Understanding spatial computing -- and how leaders can prep for the next tech shift
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Welcome to Meet the Leader, the podcast where top leaders share how they're tackling the world's toughest challenges. In today's episode, we talk to spatial computing expert Kathy Hackle about how this new technology can reshape how we work and live and how leaders can prepare. Subscribe to Meet the Leader on Apple, Spotify and wherever you get your favorite podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review us. I'm Linda Lucina, but the World Economic Forum

and this is meet the leader if mobile computing changes your business if mobile computing changes your services and your products spatial computing is about to do the same thing again a new technology is going to reshape how we work and live slash costs augment the workforce in new superhuman ways and for once we're not talking about ai we're talking about spatial computing

Spatial computing is a new field in technology that combines the physical world with virtual experiences, getting us away from screens. It will make the content that we are already obsessed with on our simple mobile devices more immersive and more interactive. It might even turn audiences into real storytellers.

It'll change how we train medical doctors, educate children, and even perhaps how we preserve our memories. I had the chance to talk to Future Dynamics founder Kathy Hackle all about spatial computing at the World Economic Forum offices in San Francisco a few months back. She broke down why this technology is so important and what could scale it further or even hold it back.

She also shared with me how companies and leaders can get ready, what they need to be thinking about now to prepare the newest generation of workers, Gen Alpha. She'll talk about all of that, including what gives her hope and what keeps her up at night with some of these new advances. But first, she'll tell us more about spatial computing.

So I think with spatial computing, we need to start from the premise that it is not another word for mixed reality, and it is not one single piece of hardware, right? I think it's important for people to understand that and take a step back. When we're talking about spatial computing, really what we're talking about is the future of how humans will interact with technology. It is an evolving 3D-centric form of computing that at its core uses AI, computer vision, extended reality, and other technologies.

to seamlessly blend virtual content and experiences in someone's experience of the physical world. That in turn ushers in a new way for humans to communicate with each other, but also for humans to interact with technology and with computers in new ways. And the easiest way for people to understand it is technology.

It's pretty much computing that expands computing into everything you can see, touch, know, and feel. So you start to bring computing into the physical world, which is something that has been lacking for a very long time. What would be maybe an example of this? So give us a sneak peek of what we can kind of understand about it. Yeah, so it's important to think

about the roadmap that leads us to spatial computing in order to understand it. Right? So computing started with mainframe computing. That was something that a lot of people had access to. Then moved to desktop computing where you could actually have a computer computer

Most people had it at work or at school, and then eventually it came into the home. Then that ushered in a new era of computing, which was mobile computing, kind of where we are right now, where we take our computers with us all the time, whether it's our iPad or our phones or whatever it is. And that ushered in a huge sea change of opportunities and ways of communication and ways of interacting with technology. What you're starting to see right now is an evolution from mobile computing

into spatial computing, right? Computing that extends beyond the screens and starts to understand the physical world that expands computing further. So that's kind of where we're heading and where we're going. It's really, really early. If you think about the early beginnings of mobile computing and how a lot of people doubted what it would become, right? If you look at today, we can't live without our mobile phones. They're our lifeline.

We're at the beginning of spatial computing. So just like mobile computing changed human to human communications and business and human computer interaction, we're at the beginning of another change in computing and another expansion of the web. And to put that into maybe a blue sky context, what could we expect maybe down the line when this is more mature? How will it change how we work or maybe how we live?

So one part of spatial computing is actually robotics. I don't think a lot of people think about that. But when you start to think about the idea and the concept of AI that understands and can navigate the physical world, whether it is in the form of an autonomous vehicle that is truly autonomous or whether it's in the form of a humanoid robot that is, you know, doing chores or

you know, stacking boxes, or even if you think about holograms of people moving across the world, that's kind of what we're talking about is this convergence of people interacting with technology in new ways.

And is there maybe an example of some traction that we're already starting to see with spatial computing? You're starting to see content become a lot more immersive and interactive. So for example, the work that the World Economic Forum is doing with the Global Collaboration Village in virtual reality and extended reality is an early version of what you can start to see.

Once you port that into spatial computing and you can actually have these digital overlays on the physical world, it starts to become a lot more collaborative, presence changes. So I think those are some of the early things you're starting to see. There's a really great case study from Lockheed Martin in partnership with Microsoft.

where they used the Microsoft HoloLens, an early spatial computer, to help build, I think it's the Orion capsule, which is part of Artemis. And what they found using spatial computing was a 90% reduction cost in labor hours. So the labor costs went way down by 90%.

