American War of Independence: Fourth of July Special
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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Greg here. Welcome to a special 4th of July episode of You're Dead to Me to mark 250 years since the start of the American War of Independence in 1775. This is a special one-off. The series will start properly in a few weeks on the 8th of August. But remember, if you're in the UK, you'll find episodes available 28 days earlier than any other app if you listen on BBC Sounds. Enjoy the show.

Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the BBC Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and today we are chucking our tea in the harbour and charging back to the 18th century for a very special 250th anniversary episode about the American War of Independence slash American Revolution, whatever you call it, and to help our cause we have two

Welcome, Frank.

Thank you very much, Greg. I'm thrilled to be here. Delighted to have you here and in Comedy Corner. He is an Emmy and Grammy award-winning comedian and actor. You'll know him from many of my favourite sitcoms, including Bojack Horseman, AP Bio, Parks and Recreation, Veep, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Goldbergs, The King of Queens. What an amazing CV list. His amazing film career has put him in the Marvel Universe, the Zoolander Zooniverse, the Ghostbusters Ghouliverse and the Pixar Tooniverse. He is Remy the Rat himself from Pixar's Ratatouille. It's the wonderful Patton Oswalt. Welcome, Patton.

Thank you, Greg. I'm looking forward to winning some big prizes today. So happy to have you here. I'm a big fan. But also, you've played historians in things. You've played a history professor in 22 Jump Street. Oh, that's right. I did. Yeah, you did. Wow. And also famously as a filibustering history buff in Parks and Rec. You literally changed Star Wars canon.

I affected Star Wars, and yes, a thing that I riffed on Parks and Rec, where I pitched the next Star Wars sequels, they used it as the template for the opening shot of the series Book of Boba Fett. It felt very gratifying. I also believe you are named after General Patton. I was, yes, I was named after George S. Patton. My dad was a Marine, had high hopes, and I'm glad to be here today on this podcast. I'm sure he's very proud.

If you've played a historian and you are the son of a proud military man, do you know your fair bit about American military history? I mean, I like history a lot. I read a lot of history. I really enjoy Thomas Cahill's books. I love hinge history moments. That's something that I'm kind of obsessed with where, oh, something could have completely gone the other way. Clive James is really deep into that kind of world of, I think his quote is like, history is basically a record of the way things didn't have to be.

I love that aspect of it. So, yes, as much as I know about American history, and I'm speaking for a lot of Americans...

I did not learn about the Tulsa Massacre until I saw it on the HBO show Watchmen, which I think a lot of Americans didn't know about. There's also in the new movie Sinners, Ryan Coogler's Sinners, there's a whole Asian diaspora that ended up in the American South that we only learned about when we watched this sexy rhythm and blues vampire movie. So that's how a lot of American history ends up getting taught.

You know, there's worse ways in the pop culture movies. As long as it still gets through. Exactly. All right. So I feel like you probably know a fair bit, but we'll be testing you today to see what's stuck and what else we can teach you. So what do you know?

This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And surely everyone knows that July 4th, 1776, was Independence Day in America. Or was it? Hence the episode. There's no shortage of pop culture reminders, from the truly terrible Mel Gibson film The Patriot to the truly incredible Hamilton musical by Lin-Manuel Miranda.

Or for slightly subtler references, you've got Nick Cage in National Treasure featuring a treasure map on the back of the Declaration of Independence or Will Smith nuking an alien spacecraft on the 4th of July in Independence Day. Like I said, subtle. But why did American colonists rebel against Britain? How did they defeat an imperial superpower? And can we spill the tea on why Bostonians spill the tea? Let's find out. Patton, let's test your knowledge. Oh, God.

By the way, we're both Americans. Did you bring us here to apologize for revolting? It's a little weird that you brought two Americans in for this. Well, as Frank likes to point out, he's lived in Scotland for how many years? 32 years. Oh, you're exempt. All right, let's test your knowledge. How many British American colonies were there in British America prior to the revolution?

That's a good canonical answer, and that is the answer I would have given, but... But? Okay, the professor's going to say, well, actually... You can't see it, but he's pushing his glasses back up his nose before he speaks. That's the classic. That's like a samurai bringing his sword out. When the professor pushes his glasses back, get ready, blood's going to get spilled.

Well, actually, Patton, there were 26 colonies in British North America and the Caribbean. Oh. This is something that we as Americans are not usually taught. I certainly wasn't. So if I may, Greg. Please, please. So what happened was the English, and I'm using English deliberately in this context. Apologies to our Scottish listeners. During the 17th century, the English established colonies, the colonies we know of on the eastern seaboard of North America. Right.

But under the Stuarts, they also established colonies elsewhere in North America and importantly in the Caribbean. And by the mid-18th century, when Britain emerges victorious from the Seven Years' War, it's got 26 colonies. So there are the 13 that rebel. And just for our listeners, we'll see if I can name them, right? Yeah, go for it. New Hampshire. Yes. Massachusetts. Lovely. Rhode Island. Connecticut. New York. New Jersey. Pennsylvania. New York.

Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia. He's done it. So we have the 13 that rebelled to become the United States, but there were other colonies, East and West Florida, Quebec, New York.

The Caribbean colonies. So if they had 26 colonies here, they had a big stake in keeping this place. This meant more than just 13 states rebelling. This was, hey, we've got money in this area. A lot of money. A lot of money. And one thing that I think frequently is not appreciated in the United States is the big money colonies were the ones in the Caribbean.

Where, of course, slave-based agriculture was being practiced and they're raising sugar in particular. But that's the engine of the British economy in the 18th century. You mean the crab economy in Maryland wasn't... The whole world wasn't hinging on that? Shocking, I know. Damn. Okay, so we've got 26 colonies, 13 of them on the eastern seaboard of the States. Wow.

How do they work as colonies? What are the governments? I mean, they're largely self-governing. They've kind of developed under their own devices for much of the period, the first hundred years after their settlement. And so each of them has its own assembly, for example, which they see as equivalent to parliament. They've achieved a degree of autonomy as a result of this.

And when Britain wins the Seven Years' War, what Americans will call the French and Indian War, Britain emerges victorious there. They have to govern this big space, but they're pushing up against people who've developed their own ways of thinking and their own ways of doing things. They're pretty used to governing themselves. Right.

