Why Does Desire Change & When Was The Last Time You Felt Pleasure? Uncut with Dr Jenn Gunsaullus
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This episode was recorded on Camaragal land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. Now let me tell you, after listening to this episode today, well, you might be feeling something after this. You might want to masturbate. Yeah, I was going to be more subtle, Brittany. There's nothing subtle about this episode. We're talking poo.

Pleasure. All right, we are talking pleasure. We're talking masturbation. And this is a topic that is often incredibly taboo, not on our podcast, but you know, it's something that as well, I think as women, a lot of us grew up with a lot of stigma around and discussing it and talking about it has definitely been something that has come into more of the

social sphere recently. There are a lot of people online who are discussing female pleasure. I mean, we interviewed Ellie from Comfortable in Her Skin, who is a really big advocate here in Australia. But still, I think that it is something that we look at specifically. I think it's quite gendered. We have different views on it for female pleasure versus male pleasure.

But just in fact, like, you know, the reasons why it's something that might be important, the reason why it's something that is so stigmatized are all the things we're unpacking on this episode. And we do have Dr. Jen joining us. Now she's a sexologist. She's a TEDx speaker. And she's also coined the vagina warrior for anyone who needs their vagina being worried. There it is. A warrior for it. Don't worry your vagina. They're not, you've

Your vagina's not worried. It's a warrior. It's a warrior. Two separate things. With over 20 years of experience in the sexual health field, Dr. Jen is here to break it all down for us. And also, I'm just so fascinated in how someone becomes an expert on masturbation. I'm like, how many hours has to go into this field of research, Jen? Yeah, like what's that diploma? How do you do that? Well, it's also a lot of talking about it. Yeah.

Not always the doing part. Welcome to the pod, Jen. It's so nice to have you here. And I know like we start our podcast episodes with talking about axillian filters. I'm sure you have an embarrassing story. I wonder if it's related or not. But yeah, what is your embarrassing story? It's so funny. I was like, which one do I choose? But I went as sort of related to these topics.

So I started dating my boyfriend a little less than three years ago. And it was just, and he's a scientist and like a cancer researcher. So not at all used to anybody who talks about sex all the time in such an open way. At the time when we started dating, I was just releasing a podcast about trying to feel sexy again, like in my late 40s at the time. This was, you know, like three years ago.

and how I did this. I did this like eight day quest or one week quest for myself around trying to feel desire and trying to be sexy again. And I talked about dating or, you know, hanging out with younger men and flirting and stuff like that. Anyway, all of that details aside, I was so proud of this podcast that I had created all on my own. And it was my storytelling and humor and all of that. And I'm dating this new guy. And I was like, you need to listen to my new podcast. And I'm not

Not even thinking, because by the time I'm starting to release it, I had finished the whole thing. And so I'm forgetting about some of the early episodes. And we, gosh, we were maybe on our third date or something. He picked me up.

And he was kind of quiet and kind of distant. And I don't remember what I said, but I was like, you know, what's going on? You seem a little off. And I was like, you know, have you been listening to my podcast? I'm just chatting about my day. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been listening to it. And I was like, oh, and then I was like,

Oh, wait, is it kind of weird? He's like, yeah, it's sort of uncomfortable. Yeah. And then I'm like thinking back. I was like, oh, yeah, I'm talking about younger men hating on me. I was talking about farting in the middle of the night from eating too much Brussels sprouts.

How it can be difficult for me to orgasm or body image concern. And just bluntly, like so out there, like, you know, these things that you get to know over a long time period by somebody not in one fell swoop in like the first week and a half of dating them. And because all of a sudden it was so, I'm so used to talking about these topics and being comfortable with them, which is not what most people are used to. Oh, the poor guy doesn't even care that you farted. He's like, oh, hard to orgasm. How am I going to do that?

do that he's like too much right and he was already a little like he had looked me up online and was like and he's an amazing man but he's like you know so much about sex like you have videos on topics I'm not even sure what the topic is about and so he was already feeling a bit intimidated and then this podcast dropped and I was like oh my god it's so obvious and I just didn't

Like I just didn't get it because I was just proud of my work. You know, we've had similar things over the years because, I mean, when we started this podcast, I was in a relationship with my now husband. I wasn't. And Britt was single. And Britt would often be like, I have this really funny story, but I don't want to tell it in case, you know, one, it might affect my dating potential, but also the guy I'm dating might listen to this. And I was like, Brittany, anything for the content. I know. Why am I always the sacrificial?

lamb. Your husband doesn't care. Laura used to say, tell that really embarrassing thing that happened. And I was like, it's okay for you. You've found your penguin. I was like, I'm still looking for mine. If I say that, I'm going to be looking for a long time. Yes. And it can absolutely be used against us or at least just freak them out. I like the Marilyn Monroe quote, which is like, if you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best. And I feel like you're just really putting it all forward. So Jen, tell us how does one become a vagina warrior? And like, what is a