That is an early example, a very unique case, right? Because it's Artemis and it's creating one of one. But those are case studies that start to prove that spatial computing can actually give us superhuman powers of sorts, augment our workforce. So you're going to start to see that. You're also going to start to see it more in the medical field.

where you're able to see a 3D model of the heart in front of you in the physical world. You're able to expand it. You're able to go inside the heart. So think of that from an education standpoint and kind of people learning, whether they're residents or medical students, whatever, but also from the point of the patient, of patient education and being able to understand if you're having a procedure, what is actually going to happen. So I think we're going to see a sea change when it comes to education, when it comes to work.

When it comes to entertainment, a lot of these companies are looking at how they use more immersive entertainment. So, for example, Marvel launched an experience in the Apple Vision Pro, which is an early spatial computer that is a lot more interactive, that in some ways moves us from being passive recipients of technology into active participants. So moving from storytelling and just listening to a story to what's called story living, we're actually part of the action and part of the story.

And how is spatial computing different than, say, the metaverse? So it's a great question. Spatial computing is not the same thing as the metaverse. So just like mobile computing is not the same thing as the mobile internet, spatial computing is not the same thing as the metaverse, a.k.a. the spatial web, or spatial computing is not the same thing as a spatial computer or an AI wearable.

When we talk about the metaverse, and that term is evolving, definitely, I think people are going to start to use the term spatial web or spatial internet more so than metaverse. But when you're talking about the expansion of the web, you're talking about the web that actually kind of starts to break free of screens into the physical world.

And that happens through some type of hardware, some type of spatial computer, some type of air wearable. And what you're going to be doing when you do that is that you're going to be engaging with technology differently. The Internet expands. Right. But at the same time, as the Web evolves, you've got computing changing.

So when you think of spatial computing, you have to think about the four components of spatial computing, which is the hardware. So yes, the Apple Vision Pro, the Microsoft HoloLens 2, but also all these new devices like the Humane AI Pen and the R1 Rabbit and the Rewind Pendant and the Meta Ray-Ban glasses and all this other hardware explosion that you're going to see coming in the next months.

Those are all versions of what potentially could replace the mobile phone in the era of spatial computing. So some are spatial computers, some are AI wearables. It's going to depend. So one part is hardware. The other part is software. And that's where you have everything happening, for example, with large language models and large vision models in the AI space, but also game engines and everything that's happening in the software side, which is a massive, massive part of it.

Then you've got also new data types. So for example, moving away from pixels, there might be 2D2 voxels that have depth. There's LiDAR scanning that produces a certain type of data. You're going to start to see VIDAR scanning that it has more depth. So you're going to start to see new data and content types. And then in order for all of this to work and actually happen, you're going to need

connectivity at levels we have never seen and that in itself is cloud computing edge computing 5g is not even going to cut it you're going to need 6g and everything in between so you've got hardware software data and connectivity those are the four components of what spatial computing is so spatial computing is in one single technology or one single device spatial computing is almost almost like a new you know technological field of sorts just like mobile computing had many components facial computing has many different components as well

As we saw with artificial intelligence, there's great potential and great possibility. What are maybe things that we should be keeping in mind as we develop this new technology to make sure that it's inclusive, it's safe, it's doing the right things? So I think a few things. We could not have spatial computing if we didn't have generative AI and computer vision.

Right. At the core of what spatial computing is, there is computer vision and AI. So I think it's really important to understand that everything that's been happening in the AI boom actually is what's starting to help spatial computing truly happen. Right. Because you need these spatial computers to understand the physical world. They can only do that through computer vision. And in order to start to create these models and this like modeling of the world, they're going to need, you know, these large models to be trained. So so I think that's really important when we start to think about the positives and the negatives. Right.

When you start to think about spatial computing, expanding computing into everything you can see, touch, know, and feel, it's exciting because it breaks computing and technology free of the screens and brings it into the physical world, which can turn the physical world into a bigger canvas, right? That's really exciting. The flip side of that is that it can be a canvas that you can decorate and make more beautiful. I mean, it's already beautiful, but you can make it even more beautiful. But the flip side is that it also becomes real estate.

So everything within eyesight and earshot of you becomes real estate. That in itself can be very worrisome and troublesome if we don't get ahead of it, if we don't understand what's happening. There's definitely potential issues with privacy. A lot of these facial computers do take in a lot of biometric data like retina scanning. They understand your face. They understand your

voice. They start to understand, you know, how you're moving. So there's a lot of privacy issues potentially there. And then when you expand computing into the physical world and the world becomes a canvas for real estate, you also have to start thinking about something called virtual air rights. So who owns the air around me? Who can show me things?

