Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
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BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. Today we are sharpening our language skills and sailing across the Atlantic to 16th century Mexico to learn all about the conquistador Hernan Cortes and his indigenous translator Malintzin.

And to help us understand this pair, we have a pair of very special guests. In History Corner, she's Senior Lecturer in the History of the Americas at Nottingham Trent University. Her research focuses on early modern Spain and Mexico, specifically religion, identity and empire. It's Dr Amy Fuller. Welcome, Amy. Thanks for having me. Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner...

She's a stand-up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her on all the TV shows, including Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Perhaps you've seen her on tour or read or listened to her hilariously honest memoir, The Other Mother, I Love the Audiobook, or her podcast, WTB, which I think is short for a slightly ruder title. And you'll definitely remember her from our episode on...

Emma of Normandy, an absolute classic. It's Jen Brister. Welcome, Jen. Oh, Greg, it's an absolute pleasure. We had a lot of fun last time in medieval England trying to remember that everyone was called Elfgivu. Oh, my God, what a name, Elfgivu. And not only that, not understanding or not having any knowledge about my own history, like, that is quite something. And now I'm half...

I'm half English and I'm half Spanish. So what I've realised is in the last episode, I knew nothing about English history. And today it'll be proven I know nothing about Spanish history.

And Mexican history? Mexican history, even less. OK. Do you know the name Cortez? I feel like he's a fairly big name from history. I recognise the name Cortez, but it wasn't... And I thought, I don't... Who is this chap? And it was after I did a cursory Google, Amy, I hope you won't mind, that I went, oh, that guy. Yeah. Yeah. So I do... Unlike last time I was on the podcast, where I had absolutely no knowledge at all of what was going on, I would say I have...

3.5% more knowledge on this particular subject. Oh, wow. So, yeah, guys, wait to be wowed. So, what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know, where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. I'm guessing you've heard the name Cortés, the conquistador. I feel like it's a name that's in the ether. He's appeared in all kinds of TV shows and films, most notably as the big baddie in the DreamWorks animation The Road to El Dorado. But unless you are Mexican or maybe American...

I suspect Melintzin. I imagine she's perhaps a lot less familiar as a name. She's the subject of several Spanish language plays, operas and books, and appears in some famous murals, one painted by Diego Rivera. In Mexico City, he was the husband of Frida Kahlo. Oh, yes, I do know who he is. Look at me. One point already. Well done. LAUGHTER

Now, Melinton has also been confusedly conflated with the Mexican folk tale of the wailing woman, La Llorona. Thank you. A vengeful ghost who drowns her own children. Yeesh, you don't want that in a children's movie, do you? Sometimes she stabs them. Well, it depends on the version. I don't think Disney's going to take up that story. No, no.

But was the real story of Cortes and Melintzin its own different horror story involving ghosts and stabbings? Maybe. How have their reputations changed over time? And what exactly is Moctezuma's revenge? Let's find out. Today we're doing a bit of a buy one get one free biography. We'll start with Cortes purely because he happened to be born first. So Amy, who was he? Is he an aristocrat? You know, when he's born, is he rich?

We don't know what his first name actually was. It was either Fernando or Hernando, which has been contracted to Enan. So we always call him Enan Cortes. But his name was Fernando or Enan Cortes de Monroy Empiricado Altamirano. He was born in 1485 in Medellín, which is in Extremadura in Spain.

It's the central west part of Spain bordering with Portugal. And weirdly, a lot of the conquistadors are also from here. They seem to all come from this area. So he was a hidalgo. He was petty nobility, we'd probably call him. Not very rich.

no titles but he would have had a duty to bear arms for his feudal lord and exemption from taxation. Fernando Hernando Cortes y Monroy Ipizarro Altamirano is a great name that does sound quite noble. That's like three too many names surely. It is, it's greedy. And what about his childhood? Was he goes to school, educated? Yeah we don't know a massive amount about him to be honest and there's differing ideas about

how educated he was. Some people say he went to the University of Salamanca for a time. We think he probably had some legal training. Right.

Fairly well educated, I'd say. He tells us a lot about himself. He is his favourite subject. Gotcha. So there's an element of him telling his own history that he wants people to know. Oh, very much so. Fair enough. But in 1492, do you know what happened in 1492, Jen? Oh my gosh, don't ask me. Do you want me to guess? Yeah, go on. So he's born in 1492.

1485 so in 1492 he is what seven he is so he is sent away that's a good guess he's sent away to school yeah well more broadly in history what do you think is happening in terms of Spanish history or global history in 1492 some kind of war

I mean, there are a lot of wars, but it's Columbus. Right. So I was going to ask you to contextualise Columbus in this. OK, go on. Hernán Cortés is seven years old. Columbus sails on behalf of the Spanish king and queen in search of India and bumps into what's called the New World, inverted commas. It's obviously not new to the people who live there. So what makes Hernán Cortés decide he wants to follow in Columbus's wake? Because soon after, like 10, 12 years later, he's on a ship.

Yeah, he's off to seek his fortune in the New World. He arrives in 1504, so he's 19, and he goes off to a place called Hispaniola, which is now Haiti and the Dominican Republic.

