How To Spot A Liar & Handle Difficult People. Uncut with Jefferson Fisher
50:52 Share

This episode was recorded on Camaragal land. Hi, guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. And I'm Keisha. Now, over the last couple of months, we have had lots of conversations around communication. We did an episode on super communication recently, and I would say our response to 99.9% of your Ask Uncut questions that come in is that you have to communicate, which is

Can sound really arbitrary if you don't know how to do it well. And I think the unfortunate thing is, is that so many of us think that we're very good at communicating and it's always the other person's fault. Or maybe that's just me and my relationship issues.

But no, honestly, I think it's something that we are often told we need to be skilled at, but are not necessarily given the skills to improve it. And what does make someone an excellent communicator versus someone who really struggles with either getting a story across, saying sorry, being defensive. And these are things that you can apply to everyday aspects of your life, whether it be work, but it's also something that really shows up obviously in relationships and can become a real pinch point with the people who you love the most. Yeah.

So today's conversation, now bear with me because this might sound a little bit left of field. We are speaking to Jefferson Fisher. He's a trial lawyer who you might know as the guy who records videos from his car all about how to communicate during life's everyday, very awkward situations and arguments. Now Jefferson's amassed a huge following. It's 5.8 million followers online. He's got a book out titled The Next Conversation and it's his tried and true strategies to deal with difficult people and tough situations.

This is also something which I think so many of us can put into practice in terms around how to feel and sound more confident when we are communicating, but also other strategies like how to use silence as a tool and also how to respond to someone when you are in a situation where what they've said has been incredibly hurtful or you are in the midst of conflict, but how to deal with it better. Jefferson, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome. We just kind of put you on the spot and asked you what your actually unfiltered story was, and you looked kind of scared and blank for a second. But we do start every episode the same way, and that is with your most embarrassing story. And something happened to you when you were a kid. You're still dealing with the trauma. Yeah, still dealing with the trauma of it. So when I was in third grade, so I was maybe seven, eight,

I was on the top of the bleachers at my little elementary's Christmas program. And I was one of the tallest kids and I had big, huge glasses, like big, big glasses. Even one of my nose pads had broken off so I had to get like a piece of tape. Like it was kind of Harry Potter-esque of me just having this, just holding these things together.

And we might have been in the song, probably away in the manger or something with reindeer. And I had locked my knees. I didn't know that you shouldn't lock your knees. And all of a sudden, I'm standing up here singing and my breath got real heavy. And I could tell something was wrong. All of a sudden, I felt really sad. I felt something's not going right. And I was looking around like, is anybody else feeling this way?

And before I knew it, everything went black and I fell forward. And in the middle of this Christmas program, I just knocked down all the kids. Like it was just a domino. Like a bowling ball. Yeah. Like if you've seen like Home Alone where somebody falls and they're on a program and we just, all the kids just went in a line.

And so they had to stop the program, of course, and like carry me off. I don't think you're the first person who's had a similar story to this. I'm like having vague recollections now of a very like old, accidentally unfiltered of someone who may passed out during choir. Yeah. I think that this is common. I think this happens. Maybe it's to do with like...

being up at a high and having to sing horrible hymns. And the anxiety of it. Yeah, no, you're not supposed to lock your knees. Like when you lock your knees, you keep blood from flowing.

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what it was. At least that's what I was told my whole life. And I just have at least that, that it wasn't my anxiety. It was me locking my knees. I'm telling myself that. That's what we're going with. I mean, you're the expert. So we're here to believe everything you say anyway. You could tell me anything right now and I'll say yes. Perfect. Because you're only told. The pressure is different up there. That's true. Yeah, different altitude. Jefferson,

When I went through the first part of your book, I got the impression you felt as though your destiny was kind of written for you by the people in your family and the fact that they had all kind of followed in the same path. Yeah. And I was curious about whether it was a passion that was kind of bred into you to become a lawyer or whether it was something that you kind of, you just thought, well, I've got to follow in the family footsteps. Yeah. I never felt like it was a requirement. I never felt like it was an obligation. Yeah.

It was something I was excited about. Now, I will tell you of my line in my family, of my generation, I'm the only attorney and there's not another attorney beneath me either. I just had a really unique experience where I got to see a lot of that. And it felt as if like, no, this is what I'm supposed to do. And that felt like a calling that certainly felt like there's my purpose. But I mean, I had the freedom to go do whatever.

whatever I wanted to do. I went to business school at the University of Texas here. And then when I got to law school, law school felt way easier than college for me. It's just naturally, maybe through osmosis, I absorbed a lot more of that information. It just felt natural to me. I mean, something else that's obviously seems to be something that's come natural to you is this idea and the art of communication and the art of storytelling. And

Can you talk to me about how you found that being a very good storyteller has linked into what you're doing for an occupation and how you finessed that skill over the years? Well, one, I grew up hearing a lot of wonderful communicators and storytellers. Any trial attorney, they're

They're storytellers. And to be able to advocate for your client, you have to tell and weave a story for the jury or the judge. And so you have to be able to present facts in a way that are persuasive, that are captivating, that are not boring. And most of all, you have to find a way to take a lot of information and synthesize it down. So you might have boxes and boxes and boxes of information, but you can't just show a jury to say, hey, read every page of this.

