463: Urban Warfare Perspective on Ukraine and Israel. With John Spencer
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This is joko podcast before sixty three with ecotones me joko willing. Good evening and good eventually joining us once again tonight is john Spencer. John Spencer, who is on podcast more sixty two.

We talked about his book connected soldiers, life leaders and social connections in modern warfare. He was active duty in the army for twenty five years. He went up through the ranks.

You guys called a mustang? yes. okay. So he was a musing, like me, from private to major, served as a platoon leader and a complete commander in iraq.

And right now he is the chair of urban warfare studies at the modern warrants to the west point, also serves the chair of urban warfare studies with the medicine policy forum and a member of the international working group on subterranean warfare. And he's read a bunch of books. We've covered one of them.

He's read a bunch of articles. I've read some of them. He's contributed to a bunch different box. And I guess the reason we stopped last time because we are about to start getting into what you started doing when you retired from the army.

But I think one of the things that LED to what you did when you retired was teaching a west point was, was that impact for so you're still in the army. You ended up teaching a west point. Yep.

talking me about that. So actually my x or the Young erd had got in a job to teach psychology at west point. I needed to keep the family together.

So I applied for a position in the department of military instructions, teaching tactics. But he was also a nurse of time. I just come out the pinion on, actually working for the four star general of the the U.

S. Army general with narrow he had created and and I hate to admit this, something off of what the navy had created a the call of the S S. G strategic studies group and the cn o had one for, like twenty years he closed IT.

But the general, the time wanted, once we put together this band, like twenty senior officers, junior officers and civilians, to think outside the box for him, the things he wasn't watching. For a year I studied mega cities, which is really introduction of my academic study of urban areas. So the growth of cities around the world, urbanization.

everything and how many mega cities are there?

There's over thirty five at this moment. There are predictions. So those are the over ten IT. That wasn't as important as the fact that you're just from nineteen sixty where we only had around sixty three cities over a million and hours over five hundred.

So the rapid urias ation of population growth, but also IT, meant that more war is going to happen in urban areas. The year study found that the U. S.

Military wasn't prepared for Operating in negotiations, and there has some recommendations. But I like most motiv, I had to go to do my next job. But that year is very formula in my ability to think, unconstrained by we talking about the last podcast about way military.

So I I actually was studying how the U. S. Milk is designed for certain planning scenarios, like White counter, certain cy, when we need to vote.

The military is designed fite certain battles against certain enemies. And certain locations are called defensive planning scenarios. So I took that all of that, but I went to west point. You guy, get back to your job now. I was teaching your ambushes and rage and military departments.

But the superintendent of west point, which the three star general said he wanted there, a relook at the the united, not academies milan program because it's a college know has a robust academic program but IT also says military um so why I was a part of because I had come out of the pinning gon I got a point in charge of this external review. We brought in namic mastery abode, much of people to do and look as westpoint being the best. You're not just in academics, but the military programs.

And one of the solutions, one of the products of that review is to create a research center called the modern war institute. Because what we ve found looking, if you want your military adem es course you want in your military to be prepared for modern wars. But we found that historians study war from twenty years ago .

or two hundred years ago, right? Two thousand years ago.

But you for history to publish on war takes them a long time, just by the, I make one of the historians, a lot journalists embed in me like this bastion Younger, and all those that report on what what's going on now. But the military had actually not had from an academic people studying modern wars that much, that we created the modern ways to staff that.

I was the deputy director of IT, and this is when were still duty major, also started to strategies. I went from teach platon tactics, strategy. So like introduction to teach c studies. So teaching cadets about claude sn, zoo, germany, both we warm in all these. So IT IT was really .

the heart .

yeah the yeah all of IT yeah no, we get recover. You could we have a defensive strategy, planning or strategic studies? Academic major, their west point.

So I was teaching with a little chAllenge. I didn't learn any of that, but I don't learn IT and then teach you. But he gave me some stuff.

I corporate in the books and not others, but also a language of connecting strategy, war, the history of how to study war, because some people even know, like even close with books, is a guy to how to study were, and how to study the with death and context of IT, which really started to come in to play when I started studying urban battles, is the context of the teaching. But time ago, military says, either you move to this job away from your family or you can take the exit. And I took the exit, but the modern works to was up and running.

And I actually write one article um a part of the money working on the U. S. Motorists use of concrete in iraq actually like the most effective weapon on the modern bottle of this .

concrete tea barriers. Let's go right.

And I found out that the world did not know that the U. S. Military put up concrete direct. That's how we reduce the ideas. That's how we created the safe neighborhood.

We fought a whole battle called the bottles other city where we put a all around the enemy um he went viral like national geographic, picked up like he was insane that the world did know that that was a big part of our actually how we fought the war in iraq, whether he was automated, the great wall automobile, there is a market for urban research but also because I done that work on magazine, I knew that there's not a single office in the U. S. Military that studies are more for.

There's not a single school outside of like some new in clear room schools. Um so that the gap in the body of knowledge from military states was there. I broke that article, responded, and I started ready more articles. What year was that was two thousand and seventeen.

My friend said stone. He was A A troop commander that supported the effort to build a one solar city.

And so he got home, and he was going to brief like, like someone at the pentagon, probable probably the CNN or or something along these lines, right? And so he came to my house and he had, he was preparing his slides and stuff, and he was crappy, you know? But that's why he was over there, because he knew he was crap in his, like, you could help me look, I gotta give this brief and everyone going to eat there, bob. And I like, because I washing do IT like two times, and I said, no and I gave this opener and I gave the opener. He was, like, five sentences of explaining what solar city, no solar city had .

been A A stronghold .

for the moti militia for since two thousand and three. IT had this many casualties a day. I had missed mini at rockets fired from IT, and we needed to stop this.

So we utilized an interest in the ancient military strategy. We built a wall, and that was the opening of his thing. And I was freaking legit.

I actually. So I write case studies now um which I I find fast ating because a lot of there's a lot of urban legends about urban warfare like what we think happened, whether it's even our own experiences. First battles of luis, second Better of flutter remote haven't finished that case study, but we just finish to saw our city case study, which was I was there. But then they have to use this framework because case study uses the same framework to to analyze like the strategic environment, the Operational down, the attacks on how we actually we actually the wall wasn't the plan at all. The wall, there's actually the company commander saying, like, well, I connect this wall, this wall they can get to the rocket fire in point.

Or company commander, like, hi all second, finish building this division.

Commit on, yeah, yeah, do that. And then I cut the IT, cut the enemy off from the the money supply as the market was right outside the wall. So were about to released that case study.

This is also that crete, interesting that concrete article. The more words to also came out two thousand and sixteen and seventeen there. There's a big battle happening right there, the two thousand sixteen battle of the cool, the largest urban battles into world war two.

And I have said, I get a call from some dawn rains going. We would like to talk to you about your concrete article, like why you want to talk to me about my concrete article, because we left a lot of concrete interrex. We left all the t wars, like the iraqis. If you stated in long that we just move them out the way, or think, well, what did I S do with without that military grade fortifications and use them, and built very massive fortification lines .

made of R T barriers.

R T bars, which are really hard to doing thing about because it's still reinforce still rebar running into those. And you can drop A A J M on some of them and there's still be there. Uh so they IT was really interesting from new academia to be called like we got some questions about what your ideas about concrete are.

But two thousand twenty was time to hang up the hat in the modern world. You said we are also doing something big part of um doing the research was something we call a contemporary battle field assessments. We had this photo at west point of cadets going to the battlefield war two like weeks after the world.

They got on a ship in new jersey and went there and they were they will be walked around. The bottle will buy Better to have fought there. Yeah, if we had that photo, IT was a part of standing more.

What one used to do this? I think we, we, we do an event. Battle field and we take people to get his burg um and I think we have pictures of them. We definite picture of all kinds pointers walk in the battlefield that I did get his bird and uh which is which is awesome but actually one ny know I was pointing out the fire that we had at my gym.

M that is right here um and the firefighters, because he was a real fire, they really, they got to fight the fire, which you don't Normally get to fight a fire the way they fought this fire that people had to go inside, people had to put the host down, they to rip up in the roof. And so they they walk their cadette through there now, and their probe, they walk. Confusion shown.

This is all, this is what the guys, and like the guys, they did IT go there and brief. So yeah, that's a very powerful thing. And I guess you guys at west point, we're saying, way to second, they used to take these guys right there, right after the battle.

What do we do? And we don't do anymore like we do gage berg every year. And I can I can talk you about every stand.

Um so we built into building this research center that that was one of the core functions because in the summer's west point codec o all around the world they go to africa, they they go all around the world to language culture. They evade with like the three letter organza, really a best summer program. Nobody is out studies war, so we built this program called the continual battle, the assessments.

The first place we took them was bosnia study, like the seiji serio. Um I actually. Took one. The last things I did in two thousand eighteen before retiring was take cadets to mumbai, india, to study the two thousand eight mobile attacks, where tin terrorists take down a mega city in one of the most impressively plan terrorist attacks that i've ever seen, but to walk the ground of every site that the terrorist attack, and how they did IT, how they planned at everything.

And then we went up to the north, towards of the pack in any border, because there are two week studies. But really after that I was amazing to to learn about that if you haven't study that attack insane. What they are able to do with a bunch of private basically with um the terrors had earphone basically sell light in their ears.

So they were being commanded from outside the country to attack and do certain things against these. They hit five location simulator ously, just brought down a megacity ity, overloaded its systems. Everything from an urban worker perspective is fascinating.

But I also learn, like you can't replace walk in the ground. Uh, right about them is what i'm retiring. And then the because of the uniqueness of they're like twenty seven research centers at west point that also have the ability to hire external researchers.

And I got offered like, do you want to keep doing this a as a dream job? So at two thousand nineteen, I started this academic urban worker project, which I would have focus only on urban warfare study IT, right about IT. I started the podcast as now many years, to include interviewing experts and like smart cities and your policed police chiefs and sort team leaders and everything.

Because there's two aspects in my job of, there's understanding urban warfare and like military Operations in urban train, but there's also understanding cities and is a giant gap in in the world leone, in military, even the combat and commanders. I was at a conference where more inspiration in my job, a command commander said, look, I had this A O R. And I didn't have anybody in the entire comment command that could tell me about one of the cities because they do country teams they can tell you about, like, duck our own mumbai when I was in mumbai. Like who's your mumbai expert? Like in mumbai, I the country teams, yeah crazy when .

you think about how unique cities are, even cities inside their own country, like just the method gy, that the ways the cities are laid out, what they're constructed with, how what the transportations like, what the infrastructures like, like cities are so different, even inside of america. Cities are so totally different. Now you go overseas, yeah, that's going to be radically different.

And we did. I SHE was doing this as well, taking because is close to new york city, which you has two mega new york city um but the influence and there's there's a concept like mayors of the world, like there's some cities in nations that are more powerful than the nation itself.

IT has more economic like all the city is the nation, but we have the nation state country mindset which applies to even international relations law like like a whole lot of things. I teach a course here in california where we actually take um the urban Operations planning course for divisions and burgage on how to fight large scale combat Operations. Then a part of the developments why I also do that in the california state guard, but we'll fly him over los Angeles, mean, you couldn't offer two different cities in new york city and los Angeles, both their mega cities, but they complete to rain.

So tega importance, everything, all the variables that we teach are vastly different. So said, you can't urban warfare at that scale possible. That big scales really hard when so many cities are so different, like even the power structures like mumbai has a mumba, has a slum built on trash, that is a million people in a one mile area.

It's if you've never seen the movie slim dog. No, yeah, but I went in there and like you would never want even want to alone to a military Operation in there. So I started doing that.

He was noted. I started writing, right writing. And i'm publishing articles about everything from drones and warfare to um the deeper I understood album warfare I also understood like everything from even the battle drill like where does this stuff come from?

Like where is our thinking going back in the past now writing case study about stalling en grad alin or tana like there are similarities in military approaches, but the unique ness, the difference between first battle flutie, second battle fluster, and just becoming more and more aware and learning every year. The then there's a world that starts, well, actually yeah, there's a water starts the two thousand and twenty second or a na. Ca, you know, if you listen, don't know that there's a place between what he used to be, a place between izabela jan and ara called the IT was a really big war.

And everybody was watching because, you know, a military not in war, they're watching other wars. And as I am like this external now, war researcher, i'm watching the media about this, like this, the drone war, I drown our future, that this whole wars about drones, and actually that that war ended in a bottle of a city, a single city, the the entire war, decisive battle over one city called sucha. But because I was in this new role of civilian, we thought maybe this could be a considerable bettle.

So maybe we could take gets there once. So we started reach out to the two country teams of armenia and nerb jan and saying, can we go in there like, it's been like six months since the war ended? Like, no, you can't go there.

Nobody lot in there. I got invited. I wanted tell you by who. So I took my blue passport because i'm a civilian. And I went to ask by jon, and I went in to egana ara bag.

And when all way to wear that battle ended to this place called sushi, which is you would love IT made, they basically inserted to bed or commanders, they combine their basically version and abcs and ranger to combine them, inserted them over a long terrain. The city was the decide that they knew was the objective. And they skilled, like a four hundred flook clift to inflation into the city and take IT down with almost that without a fight.

But I went there to study, like, okay, like everybody is talking about the drone work. But this city, this war ended when that city fell. Urban cities are the economic engine.

Lot times they are. They are the objective. Like they take out the political approach. Bag dead, right, to drive the bag. Dad punched in the middle driver tank around, psychologically defeat your enemy.