At that point, that's the base of operations in what they called the Indies. At this point, the Caribbean is on its way to being decimated, basically. They kind of round up lots of indigenous people and they get them panning for gold, which kills a lot of people, mainly because they work them to death, essentially. Right.

plus all of the disease that they bring from Europe. Cortez does make a bit of money from this initially. So the idea is that they're going to populate this new world with settlers and one by one they keep going to different islands, basically. And murdering people. Yeah. Yeah, OK. That sounds very familiar. Yeah. And the indigenous people that lived in Haiti and in the Dominican Republic, would they have...

any sort of relation to the Incas or... Like, Mexico's not that far away. Yeah. Were they more similar to...? They had smaller towns, so you don't find the kind of big cities with the pyramids and things like that in the Caribbean, but you do see decent-sized kind of towns that's been kind of rewritten to make it seem like they're just in kind of mud huts, but actually...

through archaeological research we found that they did actually live in decent sized towns. They were supposed to go and convert them to Christianity and therefore they shouldn't have been allowed to enslave them.

but they just kind of enslaved them instead. It happens. You pop out there to talk about Jesus Christ, and before you know it, you've got, you know, hundreds of thousands of slaves. Yes. We should probably turn to Melintzin. In 1504, Cortes is 19 years old. Melintzin is...

a toddler at this point yeah so we think she was born in 1500 okay we don't really know much about her or her early life we

We think that her father was of some kind of nobility, but we think that her mother was enslaved. She's Nahuatl, so she's from central Mexico, but she's not Aztec. That's quite important. She's from an area that gets taken over by the Aztecs. It's kind of on the Gulf Coast. She's sold into slavery with the Maya, essentially, when she's a young girl, we think.

She lives among the Maya for quite a time. And we don't even know her real name, right? We know her by her later... No, we only know her baptismal name, which was Marina. And Malintzin comes from that because there's no R in Nahuatl. So they would hear Malina, but they put the Zin at the end, which is an honorific title. So that is essentially Doña Marina in Nahuatl.

Oh, OK. So you say she was kidnapped, sold into slavery by the Maya, who were different people entirely from the Aztecs, who were different people entirely from the Nahuatl. Yes. Well, you could be... If you were Aztec, you were Nahuatl, but you didn't have to be an Aztec if you were Nahuatl. Gotcha. OK. So Melinston, she is Nahuatl. She's not Maya and she's not Aztec. Yes, no. So she's from a different group entirely. And the Nahuatl people are...

So they are... Who? Basically everyone who lives in the central region of what's now Mexico. So basically where the Aztec Empire was. And you've mentioned the Aztecs. In our heads, I guess, over here in the UK, we know the Aztecs as like the dominant superpower of the region. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Is that wrong? No, it's not wrong. But what people often refer to them as is ancient. They call them ancient Aztecs and they're early modern, if anything, not even medieval. Yeah, this is the same time as Henry VIII. Yeah, so they rise to prominence in the 1420s. They managed to create this empire that's spread from the Pacific to the Gulf Coast in 100 years, basically. But it's...

It's patchy. And this becomes a problem later on. They don't conquer everywhere. They're not after territory. It's a very different idea than we understand an empire to be. It's a franchise? Is it like Starbucks? They're after tribute. So both in terms of goods that they want, but also people for sacrifice. So they essentially don't bother...

to conquer anyone who doesn't have what they want or is too difficult to conquer. If listeners want to know more about the Aztecs, we did them in series one. So scroll all the way down in the app to the very, very beginning.

But that's the political powder keg that is awaiting the Spanish spark, Jen, as you've pointed out, actually, that we've got all these different sort of power bases. But let's get back to Cortes. He's in Hispaniola. So he's not got to Mexico yet. No, no one has at this point. And he is, well, we've already heard he's doing horrible things to the indigenous peoples. He's trying to get cash, but he's got a job.

Yes. Is he a legal job? Yes, he's a notary for a while. And then in 1511, he takes part in the conquest of Cuba, which was organised by Diego Velasquez, who then becomes the governor of Cuba. Yes. Adopted.

Initially, Velazquez is very impressed by him. He becomes his secretary and that's when Cortés starts to rise to prominence. He gains more wealth and power. He's granted what's called an encomienda, which is essentially...

It's legal slavery, basically. Oh dear. Yeah, okay. It's a grant of indigenous labour. So you don't actually own the people because they're supposedly Spanish citizens, right? Yeah. But you have control of their labour. So it is basically slavery. Sure. Okay. Yes. So forced labour that the Spanish crown is allowing to happen. Yes.

Yes. Okay. Yes. So the encomienda system is obviously being cooked up to exploit the indigenous peoples. But the relationship with Velazquez, who's sort of his boss, sort of his patron, sounds quite tense, Jen. It sounds quite... Competitive? Competitive, yes. Why do you think they fell out? What do you reckon the spark was? Oh, well...

You've said that Cortes is very ambitious. He probably realises that if he's going to promote himself, he probably needs Diego Velasquez's job at the bare minimum, or at least to get rid of him so that he can have more control, more authority. I don't know. I mean, that's certainly the conventional way, but actually there's a woman involved. There's a lady involved.

Oh my goodness, there's always a lady. There's a woman involved. And it's not a love triangle. No. It's a love rhomboid. It's a sort of weird... Yes. So they fall out for a few different reasons. In 1514, Cortes leads a group of settlers who aren't happy with their lot.

essentially, in almost a bit of a rebellion. So that obviously doesn't go down particularly well. So you were sort of right there, Jen. He tries to strike out on his own. He does, yeah. Doesn't quite land, OK. But then he also... Cortés has a relationship with a Spanish woman who is the sister of... So Cortés shares an encomienda with a guy called Juan Suárez. He gets involved with his sister, Catalina Suárez. That family come over with the vicerean

as his sisters become ladies-in-waiting. Catalina's one of them. There's the mum and about three or four sisters. Now, Velazquez is in love, apparently, with one of these other sisters. Oh, no. And so there's an understanding that if you get engaged to a woman, then you can start sleeping together. And so Cortez gets engaged to Catalina.

and then fobs her off, tries to run away. And apparently because Velasquez was in love with her sister, he puts... He jumps with the family on her. Yes. And he throws Cortez in prison for...

for this? So that he, so he asks for Catalina's hand in marriage. And then. So that he can sleep with her. Yeah. And then goes, do you know what? I'm not into this anymore. Yeah. I've slept with you, but I've actually don't want to do this engagement. And so, so then Velasquez goes, oh, you can't do that. So I'm going to defend my, your, her sister's honour. Yeah. Yeah.

and now I'm going to have a duel. No, because it was legally binding and you could, if you were kind of the scorned fiancé, you could sue. So that's essentially what Catalina did and then eventually he relents and goes, OK, all right, I'll marry you then. That is the most romantic thing I've ever heard. What a wonderful rom-com. Oh, that's...