Because what starts to be unlocked is that right now our computers and our phones have tons of data. They're giving off tons of data. We just don't see it, right? We don't consume it. We don't see the ones and zeros that are coming off of our devices. But once you have that spatial computer or those devices that allow you to tap into that data layer,

We're going to see what computers can see. And that's where it starts to get really interesting because man meets the machine there. So when you tap into that data layer, the air around you becomes virtual air, right? So who has the right to show you things? Who has the right to put an ad in front of you? Who has the right to put audio in it, right? That's where I think virtual air starts to become a bigger conversation that is going to impact absolutely everyone across the world once this type of computing is unlocked.

You mentioned that there were those four components of spatial computing, connectivity, hardware, et cetera. What needs to change so spatial computing can scale? What in those four areas needs to change? It's incredibly early in the spatial computing days. Like I mentioned, we need connectivity and compute power like we've never seen. We're already being forced to think about compute power in a totally different way because of the AI boom.

So computing has to evolve and change. We're going to need cloud computing and edge computing in levels we've never seen before. And then when you're talking about an out-of-home experience of millions, if not billions of people wearing a spatial computer or a hardware device, smart glasses, whatever it is, all out of home, having that experience, tapping into that data layer, you're talking about 6G, 6G plus. I mean, levels of connectivity hasn't been created.

Right. So in order for it to happen, I think the building blocks are being created today. It's really early days of spatial computing. So this moment in time that we're in is as revolutionary as the beginning of mobile. So I definitely see, you know, the new Airbnbs, the new Facebooks of the world being created today. And with that comes great opportunities, great economic opportunities. But there's also going to be lots of challenges and there's going to be a lot of things that we obviously didn't do right in the mobile computing era, which I hope that we do better in the spatial computing era.

What will the entrepreneurs of the spatial computing era need to succeed and to be supported aside from just capital and all that good stuff? What will they need? What frameworks, what support, what thought work will we need to do to kind of help those folks? So I think the entrepreneurs of the spatial computing era are driven by creativity. A lot of them, in my perspective, are Gen Z or Gen Alpha. When you look at Gen Alpha, they are growing up in a world where AI is

XR, blockchain, all these sorts of things are ubiquitous. So I think that they themselves are different. By 2030, it is estimated that 10% of the workforce will be Generation Alpha. So that in itself puts a different spin on what companies need to do to hire professionals.

to retain them, to train them. They also spend a lot of their time in virtual spaces, flowing between virtual and physical world. And that's where they spend their money. I think the concept of digital assets of value, of ownership is a little bit different for this younger generation. And that in itself is going to open up new commerce models and new business opportunities that we haven't even thought about.

How can companies better prepare for this new generation? It's not coming this minute, but it's coming down the pike. What can they do to prepare for this new generation of workers? So in order for companies to prepare for Generation Alpha, I think that they need to start to understand that Generation Alpha itself is going to be one of the largest cohorts.

of younger children and younger workers. They are technologically savvy. They go in between the virtual and the physical seamlessly. They have a much more kinetic experience with technology in the sense that they're active gamers. They're actively engaging with it.

Whereas, you know, I think Gen Z is more like the scrolling generation. They're passively seeing these videos that say I'm Gen Z, but the Gen Alpha, Generation Alpha is much more engaged with it. They're doing things. It's a lot more of a kinetic experience. So I think understanding that. I think another thing they can do is lean into gaming.

a lot more, not just as a novelty and as a way to market to new consumers, but as a way of actually understanding how they like to learn and how they learn resilience and what they like to do. So I think gaming is going to be a big part. The advice I give any CEO I work with or any corporation I advise is don't

Take time to play video games with the kids in your life, whether they're your grandchildren or your cousins and nieces or your children or whoever they are. Spend time with them in these gaming spaces and you'll start to understand what it truly means to be a generation alpha kid who flows between the physical and the virtual and assigns value to virtual assets.

So things like that. I think also trying to better understand what this generation is looking for and how do they react to change. Many of them grew up during the COVID time. That in itself has a huge impact into how they see the world in the future. So things like that I think would be important. And how do corporations prepare for spatial computing?