You have to find captivating ways to describe it, tell them why it's important. So a lot of my job is because I take like a book and I have to turn it into two sentences. So I have to find ways to synthesize and shorten information that it's very memorable, that it's bite-sized and it feels like, okay,

I got this. I grew up watching storytellers, the way that they can begin a sentence through everything in between. You're absolutely captivated by it and you get taken on this journey. We love stories as humans. We love a good story. It wasn't until I started sharing a lot of them and teaching my clients after I became an attorney where I would see how they were responding into situations. And so I take a break and go, hey, the next time they say that,

say this. And then they would, and it turned out way different. Or I'd say, hey, the next time this happens, don't respond. Just wait about 10 seconds. And all of a sudden it will work and have a totally different outcome. And I began to go, okay, there's something to this of me helping my clients. And that's what helped a lot of my business as a trial attorney grow really well. Have you ever in practice, whether it be for your own client, or maybe you've just heard a story of someone else's in court where you've

thought that if they were better at storytelling, the outcome or the verdict, I suppose, could have been very, very different, you know, like where the facts were potentially actually quite solid, but it was their storytelling that ended up letting them down? Yes. The truth will only come out as much as you advocate for it. So I could have all the right facts in a case, but if I can't persuasively tell you those facts, it won't matter.

So you might have an attorney who is not a good communicator, who's not good at telling stories to the jury because you're almost compelled to. They have something called opening argument where you're going to tell the jury what this case is about and what all your evidence is going to show and why you should fine for their client. If you can't do that persuasively,

you're going to lose because they don't know where you're going. They don't know why your facts matter. They don't know why your evidence matters. So you have to present it in a way that's going to be effective. I've absolutely seen it where my facts were not nearly as good as the other attorney. And we still had a wonderful result for the client because we just communicated what we needed better than the other person. Some people on the other side, their whole purpose is to beat you up.

That's not the purpose because they have it wrong. The jury doesn't care about that. The jury is your audience. So it's always the question of who's your audience, who's the decision maker. That's who you need to talk to. I find it very interesting, like the association between what you do for work, but also like this is what we do in relationships when we're having an argument. Like we're trying to win an argument. We're trying to get our point across, but sometimes we're not really listening to what's being said back to us. I'm in the depths of it with my partner right now. So this feels very close to home.

But when it comes to communicating, when there is conflict or there is a disagreement around something, how do you know the difference between when you're arguing to win or when you're having a conversation to win something versus having a conversation to come to a resolution? Who you're saying it for.

Are you saying it for yourself so you can hear it and then go, oh, that sounded good? Are you saying it for the other person to help them understand a little bit more? What we mostly do in arguments is we try to us intelligent, smart people, quick witted. We want to come up with the zinger. Like we want to have the gotcha moment where we pull together this poetic response that's just going to bury them once and for all in conversation. And that never happens.

Like you say the hard thing that you think is going to win. Speak for yourself, Jefferson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. This is, it's all me. No, it's true. I mean, this is a hard truth. I'm swallowing the pill right now. Sometimes I think I have zines. Yeah, you go into it wanting to win. And what I teach is you need to have something to learn, not something to prove.

And when you try to always win the argument, all you're doing is like what we talked about as bad trial attorney. You're just beating up the other side. You're not trying to convince and persuade and give your point clearly so that others can understand it. It's easy to get stuck in this echo chamber where you're just saying it to say it. Like you've heard probably in friends that go, I just have to say like, no, you don't.

No, you really don't. You're just saying it so that everybody goes, you are so smart. That's why you're saying it. You're not saying it to aid the conversation. You're saying it for your self-gratification. You're listening to respond. And it is an easy way to just slowly lose the relationship. If you only see arguments as something to win, you will lose the relationship every time. That's why I write in my book, Never Win an Argument. It

It's only going to hurt you and hurt your credibility and most importantly, hurt the connection with the other person. What does winning an argument look like to you? Winning means I said that one thing that went too far. That's what typically happens. You and I are in an argument, let's say, and we're getting escalated. I am going to get frustrated that you're not receiving my point. You're going to get frustrated that I'm not receiving your point. And eventually somebody will say something that's hurtful.

crosses the line that's below the belt that puts the other person down so the other person wants out of it they want to leave they want to hang up the phone they want to leave the room it's just the fight or flight in real time and micro moments there in that conversation you're either wanting to say a hurtful word say a cutting word or you're wanting to to leave the conversation eventually that happens and whoever is left there standing most of the time is self-proclaimed the winner

Oh, you left. Oh, I guess you don't want to be in this conversation. But you're the one that said the hurtful thing that made me want to leave in the first place. That is most of the time what we see as a win. Because if it's truly a, I want to understand your point and I want to understand my point. There's no sense of win. It's a sense of understanding and connection and acknowledgement that

You're not trying to get that hit of going, oh, yes, I got it. That was such a good zinger. That felt so good. I really told them off.