Paris, yeah these these things are important .

but that started my and I realized like I got A A lot of trouble just you know of why is what is this american guy doing in that place that the really not supposed to be um wrote the study of of of the case study which was what was doing great. We used to have a practice like we the world of going to other people's world to learn about them, like thinking about our civil war.

We had the germans here know the british year, the french heir just observing like the both the changing in character is in the weapons. But just um we as americans we have people like in japanese. China were other places. And then the anam observers became advisers. Advisers became boots on the ground.

But so maybe we share a little Better away from that very reason.

There are many reasons now politically, as i've learned, because I ve going to tell you about more than i've learned, that there are many reasons why we don't do that. But the fact is that we don't have people in war zones learning about the modern wars. And that came at a cost at west point because you i'm preparing you for war. But what about this war going on right now?

Yeah just for anybody that like no matter what industry you're in, imagine, let's say you didn't know anything about construction and then you went to spend a month on a construction site that's going to be irreplacable compared to someone that SAT in a classroom and learned about IT or let's say you want to learn about manufacturing and you SAT the classroom for a month first as you win into a factory and saw how everything was wrong.

So the amount of things that you're going to learn when you get embedded and immersed in and is going to be exponentially Better than what you learn sitting in a classroom. So to your point, even even, you know, whatever, hundred and fifty years after the battle of gettysburg, there's no doubt that when you go there and you walk the ground, you learn more than you did when you SAT in a classroom or when you read a book. So now when you get there and there's an active work going on on and you can talk to people and you can get the debrief s and you can watch with your own eyes and see with your own a perspective, which, by the way, is a nice detached perspective because you're not in IT, you're watching IT and you can you the ability to learn this phenomenon yeah.

it's it's unmeasurable and it's it's crazy when I tell people like we don't do this like I mean, we don't do this the same thing when I tell you that there's mean the U. S. Military is millions of people and there's not one person whose only job is to study urban warfare, not one office.

Yeah but we also, we used David group called the asymmetric warfare group. The and they would go into Operational areas as Operational visors to U. S. Forces in certain areas.

But they weren't going into other people's wars that we went in to learn, just to learn, right? So I did that was going to car about, which was great. Like, and and I was in people really valued.

Like, how did that city fall? How did that IT LED IT into the war, which the war two years later to started back up? But then the so in russian and vice ukraine in february twenty twenty two, at this point I have been study in urban warper.

Everything from tactics like, and to include myself haven't been in the military twenty years like not knowing where battle drill six like clear room came from. How emerged like from one nine hundred seventy three, from like israel, special forces your mom respond in to the film, integrate into our special units, into our special forces, into the main, where I was an ranger regiment, hearing about IT. But and then we exploded across the whole U.

S. Matter when we were struggling in iraq. Everybody knows how to interpretation room now ignored tactic doesn't really apply urban warfare.

I don't know if you know that that go so we learn to like do swap team tactics and stack outside of doors, you know, hostile dress, host rescue. But in in battle in wars where the enemy knows you there, that goes away really quickly. My back in the second battle, ludo, they were doing that and they quickly stopped.

They know you're there. That tactic is on surprise and violent action. If you don't have surprised, if not going to work, that will. And israeli is learned that hard, like two thousand and two, when I started going through walls and said, going through the doors and the windows. But I had been, so the war stars in twenty two, and I had had been studying or more for a little while.

I also study from both the Operational perspective of how to be, how to win wars, like take the capital city, whatever IT is, depending what the objective of the war is. So I saw russia heading for the capital of cave of ukraine. And this is on fevour twenty six.

I started using, my back was called twitter. I created a seven tweet, a seven thread tweet, on what I, john Spencer, and just a regular guy, I would do if my city was being attacked. IT was like, you black, the rodes parked dum trucks like early from things.

I D D actually written an article in december of twenty twenty one I think yeah was saying, looking at all the battles of history, like the battle of soul, battle manilla um what the defenders did well, so actually wrote an article like tactics that have worked in defendant city snipers barriers, like all these things. And I incorporate that a couple month later. And but if that was this is this is what I would do.

I put out this seven tweet thread and went viral. This is the war that we live in. Now I would viral, like twenty million people saw this tweet thread. And then people started asking for more.

So I started doing, like, the wire diagrams of do this, not that you use, can you use a bus? Not sandbag, I sorry, putting together these P, D, F. And I became these images on on twitter that became A P, D, F.

And then ukrainians were printing that out and distributed. But the the images became a manual that was became what called the mini manor for the urban defenders. And they printed hundreds of thousands of copies, because when the russian is invaded, not just key, but they actually attacked seven cities at once, the guidance from the ukrainy government was resisted, and they were, but that was literally the guidance.

Couple guys were making molotov cocktails, and they made hundreds of thousands of those. And then they made these little, these little, a lot of, if you seen these, like porcupine steel, good or things. And they start put now those out everywhere.

But that was at a limit of guidance. My menu, within a week, the ukrainian government took IT translate ukrainian and put IT up on the website for resisters. And IT was seen from literally from levive to mary apple as a wage civilians could help resist the russian invasion.

Ah it's a it's very throw goes from everything from like the placement of well what you prefer to reinforce the building with all the way down to like medical advice about you know putting on ternate is the home my yard so it's really comprehensive kind of like quick freaks and urban combat defense for dummies type saying no offence but like that's what IT is.

Is that basic? Hey, this is what you need to do but it's stuff that actually echo you know were talking about this early today like some things that they seem real obvious ous once you've been told them but when you haven't been told them, you would never think of them. So that's what I think that man was, uh, really good for. It's got the fundamental principles in there for defense in the urban environment. And clearly, if you've just been attacked, you're gonna those.

And I kept updating. So like the version five that I stopped that, like, but this is becoming more than a guide is becoming like I actually helps rewrite the range hammock while I was a range and structure we thought about less. So I knew also this ranger hamburg.

We don't know so what their students are required, but our emptying career is like a awea manual. But they had lost up that nobody reads in IT. And you really read IT when you're in range good because you really need IT like how how to do an ambush like you in there.

And you allowed to have this book with you so that I I understood that the stress people need simple instructions. So this is like go read a dog. Women if you ever read A U S motor dn like to such such um so like this is i'm an old approach yet lots of pitchers, simple guidance but then you kept growing like people wanted to know how to purify water because like city were cut off from water like mary OPPO.

And then I had to get with like survival like the survival man in the I don't want to saying anything here that's um wrong, like color pure fy water with choring boy like all this IT kept growing and then you had units like what how do you do an ambush? Like why I know, how do I stop doing that because he became more than that. But in that great in IT helpful and i'm very proud the helpful lot of people.

But then just stop writing when they said, how do you run the staff?

You counter drone like I like all the stuff. Um I let that be, but they didn't started being in translated by other countries. So I get request, like, and I prety other for free, of course, like just as a PDF on a website where still is.

But then I started getting questions from, like, mire and marr, how can we change, translate this? Like, why? Or I IT was actually during the woman life freedom movement in in iran as well.

Like can we translated in the person make sure go head lie uh then like the polish um education system, can we translate this in the police for our education system? sure. why? Because this ideal I actually didn't.

I hadn't study this, but this idea of total defense, right? The idea so we have that there's an area called total resistance and the total defenses you not uh, an insurgency like the persons are any country, but like everybodys going to defend, not letting the enemy in is very ancient. There's actually some from or two that I actually started tapping into, like the british had, one the swiss sab, one that like under attack, our nation is going to defend ourselves.

But with all that you, the access information know the simple instructions of stuff like that for civilians get lost. So now I now is in seventeen different languages and has machine like in crazy places around the world um because the simple instructions that are common to you and I like nobody knows, even if they have this idea, that course all are you red dawn like yeah you need to know more than just like bread don like you need some. My book is even like what not to do like don't stand in the open, don't stand on the roof top.

Like that's worth place. You could be in a modern battery eld. Uh, so I really surprised by really happy about IT that one out everything. But i'm also I get paid to do research.

So because if not going a car box and me, my my partner who I do a lot of stuff with, like can we go and do ukraine right now? Of course, the answer is no. You're not loud as in like if you're associate the military or or anything back.

This is I actually was coming on the writing the menu s so that happened in february twenty twenty two. Russia was defeated in April twenty eight, twenty eight, two. And by a deputed, I mean, they did not achieve their strategic goals of overthrown the nation in race in ukrainian from existence. And they actually withdrew all their forces from key. I understood that that .

was was that the was at the stated russian goal, yes, was to turn ukraine into russia. All of IT IT .

was to do notify ukraine. Was you he? So a lot of people try to do revisions of history and go back to IT. IT was a native, was expanding like I don't want it's a long conversation of things that have been said in the past that people then attribute to, like they assemble two hundred thousand russian forces around ukraine and then made a statement, the opening moments, and said, we are entering ukraine to denote fy from its government and overthrow the government.

And do I put specially to create bell root two point o put and wanted to put a within this break up of the soviet union, he has, and he talks about all time, like this is revisionism story of Peter the great, everything that ukraine isn't a country according him. And that's in his statement, he said, like he has said, like ukraine isn't IT, isn't a language, isn't a people with russian his opening presidential comments on the opening of the words that are doing this to unify and free the russian people so he he literally doesn't believe that ukraine I exists. So he his objective and what he did to do IT so you could not say, okay, words don't matter like but that was the.

that was the scheme of maneuver that he said up.

That's why he and he made a lot of mistakes and are written about this. So if his goal was to overthrow the government, principle classic were a goal, right? Take the capital city over through the government placental government, much like iraq, afghanistan rate. Uh, he launched, the decision of Operation was key, and he had to take the capital city.

But he also launched against mario pool sumi herky he actually tacked against seven different fronts, seven different cities because he want them for different reasons he didn't wait the main objective he said um and I written about this so that the in order to achieve the goal you had to take key didn't have to conquer you had to raise russian flag over the singer of the city and say it's much like we did and die that and you cognized to feat your enemy he's lost the will to five they think it's useless. He thought he would do a bag attack on ukraine and and use overwhelming surprise and speed and forced to do IT um that happened in february. You know he actually tried to take an airfield.

They tried to do a joint forcible entry, just like when I was ranger, we would try he tried the season field hostel l inside the capital city he launched two mounted patrol, mounted formation to over twenty thousand soldiers, one downs of bettle rules and one out of russia to attack the city and to take the city um he ran into a lot of variables that had been studying. He ran into urban drain. Uh, he ran into people resisting that he didn't think would be resisting.

He he, you know, he didn't listen to the special forces principle. That one is none. So you try to take one air field didn't have a back up. So the plans are to fall apart.

My manual was a sideshow of, although they my manual was actually implemented in key as they started parking dump trucks s in the streets and things like that, just trying to slow them down, because in in this war, the tragic objective was to rapidly take your objectives and rapidly take the city. So if you could slow them down, this is where there's an idea about, does either cording a closer with that defenses, the strongest form of warfare. But now, politically, but tactically, I say good you.

What if you're in the defense, as that is you, then something, then you're attacking in the defence. But in war, the the objective could just be time. So in this case, russia thought that they would take ukraine quickly. And the military had been tested at the scale a long time. So as I, I, I started also, I started, I hit the kind of the news commonly position once I did that tweet thread, once I there's an urban work here, guy, I started talking about key.

And then I start in request to be on CNN things like that about, okay, what's the goal here? How do they do IT? As you've listened my pok as recently, there's lot of ways you've take a city you don't have to encircle IT and methodically take IT down.

You can impulsion IT like I had just seen. You can second battle loja punched in the middle, make them fight you. You can are so many ways to take a city.

I I was analyzed in all as this is the way they clear. They're trying to do IT. And I actually had like four courses of action that were close. So to give rush of some credit, I guess they had put years of working into taking IT down from inside the city, like with sabattis eliminating the government.

But you said they had plans for that. They had gone through like course of action planning and picked the final one was speed. surprised? Violence of action overwhelm? No.

they actually implemented .

all three at once OK.

They did all three things. So they had speed. And F, S, B.

Forces inside the city who would like boat running apartment complex is next to the government building, who had were identifying targets to be attacked. They had put some work into the intelligence Operation, which had successful. I wrote this for the warn iocs, the battle of hostem mail.

Which would you do? Like the the first course of action russia wanted was to take IT down from what then, which is because the best way to do is they wanted eliminate, use the sleep cells, and they had a lot of them, and activate the slipper cells to take the city down from within and take the government building. You either kill or captures in sky and I implement at that.

There are some reasons why that didn't work uh to include um again if you I had to learn all this as well but after the two thousand eighteen made on revolution in ukraine, ukraine, you this is when the united states started doing some french partnership. But we also, other people were also helping them. So they reinvented their army.

They reinvent ted, their police. So, you know, this is, again, you think about urban word berry, we think about military on military. But most cities have tens of thousands of armed people, police.

So their police started doing signal's intelligence rates on super cells days before the invasion, who are being activated. And so they did a little amount of works. And that story hasn't been written.