A vagina warrior. Exactly. It's not a worried vagina. Let's just all be sure. It's not a worry. That is a specific award I won at a local university a while back, specifically because of work I had been doing. If you remember the vagina monologues, if you remember that was like,

A long time ago, that was touring and it was at college campuses. And Eve Ensler had written this play and then gave the rights for folks that wanted to do it as fundraising for local domestic violence shelters or sexual assault prevention places. And I had been I had done a lot of it locally and had been an actress in it and also a director. And I had been doing productions of it at a local university also and actually teaching a whole semester long course on it.

it. And so my students ended up nominating me for a special award called the Vagina Warrior. Oh, you won an award. Yeah.

fighting for women's voices and women's pleasure around, you know, female sexual empowerment activism. How did you get into this yourself in the first place? Was it because, you know, and we are going to talk about like the stigma and stuff that is surrounding this, but is it something that you personally felt and wanted to make a shift in? Was it an industry or a, I guess, a speciality that you fell into? Like, how did this come about? Yeah. So I grew up

in Pennsylvania, suburbs of Philadelphia, was raised Catholic, was definitely raised kind of like a good girl. And we didn't talk about sexual topics. And in college, we

My sophomore year, my roommate became a sexual health peer educator where you go around to the dorms and do condom demonstrations and safer sex talks and healthy relationships. And so, I mean, and already this was this was 32 years ago already at this point. And I was like, that group sounds amazing. You get to talk about sex. How fun. And I still, you know, I had a lot of shame and embarrassment and fear around the topics.

And I was like, you get to talk about sex and you get public speaking skills. So I joined the group just because it seemed fun and interesting and I could gain some skills and confidence. And then very quickly I became fascinated around what people are talking about or not talking about and how much...

how much, you know, like we'd have these young women and we do a workshop with them on a Thursday night about preventing STDs or STIs and pregnancy and, and healthy sexual interactions. And they'd be like, Oh my God, I'm never going to have sex without a condom again. I'm going to make sure we talk about this. And then I'd see them on a Monday morning. They'd be like, yeah, I got drunk Saturday night. And then I was afraid to ask for it. And I didn't want to

I want him to reject me and he didn't offer a condom. So they weren't doing it. Then they're scared. They're not having good sex. They're not advocating for themselves. And so that realizing that the approaches I was being taught to teach around sex was very fear-based.

And they weren't working and that there was so much shame and embarrassment and just lack of skills and gender role socialization differences around these topics. And so that's how I really got interested in this topic.

topic 32 years ago, specifically around the shame, embarrassment, and then women not being able to speak up and advocate for themselves, whether it's around protection or pleasure or any of it. It's funny that you say, it's wild to me, you say this was 32 years ago. We do a segment on this podcast once a week. It's an episode called Ask Uncut, people writing their questions. We still get so many questions all the time. We had one only a week or so ago that was

you know, I was having sex with this guy and he didn't put a condom on and I was too awkward to ask. So I just did it. And, you know, and we even said then we're like, it's crazy that we feel like we've come so far sometimes. And then you hear people write these questions in and we're like, women are still feeling too uncomfortable in those situations. They're still feeling shame surrounding asking for a condom or asking for what they want. What was it like for you? Because I know you do center around shame and you focus on shame.

What was it like for you growing up in this really religious family, like you said, and then saying, hey, guess what? I'm not married, but I am going to start educating people on sex. Like how did that go down with your community and your family? Yeah. And the thing is, I wouldn't say we were very religious, but we did go to church. And then around probably I was around age 14 or 15, then my mom gave me the choice. Do you want to keep going or not? And my sister and I, and she stopped going. I continued going some. But I think when I...

started coming home, I can remember like the first Thanksgiving after I was getting trained as a sexual peer educator. Again, I think much like my podcast with my boyfriend three years ago, I was just so proud and excited about what I was doing. And I wanted to share it with my family. And so I would, you know, pull out a bottle and be like, oh, here's what we do for our condom demonstrations. And I'd pull out a condom and show them how to unwind it down on the bottle. And my grandparents would be there some. So I think my parents did

Somehow a fantastic job of just instilling a lot of confidence in me and my sister and the passion to follow what we believed is best. And the thing that they've always I mean, they're truly my parents and my sister, still my biggest fans in my work. And the thing that's really been most meaningful to my parents is how much they know I'm helping people.

helping people talk about what they're afraid to talk about, helping people have healthier relationships, helping people prevent pregnancies they don't want. Yeah. So they've always seen the service aspect of it and my passion around it. And they've encouraged me. So I've had them on my podcast before and video series and I've interviewed them. And yeah. So even though we did not talk about these topics,

at all growing up. They've come and seen me in the audience of the vagina monologues when I did 22 different orgasm moans on stage. Strucking grandpa. I,