That moment doesn't last very long. When we're in these conflicts, like as much of the research that we have done, as many of these kinds of conversations that I have and I'm able to objectively say, okay, this is what I should do in an argument. This is the better way for me to converse with my partner if we're having conflict and that kind of thing. When you're in it, it can feel so hard to park your emotions. And I think a little bit of it is ego as well. Parking your ego, parking the emotions, right?

Because you can just be so enraged with the fact that, you know, what you have to say in your perspective is the right perspective and you just want them to listen to you. What are some of your tips on toning down that emotion or like what are some of the practical things that we can do in that moment to change the trajectory of the conflict? Number one, use your breath. Let your breath be the first word that you say.

If you just all you're thinking of what is what you're going to say next, that means you weren't listening to them. You weren't listening to understand. You were simply listening for your time at bat for you to get to swing at them and say that hurtful thing or something that's going to be cutting to them. But when you use your breath,

It allows you to keep that logical side, that analytical side in, and you don't get emotionally flooded because that's what really happens. You say something, we have that difficult miscommunication, and all of a sudden I need to beat you down. All you're doing is just pushing them away because that's what you want to do, really, without you thinking of it. Two, aside from your breath, it's slowing your words down. If I speed up my words really fast, it's going to create more anxiety.

and it's gonna be hard to hear like if you were to play this podcast on three times the speed it's gonna be hard to catch things it's gonna get kind of anxious of like wait what did i miss what i do versus when you slow things down you get to become intentional and you get to become methodical i'm showing you that i'm not being pushed around in any conversation i'm taking my time i'm the one not you that controls the pace of this conversation so just because you said something

Does not mean I have to respond. I'm in complete control of whether I say anything or I just let what you said go by and I don't have to say anything to it. Three, it's adding distance between what they said and how you respond. So anytime when somebody sends you that rapid text or the text that you don't like,

Problems happen when you just reply immediately. You're not thinking about it. Your emotions are right there at the forefront. You're not giving your breath enough time to calm you down and calm your nervous system down and get out of that ignition mode. Like anytime you respond to something the next day, you really don't care about it as much as you did the day before.

Or maybe the week after you're like, I don't, this wasn't even that big of a deal. But yet at that moment, it really was. So when you can add distance and even if it says, Hey, you and I are in a hard conversation. If I say, I can tell I'm getting really upset right now. I like to continue this conversation. And this afternoon, that right there is emotionally intelligent. That right there says, I'm going to make sure I stay in control the whole time.

I find this very, very interesting because I think the problem is, is like when you come into conflict, usually it's both people are not showing up at 100%. Like no one person is completely at fault. Often it's both people are mutually not communicating in a way that's conducive to a healthy relationship.

But sometimes there are instances where you might be getting gaslit. You might be being lied to. Like there are times where one person technically is at fault and that's where the conflict has arisen from. What are your tips when you are in a situation where you know the person you're speaking to is lying to you or you know that the person you're speaking to is trying to manipulate what you're saying or what you're doing? The biggest key anytime somebody is lying to you or trying to manipulate you

is to begin going with what they're saying and starting to confront it every single step of the way instead of letting them kind of manipulate themselves in their own circle. So we kind of become the cat and they have the laser pointer where they bring up a story. Let's say you and I are fighting over what happened last night at dinner.

And you go, that's not what happened. I go, yes, yes, it did. And I have to construct the whole narrative again to make it sound like it's me. Like you've been with those people that are like, don't you remember you said this? And then I said this and they're trying to twist it every single step of the way. One thing to do when somebody is lying to you is a lot of silence.

There's a reason why, number one, like we said, it controls your nervous system. You stay with your mind at the forefront. More importantly, it makes the liar nervous because they see you're not going with them. You're not the cat and they have the laser pointer. You're not leaving and trying to say, that's not what happened. No, that's not what happened. And trying to correct every single lie that they are intentionally trying to manipulate and put in your way.

Instead, you're just given that silence. What a lot of times liars do, I see this a lot in my own experience as a trial attorney, is there's a lot of people who lie on the oath or in a deposition, is when you stay quiet,

they start to talk to themselves in their own head and it starts to drive them crazy. And so they will start to talk out loud of like, I mean, I wouldn't do that. Why would I do that? I mean, that's crazy. And they start to kind of convince themselves out loud or they kind of start walking back a little bit. So if I were to ask a witness, did you see the red car? And they say, no, no, I never saw the red car. And I just let that slide. They're going to get nervous.

because they're in a lie, they might say, well, I mean, I might've saw it. I don't know. And then if I give them an out to say, I mean, it's okay if you did see the red car. Then they're like, I mean, yeah, I think I did. I did see it. I do that with my son. My son, I brush his teeth. How old is your son? He's seven. I have a five-year-old and a seven-year-old. A seven-year-old son, five-year-old daughter. I'll be like, did you brush your teeth? He'll be like, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'll look at him and go, you brushed your teeth?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Brush my teeth. And then I'll just give it some silence and I'll go, it's okay if you didn't brush your teeth, you can go, you can go brush them right now. Okay. I'm going to go brush my teeth. Like that's like, that is the thing right there. It's like, you have to give them the, it's okay if you did. It's okay if you did. Yeah. Because that's what they're really looking for. That's why they're lying because they don't feel like they're going to be accepted in that moment. Depends what you're talking about, of course.

