Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. You're about to listen to You're Dead to Me. Episodes will be released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you are in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. First on BBC Sounds.

Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grabbing our crowns and galloping back to the 16th century to learn all about the famous French queen Catherine de' Medici.

And to help us, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's Associate Professor in Early Modern History at Northeastern University London. She's an expert on royal and diplomatic studies in 16th and 17th century Europe, especially queenship. And luckily for us, she's also the author of the incredible Blood, Fire and Gold, the story of Elizabeth I and Catherine de' Medici. It's Dr Estelle Perronc. Welcome, Estelle. Hello.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about Catherine. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian and author. You'll have seen her on all the TV, on such shows as Live at the Apollo, Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow, Have I Got News For You. Maybe you've read one of her brilliant books, including her recent exploration of living with ADHD, Scatterbrain. And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, the Ancient Olympics and the Battle of Salamis. Welcome back to Chaparralco Sandy.

Hello. Thank you for having me back. And I tell you what, my ADHD is no joke. When you were introducing Estelle, for a moment, I thought I'm a professor. I was like, yes, these are my achievements. I'm an expert and read my book, Blood, Fire and Gold, which is brilliant. But I can't remember writing it because that's how intelligent I am.

You are intelligent. You're a very intelligent person. It all went through that genuinely, Estelle. I was like, yes, this is me. That's brilliant. Okay. We've never had a sort of job swap before on the podcast. I don't think I can do Shappi. I love your work, but I don't think I can be as funny as you. I'm sorry. Well, neither can I.

Do you know the name Catherine de' Medici? She's quite famous from history, but... I thought I knew her a bit, but then I was told yesterday by my history-obsessed partner, Mark Steele, that it's Catherine de' Medici and not de' Medicini. I thought that that was the way it was pronounced and that she was Italian. And there we go. She is Italian. She is Italian. Well, half Italian, half French. We'll get to that. So, what do you know? MUSIC

This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Catherine de' Medici has popped up on TV screens quite a few times in recent years, most recently played as a Machiavellian operator by Samantha Morton in The Serpent Queen. Maybe you will remember her as the scary mother-in-law in the wildly inaccurate but distinctively costumed Netflix series Reign, all about Mary, Queen of Scots. Or if video games are more your thing, you might know her as one of the leaders in Civilization VI.

But what about the real story of Catherine's life? Was she really as scheming as the TV dramas make out? And what's it like to have a pope as your uncle? Let's find out. Right, Estelle, we'll start at the beginning. Actually, let's start before the beginning.

You've heard of the Medici family, Shappi, actually. The name rang a bell, but you weren't sure on the pronunciation. Yes. All I know about them is that they weren't royals. They didn't have blue blood, but they were fantastically wealthy, which gave them status. So the Medici family, or the Medici family, were bankers and they rose to power and prominence. Good people. Yes.

Morally sound. They became, you know, very wealthy, as you said, and they were given titles. So then it created lots of problems and, you know, rivalries.

And Catherine de Mignogne is going to be born into that very important family, but also a very scheming family. Yeah. And Florence is their home. Florence is their home. And they're going to become Dukes of Florence and Grand Dukes of Tuscany. But they also love the arts. They become very famous patron of the art.

And to say that, I would like to say that Kevin Middichie is actually one of the greatest patrons of the art of the second half of the 16th century. Was that the Kardashians? Oh, my God. I'm so sorry, Estelle. Oh, should I be? You hurt me. Estelle, do you want to lie down? I'm so sorry. I think I do.

No, not like them. Need smelling salts, I'm so sorry. No, not by Kardashians. I shall never bring them into a conversation about Catherine again. So Catherine was born Katerina. Yeah. So your question, Shappi, about is she a Catherine? Yeah, she was born Katerina, Katerina de' Medici. Her father is Lorenzo II de' Medici. And he was given the title of Duke of Urbino by his uncle, the Pope,

But he didn't have the land. He had to fight the actual Duke there. So sorry. So his uncle, the Pope... Is giving him a title. That wasn't his to give. It's like stealing a dress from your neighbour and giving it to your wife. Yeah, and then saying, you now need to move into that house. Yeah, you now need to go and fight the neighbour. But you have to put it into context of Italian wars. So when I say, let's be fair to him and the Pope...

It was contested. They're into the second Florentine Republic. He's given this land that he has to go and fight for. He marries the French noble who is royal. Yes, she's royal. Madeleine de la Tour d'Auvergne. So she is from... Can you say that again, slowly? Madeleine...

de la Tour d'Auvergne. I love her name. Such a beautiful language. I know. It's like I've said je t'aime to you right now. Greg, you must learn it. I'm doing my best, all right? You're telling my mum. But Madeleine is from French blood. So she's a very important royal woman. It was all arranged, obviously, by the French, especially Francis I of France.

Because I just discussed about the Italian wars, French thought they had some claims on Italian territories and having an alliance between the Medici, who were not, as you said, raw, very important, to a very raw French person. They really thought that here they would lock the Pope on their side. They would lock territories, Italian territories on their side. And obviously their heir was going to be Caterina, Catherine.

to unite, in many ways, France and Italy. So it was a very strong political alliance. So they didn't just meet in a bar, fall in love and have this lovely... No. That's a shame. No, it's the Pope who sets them up. And quite unusual for the time. So you've got your classic Nepo baby thing. Lorenzo's uncle is the Pope. That's always nice, very handy. And then you've got the combination of two illustrious houses, the Medici French royal family,

So we can imagine that her childhood, Katerina's childhood, would be... Amazing. Amazing, luxurious, glamorous. Not the case, Estelle. Not the case at all. Unfortunately for Katerina, she lost both her parents. Her mother died. Honestly, we say fever. It's after giving birth. So she died of childbirth. She died 10 days later. And her father, who had to fight this Duke of Urbino...

died of his wounds from the battle. So at three weeks old, she was an orphan, but also the heir of a very massive fortune and wealth. But what's tragic, I think, for Katerina is the fact that then she's going to be taken by her grandmother, but her grandmother is going to die the year after. They're not a very robust family, are they? No, no. I mean...

