The Harsh Truth About United’s 2024 Transfers | The Midweek Debate
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Hello and welcome to the Manchester is Red podcast. My name is Stephen Ralston. This is an episode of the Midweek Debate and I'm joined as usual by my partner in crime, Tyrone Marshall. Just before we started recording this episode, I caught Ty licking his microphone. So hopefully there's no more of that for this episode. If you hear some noises throughout the next 45 minutes, that's what it might be. Ty, how are you? Clearly hungry. Yeah.

Yeah, starving, mate. Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. I'm good. How are you? Yeah, not bad. My new morning routine's working very well. Your new moaning routine? Morning routine. I thought you were moaning more than usual. Waking up, putting my head in a bowl of water and rubbing some bananas on my face. Have you saw the trend?

No. See, that proves my point. You are too old to understand the meme. It's been all over Twitter in the last few days. Oh, mate. I don't follow members on Twitter these days. What a place. Football. Midweek debate. Let's debate something. It's obviously the international break, so we've had to scratch our heads on what to discuss. And you know the drill by now. We like to focus in on a topic in the first part of the podcast. So,

So we're going to look back at the summer transfer window of 2024. Tired almost 12 months ago that, I mean, it feels like a few weeks ago, to be honest. Time flies when you're having fun. Yeah, absolutely. United spent a lot of money, the back 10 hog. We're going to go through the signings, look at their business, look at who they sold, just give or forth really. Does that sound good? Sounds planned to me, Stephen. It's got a show on the road. If we go through it in chronological order, it was Joshua Xerxe who arrived first, and

Lenny Yoro, Mathias De Ligt, Nasser Mazouari, Manuel Yagate. So they were the five major signings. There was obviously a few of us in the academy. So we'll start off with Xerxe.

I should say all of those signings cost £220 million without including add-ons. It was a lot of money and it was a pivotal moment obviously after the FA Cup. But we'll start with Xerxe. What have your thoughts been this season? Because he had a very difficult start. Well, he scored on the opening day, but after that he had a difficult few months, got hook's.

against Newcastle Old Trafford that was a really embarrassing moment but since then it feels like he's becoming a bit of a cult hero or he has the potential to you're right being sobbed against Newcastle is an embarrassing moment for anyone that's pretty bad

Yeah, I mean, it's funny to think back really to that goal on his debut in Ten Hag and his press conference afterwards talking about how vital it was and how Hoyland had to wait so long and then Xerxe went months and months without scoring. I mean, I don't think, I can't think of a player certainly in modern United history who has had more ups and downs in their first season than Xerxe. This is where we need Samuel because he would probably be able to

to pluck someone who had a comparative ride in their first season. But he wouldn't be able to talk about their XG, would he? That's true. He wouldn't, no. I think he enjoyed that last week. So yeah, you think of like, you know, obviously he was struggling for form, the Newcastle moment, the missed penalty against Fulham. He's had some terrible, terrible moments, but in a way it's kind of made him this, almost like a bit of a cult hero, maybe. There was that desire to kind of defend him,

after what happened against Newcastle and I think recently he's got a lot better I think he's

In a way, he's a better signing for Amram than he was for Tanag, which is a strange thing to say, but he was clearly signed by Tanag to play as a number nine. And that would have been the only role he could have ever played under Tanag. And he's just not a centre forward, is he? He's not a striker. And I think he's looked so much better playing in one of these number 10 roles under Amram. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because I completely agree. His close ball control is just fantastic. I don't think I've seen a player...

in recent years it's almost a throwback to how players used to be and having that tight control weaving in and out it's brilliant in that regard but is he going to be a long-term success in that role because they need someone who can do a little bit more in one of those number 10 positions don't they I mean it's been great to see him kind of excel in that position after struggling at centre forward but long term it doesn't really feel like he can play there all the time

No, you wouldn't. I think there's an argument he could still be a squad player in this team. I think that's certainly a possibility. He's going to be reasonably difficult to shift after one season, although he's a fairly cheap signing. Maybe there'll be some loan interest. And United have got a lot of number 10s. It's an area where they are pretty strong. So you can certainly see a chance of...

of him going there or even being a squad player. I don't think he's a regular starter, but he's certainly, he's certainly showing something there. I mean, at the start of the season, I kind of described him as a, like a, in a way, a poor man, Roberto Firmino. He was that number nine and 10 arc and he just dropped off deeper and deeper and deeper, but it worked with Firmino because he had Salah and Mane scoring 40 goals a season. Xerxes was dropping off, dropping off and looking to wingers who just don't score. Now,

You know, he's almost like, and he's a throwback in his style. There's a bit of Berbatov in there, that kind of languidness. And you can imagine it could frustrate at times because he does kind of stroll around the pitch. It's that like insocquence really that... He definitely works harder than Berbatov, I think. But I get your point. He does have a very similar style. Yeah, he does have a similar style. And it's very like languid on the ball, which when you lose it can probably end up as...

a bit of criticism but he's you know he's an interesting player i think he's been good to watch at times in that number 10 role like you say there the tricks and flicks and little nutmegs are great to see long term i'm not convinced he's got a huge future well if you forget that he was meant to be signed as a goal scorer then he's been an all right singing but he was signed to be a striker obviously that hasn't worked out um and you have to judge you know judge him on where he's playing now and it's difficult to grade him is he a c plus

We're not doing grades, actually. I'm just going to give one to Xerxes. But do you know what I mean? It is quite difficult to assess him in that sense. Yeah, well, it is. It is because, like you say, he's not really doing what he signed for. But then, you know, the only reason United signed him is because he had a release clause. Let's be honest. You know, if...