Start to think about what happens when computing expands into the physical world. How do your services, how do your products change? I'm not telling anyone to go rush and buy 10 Apple Vision Pros. That is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is start small. It's really early. But if mobile computing changed your business, if mobile computing changed your services and your products, spatial computing is about to do the same thing again.

Looking at gaming also changed maybe how companies prepare the younger generation for how to work with one another, especially if they're in remote teams that maybe not everybody's going to be sitting in a bullpen in 20 years. Should they be thinking about new ways to apply gaming as far as like, you know, applying best practices in the workplace? Yeah, I think companies should start thinking about gaming in a collaborative sense.

because there is already a lot of collaboration and socialization that happens inside gaming spaces for this younger generation. Gaming is their new social network. I think that there's a lot of things happening there in that space that they need to start to think about. So embracing gaming, not as a fad, not only as a marketing channel, but gaming truly as a way to train the workforce or to even recruit. One thing I did when I was recruiting Roblox developers was actually interviewing them in Roblox.

bringing them into a build and say, what would you do different? That is the environment that they're going to be building in, right? So I think you're going to start to see this used more and more in that sense. And we talked about what's needed to scale. What can hold the scale back of spatial computing? So whenever I get asked what can happen so that spatial computing doesn't come to fruition,

I always revert to a few things. And one of them is climate change. I think if we do not address the climate change issue, we're not going to have the compute power that we need. Plus also there's catastrophic climate change that, you know, takes out part of the Eastern seaboard. I think it's like 70%.

of the world's internet traffic actually goes to Northern Virginia through the data centers that are in there for AWS and for Google and for Azure and everything. So yeah, if you have catastrophic climate change that takes out all the data centers, there's no internet. So there's no spatial computing and no spatial web.

So that's one thing. Another thing that I think is a threat is everything that's starting to happen with the future of the internet and splinternets and a lot of like very, very small state regulation that started to fracture the internet as a whole, right? We understand the internet as a place that we go and we find information. But once you start to, at a state level, change that, that starts to change what people have access to. So geopolitically, I think looking at what's happening in internet regulation is incredibly important.

If, for example, I can only access a certain type of Internet because I have a certain type of hardware and I can only use a certain type of cloud provider that limits me, then you start to create different versions of the Internet and then everyone's on a different version.

Right. So the idea of the splinter nets becomes even worse. So I think that there's a geopolitical component there. I think legally there's going to be a lot of legislation that needs to be looked at from a privacy perspective that might change from country to country. So the Internet itself and how we engage with an Internet that is in the physical world, I think, can have a massive impact. It might be very splintered. It might not be the Internet as we understand it currently.

You started a company this year. Can you tell us a little bit about it and what it focuses on? We started off really early. We launched in February. Very early on, we understand it's the early days, but we do see this moment in this era of spatial computing being ushered in as revolutionary as mobile computing was.

We have evolved in even in the last few months of what we're doing. We're now looking more at doing spatial computing and AI together. So spatial intelligence, which is pretty much AI that can actually not just see the physical world, but actually have perspective. It can actually execute and implement in the physical world.

I think that that is something that is incredibly interesting, very powerful once you start to think about the power that computing can have once it understands the physical world. So that's what we're doing right now. Future Dynamics is working on a special project for a fashion brand. Hanifa, can you talk a little bit about this and how it works? So Hanifa as a brand has always been revolutionary. They were the first brand to do a 3D fashion show during COVID. They went viral because of that.

So Hanifa has always been at the forefront of technology. So when spatial computing started to become something that they saw in the news and when we knew the Apple Vision Pro was launching, I came to Hanifa, the owner of Hanifa, and said, I think there's an opportunity to create here a spatial computing shopping experience, fashion experience that no one has ever seen before. So that's kind of what we're working on with them. What would you like to see spatial computing do? In your wishlist, blue skying it, what would you like to see?

What I would like to see is a world where we can truly learn about history in our physical space. So I imagine walking around Rome or walking around, you know, the Egyptian pyramids. And instead of having to wear something in my ear that tells me what happened, I can actually start to see it.

How were the pyramids built or what happened in this part of Rome and actually have that visual depiction. So that's one thing where I think it's going to hypercharge education. It's going to lead us back to imagination. I think children themselves are born, they have 3D knowledge, they understand the world spatially. And eventually when they go to school, that gets kind of like kicked out of them in some ways because they have to write on a flat piece of paper or type on a flat screen. But I think going back to that

spatial awareness and that volumetric way of seeing the world, I think is going to be very important. So that's one thing. The other thing I hope to see is that with these new, more immersive technologies, that we start to truly do historical and heritage preservation in ways we've never seen before.