That and I I had you, this is me going back in there and recreating the battle of key. But the ukrainean police had a huge part on taking that push of action away from the russians. The next course of action was the enforceable entry, where they were going to take a bunch of airfields. But there's five airfields in just key alone, massive ones. So the police in the military went out, started parking fire trucks on all the airfields and doing moving things um so that when the russians attack they were bombing empty parking lunch because they had moved things, although the the president had ordered the military not to be out in defensive positions which could potentially have saved them because they had they been out in the know the shock and all that russia launched with the cruise ous nursing blown up so they joined force of entry, which is an amazing story of they they've successfully penetrated a ukrainean airspace, landed over three hundred special forces on one air field about ten miles from the capital lesson to miles. Twenty helicopters specially inserted into this air field in the capital city look like history that IT was going to work except that they ran just regular ukrainians that were a attacking them and they actually took down a couple of helicopters so the russians had a thousand paratroopers on cardio planes in the air headed towards that air fuel they just sees successfully um but because of ukrainian ir force, the special Operations .

guys were going to see the airfield set IT up for landing airborn landing and in these thousand paratroopers were going to jump in and now we have a foot holds and we're moving forward.

They are going to airline. So it's it's an air logged. So joint possible .

entry, you see the air will bring in the heavy get.

And they were just all they had. You was punched in the middle city. They had super cells, like guiding away, like everything. But some ukrainean is is a really amazing story. Like a private, like a finance guy uses, like an old air open system, takes down one helicopter, whether alligators, OK petty tools, which are like our patches, like their attacks in the sky. And this is, again, study in modern war.

I've done that really fascinate of that picture of that russian helicopter down, did more to evolve the people of ukraine than anything else, because they thought they could fight back, like, we can buy back. And they took one, hello, do this one helicopter like. And they still inserted, like three hundred, their best special forces.

And they took their field everything, but they took that one down in, and they started hitting other helicopters. So they turn off the aircraft. S and now you have, in this battle of keep opening moments, you have three hundred of your best navy seals on the ground in enemy territory holding their, but now, but they're cut off, and they are alone.

So literally the they're cn in, I don't like you saw this, but cn, this is mother var as well, is literally on the ground within minutes trying to interview russian special forces. Like what are you doing here? It's like an american.

See a guy who went out the airfield is trying to interview them, which actually happened to me in order in iraq when I iraq the next morning. There's cnf uh, so he's early. Try to interview a russian guy on, what do you doing here? Go away but then they have the president say, we know they're here and they and they launched everybody.

They had, no matter who I was at that airfield and into a country attack, I actually talked to the special forces major who had four hours to kit there. And he was like shooting fish. The gallery was just, there are hundred years on OpenAIrfield w ith n o n othing m ore t han w hat t hey C arried o n t heir b acks, because therefore will drop them in lip. Then they start raining our tiller down.

They they eliminate these three hundred, and then they created the airfield with some very big, articulate, they have to n meter within hours though you have twenty thousand russians coming from dush noble, which I found out where noble wasn't and I really want to I get really close to IT as I I went in the ukraine um there twenty thousand making their way to that air field. So the rest the ukrainian LED, those three hundred basically pulled off the air field because they know there is a massive force and know there's only one in in all of keep. They thought the russians were attacked east, so they did I don't think I don't know.

They think russia had the the colonies to take the capital. But there's only one army gates. So this is mostly like civilians and police and everybody fighting.

And then the vehicles got stuck coming down, alas, noble. But then they have a fight for another, like three weeks for all these mountain forces are trying to make their way into the city. It's a massive city.

I mean, key is your city of three million people. It's an ancient city. Actually, the biggest circle ment in military history happened. There are one thousand and forty one. So we had the german millions of people against in the people the train got their way.

Ukraine has started doing things he's like they blew a damn in within hours of the invasion, uh, which has history I that I didn't know, but they they blew a hold down, which took away an entire access of advances for the the russian forces. I am trying to make away the key. They blew with three hundred bridges when twenty four hours they tell me how the nobility will admit two, because I think some of IT they surely ded and just blew all the bridges.

So no way actually will say like who would blew all the bridges, I don't know, but they blew all the bridges, which made that the tanks, tanks have to get to somewhere. There's only some bridges right? Think like um a bridges too far.

Things like that, like bridges, come really important in big wars. So ukraine, to drop all the bridges, they flooded this whole, they blew a down, flooded the whole region. They went red down.

I talk to grandfathers who, oh, I think this is what red dong got wrong with, the veterans. Ukraine to a conscript. ET used to be a consequent soviet satellites. So most of the adult men have served in the soviet military. So, so I have some fascinating stories, like grandpa with an RPG on top of of his house, taking out russians.

And there were a couple of winning moments in the opening hours of that where you and literally like grandpa, who went out to the air field and custom stuff is given to his read down, put out the veterans. So you have a lot of veteran communities and what they call territory offenders. In an April.

This goes on for a few weeks, and there's a couple moments. In April, the russians early put in comes on like, oh, we didn't want to take all of ukraine. He really changes its entire strategic objectives and polls。 And within twenty four hours though, so you had forty thousand russians around key at this point trying to piece and never we're able to get to the government city.

And an overnight they're gone twenty four hours you got, give them credit, they know how to run. So they they executed a textbook, withdraw under fire and actually follow their path only up to as closing. No, boy, I wanted to get, uh, which was still too close.

That was April. Now, because I I had had this experience of going into words to study. I this was the biggest, most decisive urban battle as I had achieved the strategic goals for both sides.

So the one side failed. One side was set saving ukraine had keep fAllen. We would probably not be talking about the ukraine war right now because the russian, the over.

So I wanted to get in there and study IT. So I I took, I took a flight to pull and walk across the border, want to keep, and started interviewing the commanders who had defended the city. But I think I still think is one of the most battles of modern history, because they achieved this.

Of course, the work, the work continued because putin himself said, that wasn't my goal. My biologic goals are these four districts in eastern ukraine that he wants. So he, within two problem, we drew them all back in the bell room to russia and then read, deploy them a couple month later into eastern ukraine.

But he was defeated on for you in April, trying to one or two. But I went in to recreate the battle keep. So this again was the progression of my research of going into war zone.

What are still going on? Um I went back to ukraine four times til really in the october seven, trying to recreate the like, doing all the first ten interviews with all the commanders and civilians and others that were at the piddle moment. So web fascinating, not not a historian, but trying to write applied history as how do you recreate who writes what happened in the battle and how do you do? That has been really fast.

In these of case studies, you can do IT through historical knowledge. But if you're doing IT through first hane knowledge, we had to figure out what were the key moments in the battle of key, like the the airfield hostel. But there's another one, another battle, whether russians actually had formed the river after all the bridges were blown.

And IT was like one company of ukrainian collection of people that kept the russians from actually penetrated into the city. So I I went back four times recruiting in getting all the interviews with the the generals to the soldiers at those moments to recreate what happened at that battle. I was also doing interviews with the the battle.

Mary open, if you don't know that story were three thousand or less is like, it's like earth or mopy. Three thousand soldiers hold off twenty thousand russians for over eighty days using the steel factory in underground. Most of them said you were captured, the eventually they are.

And but some of them are released doing interviews of recreating that battle, which is, from an urban warfare history, very significant. What from a Operational perspective, how they held down those twenty thousand russians so they couldn't like redeploy the capital or redeploy this other city, how important that urban bottle was in the overall war? Well.

what let's start with key was anything that surprised about key from an urban morpher like lesson learned where you hadn't really fun of that or maybe some new technology or new tactics that you saw a lot?

yeah. so. One, so there's so many elements. One is just the history of the of the, of the land, learning that this was key updates. Russia, where Kevin roose, the city is like a fortas city, is built there along the river for a certain reason.

And all the battles that have happened for the city really looking at even in one thousand nine hundred and forty one, the biggest circle ment where does the battle focus on IT focuses on the east, the western side, the city, uh along the river that they actually blew the dam for in Christa marie t. The ukraine, an who defended key in twenty twenty two fell in. We were two trenches at times, and we're back into the same trenches, finding at almost the same locations.

So I learned a lot about the city. But there is also an interesting technology that the ukrainian deployed that I had no idea about to. I got their code delta.

So the kronion had like their version of like the um dark or something like that. They had created this computer system, the integrated sensors, everything from drone cameras to bank cameras to everything they had visited before the war. So in the battle of key, like, I didn't understand how just three thousand that tell my military people, are there just three thousand, not even a brigade?

How are they always in the right place at the right time?

Yes, so that is because of delta. So they ukrainians, although I could watch first war i've ever known, I could watch live youtube from key during the about what I was and and we we all saw the video is like highway cameras catching russian and all the stuff.

But I didn't know that ukrainian side, this system called delta um which was integrating all these centers so they knew exactly where the russians were and and basically had an eye in the sky. They actually ordered during the battle they ordered one hundred thousand dollar cameras. I know this like amazon or whatever, and got them into keep during the battle.

This is between february in April twenty twenty two, and then put them up on the highrises so so they could they knew where the russians were at all times. They only had one the time of our tilly. So there's a bunch of examples of there's even example that I tell. We're grammar in my I tell this story because it's really example of a surprise out on the outskirts of ukraine. There was a grandma who woke up in solo russian convoys at outside her house.

The grandma picks up her phone and calls calls IT in and I go called to who the ukrainians took um uh basically like this government APP called dear that they had which was like Carried your passport, your driver sizes, everything and with again, this is all under attack, transformed IT to report enemy so grandma takes out her camera or phone is to P P button the report enemy IT goes to a an entire fusions cell observer ilian that they had set up dear, the the delta system is able to validate that information in the action of tb to drone over to IT so this this computer system called delta gave them and all seen eye allow them to use a very small force but also the defensive properties of you're blocking everything, blowing all the bridges is blowing the dams. Buying yourself time because the russian is only had like certain five days supplies as well. And the logistical knew the potty mile conboy going back in the bell rules and attack he was being an attacked.

Um so that aspect of the delta system was really surprising. I'd actually in my urban workers studies heard of, I had, I think about smart cities on my podcast, about the idea you could tap into all the cameras also, like this was in real time, and they had a artillery APP as well, so they could integrate this all cni, which they had no shortage of people wanted to help, right? So they had, like, that's all my question.

Like what, how did you use this? Like they set up all these fusion centers and all, they cut the city up in the pie and put people out there. You are a drone Operator.

They told you, you gona give us your feet, or we're going to, E, W, make us so you can apply IT. They did all this was like, in a week, and they had this all seen. I, so, like the russian is in perspective, had little chance of surprise, right? Surprise is still everything in war, if I can.

They created this all C N. I. Then they like that battle of that. I told you the machine where they had that breakthrough russian onta IT was only they knew they needed to get there. If not there, there was all going to lost um .

one of their early reports coming in was about the a lot of the senior officers in the russian military getting killed and IT you know for me, I deducted that. Okay, why are there senior military ary leaders up on the front lines? Because there are some massive amount of micro management going on and you know some centralized command certainly causing problems. Is that is that what you found as well when you debriefed?

absolutely. So there's that really plays out a little bit later when they start using signals intelligence on there's a reason why the russians also relied on the cell phone network for their communication. They just wished out their comments with there's a lot of friends of mines like the russian military experts this is.

But that absolutely there. The russians don't have an now commission of core, right is a very officer driven, which is, we all know, as a weakness in third system. They also had done a reorganization of their bataan tactical groups where they had less entry from an urban, more perfect structure that really played out as well.

Like you can have a convoy, but if you don't have the inventory to protect the convoy, you where's armor, whatever. Then they found out really quickly that the changes they had made with war pursue to the test IT, put their logistics to the test. And like the what those they they were in that problem.

And chess too, they did they did interesting, which which is from a historic not on my history, but from my researcher, like we have lessons that we've learned and just we learned and we learned so same, same. But yeah, the officers and in you, after the battle of key ukraine started becoming very effective at targeting senior officers and senior commands with the limited capabilities like drones and things like that, that play out. But IT ah it's a definitely a weakness in the russian system.

But russia also, especially within the american like i'm the urban works guys like i'm studying like key mario poo book mood. So they have a they have a human wave tactic to where they are, all just sent human waves at the defenders to discover worries that and then use artillery to flatten wherever they are. And they're still doing that today on the battlefield. So that's another aspect of their weaknesses that started to play out in what they didn't have in cave that you've adJusting and had other places like when they had the battle back mood.

How quickly did IT become apparent the level of brutality that was going to be happening on like the front line scenario here? Because, I mean, i've seen, you know, like every other, i've seen the videos, the pictures, the reports of just savaging, uh, happening. How quickly that could initiated was at a result of frustration over time. Was IT a something that came immediately or did IT show up as things progressed? Or digress?

I should say, yeah, there's a bit of events in the beginning that really, of course, I was even in the battle, my apple, where they, the new ukrainians who couldn't get out of the city were trapped in the city. There's an event where they are in a theater re in my ole at six hundred women and children, and they wrote that the letters children in russian on the outside and giant letters outside the theatre, and the russians dropped like multiple hundreds pound bombs and killed them all, is one of the first signs of you're not gone of all the rules.

And then, of course, at the wind, the russians pull out in April twenty two, the massacre butcher is discovered where they just massacred red hundreds of civilians, over hundred civilians, where they tied their hands behind the back, on the back of the head. Some video cameras of that IT became really early on, recognizable that there is a lot of dehumanization that the russian had in in themselves about who the quinion people were, what rules they were, weren't going to follow in war. That savages was seen immediately in key, because that was my research, but it's all throughout.

But some of the systematic aspects of IT too, like the back, that which is problematic. Now we're going to talk about later, i'm sure, with israel. But russia starts stealing the children of the areas that they conquer and sending them back in the russia.