But in that moment, they're lying because they don't feel like you're going to be receptive of who they are in that moment. So if you say it's okay, it's okay if you did. Like we can continue to talk about this. It's a tricky one because the example you're using is like people are lying because they don't want to be in trouble. They don't want to be wrong. They don't want to disappoint you. But then you also have people who lie because they're trying to actually deceive you. Would you say that the technique is the same regardless?

regardless I also find it interesting when kids get to the age that they can lie my kids are five and they've just figured it out as well oh yeah they love it they love the thing to try and navigate oh my goodness yeah they love to lie but they're so bad at it that's the problem yeah well let me tell you what mine is very good at it he's very good at it but no the the method is not the same when somebody's intentionally trying to hurt you deceive you a phrase that I like to

teach all of my people is that use the phrase, I remember that differently.

Or I see that differently. And then you just stick with that phrase right there. They're going to try and move you off your footing. They're going to say, well, what about this? Or that's not what happened. Or I mean, you're just insane. You know how crazy you are right now to believe that everybody, and they're going to try and come at it a lot of different ways. But if you just stand still and say, I remember that differently, you can disagree with me. Like even if you say you can disagree with me. No, it's fine. You can disagree with me. I remember that differently.

It's going to drive them nuts is what it's going to do. And what happens is the angrier they get, the reason why is because you're not going with what they're saying. That's why some people that are in the worst of arguments, they resort to physical violence because they cannot control you with their words and their verbal violence. So instead, they will amp it up for that sense of control because they realize they're not getting it with what they're saying. My main takeaway from your whole book and a lot of the content that you create is that you have quite...

a really interesting way to shift the power in whether it be conflict or any type of conversation. And, um,

I was really curious about your response to if you're in a dynamic where someone has said something offensive to you or even deliberately hurtful, whether it be like a family member at Christmas time or whether it be someone in your workplace that, you know, you're in the lunchroom and there's a couple of people around and they'll throw this jab at you. How is it best to respond to them in that situation? Begin with the phrase, did you mean?

Did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean to hurt my feelings? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? A lot of different ways that did you mean is extremely effective and it's effective immediately because they're saying things more often than not. They're saying things that put the spotlight on you.

How are you going to react? What are you going to say? People that are emotionally flooded will give them exactly what they want. They're going to give that emotional response. It's going to give that other person that hit a dopamine. Ah, I got that sense of control out of you. They feel pleasure from giving you pain because there are people that are already in pain. So the best way to alleviate it is to see pain and create pain in somebody else.

And so when you can ask the question, did you say that to hurt me? Did you say that to disrespect me? Did you say that to offend me? It is a very quick way of putting the spotlight immediately back on them. Like it's some kind of weird jujitsu move because you're not confronting it. You're not going blow for blow. You are like being like water, right? You're moving it out of the way without even doing anything by simply just asking, did you mean for that to upset me?

And now they're the ones with the spotlight on it. And now they're the ones that have to respond. And the good thing about did you mean is sometimes the other person actually didn't mean to be rude. Like on a text message, if somebody just texted K, which by the way, I think if you text that in any relationship, you might as well just dig your grave because something is terribly wrong. Right?

You just, you might as well pick out your gravestone if I respond with K. But the point of it is sometimes if you just take things personally of how they looked in that moment or sent you that message and you just decided they sounded rude,

Like a real quick way to fix that is to text. Did you mean for that to be short? No, no, no, no. I didn't. And they might respond. No, no, no, not at all. I'm just, you know, I'm busy. I'm picking up the kids with the carpool, blah, blah, blah. But now you relieved yourself of taking that on and feeling, oh my gosh, so-and-so hates me. They don't like me right now. That did you mean is a great way of clicking that in.

I like what you just mentioned and it makes me think of like this idea that sometimes we interpret the way that someone said something or the thing that someone said. Like we interpret it in the way that we do for whatever's going on in our life and we're not always right. Like the interpretation of something doesn't mean that it's fact. How do you navigate those situations where maybe –

it has been a misunderstanding or maybe the tone hasn't matched the tone that the person meant to deliver it in. But we've taken that as like a real personal attack on ourselves. Yeah. I would say most of the time we don't get it right. And rarely it's a message that is sent, the message received. And the problem is when you say something that I have chosen to take personally, you say something maybe in a text message and I go, Oh, okay, well that's, that's rude. Okay. Um,

I then consider it rude. And then I'm now going to respond something to you that's a little bit more...

Rough. Yeah. Rude back. Now I'm going to say something because I'm now being defensive. Okay, fine. And then now you are going to respond right to that. And now it's like if self-fulfilling prophecy is what I call it, I'm now confirming myself that yes, I am under attack from them. It's simply because of what I chose to the filter that I gave it under. And what I like to say is it is.