It's tragic. It's tragic. And then on the third one, it starts to become almost funny because the third time around, you're like, how many people? I mean, seriously. That's really sad. And more people are going too, right? Because then she's going to be with her aunt and again, she's going to die as well. And the Pope. Her great uncle, isn't it? The great uncle is going to make sure that she is protected and well-educated. What's his name? Pope Clement VII. Uncle Pope. Uncle Pope. Yeah. It's a life of turmoil.

And of great heartbreaks. What I want people to understand, just for a minute, how lonely Katerina was. Because she's got no brothers and sisters. No, and it's very important to remember because then when we're going to go through her life and we're going to discuss her later, I want you to remember that she lost everyone she loved or could have loved and she was massively a political pawn. So when you see a story like Katerin's

put on Netflix and portrayed as this mean, scheming person, but you, as a historian, no different. What do I do? What do you want to say to Netflix now? I would like to say, please hire me. Very affordable rates. As a historical consultant. So how do you think the Pope, her uncle, Clement VII, secures her future? She's a young woman. She's 11, 12 years old. What do you think the Pope does to make sure

She's got a backup plan. Oh, you know what? I'd like to think that he gives her some money for her independence and self-defence classes, but I've got a horrible feeling that perhaps some bozo is found. Is that am I right? To marry her off? Some bozo is found to marry her too. Oh, I wish I was wrong. No, don't do it.

Don't wish you were wrong. Because I don't think it's a sad story. I'm sorry. Maybe I'm the only one feeling that. Normally on this show, I have to honk my problematic marriage klaxon. This time around, I'm going to honk my kind of sad marriage klaxon, but sort of like they're both so young. Yeah, but like, okay, okay. Let's tell the age. They're 14, 13, 14, right? But they're both the same age. At least she's not, you know,

Give in to an old man who's disgusting. And, you know, like, at least...

And she fell in love. She does. And that's a tragedy of a life. But we can discuss that. But Estelle, at 14, I was in love with the drawing of Morton Harkett. OK, Shappi, honey, she's in love with a prince. OK. She's going to have a wedding in Marseille, in Notre-Dame-de-la-Garde. This little girl who lost everyone. His name is Henri, right? Henri, yeah. Yeah, OK. Oh, Henri for you British people. Yes. We love you. But France is the first country

her father-in-law is going to become a father figure. She enters a family. Honestly, I think she won that one. It could have been way worse for her. Okay, all right. I'm not going to honk my problematic marriage collection. I'm going to revoke the honking, but I am going to say 14 is very young.

Just psychologically and developmentally. But at a time, I understand. Between us and anyone listening, it's also the age my grandmother got married. Oh, really? OK. All right. So only a few centuries. Anyway. OK. But at this stage, I think we can perhaps update the name because she was Caterina de' Medici. But now she's Catherine. Or Catherine. OK. OK.

No, that's fine. That's fair. Catherine. Okay. So planning the wedding, Shafi. Yeah. What big entertainment would you lay on if you were the wedding planner for this big grand festivity? Now, the King of France is laying on a wedding. François, he's laying on a wedding for Henri and for Catherine. What's going to be at that party? Okay. So they're 14. So there'll be a huge party.

pick and mix for the guests. I would love that. Maybe a merry-go-round. Great. And those orbs, those orbs that you go into. Oh, the zorbing. Yeah, zorbing. And you roll around in. Great. Yeah, am I right? Am I close? I wish. That would be my dream wedding, I think, zorbing and pick and mix. Oh, gosh, it's not even near. But I would like to defend the French before saying what happened. Okay. Or shall I defend the French after? Yeah.

To be fair, first of all, it's from one of the reports. Not all of them said that. I love the way you're trying to lay the groundwork for defence here. We haven't even said it yet. I know. I should have been a lawyer. But yeah, all right. So there were courtesans and they dipped their breast in wine and offered it in men and it ended up in an orgy. But honestly, it's what French do, right? OK, so I'm curious to know...

I mean, Sheffield was not that shocked. She wasn't that shocked, which is remarkable. I love it. Well, you did sort of preface it with, to be fair to the crowd. Yeah, you did.

So this was at the actual wedding ceremony, not a stag do? It was the after party, but the party continues. And what happens is that professional ladies dip their boobs into wine glasses and then everyone licks off the wine and then it turns into an orgy. I'm just kind of thinking about this 14 year old lad who's gone to bed with his brand new wife.

Like, waited for her to fall asleep and then tiptoed out again to, like, lick wine off someone's nip-nips. You know what? I think it happened. Yeah. I mean, it's likely, isn't it? I think we can call it, what, a nipple-tipple? I don't know. Do you know what? I'm going to do that when I next get married. Good luck, Mark. Of course.

OK, so we have teenage newlyweds, Catherine and Henri. They're first set up by the Pope. Already a very dramatic episode of Married at First Sight. But then the drama really ramps up because another woman enters the marriage. It's all very Lady Diana. Indeed, Diana is appropriate because this lady is Diane, Diana de Poitiers. Diane de Poitiers, yes. So this woman is very important. She's a noblewoman and she's a widow.

And I would like to say that women in the 16th century are very powerful once they become widow because they still have the wealth of their husband. And if they choose not to marry again, they're in charge of their household. And it's very important here because we have the rise of women, highly intelligent women.

And very wealthy, very beautiful. She's extremely beautiful. There's even a portrait of her with a breast out, a nipple out. Wine on them? No wine. I don't think she was invited to a wedding. But she's going to become the tutor of Henry.

The young man. She's going to teach him. She was supposed to teach him. Is he a bit Macron? Well, she's 19 years older. Yeah, 19 years old. Totally Macron. And she's going to teach him more than languages and classical studies. And she's going to become his lover. OK. But I think the importance here to remember is that she's not just a lover in bed. She's queen in all but name. She's going to become like his shadow. OK.