In Virginia, for example, there's an assembly, the House of Burgesses, but in Virginia, there is a large degree of inequality in society. The great planters dominate the assembly, for example. So there are differences in practice in the different colonies, but broadly speaking, they share this culture, which they believe is

They got from Britain. Yeah. They talk about the rights of Englishmen all the time. And they're not wrong about that. But they talk about we've got the rights of Englishmen. When we're governing ourselves, that's because we're English and we're British. And they've won the Seven Years' War. I mean, you could have been speaking French, Patton. Exactly. Well, quelle demange. That had happened because I can barely speak English.

Yeah, I mean, it's the beloved, handsome, wise King George III, defender of the colonies, the proud defender of the American people. Why are you laughing?

The stable, chill George III. It's funny, in Britain, that's sort of how we know him. Later on, he's the Mad King, but 20 years after the war. So at this time, he is kind of a chill... He likes farming. He's Farmer George. Farmer George. The enlightened king. No kidding. When did he start going crazy? Very late, 1790s, early 1800s, so long after the war. Obvious question, Frank. How does it go so wrong for King George? Because we've heard that Britain has won this seven-year war, this...

very expensive war and everything is rosy. It's a vanquished France finally, seemingly forever. We'll see. They've driven the French out of North America. They have control over all of Eastern North America nominally. This is a great moment of triumph.

You mentioned Hamilton a few minutes ago, the musical, not the individual. As Lin-Manuel Miranda wrote, winning is easy, governing is hard. So Britain now has all this territory to govern. It's got these fractious colonists to the east of the Appalachian Mountains who are used to doing their own thing. But it also has this massive debt. It has a huge public debt as a result of the war. And it's looking to pay down that debt.

Here's a good factoid for you. The average person in Britain pays 26 shillings per year in taxes. The average person in Massachusetts pays one. So... Wow. Pay up, Patton. You owe us. So the Crown says... Really, hang on. Let me get my... Do you take Zell? Oh, my God. The government says, okay, you need to pay. You've benefited from this conflict. You ought to pay for your own defense. And what did we say?

How did we react to that? Well, Patton, you may know that Americans love to pay taxes. Oh, my God. Get out of my way. Let me mail this check in. So what the British did was they instituted various governments, instituted a variety of taxes. The most famous, the one we did learn about in school, the Stamp Act, of course, in 1765 is the most infamous. But prior to that, Americans had been paying customs duties.

Dare I say tariffs. I was waiting for that. Go ahead. And they'd been paying customs duties historically and they recognized and accepted the customs duties were an acceptable thing for parliament to levy on them because it was about regulating trade, not raising revenue.

So there's a history there. There was something called the Sugar Act, for example, adopted in 1763, which actually lowered the tax on sugar. But Britain decided to collect the tax rather than ignore it, as it had been doing. And so they said, you'll pay less, but you'll actually pay it. So they institute a bunch of...

Hang on. You can have a higher tax that we're not going to bother with, or we'll lower it, but once it's lowered, we're going to make sure that's okay. That's it exactly. You've got it. Wow. I'm sure your listeners are really interested in the details of British tax policy in the 18th century. There was a 1733 sugar act.

Wow. That levied a sugar duty that was high and nobody paid it. They all just ignored it. Wow. For everyone listening on the treadmill right now, you can get it up to six miles an hour. This is where you're going to really feel the burn. We start talking about the British tax system on American sugar. So let's crank those treadmills. I know that you're come on. We got you. We're behind you, man. Go ahead.

Okay. All right. Anyway, there are customs duties, but they also adopt this thing called the Stamp Act in 1765. And that's unprecedented because it's a direct tax on Americans in their colonies. By making them use stationery imported from London. Yeah. Anything. If you need a will, if you need a deed, it all has to be on specially stamped paper. If you buy a newspaper. People.

People in Massachusetts say, we pay taxes that are levied by our government. We're represented in that government. That's the way the system works. If you're paying 26 times more than we are, you're paying too much tax. And so their position is not necessarily just greed. It's actually there is kind of intellectual consistency there.

And there's also the Quartering Act, which allows colonial authorities to be forced to house British soldiers in public houses, even people's homes. Yes. So there's a pretty large British army in North America at war's end that Americans are being taxed to maintain. But also those soldiers need to be quartered. Yeah.

And under the Quartering Act, they can be put in private homes. Again, this isn't unusual in 18th century Britain. No. So to some extent, these people who've been claiming we're British are being told, well, if you're British, this is what being British means. That was a normal thing in Britain. What was done back at home. Have a soldier come. Yeah, come stay in your house. Yeah. And that really led to the boom in romance novels. The handsome young soldier and then the young daughter just fetching the water and then who knows where it leads.

You know, we got to keep that industry going. We haven't mentioned the Townsend Acts. They are the one, they're the official parliamentary acts which allow for the taxation of the colonists, right? Yes. So what happens is there's widespread resistance to the Stamp Act in 1765. Parliament repeals it in 1766. But,

adopt something called the Declaratory Act in 1766, which is basically a parent saying, okay, I'm giving in to you, but next time you have to do what I say. Because the Declaratory Act says- Which always works. Always works. They say, we're repealing the Stamp Act, but the Declaratory Act says, but we have the authority to tax you in all cases whatsoever. And the following year, they adopt the Townsend Duties. The Townsend Duties are more import duties, more tariffs. Yeah.

And they say, Parliament's view is, okay, hang on. You said you don't like direct taxes, but you have been paying customs duties. Now you'll pay these customs duties. Americans say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Customs duties were okay when they were about channeling trade. But if you're doing this to raise revenue, that's a sneaky backdoor way to tax us directly. We're not having it. I don't know whether either of you are parents of teenagers. Yeah.

Actually, I am. I know exactly what they're doing right now. Oh, my God. So I just love that so much of history is just the same dynamic as a parent dealing with it psychologically. Okay, if I say they can't do this, they'll go out of their way to do it. So what I should say is...

and like history hinges on that. It's just George III going, how do I parent my unruly teenager? They want to stay out all late and wear black. These harsh acts as the Americans saw them, as the colonists saw them, they're not Americans yet, right? So I shouldn't use that word. Did they call themselves Americans at this point or they were just colonists? Columnists? Oh, please edit that out. Oh my God. They're actually bloggers. Yeah.

They're often called British Americans or Americans. American is somewhat used and we're going to get to this, I think. Anyway. So, Frank, these harsh parliamentary acts, they lead to violence, right? Because we've got the Boston Massacre in 1770 when British troops are actually firing on people.

Yes. So what happened was the resistance to these taxes, beginning with the Stamp Act and then through the Towns and Duties, which you mentioned, Greg, is mainly centered in the port towns because those are the only cities in the colonies. So Boston, New York...

