her whole life. They were together since she was 15 years old.

And he got her a gold watch. She was like 40. I absolutely agree with this because I feel like when people say, oh, but it's the thought that counts. I'm like, no, but that's a thoughtless gift. That's a gift that you have paid no attention to your partner for their entire relationship that you've never noticed that you wear a specific color. Anyway, that wasn't the case with Matt. What I will say is.

This ring really suits Ben. Like I've never been a big jewelry on men person. I don't know why. Ben wears jewelry, but it really suits him. And like this, it's a ball, absolutely baller ring, but he's so happy with it and it looks beautiful on him. He's got this, this is irrelevant, beautiful Swiss golden skin. And it just looks so good on him that I love it. He loves it. So thank you so much for making them. I do need them cleaned again. Sorry, because I have been wearing them a lot. Sorry.

Like I was like, yeah, I really need to stop. It's really special to be able to like do something that's for you. That's also part of your wedding. That's something that I'm going to be on you forever now. And I love that. Every time you look at your ring, you're going to think of me. That's what I wanted out of my wedding ring. I want to think of Ben. And I want to see you. I want you both to know that I'm part of this struggle for

ever. Like it's just the three of us. I do see you more than him. It is awkward. Okay. So now I just need to get them to the wedding safely, safe and sound. I might strap them to my boob or something. No one talks about the logistics of having to travel with wedding rings or engagement rings and the fear that you have around not losing them. I

I think I just need to put them on. Stop looking at me. Stop looking. I'm taking the dress. I'm not also being responsible for rings. No. Also, I've dispersed the dresses. So everyone knows Keisha has turned into the wedding mule. Like she is carting the full wedding dress over there. Only because as we established, Britt doesn't trust that I won't look at it. And fair, fair game, I will. I still stand by the fact that you 100% would put it on. You would be like, I just need to see what's beautiful, stunning, gorgeous. She like doesn't zip it up because the pregnant belly doesn't quite make it these days.

Brie fully sat me down last week and she was like, Keisha, I need, I need, we've traveled internationally together before. And she's like, I know what you're like. I know that you are more than comfortable being the last person on the plane. I hate sitting on the plane and waiting. Like I'm so happy to be the last person. I never put anything above because it just fits, you know, in the leg room for me anyway. No, we had to have a proper chat. She was like, you will be.

the first person on the plane. You are lining up. You're waiting. As soon as you get to the gate, I don't care if they haven't called for boarding yet, you're at the front of the line. You're sitting in line holding my dress waiting to get on because you have to get on first. Because you know how if you get on last and there's no room left, they're like, sorry, your stuff's got to go underneath. I was like, first person there, Keisha. We're not waiting until the last minute to call the Uber. You're going to be lined up. I can't wait to see Keisha on border control at the other side. Border security. In Bali. In Bali.

Anyway, guys, look, I know that that's a lot of wedding chat. There was going to be a whole lot more coming up. Oh, please, we've just started. We have literally just unpacked, like, you know, chipped into the tip of the iceberg, but there's going to be a lot more coming up and that will be in the next few episodes. But there was something that happened to me that I wanted to tell you about. It's very small. It's very dumb. How do you think you respond to road rage if you're on like a scale of one to ten? Like some people are very... Respond? We're on the receiving end. No, like you're the road rager.

Like some people are like normal humans in their everyday life, which is what I think I am. And then the road rage just tips you. It's like the one place where the rage can come out. The rage that you suppress throughout your normal daily life, you just let it out in the car. I'm not proud of it. Keisha's witnessed it a few times. I'm not proud of it. I'm that person. I am...

So relaxed. I could be horizontal. I'm chill. When I get in that car, if someone cuts me off or someone drives dangerously, I'm out the window. I'm throwing fingers. I'm not proud. I've seen her hold the horn in, put the window down, shove her finger out. But remember that awkward moment that we thought he was going to get out? Yeah, that we stopped further.

Further up the road, we both stopped and Britt was like, I just heard, you know when you lock the doors and you hear the sound of the button? I just heard her go like that. But she was still like mouthing off in the mirrors and stuff. Because he looked like he was going to get out. And then I was like, he did look quite violent. I think what I've learned is you can't road rage if you're coming up to lights. Like you can only road rage if you can get away. But I would say...