It's like, it's like that theory where it's like when you'd never, ever, ever let a kid like have any access to X, Y, Z when they're younger and then they get full access to it. Yeah. Like you can't have any alcohol at all. You can't even try it. And then they're the kid that ends up being like, you know, the binge drink when they're in their twenties. Exactly. I'm,

so interesting. You mentioned something earlier and it's something that I even notice as a parent myself with young children, the way in which we socialize boys versus girls around anything to do with pleasure or their private parts, or literally just like how we expect boys to behave differently than girls. Can you talk us through a little bit about how this starts from a young age, but also what is that sort of disparity between genders? Yeah, we still, it's

Funny. And to your point, Brittany, too, it's like, how was that 32 years ago? I was saying those situations and we're still in the same boat today. And so there's something just so deeply personal about sexual topics, at least as we are treating them in society, that then we're

I feel like there's so much space for judgment and shame. And if we don't work on that for ourselves, we unwittingly pass it on to the younger generations. And there seems to, there still is very much a gender divide that,

sex as we understand it is still often on male terms. Like if, you know, I've had couples come and see me and the, the girlfriend or wife will be like, I take so long to orgasm. I was like, Oh, how, how long does it take you? She's like, gosh, I don't know about five minutes or something. And I was like, Oh, that's, Oh, that's actually amazing. That's great. And, but her standard and both of their standards is his one minute to orgasm. So, um,

so much of it is still just a male standard that desire should come up spontaneously versus be more responsive to the environment or how much safety and communication and emotional connection often matters for women, especially in long-term relationships. So, so much of, of what we consider normal or sexual dysfunction is how men do things or how women do things. And we keep passing that on and that belief that,

If it's sex is more normal for boys than girls that are interested, then there's something wrong with them. And that's still whether you're directly shaming or saying those things or just not talking about it, they're going to pick that up from society overall. I do think it's normal more so for that boys will masturbate, boys will touch themselves, their penises, of

course it feels good. You know, of course they were. But if you're a girl doing it, like what's wrong with you? You're dirty. You know, you're a slut. You're going to ask for it. Like there's something wrong with you. And I still think so many folks have the automatic default either way and allowing boys and men to

of course, to be sexual on their own terms, but not allowing the same for women and girls. I do find it interesting how you speak about the fact that like, we kind of are accepting that boys are going to touch themselves and, and that men are going to masturbate. And when girls do it, that it's something that we deem as being like definitely unladylike, but also like confusing. And, and,

The thing that I, and I'm going to be careful about how I navigate this because it's definitely, a lot of kids do things and it's not sexual. They're just figuring out their bodies. They're finding where things are and what goes where and everything else. And I think that there is this expectation belief that because boys have a penis, it's there and they're going to play with it. And I would argue girls do exactly the same thing. It's just that

It's the way that we communicate with them that it's not the right thing to do or they shouldn't, you know, and that I do think creates the shame from a very, very young age that it's naughty, I guess, is kind of like the language that surrounds it. But I would definitely argue that like little girls...

are a zero difference to little boys for like reaching down yeah babies will will reach down in their diaper or when they're getting changed and touched because it feels good so yeah and kids kids will do the same if you're touching your body I mean it's your body like you touch it and something feels good then you're like oh what is that I'm gonna do that yeah I don't know if this

I don't know if this is your realm or not, but what advice would you have? Because right now I would be thinking, okay, if I was a parent of a three-, four-, five-, six-year-old and I saw them in front of the TV with their hand down their pants, and I'm saying this exact situation because I was at my friend's house and their little one was doing that, and she looked at me and she's like –

what do I do right now? Because I don't want to rouse on him because it's not wrong, but I need to educate him that it's not something we do. In public. Like, yeah. But I think that that is something that all parents would find really interesting and love some education on. Can you advise on what is the right thing to do?

The best path when I've worked with parents before seems to be, and this is hard to do when kids are young, but making a clear distinction. So first of all, notice your tone of voice and how you talk about it. That's just like matter of fact, normal. You're like, oh yeah, everybody, you know, wants to touch themselves sometimes because it feels good. So there's no shame in your voice. And if you have to practice that,

on your own or with someone else do so. And then the distinction is like, that's something we do in our rooms alone. That's not something we do in front of others. And that distinction seems to be helpful so that they know not to do it in school, not to do it in the grocery store. Cause I've heard these stories and that distinction of like nothing wrong with that. Yep. That feels good. If you ever want to do that, yeah, you could just go into your room by yourself, please.

