How Trump administration cuts threaten Native Americans
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This is On Point. I'm Debra Becker, in for Meghna Chakrabarty. The Fort Belknap Indian Reservation in northern Montana is rural, really rural. Tessa Hawley lives there. She says things that many Americans take for granted are often hard to come by. We only have a local grocery store, and some of our families live

anywhere from 40 to 50 miles from it. And it's a very small grocery store. We have some conveniences, but it's just simply cannot source the food and the resources, especially the fresh produce.

is almost little to none scarce. Healthcare is also scarce. Many treatments require a three-hour drive one way to Billings, the nearest major city. In 2016, Holly started the Day Eagle Hope Project. That's a nonprofit that provides medical and behavioral healthcare on the reservation.

And recently, she's been running a kind of food bank. She brings in truckloads of meat and produce from western Montana. And Holly says there's a great need for healthy food. Fort Belknap has high rates of diabetes, heart disease, and other chronic illnesses. A lot of these health disparities could be lessened if we had access to fresh fruits and vegetables and healthy protein. And

Even for me, I struggle because oftentimes meals are full of fat, carbs, calories.

And to go to the grocery store to get strawberries, I'm lucky if they're even healthy enough to eat, right? Because by the time they get to us, they're not good. Holly's nonprofit was growing with the help of federal grants that made up the majority of her budget. And then one Friday night last month, she got an email saying,

$750,000 for the next fiscal year? Canceled. Part of the Trump administration's funding cuts for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. I can tell you it caused great pressure

great stress in my life because I was expecting these funds had food on order. I had to call and tell them, by the way, you need to hold on. I can't get the food. I can't bring the food here because I don't have the funds or the money to pay you. And because it was something that literally happened in the middle of the night, I felt

We didn't have a plan and we weren't planning for this. The Trump administration's cuts to the federal workforce and government spending have taken a toll on Indian reservations throughout the country. And even though many of the cuts were reversed or rescinded, that is not yet the case for food banks like the one run by Hawley.

She points out that the federal government has a unique role in supporting Native American tribes and the governments legally mandated to provide some services. Holly was dismayed by a Fox News interview with U.S. Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins, where Rollins said there needs to be reductions in many food assistance programs that are considered, quote, non-essential. It's just like...

When you have the wealth and the greed, you can't see the need. Sorry, it's hard because I'm in it every day. We struggle ourselves. You know, I don't even have a facility, but I'm not going to give up. I'm not going to live in fear.

I'm going to find a way. The USDA did not respond to our request for comment. The Bureau of Indian Affairs says it is committed to upholding federal responsibilities to the tribes and says the Bureau will engage with tribal leaders to help improve efficiency and cut bureaucratic waste.

This hour on Point, we look at federal budget cuts in indigenous communities and why those reductions could be considered breaking centuries-old treaty deals. Joining us first to talk about this is Marionette Pember. She's a national correspondent for ICT News, formerly Indian Country Today. She's also an enrolled member of the Red Cliff of Wisconsin Ojibwe tribe. Mary, welcome to On Point.

Good to be here, Deborah. Thank you. So let's start with what we know about the cuts at this point. And I realize we're talking about a lot of different agencies and tribes, but we want to know how broadly, first, this is affecting Indigenous communities, the cuts and the layoffs, some rescinded, some restored. Where do things stand at the moment, and how would you describe them in broad terms first?

Yes, it's been a real challenge to keep up with the cuts and what's going on in Indian country. Initially, we found that some of the cuts were affecting programs that were covered under these long-time mandated funding that was actually determined under the Indian Self-Determination Act. It's called a 638 Act.

in which tribes will receive their funding in the sort of honoring self-determination. They would receive their funding and then be federal funding and then be able to allocate it accordingly to their needs. And a lot of people were finding, you know, it usually comes in the form of like a drawdown framework

from the federal government and tribes are finding that it was frozen online and there was a period where people were having to lay workers off. We are hearing most recently that that has been restored.

However, Indian Country, we have to remember, runs on grants, on many of these small grants within agencies, like so many little subgroups that the average person, non-Native person, and even Native people have never heard of. For instance, under Health and Human Services, there's SAMHSA, which is, you know, for addiction services. Also, we learned...

That the Institute of Museum and Library Services, I think it's almost been entirely cut by the Trump administration, but that funds tribal libraries and museums and other like rural libraries. I just actually learned that on my mother's reservation, Bad River Ojibwe Reservation in Wisconsin, now the librarian is gone.