I've normally learned to control it. So I thought, right, because I've always got kids in the car. And so, you know, you've got to, you've got to be meted when you're in front of little ears. And anyway, the other day we're in, we're driving down the street and we're in like a, a road that turns into a one-way street because of roadworks at the moment. And so I've pulled up and the car in front of me has also pulled to the side. She's pulled to the side so that I can go through, but just hasn't pulled to the side enough. She's kind of just stopped in the middle of the road, but

for some reason hasn't realized how much space she's taking up. Zero spatial awareness. Yeah. So we're kind of just playing this game of chicken because I physically can't go. She's waiting for me to go and it went on for way too long. Anyway, I was getting more and more agitated because I think she looked down to do something and wasn't actually paying attention that I couldn't pass.

And the kids were like, mum, what's she doing? And I was like, I don't know. She can't drive. And they were like, why isn't she moving? And I was like, I don't know. Anyway, I went to beep her. I beep her and she looks up and she's like, oh, it's all fine. And then I hear from Lola in the back, don't worry, mum. I stuck my finger up at her.

Oh, my God. I love this child so much. Lola is four. And I was like, what? And she goes, yeah, just like you do. And I was like, yeah, Laura, kids are vacuums. I was like, when did I do that? I stuck my root finger up at her. And then I was like, sweetheart, mommy doesn't stick her root finger up at people. And then Lola, like a fucking.

a calendar went through all of the times where she's been in the back seat and she had witnessed me stick my finger up. She was like, remember that time we were driving to Auntie Alex's house? Yeah, you stuck your finger up at that black car. Hey, Mummy, remember that time we went to Woolworths? And I was like, what is this? Who are you, the FBI? Hang on, is Lola Rain Man? I was like, what is going on here?

on here and Marley's in the other seat and she's like yeah you did mom I was there I saw it too I'm definitely on Lola and Marley's side you would have done it without thinking 100% I didn't realize I'd done it and I would obviously was just mad I was like ah you know piss ah out the window I don't even think I did out the window I think I just did it in the car can you imagine being the other person in the other car and seeing a four-year-old fuck you

You couldn't not laugh. She's the best. She's so funny. She's going to be an animal. What a supportive queen. She's going to be an animal. Sometimes I really question if I'm doing a good job of parenting. Did I bring you a third into the world? Oh, God. It's all downhill from here. Oh, shit. You guys might remember a couple of weeks ago when we were having the big conversation about baby number three.

Lauren's up the duff. I am well and truly up the duff, everyone. When we had and did that episode, we did touch on something that we wanted to talk about more, but we wanted to do it in isolation and not kind of tack it onto the end of that ep. We had a really big conversation about this, Britt and I, and it's about how you navigate

conversations around pregnancy. It doesn't just have to be pregnancy, but I think a lot of these feelings do circulate along and around fertility with someone in your life who is going through their own unique fertility struggles or is at a different point in their fertility journey or motherhood journey. The reason why this came up for us is because

Britt is obviously, and like we have been the closest of friends for six years, you have known about every single pregnancy before Matt has ever known about them. Not only has Britt known about every pregnancy that I've ever had, she's also known about every miscarriage that I've had before Matt has known about it as well. Yeah, let's not send that to Matt. But it is true, but I think it also makes sense in a way that

We do see each other every day. And if we don't see each other every day, we talk every day. Yeah. I mean, I also see my husband every day as well. I know that's a weird concept. Yeah, that doesn't...

Maybe it's because I don't see mine every day, but I'm like, just so people know. No, but it's true. I remember getting in your car when I found out that I was pregnant before Lola, so the pregnancy that ended in miscarriage. And I was like to Brit, you know, far out, I think I'm pregnant, which really sent you in a bit of a tailspin at the time, just because we'd finally gotten a bit of a work schedule back. I was like, oh my God.

It's fantastic news. The reason why that was a bit of a shock was because I'm pretty sure Marley was only about eight months at the time. And so... Yeah, something shockingly soon. Like it was a very small window. But I told Britt first. She was the first person I spoke about any of this too. And then also when that ended in miscarriage, you were also the first person I spoke to about that. Do you know, I never will forget that one too. I remember how much of a non-event that conversation was. And by non-event, I mean...