I'm very excited about that because you're going to be able to preserve, for example, dances in 3D form and in video that has depth, spatial video. You need sometimes that volume to truly understand how something happens. So the historical preservation, I think, is a huge thing that we're going to see unlocked through these new formats. And also as simple as...

you know, the future of the family album. You know, when I was growing up, I had a box full of photos. Right now, all those photos are digitized. But when you start to actually preserve these memories with spatial video and with depth, you can actually kind of almost truly go back to those moments and relive them. And I think there's something very powerful. I started shooting spatial video with my new iPhone because I wanted to start to preserve those moments. And for example, if I travel...

And I miss my kids. I can put my Apple Vision Pro on and go into these spatial videos. And it feels like I'm there with them. I have a video of them playing in the snow and I can see the snow falling. I can see the depth. I can see them jumping in a way that you cannot experience the same in a flat surface. Or even things as silly as doing a spatial video of my dad, who's 80 years old, reading Llama Llama Red Pajama, which is my kid's favorite book, to them. And preserving that in spatial video in 3D depth experience.

is so powerful that, you know, one day when he's no longer here, being able to kind of relive that and go into that experience will be a lot more emotional and will make me connect with the memory in a lot more humanistic way than I would with a flat experience.

Would you recommend people play with whatever devices are available right now so they can understand the potential of spatial computing? Yeah, definitely. If you can get your hands on a VR headset, whether it's an Apple Vision Pro, which is obviously a very, very expensive piece of hardware, but these types of devices, trying to put them on, understand what do we talk about when we talk about new interfaces?

and how humans are going to interface differently with technology, how it's going to enable new communication. For example, during the Global Technology Retreat, I was able to go into the Global Collaboration Village and see the experience and have that experience with multiple people that were there, some were here in San Francisco, some were in Malaysia, some were in Geneva, and have that kind of co-presence

I think is extremely powerful. Starting to experience that, I think is going to change the way we view business, the way we view collaboration and education. So that's definitely one thing. I think also educating yourself on what this is and where things are going and, and,

There has never been, in my perspective, a better time to launch a new venture, if you so please, because today's moment is as impactful as mobile computing was. Imagine if Uber never launched or imagine if Airbnb never launched. These are the things that are being created today. So it's truly an exciting moment. I would say that working very deeply in the gaming space

definitely prepared me. I was able to kind of work very closely with Walmart as their metaverse advisor and residents when they were starting to take their first steps in Roblox and some of these gaming platforms. That was incredibly helpful. I also produced a virtual concert for them called Electric Fest. And that experience of merging physical and virtual in these gaming environments was a challenge, but also challenging

taught me a lot about what I can do and what I can accomplish and how, especially for this younger generation going between virtual and physical is seamless. Is there something that you do now as a leader that just would not have occurred to you at the beginning of your career, but now you use it all the time? I think like,

I think like many people in the tech field, I'm using AI every day. If you would have asked me three years ago, if I would be doing that, I wouldn't be telling you I'd be doing, you know, using chat GPT every day or perplexity or, you know, asking AIs to plan my travel itineraries. But that's something I do every day. Like it's almost second nature at this point. So, yeah, that's that's something I think a lot of especially in the tech industry have to embrace is.

It can be a little uncomfortable at times, right? A little difficult. But once you get into it and once you understand what it facilitates and what it unlocks, you start to get used to it. And then it's hard to go back to the old ways of doing things. And is there a habit that you've developed over time or honed that you just would not be able to work without? You take that away and Kathy Hackle goes away. Like, what's this habit that you have?

I am a voracious consumer of content. And I love educating myself about things that I do not understand, even if it's hard. So right now, for example, I am not a quantum computing expert. I will never be a quantum computing expert, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can. So consuming content from different sources, trying to understand, trying to make sense of what does this mean in the context of X, Y, or Z? I think the fact that we have so much knowledge at our fingertips is

is so incredibly powerful. So yeah, I think if anyone were to take away that curiosity for me or the access to information, that would definitely change who I am. But because we have so much knowledge in the palm of our hands, it is incredibly powerful. It is difficult to retain women in tech in any field, really. What's helped you? What has helped me stay in the tech industry and become a leader in it

I think it's different things. One of them is when I came in, I was able to see other women and other Latina women like myself in leadership roles. So I looked, for example, at Noni de la Peña, who is known as the godmother of VR. She's Latina, having an amazing, amazing leadership role. I was able to see Evelyn Miralles, who used to run the NASA Virtual Reality Lab, another Latina woman in tech in a leadership role.