Newport, Richmond, Philadelphia. And that's where the trade is. Yeah. Charleston, et cetera. And that's also where there are crowds and sailors who could be mobilized, things like that. And there are groups that form called the Sons of Liberty that enforce boycotts and resistance to these taxes. Unsurprisingly for any listeners who may be familiar with the cultural geography of America, apparently, Pat, and I'm glad you're sitting down, people in Boston can be difficult. Wait.

Wait. We're going to take a break. We'll be right back. Wait. I'm sorry. Laid back, bean down. All right. So the resistance was centered in Boston. It wasn't only in Boston, but it was most kind of virulent in Boston. And as a result, the British sent troops to Boston in 1768. Redcoat troops. Now, again...

Those troops previously had been on the frontier. Yeah. And when Britain said, we want to tax you to pay for your own defense, some people said, yeah, that makes sense. Once the troops are on American streets, they're to enforce the taxes. American colonists say, you're not here to protect us. You're here to take our liberties away.

And there's a lot of tension in Boston between civilians in Boston, the Sons of Liberty in Boston, and these British troops who are quartered amongst them, as you mentioned. There are a series of incidents that take place, the most prominent of which occurs on March 5th, 1770, an incident known as the Boston Massacre. Eight civilians are shot, five of whom die. There was a crowd of up to 300 people who were harassing British soldiers, and they were throwing snowballs, ice balls, bricks, and so on at the soldiers. Yeah, I can't.

And weirdly enough, batteries. They were winging batteries at them, which history has yet to explain how they had D-cell batteries to throw, but they had them. By the way, I also heard they were throwing oyster shells. Yes. Yeah. A very Bostonian thing to do. Oyster shells. I'm winging some shells over those guys' heads. And so this incident really escalates things. It should be said, though, Greg, and I'm sure you probably know this.

The British Army shoots civilians in Britain all the time in the 18th century. This isn't even a terribly big matter. Standard behavior for the British Army. Because there is no police, so they're used for crowd control in 18th century Britain. So this is a terrible incident, but it's not actually that unusual. And the Sons of Liberty, they grab one of the commissioners and they kind of tar and feather him, which sort of sounds cutesy until you realize what it is. It's horrific.

Yeah, it is horrific, right? It is torture. I mean, you usually get beaten up and stripped before you're tarred and feathered. They pour hot tar on you and then cover you with feathers. Yeah. It's horrific. It is horrific. If you've ever seen the John Adams miniseries, there's a very good scene. It's a harrowing scene about somebody being tarred and feathered. And not just that. If you somehow survived it, which a lot of people don't even survive the initial tarred because of the pain.

taking the tar off, it is brutal. Yeah, that's right. Skin's coming off, right? Yeah. Horrible stuff. There was some waterboarding as well with pouring tea down his nose and stuff. I mean, it's really, really horrible stuff. We get the Boston Tea Party after that, which, again, sounds like a sort of genteel Jane Austen thing, the Boston Tea Party. But it's a paramilitary...

organization this, Sons of Liberty? They are certainly a political movement that is willing to use force or threaten to use force. And those threats are credible because they've done it enough. In the Boston Massacre, you have them, you know, they're not that I'm justifying them being shot, but they're throwing stuff, they're attacking people, they're turning and feathering people.

The Boston Tea Party, was it just as aggressive or was it more a clandestine operation to throw the tea in the heart? What was the feeling of that one? That's a good question. It's much more controlled. So the background of this is Parliament adopts something called the Tea Act, which is meant to help the British East India Tea Company.

which has huge interest in parliament, little corruption there. And this calls attention to people to taxation again. And again, this tea is sent to Boston, among other port cities. It also goes to New York, Philadelphia and Charleston. But in Boston, they resort to this protest again.

It's not like the massacre and it's not unrestrained violence. Instead, it's much more controlled. So a group of about 60 Sons of Liberty, rather crudely disguised as indigenous Americans. They board the tea ships. There are three of them in Boston Harbor. They destroy 342 chests of tea, but they clean up after themselves. Wait, they do? They do. They also, they make sure that they...

Nobody's meant to pilfer anything else off these cargo ships or off the wharf. So it's meant to be a controlled demonstration to show that there are limits to resistance. Equally, right after the Boston Massacre, the British soldiers who shot into the crowd were tried in Boston, and most of them were acquitted. That was carried out to show that the rule of law actually still persisted. And who defended them? John Adams. John Adams. There you go. So the point was—

With the Tea Party, there's a degree of restraint and control about this. The taxed tea is the target. Now, 342 chests of tea, it's worth tens of thousands of pounds. Millions of money. Probably millions today. So it's a pretty significant attack on private property. Yeah. And they're dumping it. They're not taking it home and stealing it. They're dumping it in the water. They are dumping it in the water. Although I was doing research many, many years ago, and there was a guy who was accused of filling his pockets with tea. Okay.

Oh, so there were some, they weren't doing the whole Joker thing of burning my half of the money. There were some people that were taking it home. You know, loose leaf tea is very fashionable. Wear it as a hat. Yeah, my goodness. Okay, so what does the King's government do? What does George III do? You know, you've got the tea protest. Is he sitting and stewing? Is he letting rebellion brew? Is he stirring the pot until things boil over? Tea pun, tea pun, tea pun.

What is he doing? Two things. The first thing, before I answer your question, is to say, this is a, you mentioned you like hinge points in history, Patton. This is a hinge point. This is the moment America...

became a coffee-drinking country and not a tea-drinking country. Really? Well, this is my thesis. Okay. Well, let's hear it. I want to know the origin of my addiction. Which is to say, tea is horrible in America. Hey, come on now. The tea in America is terrible. I am an American. I go to America all the time. I bring my own tea bags with me. If you order tea in America— No, when I'm in America, I drink PG Tips. Right.

Oh, I had a hard drink. But if you order it, you either get tepid water in a bag next to it or you get something the temperature of the core of the sun. Yes. They don't know what they're doing. They don't know what they're doing. I think it goes back to the Tea Party. I think the turn to coffee happened then. This is the ancient history. In answer to your actual question. Okay. We have an episode on the history of coffee if you listen to one of my more. Back to that one. Back to my question, Frank. Come on. Parliament penalizes the colonies.