How often you take something personally is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people. If you're always carrying the weight

of somebody's reaction or how you always see the negative and what they're doing, you're not going to have a happy life. I mean, you put it in basic terms of like travel. Like when you're riding down the road and driving, you either have somebody that is behind you on your bumper, maybe because you're not going fast enough and you can't stand them. Like how dare they? And you've always blamed the other person. But if somebody's in front of you and all of a sudden they're not going fast enough,

And now you become that person, but you don't take it personally on you. They should be out of your way. And we do it like pedestrians. If you're a pedestrian walking, it's like all these cars can wait. I'm a pedestrian or not, but you're driving and all these pedestrians are in front of you. You're like, can they walk any slower? Like we always find a way to consider it about, you know, put it about ourselves. And that's just the life that that we have. And so any time that you can find ways to just stop walking.

Stop picking up the stones. Just stop picking them up. It's going to weigh you down. Do you think that a lot of this and the way that we communicate is particularly gendered? And I ask that because even some of the tips that you have suggested, like speaking slower, being deliberate with your words,

These can often be qualities that are attributed to male speakers. Like women often speak faster. We often have been conditioned to use more filler words or niceties, especially when it comes to emails. There's been a bit of conversation around this within like Australian media recently, but like women having fluffier emails because we have to be, otherwise we're seen as not being as likable or nice. Do you think that it is a gendered thing or is it something that can be implemented across both?

There is certainly, I would say an expectation or at least a pattern on the female side of very fast engagement. They're very sociable. They're more emotionally driven, meaning they like to know the feelings of things and the emotion of it. And so you like for everybody to feel nice. Guys tend to be a lot, like we say, at least this is the stereotype of being more direct. You can be direct and not look like you're trying to be a jerk, not fair on the woman's side.

Yeah, there's a lot of the stereotypes and stigmas. And the question to ask is,

What will you continue to do? I believe that there are certain stigmas and stereotypes that have been ingrained in us long before any of my content ever came around. And there are women that I know that are powerful in the way they communicate. And when they come into the room, they are confident and everybody is at attention and they use their words to build others up. And I've seen it to where they can call people out when there are problems and

Women are much more emotionally intelligent than men, in my opinion, because they just can sense the emotion. Because they know that nuance, they're able to navigate a lot more difficult situations, I think, for the vast majority of, especially workplace times. Jefferson, I had a really funny thing that happened specifically with setting up this chat. And I was sending an email to your PR person. Okay. And I had typed...

I'm so sorry for my delay in responding. I backspaced it and I said, I just went to type this to you, but that would imply that I didn't actually read Jefferson's book and I didn't learn anything about being more assertive with my language. And I've realized...

I've realised that whether it's a female thing, I think it does definitely tend to be a little bit more in like a female language type or especially for me in emailing when I'll say things that are unnecessary, like I'm just reaching out for or I was just wondering.

Yeah, it's like the hi, lovely, hope you're well, hope you had a nice weekend and like no one cares. All of the fluff and all of the exclamation points. Sometimes I'll go back through my emails and be like, I need to remove half of these exclamation points because I'm looking crazy for the amount of exclamation points in this.

How do you suggest people become more assertive with their language without it feeling insincere or without it feeling as though we are trying to ball buster our way through, whether it be an email or an actual conversation? Yeah. First of all, thanks for reading my book. That does mean a lot to me. Well, I did take a lesson. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. You know, and that's, I think the, what brings us home of between genders is that

When you come to the way you say things assertively, like everybody has a different assertive voice. And if you want to sound more confident, you have to use an assertive voice. Confidence is what you feel after saying something assertive. You don't have to build confidence to say something. Confidence is the outcome. And if you want to have a better email or better written communication, you have to find ways to remove all the ice cubes.

because you're watering down your drink otherwise. When you fill it with, hey, so I have an idea, and you can totally let me know if I'm wrong about this or not. But like, so I was thinking about, and right there, you just added a lot of fluff, and it makes it very hard for people to listen, very hard for people to read, because they're having to filter out what is necessary, what is not necessary. And so if you want to sound assertive, you have to serve your words neat. That means eliminating the unnecessary apologies.

Like the, Hey, I'm so sorry. I'm just not getting back to this. So sorry. I'm just not seeing this. Like the fact that you fixed it. That's awesome. All you need to do is just replace it with words of gratitude. Thank you for giving me the time to respond. Perfect. Maybe you're a few minutes late to a coffee date. Hey, thanks. Thanks for your patience. Simple as that rather than, Oh, I am so sorry. Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. I'm so late. I can't believe this. Like your self-worth is not tied to how little of an inconvenience you can make yourself.

Another tip is to eliminate just, Hey, just wanted to touch base. Makes you sound hesitant when you just eliminate it. You don't need it.

People do it on social media. Hey, guys, I'm just popping on to, hey, I just wanted to tell you. And it's like, you're allowed to talk on your own social media. You're allowed to tell a story on your stories, guys. Yes. Now, I will say in like casual conversation, there's nothing wrong with the word just because we're just like that. We all know what we're doing. We all know we're in the conversation and this is casual and we can let our guard down and talk.