And for Catherine, I told you she fell in love. He didn't fall in love with her. My shoulders have drooped in sadness. It's about my orphan girl who has no one all her life. She finally...

falls in love with this boy. This boy is in love with this woman. This woman is so much more powerful, more beautiful. She has more everything. I'm getting Diana and Camilla vibes. Okay, so why don't I just name that? So Diane de Poitiers would be the Camilla in this story. That's funny how they don't learn these royals. Just let your children marry who they want. And so Henri is wearing her colours, the black and white. So in front of court, he's wearing...

her official uniform. Worse than that, he gives her, well, later on when he becomes king, he gives her a seat at the Privy Council. So that's like making her Minister for Culture. Exactly, yeah. And also, Catherine's got no way to combat this woman because this woman's got 20 years on her. It's going to get worse. Oh,

And Catherine really, really wants a castle, a beautiful chateau called Chenonceau. It's a very beautiful castle to visit. It's the most beautiful castle, I think, in France. And Henri gives it to Diane. Yeah, he gives it to her. Did she paint it black and white? No. It's even worse. It's like the H and the D. So H for Henri, D for Diane. And I'll tell you a story about this. But it's so, again, it's like...

I'm supposed to be your wife and you're giving everything to your mistress. And in front of everyone, there's no like trying to not hurt her feelings. It's like, let me hurt your feelings and some more. I mean, Henri would sit on Diane's lap at court and play the guitar. Oh, wow. That is...

Surprisingly creepy. But I don't think it is. He'd sit on her lap. Yeah, not her on his lap. He would sit on her lap and strum his guitar. Fascinating. Like a sort of emo kid. With a bib in it and she's maybe feeding him some mashed up banana. And he would touch her breasts in front of people. Like he was touching her up and playing his guitar. He was strumming...

Strumming away. Everyone knew. And the problem, of course, from a dynastic point of view, and this is where it gets sad, is that there's a fertility problem, that Catherine is not conceiving a child, so she can't provide the air that is needed. And so that's the pressure as well. Indeed, she's not conceiving. But what's going to be very interesting is obviously they're going to try all the treatments possible for this.

They're going to ask her, you know, to do anything she can to get pregnant, including like drinking donkey's urine. If you say to your husband, right, darling, it's tonight. I've just drunk a pint of donkey urine. I don't know how much of a turn on that would be anyway. No, even for a French man.

Yes, I'm, yes, quaffing donkey piss is not really going to set the mood, is it? Estelle, you can say that I can't. I just really enjoyed that. And I can only say the first half. Oh, yes.

So something we haven't said actually is Henri is not the dauphin. Dauphin means the heir. The dauphin is the person who's going to inherit the throne. He is the spare. He is the Prince Harry. He's a prince. His older brother, François, is the Prince William, the kind of the heir to the throne, the dauphin. Yeah, we would not have given François to, you know. No. So he's the backup prince until suddenly...

He isn't. Yeah, he died. He died tragically. Francois died tragically, suspiciously, Shappi. Yeah, he died after drinking a glass of water while playing tennis.

And everyone thought it was poison because who would benefit from his death? Quibono. Diana. What? Catherine. Catherine. And Henri. And Henri. And so she, and basically he had a secretary that was Italian that had came with Catherine to the French court.

And he was accused. I have to justify why I said Dan, because if Henri becomes king, she's elevated. Her position is elevated. I think she'd want it more than Catherine. That's what I thought. We've got a new suspect. Oh my God, I love this. Yeah.

I thought she wanted that. Catherine's just concerned about having a baby and being seen. The Italian secretary is the one who takes the fall. Yeah, he takes the fall. Because he's got a book on toxicology in his library. He's got a book called How to Poison People 101. That comes from a source that is against Catherine. So they're really trying to play the fact that this Italian guy was linked somehow to Catherine, that he has this book and that he would have killed Catherine.

The Dauphin for Catherine. So the Italian guy is called Montecuculli, I think. Yes, yes. And so that's François the Secretary. So his death is pretty dramatic, Chappie. Do you know how he is executed?

I imagine humanely sniffing lavender and gently tickled whilst being given a dose of something that will knock him out in two seconds. I mean, that's certainly a nice way to go if you have to. No, he's ripped apart by horses. You know, that was my first thought. Yeah. But

But I thought I'm going to be optimistic. It's pretty horrible. Catherine not ripped apart by horses, which is good because it'd be a short podcast. So she doesn't go down for the crime, but there are people who believe that she might be implicated, but they can't prove it. Would it have

have been in Diane's interest for Catherine to be executed and got rid of? Or as a courtesan, does that not really affect her? Let's talk about this because I don't think it did. And I'm going to, I'll talk about this, why I really don't think it did. Go for it, because I think it's really interesting. The Pope dies. Yeah. Which is interesting. So Pope Clement VII dies, her great uncle. Yeah.

And the new pope didn't pay the dowry. Yeah. And there's this massive discussion about, OK, we need a divorce between Catherine and Henry on an annulment because of a divorce at this time. We use it so much, but actually it didn't happen. Right. You get an annulment from the pope. But what happened was, and I love that, Catherine heard all the rumors against her because she couldn't conceive. And because of what happened with François, right, the dauphin. So she goes to see the king, Francis I, François Ier.

And she gives this speech where it shows you how intelligent she was. Am I saying that she's not genuine? No, I'm saying she's genuine, but you can be genuine and smart. All right. And she goes there and she says, like, I understand that it's not good for you to have me as your daughter-in-law. And because I love you, you know, I'm paraphrasing, because I love you so much and respect you so much. And you're like a father to me. I will accept whatever you want to do with me. I put my fate in your hands.

And François, who had thought about the king of getting rid of her, because now she's dauphine and she's not good enough, really, for Henry. He's thinking, wait a minute. This woman is very devoted to me, to my family. And he really liked her. They enjoyed hunting together. They were riding together. They were like... She was a great rider, wasn't she? She was. She invented side saddle or she pioneered? Yes. Yeah. She's someone who's very close to the king.

