The Jackpod: The basic disturbance of the 21st century
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I'm Meghna Chakrabarty, and this is The JackPod, where On Point news analyst Jack Beattie helps us connect history, literature, and politics in a way that brings his unique clarity to the world we live in right now. Hello there, Jack. Hello, Meghna. We are at episode four score. So what's your headline?

The basic disturbance of the 21st century. And I'm going to presume you're not talking about a disturbance in the force, Jack. So what is the basic disturbance of the 21st century? Well, I'm adapting a line of Peter Drucker, the management theorist, the social ecologist, as he called himself. He wrote that mass production was the basic disturbance of the 20th century.

And he saw that disturbance under several phases and faces, really. There was the social displacement, country to the city, workers becoming cogs rather than craftspeople able to take pride in their workmanship. There was the economic transformation, the creation of an industrial proletariat that

And with that new forms of inequality and class conflict, there was psychological alienation between a worker's effort and the final product. He was separated from that. And finally, there was immense concentration of power in bigness, in scale, in corporations that could

harness scale and scope production and essentially lead this disturbance and profit from it. That was his general idea of the basic disturbance of the last century.

More and more people now are seeing AI as playing the role that mass production played in the 20th century, the basic disturbance of our time. With this crucial difference, mass production created work. Employment flourished in factories and manufacturing and so on. AI threatens to end work.

and to replace the worker with the robot, with the machine. So it's a disturbance. You could say it's an even more disturbing disturbance than mass production was to the 20th century. Okay.

Well, this has been the subject of conversation within the world of AI developers for some time. But now you're exactly right. It is bursting out into the public consciousness. Tell me more about your thoughts regarding the potential impacts of this mass disturbance of the 21st century. Sure. Well, you know, white-collar bloodbath. That was the headline of a recent Axios report yesterday.

And it drew the alarmed attention of opinion makers from Barack Obama to Steve Bannon. It was an interview on Axios with the AI creator Dario Imodal. Mr. Imodal saw a future, quote, where cancer is cured.

The economy grows at 10% a year, and 20% of the people don't have jobs. Here's a modal CEO of Anthropic, an AI comer, speaking to CNN's Anderson Cooper.

You know, I've been building AI for over a decade, and I think maybe the most salient feature of the technology and what is driving all of this is how fast the technology is getting better. A couple of years ago, you could say that AI models were maybe as good as a smart high school student. I would say that now they're as good as a smart college student and sort of reaching past that. I really worry, particularly at the entry level, that the AI models are

are very much at the center of what an entry-level human worker would do. And so it's hard to estimate exactly what the impact would be. And there's always this question of adaptation. And these technology changes have happened before, but I think what is striking to me about this AI boom is that it's bigger and it's broader and it's moving faster than anything has before.

Jack, I think he's exactly right. Because every time there's been some kind of technological revolution, I mean, the car is an easy one to point to. There's that quip about people didn't make buggy whips anymore or the buggy whip companies went out of business or something when cars came around. Like there is disruption of some kind. But what Imodal there is saying is spot on. It's the speed.

at which AI is getting better, which doesn't allow for any, or thus far hasn't allowed for any kind of response, right, or societal shift to accommodate the change that AI is bringing and at the scale that it's bringing it to all of us. So what do you think about that, Jack?

Yes. And it's this idea within five years. I mean, how if he had said, oh, by 2050, I'd say, well, that makes sense. Well, you know, there's going to be a lot of unemployed people unless we find out some other something to do with them.

But he said five years. And as he went on in the interview, he talks about sort of three stages of this coming crisis. The AI, what he calls large language models,

They not only meet, but soon beat human performance. And AI goes from being something that augments the human worker to something that replaces him from, or as Imodal puts it, from augmentation to automation.

Second, the U.S. government is so worried about AI in China that it says little. There is no federal regulation of AI. There seems to be very little talk of it.

And interestingly, in the big, beautiful budget bill that the House passed, what, last week, there was a provision in there that would prevent states from regulating AI. And of all people, Marjorie Taylor Greene objected to that. She said, wait a minute. You can't. That's...