The happy ending we were all looking for. Come on, Richard Curtis, pull your finger out. This is the story we want to see. Run to the airport, run to the jail cell. I love you really, probably. I don't know. That's a great title. I love you maybe, probably. I don't know. I have to point out again, Joan, I'm so sorry, but we're in a double name situation again. We had Elkifu, Elkifu, Elkifu multiple times and we've got Catalina, Catalina. What? Because Cortez's mum is Catalina. Oh, no. Right.

He also calls one of his children Catalina. Come on. There's other names, guys. There's other names. This is why we've got you back, Jen. We only do it for episodes if we share names. I appreciate it. So, OK, so his wife, begrudgingly, is Catalina Suarez. Catalina Cortez? Or does she keep the Suarez? Oh, no, they don't change. They don't change their names. So she continues with her name. But this seems to mend the rift.

Velázquez and so Cortés becomes the mayor of Santiago in Cuba. So he does well out there. Oh, it's a happy ending for the good guy. Exactly. Great. So Cortés and Velázquez are besties again. He was climbing the ranks. He was the mayor of Santiago and then in 1518 Velázquez gave him another promotion and this one is an expedition promotion. I want you to go and explore, conquer,

Well, explore and trade were the orders. The age-old trade. Can you go and trade, please? And bring lots of swords. Yeah. And where is he going? So he's off to the Yucatan.

In 1517, they finally, even though they're right next to it, it takes them forever to find the Yucatan. It's just there. And the Yucatan is the peninsula of eastern Mexico, right? Yes, yes. I've been there on holiday, it's lovely. So there are two expeditions before Cortés' expedition. So the first one goes in February of 1517. That's led by a guy called Francisco Hernández de Córdova,

Many of the people didn't survive. They basically get attacked by the Maya and most of them die, including the leader of the expedition. But they realise that there's a place with these big cities and so they think, well,

want to investigate that. So you say, we said promotion, but is this Velázquez sending Cortés off to his death? Well, the second, so the second expedition which leaves in 1518 in May is led by another guy called Juan de Grijalva. That guy fares a little bit better.

And he actually manages to meet some Aztecs as well. And that's where they find out about this great city called Tenochtitlan and Moctezuma and lots of treasure and things. And so this obviously piques Cortes' interest. So despite the fact that there are other candidates who would be more experienced, Velazquez gives him the job to go on the next expedition

So the one in 1517 is Francisco. Very bad, yes. Doesn't go well, everyone dies. 1518 is led by... I'm sorry, what was the name? Juan de Grijalva. Juan de Grijalva.

Juan de Grahalva. Okay, so Juan goes out in 1518 and that fair is a bit better because they meet the Aztecs. Yes. Nobody dies? Some people die. Some people die. There is some death. Some partridge speech, isn't it? One person dies. There's still some death. Not quite as catastrophic as the first one, but it's not great. And then Velazquez goes, listen, third time lucky. Yeah. What do you reckon? Once more with feeling. Yeah.

I've got a really good... I reckon this time they'll welcome us, yeah? Yeah. So this is the third... Third time. Third time, and he's like, I've got a good feeling for you, Cortez. Yes, yes. Now, Velasquez...

to hear rumours that Cortes has plans that don't involve him. And so at the last minute Velazquez says, no, I don't want Cortes anymore. Let's not do this. However, Cortes kind of sticks his fingers in his ears and goes, la, la, la, la, la. Oh, really? And he manages to... He goes to the other side of Cuba, basically, and gets more men, more supplies, and

and then heads off I think he goes to another bit of Cuba and he evades arrest about four times I think and then finally yes basically finally sets off

In 1519. And he founds Veracruz, the first Spanish town in Mexico. He immediately divorces Velázquez from his sort of chain of command, right? He's just like, I founded a town and I answer to the Spanish king and Velázquez is dead to me and everything's fine. So how... War. But what about... So he's now...

But he's going to have to come back. So when he comes back, is he just going to... Is he though? Just to let you know, I'm not listening to you anymore. I mean, how does that work? So he's not coming back. Yeah. He's not. Catalina's like, what? But I love you. He's not coming back so much so that he burns the boats so that no one can go back. No way. Okay. All right. So his men are like...

I wanted to go back just to get a bit of feedback. I actually left my wife and children back there, actually. She's like, tough. No, you're not going back. OK. We know all about this from his first letter, essentially. It's an amazing letter. It is. It's not even a letter. It's like a rant. Yes. So he knows, essentially, that in the meantime, Velazquez will have obviously written to the king and said, look, there's this complete wrong-un who's...

gone, you know, rogue. He's off gallivanting. I don't even know what he's doing. And so Cortes knows all of this. So he doesn't even make it a letter from him. He makes it a letter from the town council of Veracruz. That he's founded. That he has founded. And essentially it's an insane letter. But he

essentially discredits Velazquez. He says that he is greedy. He's not doing any of the converting that he's supposed to be doing. He's only interested in his own personal wealth.