In more professional settings, you have to be on or maybe you're managing people. You don't want to use just nearly as much because it suggests that you're not leaning in to your environment or leaning into the situation instead of the, hey, I just want to check in. I wanted to check on you.

That is much more assertive in the way you come into it. Another third would be get rid of undercutting your words. So we have this habit, at least here in America as far as I have no, I don't know what y'all do over there, but the, we'll say, I hate to bother you. Like you come in and say, Hey, I hate to bother you. But I was thinking, and right then and there,

You're already undercutting what you're about to say next, or they might begin with, hey, this is probably a dumb question, and then they go right into it.

You're just telling them that what you're about to say is going to bother them or what you're going to say is going to be dumb. You don't need that because really why you're doing that is because you don't feel like you can lean into the situation. You want to feel more hesitant. And all you're doing is kind of creating this extra conversation between the two of you about your self-esteem. Like if somebody says, hey, I don't want to bother you, but they go, oh, you're not going to bother me. Oh, I'm not bothering you. And then they go into the conversation like you don't.

You don't need that. Instead, eliminate it. It's, hey, I want to talk with you about something. Simple as that. You're leaning into the conversation.

What is the damage that we do or the disservice that we do to ourselves when we ask someone who over apologizes? I think over apologizing, especially when we speak about like this gendered split in communication, women often apologize a lot. It seems to be a characteristic that we're guilty of, you know, like, oh, I'm so sorry. But, um, and maybe it's, you're saying sorry as a filler word when you're not actually sorry. What does using the overuse of sorry do? Yeah.

It makes you feel small. It's sending the signal of, I don't belong to be in this space. You think of somebody who doesn't say, I'm sorry. I think of the opposite. You step in somebody in front of their line, you know, it was a mistake, but they didn't say sorry. Or somebody who you go in and go get your luggage at the airport and you accidentally cut in front of somebody. You don't even touch them. They just kind of scoot back. Oh, so sorry. There's this tendency to feel like

we need to be less than what the world is wanting from us, that I have to be less and smaller and back and further. And that's just not true. Using sorry over and over, the unnecessary ones, if you've caused a real mistake and you need to apologize, that's different and own that error. But most of the time we don't need it. We're just using it as a filler word. And so when you use sorry, sorry, sorry, it may not seem like a big deal in that moment,

But it's corrosive. It will add rust to the relationships and feeling like you have to always be less. You know, I was just thinking about a conversation that Laura and I had yesterday. We were talking about, for anyone who's listening from Life Uncut, we were talking about the last episode of Cloud. And I've just realized that what I said to you

I went into that discussion with, this could be a really terrible idea and I'm totally okay if you think it's awful, but this is what I was thinking could be the last episode. And this is the structure of it. And this is what I was thinking about creating. What do you think? I think that I go into situations like that with that as the first part of the conversation, not necessarily because I think that my idea is actually terrible, but I feel like

it maybe softens my chance of being rejected and being told that it's a terrible idea and

Is that the case? Like, are we actually bolstering ourself to be rejected or for our ideas to be cut down and maybe told that they're a terrible idea? Or are we giving the person more permission to reject our ideas? So it's the opposite of the first one. So it's actually cutting your own value of what you're wanting. They're going to take it how they're going to take it no matter what.

Now, how you present it is very different. In fact, I would much rather you say it from a position of confidence and believing in what you're saying. And we have other strategies for if you want more of their input and not feeling like it's either your way or the highway kind of thing. It was also a great idea, just FYI, everyone. Thank you. Laura gave me a lot of praise for it and I felt wonderful. I was like, yes, go ahead, do that. That's great. So for example, let's say somebody who goes,

Now, I could be wrong about this. By the way, if they begin with that, they never think they're wrong about this. They always think they're probably pretty right on it.

But what we do is we will try to undercut so that we don't sound too arrogant or that we know it all. You might say, you probably know this better than me. That's just probably not true. We're just wanting to not sound like we're really arrogant. And we think a lot of ourselves have a whole lot of ego. So we're trying to cut down on that. My advice is don't say that at all. You don't need to have this lead up. You're wanting to sound less intrusive, but

But really, it's watering your message because now they're thinking about you rather than what you're needing to say. And so there's nothing wrong with it. I'm not going to say that it's just so terrible. Never do it. No, it's only that these are phrases that tend to cut down on your own self-esteem to where you're feeling like you're showing up less and less of yourself and you feel like you can't say what you need to say anymore.

When push comes to shove and you're not going to be counted when people are trying to get opinions in the room. But there's also a difference of how you want to lead into a conversation versus like you telling your point and getting that out at the outset versus putting everybody on a six minute ride of you have to kind of give all the context and lay it all out. And everybody's going, where are they going? At the very end, you finally give the takeaway. That's much harder to convince people of.