That is the only reason. Which they paid more than. Which they paid more than, so they could spread it over three years. Yeah, and rival supporters have kind of saw a lot of that on social media, taking the mick out of Dan Ashworth when he left and saying, well, he paid more than Xerxes' release clause. He did that because it was beneficial to United. Well, in theory, it's beneficial to United. I mean, it just kicks the can down the road. You know, United sign all their players on Klarner these days, don't they? Just like you with all your clothes. Stephen, where's that from? Right, okay, I'll buy that. You know, it kicks the can down the road for them.

as we've seen Ratcliffe say this summer about what they're going to spend. So yeah, you can see why it was done. But the only reason they ever went for him in the first place was because he was cheap and available. I don't think he was ever...

the man that they needed just like I don't think Hoyland was the man they needed the year before that but you know that's a different debate which we've already done about three times I think so I will give him his dues he has showed pretty impressive character I think after that Newcastle moment a lot of players would have sulked and it might have ruined their season and ruined the chances of kind of

show them what they can do but that Anfield game I thought was the pivotal moment because the fans sung his name rallied behind him and he would have really appreciated that and since then he's improved so that's been nice to see moving on then to Lenny Oro we were up at Murrayfield in Scotland tie in the Salah you drove up do you remember what a trip fantastic just like this podcast only for four hours yeah so if you don't like the podcast you can imagine what that car journey was like and

But he's arrived from Lille, big money signing and he arrived with a big reputation. That first game I kind of joked on that he would be a future Ballon d'Or winner. I think he played one of the balls, it was a kind of cross field switch, I think it was around 50 yards. Looking back, I was speaking to Ida about this the other day, that performance was overplayed, but in pre-season you are looking for something to write about. And everyone was buzzing about Jorah that day. Obviously suffered an injury and we didn't see him until a bit later on. He

He took a little bit of time to adapt. We're starting to see a lot more promising signs, I think. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I don't think he's had a great season. I don't think anyone can really suggest he's had a great season. There've been injuries, there've been difficult games. You come back to that Southampton game at Old Trafford when Suleiman, or I think it was, you know, absolutely ran him ragged. There's been better games as well, but he is still...

very young you know he's still I think he's still only 18 19 19 now you know so there's a lot of potential to come and he needs a run of games he should you know he should fit this system playing three centre-backs should open up more opportunity for him to play more games I think he's assigning you've got a judge further down the road there's clearly a lot of potential there

He's gone into a team, you know, he went into a team that was struggling as well, a team that's changed manager, probably never experienced anything like this in his career. How important is that, I think, is context. When you're 18, about to turn 19, you move to a new club, different language, you're in a struggling side, they've had to change your manager. When you kind of think about all the context, it's really hard to show your best form and to give the best version of yourself, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. You know, it's a massive, massive thing when you make that step and you sign for the club and,

kind of I was gonna say unexpectedly I mean it sounds you know it's probably more unexpected to us than it was to him it's fair to say I don't think they kidnapped him into points of Carrington but you know I think it was still it you know let's be honest he was expecting to sign for Real Madrid for most of the last season I think and in the end that didn't happen and then you sign for Ten Hag and then another manager comes in with different ideas and then you're injured so it's you know there's metagame factors there it's been a difficult season for him and

I can't say loads of games are springing to the top of my mind now where you think, hey, look, the real deal. But I think they will in time. I think if he has a full pre-season under Amarim, if he stays fit, I think we'll see more of him. And, you know, certainly I'm certainly not writing him off. I still think, you know, I thought at the time United struck a very good deal. And I still think United have got a very good deal there.

They were aggressive with it. They blew Real Madrid out of the water financially and they got the player they wanted and there's clearly an excellent player in there. There's clearly a world-class, potentially world-class player in there given the teams that wanted him.

Let's not forget Liverpool wanted him this summer as well. United acted quickly to get him ahead of Liverpool. They were aggressive in beating Real to his signature. So there's a real player there. I think we've seen bits of it this season, just not on a consistent basis. Glimmers is the word, isn't it? Yeah. Glimmers, really. If you went to Real Madrid...

they have this kind of policy or approach where if they're signing a young player, they'll bet them in slowly and gradually. They'll have senior players ahead of them who are very good and they'll get one or two, obviously more than one or two appearances, but they'll slowly be developed into the side.

It's different at United, isn't it? Because he's been thrown into the cauldron a bit faster. He's starting a lot more games now. I think if he went to Madrid, it would have been more of a gradual process is what I'm trying to say. And I think as a player, would you want that or would you want to start lots of games? I think as a player, you'd want to be starting games. But what's actually best for your development long term

you know what I'm trying to say well I think in the circumstances he'd have probably started as many games at Real than he has at United given that they've been playing midfielders at centre-back for a lot of the season injuries have kind of opened up gaps you know United have a lot of centre-backs albeit of fairly mixed level but yeah he's

Look at Varane, for example, when he signed for Real Madrid, he wasn't thrown into that starting side straight away. He was kind of gradually bedded in and that really helped him develop and become the player that he was. Yeah, it's hard to know, isn't it, what's best for a player because having a season like this

it can be good for your development, but there's no, no hard and fast rule that says it is good for your development. It could, it could have knocked his confidence. It could have knocked a big year out of him. Developmental development, development in terms of development. So what happens when you lick the microphone, you get distracted when you're looking at it. It's not a snack tie. It's not a snack. Stop losing your mind. We've still not got the midweek pint going, have we? Um, yeah, so I don't, you know, there's no, I don't think there's any hard and fast rule that it's better one way or the other, particularly, um,

I think we'll see more of him next season. I think we'll be able to judge more next season. I still think he'll come good. There's clearly a good player there, but he probably does have a slightly different development plan at United compared to Real Madrid, but it's certainly not worked out smoothly. I'm sure what he was told at the summer isn't what has panned out. And it was the first signing really...

that felt like a true Ineos signing, wasn't it? It was the mark of their time in charge of the club. And you look at Joshua Xerxe, Dutch player, Tanag, we're about to come on to Deleuze and Maswari.