He says that the first two expeditions were a total rubbish, got nowhere, that also they were not interested in converting anyone, which, you know, was essentially the legal reason for them to be there. And so Cortes rants and rants and rants and then talks about how great he is, how he, oh, I put all of my fortune into this. Every step of the way, I've done everything by the book.

I've converted everyone to Christianity. I've made sure, you know, I took fries with me and I... It's a massively long letter. Do you think Elon Musk read this letter and went, this guy sounds like someone I need to model myself on? So, because I was going to ask you, why on earth...

If you have founded a town and you have had a successful expedition, isn't it that you want to go back to Spain with all this glory and go, look at me, I did this, I've got a town, I've created this, I'm the big guy, not this guy. Why would you burn all your boats to stay? Because he's essentially a fugitive.

because he's gone over the head of Velazquez, therefore he's a traitor, essentially. But lots of people write about this, saying, you know, they describe Cortez as this kind of, oh, he made all these risky decisions, and it's like, I'm sorry if...

I was going to be arrested for treason and hung. I'd be a bit of a maverick too, quite frankly. Right. Once you've done one crime, you can't go back and go, I'm so sorry. Sorry about the crime. He's got to double down. He wants Tenochtitlan. He wants the treasure from Moctezuma. We know he's ambitious. We know he's ambitious. So he's obviously trying to feather his own nest.

Tiny bit of trivia that's completely unrelated to the history, but I love it, is that the actor who voiced Cortez in the Road to El Dorado animation also was the voice of Winnie the Pooh. And so I'm just... I mean, that is upsetting. I'm just hearing the voice of Winnie the Pooh whenever Cortez speaks. Of course, Winnie the Pooh craves pots of honey. Cortez is after pots of money. So he's off. He's off seeking gold and glory. 1519. And he is going to meet Melanson. Finally, we get our meet-cute, except it's not a meet-cute. It's a meet-yuck.

Because she is enslaved and he is arriving as a conqueror. Yes. So Melintzin is one of 20 girls, I guess she's only 19, given to the Spanish conquistadors by the Maya as a kind of diplomatic gesture. Right. So, yeah, she's a present.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're not sure at what point it becomes clear that she has really useful linguistic abilities. Right. Cortés has shown up, obviously not able to speak any of the languages spoken by the indigenous people he's meeting. He's like, you know, hola! And they're like, what? So that's not going to work. So how does the translation work then? You know, if Cortés wants to say something to the Maya...

What he also does is he picks up some Spanish men who had been shipwrecked in the Maya region and had lived with the Maya for a time. So they could speak Spanish and Chontor Maya, I believe. So she could speak Maya and Nahuatl. So Cortes would speak to a guy called Jeronimo de Aguilar and Chontor.

he would then speak Maya to Melintzin and then she would speak Nahuatl to any Aztecs. Ooh, it's just like a chain of... And then backwards, if the other way around. You know, that never works well, does it? With the old whispers. It's like, hang on a sec, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. Yeah. But then she's got quite a lot of power because then she can translate anything in any which way she can. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? Once, in a way. Like...

Oh, yeah, he said this. Did he? Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. We think she learnt Spanish quite quickly. And actually, Aguilar, he becomes kind of almost obsolete quite early on. Yeah, OK. So then she can kind of do...

Does she become Marina then and there? Yeah, so she's baptised as Marina. She would never have been regarded as a slave among the Spanish because as soon as he starts to kind of conquer, then she's a Spanish citizen, essentially. Yeah, she's baptised and then obviously can't enslave Christians anyway, or not supposed to. LAUGHTER

But, yeah, she was incredibly important. They wouldn't have, you know, been able to do anything without her, essentially. Not only can she, you know, tell people what he wants to say and vice versa...

She also understands the etiquette, which is incredibly different. So she understands the etiquette of the Spanish and she also understands the etiquette of the Mayan. Is it the Mayan people? The other Nawa people. The other Nawa people. Yes. The Maya too, but it's the Nawa people that are more... That are in that part of... More kind of important to the conquest of the country.

And Cortez is presumably using charm and violence, those two lovely combinations. Yeah, essentially, he learns quite early on that the Aztec Empire isn't as solid as he thought it was. And he also learns that there are certain groups who aren't happy with the Aztecs.

He gets the Totonacs on side initially by capturing an Aztec tax collector. So the Totonacs aren't happy with the amount of tribute they're paying. So he basically captures the tax collector and says, look, join us and you'll be free. Right. Now, the most important allies that he picks up are the Tlaxcalans. They hate the Aztecs, absolutely hate the Aztecs.

But they put up a big fight against the Spanish for quite a while. They're not happy to go to their side, mainly because they see them with the Totonacs, who were allies of the Aztecs, essentially. And they're like, well, we don't trust you. So there are many battles before the Tlaxcalans eventually decide to allow them to come to side. I feel like the Spanish have arrived...

There's not that many of them. No. They seem very annoying. They're going around telling people what to do. Oh, you can do that and I'll do that. And it's like, why don't they, the Tutanaks and the Mayans and everybody, they get together and go, let's just kill these Spanish guys because they are...

a pain in the butt. And they keep talking about some guy called Jesus. I don't know who he is. What do you say? I mean, it seems like somebody missed a trick very early on. Yeah, well, the Tlaxcalans do... At one point, it seems like the Tlaxcalans might actually finish them off. The Spanish really have to think about their tactics in order to

to not be killed, basically. The thing that the Spanish have, which helps them, is obviously their steel swords. Yeah. And... Gunpowder? Yeah, although... But that will run out, surely. More's been made about the gunpowder than actually, like...

It's useful, long range. Sure. But what the Spanish found was they had to stay in their kind of military kind of formations and not disperse whatsoever because the moment they dispersed, they were just picked off one by one. But also Cortes had the idea that they just needed to be really visible. So...