With your pillow and your stuffed bear or whatever it is you're rubbing against. What do you think from like an age appropriate perspective? Like, is it a situation where like when you're younger, you kind of like discover something that feels good. So it's like, that's how most people figure out, okay, well then this is, I'm a sexual person and this is something that I enjoy doing. Or is it usually because you have the hormone urges and everything else that you start to kind of like experiment and discover what's going on? I think,

it's both and it really depends on the person. I think when we're younger, we can just be touching our body sometimes and we find out like, oh, that

that feels good. Like, I don't know what that is necessarily because often nobody's talked to us about it, unfortunately, but we realize that it feels good as we're aging. Then it can be, I think once puberty kicks in and then there is urges and of like, and you don't exactly know what they are, but if you see somebody kissing or if you see somebody that's attractive, you feel more of it, you know? So you're sort of drawn to folks and then, you know, basically we just stumble about, we figure out what works, um,

or what doesn't. But it's interesting when I think about that because that

interest and willingness and curiosity about exploring our own body and new things that feel pleasurable and doing that with someone else. I feel like, you know, a lot of the clients that I work with in my coaching practice are folks in long-term relationships and marriages. And I feel like so often they learn to default to what works or what used to work and just to check the box or be efficient. And you've got kids and you've got school and you've got household stuff and jobs and, and it makes sense.

But our bodies are always changing and pregnancy and birth and postpartum and perimenopause and menopause and for our medications or diseases and men's and women's bodies, we are always changing. So I wish we had more of that curiosity and that exploration from when we were younger of just trying to learn and realize, well, you know what? You got a new body. It's always sort of changing. Like

Why not go back to that sometimes or with your partner and create time some, you know, something I like to call HNFT, happy, naked, fun time where you could just explore each other's bodies and talk, but not necessarily a goal, but.

to learn and grow and be curious and have fun and see what feels good and how things shift and change. At what age do you think is age appropriate to start having conversations around your body and around like these, I guess like things that would pertain to anything that's sexualized, but with children who might be at a self-exploration age?

Often a much younger age than people think, but because of the topic of consent and body autonomy. Often age three, age four of actually teaching kids to start paying attention to, do they want to give Aunt Sally a hug and kiss, you know, when she's giving you a birthday present? Or does she kind of freak you out and you actually don't want to? And teaching kids they don't have to just hug and kiss every adult or anyone that wants to.

but they actually can have some autonomy in checking in with themselves. Do they want that? Does that feel right? Otherwise, they could give a handshake or they give a wave or a fist bump. There's still ways you can acknowledge and thank others, but it shouldn't have to be that we have to allow somebody into the boundaries

of our space to do so. And so often that, I mean, I know that's what we were taught growing up and that was just normal. That's what you did. Cause it's rude if you don't do it. So at an early age, teaching kids that type of word and including, you know, with their parents, like, Hey, if you don't want to hug at nighttime, that's okay. We can do other things. But when we normalize at such a young age that they have a right to whoever comes into their body space, um,

you know, they become teenagers and like, of course, that's just normalized for themselves and that they wouldn't want to violate that for someone else. So I think that at a young age and then generally around age eight or so, really starting to talk about body changes, puberty changes in boys and girls, because it's not uncommon for girls to

start getting their periods by age nine potentially. And so I think for boys and girls to know what their bodies and other bodies are going through, and then again, teaching it in a non-shaming normalizing way so that they aren't making fun of other kids and they don't feel shame for themselves also. And they're not freaked out when something happens or they have ejaculation at nighttime in a wet dream, or they get their period for the first time or

a friend's talking about a tampon or something. So this normalization so that they are kind to themselves and they're kind to each other. Moving away from kids into adulthood, what percentage of your clients would you say come to you with relationship issues surrounding masturbation? And maybe that is the shame of masturbation in a relationship. Maybe that is because a partner is choosing to masturbate more than they are choosing to have sex.

Is it quite a large percentage of people that you see? No, that doesn't mean though that there's not concerns or issues around masturbation, but they really rarely present with that. I think in general, particularly in the United States, if I think of a

couple felt like they were having issues around that, it would often be connected to pornography use and a belief that in particular, like the husband was watching too much porn and masturbating. Like they tend to be linked and the quote unquote sex porn addiction. I tend to not use terms like that because I just, because there's so much shame around it. And if anybody shows up to me with terminology like that or problems like that, they often are coming from very heavy religious backgrounds. Yeah.

And they have so much shame around these topics that that takes on a life of its own. And I've actually found when we can undo the shame and I can facilitate conversations between a husband and wife around these topics,

Then all of a sudden, this sort of compulsive desire to keep watching porn or masturbating, it starts to dissipate. So some of it is like what you resist persists in this shame spiral that they get stuck in that seems to be feeding it. So I don't particularly like the term porn addiction myself, but there can be problematic behaviors that are pulling a couple apart instead of bringing them together.