And you were like, fuck, I'm miscarrying. And I was like, what? And you were like, yeah, I'm miscarrying. And I was like, fuck, that sucks. What can I do? And you were like, nothing. Just get on with it. And I just remember it being – we sat in it, but it was so, like, factual. Like, it was a part of the day. I just remember thinking, like –

There's nothing we can do in this situation. Do you mean my reaction to it? Yeah, just the way we sort of got, the way we sort of spoke about it, it was like you were, and I don't mean to say it's like you were not emotional, you were, but there was nothing left to do other than like we had the conversation. What does it look like? What do we do? What do you do? What can I do for you? Do you need to go to the hospital? But it was really like,

You were like, this is just happening. To be fair, I think I was particularly unemotional about it. And I actually think that that's like a self-preservation thing. And we've spoken about a little bit around this pregnancy. I struggle to feel connected during pregnancy and it's because I'm

There's always the expectation that I have that it could end in miscarriage. So even now, I kind of feel jealous of women who have pregnancies where they feel this like beautiful connection with their unborn child. And I don't have that. I kind of always just feel a little bit

alien to it until they're here and they're healthy and everything's turned out okay. But the reason why we wanted to have this specific conversation is because things are a little bit different this time. So I found out about having baby number three and it's come at a time where there's also been lots of conversations from you, Brit, around your fertility, around the pendulum swinging between not knowing what you want but also going through your own struggles of not getting as many embryos. And there is a lot in that to unpack. Yeah.

And I didn't feel as though I...

wanted to, or as though it was respectful to come to you with the same sort of immediacy and joy around it, because I knew that that would have an impact on you in some way. So I felt very much as though this pregnancy should be approached and managed slightly differently. And I kind of, instead of it being something that we spoke about the second it happened, I also think it was a factor that Matt wasn't here in the country either. It was

quite a while that I was processing what would be the best way to approach that conversation with you. You probably also felt like, oh, maybe I'll throw him out of bone here and give him one pregnancy before I give it to Brittany. No, do you know what it was? It was like this overwhelming feeling of guilt and

And I don't know if that's the right feeling to have had, but it was how I felt because I didn't want to expect that you would be happy for this. And I know you were going to be. I know that that's kind of like how we show up to our friendships. But at the same time, you know, we'd had conversations at the end of last year around what this year looked like in terms of our business, in terms of planning for kids, you

I'd mentioned I wanted to have a third. You mentioned that you wanted to also have a baby and it was like a scheduling nightmare as well. And so I was like, how do we approach this in a way that feels sensitive? And it was something that I felt like we really had to consider. Yeah.

Yeah, and this is so layered. Like this conversation, and I think for a lot of people, it's like an onion. You can peel it back and back and back until you get to its core and the onion makes you cry along the way. That's my fertility analogy is an onion. But I don't even know where to start. I appreciate that you had so much more consideration around it and I think it's something that people do need to consider. But funnily enough, if I'm being really honest with myself and how I felt in that situation, I

It made me sadder that you felt you couldn't tell me. Like I can, these things can run concurrently. I can appreciate.

that you were like, okay, this hits a bit different with this third pregnancy and where Brittany's at. And I appreciate that. And I think it's very considerate as a friend, but then it hurt me so much more. Not you didn't hurt me. It hurt me that a friend felt like they couldn't have their happiness because of, they were so worried about how I would react. And that might not be a normal feeling for other people. Maybe you can't understand that. But I remember going home being like,

oh, like that crushes me to think that my friends can't sit in their happiness because they're so worried about my happiness. And the thought of you being at home, being like worried and like, I don't know how to tell her, you know, that to me was more impactful than the fact that you felt pregnant. But that's a personal thing. That was just how I felt. Probably our situation has some unique parts to it because it was also, yeah. And I think because we're business partners and there's so much more to this, like having kids obviously has an impact.

it's really tricky to get your head around, okay, well, what's the right time to do something? And also, I guess for me, I was like, do I need to have a third child? Is that selfish having a third kid when I already have two amazingly healthy, wonderful little children? But then there also was this like unfinished journey

and I guess unfinished feeling around motherhood for me. You know, some people talk about motherhood and they say like, I had that baby and I knew my family was complete. Yeah. And I have never had that feeling. But I also knew I was going to be aged out of the possibility of it happening. You know, I'm 30. I'll be 40 a couple of months after this baby's born. Really? Aren't you 20, 39? Have you just aged yourself up here? No, I'm 10, 40 next year.