And he told her, no, I'm not going to do that to you. Because he also knows that she's the orphan, always losing her family. And it's going to strengthen their bond. But the problem is going to tell her, but we have a problem, Catherine. I need you to give me, well, not him, but he needs an heir for his dynasty. Because it's a very important thing, right, in the 16th century, as we know, to have, you know, a full dynasty. And that's where, for Diane, Diane is starting to be scared. Because right now, she only has a little girl, young teenager, right?

And she can fully control her. She's not beautiful, or they say she's not beautiful. What is beauty, honestly? And she doesn't show any... I think you are beautiful, Estelle. Shep, you're so nice. I think you're beautiful too. And you, Greg. Thank you.

And what's so very interesting is that for Diane, it's like I can control her. She's not a threat to me and my love with Henry. But what if we get a new wife? It's a new princess. She's more beautiful. Henry becomes in love with her. So then Diane is going to help. And that's why I want to tell you guys, she helps Catherine conceive. And she's like, OK, let's see what you do with Henry.

And she said, you're going to watch what I do. And so she's going to look into your little hole and look what they do. And she's going to be like, oh, my God, he doesn't do that to me. No, baby, he doesn't do that to you. So then Diane enters the bedroom. Shafi, your face right now. I know. I wish it was actually filmed. You should film this podcast. This is like Renaissance Pornhub. It is porn. Oh, my God, we're getting there. I'm not sure if I should be in the studio. Shafi, please. I'm a virtuous woman. I'm very virtuous.

very virtuous too and what she did was she'd come in the bedroom with a couple she prepares Henry until the end like a fluffer like a fluffer and then gives him to Catherine and this is how they conceived ten kids guys and drinking donkey piss of course forget about the donkey

Not just oncupus, but also wearing cow dung poultices all over the body as well. And grounding up stag antler horn as well. Yeah, but nothing of this work, did it? Where do you put the stag antler horn? You grind it up and you drink it. Disgusting. As soon as Jan entered this, to say, help the couple...

It worked. And they have how many children? Ten. Seven are going to become adults. Yeah. So ten times. I think she probably did more than that. Well, yeah, more than that. And I would like to understand, here, the humiliation for Catherine. It's time to understand that she's not enticing enough for her husband. It creates massive humiliation, resentment. Because even if you see the two women working towards a goal, right? Catherine is like,

this woman. But I need this woman. I need this woman. I hate her. So the ten children, we'll have to rattle through them because we haven't got all day. So the ten children, the sons, so seven survive. The sons are François, Charles, Henri, Hercule. Who becomes François as well. Yeah. And then the daughters are Elizabeth,

Elisabeth Claude and Margaret yeah who marries Henri of Navarre which will become important in the future and Elizabeth will marry Philip II of Spain also important in the future so she's done her dynastic duty shappy ten kids seven survive but in 1547 King Francois I died so the kind of the king who had sort of taken under his wing and taught her to ride another person on her side that died yeah that's it so but she is elevated

Her husband is now the King of France, so she is the Queen of France. Yeah, but Diane is the Queen. Ah, come on. I know, I know. It's quite annoying, isn't it? Yeah, OK. So is this where we find Catherine de' Medici, Queen Consort of France? Is this where she learns the game of politics?

If I'm honest with you, I think she's really much on the back seat, right? She's never shining during his reign. Towards the end, yes, she's going to play a very important role. 1558, you know, we talk about the loss of Calais, but for the French, it's great. It's a great moment. Obviously, for the English, not so much. But the reason why we got it back, when I say we, obviously the French guys. It's because Catherine gave a speech in the Parlement de Paris

and raised money and men for her husband. And he's going to win that battle and win back Calais because of Catherine. At that time, she becomes closer to Henry because Henry's like, oh my God, you're very intelligent. And Diane starts resenting Catherine because Catherine is starting to shine. And also Henry's growing up a bit and he's probably stopped sitting on her lap by now. And Diane's also getting older. And famously, Diane died in a very interesting way, which has been proven by toxicology. She drank gold.

Yeah. She believed it was the eternal youth serum. And so she literally guzzled gold and they found it in her bones. Yeah, but she's going to die way later. What a dumbass. Is that all right to say? I mean, you know, I'm all for women, but come on. Yeah, she was not. I don't like Diane. Anyway, so Catherine has reclaimed Calais from the English, which is a great humiliation for the English in 1558. Henri marries off his son, Dauphin Françoise, to the Duke of Guise's niece, Anne.

And her name is famous to history. She's Mary, Queen of Scots. Her daughter-in-law is Mary, Queen of Scots. Catherine. Oh, that's adorable. But we'll do Mary another day. Different episode. That blows my mind that Catherine and Mary, Queen of Scots...

hung out. Well, they didn't like each other that much. There was a tension. There was a push-pull. But yeah. Mary loved Diane. And Diane was a Guise, a French family, very close. So she loved Diane. And I think sometimes she was disrespectful to Catherine. Even with her son's

New wife. Catherine was kind of pushed out. Yes. Yes, you can put it that way. Catherine is now learning about oratory. She's learning about politics. She's also learning about another O, the occult. Shappi, have you ever heard of Nostradamus? Yes. Nostradamus was one of her advisors. No. Yeah.

My knowledge of history is so Swiss to cheese that I would have thought Nostradamus was like a few centuries before. Yeah, he does feel very medieval. To be fair, I would have thought the same if I didn't know. But he's banging around at the French court for some reason. Imagine that, wandering around. Oi, Nostro, let's go have a cup of tea. I wonder what she called him for short. History? Nostradamus?

Damas, Damas, Damas. Nobby. Nobby. In 1555, Nobby Nostradamus prophesies to his...

Yeah. He says the young lion will overcome the old. In a field of combat, in a single fight, he will pierce his eyes in a golden cage, two wounds in one. He then dies a cruel death. Yes. Now, what do you think that sounds like, Shappi? I think it might. Does it involve horses again? It does. It's a jousting injury. Oh.