They wouldn't fight at night. That was kind of just not done. So at night, Cortez would kind of say, right, we're going to kind of make ourselves visible so they know that we're not dead yet. You know, we're going to keep going, we're going to keep going. And then they kept trying to send gifts to them as well to say, look, you know, we come in peace. We don't want to fight you. There are factions within the Tlaxcalans who...

some of them don't want to join the Spanish at all. And had they got their own way, they probably would have killed them. We're talking an army of 600 Spanish soldiers. It's not a huge army. No. If it had gone the other way, perhaps if they hadn't got on that well with the Aztecs, maybe the Tlaxcalans would have said sod it.

So we have to conquer Tenochtitlan. Well, we're not going to do it. Cortes is going to do it. A vast, vast citadel, an incredibly sophisticated, huge city. Yeah. And 600 Spaniards show up and some allies. Yeah, with about 2,000 slash-talons, probably. So about 2,500 people show up on the doors of this vast imperial citadel.

And they just, what, ring the doorbell and say, hello, we've come to conquer you? So along the way, obviously Moctezuma has heard about this. He has people all over his empire who can kind of go back and tell him things. So he's the Atec emperor? Yes, we call the Tlatwani is the real word, which means he who speaks, but we tend to call him the emperor. I should take that title. That's my job. Seriously?

I think we can all take that as I say. So he has spies that have told him about all of this. And actually, he would have known about them for at least a year before Cortez even got to set up Veracruz because the previous guy met an Aztec kind of diplomat. And so he would have known that they're these weird guys. Is he not like...

We've got to do something about these guys. Yeah, well, they set traps for them, which were intercepted by the Tashkalans, by Melintzin. They found out about things that were... OK, so Cortez is about to step on various booby traps. Yeah, basically. Don't step on that, don't eat that. No, that's not a fruit. That's a grenade. Yeah. Moctezuma also sends people out with gifts and things. Chocolate? Yeah, probably. But also gold, which is not...

So in Aztec terms, that's basically a show of power and it would have sent the message of back off. I've got all of this power. But obviously... Yeah, to Cortez, he's like... To Cortez, he's like, these guys love us. They're giving us gold. This is great. Come on, let's...

And so we know that Moctezuma meets Cortes. Yes, yes, on a causeway. And then suddenly the city falls. I mean, that's very truncated. Yes, Moctezuma invites them into the city. So his idea, and he's been painted very badly for this, but there's a few reasons why he does this. For a start, once they're in the city, they're at,

their hosts, basically, so they can control them to a certain extent. Their weapons don't work quite as well either in the confines of the city, but also Moctezuma would have been thinking, well, we can't have a battle kind of outside of the city because if it looks like we're losing, everyone else is going to join. Going to pile on. Oh, right. They're going to control the narrative. Yes, exactly. So although he's been... People...

say that he was stupid for doing this. There are reasons. PR is important. It is. You've got to keep on top of that sort of thing. Yeah, so they first meet, it's November, so definitely by April. So they're there for ages. So November 15, 19, six months later. So definitely by then, but probably sooner, but we don't know when. Cortez basically kidnaps Moctezuma. Yeah. And they have this very strange thing.

where Moctezuma's pretending that everything's fine because if he lets on, his people will essentially get rid of him and get the next Aztec emperor. I mean, have they not noticed there's something going on? Yes. Well, he pretends that they're just, like, at leisure together. It's very weird. This weird situation where he's got hold of Moctezuma gets... It comes to an end because Cortes hears that

Velasquez has finally got his together. Oh, I forgot about him. We forgot about Velasquez, didn't we? And sent a massive army to arrest Cortés. No friars, just an army? No, just the army, yeah. So I think it's May, May of 1520, basically, Cortés hears he has to race off to the Gulf Coast...

He manages to convince those guys to join him. Nice. He is very persuasive, this guy. He's a charmer. He is a charmer. In the meantime, he leaves a guy called Pedro de Alvarado in charge of...

we don't know if he does hear these rumours or not but his version of events is that he hears rumours that the Aztecs are going to attack them so they engage in a massive massacre basically wait wait sorry I feel like we've gone and then there was a massacre so so the

The Spanish army have arrived. Yeah, Cortés races off to face them down. Yeah, he's got... He's going, right, you guys join me. And they're like, love to. Yeah, here's all the gold I've got. Like, come get some gold. Yeah, look, I mean, we're loaded. Why would you stick with the Velazquez guy? Meanwhile, Pedro de Alvarado has left back in the city of Tenochtitlan. Yes. He then goes, oh, I've just heard the Aztecs are threatening to kill us all. We'd better kill them first. Yes, basically. So then he just goes on a...

Yeah, and it's unarmed people as well. So basically there's a big festival and they seal off this kind of temple precinct and kill lots of unarmed people. That's not the orders from Cortez then? No, no. So when Cortez finds... Or at least Cortez tells us it's not. I don't know.

He doesn't... Yeah, we can't trust him. He's not going to leave any evidence of his complicity, is he? He knows what he's doing. Oh, my... This Cortez guy. Yeah. And so Moctezuma appears on a terrace to convince his people to sort of calm down. Yeah. And then...

Somehow he dies. Yeah, so... I'm sure his people killed him. His people aren't very happy with him, obviously. Actually, Melinton also goes on the terrace and tries to convey his messages. The conquistadors' version of events is that he is hit with a slingshot and later dies of his wounds. However, the indigenous version of events is that he gets stabbed.

basically, by Cortés because he's no longer of any use, basically. So that's the end of Montezuma. Cortés is now in control, I think we can say. It's quite interesting because I didn't know, and this makes a lot of sense, that the Spanish had allies amongst other indigenous communities or people. I just assumed that all of the Aztecs were murdered by the conquistadors, like the Spanish. But they actually...