What about federalism? After having voted for it, let's be honest, because she was like, I didn't know. She didn't even know that provision was in there. Nope, nope, nope. And then the third part of this is most of us aren't paying attention to it. You know, what are we talking about? Look at the current debate.

What did Tallulah Bankhead say about Catherine Hepburn's acting? It has all the range from A to B. I mean, we're talking about small matters, not big matters to the people involved, you know, the cuts in Medicaid, etc.

tax cuts for rich people, the CBO forecast for the next three. And meanwhile, there's this immense impending revolution, this

basic disturbance that's ready to fall on us while we're looking at really matters that by comparison are going to seem petty. And then almost overnight, Imoto says, business leaders see the savings of replacing humans with AI and they do it en masse.

They just go at it full bore. It's, you know, the Hemingway formula for bankruptcy. You know, how do people go bankrupt? Two ways, gradually, then suddenly. Yeah. And we may be at the suddenly point. It's going to, you know...

AI is going to be bursting out all over. Yeah. Well, so of course then if we are close to that suddenly point, the question is what can we do about it, Jack? Yes. And a modal has ideas. Other people have ideas. A modal says, well, one thing we can do is warn people about which fields are the most vulnerable. And ironically, those are fields that –

that are really almost the kind of gave rise to AI, computer fields, you know, programming, coding, all that is tremendously vulnerable. It's like the AI revolution is eating its own. We can warn people, you know, if you're preparing for a career in technology,

coding, computer programming, you better rethink that. And then we can slow down the displacement by helping workers, you know, find other jobs. And then, you know, the jargon, you see it now coming out. What workers need to do is reskill and upskill. In other words, it's putting this

world historical force, truly. And they're saying it's up to the individual to cope with it. And you can do it by upskilling and reskilling and finding out the right skill and learning how to use AI. These are all the things that'll protect you. But the idea of social protection

has not yet arisen. The idea, indeed, the challenge of planning. Is this something that we need to talk about planning since McKinsey and others say just past five years from now,

90 million workers or some such figure worldwide are going to face unemployment. How do we deal with such a thing? Shouldn't we plan? Or must the 21st century be a repetition of the 20th century, which in Michael Harrington's phrase was the accidental century, all the changes happening without

planning, almost without human intervention. And we're going to go through that cycle again. Now, if there's going to be reskilling and if individuals are going to be responsible for fighting this immense, this vast, impersonal force,

They're going to need all that training and that's going to take money. And to his credit, Imodal has spoken to this.

You know, I think for ordinary citizens, I think it's very important, you know, learn to use AI, learn to understand where the technology is going. If you're not blindsided, you have a much better chance of adapting. There's some, you know, better world, you know, at least in the short term, at least for now, we should take it bit by bit where, you know, everyone learns to use AI better. And, you know, that speeds up the adaptation that is definitely going to happen eventually, but it'll be less painful if it happens quickly.

For the lawmakers, I would say really, really, really, really, really be aware of these issues. And we're trying very hard to produce data on the economic impact, not taking off the table some fairly radical notions. Like I wouldn't exclude the notion of levying the tax on AI companies, right? If AI creates...

huge total wealth. You know, a lot of that will by default go to the AI companies and, you know, less to ordinary people. And so, you know, definitely not in my economic interest to say that. But I think this is something we should consider. And, you know, I think it shouldn't be a partisan thing. Jack, I just want to jump in here and say that, as you noted, Dario Amodal is the CEO of Anthropic, which I have to

I think it's one of the more forthright companies about what's the change that AI is going to bring and even hearing him say like, you know, tax AI companies to help pay for whatever transition to the future that they're bringing is important.

Not many other folks in his circle are willing to say that. I would like to just take a second to plug an episode that we did in the main hour of On Point. We actually did it last year, and it's titled, Is AI the Best Argument Ever for UBI, or Universal Basic Income, where we talked about exactly this. Like, what is the plan for

to help people during this seismic shift in the reality of work or joblessness.