And certainly masturbation can be one because it can be something that we hide from our partners or we feel shame about or they catch us, they walk in and catch us or something. So I'm always, you know, it's not uncommon that I'll be talking to a couple of

And they've been together, you know, 20 years or something. And I'd be like, oh, so I'm curious. Do you masturbate? Do you masturbate? I ask. And they both kind of freeze and their eyes get big. And I was like, do you guys ever talk about this? They're like, no, no, we've never talked about it. So I was like, got it. I was like, well, yeah.

It can be really helpful to understand, you know, desire levels and where the other one is. And so, yeah, but I like I suddenly feel their discomfort in me. You're like, I'm so sorry that you need to face your demons. But like how often? And you can now respond. The things like the porn conversation, and I understand where you're coming from. We're talking about it and labeling it as something that might reinforce the shame around it.

But I would dare say, and I know this because we have it from questions that come in through Ask Uncut, not from people who have religious backgrounds, but people whose partners use it as a tool or it's become like almost like the repetition of it becomes habit. And then the habit is what impacts

the ability for them to have desire in their own relationship because they're already masturbated three times in a day. There's nothing left in the tank. And I'm saying this objectively in terms of what we've seen through the things that we've been exposed to. It's definitely seems to be more of an issue with men, but not so much just because of masturbation. I think for some people it affects the way in which they think sex should be. And so then sex takes on a porn-like effect.

Yes, I agree with everything.

You just said there. So I do think, depending on the age you first started watching porn, how much you watch, how much real experience folks have had, we'll say young men in particular, like real women, real bodies who don't just orgasm on demand or who don't want to be choked or who at least would want to have a conversation first. Yes, I think there's absolutely problematic aspects. And because our sex education in general isn't great, that that really does because porn is so...

Yeah. It feels so real. So you can have adults or others saying porn isn't real, but it is real people having actual sexual encounters. And it's so visceral. We feel it in us. It's hard not to become programmed of like, oh, I guess this is what you do. I guess this is what pleases someone else.

So in general, you know, if I'm working with folks around that, they feel like they may be masturbating too much or watching too much pornography. The main issue of like the too much, is it putting a distance between you and your partner because you were turning to that instead of turning towards them? Yeah. If you are stressed and you're not coming to your partner to talk through your stress and you're just using that as an easy and then disconnecting from your partner, um,

Or if you feel some desire and you're not turning towards your partner who is a willing sexual partner and is interested. Those are or if it's interfering with you going to your work or, you know, keeping your job or going to school or if you're masturbating in your bathroom at work and could get caught. Those are all clearly anything that could get you in trouble or that is interfering with you.

your real priorities in life, including your relationship. That's when it's really something to look at. You know, you mentioned something just then about how like sometimes it can affect the way in which we think the other person experiences pleasure. But I would dare say that as women, we often deprioritize our pleasure or even our satisfaction in sexual relationships with

for the willingness to not want to offend someone or to be deemed as though we're doing a good job or like we can put so much focus on pleasuring the other person that we minimize our own pleasure in order to make sure that they're having a great time. Why do you think that this is something that is so gendered? I mean, one, we learn again, we learn this male standard of sex. So if I'm not able to orgasm

in a few minutes, then there must be something wrong with me. And as a woman, and I don't want to be high maintenance or I don't want to feel rejected by the man or I don't want to feel judged or shamed. So some of it is a lack of education about how bodies work differently and the normalization, again, of like men's pleasure, not ours. I still think there's something sort of fundamental that like there's something dirty or wrong with a woman who like wants her own pleasure.

I also think so many this is changing some, but still young girls and young women are often still socialized to be nice. Yeah, to not rock the boat, to make others feel bad. And so that could be a piece because if you have to speak up for your own desire or for your own pleasure.

then if you're with a male partner, you might hurt his feelings in some way or hurt his ego. And plus he might get angry at you or, and may lash out in some way. So I think there's a lot of different factors. I think some of this is socialization, but I think some of this is hormone differences in general. I think as women,

women, we feel things quite deeply and things that are social quite deeply. And I think that may be the estrogen in the system. Actually, frankly, I really do think it is because once I've worked with so many women in their 50s that have gone through menopause and now they're like,

F all of you. I'm not taking care of anyone else anymore. This is about me now. I'm not nurturing anybody. I don't care about all of you. So we feel it. We feel it deeply. And this is why so much of my work is around mindfulness and where we feel emotions inside us, whether it's anxiety or fear or shame or embarrassment or disappointment, because those icky feelings, we often have patterns because of experiencing them in the past and they felt so bad or the context changed.

was very difficult, the relational context, that we then just don't want to feel that. And then we've got patterns of behavior that doesn't,

serve us often. And I think pleasure and asking for pleasure falls into all of those factors. What is the key point where it does become a big issue? Because people, it's fine to masturbate and not have sex, but when is it not fine? So if I had a couple in front of me that was presenting with this, I would try to ascertain how much sex do they actually want together or sexual encounters do they want per week or per month? And is that

And are they and often it's almost impossible in a long term relationship to not have a higher desire person and a lower desire person. Even in the beginning, everybody maybe seems sort of like hot and heavy and everybody feels more high desire. But that, you know, after six months, three years, seven years, you're going to end up with a higher desire and a lower desire person almost always totally normal. So I would say, are you happy?

hitting a middle area well enough that both of you are feeling connected and satisfied with the frequency and the quality of the sex that you're having.