There's something that we didn't kind of deep dive on, and I would love to get your opinion on it, because it's something that comes up in relationships a lot and in communication, and especially when one person's feeling attacked. And we literally were talking about this this morning. But defensiveness, how do we manage the reaction of feeling defensive, like we need to

protect ourselves or we need to defend ourselves when it comes to conflict. And I guess how do we, like, what are the tools to better see that in ourselves or to recognize it in someone else that we're communicating with and diffuse those sorts of situations? Yeah. Defensiveness is probably the number one deterrent of effective communication.

Because it closes me off from wanting to talk with you and closes me off, closing me off from myself and closing me off from talking to you or wanting to know anything about you. I picture it when you get defensive, it's like you lock the door to your room and they get mad that they can't come in and blame them for not coming in. Because at that point, you're not, you don't want them to understand you anymore. You don't want to understand them. You're done with them.

And we put ourselves in a position of just really hurting ourselves because we still, I still expect you to understand me. If you've ever heard somebody go, well, they know, they should know. They should know that's going to upset me. I don't have to tell them. They should know that. But yet we won't give them that same courtesy. So defensiveness has a way of just protecting the me and the my and going back to, like we said, just caring about ourselves.

If you want to start breaking defensiveness in the other person, you find ways of acknowledging their point without being confrontational. I'm not saying be soft. I'm not saying you can't speak what you need to say. But when you can say something like, I can see, like begin your phrase with, I can see. I can see how you feel that way. I can see why you think that. I can see why that upset you. We're all just wanting to feel like what we're seeing from our particular point of view is real.

can be justified, is not imaginary. It's reasonable. And so when you can say, I can see, it's me signaling, hey, I've walked over to where you are. I've looked. I can see why that upset you. I can see why you feel that way. Boom. All of a sudden, they're going to

not feel nearly as defensive, like they have to continue to prove that what they're thinking and feeling is the right thing. Like they don't have to continue to fight for that in the conversation. Or we can say something as simple as, you know, I agree. You don't have to agree with what they said. It could just be, I agree this is worth talking about. I agree we should talk about this. I agree that's an important point.

Period. I love this. You're like, I agree. I don't really agree with you, but I'm just, I'm agreeing. Exactly. I love, I agree that we should talk about this. That's brilliant. Yeah. Because it makes people put their swords down. Yeah. Exactly. So what happens is we think of the micro. We're thinking like, I don't, I'm not, of course, I'm not going to agree with what they said. That's not the point. That's not the point. The point is if you just say, I agree, that's what we're talking about. I agree. We need to discuss this.

Like just that alone is going to, like you said, let them put their sword down or say something that's helpful to know. That's helpful to know. Or what I've learned from listening, what I've learned is this is really important to you. I haven't said anything about agreeing with their point. I'm just saying what I've learned because it's acknowledging them. Defensiveness is this feeling of, let's put it in terms of like, I have a glass of water and you have a glass of water. I can't pour water.

new thoughts into a cup that are already full. I have to let you pour it all out and ask questions to get you to share how you're feeling before you will ever be receptive to my new thoughts.

So when people just go into an argument thinking that what they say already deserves to be bought, already deserves to be taken in and taken as the gospel truth, you're running into a problem because that's mostly the ego. How dare you think that anybody else's idea is good except for mine? That's what happens, especially in the workplace settings.

You have an idea, somebody doesn't like it. They don't like it because it's not their idea. It's this sense of ownership that we take in conversations that if I say it, this is the only thing that you can accept, period. That's going to bring defensiveness every time. Instead, you need to ask a lot of questions, find ways to get curious about why and how they believe before they will begin to be receptive to how you begin to think. It's all about the perspective of

of where they're sitting. Speaking of perspective, and you previously mentioned like an intentional apology where you've done something actually wrong and you need to have, you know, a proper apology for that, but not saying sorry for things that you're not actually sorry for. In your book, you listed through different types of apologies. And I was wondering if we could go through each of them and you could explain what each of them were. The first one was the no empathy apology. Yeah. This is where somebody will typically say like, I'm sorry you feel that way.

That's the worst. It's the absolute worst. Oh, yeah. Well, you know what? I'm sorry you felt that way. Like, you know, it's not an apology. And so these are really bad apologies. I think that's probably the number one culprit, the no empathy apology. And with this, what I encourage people to respond with is you don't need to apologize for my feelings. Apologize for what you said.

or apologize for what you did. Because when they're saying, I'm sorry you feel that way, they're in essence apologizing for your feelings. Every time that's going to be a problem for you when you are trying to have a real conversation because all of a sudden they're going to try and make it about you and you're going to start arguing. And that's where they want you. They want you to go off the rabbit trail, try to deflect. But when you can just say, you don't need to apologize for my feelings. Like I got those. These are my feelings.