And so we had a really, really interesting conversation about maybe we should think about entering a world where in the United States, UBI is a thing to help people make ends meet if there's going to be mass job loss due to artificial intelligence. But you know, Jack, in that hour, first of all, for fans of The Expanse, which is a science fiction book series and show, we actually got to talk to the creators of The Expanse because it's my favorite show. And this is a theme in that show. But...

They actually brought up that they thought the bigger problem wasn't necessarily income, but meaning in life. That AI, if it takes away your job, it doesn't just take away your livelihood. It takes away the meaning that you found in life. And how do we accommodate for that?

Good God, you talk about existential crises. That one fits that bill for sure. Yeah. I mean, work is our interaction with reality. It's how we enrich our lives. And without it, we're kind of lost. You know, there's a scene in The Importance of Being Earnest where Lady Bracknell says to Jack Worthing, do you smoke?

And he says, yes. And she said, oh, I'm delighted to hear it. I think every young man should have a profession. I mean, we're not going to be, you know, is that what we're going to be doing? Having taken, you know, living like aristocrats? It doesn't seem likely. No, people are going to look for meaning. They're going to search for meaning elsewhere. And some of those places aren't going to be so positive.

No, no. And work is the theater of the reality principle, in Freud's phrase. That's where reality is, where we have to bring our inchoate energies to the moment. We have to shape up to meet the demands of work. And without that,

Without that pressure, what happens to our personality? What are we lacking? Not just in meaning, but just in basic orientation to things as they are. Well, you know, this whole business of who's going to suffer first, it is going to be young people. And in fact, they look to be the first casualties of the AI disturbance already.

AI is affecting them. Their unemployment among recent college graduates is 5.8%, which is a good deal. What? A point and something, nearly two points ahead of what it is for the rest of society. And prospects for tech...

Young workers in tech have, according to the Federal Reserve, "deteriorated noticeably in fields like computer science." And why? Well, a tech executive of a startup told a reporter for The Times that a single data scientist now performs the kind of task needed by 75 people

in the company he used to work for. So unemployment is already hitting these young people. Steve Bannon, I mentioned him, he predicts this issue of AI is going to be a major issue in the 2028 campaign. He said, I don't think anyone is taking into consideration how administrative, managerial, and tech jobs are for people under 30.

Jobs that are so important in your 20s, entry-level jobs, they're going to be eviscerated. Eviscerated. The speed of the AI...

Civilizational transformation is new and unique. But in terms of massive upheaval, we've been here before, right? I mean, there have been massive economic upheavals in American history before. And lots of people got hurt, for sure. I'm not denying that. And yet some good stuff came out of those upheavals as well. I mean, what followed the Great Depression, the New Deal?

Right. So is there not like room for some jackpot listeners are going to be like, here she goes again. But from some American optimism here. Well, yes. And you're right to say, you know, out of a crisis in the past came came the politics of remedy.

And certainly, you know, the New Deal and indeed the Great Society were examples of that. And in the meantime, of course, there was such a sacrifice of good. I think there's an equal danger, though, of what this anthropologist Peter Tolchin, he cited a lot, wrote a book called Age of Discord.

And he sees periods in history when societies generate more members of elite classes than societies can grant elite privileges to. So a kind of unsatisfied elite, you know, and then elites jostle for advantages and

to which they think they're entitled and there are fewer advantages. And he even sees, he's written that the American polity today has a lot in common with the antebellum America of the 1850s and with France before the revolution, which is a pretty, he said, however, we can take steps to escape the worst societal breakdown and the ensuing waves of violence, right?

by collective cooperative action. So if a new New Deal, based on this challenge to our livelihoods and our source of meaning, which is work,

If a new New Deal is at least conceivable, so is this picture of discord and social fracture and led by an overproduction of elites, college graduates who just are being cheated of their future even as they get their diplomas. Okay, well...