And seeing women like me that had achieved success motivated me because if you can see it, you can be it. Right. So I think that really catapulted me and said, I can do this. I can actually be that. And I definitely think there's been great allies, both men, women that have supported me, that have championed me, that have said, oh, let me give her an opportunity.

And I think that there's also from our own personal drive, knowing that, you know, don't take no for an answer. Like the best thing you can tell me is no, because I'm going to go try to do it. Don't tell me I can't do it because I will go and try to do everything I can in my power to achieve this. So I think doing those sorts of things,

are incredibly important. I'm starting to see also more young women interested in technology, especially young women that are into gaming and into playing video games. I think that we're about to see kind of more and more of these women enter the workforce and be interested in technology and STEM and STEAM disciplines.

You are also an entrepreneur. Is there also just the reminder that you can create your own opportunities? There's a great reminder that we can create our own opportunities. And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we can actually start to see networks of women that are helping each other.

I think that there is a fallacy out there that women are undercutting other women. In some spaces, that does happen. But what I have seen is a very welcoming environment, a lot of women helping each other, funding each other, you know, gaining access to capital. So I think that there is this really exciting moment when it comes to women in tech and women entrepreneurs.

Is there a book you recommend? I would recommend several books. Right now, I'm reading three books. I'm reading Fei Fei Li's The Worlds I Will See. I believe that's the title, which is a great technology book, but it also talks about her and her life. And she's someone that I look up to, someone that, you know, runs a spatial intelligence startup. And, you know, as the godmother of AI and I'm the godmother of the metaverse, I look up to her and the work she's done.

So that's one book. Also Salman Rushdie's Knife, which is a fantastic read, a very personal, I think, personal book. I didn't know what to expect from it, but I was very surprised. And then I recently read a memoir by a female entrepreneur called Nicole Walters called Nothing is Missing.

And it's about her experience, you know, growing up as the daughter of immigrant parents in Washington, D.C., and then her success in business in her trials personally up and down from an entrepreneurial standpoint, but also personal standpoint.

And it was interesting because he said, everything is right and everything is wrong. Nothing is missing. And there was something in that and in the way she wrote her memoir that really inspired me and said, you know what? No matter how bad things get, no matter how great things get, nothing is missing. I'm supposed to be living this experience and having this experience both in the good and the bad. So I highly recommend it for any women out there, any entrepreneurs in general to read her book. Is there anything that keeps you up at night? A lot of things keep me up at night.

Like the future of my three Gen Alpha children. But what I would say from a technical standpoint is virtual air rights keep me up at night. They probably don't keep most people up at night, but they keep me up at night. Because when I think about, you know, the evolution of the web and expansion of computing into the physical world. And yes, the physical world can become a canvas. The fact that it can also become real estate worries me. I live in Washington, D.C., and part of the work I'm doing there is to try to get more people

lawmakers to start to think about that. Like once you break that barrier of the screen and computings in the physical world, what does that mean? How do you even regulate that? Should you even regulate it? And if so, how? And, you know, who owns the air around me? And your last question, what's that piece of advice that you've always been grateful for?

I think a piece of advice that I've always been grateful for is if you can see it, you can be it. Because that truly was the case for me. When I was able to kind of see other women like me succeed, I knew I could do it. And

And it gave me great hope. So biggest piece of advice. I also think, and it's not so much a piece of advice, but it's more of a concept and an idea is that there's no straight line. Especially if you work in technology, your path is never a straight line. So don't think that you're going to go from high school to college and it's going to be a straight line. There's so many twists and turns. I started off my career in journalism. I was a broadcast journalist. I reached my apex as an Emmy nominated journalist. And I thought that's what I was going to do for the rest of my life.

There were other plans. The universe wanted me to go into technology. We would chat. It's twists and turns. It hasn't always been pretty, but I'm arriving here. And, you know, I've lived many lives in that sense, and I can't wait to see what other lives I'm going to live.

That was Kathy Hackle. Thanks so much to her. And thanks so much to you for listening. For more podcasts, including my colleague's podcast, Radio Davos, go to wef.ch slash podcasts. This episode of Meet the Leader was produced and presented by me, with Jerry Johansson and Taz Kelleher as editor, Edward Bailey as studio engineer in San Francisco, and Gareth Nolan driving studio production. That's it for now. I'm Linda Lucina from the World Economic Forum. Have a great day.