If that's not happening, then yeah. And I've seen this, whether it's the woman that's the higher desire or the man that's higher desire. If you find out that your partner is masturbating and not coming to you and you're like, I want this time with you, that really hurts and is hard. So that's a space I play in, even though that person absolutely has the right.

to go masturbate if they want to. And right, because it's easier. They know what works. It's often efficient. Maybe they have their fantasy that they run through in their head, pull out the favorite vibrator, whatever. There's nothing wrong with it. But if you guys are in a committed relationship that you always want to be growing together and that sexual intimacy is part of that, that's where it can be problematic.

Yeah, and I think in those instances, like, we can get lazy with our partners. And I don't mean just, like, lazy with them emotionally, but I mean, like, if you know that something's efficient on your own, it's going to take you three minutes and then you know with your partner there's groundwork. Like, I've got to be nice to the guy. 100%. You know, like, it's more effort and, like, we can become complacent. But I guess the long-term outcome of that is, is, like, well, you could be alone masturbating or you could be with a happy partner who's also fulfilled in the relationship. But we also get lazy in sex too, like –

Totally. Like even when you're like, okay, let's not masturbate, let's have sex. But you're like, I know that this position and this exact move and this is what's going to get it done. So I think we get lazy with like playing and –

On the flip side to, I guess, like the way it can be detrimental in a relationship, how important is it for people to be masturbating or at least understanding, exploring how their bodies are changing at each phase? Yes. And I think it can, right? If you feel like, because I'll speak for myself as a 52 year old perimenopausal woman who I'm like, I'm not feeling desire in the same way. I'm not feeling arousal in the same way. And orgasms are more difficult to achieve. And I have

had I not still masturbate sometimes on my own, even though my desire is much less.

Had I not done that, I'm like, I wouldn't know. I would think like I couldn't couldn't do it with my boyfriend specifically. And so that helped me see. And then I started I'm like, oh, I think it's time for a new toy. Like my body has changed. Let me find a new vibrator that works at an intensity and a vibration that works for me now. I was like, OK, this is what it is to be in this changing body. And I felt more confident.

explaining that to my boyfriend and describing it and talking about it so that he knows he's not doing anything wrong. And he's lovely because I'm always like, oh, is this taking too long or what's going on? Because I've had men in the past that are still in my head and kind of effing with my thoughts sometimes. And he's like, babe, are you kidding? Nowhere else I want to be. This is amazing. I don't care. I could lay here for hours with you and touching you and doing whatever you need. So thankfully I've had that. So I,

I could speak for me in that way that it really has helped. It's given me confidence and more clarity in what to communicate so that him and I can be a team together with my body changing instead of me carrying shame or feeling like I'm broken in some way or, you know, that I'll never, I can't be sexual in the same way I used to be. So we just get to evolve it together as a team. And what's your advice to people?

You know, you hear a lot that people not only have a reduced desire for sexual experiences and intimacy with their partner, but on their own as well. So it's not just that they don't want the sex with their partner and they're masturbating. They're not doing either. They don't feel anything. They don't have any interest when they once did masturbate.

We know there's a lot of social aspects that can influence that, like stress and kids and fatigue and hormones and whatever else. But what's your advice for those people to get back on track? Because a lot of people think it's a red flag and that they're broken and something's wrong with them. Yeah. And the thing is, it doesn't have to be a red flag in that our desire ebbs and flows throughout our lifetime. That's totally normal. I mean, some people will maintain highs, some people will stay low, but often folks will kind of go up and down. So it doesn't have to be an alarm bell.

If you're healthy, if your relationship is healthy, if you're giving yourself time to de-stress and self-care time, if you're not doing those things, then that's something to look at because maybe there's other factors going on or hormones out of balance or you just truly aren't taking enough time for yourself or you're not eating as healthy as you could be or exercising. All of those things can feed archetypes.

our desire and our sense of agency and how we feel about ourselves. So if we're not creating space, especially as women, if we are not creating spaces for us to take care of ourselves in a very holistic way, physical, mental, emotional, social, potentially spiritual, sexual desire can absolutely much easier fall to the wayside. So if you really miss it, your desire, and it's problematic in your relationship also, start figuring out how you can prime your own pump.