Jack, I'm going to turn this over now to Jack Potters and ask them, let us know what you think about the jobs bloodbath that AI could potentially bring within the next few years. I'm wondering if you're already feeling that in your lives right now. How is AI having an impact on you and your work? I'm asking multiple questions today. And what do you think we need to do to, as AI,

to make this transition with the least amount of disruption possible. I know that seems like a stretch, but I am always interested in hearing your ideas. So you know how to do it. Pick up your phone, go to the OnPoint VoxPop app and become part of the conversation we have here at the jackpot, especially if you haven't done this before. I mean, because AI is absolutely that touches everything.

Every single person. So I want to hear from you if you've never been part of the jackpot before. Go to wherever you get your apps and look for the On Point Vox Pop. And we'll hopefully put you on the jackpot next week. And if you just stick with us over the break, you'll hear what people from last week had to say. So, Jack, we'll be right back.

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Support for this podcast comes from It's Revolutionary, a podcast from Massachusetts 250. In a place like Northampton, Massachusetts, the freedom to be yourself is not just celebrated, it's embraced. For one drag king, it's where he's found the space to live his truth. I really do think about it all the time. Like, I don't think there's anywhere else I could have lived my lived experience and do what I do besides Massachusetts. Stick around until the end of this podcast for his story.

Okay, Jack, we are back. And last week you talked about the EPA and its goals under the new leadership of EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin. We got a lot of responses from Jack Potters. First, let's go to Joe in Los Angeles. Hello there, Joe. He says environmentalism started out as a good idea but became an instrument of power and morphed into a bureaucratic miasma.

And as for the 10 million jobs estimated to be created by investments in clean energy, this is something that's been promised by administrations of the past. He says there's an inherent problem with job performance being tied to potentially polluting actions. Much like a traffic cop with a ticket quota, these 10 million people are on a quest to find any action they can halt, regardless of the actual environmental harm that action engenders.

I have to admit that I actually agreed with the sentiments expressed by Lee Zeldin. I believe that comprehensive regulatory reform will have to be more of a nicks-and-goes-to-China effort. There is no way that any reasonable person could trust the absolute shower of spalpeens, blackguards, and bastards of the current administration with this task.

Jack, hats off to Joe for using the word blackguards. And how about spall peens? What the heck is that? Wait, you don't know

I don't either. This is a first. This is a jackpot first. Paul Peens? I don't even know how to spell that. Oh, my gosh. But anyway, while I look that up, Jack, back to his overall point that the environmental movement or the push for clean energy actually has stifled other kinds of development. This is a very deep-seated and I think actually somewhat justified critique because there is a lot of red tape around

We know that actually infrastructure development or even something as basic as more housing is oftentimes stopped on environmental complaints. But give us your thoughts. I think Joe makes a very cogent point that people in the cleanup industry have a vested interest in cleanups. That doesn't mean they make them. But that's the issue, isn't it?

The people who are cleaning up don't make the messes. The messes are externalities from industry that simply pollute the environment, foul the air, and pay no price. They're finding something is what I'm saying. There's a hell of a lot of pollution going on. And companies just externalize that on us. And the EPA and environmental regulation is one way of saying, stop, you're going to have to pay for that.

One way or another, clean it up or pay for it. So yes, people have a vested interest, you could say, in the cleanups, but they don't make the messes to begin with. Mm-hmm.

Well, Spalpeen. Can we go back to that for a second? Yeah. It's quite amazing. Okay. S-P-A-L-P-E-E-N. From the Irish, actually, originally. Looks like it's 18th century anglicized. Seasonal hired laborer, rude person, scamp, layabout, or rascal.

Oh, my gosh. Amazing. Amazing. OK, so, Joe, thank you for bringing in the issue of of of spall peens and the environmental movement. Let's go on to Ella Humphrey, who's in Lincoln, Nebraska. And she has a very different view. She says dismantling the EPA is only one way the Trump administration will harm the environment anymore.

because it's seeking to deliver on its energy promise. This pursuit of energy independence is made very clear in Trump's proposed 2026 fiscal budget.

where not only is the EPA getting cut, but also the Department of the Interior, which is responsible for a lot of the ecosystem and fish and wildlife population research that goes on in the federal government. Another thing that the Trump administration is trying to do is rescind the meaning of harm within the Endangered Species Act. If this manages to pass, it means that critical habitat will no longer be protected for threatened and endangered species.