They actually got help. Cortes then continues and Mexico is conquered by Spain and it becomes part of the Spanish Empire and sends home all the silver and gold back to Spain. So that's sort of the conquest story. And then Melintzin at this point has kind of done her job.

No. Could she not just go, all right, job done, thanks very much, I'm off? She's so important that she becomes part of the conversion effort as well to begin with. And she also is involved in other missions that Cortez goes on, like to Honduras, for example.

So she's... Yeah, she continues to be his right-hand woman. I mean, they have a kid together, don't they? They do. We have no idea, obviously, how consensual that was, but they have a child called Martine. But she doesn't marry Cortez because he's married...

So she's with Cortés, but she then marries another Spanish captain? Yes, she marries a guy called Juan Jaramillo in 1524. He's one of the captains. We actually think that she probably wasn't given to him, that actually it was her choice to have this kind of...

Because she would have understood that that was the way that she could acquire kind of her own power and everything. So it seems to be strategic. The interesting thing about Melitza is that's sort of where the story ends. She dies quite young. She dies in 1529 when she's only, she's barely 30 yet, if that. So that's quite sad. And that's where we leave her in the story, apart from perhaps in your nuance window. But what about Cortez? Does he then say...

oh, big thanks to Melintzin. Is there a sort of in-memoriam section where he's like, she, you know, I really needed her? Or does he...

just sort of pretend she never really did anything important? No, we think she... Sorry, we think that he rewarded her with an encomienda as part of her dowry. So she got enslaved workers too? Yeah. Right. But she... Which means that she would be one of only, I think, three indigenous people who were given permanent encomiendas. Right. So that...

shows kind of just how important she was. And Martín gets sent to Spain and actually lives with the Spanish royalty. So he and Cortés formally recognises him as his son as well. Right, so they're legitimate there. Yeah, he legitimises him. Cortés does downplay her a bit in his letters. Oh, yeah. But other writers sort of put her back into the picture at the time. Yeah, so...

What we have to remember, obviously, with Cortés' letters are it's the Cortés show and this is all about me and you can't do this without me so you can't possibly, you know, arrest me and try me for treason. So nobody gets a look in apart from Cortés, really, in his letters. But Bernal Diaz in particular, the conquistador, he loves her. He writes about her as if she's a saint.

he compares her to Joseph of the Technicolor Dreamcoat fame. Wow. Yeah, he says that, you know, they both like colour. Yeah, and, you know, sold into slavery as a child and he's got a whole scene where she goes back to her family and forgives them for what they did to her even though that's probably

Probably never happened. Sure. Feels like a romantic trope. It's a bit of a hagiography thing. Yeah, yeah, it does feel very saintly. Do we know how she died? I think she just kind of succumbed and in the end got one of the many diseases that the Europeans so kindly brought over.

And she was so young. It's like she really only, in that whole period, was around for a decade. And within that decade, she had such a huge influence. I think also when you're a young woman and you've got literally no agency, you grab it where you can, don't you? You do. How does history view her? Do historians view her kindly? Not so much. Well, historians, it depends on...

So essentially we have the big, great, great, I'm putting quotation marks around that, historian of the conquest. He's a Victorian and the Victorians have a lot to answer for in terms of history being written called William Prescott. He is the biggest Cortez fanboy. He is obsessed.

with Cortes to the extent where he desperately wants to find his tomb. He wants an engraving of... He never actually goes to Mexico. He kind of acquires stuff from Mexico, but he keeps asking. Yeah, basically. So he essentially wants... You know when kids do those rubbings? Yeah. So he wants that of his tomb. He also wants to collect Aztec skulls to go in the tombstone

Yeah, in the Indigenous American Skull collection in Harvard. So, yeah, he's a problematic guy. And he not only kind of, he does say she's important, but he also sexualizes her quite a lot and talks about basically that her linguistic skills also included the language of love.

I mean, where's he getting that from? There's absolutely no evidence of that at all. Dirty old man. Yeah. So for a long time, Cortes was viewed favourably for many centuries and would have been lauded and applauded. This brings us to my next question, actually, Amy, because for so long, Cortes has been on the run from the Spanish authorities. People have been sending armies after him. But he finally conquers Mexico, which means presumably he gets to go to the King of Spain

hello, this is yours because of me, so do you want to let me off and give me a job? I mean, does he get a reward? So, yes, he does. Initially, he becomes the governor of what they call New Spain, which is what Mexico is called initially. Yeah, he does get rewarded. He also makes sure to have his letters published very quickly. So they're all... I think there's five of them and they're all published by 1525. Just so...

His legacy is secure. He gets made governor of Mexico, but it doesn't always... He's too hot-headed, isn't he? He is. He can't just settle for something and go, this is fine, this is enough. No, he... Uh-oh, what does he do? Well, he gets too big for his boots, basically. He's been too big for his boots for about two decades. So part of the thing, in one of his last letters, he promises the king that he's not going to use the encomienda system.

Because back in Spain, they're not liking it. They know that it's been responsible for the death of so many indigenous people, especially in the Caribbean. And he says, we won't do that. We won't do that here. Then he realizes that Moctezuma doesn't have quite as much treasure as he'd hoped in order to reward his men. So how does he reward his men?

using the encomienda system. So he basically tells the king, oh, you know that thing I said I wasn't going to do? Well, I did it anyway. And then the king says, don't do that. And if you've given any out, you take them back. And Cortes argues back again, and that doesn't go so well. So yeah, so the king appoints an investigator, Ponce de Leon, to come after him, strips him of his governorship in 1526. Yeah.