The king and his government want to take a hard line. They adopt a series of acts called the Coercive Acts to punish Boston. The Coercive Act or Intolerable Act, right? Yeah, yeah. And is that the official name of them? No, no, no. Each of the acts has its own name. So there's the Massachusetts Government Act. So they call them the Coercive Acts or the Intolerable Acts. Good branding. Yeah, the governor of Massachusetts is replaced with a military governor. The port of Boston's closed until the tea's paid for and so on. There are a series of acts.

intended to punish Boston and also to separate Massachusetts from the other colonies. Okay. Oh, like to make the other colonies go like, we don't want anything to do with them? Yeah. Like that, oh. Oh, yeah. Like they're being punished. Divide and conquer. Divide and conquer, the British way. That then leads to the outraged colonists forming the first Continental Congress, headed up by the first president in American history, a great man from Virginia, such as yourself. And his name is... Hang on. George Hanson? No. No?

Not George Washington. No. No. I know that George Washington... Who? What's his name? Frank? Peyton Randolph. Peyton Randolph! What?!

Who? Wow. Wait a minute. Go right ahead, please. I've literally never heard this name. I've heard the name George Hanson. I've never heard Peyton Randolph. I don't have a lot to give you, Patton, except he's a very prominent political figure in Virginia in the mid-1770s. He's a lawyer. He's a planter. He's a big deal in Virginia. And he gets elected to preside over this first Continental Congress. So technically he's the first president. Yes. Wow.

Okay, and what is the Congress? We have a problem of nomenclature here because we say Congress and we think Congress. And it's more, it's a coming together of representatives from 12 of the 13 colonies, Georgia didn't make it, to kind of decide on collective action in response to these. Okay, so delegates. So Parliament's tried to separate Massachusetts from the others and they're saying, no, we're all going to stand together. What's their policy then? What do they agree? They agree on a number of things. They agree that the individual colonies should start raising militias to prepare for a possible war.

Right. OK, so that's a serious one. That's very serious. But they're not providing any money for that. They're just saying you should do this. They say that the colonies... Stand back and stand by. Yes, exactly. The colonies should boycott British goods. So they're responding to the British closure of the port of Boston by saying we're not buying any British goods. They say British and Irish goods is a little bit of a... That's harsh on Ireland. Seems a little bit unfair. They want to stop paying British taxes and, of course, not obey the coercive acts. OK.

And they adopt a Declaration of Rights in October of 1774, which says that they, that is the colonies, are entitled to life, liberty, and property, and that they have never ceded to any foreign power or whatever a right to dispose of either without their consent. So this is about no taxation without representation, life, liberty, and property, which comes from John Locke. We're not quite to life, liberty, and happiness yet. We'll get there. Yeah, property is more important than happiness. Come on. Yes!

I'm not happy without my property. But yeah, so that's what the first call was. There's a line there you said, though, seed to foreign power. Patton, that to me starts to sound like they're looking at Britain as a foreign power rather than... Well, maybe they're looking at Britain as a foreign power, but maybe, like you said earlier, the way that Boston was renaming some of these, the coercive acts as the horrible... Like, well, if we can start to...

image manage this and make them seem like a foreign power, then we can get ourselves. If we can start thinking of them as a they, we will be a we and a united we. Maybe that was a part of the strategy. You should lead a movement, Patton. That's great. I really should. Okay. So the declaration calls Britain a foreign power, which is an interesting term, but the raising of militia, or at least the idea of raising militia, feels like a more serious one.

Are these newfangled Americans yet? Oh, that's the question, Greg. You have 14 seconds to answer. Go. They can't decide. They're looking both ways. In 1774, Thomas Jefferson writes something called the Summary View of the Rights of British America in that he says, we are just British people who happen to live here. We are the same. We have the rights of Englishmen. We have all those rights. Two years later, in 1776, the Declaration of Independence will say, nope, we're...

authored by Jefferson. We are Americans. Our rights are natural rights. They come from God and nature's God. So when did you get the split between colonists and loyalists? When did that split happen? It's kind of two parts. When the war breaks out in the spring of 75, it starts because people have to start making choices, but really with the Declaration of Independence because it's whether either you support independence or you don't. Right, right. So when there's a referendum, right? Yeah, exactly, Greg. In this moment, there's still...

Kind of British, kind of American and trying to work out what the boundary between the two is. So the Americans are starting to stockpile weapons. They're starting to drill troops sort of quietly in the corner. But the British authorities obviously not terribly keen on this. And so Parliament declares Massachusetts in rebellion. So particularly one state in rebellion. That Tea Party thing really stung them. I mean, it's a lot of money they lost. They just really dwelt on that. I've seen Mary Poppins, the Bank of England, very upset about it.

So Thomas Gage is someone we need to introduce here, Frank. Very quickly, who's Thomas Gage? He is the Commander-in-Chief of British forces in North America. He's also been appointed as the military governor of Massachusetts under the Coercive Acts. He's got an American wife, interestingly. Ah, okay.

He is believed to understand Americans. Taking our women. And Gage is in charge and he's ordered by the government in early 1775 to do something about Massachusetts. And so he wants the he's ordered in February to kind of crack down. Massachusetts is declared in rebellion. He's ordered to crack down on the leadership of the resistance there. In April, he sends troops.

to Lexington and Concord to both seize munitions that the Patriot militia, so-called Patriot militia, are stockpiling and arrest the leaders of the resistance in the colony. And this is where Paul Revere...

He supposedly says the British are coming, but he doesn't say that, right? No, because they're all British. They're all British. We're British. Everyone's British. He says the regulars are out. That's not as good. Doesn't work. Okay, so tell us about Lexington and Concord, because this is famously where the war begins, but it's a tiny skirmish. Yes, I mean, we've just marked the 250th anniversary of this first fighting in the war, April 19th, 1775. And what happens is the British...

Lexington and Concord are now suburbs of Boston. They're about 15, 20 miles west of Boston. They arrive in Lexington first. They're confronted by some militiamen on Lexington Green. And there's a brief exchange of shots. Nobody knows who fired the first shot. Eight militiamen were killed. The rest ran off.

Then the British go on to Concord. There's a fight at Concord Bridge that only lasts about three minutes. There's a larger fight over the course of the rest of the day. But the fighting at Lexington and Concord is relatively brief. Nothing good comes out of the suburbs. I've always said everything bad comes out of the suburbs. So there you go. So the shot heard around the world is the famous line given to this shot. We don't know who shot first, right? We don't know which side shot first. But it's a small skirmish times two.

And we then get the Second Continental Congress because the first one achieved some things, but now the shots have been fired. So what is the second? It's starting to act like a government now. The first one wasn't really a government. It was sort of, hey, let's get together and coordinate our response. The Second Continental Congress is acting like a government because there's a war on. But again, still looking forwards and backwards at the same time because what they really are saying, they're saying, King George, please intervene and stop this. They sent something called the Olive Branch petition to him.