And that literally happens. Now, I'm not saying Nostradamus is true. He might have just, you know, cold reading, whatever. But supposedly, Catherine also dreamed of it. So supposedly she has a nightmare vision that her husband's going to die in a joust. And she begs him not to go in the joust. He goes in the joust against... Montgomery. Montgomery. Who injures the king in the first joust. Yeah, and then he wants a revenge. So he does it again. And this time it goes through his eye. Yeah. Oh.

The lance goes through his visor, through his face, through his eye, splinters into the brain, and he... He died in ten days. Henri, her husband, is dead, which means Diane de Poitiers, out. Yes, that's the revenge. Yeah. Diane is out.

And she sent a letter to Catherine to apologise for all the years of humiliations. Yes. That happened to me once. Oh, ooh. Yeah. This queen. Right, no, I didn't know. But I once had a letter of apology from someone who was really horrific to me once they'd been, lost their power. Really? Isn't that fascinating? It is fascinating. Obviously, Catherine said, give me back Chenonceau. Yeah. So, you know, the H and D everywhere. She changed it D to C.

An agency. The beautiful castle. Yeah. And she took it back. I'm so glad she took it back. Tell me the name of the castle again. Chenonceau. Chenonceau. C-H-E-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N-C-E-O-N

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So Henri is dead, the king is dead, long live the king. Her son is now king. And Mary Stuart is queen of France. Right, so Mary Queen of Scots is now queen of France. Francois is king of France, but he's only 15. Shappi, you've got a teenage boy. I've got a teenage boy who is very into politics. Okay, how would he do at ruling the country? I think at 15 he would build really interesting town centres. So

So what level of power does the king have compared to the mother, Catherine de' Medici, who's now really running the show? Well, at that time, no, she's not yet very much running the show. And that's probably because of Mary Struth's family, the Guises. So she has very powerful, very powerful uncles, the Guises. So the Guises, G-U-I-S-E-S. Yes, the Guises. But Catherine is going to try, she's going to fight to remain an advisor to her son. And he's going to accept this.

But their relationship between her firstborn and herself, they're good. They're not very strong. He also really loved, I think he's the only husband that, you know, I can say that about Mary Stuart. He really loved Mary. And so his allegiance is going to go towards his wife and her family. So Catherine here is not really gaining much power, but she's growing in terms of like, she asked to be called Queen Mother of France. And that is a title that has never been given before.

And that's a very important title because in the title you have queen. I want to tell you that before Francis I had his mother, she was mother of the king. Yes. And you see the difference between mother of the king and queen mother. And that's an important title she gives herself.

And that's going to have more and more importance in the years to come. There's also another family who are jockeying at court. So we've got the Guises family. So that's Mary's uncles. They are pretty, pretty scary blokes. There's also the Bourbons who make delicious biscuits. They're led by Antoine, king of Navarre, which is Spain or sort of near Spain, Navarre. Navarre is a small territory between Spain and France. And as Havre,

had such a huge diplomatic importance for centuries. So Antoine and his brother Louis Condé. So you've got the Bourbon family, you've got the Guises family. They're on opposite sides politically and religion-wise. And they're royal blood. Both of them have like princes of blood in them. It's very important because when you're a prince of blood, it means you have a right to the throne. And the Guises effectively kidnap François. They sort of sweep into the palace and they sort of stick him in a cupboard.

and kind of rule for him? Yes. I mean, again, OK, that's, again, from a source that is like their detractors. But there's a bit of truth in that in terms of like they control them. Yeah. OK. So the Gheezes and Catherine are sort of sharing power at court. Catherine doesn't have that much power. Yes.

But the Guises renege on their loans. They cut the pensions. They don't pay the soldiers. They are not good at running the country. People don't like them, right? They send troops off to Scotland because of Mary, Queen of Scots. Yeah. So the French are starting to go, hang on a minute. But they also, of course, they're cracking down on the Protestants because the Bourbons are the Protestants. Yes. And the Guises are Catholics. Then we have more bad news. Francois II suddenly becomes very unwelsh, Shappi. Yeah.

And Catherine, having seen her, or seen many people in her life die, knows what's about to happen. Her big boy. Yeah. And she has to pull the emergency sort of parachute button and prepare the next one. She's sort of saying goodbye to Wild King and trying to prep the next one. And he's only nine. He's nine years old. Wow. Yeah. But they're quite sensible at that age. Well, OK, so your 15-year-old, your teenage boy would plan town centres. What would a nine-year-old do? Ask his mummy. Exactly. OK.

You sound like Catherine. I sound like a mother. Which son is this then? It's Charles. It's going to be Charles IX of France. He's totally, utterly under the control of his mother. And Catherine, she's become the matriarch of a family. We do now have the French Wars of Religion. Yes. And these are incredibly serious. And we are a comedy show, so we can't be too flippant here. But they kill over 2 million people. Yeah, over 30 years.

Yeah. Three decades, sure, but millions of people die in these wars of religion between Catholic factions and Huguenots. And Catherine's

sort of reign. I mean, she doesn't reign, but she's ruling. She's ruling at that time. She rules. Yeah, she's in charge. We have to now put this into the context of the time, right? So we have this horrible series of wars that last for 30 years, but they don't initially last for 30 years. They last for one year initially, and then there's a peace treaty. And then they start again. And then they start again. They always start again. There's always a mean where...

That's one thing about Catherine, like her dark legend, and even you see it in The Serpent Queen by Starz, is like she's the one instigating those wars. And she's not. There's no monarch. And mark my word here, it's not good for them to live in a realm where there's constant turmoil. Yeah, it's expensive. It's terrifying. You can't trust who's on your team. Exactly. You don't want wars ever. But we have a horrible massacre in 1562 at Vassy.

where the Huguenot worshippers... It's the Guises who are going to kill the Huguenots for worshipping. Vassisa is in their territory, in Lorraine, and on their way back to Joinville, they're going to see that the Huguenots are worshipping not outside of the town, but inside the town, and it's against the law.