Maswari played under Tanahag, so did De Ligt. So Tanahag's fingerprints were all over that summer window to an extent. And Joroh was that kind of Ineos signing. Young, has a high ceiling, comes with a lot of potential. And fair play, because he didn't come that cheap. He probably will be value in a few years' time. But yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see how he develops in the next few years. Moving on then to De Ligt and Maswari.

I don't know which one to start with. We'll start off with Dele, I suppose. A lot was made of him really because he had a bad time of things at, bad time? Bayern Munich, Juventus. He has regressed since his Ajax days where he was tipped to become one of the world's best defenders.

We just kind of briefly touched on Dilip before we recorded. I think he's just been fine for me. I said that the other episode. I think he's been all right. I don't think he's been tremendous. I don't think he's been bad. I just think he's been all right. You probably tip him more into the favor of he's been good. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so.

can I say like a stake medium to rare can I say find it good he has been very good in the last few weeks I will say there's been some very good performances the game against Fulham was his best display I've fought yet for United he just battled and battled didn't he and that challenge where he busted along to get across to the side what a fantastic tackle that was

So it's been better recently. But at the start of the season, I think it was a bit unconvincing. What's your opinion? I've just kind of give it away, but... Yeah, I would roughly go along with that. Like you, it was unconvincing at the start of the season. It was, I think...

It was a funny signing because he's still a name that for supporters who want to see transfers, which a lot of them do these days, they decide how a season's going to go based on transfers. He was a name. And you sign someone like Matis De Ligt and it's like, what signing? But the fact is that Juventus sold him at a loss. Bayern Munich sold him at a loss. That wouldn't be happening. And I don't think he was terrible for either club, but...

Those two clubs wouldn't be selling him at a loss if he had been, if he had lived up to the standards they may be expected. And then United sign him kind of purely on this idea of a reunion with Ten Hag, which then gets inevitably blown up within a couple of months. I don't think that was a surprise to anyone that that happened. So a bit of a funny sign-in, but I think he's got better under Amrim than he was under Ten Hag, I think. He had that funny period at the start of the season where he...

I mean, it's concerning to me for his level that you look in the summer, he didn't get a minute of football in the Euros. And that would be a worry, I think, looking at that. And then he does eventually get called up and plays when someone got injured. I can't remember who it was. It was the Lazio defender, I think, De Vries, wasn't it?

And he had a nightmare in that. It was the September international break, I think it was. There was a lot of shades of Harry Maguire in that episode, wasn't it? Where he kind of got embarrassed by his national team manager. He was kind of a bit of a joke figure and it looked like he had the weight of the world on his shoulders really at that time. Yeah, I think that was clearly a difficult period for him. Um, Ten Hag was very defensive of him at that point. And I don't, I don't think there's been many games, I can't think of many where you look at him and you think he's been disastrous or he's had a nightmare. Um,

I don't think he was brilliant at the start of the season. I think he's got a lot better. And I still think this could be, I think they paid 38 and a half million for him. You know, that, for a player who clearly still has a lot of potential, that's a good deal. And maybe he's never going to be the player that we all thought he was five years ago, six years ago now when he was 19 at Ajax. But I still think he can play a really good role in this back three under Amarim. He's an aggressive defender. I think he's good on the ball.

I still think it's got the potential to be a really good signing. And I think this year it's been, for 38 million, I think it's been pretty good, I would say. Yeah, that's what I mean. I think it's been fighting it good. I mean, 38 million, it's hard to get value in this market for that fee. And he's probably done what his price tag has kind of suggested he would really, what you'd expect from a player for that much money.

someone who hasn't done what you'd expect for a fee of that much is Masraoui. Because if you sign for 12.8 million, what a fantastic player. He's kind of not been getting the appreciation in the last few weeks, maybe last month and a half. And there's been a few drop-offs, I think, in some of his performances. But for the majority of the campaign, he has been brilliant, I think. Technically superb, a very good technical player. He can play anywhere. I think he's played in six positions. Yeah.

So he's just so versatile. Number 10 is his best for me. I mean, so bizarre that he was played in that role, wasn't it? To be fair, Tanag was just asking to be sacked at stages with some of the decisions he was making. But yeah, when we're talking about getting value in the market, Maswari has been superb value. Yeah, he has. He has been, you know, he has been great value. There's no doubt about that. Been a really good signing. I mean, the funny thing is that

Certainly under Ten Hag, I think there was this massive appreciation of what a good signing he was building. The fans were loving him at that point. Then Amarim comes in and Amarim talked about him so positively and so effusively. Yeah, we did a classic international break thing last week of picking what we think is Amarim's strongest team between now and the end of the season. And I think three of us did it and not one of us had Masraoui in the starting line-up.

which is quite interesting I think well is that not because you started to play at right centre back quite

Quite a lot. Well, I think... I mean, I don't think he's a wing-back, to be honest. I don't think he's got any future as a wing-back. I think he's best as one of those two centre-backs at the side, whether it's right or left. You know, right would be better for me. But again, I don't think he's in the strongest group for there. So I think going forward, I think he's an excellent squad player. I think he could play wing-back in...