So 17,000 Patriot militiamen are besieging the British in Boston. The Continental Congress is raising an army, but they're also saying, hey, we want to make up. Let's just let's just go back to the way things were. So they're in this weird between April of 1775 and July of 1776. These are kind of really weird moments.

where they're waging war but also appealing to the king to intervene and stop it. And Peyton Randolph, he's had to resign. He's no longer president. He's gone. When do we get George Washington showing up then? He goes to the Second Continental Congress representing Virginia and he wears his uniform to say, hey, I happen to be a soldier. And they appoint him commander-in-chief of the army. He doesn't become president, of course, until 1789. So he'd fought for Britain in the Seven Years' War. He did fight for Britain. He's an experienced British soldier who'd fought for the king

Against the French. He didn't fight for the British in the sense that he fought for Virginia and he desperately craved a British commission and they didn't give it to him. So if George Washington got his commission in the seven years more, there's a hinge moment. If they had just given him his commission, this might not have happened to them. And his favorite hot beverage was hot chocolate. Ha ha!

Well, that's adorable. That's even more insulting. You get defeated by a guy you didn't give a commission to, and he basically, his favorite beverage is like your aunt. Nice little hot beverage, and he wipes out your army. I also love hot chocolate, so I'm team George Washington for now. There you go. On the 6th of July, Congress issued the Declaration of Causes and Necessity for Taking Up Arms, which is a really serious declaration. 1775, 6th of July, 1775.

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So the Olive Branch petition has been offered by the Second Continental Congress to George III, and George III says...

He says, absolutely not. He doesn't even read it. What? Doesn't he even read it? Do you think he did that like as a power move, as an insult, or why didn't he read it? Professor Frank, give us a psychological reading. Well, to accept it is to recognize the authority of Congress, which he doesn't. Oh, okay. Now, I find it hard to believe he didn't actually read it. Because how can you reject it if you don't know what's in it?

Someone would have read it for him. Somebody read it. Some lawyer would have read it and gone, Sire, the Americans are here. But he refused to acknowledge it or to acknowledge the authority of Congress. So he didn't accept it. And he declares the proclamation rebellion. He declares them in rebellion in October of 1775. And we get a proper battle.

Yes. We actually get the proper battle before that. In June of 75 is the Battle of Bunker Hill. The British try to break the siege of Boston. They win the battle but take so many casualties, almost over 1,000 casualties total, more than 200 dead.

It's one of the bloodiest days of the war for them that one of their officers says, well, if we keep winning battles like this, America is lost. Wow. Wow. That's a big win day one. Yeah. Dark. Yeah, a little bit. That's dark. Was there a naval element to this? Was there any ship battles during that or was it all on the ground? Not quite yet. I mean, the British used their naval advantage. Bunker Hill is in Charlestown, Massachusetts, which is, again, a kind of inner suburb of Boston now. People in Charlestown will be really offended by that. Oh, no.

And the British are able to maneuver around Boston Harbor to get around Charlestown as a peninsula like Boston was at that time. So they're using their naval advantage. But there aren't big naval battles yet because the Americans don't have the capacity. They haven't got a navy, right? No, not yet. So at moments like this, Patton, we need a bit of common sense. Oh. By which I mean common sense. Do you know it? Was that Thomas Paine's pamphlet? Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yay! I know something! Well done. All right, yes. What do you know about it?

Nothing. Great. Thank you for coming in. Go right ahead. Please, take it off my hands. Thomas Paine is an English radical who emigrated to Philadelphia in 1774, so he's arrived relatively late.

He has no time for the monarchy. This is a good reminder that this is really a transatlantic radical movement. The colonists have a lot of sympathy in Britain, and that's going to be a crucial factor. And Paine kind of represents that. He writes this pamphlet called Common Sense, which is published on January 10th, 1776, that basically says –

Independence is the answer here. Give up your loyalty to the crown. The king's not going to be there for you. A parent doesn't wage war on its children. Nice. He can turn a phrase. The guy can write. It sells 150,000 copies. It's by far and away the biggest bestseller of the 18th century. I've only seen the movie version. That's the...

And he makes an incredibly powerful case for independence. And one of the things he says is he says, don't worry about the future. It's going to be because skeptics say, look, we can't win the war. And even if we do, what will happen to us? It's a big, bad world out there. He says, memorably in common sense, America will thrive as long as eating is the custom in Europe.

We'll be able to export food. We'll be able, you know, we'll be fine. And coming from somebody English, this is a reassuring and incredibly powerful message. And so the Continental Congress appoints a committee to draft the Declaration of Independence. And do you know who's on that committee? Jefferson. Yep. Hancock. Hancock.

Each colony is represented. Is there 13 people on it or more? There's more? No, no, no. What? I'm wrong. There are five. Five? Yeah. Who are the five? Okay. Jefferson. Yeah. Benjamin Franklin. Uh-huh. John Adams. Right. Roger Sherman. Mm-hmm.

Robert Livingston. Never heard of him. Sherman's from Connecticut, Livingston's from New York. They're the two that always get forgotten. These poor guys, they've done so much. They wrote one of the most important documents in history and everyone's like, who? And like all committees, they give the work to the junior guy, which is Jefferson, and he writes the most. No way. He's the most...

Although I heard, maybe I'm wrong about this, I heard that one of the reasons that they didn't let Benjamin Franklin write it, they were afraid he would sneak a joke into it. Well, because he's really funny, right? He is really funny, but they were afraid he was kind of a prankster. Yeah, he's a satirist and everything. Yeah, he was an edgelord back then, and they were like, oh, he'll sneak a joke, he'll hide the word fart in here somewhere. He's the founding father of comedians, so he's your patron saint. It's drafted, Jefferson presents it to Congress on 28th of June. It's voted for on...

July 4th, 1776? July 2nd. Oh, my God! American education, folks. I mean, I understand why you've said that, but John Adams famously says on July 2nd, I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be solemnised with pomp and parade, with shows and games and sports and guns and bonfire and illuminations from one end of the continent to the other from this time forward forevermore. He's basically saying July 2nd will forever be...