And they decide to kill all of them. It's horrific in France. It's devastating, but also foreign powers get involved. So Philip the King of Spain sends 13,000 soldiers to the Catholic side. Elizabeth of England sends 6,000 men to defend the Huguenots and Prince Condé. The Duke of Guise is then assassinated on Orléans in 1563.

There's a peace treaty, the Edict of Amboise. Yes. And then that treaty does not last at all. And this war continues until 1598. From 1562 to 1598. So let's just sort of park that there and say, this is the political context in the middle of Catherine's rule is horrifying wars between... And her sons, yeah. And her sons, yeah. They don't have peace. Yeah. Yeah. So it's expensive, it's devastating, it's horrific.

But let's do something funny because it's a comedy show. I'm very sad now. Yeah, really sad. I've got to write in my notebook, sad now. OK, let's try and perk you up. Shappi, what do you think Queen Catherine's flying squadron was? Was it winged monkeys? OK, so they definitely didn't have planes. Nope. OK, did they have pigeons? They did have pigeons. So you're thinking what, carrier pigeon? Carrier pigeons or maybe hawks. OK.

It's a good idea. Is it a bird of prey? It is a good idea. They are not... They're preying on people, but they're not birds of prey. Oh. Well, I mean, maybe the geysers would call them birds, but no. Oh, they're women? They're women. Oh, wow. It's a sort of spy network of hot ladies. Yes. Again, I would just like to say that it's been also like... It's a myth around Catherine. What do they have flying squadron? So they're called the Flying Squadron and they were noble women. Mm-hmm.

between 80 and 300 noble women, well-born girls, who were there to basically flirt men, to manipulate them for Catherine's interest. But let me just say, like, historians have debunked that myth

Because it's important to say, because if Catherine had been that successful with so many women being able to flirt and obviously have sex with noblemen to get what she wanted, do you think she would have had such a hard time for the next 30 years? Probably not. That's one thing. But it is true that is Isabelle de Limoille. She became Condé's mistress. And Condé is a Bourbon. He's a Huguenot. He's a Huguenot. He's a Protestant. And...

It is true that there was like some inference from Catherine where she wanted to know what he had in mind, what he had planned. So she did seduce him to get information for Catherine and it worked.

But I think from that real example, they just made it up that Catherine was just basically paying women to sleep with men to get information. So that was our fun detour. Now back to the wars of religion. Yeah. Sorry. Thanks for that. Sorry, Shappi. I mean, the horrifying event, the key event is called St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. It's in 1572. Yeah.

Catherine is often blamed for this. Absolutely. So this massacre is that she wants to bring peace to France and she's going to give her daughter, her third daughter, Margaret, to Henry of Navarre, who's a Protestant. And the wedding is going to happen in Paris and they're going to invite all the Protestants. So all Protestants and Catholics are in Paris to celebrate the wedding.

And so far, so good. But the night of 23rd, 24th of August. 1572, isn't it? 1572. Thank you, Greg. The Guises have an opportunity to avenge their father's death in 1563. Because he'd been assassinated. He was assassinated in 1563 by Admiral de Coligny. He's going to ask for refuge.

to Catherine de' Medici, who's going to grant it. But then what happened next is that the Guises have lots and lots of support. They even have their own private armies. And they start killing. It's the massacre of Protestants, thousands and thousands. And it doesn't stop in Paris. It goes to Rouen. It goes to different cities. And Catherine is blamed for it. People said Catherine started it.

Catherine is the one who organized it, who plotted it, when Catherine is the one who actually opened the doors of her house with Charles, her son, to save as many Protestants as possible, including Sir Francis Worsingham, the English ambassador of Elizabeth I. There's no one in the 16th century who is a nice person in power. Like you have to be cruel. You have to be ruthless. You have to be ruthless. To survive. Yeah.

That's how power works in the 16th century. I mean, people have often commented she's very Cersei Lannister. That's the very Game of Thrones. I disagree with this. I know you do. And I think this is the thing. Catherine is often seen through the lens of other people from history. And it's an interesting legacy. 1574, King Charles dies. Her son dies again. She's now on to her third son. Yes. Another Henri. Always a spare. The spare for the spare. The spare for the spare. Charles...

Francis and Charles are both dead and now we're on to Henri. And she has another one. So she's like, it's OK. He's Hercule, isn't he? And so you've got Henri. He's having his go as king. Luckily, he's already had some useful work experience. Shappi, do you know why? Because he was in charge of the castle kitchens. Like a sort of Brooklyn Beckham type guy, is he? No, weirdly, he was king of Poland for a bit.

Oh, well, we all do. Yeah, of course. Just as king of Poland. I've been king of Poland. It's like the Duke of Edinburgh Award. So, Estelle, can you tell us about Henri, the new, new, new king of France? Henri III of France. He was elected king of Poland. And when Charles died, he had to smuggle out of Poland to go back to the French crown, which was awful because... Can you imagine being ditched by your king? No, but it was a massive diplomatic problem here because...

Catherine was like, come back here. And he's like, they're not going to be happy. I'll just be a king for a year. Like when you've applied for a new job and you're not told your... And now you have a better opportunity that you were not supposed to have. Right? It's like France is better, right? Sorry, guys. But that's how they felt at that time. So he had to hide. He went down a window and he roared at night. And it's just such a fascinating story. First of all, he was...

Absolutely gorgeous. I think that helps. I mean, people are like, oh, yeah, you don't know when you're kidding me. A Polish friend of mine told me that he's gorgeous. Yeah, he's a good-looking fella. They still talk about it. So gorgeous. He's dashing. He's absolutely dashing. Even Elizabeth I. He's dashing off. Sorry, chaps. Loved being king of Poland. Gotta go. What's very interesting is that there were rumours that he was a homosexual. He slept with his minion, his favourite, with...

his men. There is no evidence whatsoever of this. If at all, it's the contrary. And I'm going to tell you two reasons why there are these rumors about him and why they're not true. The first one is he had lots of mistresses, but because it's the only love story we're going to have here. He loved his wife. It was a love match. He chose Louise de Lorraine Vaudémont, who was a Guise, and her allegiance is going to go to him, not her family.