So as I said, there just are so many. And the USDA additionally also provides kind of counterintuitively, we wouldn't think of it on first glance, tribal colleges. Many of their programs are often related to food, but then also scholarships for students. So tribal colleges have taken a big hit as well. So...

Essentially, we hear food banks like the one we heard Tessa Holly describe, right? So we're talking about cuts to food, cuts to museums and libraries. Addiction services, you said, are definitely cut and those have not been restored? Right.

You know, we're still, as I said, we're still waiting to see, you know, some of with the kind of wrecking ball of looking to extinguish anything that smacks of DEI. You know, they have come for Indian country, but of course, we aren't a racial class.

We are a political class. So I think that, you know, some of these terms, you know, red flagged, or as one colleague was calling them, the naughty words or the naughty terms. So that at least for the time being, you know, it's looking like these funds are cut. And what about the Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs, right? It's lost dozens of employees. And then there were suggestions that the White House might close some of the agency's offices. What's happening there?

You know, as I said, we haven't nearly heard. It's just unfortunately not really clear. Yeah, so just a lot of uncertainty all the way around. Exactly, exactly. I did see an interview with Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the nation's Health and Human Services Secretary, where he said that the health service in particular would be a priority. The Indian Health Service would be a priority during Trump's second term. I mean, is that reassuring at all when you hear something like that?

Well, somewhat. I mean, he does have sort of a strange affinity for Indian country, and we're not entirely sure from which that stems. But, you know, Indian Health Service doesn't provide, you know, the lion's share of funding for Indian health services. It actually comes from Medicaid.

And, you know, we're looking at a lot of cuts to Medicaid. And Indian country has a special kind of relationship with Medicaid. Much of the billing is done, you know, third-party billing is done through Medicaid. So there's a lot of fear about the sort of impact that that will have. You know, you mentioned tribal colleges and what's happening there. And I just want to go into that a little bit because these cuts in these colleges, I think, are a really unique aspect of all of this. We spoke...

with Ayanna Tanya, who's a student at Haskell Indian Nations University, one of the colleges I believe you're referring to. That's a tribal college in Kansas, right? And she's among those who's suing the federal government over some of these cuts. And we should say there's a foundation called the Haskell Foundation, which is a nonprofit that's supporting the school. And it says that it does expect even more federal cuts.

And the student we spoke with, Anya Tanyan, said that she and other students have been protesting. Let's listen. The first protest we did was in front of the Kansas Capitol building in Topeka. And it was so cold. But, I mean, we toughed it out and we stayed out there and we marched around the whole building and we held up signs and one of them being, you know, honor the treaties.

Because I don't think a lot of people realize that Haskell is just not just a college. I mean, it has this long and yeah, it's a painful history. It was founded as a federal Indian boarding school during that era of assimilation. And over the years, it has transformed into this wonderful tribal college that is federally operated now.

And I wonder, Mary, if you could tell me, you know, what do these federal cuts mean for education like schools at like Haskell Indians Nation University? Yes, you know, it's -- I think people don't realize the role that tribal colleges play not only in tribal communities but in rural America. There are about 37, I think, tribal colleges.

And, you know, they also educate a substantial number of people that are called non-beneficiary students. And those are non-native people that rule citizens who go to tribal colleges for the same reason that Native American people go. It's close to home. It's inexpensive.

And since they're funded by federal dollars, they have to take those people as well. Tribal colleges are really the anchors for these communities. And through there is this very long legislation called the Tribally Controlled

Actually, I can't quite remember the name of it. It's quite a long acronym. Hold that thought, Mary. We'll talk about we'll finish up after a break and you can tell us a little bit more about federal cuts to indigenous communities. We'll continue this in just a moment. I'm Deborah Becker and this is On Point.

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Stick around until the end of this podcast for a field trip to the Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield, Massachusetts. Mary, we were talking about Haskell Indian Nations University and federal cuts and how that's affecting education there. Can you continue explaining that to us?

Yes, as I referred to this really long acronym that names the legislation that requires the federal government to pay to, you know, fund tribal colleges. It has never been funded fully. But as I mentioned, you know, it isn't only...