So ukrainean babies, like thousands of them, they're taking back into russia and giving them to russian parents. There's there's actually an icc c warned for putin and his the female that helps them do this, not an application for warn, an actual warned. I was issued in twenty twenty two because he was validate that he was doing this. So the the savaged is there one hundred percent, but also hard for people to understand the scale of this war like and again going there like on IT um unless I walk some of the ground, even within a city alone, the entire front line getting people to understand the geography in the scale of this mean the ukrainean military went from like a hundred thousand to a million within a year and that's going to cause a lot of problems on the battlefield and in in the country when you try to build a military under war. So there's lots of part about the geography in the scale of this that I was just born to most observers of war in general.

So speaking to the scale of this, one of the things that's been debated a lot is the number of casualties on both sides. What what are you thinking?

What does that look like? You has been a nursing, how it's, I understand. So wears a contest of will.

This is why, again, even in the battle of cave, IT was about time. IT wasn't about killing IT on both sides. IT was about the ability to get supplies in there.

So I understand the information Operation is part of this, where ukraine, like other countries like sun zoos, maxims on the strategies to to figure enemy, are still present today. Number one, defeat. Defeat in me without infighting, defeat this strategy. Number two, defeat his allies.

So while the reasons of ukraine hides its casual mbs, because of what I would say to the rest of the world on how's a goal, basically, the third one is defeat the enemy's military and interacting for the urban worker guy. The fourth one is, don't attack, beat, besides cities based, do IT at the last, last cause, those maximum still apply. So in ukraine is casey numbers.

I've seen reports I have and i've been there um and I know especially as they were continued into some of y's very nutritional battles like black mood and others where there's just trying to hold the line that tens of thousands are dying. I try to believe this goes to what we will see later on. Who do you believe? right? So the ukrainians aren't put them out, but like the british united to put out what rushes es are, I do believe it's a factor like five to one five because you russia doesn't care about their numbers and they're kreme ian them or they're not coming home that it's last test method like thousand plus russian death.

But to be honest, I don't have the both sides number. It's a lot, of course, but I know I also understand why they cause now you have people saying what we just want us to stop. Too many people have lost their lives in this battle, which is almost like the chAmber land in the the churchill argument, like when is survival become a questionable like like that was the option.

The ukrainians got asked the question, which was unique to me traveling in the world, one just to feel that, and I I never thought, felt that in my own appointment is going into a country that's under attack of, like an existent al attack in a country can either mobilize and resist that or what they thought, the the russian, I thought that ukrainians welcome the russians and I didn't, but that was a very unique feeling that I had when I went into ukraine in April. Or is actually may um is that unified aspect of we don't want we want to survive, we don't want to be russian um we can talk about in israel as well. We have people now arguing that that that the numbers, that this quantitative number means whether they should continue to to fight to be free.

And like, what's the solution here in war? Understanding the history of war, where a reason isn't always the number one is human. If IT was just numbers, I call this like the advocate spalls like what they have more troops, they have more article and they have more industrial base.

Like it's a few time to resist. So are you saying give up, which is what, as you know, a churchill was based with? Like, doesn't making any sense to resist at our filter. Like, yes, freedom had makes a lot of sense.

And I felt that in all the queening population when I visited, there's, of course, these strategies to this and maintaining fifty plus countries as your allies is, actually, is ukraine one of its primary strategies to win the wars if you maintain your allies? So that number is problematic for them. But course is, in the new tens and hundreds of thousands.

Yeah, one thing that I found about us, and is this thing started, was no wars, a test of wills. And I believe that when your country gets invaded and you're defending your homeland, your will is going to be stronger than someone that's trying to, you know, take your property and you know moving into your homeland.

It's you know this is why vietnam, afghanistan, iraq like, hey and this, where I thought you're actually going was like, you know, you're going you're looking at the war. You're going to leave at some point you're going to leave. And worse cases where they went, cool, i'll go back home.

I'll go back to corrao and live my life. The people in ukraine don't have that option. If they lose, they're to be subjective to this imposing force. And therefore there the much more willing to make sacrifice because their willing going to be stronger.

Now that being said, there are definitely cases throughout history where you people get conquered in a certain point they say, ah, you know what, I was going to fight and you know, you never know this could have happened to churchill. Churchill was not going to back down. But how many people in how many cities could have been bomb? How many brits could have been killed before? Churchill said, you know what, we're going to make a deal, or we're going to cease to exist.

Or his attitude might have been, well, we would rather seize to exist, then succumbed this, uh, tyrannical ail failure. But this is this is the thing that we don't always calculate very well. And i've you moto form me talk about this before. But you know, in eat after the eyes drink eyeblink valley battle, we killed something like a thousand of their or two thousand of their people and they killed one hundred and fifty five of hours. And our generals and political leaders looked at each other and said, yeah, see, we're going to win because we can kill more of them than they kind of us.

And what we didn't realize at that time was they were more than willing to make this sacrifice, and and we were not in every every casualty that we had was the travels y in a nightmare, and that who would hurt our soul as a nation. And every casually that they had, every death that they had was moving them towards Victory. So that's what I feel about ukraine right now.

Is ukraine the the will of the ukrainian people? This is where they live. This is their home. And they are not going to be subjected by anyone else. And they are going to keep fighting for as long as .

they possible can so I agree with everything you just said um when I was teaching us in west point is that though the will to fight this is cause is no words to contests of will to help you anyway to do you're bidding basically but he also had the paradoxal trinity.

That is not just the will the people, is the will of the government and is the will the military so which this is a triangle so you could have all the will resist you want if you don't have the military to do IT or your military won't do IT or other incapable, or they, they, they, they do a military coup and they they go with the other side if your government doesn't have the will to continue. Like churchill, he went, pull the people nothing. So it's a, it's a contest of wills between these three of attics and even back from ancient warfare IT is both a situation as like in the country resisting, but it's also in an international contest so this is your example, right?

Of course we all know um we we won every battle, but we are statistically to be the viewer on because the american population lost the will to sacrifice americanize for those interest even they believe in the domino theory all this stop each war has to be looked at through the lids of that triangle of the people, the government in the military within themselves and the enemies. But again, going back to sun zoo, you're one of the greatest assets in any worse, your allies. So yes, if the americans had not joined churchill in the fight, then they wouldn't play out that way, right? So this is so yes, the people can want to resist all they want.

They had to have some means. And then that's why, you know, this is about what i've love, and I love my, my could I learned something every day about studying noted history is understanding the wife of whatever IT is, the depth in the context and the ukraine since the context of IT is is IT has a coalition of democracy helping IT. But it's it's not asking about the fight force for the me.

And we can talk about you in the beginning. I was kind of vocal on this like we were starting with like we will give you four pieces of artistry to fight a war and now is we have given billions and and we can talk about what that means of yeah if you're amErica first and military draw down how we give them our stockpiles. We buy a new stuff for making our military Better.

We know this is our greatest to the competitor. According to them, there are pennies on dollar to reduce them. But in in the beginning, we were ukraine. I had a fight for itself.

Now is actually, when my visits does the battle of key, like nobody helped them turn the battle, keep ukrainians defeated russians in the border of, keep with some your stuff that I could never thought about if I was on the ground. Um IT is about your the White of your allies. So this is where, especially in the interconnected world, they were really good on information of warfare, ukrainian war, on projecting this.

But IT really mattered in U. S, B. A russian brutality. It's really come into effect on how they maintain, like ukrainian moral high ground. There's a more high ground in fighting for your freedom.

And I can ever be you like you lose the will of your allies and things based on the action you're doing. So you, yes, you have say, thank you for the four artillery. Ece, I could use more.

But IT IT plays into this, your political al nature, all war is politics by other means, is other quote. So in every context, and i'm studying even a battle, I to understand the political context of, why did the president til ukrainean they couldn't be? They couldn't defend the city.

That was crazy, right? Why would did you say that? Because he thought I would crush you, make the economy crash like much would in in aggravate the russians, and then they would attack.

Like, there are many reasons to IT. This is the unique news of studying as you do war is there is human decisions that aren't necessarily rational, but there there is reason, but there is also chance probability. This is the great profits of the last three years.

I can tell you how this is going to go. Of course, this person's gone to lose the, they're bleeding White. Like, do you know anything about war? There is a lot of uncertainty save.

you know anything about words that we don't know anything about words.

right? We have really good record of getting wrong, especially predictions.

Yeah, this one's definitely going to be hard to predict to see where this thing ends up.

right? I have been in hours study. This really hard to follow war, right? So IT follow a day to day, every action on the tackle, the strategic.

I get a lot of questions about predicting, but I could never have predicted that you would have a tony sereno type of dude who has a private military company that's an army, make a run from moscow. And that's what happened. Nobody could have predicted that and they tried to rationalize and away.

But that's an example of the uncertainty abroad. You don't we don't know what's going to happen a month from now in russia. I mean, what their system IT isn't as firm as people believe with the older gorge.

And all this stuff in the military seems really powerful. But they're asking for iran to give them stuff, north korea to give them stuff in the they give people like three days of training, and they empty their entire prisons. Jo, fifty thousand plus russians murder, rapist, like pay you want to go fight, and then after you don't fighting, your free.

And they dumped their entire prisons in the ukraine. And then some of them maxie survived, although most of them died, like in the battle, but most some of them survived in open. Russia has a lot of domestic problem because of these freed criminals.

How long do they have to fight for? Know that detail.

Yeah, like six much or something. I don't know what the exact guarantee to which population was, just like go fight new game, like six months. But they use them as human ways, especially in black mood.

This is in the black. You in the the bog is the private military company. But if you know all these these people that are in my world that predict like they when I know what's going to happen, the earth like you can call this .

one thing that i've said a few times, as I expected and continue to expect to see more insurgency type activity, gorilla warfare from the ukrainians as opposed to pitch battles.

Yeah, and you did see that that's i've got to that from elan. Elan must believe that if they speak russian, maybe there they want to be the best again. There's the history, the langer.

Is that not true? Like there be more your rebellion in the occupy parties and go there is, I mean, there is like grandmas given russian poison bread. And this stuff that happened in hair song, uh, where a lot of inside was able to take you down, is just a the scale issue and a means issue.

A, I wrote the story of a for time magazines about the which you should, yeah you probably guy, this vietnam style helicopter resupplied ed, that they do in the marrie opal. We have three thousand guys that are resistance in a flew seven suicide aircraft we supplies into the the city. It's an amazing story.

Yes, you but there's a lot of history there are especially when you're talking about in the done bus because that war started two thousand eleven um and the and the the political worker that russia does like I didn't crime me where IT takes out and inserts russia friendly political leader so this is why it's also hard like one ukraine I has gone on for so long that there's a lot com confirmation bias like john warfare that's the future political warfare and certain cy rebellion it's all there is such a big war like I that's IT. That's IT. I was right.

I was right. IT is happen here. But there is a each area, even with the ukraine. This thing is huge. There are different demographics, different situation in different resistance groups in there.

And you said you kept going back to ukraine until october seventh, right? And so how was that looked from your perspective? How many times have you gone to israel? How many times have you gone to gaza? And what's going on over there?

yeah. So I when i'd been studying in israel for a long time, where because .

there are some of the most significant urban battles of modern times in these, where I get yeah and very unique.

there's so much uniqueness to but because I was doing I was doing international working group on on self training or worry, I having conferences in israel about tunnel work, are going to hezb tunnels and north and israel that they discovered in homos tunnels before this war. But yeah there, but there are unique military too.

So there are a military that can task organized for the environments in which they, where most other multi ies like us in new year s military extradition ary, when the world is designed for a lot of scenario, the why I keep going back to israel, that they they had some forces that were specifically trained for a contested urban warfare and had stop that we don't have, like the deny bulldozer, which is like the three story told bulldogs, they learn to in a contested urban warfare. When somebody has had time to prepare for deep fends, you have to have something that can take a hit from whatever is waiting for you. And they had this like three story told that got to drive like bulldozer with a remote control that is like a it's, it's a armament.

Bulldozer is like three stories told that rolled down the street can take a hit from anything. And they had learned in two thousand and two that that was very effective and integrated into combined arms. I have tank behind IT, an ARM formation. But they also have won the world's best urban working training sites and say, alem Better than anything, we have the tunnel I was going there.

But I also written case studies on the battle to a city, genuine and others because it's like you said, the genesis of like the close quarters battle comes from israel and some other i'd been Better with their magatha the their version of delta like the imam and others study in israel. So I had a lot of connections. October seven happened.

I of course, was watching IT. Um i've been there three times six october seven been into gaza each time because my unique connections and that experience that I had when I asked the question like I want to understand how you're mobilizing for these urban chAllenges. I had enough connections to be able to do that.

So as early as december, I was on the ground. But I was also not just studying what they were doing, what I hope we get to talk about, about dealing with the gaza war, the war against tomas and gaza. But I also wanted to study october sm of attacks.

And I was a parked as I did so I had watched ed the video. If you've seen you have en I think I could try help you um get see that. But I had seen that in november in new york city. I to explain what .

the video is for people don't know .

so unique to hamas um hamas made IT a very perfect one to record the atrocities of october seven. So they all were go prosed. They actually had manuals um of how to wear the go to properly and they want to to record all their acts.

So on october seventh went over four thousand hamas in regular person and civilians pending ted israel's border and twenty different locations and move forward into the disabilities areas and locked them down and started massacre in everybody they recorded IT all um so israel took home masses videos, but also combine that with like um vehicle dash camps and home C C T V S and recreated locations. And this forty five minute video is of harasses carnage on october seven. Uh and it's just a small like it's some of the sites, some of the sites.