Are you 40 next year? Yeah. Can that happen quick? I'm 39. Blink twice. I'm 40 in March next year. So for me, I know that, you know, if we were to delay it another year, I'd be having a baby in my 40s, which is just a different kettle of fish. Loads of women do it. This is not me trying to, you know, perpetuate the fear around having later pregnancies. But I also know that it comes with another degree of perpetuation.

potential issues. So I guess I was like, well, if I'm going to have a third, it probably has to be this year. Otherwise I feel like that window might be closed for me. No, and I get that too, because the aged out feeling is what I feel constantly. I haven't started, you know, I'm 38 soon in two months and I haven't started. I,

I was so happy for you in a moment and like there was nothing. I don't even think we talked about work or logistics or anything that day in that moment. Yeah, we didn't. And I was, and I am and was stoked for you. There's so much that comes with it, but I did go home that day and cry to Ben. Not for any other reason than like, oh, it's just a reminder that sometimes it's easy for other people and not for you and

And, you know, you go down the, Ben's been really quiet. He's been the better person in this, in our fertility journey in terms of positivity. And I need to change that. I coat it as being realistic, but it's not. I think it's negative. You're very negative. I'm very negative, but I think I'm doing that

to shelter myself from if it doesn't ever happen. Like there's just a part of me that feels like, and I'm like with that, with everything in life, whether it's an audition or a job or whatever it's ever been, I always expect the bare minimum so I can only be surprised and happy. And, you know, instead of being let down, I've always done that. And so I think that I even said it to my fertility doctor a week ago, you know, I said, okay, cool. So we've got three embryos. So we know that 50% of that's not great. So it's not looking great.

And she's like, well, no, it is looking great. Like you still have three. So you need to start to talk like that. But Ben's very much like, I was like, it's never going to happen for us. Is it like everyone else just happened so quickly? And he's like, babe, it will happen. He's like, and you, if you keep putting this out to the world and I need to take my own advice, but he's been the better person. Whereas I'm really trying to protect myself and be like, whatever, like,

we'll be fine it's like we don't even really want them anyway which is not true but I keep saying that but also I do think that that's a very relatable thing and and I think a lot of women who and I don't want to put this into pigeonholes there's obviously so many women who decide not to have children and they're childless by choice we've spoken about that a million times that is not what this conversation is about though so I don't want anyone to feel invalidated we have we

absolutely had very in-depth conversations about the liberty that comes with women who choose not to have kids and that is a conscious choice. On the flip side of that, there are women who want to have children but have a protection mechanism around themselves who say, I don't know if kids are for me. And the reason for that is also because they are not sure if they're able to have them.

So it's easier to say, well, I don't know if it's for me because it creates this protective bubble. It's the same thing that I do with pregnancy saying, well, this will probably end in miscarriage. It is a way of preparing your brain for something that is a possibility. It's not like it's out of the remit. It's not like it's never happened before. And I guess like the reason why we wanted to talk about this is because

It is a very natural part of so many female friendships where one person is having the things that another person in that friendship wants. And it's that duality being able to hold space for the happiness of your friend that also...

to feel the complex feelings of sadness yourself. And I think like so many people will go through it at different points of their friendships. And just because you might be at a different point or whatever it is to your friends doesn't mean that you can't hold space for them and still continue on with incredible friendships so long as it's navigated sensitively. Definitely in the age group that we're talking about now, Laura, like obviously it can happen at any age. But when you get to our age of like mid-30s to late-30s,

it's when it does become increasingly harder for women for different reasons. Maybe they're going into early menopause, maybe they don't have a partner and it's not necessarily childless by choice, but they being what we call aged out. Yeah. And, and aged out sounds like such a yucky term, but it's true. Like I have friends and I have been talking about this with

you know, actually two particular friends in the last week that feel like they are being aged out. They are not in relationships. They don't want to go down the journey by themselves. Like they want, and that's just their choice, right? There are lots of people that do and that's okay, but they wanted the family unit. They obviously don't want it enough to go down the journey by themselves, but they did see a family with a partner. And

they're coming to this internal understanding, I guess, where they're saying, hey, maybe I need to start to think that it might not happen because they haven't met the right person yet. And there's so many people I know that are in that situation. That's even harder because that's something that

I guess life is taking away from you. Like, I mean, I don't want to say harder. It's different. There are so many reasons people can't have children and it's not harder for one, you know, people that have fertility issues. It is equally as hard as people that really want it but haven't been able to find that journey. Like they just look different, but I don't want to take that pain away from any individual person. And obviously our situation, Laura, is...