I need you to apologize for what you said. That's going to be a whole lot stronger every time. One of the worst ones that I hate the most, and I believe this is the toxic apology, is when somebody says, well, I'm sorry that I'm such a bad friend. I'm sorry that I'm such a bad mother. Or I'm sorry that you're so perfect.

we all know that's not an apology. And what they're trying to do is bait you in that moment. They're trying to get it to where they are manipulating you to go off into the rabbit trail for you to go. You're not a bad mom. That's not what I said. You're a really good mom. And like, try to be play the victim, or I'm sorry that you're so perfect. And all of a sudden you go, I'm not perfect. I mean, I made mistakes. That's exactly what they're wanting. Instead, you just need to set that aside and,

and just repeat, I'm willing to accept an apology. Like you're not, what you're saying to them is, I see where you're trying to take me. I'm willing to accept an apology. So you're kind of saying this is your chance right now to apologize. Then there's another one that we talk about. And this is where it's like, I'm sorry,

but I'm just so overwhelmed. I think that might be the no apology apology where it's like, I'm sorry that I've just been so stressed. Okay. I'm sorry, but I've just been so overwhelmed right now as if that's going to all of a sudden cure all the bad things that they just told you. What you can do is respond. I don't need you to apologize for what your stress has done to you. I need you to apologize for what it's done to me. So whenever you can turn that, those key phrases to say, no, it's,

In that essence, they're apologizing for their stress. Whatever it is, they're apologizing for feeling overwhelmed. You don't need to apologize for feeling overwhelmed. I need you to apologize for what it's done to me. Those are easy ways to be able to call them to the mat in real time and saying, hey, you and I both know that wasn't really an apology. And in case you didn't know, that wasn't a real apology. I need you to apologize for what you did or you said for your own actions and

not apologizing for something that's off to the side. - Definitely, if we had to flip this, the main example that I can think of in my own life is like when things at work, for example, are particularly busy and I'm feeling quite like I don't have time to call my mom back, you know? My mom might've called me three days before and I haven't called her back yet.

And I will send her a message and I'll say something along the lines of like, hey, I'm sorry I haven't called you back. Things have been really busy. I recognize that that is the justification. You know, that's the justification apology being like, this is why. But I also do actually feel like I want to give her a bit of context as to why I haven't called her back. Right.

Is it right to do that or is it always like a bad thing to try and give a justification for why you have done something that might be even a little bit wrong? There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, it's going to be dependent on the relationship between you and your mom. Maybe she wants to know. Moms are different. They want to know everything. That's just part of it because sometimes that might not really be a justification. It's really you just showing her into your life.

and giving her a little bit of a glimpse and giving her some information of what's happening. Where you go into the hard spots or where it's, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I have just been so stressed and like, it's just been, I can't get past it. It's so overwhelmed. And like, I'm just, I literally cannot. Like that kind of stuff where it just begins to crumble to where the more I say, the less you actually believe. Then it starts to sound like a really bad excuse.

Have you ever had somebody say no to an invitation and you felt like they gave you a whole paragraph? Oh my gosh, I would love to, but I am just so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, I have to go and do this. And so, and so it's just, you're going, you could have just said no. It's like the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. If you've ever had somebody go, just tell me no next time. You could have just said no.

And so it is, it's a way that you want to make them feel better, but it often has the reverse effect. Yeah. And I think it's also because we like, we're so conscious about letting people down and saying no and feeling as though no is not a good enough excuse that you have to have the excuse to sit alongside it. Yes. You're feeling their feelings for them. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. In that, like I find that so interesting because I feel like with different relationships, you probably have to approach it differently depending on the person that you're speaking to too. Sometimes I feel like with some people a no is enough and other people I feel like I have to over justify the no. Do you know what I mean? Because of the level of disappointment that I think they're going to feel. But you're exactly right. It's assuming their reaction before actually knowing it anyway. Right. You are naturally assuming

Assuming that they are not emotionally resilient enough to handle it, that your presence and your participation is so vital to their well-being that you have to let them down so softly and give all the excuses and all the justifications because you think that they're just going to be crushed.

And that is a very hard position to put yourself in because it's saying, I am just so important to your world. I'm going to crush you if I have to deliver this information. Instead of just telling them in real time that this is going to disappoint you. I can't go. I got bad news. Can't make it. The way I like to teach to say no to things.

Let's say you get an invitation for something to go to dinner with some friends. Where people go wrong is where they begin with the gratitude and they end with the no. They'll be like, oh my gosh, that sounds amazing, but I can't. I'd love to, but I can't. Right? Yeah. And so they begin with the gratitude. Then they say the word, but. But has a way of eliminating everything before it. Like, I love you.

But you just drive me like that right there. It destroys everything that came right before it. So if you begin with the gratitude and then end with the no, it's just like a whomp. It ends it down. Instead, this is real simple to do. Begin with the no.

All right. So they would be as simple as I can't make it and then leave with like the gratitude. Thank you so much for thinking of me. So grateful that you invited me and then add to sprinkle in some kindness, something like I bet it's going to be awesome. Or let's say they invited you to some new spot. You could say like, I've heard really good things about it. Let me know how it goes. As long as you are delivering that and having and in between instead of the but,

Start with the no, then the gratitude, then the kindness. It's going to go a whole lot better. I got to be more assertive. Jefferson, thank you so much for joining us. Your new book, The Next Conversation, and all of your social media will be linked in our show notes for anyone who would like to grab themselves a copy. And you can try that and follow him. I love that. That's great. Thank you all so much for having me. It's been a big honor. And yeah, I hope you have a wonderful, wonderful rest of your day.