And I I wash this in november and i've seen a lot, right and I now travelled the world IT mess me up and actually was really admit before I saw that like why won't you release to show the world what happened on that day? I mean, it's ninety percent hamas videos like the captured themselves to include be head people and you awful things they did after watching and I realize do not release this. It's it's the way it's done and not like i'm sure you have to.

I i'm seen enough carnage and I think Q, T, V. And i've seen thanks. But the way they did this with having different perspectives is almost put you at the spot of the whatever IT is as happening.

And there's one thing that really mess me up where I was hama dinner, one of the the villages, all these villages, the border, and the dad wakes up with what's going on, because they have like thirty seconds to jup in the bomb, because how much on october seven the morning have launched four thousand rockets. So the entire country thought I was a Normal homage, rocky attack, although the scale was behind anything they say. So they all jumped into bomb shelters.

If you live in israel, is requirement when you build a house to have a bomb shelter, because hamas and has another long sumi rockets. So in this video, the forty five minute video is one worth's dad i'm my father um is in his underway he grabs is two sons and he runs out to the bomb shelter because they got in the erthe rockets were coming IT just happened to be seconds before the actual homos terrorists were in his village. And they enter his courtesy, the gade there.

And you see him fall out of the because of the, they're not like safe rooms are just shelters, sometimes in the backwards, sometimes in the house. And you see him fall out and you see the two kids come out there, all ripped with strap on and think is a good one in there. The terrorists take them back into the house.

In the house of is full equip with C, C, T, V. camera. And the two kids are put on the couch, and you can tell, like, they're bleeding and they're talking to each other about, I can't see, where's dad? Dad's dad.

And then I hear one of these kids make this moon that i've heard enemy make on the battle field. The spirit like deep, like area, death, moni call IT and the hooky is standing over them laughing. And this is the scene that people are talking about.

He he laughed at them, tells them to shut up, and then goes the fridge and drinks a coke over the top of them. For some reason, that savages really a that moment like really hit me. But it's everything I like the the the glee that they they have and then according themselves how happy they are about what they're doing was like something i'd never seen is like they had released thousands of jerey dom's in the israel. But that's what that video is, is forty five ministers of seeing act from the other music festival to all the different villages with all these different perspectives, and from the heading es to your awful thanks. And who is that?

The israeli government that compiled this? Yes, and it's the israeli government that has decided not to release IT correct? And they think the reason for not releasing IT is because it's too brutal.

Um there's a few reasons i've never asked. I've been interviewed now everybody because i've my trips I interviewed prime minister, the head of the military like mini politicians everything um no is ever said like john, this is a reason we we at least I know many of the reason. One is respect for the the people that are in IT.

It's traumatizing IT looks like calls us traumas for people that watch IT and you have like get help some people that have washed IT. And it's the savage of this. So almost like you're fulfill the terrorist interest because even the nazis try to hide what they do.

所以 unique that they wanted this。 The air and you can go you can go to like places like october seven 点 com， and you can see a lot of the video, just not with israeli kind of the dash world cameras. And in stuff you can see most of hamas videos are out there, the savage of IT. So I think there's many reasons why they they have them. They tried to show that as many groups as as possible, and they want to control of IT, because you are most for filling the terrorist interest of spreading IT.

And further, much to, you know, go through such extreme efforts of training their people and how to wear these cameras that can capture all this savaging. What's the purpose behind that? why? why? Why are they doing that?

So it's um so the video, so the books are they Carry so they are the videos s why they do is because of some people have lost a definition of terrorism.

What terrorism is meant the definition of terrorism, basically violence on civilians for the purpose of political goals and instead fear and others and um but I think IT was a accusation of of the radicalization like they wanted when there is the videos of where they're really calling back to their mothers and gosain, I just killed ten views on your problem, me, that level of realization within them as they wanted to spread to all other jihadist, their successes. So I think that was a big part of IT in part of their their warped form a undammed al islamic g. Holism, which is what he says.

So I think that some, although I never asked them that some of the the reasons, but IT wasn't just like where the global, the books actually explained, which as a, you know, as some who rode a mini man, you everything IT was really, really that he said stuff like take the tired out of israel's cars, like their tires on fire and roll them into the into their houses so that IT will burn and suffocate them at the same time. For somewhere reason, burning was really big to them in this this plan. They also add drugs that they took to kind of nothing.

They needed IT to almost d human eyes. The fighters, if they were having problems, which was actually what happened in the mumbai attacks as well, they had food with them to stay longer. They had um now we can get into what what is IT was a terrorist attack, which I personally don't think IT is.

I think that was an invasion because if you add up the four thousand plus individuals who penetrated twenty different locations, the thousands of rockets, you get over a division of forces and they plan to take train the whole train. They had maps to go to television in rusalem. This was innovation ion. And they planned forward like kasba did in the north for other people to join them um and they had all this intelligence on all the different communities and y'd locked them down from a military lanes like I couldn't have even a ranger will taught you many of those lessons were there. They set up ambushes on any road that LED into southern israel um to ambush any security personal that would come in that direction.

They had intern information on every village because you know each one of these villages are have their own security personnel and nakata and they have armories where the weapons are which is a new is an evolution of the the gun policy um so the terrorists would enter the village immediately cut that off and put in snipers above that armory and take out anybody that won't toward IT to lock IT down. The military plane of this invasion was was intense and there are so many stories that are starting to come the light, but they wanted the rest of their jia to see what they were doing in this. I've gone three .

thought of my brain where I was thinking that one of the reasons why they wanted this to be recorded and seen was because they wanted a strong reaction from israel. And like, that's why they did these things in such a honest way. But also, no, i'm thinking about IT. What you just said really landed was like, this is the actualization of someone that has been told their whole life that the jews are demonic bees that have oppressed everyone who killed all of our family members, and they've held us down for centuries, and we must destroy them and kill them.

And if you get told that your whole life well, then when you get a go through and you get the opportunity to do IT, you want to record and you want to share IT which is really disturbing um the psychological of bringing of these kids tell me a little bit about the background about growing up um under homos. What does that due to me mentally? What is that due to someone mentally?

Yeah um I can't I mean, i'm sure you we could find more systematic radical zone in the world if he talk about like some other companies, but I would be really hard for such a intense amount of radicalization at birth. So the time of palestinian under homos, right, which is this group proceed power in two thousand five thousand two thousand eight um and then starts implementing this syria in radicalization um and there lost the histories do but IT starts at birth and really isn't somebody who is um basically has seen actions of israeli and then feels that resentment of their actions there is all kinds of documentation of nearly uh basic a version of homes sesame story with characters discussing that the how the jews are less than human and our goal is to kill them that's the the ultimate form of basically what the religion intelligence to so that dehumanization and interest to slaughter israelis, which that you really a part of dehumanization is only way you can explain some of the things in the the rape in the middle ation and the burning and the beheading that happens on that day that was a lot of jeffrey domar, but that was started at birth. And you can see from the textbooks that start from the first time they can read, to want to not just hate the jewish people, but to kill them and destroy this really state.

This is, again, going back to all these misinformed people on the american campuses that believe that this is a resistance, and they just want their own stay, and they want self determination and Better things, for they have never said those things. Their entire education, the choice, everything is about the death of the juice around the world. And israel not existing. They even had these things called summer camps in gaza. Summer camps were, and I thought the numbers weren't right now, to keep looking like a hundred thousand kids of summer going through camps on how to use weapons for the sole purpose and then tactics, techniques and procedures to slaughter israelis and kill israelis and they have the sense that you like almost entered like the model is the death of the jews and like that level radicalization get you to um a deep hatred that isn't even like passed on from some action that happened is is programmed in to achieve your ultimate goal on life which is crazy like they're taught that that their goal on life is to have children to be murdered while killing you to purfled this philosophical ical ideal of the caliph which is the racing of the which people.

Then on top of that, you there in an environment where when you look outside of your house and you're a little kid and you've been told that the jews are terrible, you look out, and what do you see? Oh, you see an israeli with a weapon. In imposing control over you and your family and all of your people.

So you end up with this h self fulfilling profession because everyone you look around, well, you know, my teacher just told me that the jews are bad. And then guess what, one of your friends walked too close to the to to some security station. Get shot.

Well, share enough. The jews are bad. And this is, and just go, that goes on, you know? Now, this is the, this is the people that live there in gaza. And you know, because what two thousand and five, two thousand six is when host takes control there. So these are the Young adults, and they've been raised this way since birth.

And I know you, I was talking before we hit record, and I brought up, you know, being a fifteen or thirteen year old in you know nazi germany in thousand and forty four, like you are just that's what you think. That's what that's the way you, not what you believe. You mentioned the imperial japanese, you know, looking at the emperor as if he was god.

And because that's the only thing you know and then I mentioned actually before we hit record, I I knew a guy that was was raising a cult and he thought when he left the cold, he believed at the half of him believed, well, when I believe i'm going to get struck down by god, he believed that and he had a little hole, he had a little, uh, room for era and that he had seen the outside world and he was like, this doesn't some things didn't match up. But here, if you're in gaza, the things match up because you're living, you don't have food, you don't have water, you, the things match up with what you're being told and how you're living and just reinforces this idea that the jews are bad, they're pressing you. And the only proper way to fulfill your destiny life is to kill as many of them as you can and marter yourself.

Yeah there's a lot of the the accusation is more than just the education, but IT is there the books in the religion in the sand and everything but you're write it's if that's what you live in in of this population, you know, got this strip is a strip, you know, twenty five miles long, five to seven miles.

Why is biggest area with two point two million people living into IT with massive cities, but eighty plus percent of the population lives well below global standards of property for palpable water, food, everything? And they're taught that that because of israel, although since hua seize power thousand five and started launching rocket at israel, that the leadership of promos are like the ones that live in guitar billionaire, the ones that live in like those are no longer around, were millionaires. The the subjective of the people is needed to fulfill the hatred that is in doctorate.

Like you said, self propac's validated everything they learn about. Doesn't matter if the head of hamas gets saved in a surgery to rid him of his cancer like that, that doesn't mattered. The what they view of the outside world to include anybody, not them, but especially for the U.

S. People, is validated in what they're living in in the cause of that which is unfortunately even in in some western society that this is all israel fault, right? The the whole idea of apart I the idea of black ade, all of this and revisionism story is all israel for that all they want is it's a little side by side as good neighbors.

No, that they've never said that. They only ever said they want to kill all the use in a race. Israel shit exist and that's what they teach and radicalizing the population. But that element of them living in poverty, while there are spending billions of dollars to develop military capability to destroy israel, that there's a brain that and everything is built into IT, the on ra refugee system, everything is meant to create this idea, that they are the opprest and the idea of just, I want to break away this, I want to make a good life. I don't want that everything is done to to ensure that that maintains that cycle of hatred .

continues aimed at israel, not aimed at, lets say, for this since egypt, where egypt is right there on the border and that border is completely shut down and you're not allowed to be a palestinian living in gaza, if you want to a escape from there, you can go to egypt.

No, and they used to be, must you don't understand you again, the history that people all I want, they construct own narrative by taking a bit of the history they want reward in them, or whatever. There used to be gazed on the egypt side of gaza. The fifty thousand and rock our city actually split on the other side in egypt one day, said, now I don't want them there.

And they basically force believe, told them the elderly valencay where to go. And in since the war, which I have been as an urban warfare special looking at the history of anything similar, others, very few, i've never seen a situation where the the cities, the civilians that don't, the non combat, the ones that don't want to fight, have nowhere to get out of the main combat areas. Because egypt ser gate on october seven, not one refugee.

And if he may, knows the geography of that area, the sign I desert in egypt, there's a massive area, the ability for egypt to open the border and create a turn, your temporary displaced person camp, like there has been in mini urban battles, tent cities, non your G, S. And getting there without the threat of attack ah would have saved thousands of lives. Nobody talks about IT.

Nobody points a finger. Egypt, because they have self termination if they want to, and they did not. One refugee coming in, allah za, and they have their history of why with the muslim brotherhood and their two is political situation are now.

But I i've found that really unique today. Nobody talks about egypt like you in in the broader scale, like the black ky, you can have a black of there's another country with a bord IT goes in, out, in, controls the borders, not a block aid. And if there are thousands of goths that are coming out of gaza, which there were over twenty thousands, dozens coming out of gaza to work in israel, not really a black ade. And if things are getting in hundreds of trucks a day and being searched for weapons, then is there are lots of reasons there, but then people reconstruct this narrative. Getting back to, you know, the the ratification doesn't point the finger at their situation to to to egypt.

Obviously not the .

only bad guys there, right? So again, a study in war on tober. seven.

Thomas anton, estonians, to be very clear, thousands. So there are waves. And I broke down in the article. I rote about the attack. There are waves of nuke ba, which are the homicide of forces that came in and hang gliders penetrated the walls, came in one of the attack points, set up the ambushes.

Then there were thousands of palestinians who said, got the notice that the attack of the juice was ongoing, and they cross crossed into as well. But homos is not the only evil terrorist group in gaza either. They have the palace, an islamic jha lions in other names of real people who have the same radical ideal that the whole go on life to include, to be modeled is to kill juice.