Native Americans that attend these colleges. There are a number of non-Native people that also attend for the same reasons that Native people do. It's inexpensive and it's close to home. Most people are called non-beneficiary students. And we find that often in these rural areas, you know, tribal colleges can be the anchor for the communities. They provide, you know, a meeting place, a gathering place.

and opportunities for non-traditional students, older students who may be returning to education and so on. And many of those colleges, in addition to the federal funding, receive a number of grants, for instance, from USDA. They may receive scholarships and then also funding for food-related programming. The National Science Foundation provides funds to tribal colleges.

for all kinds of STEM-related sciences. So any of these cuts have a tremendous effect on these colleges. Okay, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of cuts, a lot of potential cuts. I want to shift gears a little bit here and talk about this unique legal situation involving cuts to tribal nations. The U.S. government has signed on

hundreds of treaties with tribes, right? Promising to maintain a level of services. And in this case, the federal government has a treaty and trust obligation, as it's called. So I want to bring in Aaron Payment. He's a member of the tribal council of the Sioux St. Marie tribe of Chippewa Indians. He's former chair of the tribe and also former first vice president of the National Congress of American Indians. And I wonder, Aaron, can you

sort of explain a little bit what this treaty and trust obligation is and what the requirements are for the federal government to provide some of these monies. Absolutely. So first I want to say

The Treaty and Trust Obligation is settled law. That's very important to understand. The 574 tribes across the nation ceded over 2 billion acres of land in exchange for health, education, and social welfare into perpetuity. What we receive is pennies on the dollar of what we exchanged. It's not welfare, even though we do have the worst statistical outcomes in the U.S. Civil Rights Commission Broken Promises Report.

It is not reparations, and it's not because of the poor Indians, but we prepaid in full for every penny that we receive. Unfortunately, we fall into the discretionary category of all of our federal funding, and discretionary is about 38% of the total budget. 62% is mandatory. That includes Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid.

And as my friend Marianne had explained, the funding through Medicaid helps to supplement Indian Health Services. Indian Health Services only reaches 55% of the need for my tribe's service area, which means the vast majority of our members, we don't get any funding, but the Medicaid expansion

And in the exchange under the Affordable Care Act is how we are closing the gap on our need. Unfortunately, that's threatened. And while a lot of members of the Senate and the House are saying that they're not going to touch Medicaid and also or Medicare or Social Security, the proposed measures.

a volume of cuts that they are proposing to come to cannot happen unless you cut into mandatory funding. So there's $880 billion in both the Senate and the House big, beautiful budget blueprint.

So those are huge cuts that are going to impact my tribe. And for my tribe, we received $30 million in Indian Health Services. We're a very large tribe, over 50,000. And our annual funding agreement, third-party revenues, is about $30 million. So half of our health budget is about to be cut. Earlier you were talking about...

you know, kind of the fits and starts with the president will declare something and then see how far it can go with it and get sued and then retrenched back. And, you know, our secretaries of interior and health come out and make these sweeping, very positive statements.

But either they are not in charge or they're misleading because the cuts in the OMB HHS passback, so that's like a draft document to tell all the agencies of what they can ask for. That's proposing $1.4 billion in cuts.

to HHS, Indian Health Service, eliminating SAMHSA, the Tribal Opiate Response Funds, eliminating Head Start, eliminating LIHEAP, Low Energy Heating Assistance. We are in a crisis right now. And so nobody should let their guard down because while they're saying one thing and smiling through it, the reality is the proposed cuts to Indian Country is going to be over probably $2.5 billion or about 30% to 40% cut.

Right. And so let's go back to the treaty and trust obligation. So what does that mean specifically? So there are a lot of people who are concerned about the potential cuts to Medicaid and the budget blueprint and what it says about various...

various social safety net programs, right? But for tribes in particular who are under this agreement with the federal government, the courts have upheld that the feds must provide this. So tell us what that legal requirement is and how this is a bit of a different situation for you and other tribes.

Yeah, so I was born in 1965, so I'm a baby of the great society programs, and I support helping people and lifting people up. But the treaty and trust obligation is different. It is settled law, like I said, the Marshall Trilogy in the early 1800s.

ruled in favor of tribes that there is a legal obligation for the treaties. The treaties exchanged peace and the inviting visitors and those who came here to the land in exchange for the promise for health, education, and social welfare forever. And the courts have ruled consistently over the years, there's been ebbs and flows,

And administrative fiat and also legislative have recognized that. But we're seeing echoes of the past. Just like Andrew Jackson, when the Cherokee Nation won their Supreme Court case and were not supposed to be removed, Andrew Jackson basically said, well, have fun enforcing it. So what we're seeing is with Donald Trump, we're seeing the exact same thing. In one case so far, the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of a

immigration of the person who was illegally removed from the country. And basically the president is saying, okay, well, so what? What's going to happen? And we're very worried about that because he seems to be purposely testing the waters to see how far he can go and how far down the path of an autocratic society.