is unique because I don't know how many people listening right now would be in a situation where they're in business with a friend or a sister that are wanting to have pregnancies at the same time. But I think it relates to career as well. Like a lot of women, us included, definitely me, I don't want to speak for you, but I have put off kids,

because of my career for sure. Like there's moments where I thought maybe things were about to take off or a job was about to happen and that would take me into the next year. And I was like, well, I can't get pregnant then because I can't do that. And that's important to me. And I want to focus on that. And there's definitely women that put off children because of career issues. I guess like the big thing that I really wanted to talk about

with you, Britt, is and you've spoken about a little bit in terms of fertility and the pendulum swinging between not knowing exactly what you want but potentially that being a cloak of armour and protection. How do you navigate this feeling of being in a

I guess, fertility purgatory or being in what, you know, can be described as like the waiting room of motherhood when it is something that, you know, you want, but you can't logistically do it at the moment because you're here and Ben is there and there's other factors at play. Yeah. And I have been in fertility purgatory for a long time.

It's interesting because I still try to figure it out and I try to figure out my thoughts and what they mean, why I feel that way or why I say these things. And so I'm 37, 38 in August and I have 15 eggs and three embryos.

Did I feel better once I froze those? Yes. It helped me a lot. Like it took a lot of pressure off my shoulders about, I guess, the time constraints that I had and like when I had to make the decision. Now, I don't want to ever say that and make anyone think that it is foolproof. We've done episodes on it and we will do more episodes on it. I'm sure once I actually start

Again, the fertility journey, we'll talk about it a lot. But it is not a guarantee. Having eggs and embryos is not a guarantee that it's going to give you a baby, but it definitely helps and it definitely helps to give you –

a decision down the track, you know, at least an option. If you don't do them, you don't have the option. So that's the way I look at it. For me, I felt 10 times better having frozen them. I know that I have used it as like the cloak of armor, as you just said, to, I guess, protect myself in case it doesn't happen. Then I've always sort of said, well, I didn't know anyway, like, and I know I'll be fine without them. I'll know I'll be happy without them. And the reason, the way that I've been trying to consolidate my thoughts is when I look into the future, do I see a life

without kids and do I think it will be okay? And the answer is no. Do I feel ready to have them now? No. And that has always been my issue. And I think I'm just realizing that I'm never going to be ready. I feel like I'm 21. If I was living with Ben right now, I think would be well and truly down that journey because it would seem like the natural thing to do and I would feel supported.

I have anxiety attacks thinking about how I'm going to do it because there is so much that needs to happen to do it. And I think a lot of people would relate to this.

When you are having to do IVF and you're maybe unsure about it, and I've spoken about this or we spoke about it a little bit with Erin Holland as well because she's going down that path and not having a lot of luck, but she's also feeling like she's been pushed into doing it because of her age as well. Like she loves her career as well, prioritizing it, but she's like, okay, I've got to the point where I need to do it.

It's an unusual thing because it would be obviously, I'm stating the obvious, but it'd be so much easier. And I just want to fall naturally because I'm worried I'm never going to pull the trigger on booking a date in for IVF. It's different. It is different to say next week on Tuesday, I'm going to get pregnant. Like that's just a different thing because the time comes and when you're in control of it to that level, it's

And I worry that I'll never actually just book it in and lock it in and make that decision. I just wish that I could fall naturally, obviously, like every woman does, but so that that choice is taken from me and I don't have to lock in the exact day and time and go in. So it's a real decision fatigue for me. There's different kinds of waiting rooms for people, waiting rooms for fertility and pregnancy. Some are physiological and some are psychological. Some are both.

For me, I am saying my waiting room is about I haven't been able to fall naturally, which I really need to do for my psychological side because my psychological side says there's never a right time. Now's not the right time. Wait a little bit longer. Yeah. But for other people, some of them psychologically absolutely know and it can't happen. And that is because for whatever reason, your body is not allowing it to.

That is a different conversation again with your friends and there's so many different ways to navigate it. And I know you've had to navigate it multiple times, Laws, with people in your life. Yeah, but we've also spoken to people. I mean, Chloe Fisher came on the podcast and talked about not having an understanding as to why she was experiencing infertility. Tanya Hennessy was another person who recently we spoke to around her fertility and her experiences with endometriosis and how that's affected her.