an emergency an injury crisis you know I think he's one of those the type of player who was your fourth or fifth choice centre back and your second or third choice wing back is really worth having in the squad you'd have him in there rotationally and he's probably always going to be fit as well yeah he seems to you know the exception of the heart palpitation which I mean he couldn't control that no he couldn't control that he came back very quickly from that as well so

So, yeah, I think he's a really good squad player. I think his attitude, his commitment and his attitude has been brilliant and has really added something to this squad. But I thought it was interesting that none of us had him in our strongest team. And, you know, looking at it now, you'd have, I mean, Martinez, Maguire,

De Ligt probably the strongest back three for me at the moment then you'd have Yoro really close then Mazraoui and Heaven we were going off players who were available weren't we so Martinez wasn't available we still didn't have Mazraoui in there yeah that's true it's a good point and again now you've got Dorger who was the left wing back I still think they need a right wing back but I'd rather have Dallo playing there than Mazraoui so I think he's you know I think he'll be a really good squad player next year

it like you said the kind of fanfare around him has died down a little now but i still think he's been for that kind of money he's been a great side yeah that's what i mean the last few weeks it has settled down a bit but there was a spell maybe from september november time through to january where everyone was raving about him and rightly so he deserved it it's interesting when you look at that transfer window because a lot was made of it at the time the club said they were very happy with the deals that they did a few weeks into the season we're scratching our heads thinking hang on a

Obviously, I've not mentioned Manuel Ugarte, so we'll talk about him before kind of assessing the business as a whole. I forgot about him there. Yeah, I did. I thought I could play it down actually. We cut this bit. I didn't get away with it. I would have got away if it wasn't for you and the meddling kids. No, I spotted. Yeah, so Ugarte on deadline day, 42 million for initial fee. I think another 8 million after that.

from PSG United insisted he was their main target all summer and that their bargaining tactics kind of got them prices that they wanted again he was another who made a mixed start it took him a while to settle I think he was struggling with the intensity of the Premier League in my opinion didn't look up to that level to begin with but there were some promising performances against low opposition wasn't it if you think back to the Carabao was against Barnsley in the Cup dominated Barnsley as you'd expect yeah

bloody Barnsley was it 7-0 wasn't it it was 7-0 yeah it's the game you would expect them to dominate and against Leicester in the cup as well so there was clearly signs of promise there but he's really found his feet I think into the winter and

and he's benefited from this partnership with Fernandes actually in the pivot Samuel Taz's office in the pivot it's a very hipster term but yeah them two have complemented each other really nicely and they've become good files for each other I think and we've started to see the best out of you guys in the last two

Two months or so, three months. Yeah, we have. And like you say, he was a big target in the summer, but he wasn't Ten Hag's top target for that role. And I think he's got, I think he's better suited to this system. I mean, A, he's played it before under Ramarim at Sporting, but also it can kind of hide that one weakness, which is in possession. You know, it's not to say he's disastrous in possession. He's played some really nice passes this year. But I think as a midfield player, that is the one area you'd say he's not,

He doesn't excel at it. He's not always brilliant at the ball, on the ball rather. I think he's solid enough. But if you were playing him, if you were playing a, if you played something like City or Liverpool do, where you're kind of playing 4-3-3, but you're playing one sitter and then two number eights, I think you'd have concern about, you wouldn't have any concern about his defensive work, but in terms of how he progresses the ball,

I think you'd maybe have concerns. But in this system, where he can play next to Fernandes, and, you know, I think they've been a really good partnership. I do think they complement each other really well. Having said that, and I agree, is that partnership going to be the starting partnership in those positions next season? Is that good enough to... Is that Fernandes' long-term role next to Higari? Or do you need an even more mobile number? I mean, Fernandes is the ultimate player, really, but did not need him a bit more further forward on the pitch? Well, I would...

That's not me seeing that it should be. It's just an interesting question. Well, I think the problem with moving Fernandes further forward is that Fernandes and Ahmad then become your tens. And you've then got Garnaccio, Mainu, Mason Mount, Ericsson, Xerxe. And you say Ericsson's going to go. But I think they, I mean, to be honest, people like to hear it. If that's the case, you sell Kobi Mainu. You have to sell Kobi Mainu. And I don't, you know, I don't think anyone wants that to happen.

you're kind of at that position where I think Ahmad's long-term future lies as a number 10 rather than a right wing back. I think he'll play both, but I think he'll be more of a 10. And then I think you need that space next to him to play one of Mainu and Garnaccio. I think those three as 10s with someone else in there is promising. I think you need another option,

because at the moment, I think, you know, I think he's... Casemiro's the backup option. Yeah, Casemiro's the backup option. And I think Amarim's made it very clear that he ain't going to play Meynou defensively. No, not after the first few weeks. Casemiro's been better, hasn't he? But he needs to go, doesn't he? He has been better. I still think, you know, I think the Europa League suits him. Yeah, especially against Spanish opposition. Yeah, it's just a slightly slower tempo, slightly less intensity. I can see him being a Europa League specialist between now and the end of the season. Yeah.

But I do think you need someone else there. But, you know, I would have no qualms about playing Fernandes in that deeper role alongside Ugarte, to be honest. I think the bigger issue is who you play at number 10 and where you go from there. It's a different debate. And I know it's one the guys touched on on Monday, but I still think there's a chance one of Garnaccio and Mainu go just because I don't see them both starting as number 10s, to be honest. And I can see a scenario where neither start as number 10s. And at that point, there's probably no natural roles for them at the moment.