Most Americans support the treaty and trust obligation once they understand it. And so again, it's not welfare. It's owed to us. We prepaid in full. And a country is only as good as its word. And this country should uphold its legal obligation to its original inhabitants who invited all the others who are immigrants.

I want to say we reached out, On Point reached out to the Department of the Interior, which oversees the Bureau of Indian Affairs. They declined our request for an interview, but they did provide a statement. And in part, that statement says that this is a federal shift in approach.

that will ultimately foster greater self-governance. And the statement goes on to say, quote, Indian Affairs is committed to upholding federal responsibilities to tribal communities. Under President Trump's leadership, we are prioritizing strategic reforms to maximize resources and enhance operational effectiveness across the organization to cut bureaucratic waste and ensure that taxpayer dollars are cut.

spent efficiently. What do you think of that statement? Basically, it's what we've heard from other folks who have defended and talked about the role of the Department of Government Efficiency under Elon Musk, right? That we are going to reduce waste and we are going to make things more efficient. What do you say to that, Erin?

Well, I would say that they must have some really good messaging people and they might even be American Indian because it sounds like they're getting it right in the way they're stating it. But I would say it's window dressing because what we're seeing is very different. What should be happening because we can get on board with, you know, I was an executive. I had to balance a hundred and eighty million dollar budget. And I did every year that I was the executive, the chairperson.

But the reality is we're seeing these sweeping statements. But in the meantime, we're also seeing these proposed cuts by the very same people. Interior is proposing to cut over $1.2 billion from the Indian affairs budget, which is about a 40% cut. That's similar to Trump 1.0, which was a 35% across the board. So...

If there was a way that the federal government could just hand us over the dollars that's due to us,

That would be fine. You know, compact with us to allow us to spend the money as we see fit, get the bureaucracy out of the way. I can buy into that. But the reality is the reductions in force have dismantled the delivery of the services to Indian country. And that is nonetheless an abrogation of the treaty and trust obligation. So any way you slice it, it looks like we're entering into a termination era where they eliminate the bureaucracy first.

then it's easier to eliminate the funding to Indian country. Now, let's talk about members of Congress here, because we also did reach out to members of Congress about this. Oklahoma Senator Mark Wayne Mullen recently met

with members of the Norman, Oklahoma Chamber of Commerce in Washington, D.C. We had reached out to his office about an interview decline, but we did listen to what he told the Norman, Oklahoma Chamber of Commerce. He did not specifically address tribal cuts, but he did acknowledge that Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency has made mistakes.

He called them, such as when it proposed cutting funding for a National Weather Service facility in Norman. He compared this. So here's a bit of a clip from the meeting that Mullen posted on Instagram. Let's listen. When they're cutting through something this big, mistakes happen. That happened right in your old backyard. But we got it resolved. I talked to Elon one time, and it started getting solved almost immediately.

So he had no idea. And sometimes that stuff happens. You know, it's very difficult for people up here in Washington, D.C. to know what's going on in New Orleans.

And also, Aaron Payment, that, of course, was Oklahoma Senator Mark Wayne Mullen. We also reached out to Oklahoma Congressman Tom Cole. They also did not respond to our request for an interview. And Cole is a member of the Chickasaw Nation, and he told the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Interior, Environment, and Related Agencies back in February that he is committed to honoring the U.S. government's longstanding treaties with Native Americans to provide basic services. Let's listen.

I have been in contact with agencies in the White House to ensure our responsibilities to tribes are fully and understood across all facets of the federal government. And sometimes people just don't get it. I mean, they quite often come from places that don't have a tribal presence. They don't know much about the issue. Again, these are important treaty and trust responsibilities issues.

the United States needs to fulfill. And our commitment is to work with you and our colleagues across the aisle to make sure that those are kept. I'm Deborah Becker. This is On Point. Aaron Payment, I wonder when you hear those comments from the senator from Oklahoma and the congressman from Oklahoma saying, well, you know, maybe some of these initial things were a mistake by Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency. And yes, in fact, the government will honor these longstanding treaties. What do you say?

- Well, I would add to the mix that Senator Mullen is Cherokee. He's a citizen of the Cherokee Nation and Representative Cole is co-chair of the Native American Caucus in the Congress along with Charisse Davids.

So we have some really strong advocates in the legislative branch, including Senator Lisa Murkowski from Alaska, who's the chair of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. They're all genuinely supportive of the treaty and trust obligation and fulfilling it.