So what have you seen um as far as now, the Operations comments in gaza and the clearance of gaza looks like a health cape over there. What's that been and you've been in gaza since october seven. You've been on patrol and seen .

what's going on. Yeah I so I went there first in december. So I watched that video on november. I went there in december. I I walk many locations, which actually was the realization like even wash video had no clue of the scale of the autopsied attack in the military planning of IT and how they locked IT down. And where were the police, where were the so I was studying in from the kind of an urban warfare terrorist attack perspective.

But then I was also mean, this is the biggest urban centric war, you could say, since what we're d two, just on the scale of IT, but that we've known just by the complexity of the urban drain in the mission. Um I went there in december to to start understanding how israel was going to move forward to achieve this three goals. And I have I interviewed now, who I interviewed the chief of staff, like from the like we talk about from the strategic goal.

What are the goals? right? So after the auto or seven, they had a repel, the enemy. The enemy took two hundred fifty hostages, men, women, children, holcus, survivors, american citizens back in to because there's a lot of history there the theory of they wanted this car attack there's a lot of history there to taking hostages and the head of homos um that recently died yeah I somewhere spent twenty years in israeli prisons trying to figure out where israel's greate weaknesses were.

One of them being its a reliance on allies in the international community, that the deep entire cement tin like you got, he planned this out for years and the taking of hostages being the same I mean, that guy was there was A A in israeli in CEO surgeon that was kidnapped and held for five years galoshe elite and israel exchange a thousand prisoners to get one guy back. And during that five years, from the special forces of perspective, they never knew where he was in the density of gaza. So a thousand plus people in yaya, the major minor being one of them.

So after twenty seventh you had your two hundred eighty hostages be taking, like really um eight month old babies, everything the rockets did not still. So I think some people discount this on like what is the realm of the timeline of this? You had the hosted, just immediate being taken.

Then you had four thousand rockets launched at first few hours of october seventh, and thousands launched every day, then on now down to zero or one or two or three a day. But nobody knew they had to mass this level of a rocket arsenal, but the thirteen thousand plus rockets launched out of gaza despite the Operation. So israel declared war in accordance with U.

N. charter. Our complete one, like a sut depends war with three goals. And those haven't changed since since autobath, although hesba attacked on autobath, which does back to and see this army attacking in the north as well.

The goals were to return to hostages in the two and fifty one two destroy. And this is where people i've tried to argue that they're not doing to destroy homos and by destroyed, not from a ideal perspective, but destroyers and remove them from the military and political power. So it's more now listening.

I kind of a get frustrate on people thinking that mosses account insurances. Gaza since two thousand and five, when israel lept in in two thousand eight. Hamas, there's no, that's not israel.

The israel left IT after two thousand eight after rocket to put up the war. IT was a defacto statelet t like an area. And the goal was to remove hoosh from political power and remove their military capabilities.

And then lastly is, you will prevent them gathas from ever threatening israel, again, like with military capabilities. So those three goals were the start of IT. Now how did they array to do that is why I went in december to look at some of the bigger fights and how they started in the north.

So homos was over forty thousand fighters. But the numbers don't really matters, because IT, but was a military. So I had twenty four light in pentridge italians array across the gaza trip, which includes twenty four cities, ten, over one hundred thousand, as the cities, over six hundred thousand.

Rop is three hundred thousand, about major urban areas, which I think people miss. And this is where i've tried to come up with the urban working experiences, that you have two hundred pretty hostages. Rocket its imminent out of gaza with an army array in that territory.

Prepare for the defeat. So one of the reasons that the two hundred and sixteen seventeen battle muscles, the biggest since war were two, because I is had two years to prepare in, prepare IT in very good built differences. The second battle of lusa in two thousand, and force that created battle for the entire iraq war entire time. We're there. I know remedy was big, but the second battle, flusher, and because they were given nine months of defensive prep, so in gaza, they had fifteen years to prepare the ground and actually built the cities with the for the purpose of ward.

So this, and their budget was billions unlimited from some perspectives.

Yes, this is where you, at one point there were two hundred. And then i've got to like people like, why did israel knew this? Why didn't do something about IT? Like the fact that there were two hundred at one point, two hundred seamed trucks a day going into gaza, a build hospital's schools and everything.

But there were a lot of highrises is going up because in the fifteen years they built the largest underground network ever seen in war, they originally thought was three hundred. And as they started to interact with, you know, there's over four hundred miles, so bigger than london metro, the new york city metro, sol metro, under the cities of gaza, and unique to military, because china and north amErica have lots of tone to thousands of miles. They called the great wall underground in china, but is not built under civilians, but the sole purpose of using the civilians as human sacrifice to achieve their political goal.

Because he must never, like you said, how must knew I couldn't defeat the idea. But in its history, in israel's history, that's not ever the goal. The goal is to attack, will stand the counter attack and then get the world to call them the stock.

So this is where I said, even in december, how much is only goes to survive if IT survives the war? Politically they want, because israel set the goal of removing them from power, removing their military capability. But you have twenty four battles of hamas, so you have like viBrant e and you have twenty four britons are rate across the the gaza trip, with the main part in northern gaza, with all geographical.

Each patient has their own arsenal of rockets and cashes in the houses and the phone tunnel network to support a delayed defense. I can't find in history where any military has faced those variables because you have the hostages that leads a time like this moments do a siege, although doing a siege. E in modern wars IT would be hard to do legally because you can't cut water, food, everything from um so you have the host st thing, you have the the underground network.

So you you not going na reach that many of them um they removed them from power aspects of IT to you have to physically do IT because israel when the gaza two thousand eight, two thousand fourteen, two thousand twenty one with very limited goals of just reducing the rocket supply that was imminent out of out of gaza to do to do this though is more enough to like a invasion of iraq, invasion of the ghanian, invasion of panama were two style. I'm going to remove this, like even the invasion of key, like you got ta remove the power and then you have to take away this military capability for the next power to do again. So israel waited for.

So after october eighth, israel, of course, mobilized, because very small military only has two serving divisions, about one hundred plus thousand kind in the field. And IT mobilized three hundred thousand in the first couple of weeks. IT also gave notifications for northern gaza to move below the central part.

And I think you are talking about this one of your podcast as well, which is pretty much the standard of removing civilians from the population, right? You know what we did in the second battle of fu ja, drop fires, you keep notifying drop more flyers. Uh, israel did that in the which I found a really interesting that they did that.

Like could they are RAID um four divisions of forces waiting to go in. They're doing you basically propety ory like they're engaging rockets that are imminent out the rocket locations. They know where head words are. They're engaging with that bombing campaign that we could talk about, but they haven't launched the full, full invasion to remove from mushroom power.

They give all the no fictions and what the world as you can do, that you can do what back with to me out of combat s so I move them out of the the most risk place and identified A A road for them to go. Anything that anybody is never done. They deny the area to so they could not go to. So israel identified this beach area on the south western portion of gaza.

And one reasons they picked IT, is this the only place in all of gaza without military hamas infrastructure underneath that because it's it's too Sandy, but these four hundred miles of tunnels and they only knew this, some of this now from discovering, and I was in one in december, there was a multimillion dollar in asian tunnel that ran from gaza city to a hundred metres outside israel. Gaza's border had um had power violation. Um communication, lighting, everything, uh you could now you know you could based into northern and gaza in a tunnel and come out in southern garden that how many tunnels is like.

I never seen anything like and I went in and baby in a kunis in july in the central gaza with a greatness with that. The thing that split north N G. Um nobody thought that they that that I was a barrier, like a natural barrier, is used to be a river and out the river basin that is in south, but that was like a nature berry.

But homos actually figured out how to dig miles long tunnels underneath that river basin to connect northern gaza, the southern gaza. So if you're a military though, like, okay, what are the options here to return to hostages? Get the rocket stuff, remove this entry from power.

Um this is what I teaching that course on your division level attacks so when I went there in december and why why do you I keep going back in the gaza? I'm trying to end lies like what are the types of forms of maneuvre and Operations are doing? And I did that and how they they did some very innovative things to not fight the way the enemy wanted them to fight. So how much has built its defense of lines in a circle with the water to their back, thinking that OK the direction of enemy israel come this way? So they, especially in the northern gaza, which was a strong point of the the brigade, they had developed the defensive belt and the pinch a belt to include the tunnel networkers that went between the buildings in a kind of a question circle.

So israel quested an attack, a frontal attack, you know they're not marines, they didn't a front to attack that they went around IT in in like to include commanders coming out of the sea um and came from behind that defensive built they also move forward and secured the hospital, which is historical, the second battle flush if you know that battle we the hospital was the primary objective because of they're very strong information with her aspects. But I I found myself as I was going in there, I saw the misinformation happening about what israel was doing, that they were being in discriminate, that they were being excessive and especially um they were being deported onate because proportion and were this is because of the social media, because of to include every boy's idea s about israel and entire sematech m um everyway became an expert in the law war and what proportion I was, and people thought, well, twelve hundred israelis were much occurred on october seven. So that means you can not only kill twelve, and there can only be twelve hundred deaths on the other side has nothing to do proportionately.

So I did I started writing and talking a lot about even what is proportionality but as I went in, I also because I because I study urban workers for a living. I also do a lot of work with the united nations um with human write groups that since our battles I mean the united nations entire council of human rights said we did like eighty three cases of war crimes in the second battle of volusia to include carpet bombing targeting cities, an other stuff like it's not new for these groups to say these things um even in ukraine, M C international said that you IT was illegal for ukraine. I milk to be in the cities of defending because IT puts them in the risk um so this is I had not work. I had spoken at the united nations.

There's A A giant a initiative in united nations to ban the use of any bomb in any urban area called the expressive weapons in populated areas in like a hundred countries have signed this, that if there's an urban war, we're going to not use really big bombs because it's really destructive to the cities, which sounds good in theory but as to include a lot of matter there is is um if you understand the fortune venture out of war or two and all the things that we say we wouldn't do that has now been taken by human rights groups to say there should be no war and there should be no use of supposed ve weapons and urbanus clear because the destroyed cities, but IT actually drives warfare in the urban areas because it's a place where somebody who wants political power goes so you can touch me. And this is what what we've seen masses is the really the cultivation of all my studies of um you the laws of war and what our protective population protect your sides right hospital schools um medical staff like all these are protected under the laws of war. And hamas built cities with that in mind.

So every hospital, gaza, hamas used in some way for military purposes. IT built these tunnels. I used to say they built their tunnels underneath all the schools and hospitals and houses. Now, after being sussing my library, they built the tunnel. Then put a school or a mask on top of IT, as in this call, lafite. They have been studying in the r wars and israel new situation for years, and they built an entire environment with the sole purpose of getting this world to do what they had, which is loses mine, or what the laws are.

What the rammer possible is it's only one battle I don't know you know this there's only one battle in in all of military history that I can find that has any the parallels of the war and gaza, which is really hard for people understand like um people have tried to compare like a romantic or other battles to the war and gaza like the there are twenty four cities in gaza. Gaza city itself is over six hundred thousand and people which which kind texture you can prepare in into there are five thousand in all remedy there are three thousand. And fallujah, there's only five thousand.

And mummy hundred, yeah. Like they estimate around five thousand enemy fighters, yeah. So what? What are you gotten? Gaza.

two million, two million people here. And the fighters of over forty thousand, just of the orizaba name enemy. Because this is the the thing you into gaza IT might not be homosapien tack you, but it's it's a combat and i've had to teach people like what is a combatant and noncombatant because you can be this is a part of law word nobody understands and maybe I didn't know as much like you can if you are named military that i've wage or against, I can kill you whether you are, you don't have to be holding the weapon.

There's a barricks full of enemies, fighter sleeping of the other military that I can destroy that barrels while they're sleeping. That's the law of work. And you could be a civilian.

And you can also like the grammar, which is the example I tried to use that I told you about in ukraine. We pick up the phone and called in in me and called in an air strike. Basically while he was using the phone, he was a bat. You could have been killed. So civilians turn and there are rules like if SHE stops doing, then she's not but he keeps doing her everyday, then SHE can be killed.

Um you don't have to be Carrying a weapon as a civilian to be um protection in the hostilities but if you are protecting in the hospital as you lose your protections, there's only one battle that I have any dissimilarities of the hostage situation, the defense of the enemy, which I think people really discount on the ramm possibly again, if the enemy has had time to prepare, it's going to look different than other situations where the enemy did even in like the battle keep right was there wasn't a defensive position a sign so the one thousand and forty five battle of manilla is a Young that I bound and I that has any deliberate ties so we were defeated in the Philippines. We retreated, but we left thousands of pronouns are war and civilians. When we regain power, we hit the beaches in the Philippines.

And master said, go to manila for our people because they are over three thousand american and british prisons of war and attorneys. So civilians being held in the city of manila, the japanese rich had not planned a defender, but eventually the navy japanese generals, the navy ado guys are arguing in one of them decides they're going to defend IT. They use seventeen thousand japanese navy personnel.

They think the ships in the harbor, navy stuff. But if I tried to mess up the harbor, and I think the ships, and they take the neighed guns off the ships and put them on line, and they, and four months they build, this depends of position around manilla moarta hits the beach and ninety provis go to manila for our people um it's a city of a million. There are seventy thousand offenders who have barricaded rows.

They have dug tunnels that they have sewards. They have some of the aspects of the the military depends on infrastructure. Master said, no air power.

So he didn't want the americans to destroy the city to say IT. So he said, no air power. So the thirty seven thousand americans and some Philippine attacked the city. We reached our three thousand lus prisoner war, but it's a bloody black by black fire in one hundred thousand civilians die. I've got to into these numbers game though in my work were like that.