Yeah. And Cortés does the classic apprentice candidate thing of banging on the boardroom door saying, let me in, come on, I've got to... And then Cortés is accused of poisoning Ponce de Leon. Yeah, so Ponce de Leon dies quite soon after he arrives. The second guy who is sent to investigate him also dies within, like, eight months. What are they dying from? I think they're dying from Cortés, that's probably... Yeah, we don't know. I mean, some people have said...

It might have been Cortes, but we're not 100% sure about that. But yeah, in 1528, Cortes goes back to Spain to talk to the king. He's well-received. He's even given a title. He's removed from being the governor of New Spain, but he's made the Marquess of the Valley of Oaxaca, given a massive encomienda. Wait a second, but that doesn't make any sense.

He just said, don't do it, because that goes against our values. But when you come back, that'll be your reward, baby. Yeah, it's OK if the king gives them out, but nobody else. Also, it's not actually slavery they have a problem with. It's like who can give out slaves. And then obviously we mentioned Catalina very early in the episode. His lovely wife that he left behind. 1522 he'd left her behind. She comes out to see him at last.

And they have a party and then she's found dead. There's reports of finger marks on her throat. Yeah. As if throttled. Yeah, basically. So she's brought out in August of 1522. So a year after the conquest is complete. And she's not very happy because obviously he's been shagging everyone.

At this point, Melincon is pregnant with Martine and everyone knows who fathered that child. So it's a very uncomfortable situation for Catalina. She's not very happy with all his other women. They have a lot of rows about this, apparently, and one night in October, they have a party and people overhear them rowing and about midnight, he...

kind of runs out of the room and says, she's dead, she's dead. There are kind of, yeah, finger marks on her throat according to testimony. The guys who testify on his behalf say that she was a very sickly woman and she used to faint a lot. And Cortez says that the reason why there are finger marks around her throat is because she fainted and he tried to

her from fainting catch her fruit first yeah as is traditional yeah he also gets rid of her body very quickly has a very quick funeral which is not typical yeah yeah I mean I mean I'm not Miss Marple but I can I don't know Jen do you know what I mean I'm feeling that maybe

Maybe we can pretty much guarantee he killed her. And his motive for killing her was like, oh, you're just wanging on too much. Or I just want to, I haven't seen you for however many years and now I just want to live my life. Yeah, I'm bored. You're dragging me back. By that point, he seems to think that she's not quite befitting his status. And he does end up marrying a woman of much higher status. And it just so happens that

her uncle testified in on his behalf in this whole investigation pure coincidence Amy what are you talking about I mean honestly the way all of the men in this entire historical period Jen you're holding your eyes like you've got a migraine absolutely appalling human beings and

Typically, once again, there is one woman and she's the one that is vilified. Melinsin. Well, two women, one of whom's murdered. One of the many Catalinas. It's absolutely incredible. So despite us knowing all of this, Cortez is a hero.

Well, I mean... Not now, but then. He's constantly investigated, isn't he? Yes. They're constantly trying to investigate him for murder, for embezzlement, for not following orders. He is ruthless. He is avaricious. Even the Spanish think that. But he gets away with it. Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's partly because he manages to cement himself in the legacy of a conquest by publishing these letters. They can't really ignore him, but he also drags out this investigation for years and years and years. Because he's got the legal training. He knows how to slow down the court case. Yeah. Okay, how does he die in the end? Does Mox Azuma get his revenge, as the famous idiom would have it? No.

Well, so he dies of, we think, pleurisy, but just before that he has a really bad case of dysentery. Good! LAUGHTER

I mean what a way to go yeah it sounds like a horrible death and you know couldn't have happened to a nice guy truly absolutely shut himself to death I wasn't going to say it Greg because he was a shed and he deserved it um okay so it's a pleurisy is is probably what killed him but uh dysentery probably didn't help uh okay so there you go Jen um Hernan Cortez and Melintzin it's

It's quite the story, isn't it? It is quite the story. It's quite a sad story. It's tragic, really. There's no part of it that isn't... I mean, listen, comedy corner here, but it's pretty hard to find any light in that shade. He is genuinely one of the most unpleasant men in history, I would say. He's a truly awful human being. And I'm glad he shat himself today. LAUGHTER

I hope it came out of both ends for hours. He's a horrible, horrible man. And sure, Melinda, by proxy, you could say, yeah, but, you know, she was no saint either. And that is absolutely true. But the power dynamic there was so, you know, you can't compare the two. You're looking at a young girl who was enslaved and was trying to survive. Yeah.

And she wasn't to know how it was going to turn out, you know, that it was going to end up being some sort of genocidal mania. And then this Cortez guy was just like total narcissist psychopath. Good guy. Good guy. Good guy. The nuance window!

Time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Jen and I machete our way through the jungle for two minutes while Amy tells us something we need to know about Melinsin. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr. Amy. So sadly, after Mexico gained its independence from Spain in 1821, Melinsin's public reputation went downhill.

There was a desire to reclaim the history of the nation from the coloniser and to explain how the conquest happened, but unfortunately this led to her becoming a scapegoat. She's often referred to as the Mexican Eve, a traitor and a whore who betrayed her people despite the fact that she wasn't Aztec, nor did she have much agency of her own.

the hundreds of thousands of indigenous allies do not get blamed. They're presented as being tricked by Cortes into fighting against Moctezuma the tyrant. Yet she is not awarded the same dispensation. We know that the conquest was effectively an indigenous civil war that the Spanish took part in. So Melintzin could even be seen as a freedom fighter, maybe. But instead, she ends up being conflated with the tragic ghost story of La Llorona.