So the Trump administration, to say the least, is going to be very, very challenging for all species in America, including us. What do you think, Jack? Oh, I think that Ella, she clearly knows what she's talking about here. And yes, especially the leasing of federal lands for oil exploration, what that's going to do for habitat, for species, etc.

And, you know, but of course, even there, Trump is building on a grievance. I remember in Montana years ago seeing a sign in a men's room that said, you know, if two teenagers can reproduce in the backseat of a Volkswagen, why does it take the spotted owl 350 acres? You know, that kind of grievance.

is out there and that's sort of the politics of despoilation, I think. And therefore I think there may be less resistance to it. And then just this idea of there's something soft about caring about the other species. Of course we depend on them. The whole system depends on them.

But, you know, for decades, right-wingers have just mocked that. And I remember Ian Rand saying in the 60s, who cares about the polar bear? Well, we should care about the polar bear. You know what's interesting? It's a particular kind of intellectual right-winger that revels in this mockery of the environment because, I don't know, growing up in the West...

He just took the phrase environmentalism out of the sentence. People who cared about and care about nature, I encountered them from all across the political spectrum. Some of the greatest conservationists I ever met were hunters because it's not a political viewpoint to want to conserve the natural world and keep it healthy because of all the ways in which we interact with it. So I just...

I feel like political elites on the left and the right have really tried to aggressively pigeonhole the other side in a way that denies the reality of how all of us actually have a relationship with the spectacular natural world that we have been gifted with here in the United States. Okay.

Today, Jack, I am just on a soapbox and roll. You're on a roll, man. High judging. Let's let some more informed people have a say here. This is Bill Davis in Edmonds, Washington, and he teaches atmospheric science. And to him, Administrator Lee Zeldin's view of climate change is, quote, head in the sand denialism.

We don't know how bad it's going to get. We don't know what the future impacts are going to be, but we know it is going to include things like worse storms, mainly because storms are powered by the heat in the ocean, right? Well, who gets damaged by those the most? The red states, Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, up the coast, Carolinas. And I

I'm going to go ahead and use the Chuck Schumer quote. They don't seem to give a rat's ass about their own people and the damage that's going to be done to their own districts. It's absolutely gobsmacking. Okay, here's another one. This is Liam McDonald in Springfield, Illinois. And Liam studied environmental engineering and...

worked for the EPA, the Illinois EPA, for 35 years. And he talks about how the reason we are less likely to die from common diseases today, for example, is scientific research and regulation. The two together.

And he says we need more of them both now, not less. It's better to study and find out what the problem is going to be and then make the rule instead of having people die and learning from that experience. When I worked for the Illinois EPA at that time, which I've been retired for 13 years now, is that the EPA was already understaffed.

They're already outsourcing things that needs to be done. So if anything, the number of people working at the EPA and the expertise at the EPA should increase. But now I'm going to end on a sad note. It's my personal belief it's almost reached a point where it's too late to protect the environment and protect public health. Wow, Jack, what do you think? Well, yeah.

You know, Bill's comment is an atmospheric scientist. He knows what he's saying. I watched a speech from Sheldon Whitehouse on C-SPAN. He's a senator from Rhode Island, a strong environmentalist. He says, already there is a, because of climate change, there is a crisis in the insurance industry. In Florida, we did a show about this. And in California, exorbitant crisis.

price now to get insurance, and it's going to go up and up and up. What's the effect on that? Well, he says, suppose you want to sell a house or buy a house. Most people have to get a mortgage. To get a mortgage, you have to get insurance, but the insurance costs are going to be

very high, making it very difficult for you to buy that house. So the banking industry kind of slows up because it can't make

loans readily, and all of this. And then the seller can't get rid of his house because the cost of insurance, the cost of mortgages, all of that has just been so great. Anyway, he was describing how climate change, which seems like, oh, maybe that'll happen. It could be in your pocket book tomorrow. Yeah.