That's horrible, right? Well, just like I can tell you, the the number of seven cases in the bottle of the zoo was ten thousand when they're only five thousand fighters, but we actually don't know how many fighters died in one hundred thousand and died in manila. The jane's killed both those.

The japanese were because they too didn't care about the population, were slaughtering and stacking them in the bottom of the houses. They were. They also started them so that there would be a humAnitary crisis but time americans got there.

Um but I think the unique aspect of mcCarter didn't want the city to shore so he didn't use the air power which as you know as a mult person means that like in my strong point podcast that if you I can teach you how to hold a building for weeks, if IT has a sub training in this iron clad made, you can hold. And we had this like installing en grad with the poplock housewares. I can hold a single building for weeks against divisional attack, though.

So if you don't have the ability to hit the enemy once, you know where is that? It's going to cause the fight. That's why when I spoke, the united like this is a bad.

You're gone to create really awful urban war. If you say you can't use municipality, you know where the enemy is to engage in in my target that is in the category of her medical. So that's the munich.

I can give you the battle of soul, right? Hackworth career war. Most people know about the inchon landing, right? You know about that.

It's like one of the greatest manuvring of military history. They hit the beaches of in shine in the where they head IT soul. They had a literate soul, guess using charge again mcCarter. So again, he says, no air power. Take the city is called the barrel of the barriers because the the north korean set up barriers and they they have a very protracted fight um there's only seven thousand defenders we attacked without you, over fifteen thousand american forces.

And there is, as I wanted to help people understand, because this some people say what and as per geneva commissions, when we were wooden corby cities, right? We were corporate by dress and trying to to influence the will, the people in their government to to stop resisting well, souls post second genetic commissions. And IT was that in mictla said, no where power, no observed virus he we had to released as americans started dying, there is a zero record of how many civilians died in that button.

Most lots of the city was destroyed. Um all the japanese just like a manilla. I know that the the the japanese and manilla all died all seventeen thousand because they killed themselves.

There's no record of how many in my died. There's no record of how many civilians died. But it's a huge that we rage the the U.

N. Flag over over a soul. And he was a great Victory. But nobody was in one of the reasons because the south koreans were killing people they thought were north korean collaborators.

There's two million to die in the korean war but there actually that's another example of a very when an enemy takes the city um how hard do this to take a back and but where the ideal proportionality in this, where everybody started asking me what's the civilian catton ratio I have never heard of but and i've been study urban more for ten years, I never heard that question asked and that's what we're right now. We have national leaders of government saying, yeah, there is an a combat ratio is all wrong. I need to stop.

Like, are they doing everything that they can to prevent similar casualties? So this is the other thing that was created after awards, actually, after the k war, really IT into the afghan's war, something called the in harm medication steps. And you know um micro stal and others started doing basically changes in our we and what you could do.

And these were viewed as sudan mitigation steps and became a terminology that I started to get involved with in urban warfare. Some of those are like evacuated cities before you go, things like that. Uh, israel did that right? I told you.

But then they started doing things that nobody does. I israel calls buildings before they strike them and tells anybody is in them that, hey, we're about the like this building. I knew that that I didn't think they were doing in this war.

They're done IT in previous wars, but they were doing IT in november and december. They were, they called the roof knocking for the color, but in the building till them all, like an hour of black. We get ready, destruct this building for its military purposes.

People don't leave in their drop. Now you are basically low year disposer on the roof and knock on the roof. And do they were doing that? And I knew that before I went. But when I went there in february, I learned that they were doing things that no military ever done um they were using they had handed out their maps.

So like R G R G that we use, israel started that started to be the players that they are dropping where the G R G that they could communicate to civilians, to tell this the civilians and homes where they would be every day, and to stay with that area. So instead of you saying, okay, everybody, the city needs a back way, they cut IT up in the G, R G that OK today. We can be Operated area two hundred please back with this area and stay away from this area.

We've never done that. And they started also when this is where I think I was tell you about this guy, that I really want to tell you about a general golf who in israeli nav sea little tell the thirteen guy who they made in division commander, just their system, who is always trying to think ahead of the enemy. And I didn't bet with him on his division into cartons, and he was doing things like encircling ly in neighborhood, because at first, israel, to evacuate the cities, moves south of the water, gas and move into a moon sty human zone.

And you, they had limited capabilities to, but they they did that evacuation, but recently thinking, you know that much of a MaaS, or how use or something moved with them there they were, been told where to avoid some statistic. Of course, there was rough battles. Income unis.

Um, not only did he do what's called a call out, you know, I call out this, but he did IT like city, what? So he launched four brigade and a penetration in the immediate itor overnight surrounded a neighbor od of a ten fifty thousand. When they woke up, they got the notice to evacuate through these israeli I positions.

And israel use facial recognition to pick out all of mos. They were walking out like nuke by level fighters. He's also the guy. The evolution of the tunnel work for what I keep going back, as well as to this tunnel problem nobody ever faced. Nobody is ever faced you a tunnel at this debt.

So the tunnel was run from underneath buildings to two hundred p underground at around a hundred p and around there is no military munition that reason going to reach that. Yeah, we drop them over in afghanistan in two thousand seventeen. But that was on a tunnel complex in a cave network, the most even a two thousand.

I'm going to get you about thirty underground four hundred miles of these as this really move forward in northern gaza with they found over six at this point there over six thousand chefs. Um it's it's it's just uni maginness. Even when I go there it's like I I would be walking on top of tunnels that they hadn't found yet and then they've found them like an hour later, not understanding that I was an enemy tunnel underneath me.

But the way that they approached the tunnel, because this is about clearing determined training isn't it's about also finding the supplies and removing IT from those areas that move everybody, the safety, they still get a clear the areas. And they faced the same thing that we did write the idea, house born bonds, the snipers. Snipers are little little, but the tunnels was a problem, said that I just didn't even know.

I study tunnel work here originally. They were you being very deliberate about IT like they find the shaft secure IT. They lost some soldiers even to the booby trapped around the shaves um but by time they did this, the tunnel, the people in the tunnel, although they tried flooding, they actually brought in five industrial level pumps and were pumping seawater and fresh water into the tunnels, taking that that would help destroy, because egypt t has assess doing that, destroying a must crossroad tunnels by flooding them didn't work.

How great didn't work? Because if you've ever seen one, these are multi million dollar complexes and actually there's really na report uh in twenty and twenty one, I was actually there when there is an another. Humes was launching rocket and IT was Operating guarding the walls that israel was striking the tonic complex and collapse the bunch.

But between that twenty and twenty one in october, seven ham, hundreds thousand dollars to insert blast doors in the tunnels to mitigate the blast, that if you hit a tunnel, the blast, or ripple through the tune, they I I somewhere himself authorized hundreds of thousand of dollars to put more blast doors in many the tunnels. So this factors in when they started flooding is that concrete tubes, so in some of them are are made with um um drainage in them. So they they in one battle in the battle of Better at noon, they spent two weeks um flood you specially massive industrial level um pump into this in in two weeks he started to hit the surface.

And actually that's when I started to have fight on the ground. There were haven't weeks long battles with people, never rarely seen people because the way each bade and bataan and company have their own tunnel network. So IT filled up, but they are just drain back out.

They're not they're not made of Sandy stuff that's gna collapse in on IT. And if it's if it's not a steady like if you laterally driven, there's some theory that if you later in medicining into the tunnel had like a constant supply, maybe IT worked IT unlikely IT just would all drain out. But anyway, they were still seeing the initial the enemy in these tunnels, so they would get there clearing like they segment like a week we would do.

The minor objectives is in a certain area, you can, I like this, you going to clear any my personnel, you're going to search IT. And they found things like things that they just didn't know where possible. I would talk about the ones are going on, but they found deep buried rocket production size.

So now this is the myth that all this was brought in. No, no, they were. They had the chemicals delays everything to build rockets like a middle industrial base in tunnels one hundred meters underground.

Complete workshops, which requires advanced olaine everything. As they were finding this, that they would always, there always one step behind the enemy. So come as was doing a delayed deepen SE, who would fight for long as you would move through its tunnel, activate all the booby traps and then leave.

They were still there was still an issue of now you have to spend all that time dealing with the tunnel. And what you do by the tunnel is different than what you do about tunnel. There is a hostage in IT that's always in this from the go.

Where are the houses is a factor in every action to include what to do about the tunnel, right? And israel is only military in the world, just that has actually major organza focused on tunnel. Walk her again while I was going there.

They have their version of tunnel ATS. We call Whites so the briga level engineers, such forces, engineer force that train, man, equip for underground warfare. But nobody was pair for the scale.

They quickly ran on our resources, and they were seeding the tunnels to the enemy. IT was general golf st. In communities when I was with them, who, as an guess, these these things differently, he really would do like your boy's udal loop. He would do close trinity.

I have a picture of him like drawn list stop out each time I visit him, like trying to think as because the enemy was adapting as well so he like the casually numbers like enemy deployed basically um fight in a war with T, V. Reporter reporting is different than they're being millions of centres in the environment. So every action is recorded on cell phone.

And how much did really good job on projecting that to the world and giving the mom this is there's I don't know if you saw this event. There's one example where a bomb goes off near a hospital. You know about one dal in in hamas mediately leaves.

said the bomb hit the hospital. There is hundreds of people.

in essence civilians in everybody over five hundred deaths. Israel bond, the hospital even I was like but um in is waited about hour just to make sure like did something happen like an action and somebody drops something they won't suppose to everything and they come to find out that was actually the palestine islamic .

jaa who had had a rocket once .

a rocket and when store and when stray and landing in the parking lot of the hospital and created like a grenade size hole um and but hamas gaza health man Thomas had formed before that was all reveal had had a news conference outside the hospital with all the doctors they empty, the more of all the people laid them out and actually had people holding babies um did A A national broadcast of that they had just been bombed and hundreds of people were debt uh so homos was again doing that as israel trying to clear the drain.

Um golf was always talking through that. That's why he's doing his big coal. She's trying to out manu over the enemy whatever the enemy strategy is to win in the tunnel he also said, like i'm seeding the initiative, but every time they find a tunnel will be booby traps and I took all that time to deal with IT and the enemy was doing the environment so he developed a way to enter the tunnels um and not enter them to clear them, to use them as manual cords and I told him like, sorry, i've never seen this where you have a force manuvring on the surface like a brigade. And then you have a force maneuvre underground.

flanking.

subterranean banking, subtraction or simultaneous manual and I like like sometimes I ask question, like next question, like, how did I actually talk to the gay command hood on the surprise? Like how did you communicate with the guy? Didn't the control at the division level? But they were entering the tunnels before her mos knew they were in the tunnels and they became an a cap advancing this where they could they could enter a tunnel and know from the tunnel construction what type of tunnel is.

So whether it's a brigade tunnel connecting or a command and control tunnel, and they were entering the tunnel in a aneugh in on mos before. So IT IT went from being an obstacle. Most million view tunnels as like an obstacle to deal with. Don't enter IT all cause I think I heard you talk about you to see you IT like what I can go in there um to where it's now there tunnel is not .

always using them as a tool. Yeah from the pictures IT looks like much of gaza devastate ted. At this point, how much longer is this Operation going to take place?

Yeah, a great question. So at this point, as we're talking, how much is notaries is no longer has notary gave a building, as in it's all this twenty four britons, although this rumor one, but is still effective. And by effective meaning, can do there a sign military mission, right?

Destroy, in our definition, come like our doctor means. Unable to do a design mission sometimes is the person like p percent to rowel. I just can't attack or defend a hamas.

The military is destroyed, his leadership gone, and its ability, the whole ground in the fendi is gone. So now it's like the shadow gruel of force. How long other people when I went this in for forever, affairs like about israel, is achieving its goals.

How long would you take? And does israel need to destroy all the tunnels to win? One of the change is also discovered, was how to destroy tunnel. You talk about a two mile long tunnel.

They have some liquid explosive ves that they they have that they mix the compound, they put IT in the ground, but they they tried the flooding didn't works. Now they basic string and I take mines along the the entire linked to a tunnel and use dead cord and and blow IT of that way. If you try to do that, all for her miles is not enough tt.

In the world. They also figured out there's different types of tunnels or strategic tunnels that give you like manua all over the entire gaza strip or a cross border tunnel, the prioritising the tunnels just to find all the tunnels. And I was in july in the natural quarter that that trip that they're trying to split the two to to make the problem bigger.

And within there are thousands of shafts and tunnels still left in that quarter. But your question is about the war. How long would that take to achieve israel alternate? Because this is, this is where I could be account.

And socially, although I real against has been an insurgent force until there is a new power that they are the defector power, the even in the shadows right now, how long will I take israel to create a security environment? Like you ve said with when we talk about iraq, you had a bring IT down where the are partners could maintain stability and would be great if the partner wasn't somebody whose goal was to destroy you. Right now, israel has you is still searching for the the hostage.

So if you took all three of his goals, how long is going to to take, which is a very political complex issue for israel? How long will take to get the hostages back? There's one hundred one as we're speaking still up in there. So how long would you take us is a different question right now as we're speaking.

Israel has five divisions in southern eleven on because they had this other Terry army with over all two hundred thousand rockets attacks in the daily to where had eighty two hundred thousand civilians since october seventh that had to be evicted from northern euro. How there's only two divisions in gaza for the last like six months since rapper Operation begin. How long would you take two divisions to clear, can't hold and to build something new.