And she's really vocal about it on social media. It was interesting the way she spoke about it because she was like, I've become this pinup person for this thing because I'm speaking so vocally about it. This thing you never want to be the pinup person for, but it allows other people who are experiencing the same thing to feel validation and to feel comfort in that. The big thing that Tanya said, which I really appreciated,

admire and I also think when we talk about navigating these conversations with friendships and how do you speak to your friends who are at a different life stage and especially when you're worried about being the root cause of their pain or hurt and

The thing is, is if someone is struggling with infertility or they have gone through miscarriages, they are acutely aware that that is something that they are struggling with and not telling them that you're pregnant or not including them in the things that you're experiencing doesn't shelter them from the pain. It only adds to the exclusion. Not only are they excluded from the feelings of motherhood, they're also excluded.

from the feelings of friendship as well. And, you know, I had a really interesting conversation with a woman who I met at a hotel once and Marley was playing with her. Marley was like really had kind of latched onto this woman next to the pool. And I apologized to her. I was like, I told you guys about this story. If you might remember, I apologized to her because I was like, oh, the last thing you want on your lovely holiday is to have my four-year-old climbing all over you and telling you about the Taylor Swift concert.

And it turns out this woman was actually a lifer and she said it's pure joy to be able to share your daughter with you for this short period of time. And she had a little daughter herself who had died of a brain tumour only 12 months earlier. It's going to make me sad even repeating this. But she said the hardest thing in the –

time since her daughter had passed away, she said was no longer being seen as a mum and being excluded from the things that mums get to do with their kids. She's like, I no longer get to go to the birthday parties because no one invites me. Because people think they're protecting you, but it's in fact hurting you. Yeah. And she said, you know, I no longer get invited to the things that I would have been invited to had my daughter still been alive.

And she said, I understand the grief is almost too much for other people to deal with. You know, you don't want to be responsible for what it is that she's going through. But she's like, it's this real exclusionary thing that happens. The same thing happens with fertility. You know, people don't get invited to baby showers or they're the last person to find out about a pregnancy. And it's this constant feeling that not only do you not have the baby, but you're also sheltered from all the other things that

that would experience joy with your friendship. And I guess like for us, and that was a big conversation we had off the back of it, Britt,

When I told you I was pregnant, everyone was happy, but there were also tears in that as well. And I think that that's okay. It's all right to have and hold that space for your friend. And I'd love to know how other people have navigated this with their friends. For people who have had multiple miscarriages, I had a similar situation with another girlfriend that I felt had to be navigated quite sensitively because she was going through and had been through her own miscarriages.

fertility struggles. She was pregnant and I wanted to know that the pregnancy that she was currently experiencing was safe and was going to stick and she wasn't going to go through another version of loss that she'd already experienced so many times after years and years and years of trying for a baby. I didn't want to show up and be like, here I am, baby number three. But at the same time, I didn't want her to feel as though I'd left her out of the conversation simultaneously. It's a fucking hard thing to navigate because it's so incredibly complex. Yeah.

You can't blanket statement this, but I think when to answer people's question of like what is the best way to navigate these conversations with your friends, of course it is with consideration and delicacy and care. But I don't personally believe it is making them the last person to know because you're unsure of how they're going to feel. I think that that can actually be worse. It isolates them a little bit more like,

It almost makes the person feel like there's such a burden on someone else's life that, you know, I think the best way to do it is to include them the same way you do everything. But the conversation looks a little different. They don't have to be the last to know. You still invite them to all of the baby things, but you just have the conversation a little different. Hey, I need to talk to you. I know this is going to be really hard.

for you, but I'm pregnant and I know it hasn't been easy for you, but you are such a huge important part of my life and, you know, I want to make sure you're okay and you understand. But for me personally, other people might feel different. The answer is not to make them the last person to know. I think the reason why some people do that is because...

we don't like discomfort ourselves. We're actually not doing it to protect the other person. And I think if you unpick those sorts of feelings, we're not doing it because we don't want to upset the friend. We're doing it because we don't like the discomfort. I think it's both. Yes, I do. But I do think that there is a period where it shifts beyond it being about,

for your friend or care for the person who's experiencing loss and grief. And it actually becomes about, I don't want to have to manage those feelings. I don't want to have to be responsible for the feelings of hurt because most, and I would say the vast majority of people are not going to react negatively to that kind of news. They might be really, really hurt. They might even mute you for a while because they don't want to see it showing up on their Instagram. But at least you gave them the opportunity to have their own feelings and reactions about it rather than,

of denying them the opportunity to feel about something that you're all experiencing. Do you think there's an element of guilt about having fertility privilege? I know that that's like a little bit of a full-on way to look at it, but I think there could be an element of people kind of going like, I was fortunate enough to be able to, you know, have this thing that I really wanted that this person really wants and I feel...