Boy, could he call it. Yeah. Why do we think it's July 4th? Yeah, why do we? And was it July 4th? Well, what happens on July 4th is they vote on independence on July 2nd. Twelve colonies vote in favour of it. New York abstains. Then they spend the next two days editing mainly Jefferson's draft. Taking out the jokes. Taking out the jokes and cutting 25% of the text, including a clause on the slave trade, which is really interesting. And then they formally adopt the document.

the declaration itself on the 4th of July. So that is the date, but the vote was on the 2nd. Adams recognized that the vote was incredibly important, thought, this is the day. Yep. And...

And New York comes along on the 2nd of August and goes, oh, right. Yeah. Guess if you're all going. Yeah, fine, whatever. Great, we're in. The colonies are abuzz with people exalting the cause of liberty. They've drafted a document. They've signed it. America is an independent kingdom or not kingdom. No, no, it's a republic. It's a republic, right? But I have to ask, what about indigenous peoples? You know, what we might call Native Americans. What about free and enslaved black people? Are their liberties mentioned at all? Is anyone thinking about them?

And are women mentioned? Right. Excellent questions. The Declaration, of course, says all men are created equal. So there's gendered language there. There's no doubt about that. Those three groups, of course, constitute the majority of the population by a considerable margin. There are two things you need to bear in mind.

In 1776, the vast majority of people who lived in North America were indigenous. Right. Yeah. Must never forget that. And in those seaboard colonies that are rebelling and declaring independence, 20% of the population was enslaved. So on one hand, we can say this is liberty for me and not for thee. Yeah. That would seem to be a pretty accurate statement. Mm-hmm.

On the other, you asked if they're on anybody's mind. In Jefferson's draft of the Declaration, there's a long clause. It's that section where he's indicting George III. You did this. He did this. He did that. He did this. The longest passage in that section is condemning George III for the slave trade. Now, as history, it's terrible because George III wasn't responsible for creating the transatlantic slave trade. But what's interesting about that passage is Jefferson –

talks about the rights and liberties of a distant people. He's talking about the people who've been victimized and enslaved in the transatlantic slave trade having rights and liberties, the same rights and liberties British Americans are fighting for. Now that's cut out by Congress. Yeah. The question of what will happen to both indigenous people and enslaved people, the war calls the question all the time because both sides seek to enlist the support of

black and indigenous soldiers, for example. And we have the kind of horrible paradox that enslaved people are fighting each other for their liberty because both sides promise them liberty if they'll support them. So it's a complicated question. And for women, do any of the states allow women to vote? You know, New Jersey. Really? Doesn't get a lot of credit. New Jersey is... Eh, let them vote. Eh, fine, you know.

What are you going to do? Let them go. In the aftermath of the revolution, New Jersey adopts a constitution that allows women who can meet the property requirements to vote in the state to vote. New Jersey women are the first women in America to vote. Now, the vote's taken away from them in the early 19th century. But there's a period of about two decades where women vote in New Jersey. Amazing.

Let's get back to the war because I suppose we need to talk about George Washington a little bit. I mean, not loads. I mean, you'll know the story of the crossing the Delaware because it's probably something you learned at school, right? Yeah, that was, and correct me if I'm wrong, that was a Christmas Eve crossing? Yep. Christmas Day, I think. Christmas Day, yeah. Because they're like, well, they're going to take the day off so we can just go over there and... British, we'll get them on Boxing Day. We'll get them on Boxing Day.

But they were like, because they were, weren't there rules to war? Like there are certain days you take like in, what is it? The life and death of Colonel Blimp, like war started midnight. Yeah. Weird old traditions that he's like, well, we're just going to flout those because we're the rebels. Yeah. They don't normally fight during the wintertime, for example. Yeah. Armies in the 18th century. And crossing rivers in the ice must be pretty tough as well. But they're desperate because the war has not gone well for them to that point. The British have chased them out of New York.

across New Jersey and in late 1776, things are looking bad for the Continental Army. Yeah, and also they're fighting German troops. I'd like to point out this is basically the plot of Die Hard.

A proud American man who's not meant to be there shows up on Christmas Day to fight some Germans. Oh, my gosh. That is. Wow. That's amazing. George Washington is John McClane. Did not think about that. In a vest with a machine gun. Ho, ho, ho. Yippee-ki-yay, red coat. Wow. We get another big win almost a year later, Battle of Saratoga, which is a huge one for Washington's army.

And this is a big win over John Burgoyne, the British general. That's right. Burgoyne invades the colonies from Montreal. He's going south from Montreal, down the Hudson River Valley, through modern Vermont, really. Because Britain owns Canada, right? Yeah. To New York. He wants to cut off New England, cut off the head of the rebellion, and that'll be that.

He's defeated by the Continental Army, not by Washington. Oh, okay. General in command, Horatio Gates. Washington is Horatio Gates. Good name. Nice name. Very good. And Benedict Arnold is prominent in fighting for the Patriots. Okay. But the point is, Burgoyne. What happened to him? He's beloved. Never heard from again. The

The reason Saratoga is important is it's the first really big victory that the colonists, the rebels, inflict on the British in almost a year. And it shows the French that the rebels are credible. There we go. And I think we have to now bring in the Mucky de Lafayette. Yes, Lafayette. We've all seen Hamilton, but I was surprised to learn he's a teenager. Yeah.

He's like super young. He's very young. 18? Yeah, 18. This revolution attracts a lot of European flotsam and jetsam who just turn up. Some of them are frauds and grifters, but others are idealists. Frauds and grifters in American politics? What? Shocking, shocking. And so there are all kinds of Europeans who attach themselves to both sides, but particularly to the rebel side, because you can get an officer's commission. Lafayette's one of the youngest generals in the war by the time, when he's about 22 or 23. He's barely left puberty. Yes.

Go and attack these ships over there. I'm just going to shave for my first time. And he brings with him French money. He pays for a ship full of supplies. However, because of the victory at Saratoga, Benjamin Franklin, who's then American ambassador in Paris, negotiates a formal treaty with France. And in February of 1778, France...

France recognizes the United States, enters into a military alliance, and suddenly Britain's in a lot of trouble. And ironically, the massive debt incurred by supporting America against Britain will lead to the French Revolution. Oh, wow. Which Lafayette also takes heart in. Yeah. Oh, good for him, man. Hinges moment. Hinges moment. Another Hinges moment?

Here we go. So a monarchist supporting a Republican movement leads to a Republican movement in the country that supported it. There we go. Classic. There's also a German general who trains American troops as well. Steuben? Yeah, Von Steuben. Von Steuben. Good name. Again, not an aristocrat, but calls himself Von because he's one of these people who's just a bit of a... Good for him. Yeah, didn't he have kind of a sketchy background? Like he had been kicked... I don't know what the... But he had been kicked out of...