They're still doing targeted rage against Thomas reminds. So these are how much members that are trying to reform. They have less rockets. I have less tunnels, have less ammunition.

Ans, I don't want to give a number because we we're talking about prediction is going to take a long time, a long time when they have five divisions trying to push husband back from this border in the north, and only essentially two divisions, although they just got some war with. One is divisions just by a chance, contact, which is insane. IT will take them a long time. But there is a lot of positive on like the ceiling of the border, like this is something that we never even achieved, not in vietnam, in iraq, afghanistan. To cut off the enemy from resupply a their ability is seal that israel.

egypt.

yeah the egypt, gaza border, whose they did in, again, you get a point of thing. Or egypt, like there is over one hundred cross border tunnels here, run in a highway, ammunitions and everything else in the homes since forever. And i've seed that and y've put in a new, 嗯， the actual interesting thing about the the wall between israel and gazes that at work.

The chAllenge before IT was almost the imagination was cross border tiling underneath the war. They developed the a deep center technology that there is. There was none course.

The enemy didn't need any on october seven because he drove bold over internal, but IT did work. So now they are going to build that along the egypt gaza border, a deep, penetrating thing. And in maybe there's some agreements with egypt ces on security, but just that step alone means less hope to the enemy. So this war, only in jo, the enemy beliefs, they don't have a chance to win.

Is there any. Partner force, palestinian and group, a palestinian tribal leader that is ready to step up that has the wasa the respect to say, hey, we're actually gone to turn the small piece of meditation, ian beach front property, into an amazing place and we're going to for a positive future.

Yeah, no, basically not. yes. This is the idea of the alan authority, which is the group of the G A smart.

The west bank coup are also terrors who have this massive welfare program that pays people they mother themselves called the payer. Sly program, this organza actually pays those who committed the october seven attack and died their families mother fine money. So, uh, there is nobody waiting.

There is is just ideas about international. A, like an arab coalition of people that would come in to help provide the security force. A, there are ideas you could even what israel is doing is like the inbound strategy, although it's there's a man power problem when they're in the war right now, seven different enemies attacking them.

And you have this. And there is five divisions. They only use four divisions when they entered five divisions. And in two divisions, this is, these are, they don't have a military.

These are people in from the economy 啊。 There's an an idea to make gaza into smaller areas when finding local leaders. And there happened a few.

Or you're during this war who has said i'll be that person I I don't want hama you this is the what you've talked about, the the stability Operation, the post conflict reconciliation, all that happens if you find another power. But right now, homos is killing body's people who says, pal authority. Israel knows that their equally is bad, then that too, how much killed to take power with? Spot on the housing authority.

So the answer is no. But if is really it's on israel to create a security environment, which is something could form like if you are passed in right now, if you know you raise your hand, you're going to get get killed and this instance to do IT security for the popular security for the populist. So israel is working on um in real he's ideas of islands, and there are even international hospitals within these islands.

So these ideas are like there's a turkish hospitals. So could turkey come in with A A forced to create the environment which a local leadership could lead? So it's not like they're not learning the lessons of bar past, but it's like look at the variables that they have, alternative they have in the moment to do.

What if they don't reduce harasses ideal that they can win again, then nobody y's going to sign up to be the the counter homos. Uh, and you're right. And I listen, one of your pocket, where there is now even more vocal voices within the palace, in people or the goths that are respectful to homos. We're doing this to them. That is has started to grow as well.

That's positive.

That's a positive. Um but there's you know ships say what you have to do debate accusation. So um I have a really good article um headline of a general ison hours after war or two it's actually like now is and how says will take pity years to reeducate the ancient and within the article as if you everything i'll give germany the ability wage war again the crazy like drink promise our is that people think that the ratification one can be done fast or two can be done without there being another power if you don't find another power. This is the taliban, right? The taliban went to, went to pakistan, waited twenty years, came back to teg Victory.

well. appreciated. Look, i'm going to go plug your podcast in urban war for a poddar ast. You have a bunch of really nolte able people that you bring on. You're obviously knowledgeable yourself and you actually know what I appreciate is you have you go there, you've on the ground, you interact so you know what's happening, what else you work on, what else do we need to get up to speed here?

Write a new book. So I have two new books. I have one um and so I writing a studying in history is really, really hot um and I have some tours like general matter and others.

So I have a case study project where I going back and it's been really helpful recently as I like you think this happened during that battle like that. So i'm working through historical battles in creating case studies, and they're my the model Warners to website as well, my website of stalling grad or tone, a first battle fluke, second battle fluter. Battle the zoo, what they going back and you takes sometimes. I took us a year. We wrote the two thousand and seventeen battle mori don't know that one .

how long with these case studies the coming words is the completed .

document and under five thousand words. So we're trying to summary because some people have petition span. Um so there's a five thousand version for the website, but we're going rino book where we're going to take a lot of these case today, two ones that there isn't like the battle more IT took us a year because there is no other information out there.

But there was a massive battles on the phillipines against that was very destructive. I mean, effect destroyed ninety percent of the city of over two hundred thousand is uninhabitable. But IT wasn't like the Philippines weren't trying to protect IT. Writing these case studies and we'll be one overall book in the case studies in the book will be ten thousand, so the website five thousand, but the book will be these bigger version of IT.

That's interesting is like a battle like that. Like you think all the americans are going into rope flush, the americans are going into the remote. They don't care really if that building gets blown up or not.

You know, it's just they don't care. Well, first of all, we do care. But even like when you're talking about the Philippines and the Philippine forces going in, of course, they don't want to destroy the infrastructure that that that is part of their country. Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's really freaking .

hard there is next, I call the precision paradox after somebody else called like in the idea that you you should only use pressure guide ammunitions in urban workers is A A policy to pay and we actually in the battle of so there is that concept of, okay, you were only going to help the iraqi military with precision ammunitions.

We fired so many how fire missile that we ran out of our tech supply, and we still destroyed like eighty percent of western muscle, because the enemy just went from one building to the neck so you could precisely destroy IT one building at the time. So I had the case study book and then I have at the other book, which is twenty times I almost died, uh which i've had mostly writing. I just don't have the title lock down but is some interesting events, both in milton now that I travel on the war zones that I have been in some interesting chances to almost die. But there's a little bit of lesson there.

Yeah, yeah. Not the, not the safest line to work right now.

H, it's relative, right to sell your safety relative. But echo, I think it's dangerous. I don't. Cy, I don't lose and I don't beer, my in my beers.

Echo, you any questions?

Yeah, well, this is kind of a long time. And before the guy that .

you fought in .

the ally come back to the last podcast, he was big. Was he big big guy that to buy haymakers by them in my balls? And bigger yeah ah because like if is a bigger, you kind of think he wouldn't be doing the biding in the thumbs stuff yes yeah because usually like like the smaller guy is just busting out all there weapons do that can stuff. The lesson there is I didn't need to be there that night.

And people can find you on the inter webs. You're at john Spencer online dot com. You on twitter action, instagram at penser guard uh facebook john penser, youtube James penser, three, two, eight and linked in john's penser.

That's where people can find you, follow you, learn from you and get updates from you. Join any final thoughts? No.

I mean, I think the so I am a student of people. There's experts and who we call experts. I learned something every day. My pocket is actually might meet learning and doing research. So my herbal warfare project, yes, you whether some who was in a battle or you have some expert in some element like concrete or something like that, i'm learning. Uh, so join me along .

the process. Well, thanks for join us today. thanks. You're personal some of these lessons that you have learned, thanks your service. You sacrifice the army and thanks for what you continue to do today to capture even more lodge and pass IT on so people don't have to relearn those lessons.

Appreciate a problem. Thanks, jack. Thanks.

jacko. And with that, john spca has left the building. Good to hear from somebody who has had boots on the ground and can tell you with Better assessment rather than just what you see on the news.

So appreciate him coming in a lot, going on lot. You know it's interesting um there's things we could do in the world, right? We can build, we can flourish, we could destroy, at least on a personal level.

I recommend you flourish. I recommend you build. I recommend jaco fuel check IT out jocose el. We got protein, we got energy drinks, we got hydration, we've got everything that you need, joint warfare, super cruel things that are going to make you healthy, smarter, stronger, faster and just a Better person.

So go to joke of fuel dot com, or you can go to walmart, you can go to war, vitamin chop, G N C, military commercials, aes that handford dashers in maryland, wake firm shop right? Hb, down in texas, mayor, up in the midwest, wegen hartel lifetime fitness shield s and small games were, we're getting a bunch of doors. If you got a digital to gym, you got a cross.

Gm, you got a power lifting gym, you got any kind of gym, email, gf sales a jocose eld 到 com。 Also, we got we got wearing caro practically o practicing ing. Um I Jerry, I think got us into some hair sallads bra all the enough.

Yeah sure. So we're in there. Uh, jock of fuel dot com. Check IT out at the stuff that you need also, if you need judge to stop.

We didn't talk about jug very much with jon chat on the way out. Judicious, an important part of everything. Change you to get IT yourself the best Judith uniform origin USA dot com.

Get yourself american made genes. Origin USA dot com. Get yourself the clothing that you wear on your body.

Origin USA dot com. Check IT out american made no child labor, no slave labor built by freedom. Or in USA 点 com store called store.

we can get your shirt had two ties, some shorts on there, representing discipline equals freedom and good and other notions of similar, you know, dynamics.

You just write down and how .

much total with that .

sentence is coming?

Ah there is short locker. If you don't know, this is a subscription scene. You get a new shirt every month, new design every month, design little bit more creative. You know all of IT is that .

doc store dot com. Also you need stake. Check out colorado craft beef dot com, check out primal beef dot com, and give yourself the goodness, the tasty steak.

The best stake called craft beef dark com callot craft beef that com, primal beef 点 com is the best。 Go get some awesome people, awesome businesses, awesome stake. Described the podcast, described a joke underground jack on the ground dot com.

Also, we got youtube. We got psychological warfare. We got flip side campus dog on, decode a mire, making cool stuff to hang on your wall books.

You heard some of the books today connected soldiers by john sponsor, understanding urban warfare by john Spencer. He's also got the one that you can download. So check, check that one out.

Very cool. Good to have on. Good to have on tap. Case goes down.

Want to be ready to defend your urban location also, i've writing a bunch of books. You can check those out. Check out the kids books again.

We've got to start johnsson were talking about his kids there war your kids. Or again, after he's wearing A T shirt where his own kids war, your code is on the back. So check that out.

Totally legit. War your kids books. We get a movie coming out on that.

You to Chris part. Yeah, I heard great things. Yes, he's in IT. So you might want to be checking that out when IT rolls, miki and the dragons about face by hackers.

Are that reference a couple times the past couple podcast? P extreme moderation economy. We have also have a leadership console, cy, it's called asha. On front, we will teach you and your leaders how to unify together and win. So go to echelon front dot com.

If you ve got a company, you ve got a business, if you've got a team and you need help with your leadership, which you probably do, then checked that out. Also, we have an online training academy to learn how to lead yourself and others through life. Little things, big things, is everything boils down to leadership.

So you need to leadership as a skill. People will want to forget that it's like playing guitar, like legit to you. Just don't be not born ready, play guitar.

That looks something some of us have a natural gift and talent for the gift box. Yes, some of us, but most people, well, even me, I need a little help with the guitar. I need a lessons.

So you can tell me the same thing. leadership. So check out extreme ownership 点 com。 You can learn lessons that will apply to every party your life.

Also, if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families, you want help goals and families, check out mark is mom. mom. Ly, she's got an amazing charity.

organza. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to america's mighty warriors dot work. Also, Michael fink has a great program for veterans, helping them find themselves by losing themselves up in the mountains.

Heroes and horses dot org. And Jimmy may, he is helping seals when they get out of the seal teams to find their next mission and transition into the civilian sector. Check out beyond the brotherhood dot org and if you want to connect with us on the inner webs um john Spencer, you can find him.

John Spencer online dot com. He's on twitter x and instagram at sponsor guard. He's on facebook. John cancer is on youtube. John penser, three twenty eight have got to asking what three twenty eight was?

Yeah, I was wondering .

to my bus linked in john Spencer for us. I am A J alcove. And we are both on social media, on magic willink echo. Is that ecotec just be careful because you can waste in your entire life on that thing. And you're did you get nothing from IT?

Thanks once again to john cancer for your service and your continued service to share lessons of the battle field so that we don't have to make the same mistakes again. Also thanks to all of our military personal out there who fight in urban battles around the globe, a vicious place to fight. And we thank all of you for defending our way of life and also thanks to our police, long enforcement, firefighter's, paramedics, emt dispatches, correction officers, border patrol, secret service as well as all other first responders.

Thanks to you for keeping us safe here at home and everyone else out there. In john's matters, a mini book for urban defense, he explains the six elements of any defense preparation, and by that means, never stop preparing even while you're fighting flexibility. Be ready to change security, protect all your flanks, Operations in depth, that means have multiple layers disruption.

That means break your attackers formations, disrupt what they're doing, disrupt their manuvers cover, move manuvers. We have to manual in urban defense, mass and concentration. That means you need to be ready to prioritizing execute.

And I would add one more thing based on his book, connected soldiers stay connected, not just via communication, not just radio communications, not just work communications, but Foster both social and task cohesion through communication, build relationships. Because a connected team is a strong team on the battle field in business and in life. And that's all i've got for tonight and till next time the eeco and jaco out.