Okay, we've got one more here, and this is Kyler Farr in North Bend, Washington. If I look at this quote-unquote big, beautiful bill, you know, and I hear the talk among Republicans that, you know, this doesn't go far enough to remove clean energy and electric vehicle subsidies, and I just find the whole thing...

to be disgusting and reactionary and stupid, quite frankly. The question I had for Magna was, how do you personally, especially given your environmental background, square your professed political optimism for our democracy

with the reality and the timeline of the climate crisis. Okay. Jack, I'm going to drag my soapbox back out here. Do you mind giving me a minute or two? Because it's a good question. No, please, please. And I really appreciate Kyler asking it.

He may not like my answer, though. First and foremost about the climate crisis. Look, of course, human driven climate change is a it's you know, it's a global issue. But I've got to add I'm into solutions. OK, and I've got to ask what has screeching about climate change crisis, crisis, crisis, crisis. What has that actually achieved? We're at the point now.

Where unless we convincingly are able to reach people who are sick of hearing about a crisis, nothing is going to change. OK, we did an hour about why Texas, of all the states in the union, Texas is the number one clean energy producing state in this country.

It's not because environmental activists are down there screaming about climate change and hectoring folks about it. It's because they literally do not use the language of green energy. They just don't. They go to ranchers and they're like, hey, God gave you oil under the ground at one point in time. God also gave you wind. Put up a wind turbine. You can make some money. And you know what? I know activists don't like that.

But if we're actually going to do something about climate change, we literally have to talk to people in a different way. And I actually – that's one of my sources of optimism. If Texas can do it, the rest of the country can. But the other thing, more deeply, more deeply –

And sorry for me going on, Jack, but part of the reason why I am never going to stop being optimistic is I was just kind of born that way. Got it from my dad. And I do think that this is a commonality amongst all people who choose to be Americans, all immigrants. Like you have to actually firmly believe that life is better in possibly –

that there's a possibility of a better life in the future in order to want to leave everything you've ever known behind and come to another country. Optimism is like genetically intertwined into most immigrants to America. And I just was the lucky recipient of that genetic inheritance. And again, the other reason why my professed, as Kyler says, optimism is enduring is

Is because what other choice do we have? What other choice do we have? I'm thinking about my kids, first of all. And I just now remembered, you probably remember this film, Jack, back in 1997, Life is Beautiful.

Do you remember that film? Roberto Benigni, right? Spectacular Italian film about a Jewish father in Italy who's he, his young son and wife are sent to concentration camps. It's a comedy. The movie is a comedy because it's centered around the father's attempt to use his imagination and joyfulness to protect his son while they're in the concentration camp.

So, you know, I got criticized for finding comedy in the Holocaust. But the point is, is you have to maintain a kind of optimism as a moral duty for our children. I really believe that because what else are we going to do without optimism? Why even rise to greet another day? Survival in and of itself is an act of optimism, I believe.

And for my kids, that's why I will never let go the possibility of believing that better things can happen. That doesn't mean I'm going to be naive. Stuff is crappy right now. Like reality, I'm not going to deny what reality is, but I'm also not ever going to deny the possibility that it can be better. Okay, that's my soapbox. I'm stepping down from it now.

Well, you did it proud. And in pointing to Texas, you know, you're saying, here's a hope whose grounds are true. Yeah. Look at this. Self-interest can work for the environment. They're not opposed. And, of course, one of the criticisms of liberals is that they've taken a moral line. We have to do it for the sake of the animals or the, you know, the... No, we need to do it for our own sake. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Which is why the day that I become less than ferociously optimistic, Jack, is the day that I am dead. And that day is not today. So, Jack, you are so alive. Thank goodness. Jack, thank you as always. Thank you. I'm Meghna Chakrabarty and this is The Jackpot from On Point.