So if we wrap it up there with that window, I mean, like I said, I tried to say it before forgetting you got it. Everyone was kind of scratching their heads in the first few weeks because we thought it was crap, wasn't it? It started to look better with more time out, I believe. Do you agree with that? We went through the players there and we have given a lot of praise. I don't think we've been

We've not really been negative on any of them really have. We've not really said that is an awful signing. And if you look back to, got it up, I did have it up to 2022 or 2023. So yeah, Anthony, Casemiro, Christian Eriksen, Malasia Martinez. So Martinez, good signing. Christian Eriksen, good signing. But Anthony and Casemiro for a few years.

for what's that combined fee of 165 yeah around that I mean it was terrible business wasn't it and then you fast forward to 2023 Andre Nana Mason Mount Rasmus Highland

They overpaid for Rasmus Haaland and Mason Mount for all I think he'll be a success now he's in our room system. The facts are he's not played much football and he's been injured a lot. Yeah. And it's not really looked like a good signing right now. Yeah. I mean that 2023 summer, those are the three big signings. There's question marks over all of them for different reasons right now. You couldn't, you couldn't look at any of them right now and say that's been a successful signing. 2022, I mean with three years on from that and four of those five players are probably going to go in the summer. Yeah.

You know, I think that was a disastrous window in hindsight. And it is worth saying that a lot of this is in hindsight. That's maybe the risk we're taking now. If we'd have judged that 2022 window at the end of March 2023...

we'd have probably said it was really good. Well, everyone except Anthony, wasn't there? Even then, I don't think the Anthony... It was okay. He had it okay for a season, but it wasn't good enough. No, but I think... For the money they paid, his first season wasn't good. I still think in May 2023, in March 2023, we'd have said there's enough mitigating factors to say...

he's had an okay season and he'll get better. But that's because you give the players the benefit of the doubt, especially their first season. I always like to think, give them a year and then really kind of form a solid opinion in the second year. We'd have all said at that point that Casemiro was one of the best recent signers in United history. Of course he was, yeah. But being a good sign-in isn't about one season, it's about a couple of seasons. Which is the risk of us...

doing this podcast now. Like, you know, maybe in two years' time we'll have to go back and delete this episode. They'll pretend they never asked themselves. But generally, I think if the three summers that Ten Hag had, it probably does look the best at the moment. You know, I think...

It gets a lot of criticism, I think, because of the sheer madness of wanting to sack the manager, then thinking, okay, we won't sack him, but then giving him 200 million to spend. And to spend on... They were very clearly his players. Well, as Ratcliffe said on the overlap, that's why there's a lot of Dutch players. They gave him the money and then let him do what he wants with it again. So damning for Ratcliffe and his team in...

gaining control of football operations saying we're going to do things differently hiring people who are going to do things and then doing basically everything the same unbelievable that isn't it yeah it is it is I mean not I don't think it's massively surprising that that's that's what happens to be honest

There were some other arrivals. A deal agreed for Sekou Kone, who came from a Mali in club for around £1 million. There was recently a deal agreed for Diego Leon, who's going to arrive next summer. But again, those are kind of very Ineos feeling signings, aren't they? Where we're seeing these young lads come in from around the world to a wider scouting network.

uh coming into the academy initially kind of getting their fitness up getting used to kind of england the demands of football at carrington and then i guess potentially they will be flipped long term be interesting to see if cornea makes a string of first-team appearances from what i've seen him

at under 21 level, he is incredibly raw. He's very green. I mean, sorry, we were both at the Huddersfield game, weren't we? When he made his first start for the club. Malasia was obviously returning back that night and he was just so green. Very green. Yeah. And, you know, he's come from a club... The other side of the world. The other side of the world, basically, where everything will be so different to this. Even the professionalism of things like

The fitness regime and the weights regime and the nutrition and how you live your life and what you do away from the pitch will be so different at a club in Mali to a club at United. And, you know, that's for financial reasons as much as reasons of geography and culture and things like that. It'll be a massive settling in period. And I don't think it's a surprise that maybe it's going to take him time to do that. You know, there's two sides you mentioned. I think they are probably in EOS deals. There are also deals that have got

Christopher Vell's fingerprints all over you look at the Red Bull network of clubs that he was heavily involved obviously now permanently director of recruitment at United that was something that they did a lot signing players kind of from well off the beaten track in a way they could bring those players into the first team it's different at United for all Nicky Butt said this the other night when I spoke to him it's different

It's different at a club like Brentford or Brighton where you can sign these kind of talents, young talents and get them in the first team. United need results now and they need proven quality, don't they? The difference is, could you not, Chelsea have done this recently under Todd Borley and Claire Lake where they've signed these players and flipped them before even, they don't even play for the first team. No, but I mean, yeah, maybe Chelsea, I can't think of any,

I mean, the club that does it the best recently is City, probably. And Liverpool have done it a bit. And United used to do it. And the reason that happened was because clubs would sign players. Clubs now will sign players from a City academy because they've been close to it. They've been close to Pep Guardiola. They've smelt it. They've been brought up the right way. They've done training the right way. Oh, he's been at City's academy. He's played loads for the 21s. He's obviously a player. No one's looking at United at the moment and thinking, oh, he's been around Eric Ten Hag. He's been in the Ineos system.