And there's audio erotic apps out there that are really hot, that are short stories you can listen to, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, well-acted sound effects, everything. And you can pick it, like, you know, meeting a stranger on the beach or, you know, group sex or two women or two men or, you know, BDSM, dominant submission, all of that.

all different categories you can choose and that can help get your brain stimulated because our brain in many ways really is our biggest sex organ and how do we use that to our advantage? So that's a good way to use technology to your advantage. I'll say a side note. I've been telling folks for the past couple years since they've become more popular and since I tried it out the one time I was like, oh good lord, this is hot. I

I've been telling I was like, you know, you can listen to it when you're grocery shopping or when you're, you know, driving home or going to pick up your kids from school or doing dishes or, you know, driving home from work, whatever. And so I tasked myself with that at Christmas time. I went Christmas shopping while listening to these stories. A smutty audio book. I love it. Oh, my God.

I'm like, I'm fanning myself now because I'm just thinking I not much makes me blush because I'm so used to these topics. I was blushing. I kept taking my headphones out to make sure it wasn't broadcasting to the whole store and that no one else would be like, it links to a Bluetooth in someone else's car or something. Like that's my fear that I'd be walking around and it links to like the shopping center Bluetooth. But this is also this,

same reason why I'm like smutty literature has kind of made this real resurgence. And there's been lots of talk about it on TikTok. I know like our producer, producer Keisha, she's been, you know, she's spoken about it in the past as well. Like it really has found a place. And I think that women are

are stimulated in a different way to what men like I don't know many men who are reading smutty literature but I know a lot of women who do no and I guess like especially if maybe like you have had a real dip in your sex drive like it's probably a nice easy entry point rather than being like all right time to whip out the x max to suction whatever it's called you know x suction 794 do you know what I mean like it's just like there's no pressure you're just reading I also think

Sometimes we, it's not always this easy, but sometimes we don't know we want it and we think we have no desire until we have it. You know, like I say that sometimes it's like you think. Yeah, you need a bit of action first and then you're like, oh, I like this. That's right. I forgot. Your partner might want to have sex and they hit you up and you're like, in your head, you're like, I can think of nothing worse right now. Like no part of me feels like it. No part of me wants it. I'm tired. But then when you start, you're like, oh, I actually do want it. It does feel good. Like it is there. I know.

I feel sorry for my husband. I'm like very pregnant. I'm 25 weeks almost. And you still got a bit of time on your list. Yeah, I know. But like, and also like my husband, anytime I'm pregnant, it's like his favorite time of the year. But for me, not for me. It's his smutty porn. Yeah. He's got like a pregnancy kink and I absolutely do not. But also like I have no desire, none. But also like I love my husband and I know I do enjoy sex. So it's like it's only when I'm like literally in the middle of it that I'm like, oh, that's right. I like this. I forgot.

God, I really enjoy this. We're all having a good time now. But if he just came up to me and was like, Hey, what about tonight? I'd be like, fuck, I want to go to bed. No, leave me alone. You pest. You can't even be like, Oh no, don't worry. I was going to use a bad excuse then. Don't worry. Move on. Move along. Well, so let me, yeah, this is actually one of the main things I teach, particularly when I'm speaking to audiences, whether big audiences or small groups is that particularly for the lower desire person and often for women,

They need to get aroused before desire starts to kick in. And so often we've been taught, again, this is the male desire arousal pattern that doesn't work for women, especially in long-term relationships. So we're taught that you're supposed to feel desire and it should be spontaneous. And then you start touching yourselves or you seek out your partner and then you start getting arousal, which is blood flow to the genitals in general. And then you experience orgasm, but that is not

the case so often for women in long-term relationships that we need to take that leap of faith because we love our partners, because we want that physical sexual connection with them. And we know how important it is. And then once we get going, as long as our partners know how to do it, because sometimes I think when men hear it, because if they're like, if men are like, well, how would you want somebody to turn you on? They're like, grab my crotch. And, but most women would be like, please do not grab my crotch. You like breathe.

too direct. So as long as either you can prime your own pump or your partner knows what to do to start getting your body turned on. Cause so often as women, like we need to get out of our heads and present at our body first, and then to be able to be present and open to sexual sensations. So once you get the arousal going in a safe way that feels right, then the desire starts kicking in and you have more arousal. Then you have more desire. And then you're like, Oh, right. I like this. It's so much harder for us. Like

in everything. Life. It's just harder. Like imagine just waking up with a boner and being like, all right, cool. I guess I want to have sex today. Come here. Wouldn't that be just delightful? I don't know if I should talk about it, but like poor Ben, my husband, sometimes Ben will be like ready and raring to go. And I'll be like, where, how, where did that come from? Like he'll just, nothing's happening. He'll just walk in. He's like, hit me up. And I'm like, but I'm like, how did that come from?