And so I do have some hope and faith that they're going to be able to be a line of defense. But what I'm worried about is you saw in December when the Congress passed the continuing resolution, and then you've seen in the blueprints, the Senate blueprint and the House blueprint, that in the 11th hour, when push comes to shove,

The billionaire class has made the round of calls along with the president to threaten to primary people out of office if they don't kowtow. And what we're seeing is a weird phenomena that we've never seen before. Co-equal branches of government where Congress is subordinating their authority to appropriate to the executive branch.

And instead of these cuts and then mending it afterwards and piecemealing things back together afterwards, what should be happening is the administrative branch and the legislative branch should be reaching out and holding formal consultations with tribes to ask them about what the impact would look like if these cuts were to happen in Indian country. And we're not seeing that yet. So I've got my fingers crossed that...

The Chickasaw and the Cherokee and the Ho-Chunk come together and they protect us. But I wonder, you know, you mentioned Trump first time around, Trump 1.0, you know, and you're hoping that these formal consultations will happen with tribal leaders. But is this different than it was during the first Trump administration?

Absolutely. I was first vice president for the National Congress the first time, and we met with Donald Trump's key legislative aides for American Indians, key Native advisors. And we also met with the chief of staff of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs,

At that point, they were proposing 35% cuts across the board to Indian country. And what we were told is don't worry because while the president proposes, Congress disposes, which told us that we just have to basically just tolerate these proposed cuts and Congress will defend us.

But what's very different today is where members of Congress were willing to stand up. Today, they're afraid. They're afraid to lose their position. So I would call on all members of Congress and the Senate to stand up for their leadership, stand up for their constituents and their state. What you're about to see, and you're beginning to see a little glimpse of a little courage kind of making its way in the Senate Republicans, where they're starting to fight back a little bit on these proposed Medicaid and Medicare cuts.

and also Social Security, because they're beginning to see the impact to their red states where those jobs, where those services are about to be cut. So you may see a little bit of a mutiny on the Senate Republicans if the president keeps making discretionary cuts or indiscriminate cuts without even consulting with them. So overall, you would say it's very different than it was the first time around, but the

You're starting to feel a little bit better about it than you were, and you think that there may be some sort of compromise maybe reached. Would you even call it that?

Cautious optimism, I guess I would say it. Maybe it's just wishful thinking. OK, we're talking about how the Trump administration's budget cuts are affecting Native American communities throughout the U.S. And this unique law that allows for or that requires really the federal government to fund many services on Indian reservations throughout the country. We're going to continue this conversation when we come back after a break. I'm Deborah Becker. This is On Point.

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We've been talking about potential cuts and how they might particularly affect indigenous communities and Indian reservations throughout the country. We've talked about health care services, education, addiction treatment, food banks, and more. And I'm wondering, we did hear from the Department of Interior on Point Gauda Statement, and it does say that it's developing plans to implement operational improvements.

Do you think there's room for operational improvements in some of these services and how that might be something that you could work toward with the Department of Interior? Oh, yes. And I think, you know, even the stated mission of DOGE, you know, to cut fraud and to cut, you know, misspending and so on. I mean, I think these are all laudable goals. And I think certainly Indian country supports them. There's so much

government red tape in the way that we access funding and deal with the federal government. I think that most of Indian country would support that 100 percent. Were there some of these agencies that are seeing cuts now? Had they received more funding during the Biden administration? And there is perhaps some sort of cutting of what had happened in the previous administration. And Erin, you may

be able to answer this question. You may have more information about this because you work so closely with the first Trump administration and you've been watching this. I mean, was there a bump under Biden that's now being reduced under Trump? Is it that simple or no?

Yes, it is. When I, in the first administration, for three legislative cycles in a row on behalf of NCAI, I got to testify in the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs on the Indian country budget. And so I'm really attuned to what we received under each administration, under the Obama administration. And we saw record amounts of funding to Indian country under the Biden administration. Part of it was due because of the

because of the pandemic and also to try to stimulate the economy because of the pandemic and the threatening recession. But jobs and infrastructure brought needed dollars to Indian Country, again, for which is due to us because it was promised to us in the treaties. And we're seeing indiscriminate massive cuts

And I'm not sure how intentional those are. You know, there again is my wishful thinking. Or if a lot of it is just indiscriminate and, you know, cutting across the board, kind of like the Graham Redman Act, where you cut first and then ask questions later. But we're seeing lots of executive orders rescinded without being replaced.