feel bad about the fact that I have this privilege that they don't, you know? And I guess that's just, it's just, there's nothing you can do about it. Like it's such an uncontrollable situation, but I wonder whether one of those emotions that you're saying that people don't want to feel is actually an element of guilt. I mean, and look, it probably sounds very formal, but like we do do a bit of a prep sheet for these things that we talk about. And one of the questions, Keish, that you put in here, you said, do you ever feel guilt around your fertility or growing family knowing not everyone can have the same experience? Yeah.

Which as friends having this discussion feels like an extremely like full-on question to answer. I felt weird writing that because I was like, I don't know if that's the word, but I can't think of a word that actually describes the emotion other than that. Totally. And I also, I wanted to read it because I think it is an incredibly powerful question in itself. Do I personally feel guilt about having a third baby? Guilt's probably not the right word for it, but I do feel as though

I owe it to other women who experience miscarriage to talk about my pregnancies alongside miscarriage. I have never not spoken about miscarriage because for me, it is just such an integrated part of my pregnancy, not just because it's happened twice, but because it's also psychologically something that affects me on the daily. This might be too much information, but I had quite a bit of bleeding last week. We were in records and I went to the bathroom and

had a lot of bleeding, like enough to be worried about it. And I obviously contacted my obstetrician and did all that sort of stuff. But I came back into records and you guys like understandably were also very worried about it. Like go to the hospital, go get checked. Yeah. And I...

I guess for me, it all kind of ties back into this feeling of disassociation a little bit. I haven't allowed myself to get deeply excited about this pregnancy because I never feel as though they're permanent. And when I do talk about pregnancy, I think, you know, even though I am having number three, speaking about miscarriage has always been part of my pregnancy conversation because I would hate for someone to look in and be like, oh, here she is having another baby. Yeah.

And it's so easy for them when absolutely we have, you know, and I'm so grateful for having two beautifully healthy kids. And in some aspects it has been easy, but at the same time, we've also had our own moments and challenges along the way as well, because it's just a very fucking normal part of having children. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess like, you know, I'm not saying it's a healthy way to be about pregnancy, but it's a very pragmatic and realistic way to be. And it is definitely gives me mental security around it.

I do think you'd be hard done by to find a woman now that has not been in this situation in some capacity on one side or another, because we know how many issues are around women falling pregnant now and how many fertility issues are showing their ugly heads. Now that women are more educated about things like PCOS and endometriosis, and now we're talking about it more, we speak more about miscarriage.

courage you'd be hard done by to find someone that has not been on one of those sides and this is why these conversations are so important to have with your friends because feelings can run concurrently you can be really happy for your own pregnancy and feel horrible for a friend or how you're going to tell a friend or confused feelings of guilt but you're not sure if they're guilt like it is a really confusing time I

I do think if there's anything we can learn from these conversations, it's that the best thing to do is have honest conversations with your friends and know that they are going to be difficult conversations in some capacity, but it's okay to have them. Yeah. And also I think like not feeling like you're a bad person if it does come to a point where you have to mute people on Instagram because it is affecting you and it's too upsetting for you. You're allowed to create space around yourself to protect yourself and

And that those feelings exist on both sides, exactly as you described, Britt, the guilt that one person can feel for being happy and excited and all of those feelings around pregnancy and their excitement, but also the sadness that someone can feel who doesn't have the things that they want in their life. Those are very complex feelings and they are all okay at the end of the day. Like it's okay to have that spectrum. I know that there are a lot of people who are going to be listening to this who are

experiencing or have been through very similar situations to this. I am so interested to know how did being in different fertility stages affect your friendships? How did you navigate this? Have you ever had a huge falling out because of your life situation versus your friends? You know, like if you guys have had similar experiences to this, like please slide into our DMs and let us know what that looked like for you. Because it's,

It's an ever-evolving conversation, honestly, and it's something we talk about a lot, not just from a work perspective but actually from a friend perspective. And, yeah, I would love to know how other people show up in their friendships when these conversations feel incredibly hard. Well, that is it from us, guys. Please keep all your questions coming in to Life Uncut Podcasts

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