How did that happen? I can still understand it in your situation because, like, you guys have, like, intense time together because you don't see each other. We're long distance. They do long distance. So I kind of get it, right? But also, like, I don't get it with my husband. He sees me every – I was just farting in bed all night and then, like, all of a sudden – They're still on. I know. He's like, the way you were farting last night out of your pregnant belly. You reminded me of your butts and now I'm off. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's like one degree of separation. I know. Exactly. It really is though. And I think, but I mean, we've spoken about this before in terms of like, it's not just necessarily about desire. It can be about lots of things in your relationship. Sometimes you might be feeling disconnected and less loving towards your partner. And the last thing you want to do is like show them that you care about them and love them because you might feel annoyed and frustrated by them. You've just had a fight. It's almost like the actions precedes the feelings. So you can't wait for the feelings to just spontaneously hit you in any respect because

Whether that's, you know, just a feeling as though you're emotionally connected, not necessarily physically connected. Sometimes you have to like put in the groundwork before those feelings start to, you know, re-inspire.

So often because the version of desire that we all learn is spontaneous. And that's what you're talking about with your husband. You're like, where did that come from suddenly? And that is more so maybe what we feel often. Everybody feels earlier in a relationship with the neurochemicals of desire. But if you're the lower desire person, you may very rarely or never have spontaneous desire. You have what's called responsive desire that it's responsive to the context that

of your life and what's going on around you and your relationship with your partner. So I like to say, especially for higher desire folks who just like,

Feel spontaneous desire. I was like, your partner doesn't feel that way. It doesn't mean they don't like you. It doesn't mean they're not attracted to you. It doesn't mean your relationship's broken. However, what it does mean is you need to foreplay is all day long leading up to it of creating the context of feeling loved and connected and seen and appreciated and handholding and quality time and all these different components, depending on whatever it matters most to the lower desire person. But

All of that matters to create value.

the context so that the responsive desire can be there since the spontaneous probably just won't be. Jen, what is your advice to couples? And I know you mentioned it earlier when you say, you know, you've had people that walked in and you were like, well, how often do you masturbate? And then everyone in the room is awkward. What is your advice to couples who just don't speak about these things, who don't speak about masturbation? Clearly they're probably doing it, but their partner has no concept of what that looks like for them or what self-pleasure is.

Yeah. And I think masturbation, because it can feel so personal and so shaming and so taboo, I think starting with that, if you don't normally talk about sex topics, isn't the best place. And so I encourage folks like, you know, I've got all sorts of worksheets and lists of questions or there's those deck of cards you can get that are conversation starters for couples. And there's ones that are spicier around sexual topics.

I say use something like that, a list of questions or a deck of cards to start normalizing talking about these topics. And I'm a big fan of couples of whatever topics you're avoiding but really matter for your relationship. You set aside a weekly check-in for just 15 minutes a

once a week so that you are normalizing talking about these topics and you're not brushing it under the rug anymore. And in this case, what you're doing is that you're actually building comfort with the discomfort you feel around these topics, the shame, the embarrassment, the fear of judgment, the stigma, start normalizing it. And truly at its core, intimacy is normal.

is letting our armor down and being vulnerable and creating the safe space for someone we love and care about to do the same. So just talking about these questions in an open way is intimacy. Like that's at a core of emotional intimacy. So that's how you could start building the comfort. And then eventually you'll get to the masturbation topic, but you'll have more skills in it by then. Yeah.

Jen, thank you so much for coming on today. Laura, do you have any other masturbation questions, personal or otherwise? No, I'm masturbated out. Thank you.

To be fair, like I enjoy the insight into this. Oh, I didn't think that's what you're going to say. No, I was going to say, no, because I think my perception around, maybe it happens as we get older as well, because like you just have more, not for everyone. It definitely comes down to your exposure. But I do feel as though the person I was in my sexual experiences at 20 was the meek,

girl who didn't want to offend anyone and wanted to perform. Like I would put on an A plus performance. That was my main, that was my main priority. I wanted to make sure that they walked away saying that I was great. It didn't matter if I had a great time or not. And it wasn't until I was sort of, you know, in my late twenties that

And definitely into my 30s where I was like, oh, actually, no, I'm important in this equation. And probably I do still care about my partner's enjoyment, but I care about mine as well. You know, like he can take some control over his enjoyment, too. It's not just my sole job in this equation. And I think I used to take that burden on completely. So I find these conversations really helpful because I know there were so many of our listeners are in the phase of.

of still wanting to please and not prioritizing themselves and probably aren't having the type of sex that they want to be having. Yes. And maybe their partner wants more passion from them, but they're like, yeah, but this isn't for me and this doesn't feel that good. So it would be beneficial to both of them to figure out how to have those conversations.

We are going to link your website, your socials and your book from madness to mindfulness, reinventing sex for women. For anyone that wants to go and find out more. Thank you so much for having this. Absolutely. Your questions are fantastic. The get off chat. Everybody go home and masturbate tonight. Go give yourself a hand. Thanks so much. Thanks, Jen.