Indian self-determination, which Mary Ann had mentioned, is in its 50th year. This year, we will celebrate the 50th anniversary of self-determination, which is giving tribes the discretion to spend the funds how they see fit. So it's ironic that we're seeing the dismantling of the treaty and trust obligation in the 50th anniversary. But again, how intentional it is or indiscriminate. And so what they need to do is slow the roll. They need to stop

consult with tribes, ask tribe what the impact would be. I do think there's efficiencies to be had. What I would like is I'd like to formula fund all tribes and get a lot of the bureaucracy out of the way because tribes have to compete for the funding that is due to us for a lot of the funding. And that's just not right. One example is under the Affordable Care Act, the Medicaid extension

expansion and exchange, you have to be poor to qualify for that. The treaty and trust obligation should not be based on whether you're a poor Indian or not. So the means test should be eliminated. But yes, we're seeing drastic cuts across the board in comparison from Trump 2.0 to Biden. And then again, we leveled off in Trump 1.0, mainly because we had protection in the Congress. What?

What about other sources of revenue for the tribe? I mean, I know that there are some tribes that have gambling casinos, right? Some tribes sell gasoline. They're not taxed, right? They sell gasoline or tobacco without federal taxes. I mean, are there other ways that tribal communities can get revenues in that could supplement what the federal government is giving them? And can that be tapped if...

if this continues? Yeah, I would say, first of all, because there's a misnomer, and I'm glad you asked this question. Only about 40% of the tribes across the country have gaming, and a much smaller number have gaming net revenues that are such that they could supplement the federal government's failure to fully fund the treaty and trust obligation. So my tribe, and many tribes across the country, I would say most tribes, already supplant

the funding that the federal government should be already providing. So my tribe, I was a council member when I introduced a resolution to put 100% of our net revenue from our gaming operations and our enterprise operations

back into services for the tribe. So we are already doing that. And other tribes across the country are already doing that. But I'm glad you asked the question because most of the tribes, the majority of the tribes, do not have that kind of revenue that can supplement or supplant the federal government's failure to honor the treaty and trust obligation. So I guess I just wonder what some of the proposals are. And I want to ask Mary this as well. What

What are tribes thinking about doing? Because this is facing federal agencies across the country, whether they affect indigenous communities or not. And so folks are making contingency plans. Are tribal leaders looking at any contingency plans and what might those be? Any ideas about that? Erin, you first and then Mary will go to you.

Yeah, so, you know, I'm a descendant. I'm an enrolled member, but I'm a descendant from a long line of my ancestors, and it's my responsibility to uphold the treaty and trust obligation. Of course, we've survived ebbs and flows, but we shouldn't be asked to

how are we going to withstand these cuts if they ultimately happen? We have faith in our ability to advocate for ourselves and hopefully convince the legislature to do the right thing and to uphold the treating trust obligation.

You know, the day may come, because we go through this every so often, we go back through a threatened termination era, and we have to figure out how we're going to continue to exist. And tribes are diversifying. Tribes are finding different ways to do rentals. Housing is at a premium right now, and that's part of our business portfolio, is we rent not only to our members, but also to non-Indian people.

And so the question is really how do we make sure that the federal government upholds its treaty and trust obligation such that we don't need a contingency plan because, again, a country is only as good as its word, and it promised to provide health, education, and social welfare. So we're holding the federal government to that promise. Right. And so then what would you say, Aaron, just to follow up before we go to Mary, what would you say is the percentage that

of monies for most programs for indigenous communities that comes from the federal government? Is it 90 percent? Is it 95 percent and only 5 percent from other sources? And that's what you want to diversify? Are there any numbers out there that suggest how big is the federal funding for most of these services?

So I would say it's not big. It's essential, and we rely on it, but it's not big. Because I'll give you just a real specific example. My tribe has 50,000 members. Only 16,000 live in our purchase and referred service area or our health service area. And we only get 55% of funding for the need in that service area. Wow.

That means the vast majority of our tribe gets nothing from the federal government in terms of health care. That's why the Affordable Care Act was so important in the Medicaid expansion, because it allowed us to double our annual funding agreement with the Indian Health Service.

So I would say that the vast majority of the tribes are supplementing their operations. Probably, I'm going to guess at about 40 percent or more. All right. And Mary, what would you say to this question about potentially diversifying and what we do about the revenues that do come to indigenous communities for some of these services and also potential contingency plans if federal funds do go away?

Well, what we found is that a lot of tribes are tribal leaders are afraid to talk to us. You know, just like, you know, I think Lisa Murkowski stating that, you know, people are afraid. Like journalists. They won't talk to journalists either. Yes. We're really we're what I think is noteworthy in how they're not talking.