However, as depressing as all that is, let's reflect on how she was viewed by her contemporaries, largely because it's quite annoying for Cortés and his fanboys. So not only did the other conquistadors testify that she was absolutely fundamental to the conquest, so much so that they could not have achieved their victory without her, but the Tlaxcalans in their pictorial sources present her in every scene that Cortés features, even in amongst the fighting, like a real badass.

And sometimes she's even depicted as bigger than him, basically insinuating that she was more important than him. And in fact, because she was always in Cortés' company, the indigenous people they spoke to referred to Cortés as the captain of Marina or Malinche. This not only demonstrates her importance to the native allies, but even better, it effectively demoted Cortés because he was named in terms of his relationship with her allies.

It's really interesting that what you said, though, about her being scapegoated and that the indigenous allies weren't blamed because it was a civil war. Why should she have any? Why would she support the Aztecs? They enslaved her. She couldn't possibly blame her, I don't think. I actually am team Balintzin. I'm sure I didn't turn out great in the long term, but I think she did what she had to do to survive. So what do you know now?

Right, well, time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Jen to see how much she's learned. I was going to say, Jen, are you feeling confident? No, not really. But I'm not sure...

No, I'm not feeling confident at all. There's so much detail. You have taken some fantastic notes. Look at this. Oh, I've missed a page. No, I've taken way too many notes and now I feel completely overwhelmed. Eight pages of notes, listener. Jen's written her own Cortez letter. I have. I have. And most of it, I can't read my own writing, but let's try it. Let's see what we can do. All right, let's have a go. Ten questions.

Question one. Where does the name Melintzin come from? I've already fallen at the first hurdle. Does it come from... What was the Spanish name? Yeah, it's from her Spanish name. Marina. That's right. Plus the honorific suffix of sin at the end. So well done. Question two. On Cuba, why was Hernan Cortes thrown in jail by his boss Velazquez? Because he had...

slept with his fiancée and then ditched her. He had absolutely Catalina. He refused to marry her. Catalina, that's it. And then he was like, oh, right. Question three. What was legally very dodgy about Cortés leading his conquering expedition to the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico? What was... What had Velázquez said to him?

Oh, hang on. Just give me a second. I've got like 600 notes here, so we'll get there. Well, he's promoted... No, hang on. Cortez has gone without him, without his approval. Yeah, he's gone rogue. So he's gone rogue. So he hasn't got Velázquez's permission. That's right. He's on the run, basically. Yes, he's a fugitive. This is the start of his fugitive journey. Yeah, well done. Question four. How did Malintzin and Cortez first meet?

He is... Oh, no, she is one of 20 girls that is given to the conquistadors as a gift from the Aztecs. From the Maya, yeah. Oh, from the Maya. Yeah, well done. Excellent. Question five. The Tlaxcalans were crucial allies in the conquest of Tenochtitlan. Without them, how many Spanish soldiers would Cortes have had? 600. It is 600. Well done, yeah. Question six.

Question six. What happened to Cortez's first wife, Catalina, in 1522? She was strangled to death by her husband. Or died of natural causes and was caught by the neck. Yes, she sneezed. He was worried about her. He caught her by the neck and she died. Ah, what a bastard. Question seven. What was the encomienda system?

Slavery. It was, but technically not slavery. Technically not slavery because you can't enslave Christians. Yes, that's right. But it turns out you can. But they did. Question eight. What was the name of both Cortes' dad and his son with Malintzin? Martin. It was Martin. Question nine. Who was the Aztec emperor based at Tenochtitlan who ultimately died at the hands of Cortes?

Is it Montezuma? It is. Yeah, very good. And this for a perfect ten. How did Cortés die in 1547? He died from pooing out of his bumhole. Or and or pleurisy. He did. Both of those two things. Ten out of ten, Jen Bristow. Oh, come on. Never in doubt. Here we go. The prize is mine. Only consulted the notes once. LAUGHTER

actually did only because I was the next one so I did really well well done Joan thank you and of course thank you Amy as well listener if you're bursting for more Brista check out our episode on Emma of Normandy with all the elf givus for more Mexican history or famous interpreters you can do the Aztecs episode series one the Sacagawea episode or the Colombian exchange episode which is about Columbus and after

that fact and remember if you've enjoyed the podcast please share the show with friends subscribe to your dead to me on bbc sounds and also make sure to switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode

I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the amazing Dr Amy Fuller from Nottingham Trent University. Thank you, Amy. Thanks for having me. It was great fun. And in Comedy Corner, we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thank you, Jen. Oh, what a delight. I've really enjoyed it. And thank you, Amy. I've learned a lot. And to you lovely listeners, join me next time as we translate another overlooked historical story. But for now, I'm off to write a long letter to the King of Spain, blaming someone else for all of my failures. Bye! Bye!

This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Ida Abishar. It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse and our executive editor was James Cook. You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

From BBC Radio 4, this is What Seriously? I'm Dara O'Brien. And I'm Izzy Sutty. And in our new series, we're bringing you short stories and tall tales. What Seriously? is packed with real-life strange but true stories that make you go, What Seriously? and provide you with excellent social ammo to impress your friends. The twist is we don't know how each story unfolds and we'll have to figure it out one fragment at a time with our special guests who each have a mysterious connection to the tale. That's right. I am your spy expert.

really want to bring you back to the real facts of the story because you're making me laugh so much but I feel like I should. We're the only country in the world that eats the animal on our crest and I never know whether to feel terrible or brilliant about that. All these engineers trying desperately to reduce the amount of dust in space and you get Izzy taking up a balloon full of Glacier. Wow. You're welcome. You come up with all the stuff. I know right. It's like I'm reading from a sheet or something but no I haven't.

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