And then you have, obviously, I love that Shep, he's taking notes. And then the reason why as well, I know for sure that he didn't have any things with his Minion is because I've read Minions.

if not thousands of his letters. And he described his poo in his letters. So if he had had sex with one of his men, he would have said, oh my God, having you inside me last night was so amazing. He never did. He never did. All he did is like, I kiss your hands and feet. And it's just a mark of allegiance. People say, because he said that to a man, I kiss your hand and feet. It's just a mark of allegiance.

It's because he had sex with him. His mother did the same. She wrote to him, I kiss your hand and feet. It was actually a mark of legion, a mark of total loyalty. But he describes his poo. He keeps a poo diary. Honestly, what did he say about his poo? It was green and smelly. And he reported that to his... I'm sorry, guy. He reported that to his advisor. Can you imagine the Privy Councillor receiving the letter? My king had a green poo today and it was very smelly. So, Henri is now ruling.

Catherine is still sort of reigning a bit because she's still mother of the king. But she still finds time to meddle in the love life of her fourth remaining son, Hercule, who gets renamed François, Duke of Anonçon. Easier to say. And he's being dangled in front. In fact, Catherine is doing the dangling. She's dangling him in front of someone for marriage. Do you know who that would be?

I don't, but it really seems to me, given the times, this was a literal dangling. Who could it have been back then? Who's single and ready to mingle on the marriage market? I don't know. Oh, no. Red hair? Oh, it's not... I know red hair. Is it? It's not...

Joan of Arc, is it? No, is it Queen Elizabeth the First? It is. Oh, yes. Yeah. So he's a young lad. Lizzie, Lizzie, Lizzie. And he's being sort of pushed in front of Queen Elizabeth, who's much older. For 11 years of marriage negotiation, 11 years, Elizabeth said, yes, I will. No, I won't. Yes, I will. No, I won't. Maybe I will. Maybe I won't. I will. I won't. 11 years. I mean, you can call the French stupid. You can. Her nickname for him is Frog.

Yes. She nicknames him Frog. So she was quite a lot older than Hercule. Yeah, yeah, she is. Yeah, she was. Yeah, he's in his late teens. About 20, 25 years. And they've met each other twice. He came to England twice. And they partied together. I'm going to tell you a story. Did he sit on her lap and play the liar? I hope he didn't. I don't think she was the type of woman. But they had so much fun that she promised in front of everyone, I will marry you.

in front of everyone 1581 he's so happy he's like oh my god finally you know after 10 years can you imagine but imagine like thinking that someone's gonna marry you for 10 years and they don't and the next morning she said oh yeah about last night um i i i didn't mean it but it doesn't sound to you shabby tell me your honest answer that she was absolutely hungover like oh my god what did i say that's not i was gonna say we've all had mornings like that yeah that's kind of what you promised

I didn't have that, but she did. And I think it's hilarious that, you know, the next day, oh my God, what did I say? Oh, no, I didn't mean it. It's not going to happen. Well, he doesn't marry her, of course, because she remains the Virgin Queen. But Frances Urquhart sadly dies aged 29 in 1584 after a bungled military campaign in the Netherlands.

So Catherine is marrying off the daughters as well, which means she's sort of the grandmother of Europe. She is the grandmother of Europe. She's sort of, you know, she's arranging all these marriages and, you know. Well, she's the grandmother of the infanters of Spain. Yeah. Because she married her first daughter to Philip II. Yeah. And they had two daughters. And Spain is a superpower at this time, isn't it? Absolutely. France and Spain are superpowers. And then she has people in Lorraine and Tuscany. She is the grandmother of Europe.

And what about her final years, Catherine? I mean, she's quite old by this point, not like elderly, but she's lived a life by this point. So what's life like for her in the mid-1580s or so? Well, for her, it's very hard because in 1585, there's the Eighth Religious Civil War that is triggered, obviously, by the death of her son, her last son. Also, you have to realise that now, you know, she's counting her kids. Oh, my God. And there's still Henry, but Henry and herself, so her favourite son,

are going to drift apart because Henry III is going to make a secret alliance with Elizabeth I because he understands now that the Protestants don't want his crown, but the Guises and Mary Stuart want much power in Europe. So he's going to make a secret alliance and Catherine is going to get closer to the Guises, wanting to preserve the Catholic faith ultimately in France. So they drift apart. Catherine ends up hating Elizabeth I.

And when Elizabeth ordered the execution of Mary Stuart in 1587, Catherine is almost like, who does she think she is? Like, I hate this woman. And so you really have those two are drifting apart. They're fighting. And Henry III is going to commit a very horrible thing. He's going to order the murder of the Guises. And Catherine de Mechie is going to know that's the end. I think she really gets very ill.

At that time. So it's December 1588. She gets very ill and she has nowhere to recover because the country is in, honestly, it's hell. France is hell at that point. And she dies on the 5th January 1589. And I'm so glad she didn't see her favorite son, the beautiful Henry, murdered.

He's murdered a few months later, in August 1589. Yeah, he's assassinated, isn't he? He's assassinated. So she dies aged 69, France still ripped apart by a religious war, her son is murdered. And the question, I suppose, is how does France cope without her stabilising influence? But she's not managed to stabilise everything, obviously. So what happens to the Valois line, her dynasty? It ends, because obviously Henry dies in 1589 as well. It's the end of the Valois, and then you have Henri de Navarre

with his wife Margaret of Valois, who become king and queen of France. That's the end of the Valois dynasty. It's a life and a half, isn't it, Shappi? It is. We've gone through that. Really quite something. I don't know how any of them can be bothered. LAUGHTER

Wouldn't you, if you had all that money, just sit somewhere quietly and chill? Yeah, I'd just go to Chinonso and just make myself a cocktail and just read a book. Do some gardening. In front of a fire. Yeah, just play volleyball in the garden. Yeah. Just breed puppies. Wow. I know. But the thing is with Catherine is she was so...

alone in the world. Absolutely. She clearly had massive attachment issues and everyone that was like related to her by blood, she lost. So it does feel that the only way she had to even feel alive is to be powerful. Yeah. That's the only way she would, like a lot of very famous people that are bereft of unconditional love, they feel power is the only thing that will sate them.