But yes, and as Aaron said, tribes, particularly the tribes that have gaming operations, oh, I mean, they have diversified and whenever possible, try to create contingency funds because they know that these days are coming. So, I mean, many of the people are very savvy in creating various portfolios. So, I mean, yes, we have diversified. Yeah.

However, you know, I don't think enough that we can weather, you know, these cuts, which really often, you know, are used for some very basic infrastructure needs. And also, I just want to make sure that we mention while we're talking about this is potential cuts to environmental programs and how that is a very specific issue for indigenous communities. Mary, can you talk about that a little bit? Sure.

Yeah, well, actually, ICT News, we just learned that we had a grant from the National Science Foundation in collaboration with PBS that it may be in danger. And we had a group of reporters who were focusing on climate change reporting, and it may endanger that. So that holds...

I hold a great threat for us. For your reporting. I wonder, Aaron, if you wouldn't mind, sort of, have you also gotten any kind of reaction or is there any talk about potential lobbying with members of the Trump administration to talk further about this?

Yeah, except for we don't call it that because that's what's wrong with the system. Citizens United and the money that makes its way into the processes is

is a bastardization of the American democracy. And it should be fixed. It needs to be fixed. That's why billionaires are wielding so much power right now, becoming the oligarch class. But so what we are doing is tribes are communicating and a lot of tribes are reluctant to speak out

But we are collaborating with state attorneys generals to file lawsuits to protect our resources. And we're winning. We are winning that battle. And, you know, Senator Murkowski had a meeting with NCAI and NIHB in January. And from that meeting, she did dear colleague letters to the OMB, NCAI.

to Interior and HHS to try to guide them on how to think about the Treaty and Trust obligation and how to protect it. That's been very effective. And behind every wonderful legislature that's great for Indian country, there's an Indian. And Amber Ebarb is the chief of, not chief of staff, but the lead on the portfolio for Native Americans. She used to work for NCAI.

And so we are sending letters encouraging members of Congress to do the right thing to protect the treaty and trust obligation. One big success we had was to distinguish us from DEI because there is a Supreme Court case, Morton v. Carey, that defines us as political entities and not as

ethnic minorities or our programming being DEI. That's not to say we don't support DEI, but that's not what our funding comes from. So yeah, we're doing everything. There is a portal on National Indian Health Board's website that they're collaborating with NHB,

No, that is National Indian Health Board. They're collaborating with NCAI and NICUI to collect stories, because the other thing is a lot of members of Congress will say, well, I haven't heard from anybody. I don't really know what the effect is. So we're they're collecting that primary data to be able to show the impacts of COVID.

freezing, unfreezing, the reduction in force and how people don't have access to their funds. You know, this reduction in force has created a trauma for the country where funding portals are just not available. They're not open and they can't contact anybody to find out what's going on. So this chaotic approach is it's got to break. It's got to come to an end. You know, you mentioned DEI, and I wonder, has that been a complete switch?

For you to say that, you know, we need to be completely separate from DEI under this administration, which was perhaps the opposite of what we did in the previous administration. That's exactly true. So tribes, you know, tribes have...

Tribes, for the most part, I think are supportive of DEI. In addition to being citizens of our respective tribes, we are ethnic minorities. We are a people. And some of us are really brown still. And we're discriminated against. I've been discriminated against in employment and in education.

But it's been, it's an uneasiness because tribes don't want to make it appear like we're giving up on DEI. We ebb and flow with presidents and I believe the time will come, I'm not sure how quickly, but it'll come back to where women recognize their role in diversity, equity, and inclusion, and people with disabilities recognize that, and everybody teams up on the side of doing what's right.

But in the meantime, the messaging that we are pushing is that what we receive is not based on DEI. It's based on the treaty and trust obligation. So you're cautiously optimistic that there can be some kind of an agreement reached that perhaps we'll be able to make some efficiency changes that could be beneficial to programs overall and also make sure that the necessary funding is available to the tribes. Is that right? Would you say that's right, Erin?