They're not going to sign players on that. The only way United flip players at the moment is by playing them. And that's clearly a problem. It's kind of why I always think that Virgil van Dijk's the classic example of this in a way that people always say now, like, wow, why did no one sign him? Why did none of the big clubs sign him from Utrecht or even sign him from Celtic? But big clubs, they don't need to take that risk because fundamentally that's still what it was at the time because he paid for...

you know, one mid-table Dutch club and then he'd done well for Celtic where he barely has to defend and it's easier for Southampton to take that risk. You could say, oh, why didn't United or Liverpool sign him straight from Celtic? He wouldn't have gotten the team. That's the reality of it. Yeah, that's the model and that's why I kind of, without being disrespectful, quote unquote, smaller Premier League clubs kind of benefit from this because they can afford, they have to take that risk, don't they? And these bigger clubs can't. Yeah, it's why Brighton can sign these players and, yeah,

they can play them and then they can sell them for a fortune. You look at, I mean, Casado's a classic example. United wanted him as well. I guarantee you, if United got him, he wouldn't be the player he is now. It's four million and the agent things were still unblocked. Yeah. And then, you know, there was a, I was watching a Brighton game the other night and they said, oh, Diego Gomez is playing in midfield. Yeah.

I think that's his name anyway. Who is Diego Gomez and who is he going to for 50 million in two years? That's why I love watching Brighton though because I mean we're football journalists we've got a very good knowledge of football and you watch Brighton and you're like who's this lad from South America and you watch him and he's brilliant. Well that's it and then you're like who's signing him for 50 million in two years but it's the case that you know Kone and Leon are good examples and maybe Leon will be different but

United can't play them in the first team they're not at that level so it's difficult for United to do what it's an easy thing to say oh they should do what Brighton do and do what Brentford do but they can't because they don't exist to live in mid-table in the Premier League they exist to win titles so what they can do is send those players on which Chelsea have done with a lot of their players for example look at Minta who's now at Brighton joined Newcastle never played a game for them when a lot of fire was flipped for 40 million you're seeing more Premier League clubs do this and

Perhaps Kornie needs a loan. I can't see him breaking into the first team in the next.

No, I can't. I can't. But again, I don't know how much money you're going to make from that. I mean, yeah, I guess Mint is a good example. I don't really know his background of how much Newcastle paid for him or where they got him from or anything. From Scandinavia, I'm pretty sure. So he was pretty cheap. But if you can send a player out on loan and they have a storming season, for example, there's a lot of upside to them. Yeah, I guess James Garner is probably the best example at United. But I just think it's a much harder thing to do

for a club because the best the best way to sell players like that is to expose them to first team football but you know it just can't do that because their aims it's not just united it's the case for all of the top six their aims are different their aims are to challenge for titles and united aren't going to start next season by having diego leon in the first team whereas maybe at brighton they'll think well he can you know if he's not starting he can be esther pinnean's backup he can play in cup games and stuff even at united you

probably not going to get that exposure so it's harder to make it make it work but you know I guess as long as some of those deals work then it'll pay off

We'll quickly touch on some departures. We went on for a bit there on the incomings and kind of that kind of business. It was 14 departures. Can you name them all? Absolutely no chance. Alvaro Fernandez, Will Fish, Omari Forsen, Mason Greenwood. Remember him? How's Will Fish getting on? I texted him the other day, actually. Hannibal, Charlie McNeil, Maxio Udeli. He didn't reply. Fecundo Prilestri, Willy Kamwala, Shola Shoratiri, Donny van der Beek, Rafa Varane.

I remember Scott McTominay sure Tyria was never supposed to be interviewing also didn't reply. Is Will Fish playing many games? He has so at the start of the season bit of context to the listeners me and Ty and Rich had a discussion in the car going up to that game in Lyon actually about Will Fish because I was adamant he would go to a championship club he did he was highly regarded he won the season awards a few times in the academy for a defender it was very impressive but

had a fantastic loan at Hibernian joined Cardiff in the summer on a permanent but yeah he's playing now and that's coincided with them improving results so fair play I looked into it the other day it was a good move for him definitely a good move for him but on that list I think one that stands out to me because we're not going to talk about them all it's Amari Fawcett time because we discussed it the other podcast didn't we he played over Ahmad against Newport in that FA Cup game in January 2024 now it was a league game I think

Well, there was that league game as well when he started. When he started, yeah, he started that. But he came on from the bench against Newport and I remember Ahmad posting something on social media and he basically lost his head and he replied to a Sunland fan saying, yeah, I'll be back. But Ahmad was well within his rights to be frustrated. When you look now, you don't really want to criticise a young player. It's not criticism, but the fact is, Fawcett hasn't had a kick for Monza in the bottom of Syria. They're getting relegated. Look at what Ahmad's doing. Tanagh lost his mind with that one, didn't he?

Yeah, I mean, I think he only played those games as a kind of sweetener to say, look, sign a contract, you will get chances. And he saw through it and probably for United's benefit that he saw through it. You know, it does show you that being a good player in the academy or looking good at academy level means absolutely nothing at times when it comes to first team footballing.

He's probably an example of that last season. I mean, on that list, the other one who stands out is Alvaro Fernandes, joined Benfica on a permanent transfer. United have got the buyback option until the summer of 2026, so a year's time. There's a lot of talk of that in the general window because some fans were kind of saying, well, trigger the bloody thing. I think it's worth around £16 million and they needed a left-back.