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You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today at joinmidi.com. That's joinmidi.com. Support for this podcast comes from It's Revolutionary, a podcast from Massachusetts 250. Listen on for the story of one drag king's self-expression, pride, and transformation in Northampton, Massachusetts.

You're listening to It's Revolutionary, a podcast celebrating 250 years since the shot heard around the world was fired right here in Massachusetts. I'm Jay Feinstein. From revolution to revolution, we're exploring the people and places in Massachusetts that shape America.

Today we found ourselves in Northampton, Massachusetts, home of some pretty rad rainbow crosswalks. They're nothing small. They're pretty, it's a pretty chunky, very obvious rainbow. That's Ross, better known as the drag king Victor Evangelica. I

I carry the spirit of Victor everywhere I go. He spreads the good word. I met up with him at the Cafe T-Roots on Main Street, the city's main drag, to talk about how Northampton might be revolutionary as an oasis of queer life. I want to make sure they know that they can bother us for food. Of course, after we ordered some delicious food. Oh, thank you so much.

Oh, that looks so yummy. And he said revolutionary doesn't even begin to describe Northampton. You know, this is a place where Sojourner Truth lived, Frederick Douglass visited. There is a long history of people who have been critical to our understandings of the human experience and people's struggles that have found refuge in this area.

Revolutionary War veteran Daniel Shays, best known for Shays' Rebellion, lived around this area too. And today, Northampton continues to be an oasis for artists, queer people, and anyone who might not have somewhere else to go. You know, it's a very zany population here, I'm very proud to say.

It's a place he feels he can really be himself. The queer joy and honestly like self-expression that I can have here is something that I genuinely feel it's some of the best in the world. This is like one of the best places in our world to be queer and

I think about that and I think about the struggles I still face and sometimes it's disheartening, but it's also, it brings me so much joy that there is such a resilient group of people around here who are very friendly, you know, want to help you. If you talk to somebody about confusing parking meters in this area, somebody's going to help you out. If you talk to somebody about where's this thing or that that's a local, they're probably going to know where to point you and what's the best place to eat.

And he's right. It was Victor's suggestion that brought me to T-Roots in the first place. But I was also in town to see Victor perform, where he dressed up in a costume made of wires and chains and Super Nintendo cartridges. One of the parts of the big reveal is I take off this, like, inhibiting jacket made out of wires, and I shed these things, and I'm able to move more freely throughout this number, and...

show people that act of transformation and freeing yourself from that kind of personal bind you might have. I mean, it just sounds like it gives you a level of joy. I'm just watching the smile on your face as you describe the character. Yeah, I kind of do a lot of 80s riffs that are nostalgic for me, just based off of what my parents were into a lot growing up. And that's really what makes me

feel the most at home I feel and it's the easiest for me to fit into. It's a lot of fun. So that night we joined an eclectic crowd in an arcade called The Quarters to see some drag.

Before the show, we caught up with a few audience members. Yeah, what are you hoping to see tonight? Craziness, fun, queer love, joy, you know, that kind of thing. Most of the time, there's usually a drag show happening somewhere. So whether it's like here, a couple towns over, there's usually like some place to go to see it. I just love drag as an expression of...

like individuality and what people can do with their craft and their skills. It's fun to see how creative people get with it. I mean, the way people do their makeup and what they wear, it's amazing to see people just go up there and just be their authentic selves. And being authentic is what it's all about, says Victor. The best drag that people see is truly reflective of people who know themselves and

reflective of people who are so proud of the person that they are, that they're able to go on stage and serve a fantasy.

And he sees drag like that and art like that all over the Northampton area. I think when you get people who can live as their authentic selves as an area, you get better art. You get people who are doing things for real. And I'm, you know, I really do think about it all the time. Like, I don't think there's anywhere else I could have lived my lived experience and do what I do besides Massachusetts. I like that.

It's Revolutionary is a podcast from MA250. For more stories, check out massachusetts250.org or wbur.org slash ma250. ♪