I would say it's right, but I would put a caveat because it's only going to be as good as how active tribes are to make sure that's the outcome because it's not going to happen for us without us. So tribes across the nation need to be diligent, they need to be affirmative, and they need to be brave because, you know, not a lot of people are speaking out to protect our treaty and trust obligation. And Mary, would you say the same thing, cautiously optimistic, and you think that some kind of...

an agreement can be reached, or how would you describe it? Well, I think he's looking to, you know, Trump is looking to push the envelope. And I think he has great interest in a lot of holdings that tribes have, you know, natural resources and so on. And I think that, you know, as he's interested in, you know, dismantling a lot of our environmental laws, I think he would have, you know, potentially, he and his supporters would have great interest

in being able to access those. I don't know. I think he will push as hard as he can. And one wonders if the Supreme Court will have the will, even after they make these decisions, you know, to enforce them. How is it going to happen? Right, right. So that doesn't sound cautiously optimistic. Well, you know, I want to be. I would say I want to be. But, you know, I mean, he doesn't seem to be bound by any of the normal

kind of boundaries or behaviors that we've seen of our lawmakers in the past. All right. So we'll wait and see what happens. This was a fascinating conversation, something new to learn about. I want to thank you both, Mary Annette Pember, national correspondent with ICT News, formerly Indian Country Today. She's also author of the new book, Medicine River, a story of survival and the legacy of Indian boarding schools. Thanks for being with us, Mary.

Also, Aaron Payment is a tribal council member for the Sault Ste. Marie tribe of Chippewa Indians. Aaron, thanks to you as well. Thank you. I'm going to go get my Medicine River book. Okay. Thanks for being with us. I'm Deborah Becker. This is On Point. Support for this podcast comes from It's Revolutionary, a podcast from Massachusetts 250. Listen on for the story of the revolution that is basketball.

You're listening to It's Revolutionary, a podcast celebrating 250 years since the shot heard around the world was fired right here in Massachusetts. I'm Jay Feinstein. From revolution to revolution, we're exploring the people and places in Massachusetts that shape America. Today, we're in the birthplace of basketball, Springfield. Nice shot!

The game was founded at a YMCA in 1891 as a way of keeping kids busy during Massachusetts winters. Man, the game just took off right from there. I think within three, four years, the game was already being taught in different countries, like India. It was awesome. Alex Pedro is the curatorial assistant and historian at the Basketball Hall of Fame, which is just a few miles down the road from the original site that started it all.

He showed me around and he says he does that because he can't play for himself. I am terrible at basketball.

As I like to say, those who cannot do, teach. But he is pretty much the biggest basketball enthusiast I've ever met. You know, it's just so exciting because there's always constant action. There's excitement. You can see the emotion on the player's face. I feel like there's more of a personality. James Naismith was the physical education instructor who invented the sport. The original game had no dribbling, and players would shoot into peach baskets with enclosed bottoms.

Janitors had to fetch the ball every time a player made a basket. It was a slower game, but it was an exciting game from the start. When Naismith designed the game, I don't think he even knew. I mean, he knew it was going to be popular, but I don't think he knew it was going to be this popular, right? Like, he made a game...

so great for television you know you can you can see the player's face you can see their emotion you can see them getting hurt or seeing their agonizing pain or just at any given moment anything can happen in a basketball game it's just so exciting you know it's just no matter what if there's a second on the clock there's still a chance to win.

But is excitement enough to make basketball revolutionary? At the very least, it inspired revolutionaries, like Lenny Wilkins, the first black player on his team. They wanted to use the game of basketball and say, hey, I belong here, you know? It doesn't matter the color of my skin or my sexuality. It doesn't matter. Basketball's basketball. Or Georgian Wells, the first woman to dunk in a game. We see dunks and we still get excited because it's just...

Or any of the number of Celtics hoop stars who have played right here in Massachusetts, featured in a new exhibit at the Hall of Fame called The Vault.

So when you first walk in, you give you that feel of a bank vault, right? This is like a bank vault door. It's all secure. This is all items that have never been together in one place. So it's pretty remarkable. There we were looking at Bob Cousy's All-Star jersey.

John Havlicek's 25,000 point ball, Cedric Maxwell's MVP finals trophy, and more. The history is so rich with the Celtics. I mean, there's so much lore. There's so many stories, so many iconic moments. And personally, to see all these championship rings and to see the evolution of them over the years and to have them in one place...

Man, that's just special. But basketball isn't just a professional sport. I met up with James Gee, a coach at Springfield Central High School, who says he sees the tangible difference basketball makes in the lives of kids.

And perhaps there's nothing more revolutionary than that.

But for Alex, it's really the game's history that makes the sport special. From a game that started in Springfield, Massachusetts at a YMCA with just 18 kids in a class to now this global game where people want to come from Europe and Asia to play in the NBA or to play for their national team and to see it, it's just, that in itself is revolutionary.

It's Revolutionary is a podcast from MA250. For more stories, check out Massachusetts250.org or WBUR.org slash MA250. Oh, God, it's been a while. Told you. Those who can't do, teach.