What do you think? You watched any of them? I watched them in the... I've only watched them once at Benfica against Atletico Madrid in the Champions League. It was good, very, very good to be fair. I can't say I've watched them every week. No, I can't say I've watched them every week. I don't think... I mean, they play it back four, don't they? I don't think he's got huge experience as a wing-back. I think Dorg, who's clearly more of a specialist than Fernandes is. But he's clearly done very well. I mean, there's talk of Real Madrid being interested, I think, this summer, isn't there? In going back to Madrid. Back to where he was, yeah. So he's clearly done well.

very very well i think it always surprised me that he didn't get more chances at united given how bad the left back situation has been there certainly when they were playing a back four under um under ten hag so yeah i was surprised didn't get more chances and even the fee they sold him for i guess in hindsight they could maybe you got a bit more but i think there's a decent sell on there i think if real madrid do come for him this summer then

they're gonna they're gonna profit more and that's that's the kind of deal that they've done a lot more of recently and that they need to do more of in terms of selling until Tanar come in I think they kept too many young players I think that's one thing that he did change you saw it with Garner in that first summer that when you get to the age of 20 21 if you're not good enough for the first team then you need to be sold there's no point keeping them on for another year

yeah and last summer was probably the first time that we saw a lot of clauses inserted into the deals and maybe that was in eos's influence as well clearly that salons and stuff like that included and it just makes just no brainer isn't it to include salons and players and especially in the psr world where you get a little bit of kickback down the line it's going to help the books yeah i think city made something like 30 million from salon clauses in the summer um again they are the the kings of it really um

And yeah, I think it does just show, I mean, they'll probably, City will probably pocket a tidy sum from Liam De Lappe this summer as well. Well, if it was up to you, United would sign him for a hundred million, I think. Well, yeah, I think a hundred million slightly. I'm not sure you were listening intently last week or whatever it was, but yeah, you know, if it was up to me, then I'd certainly be having a look at him. Not like a journalist to twist someone's words. Very unusual, very unusual. Shows your standards, Stephen. Yeah.

But yeah, I think, you know, sell on clauses. It is something United have become more proactive at. And I think it's something we've always criticised them for selling players and their inability to sell players. And, you know, I think they're getting better at it with the clauses. It's not, to be fair, I don't think it's an easy thing to do at United. There's only two reasons why Manchester United are going to sell a player. And that's because the player has outgrown them and wants to go further.

and macro is probably the wrong word but a player the player has reached a world-class level and wants to go like ronaldo the other reason is that they've not lived up to standards and therefore they are a hard sell so i think you know it's it's difficult to get the timing's right to sell players at united you look at the players they've been trying to sell recently and they're selling them because they've not played very well and it's not it's not easy to say to a club

do you want to sign this guy who's been rubbish for us for two years but you know it is still an area they have to improve and I think with the youth players you're seeing that Anthony pack your bags lads yeah that's it yeah here's a DVD of Anthony's best moments at Manchester United and just edit that bit out just show them real better so you think bloody hell what a player we've waffled on for far too long for the first part so we'll leave it there for part one back in a moment for part two you don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries

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♪♪

Welcome back to part two of the midweek debate. As usual, we're just going to have a relaxed chit chat in this part. And I'm conscious that the first part was probably longer than it should have been. Which is good because we've got nothing to talk about. See you next week. We did quite well. Ahmad posted an injury update, I think yesterday. On Snapchat? Yeah, I don't know who still uses Snapchat. Oh no, come on Ahmad, I hope you're getting it. I agree. Do you speak the language of emojis?

Well, I can work out what a sand timer means. I'm not that old. The language of emojis is a minefield these days, isn't it? But yeah, I think I've got the meaning of a sand timer. Well, it was a sand timer and a smiley face, which I'm reliably told that it should be an encouraging update, apparently. Ruben Amram suggested he'd be out for the season, didn't he? When he first discussed Ahmad's ankle injury.

Which I thought was interesting because at the time when the club released their update, they didn't say that. They said for a number of weeks. That was the exact terminology they used. So I did think to myself, is Amrou made a mistake there? He's then corrected himself or I should say provided a fresh update after the 1-1 draw against Soshidad and he said, look, Ahmad could be back before the end of the season.

This would be fantastic if he could be back. Realistically, there's no point in rushing him back for the Premier League season because that's a write-off. But the semi-finals of the Europa League are played in the first week of May. So the first of May and then seven days later. It'd be superb to have him back for then, wouldn't it? Yeah, massively. I think it'd be a real uplift there. And I think it comes at a time when...

hopefully the last two weeks, few weeks haven't been a false dawn and it feels like the attack is clicking without him. You add him in and I think it's another real attacking weapon. If United do go on to reach the semi-finals of the Europa League and the final, then I think having him back would be huge and it does seem pretty positive now that he is going to be

back in contention and back playing before the end of the season, which is massive. Is it, am I exaggerating to say, I just put this in a piece today, that he would have been the favourite for the Player of the Year award before his injury? Because Fernandes had been good. Andre Anana for me. Player of the Year. Yeah.

it's a bit of an inside joke if you've been listening to most of the podcasts with Fernanda he'd been really really good obviously scored the match winner against Manchester City scored against Liverpool hat-trick against Southampton and Fernanda's had been good but he hadn't been fantastic another

In the last few weeks since Ahmad's been on the sidelines, Fernandes has really stepped up. He's got to be favourite now. He's almost assuming his need to win it for a third time. But that just shows you how good Ahmad was. And he has been such a bright spark in such a miserable season. Yeah, definitely. I think he would have been favourite. I mean, the Inanna joke was for your player of 2024. I'm getting accused for this. So context again is key, Typh.

The MEN and the companies, the MEN, Liverpool Echo, for example, across the nation, they were running a calendar year competition. So each outlet had to nominate a player for that calendar year. Our desk, I say that because it was a team effort, settled on Andrew Inanna.

As a calendar year for 2024. I'll be honest, it was news to me when I was told we'd settled on Inanna to the point that I wrote a piece pushing Ahmad's claims. Let's get back into it. At that point, it was before... I don't remember, I'm pretty sure it was at the start of November this was put up, right? Yeah. Ahmad hadn't been that good then. He was all right. And it was between Ahmad Dallow and Inanna. I don't know.