And as we all know, that always leads to disaster. Yes. It does. It does. Well, there we go. That was quite wise of me. That was very wise. Very wise. I felt like we should just leave it there. Bye. The Nuance Window. Right, it's time now for The Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Shappi and I sit enraptured in our throne room while Estelle holds court for two minutes, tells us something we need to know about Catherine de' Medici. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Dr Estelle.

Well, I would like people to remember that Catherine is not the dark queen. All of this is absolutely untrue. And to show it to you, I'm going to discuss two things briefly with you. The first thing is the fact how much she loved her children, but also her grandchildren. She wrote loving letters to her granddaughters, the Spanish granddaughters.

She sent them gifts, monkeys, part of these gifts. I know, quite unusual. Not unusual for the time, if I'm really honest with you. But the thing that I find it very touching about Catherine is the way she treated Henry III's wife, Louise de Lorraine Vaudemont, who was a guise by blood, but a valoir by choice. And she gave her at her death, Chenonceau.

She gave jean also to this queen who was then going to lose, obviously, her husband and is going to fight until the end to get recognition for her husband because she really believed that, you know, he did what he did because of what was happening in France at the time with the guises. She was not perfect. And Greg, on that, you are totally right to point it out. To be in power, you have to be ruthless.

But she was not this horrible woman who poisoned anyone to get power. She was not this woman who created, you know, all the wars of religion. When you look at French books, it's always like Catherine the Magistrate's fault. And I think it comes because of, honestly, xenophobia against Italians, unfortunately, that, you know, prevailed in the 17th and the 18th century.

So it is quite important to remember Catherine as someone who truly loved her children, her grandchildren, and who tried to do her best for France and her family. Thank you very much. Beautifully said. That was really beautiful. I have so enjoyed, Estelle, your presentation.

for her. Thank you. It's been lovely and you've made me like her too. I'm so happy. What an extraordinary life and as we say, her childhood was so sad. Just to come back from that alone is impressive. So what do you know now? Music

This is our quickfire quiz for Shappi to see how much she has learned. We've done an awful lot of Henri's and Francoise's and all sorts of names. Are you feeling confident? Do you think, I mean, you've been taking great notes. I remember a Kuhl. Okay. I don't think he's in the quiz, but maybe, maybe we'll get lucky. But we've got 10 questions. Here we go. Question one. Which of the following is the most common?

Which family member acted as Catherine's guardian for much of her childhood from his fancy palace? It was Pope Clement. It was Clement VII. Well done. Question two. How did the French court unconventionally celebrate Catherine's marriage to Prince Henri in 1533 when they went to bed? They dipped some boobs in wine and...

Drank it. It did. It was an orgy. An orgy. A classic, absolutely. The dipping of the nipping. Yes. Question three. Why was Catherine a suspect in the death of her husband's older brother in 1538? Because his death meant that she would be queen. That's right. And he suddenly keeled over playing tennis. It was very suspicious. Question four. Who was Diane de Poitiers?

Diane de Poitiers was Henri, who was Catherine's husband's mistress. Very good. Well done, yeah. Are you seeing this? Not to be confused with Sidney Poitiers. No. Question five. Can you name three of Catherine's ten children? Yes. Margaret. Yes. Hercule. Yeah. And Henri. Very good. Question six. What allegedly was Catherine's flying squadron? Not monkeys.

Her flying squadron were allegedly beautiful women sent out to hoodwink men into giving them info. Very good. Question seven. How did her husband, King Henri II, die rather horribly? He died in a jousting... He did, yes, jousting and drinking face. Question eight. What was the name of the devastating conflict that lasted from 1562 to 1598 in France?

Something... St Bartholomew's Day. Oh, yeah. You have that. That's well done. Yeah, so it's called The Wars of Religion and the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre. Well done. Well remembered. OK. And question nine. Which powerful Catholic family did Catherine have to contend with during her time as regent and queen mother? The Giesers. Yeah, the Giesers. I've been waiting to say the Giesers. And you did it beautifully.

And this for a perfect 10 out of 10. Shafi Korsandi. Wow. Question 10. Which title did Catherine give herself that had never been used before in France?

It was the mother of France. The mother of the country? Yeah, queen, yeah. The queen mother, mother of the country. Mother of France. I'm giving you 10. I love mother of France. Yeah, giving you 10. 10 out of 10, Chaffee. That's the best I've ever done in any exam ever. And you did so well because we had so many random Henri's and Francoises just bouncing around. Do you know what? This has been so fascinating. I've really, really enjoyed this and I'm going to buy your book the minute I leave this studio. Yeah.

OK, well, thank you so much, Estelle. Thank you, Shappi. And listener, if you want to hear more of Shappi, you can check out our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, another fascinating royal rags-to-riches tale. Or, of course, the ancient Olympics episode, if you want to get your Olympics nostalgia vibes on. And for more quality queens, we have episodes on Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of Agy

And remember, if you enjoy the podcast, please leave us a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. And I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the excellent Dr Estelle Paranc from Northeastern University, London. Thank you, Estelle. Thank you so much for having me. I had so much fun, honestly. And in Comedy Corner, we have the sensational Shaparak Korsandi. Thank you, Shappi. Thank you so much. It's been fab.

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we crown another historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go and crash a wedding and dip my nips in everyone's glasses. Bye! This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Hannah Cusworth. It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse and our executive editor was James Cook. You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

Hello, this is Marion Keys. And this is Tara Flynn. We host a podcast you might like for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds called Now You're Asking. Each week we take real listeners' questions about life, love, lingerie, cats, dogs, dentists, pockets, or the lack of, anything really, and apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help, but also hopefully entertain. Join us, why don't you? Search up Now You're Asking on BBC Sounds. Thanking you.

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