Whatever he was... He was in the Prussian army previously. I think it was Prussia. There's no internet then, so you can go to America and recreate yourself. It's like going to college on the first day. Actually, I'm super cool, guys. And he plays a crucial role helping to train the Continental Army according to European standards. He's actually quite important. Although a bit of a... He's not a fraud. He's just...

He enhances CV a little bit. He's like Don Draper in Mad Men, right? He's talented, but he's lying. Look, he's helping. Who cares? There's also huge ego clashes in the Continental Army. There are big battles about whether to support Washington.

What do you mean? Like other people wanted to be the main guy? They wanted to be the alpha? And they don't think he's good enough. They think he's struggling. They think he's not the guy to be leading the army. So he had to fight on that front as well. He's fighting the British and he's also fighting people that are trying to basically take his spot. Yeah, there's a duel fought between a guy called John Cadwellader, I think, and a guy called Conway. They're literally fighting a duel over whether George Washington is good enough. Yeah, because Conway was briefing against George Washington and kind of created something called the Conway Cabal.

And after Horatio Gates wins at Saratoga, there are people say maybe he should be in charge of the whole thing instead of Washington. And the quote that John Adams writes to his wife saying the military officers in the Continental Army are quarreling like cats and dogs. They are scrambling for rank and pay like apes for nuts. Oh, what a bitch. Yeah.

How bitchy. Oh, my goodness. So this idea of the kind of great American army proudly fighting the – they're kind of squabbling amongst themselves. One of the things that makes you a great general is that you have a massive ego. Like the way that you would succeed is to think that I am chosen by God. Yeah, yeah. And someone like Bradley who – also a brilliant general but is like, listen, guys, we don't need you with your pearl-handled pistol and your frigging umbrella. Let's just get –

Let's just save the world from evil. Can you just calm down? Let's just all wear the right kind of shoes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the Steuben thing. Just stand there and march in the right way. Yeah. The big military win that shocks everyone is Yorktown. 1781, the Americans defeat a big British army. And this is the end of the war, which no one's seen that coming, right? No.

Yes, the French and the Americans defeat a big British army. That's really, really important. So what happened is after Saratoga and the French alliance, the British concentrate on the southern colonies because they're the more lucrative and they've kind of written off the north and they send an army under General Cornwallis to the south. That army...

fights around the South. It ends up going to Yorktown, Virginia, seeking resupply. It's blockaded there in the fall of 1781. A combined Franco-American army marches south from New York, and there's some fighting. There's a siege that goes on. Cornwallis ultimately surrenders.

It's made possible, though, Patton, you asked about naval battles. There was a naval battle during the siege, the Battle of the Capes, and the French defeated the Royal Navy, which meant that Cornwallis was not going to get resupplied, which leads to his surrender. I was going to ask, how come that's the end of the war? Because he simply can't get supplies in. Now, it need not be the end of the war, though, because...

Britain fought France for 25 years. I was going to say, Britain is a superpower. Britain has the means to continue. In the words of Captain America, I can do this all day. Yeah. The government collapsed because the war wasn't popular in Britain. We're back to the fact that there's considerable sympathy for the Americans in Britain. Oh, wow. There's a lack of political will, not a lack of... The Lord North is back home in Britain. Everyone's like, this guy... Yeah, okay, cool. All right. So the war ends and there are peace treaty... Do you know where the peace treaty's held? Um...

I don't. Do you want to guess? Philadelphia? No, it's Paris.

Sort of neutral territory, but not really because the French have been at war, right? So they've all got to go to Paris. And it's a sort of big old kind of like, we'll have this, you have that. But the thing that's quite interesting is that they're discussing kind of boring stuff like fishing treaties. It's not boring if you live in New England. Sorry, take it back. John Adams is a New Englander. So North Sea fishery is an incredibly important industry. But yes, they are. They're arguing about fishery. How much cod can I catch?

I got to know. But they do talk about fishing. Crucially, the Americans and British make a side deal.

According to the Alliance of 1778, the French say to the Americans under the terms of that treaty, no separate peace with the British. We're in this together. The Americans make a separate peace. They betray the French. But hang on. I heard— Special relationship. Again, I watched this long series about the War of 1812 and wasn't part of the British thinking that—

that, fine, we'll let them have this one. They won't be able to sustain this. And we'll just slowly chip away at them and we'll get them back. Yes. So the British give incredibly generous borders to the new United States. All the territories south of the Great Lakes,

and west to the Mississippi River. Wow. Okay. So that's a huge transition. It's basically a third of the present continental United States, with the exception of Florida, which goes to the Spanish. And the reason the British do that is they think this is going to fail. They're going to fail. You'll be back. You'll be back. We're going to get all this back. It's going to fall into our laps. Now-

If we'd said this a couple years ago, we'd say, well, ha-ha, they got fooled. Maybe they're playing a long game, the British, and then we are going to be back. Who knows? Maybe it is going to fail. Yeah, actually, hmm. Wait a minute. Are we seeing—this is a very long game.

The longest of long cons. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Wow. Okay. Well, listeners, if you want to know more about what happened after the Treaty of Paris and America getting on its feet and creating a constitution, inventing the idea of a president, we've got an episode on that called Becoming America. It was a very fun one. Way back in the timeline. Scroll down in the app. Who was the comedian on that one? Chris Addison. Oh, he's great. Oh, from Thick of It. Thick of It. Exactly. He's fantastic. I love him. The nuance window.

But it's time now for the Nuance Window. This is where Patton and I sit silently to ponder our fishing-related treaty clauses, while Professor Frank takes to the congressional floor for two minutes to tell us something important about the American War of Independence slash revolution, whatever you call it. My stopwatch is ready, Frank. Take it away. The nuance I would like to develop in the Nuance Window is this is British history as well as American history, and we make a mistake in seeing this as American history only.

It's why we don't know there are 26 colonies, Patton. And I think that we should we need to interpret this as British history as well as American history, these events, because it takes two sides. But also, I think we should rethink our understanding of Britain in this period. So what I mean by this is, to some extent, the American Revolution is a failure of the British Constitution.

The British Constitution can't accommodate Britons who live overseas. The Americans, that's what their message is from 1765 down to 1775. We're just like you and we have the same rights you do. And Parliament can't accept that and Parliament doesn't recognize that. And the British Constitution, as flexible as it is historically, can't accommodate that.