He was very good at the end of last season. I think he started this season pretty well. Yeah, but he was only in the team for a few weeks. I was pushing Amad's claims and you were pushing Inan's claims and I think hindsight has proven that one of us knows the game and one of us doesn't. The genius was listened to, obviously. The correct opinion was heeded. Let's not talk about that anymore. Never mention it again. But yeah, you know, in terms of player of the season, he would, I think he would have been the favourite at the point he got injured. What Fernandes has done recently with Amad being out, I think has changed it and

You've got to say it's a formality that Fernandes wins it. But even with the injury, I think I'm the only other candidate for me. Did you watch England on Monday night last night and losing track of my days? I watched most of it. I mean, it was... It's just pretty dull again, wasn't it? Well, I will say, I don't know what people expect of international football. This is what I used to say with Gary Southgate. International football isn't going to be the most exciting every single game. You just have to realise that. I mean, I thought they were... To be honest, I thought they were better with Southgate under qualifiers. I mean, the tree set is going to be in a World Cup, but...

You know, they used to win qualifiers very easily under Southgate. They made really hard work of both of them, I thought. And I didn't really see it. There was better pressing at times, but I didn't see any of what Tuchel wanted about, let's bring the Premier League style to international football. It was a moment when Rashford burst on the left, half-tucked someone and just hit it off and went out for a corner. And I thought, I've watched that so often in the last two years, 80 months, I said that to my mate. It does feel like, we just got into Rashford recently, but...

Has his improvement or his resurgence been slightly overplayed, do you think? Well, yeah. I mean, he's still not scored, has he? I think he needs a goal pretty desperately. You know, I did a piece the other day that I think what's going to happen in the summer is interesting with him. Filler obviously got the option. You know, it's no secret that he wants to go to Barcelona. I think...

What he's done this far is promising, but let's face it, in terms of a summer transfer, he's going to be judged on two games and that's the two PSG games, unless they go through when he's going to be judged on four games. But that's where clubs make judgments on elite footballers. It's not what he does against Cardiff in the FA Cup. It's what he's going to do against PSG over two legs. Knowing him, he'll turn up for those ones.

and it's against a club who have had a long-standing interest in him which is a lot of motivation just looking at all against the club he has flirted with relentlessly looking at that fixture building up and thinking about all the factors it does scream Marcus Rashford as a storm I think yeah probably I mean he's been in and out of the Villa team and I think you look at their two January signings if they were only keeping one they'd keep Asensio I think he'd been absolutely brilliant and then Morgan Rogers probably making more of an impact than Rashford

So it kind of does only leave one place in that three behind Watkins. Well, do you think back to Jadon Sancho last season on loan at Borussia Dortmund and his performances continued to be pretty underwhelming, but he had that game against PSG when he was fantastic. It was against Nuno Mendes, to be fair, who was absolutely awful. I don't think much of him, but yeah. He was really good against Salah though, every two games the other week. Salah's rubbish. Yeah, famously.

And so, yeah, we discussed Sancho briefly then before ending the podcast, Ty. I mean, there's been a suggestion that his loan obligation with Chelsea could be broken for around £5 million. That would be hugely embarrassing for the player, wouldn't it? I mean, that is a real low. And I wrote a piece saying it's a sad situation. And someone said, are you a journalist or a fan? And I still think you can see a situation as sad objectively and just stand back and look at it. It sounds like something a hipster would say. I used to really enjoy watching them play.

used to tune in the Bundesliga watch him play obviously the team with Haaland and Bellingham it was really enjoyable and he's just the last few years look he's got no one but himself to blame but his career has just regressed so much yeah I mean he was great against mediocre defences maybe that's what he needs he'd be brilliant in the championship you know he's been maybe you can say it's sad but he's got no one else to blame for himself I think he's been found out that he's not good enough for this level that's just the reality of it

Yes, it's sad, but he's not worked hard enough. I think he probably is good enough for the level, but yeah, that's right. He's not worked hard enough. He's not made the most of it. I'm not sure he is. In terms of what you expect from modern wingers, I don't think he's at that level of an elite club, to be honest. And I think the Bundesliga suits him because half the time you're coming up against teams... This is the thing with these leagues that...

At the top end, when you're playing, say City, Bayern Munich or Liverpool or United against Borussia Dortmund, they're close games. Even if you play in Sporting or Benfica or PSG, it's a high level. But the difference between the Premier League and playing in one of those leagues is that when you play the 15th best team in the league...

It's totally different in the Premier League to play in the 15th best team in Germany or Portugal or France. You know, if you did a tournament where 1-20 plays each other in every league, Premier League would win every league and they'd win every league because 10th downwards would win pretty much every match against every other European league. And that is the difference in this league, that there are no free games, maybe apart from Southampton this year, but there are essentially no free games

at all and it's a harder level against 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th in England than it is anywhere else and that's sometimes where these players get found out where managers can get found out and you know it's something that Ten Hag it's I mean it's something that Ten Hag and Amarim have had to confront that as managers of Sporting and Ajax when you play a team that's 12th, 13th, 14th in Holland or Portugal you

The difference in quality between the players is massive. And in the Premier League, it's not as big. It's more condensed. And players, these kind of, you know, the unicorn players, the great players, they're

in Ajax's team and Sporting's team will win you those games whereas in the Premier League often they won't love a unicorn player unicorn player like Guacarez or maybe Anthony it's a very good point though it's well made I completely agree to be fair we'll end the podcast on agreement on a good point the beer podcast thanks for your time as usual pleasure Stephen thank you thanks for listening as usual to the listeners

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