And so to some extent, this is all a result of what might be seen as a British constitutional crisis that in turn leads Americans to create their own constitution. And they want a written constitution because they say the problem with Britain is the constitution isn't written. So America goes off on its own way. But then Britain...

Historically, it was often presented as a sort of failure for Britain, and it is. Except the British Empire continues to grow and thrive for another century. However, they learn their lesson. They don't give rights to settlers anymore and colonists. They don't say you're on a par with us. They don't allow them to have their assemblies, nor do they ever tax another colony again.

So Britain does learn and adapt, and its empire is not the same as a result of these events. So these are incredibly important events for the United States. We need to see these events as British events as well and see them in the context of British constitutional and imperial history. Amazing. Two minutes exactly. Thanks. Whoa! Professor! Yeah! That was a quill drop.

That makes absolute sense. It was not only is it British history, it was a crucial hinge moment in how Britain went forward. Yeah. And how they modernized themselves. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting also, in many ways, it wasn't an intellectual revolution. It wasn't a French revolutionary movement in terms of ideas and philosophy. It was a logistics problem. We can't fit these people in. They just can't fit in the tent. Yeah. And also, future colonists, sorry for queering the pitch for you in terms of getting territory and stuff. I didn't mean to mess that up, but, you know.

It is what it is. America, ruin the world. We really did. And we continue to do so. Ruining the world since 1776. That's right, folks. Pop it on a t-shirt. That's what you can wear for the anniversary. Yes. Ruining the world since 1776. Amazing. Yeah. So what do you know now?

So it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Patton to see how much he has learned. Okay. Patton, I suspect you're a confident quizzer. I feel that you're a man brimming with knowledge and trivia. I'm an optimistic quizzer. Oh, that's great. Yeah, I'm optimistic. Okay, well, we have ten questions for you. Okay. Everything we've discussed, so let's see how we go. So question one, how many... There were 26 colonies! LAUGHTER

Exactly right. Well done. All right. Amazing. Oh, there's more? Let's see if you can do it again. Question two. Which group were responsible for the Boston Tea Party?

Oh, the Sons of Liberty. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Question three. Name the British Acts of Parliament that punished Massachusetts after the Tea Party. Those were the coercive acts or also as Boston called them, the not horrible acts. They gave it like the atrocious acts or the intolerable. The intolerable. Yeah, very good. I'll give you that. Coercive was absolutely spot on. Question four. Who was the

Proud first president of the First Continental Congress, a great Virginian man. Yes, a great Virginia. Peyton Randolph. Very good. Well done. Sounds to me like an American football player. It really does. Question five. What was King George III's reaction to the Olive Branch petition? He claims he did not read it. But I side with the professor thinking, I think he did read it and then said he didn't. Yeah, he left it on read. Power move. He left it on read. That's what he did. Yes.

Question six. What was the name of Thomas Paine's popular 1776 pamphlet calling for independence in America? Why, that was called Common Sense. It was. Question seven. Can you name two of the five drafters of the Declaration of Independence? I can. Can you give me all five and I will give you a bonus point? Oh, God. Wow, you're right. Those two get forgotten. Wait a minute. Oh, my God. I feel terrible for them. It's happening again. Benjamin Franklin. Yeah. Thomas Jefferson. Right. You've got the point.

Okay, then I'm going to stop there. I can't remember the other... John Adams, Roger Sherman, and...

And Robert Livingston. Livingston and Sherman. Those sound like 50 songwriters. They do, don't they? Yeah. Well, we wrote Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow and Teen Angel, and we also ratified the Constitution. Question eight. Who did the Americans sign the Treaty of Alliance with in February 1778? That would be France. It was France. You're doing very well, Patton. Question nine. What was John Adams' complaint about the Continental Army officers during the war? Oh.

Oh, they were a bunch of messy bitches that were all fighting over George Washington. They were. They were quarrelling like cats and dogs. Cats and dogs. This for a perfect 10 out of 10. Which siege in 1781 marked the end of the conflict? Oh, the siege at Yorktown. He's done it. Did I do it? You did it. 10 out of 10, never in doubt. Nearly 11 out of 11, but you bailed on Livingston. Oh my God, I've already forgotten those points.

Sherman. Livington and Sherman. They're just like, they were born to be forgotten. Wow, what a weird witchy power they have. Let's face it, if you're from Connecticut and your name is Roger Sherman, you're kind of forgettable. Oh, there we go. Well, thank you so much, Patton. Do you feel like you've learned some stuff here? I actually did learn some stuff. There was a lot wanting in my high school and college education. Oh.

I think you did great. Yeah, thank you. And thank you, of course, Professor Frank. It was a real eye-opener. Listener for more American political history, check out our sequel episode on Becoming America, which we mentioned with Chris Addison. We've also got episodes on the abolitionists, Sojourner Truth. We've got one on Frederick Douglass. For more South American independence movements, we have one on Simon Bolivar, which is very good fun. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast...

Please share the show with your friends. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the fantastic Professor Frank Cogliano from the University of Edinburgh. Thank you, Frank. My pleasure. Thank you. It was a lot of fun. And in Comedy Corner, we had the outstanding Patton Oswalt. Thank you, Patton. It's so good to learn about my home country of America. Thank you.

And to you lovely listeners, join me next time as we fight to free another neglected historical topic. But for now, I'm off to go and chuck 340 chests of coffee into Boston Harbour. It's not a political protest, I just hate coffee. You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4. Hello, it's Lucy Worsley here and we're back with a brand new series of Lady Swindlers. Here we are in cell number one. I'm just shutting us in, Ross. Wow!

Following in the footsteps of some all-new criminals. Can you take me down to the other end of Baker Street, please? Certainly. Jump in. Thank you. Join me and my all-female team of detectives as we revisit the audacious crimes of women trying to make it in a world made for men. This is a story of working-class women trying to get by. This is survival. Ladies Swindlers Season 2 with Lucy Worsley from BBC Radio 4.

Listen now on BBC Sounds. First, they told the story of the moon landing. 60 seconds. We choose to go to the moon. 30 feet down, two and a half. I thought, wow, what have I gotten myself into? Then came the dramatic rescue of the Apollo 13 mission. OK, we've had a problem here.

I literally got on my knees and prayed. Now from the BBC World Service, 13 Minutes presents The Space Shuttle, the inside story of a dream to revolutionize spaceflight. We had so much riding on something we'd never done before. Unlike anything that had ever flown in space. This is the space shuttle. Roger all. We're just hooting and hollering and screaming and yelling for the sheer joy of what you were taking in. 13 Minutes presents The Space Shuttle.

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