The Secret Psychology of Successful Negotiators, with Matt Schultz
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Sometimes just by asking questions, we can make a lot more money or save a lot more money, but all in times we are afraid to ask. So today we are speaking with mt. shouts. The author of the book, ask questions, save money.

Make more on how you can use the power of asking questions to make more money at work or to save more money in the things that you buy in your day to day life. Welcome to the afford anything podcast, the show that understands you can afford anything, but not everything. Every choice there is a trade off, and that applies not just to your money, but your time, your focus, your energy, any limited resource.

This show covers five pillars, financial psychology, increasing your income, investing real state and entrepreneur ship. It's double ee fire. I'm your host, pola pant. I trained an economic reporting at columbia, and I help you focus on what matters. Hello, matt.

hi. Thanks for everyone.

Thank you so much for being here. Let's start with the primary category, where people can really make the most money by asking for more. And that is at work. Most of the people who are listened to this right now currently have a job and are not imminently about to switch jobs. Can they make more money despite the fact that they're not negotiating for .

a new salary? Yeah and they absolutely the stuff dish they were talking about that you need to do isn't really complicated. IT can take a little bit of time, but a lot of IT is just about taking notes of what you do on a day to day basis. One of the job experts I talk to, he was saying that if you, once a week, take the time to note down all the things that you've done during that period, you can kind of build up this laundry list of things that you can then to your supervisor the next time IT comes up for promotion or if you're just like i've been had a job of you in two years, it's time i'm bringing this up. It's really simple stuff like your basic job duties. But then it's also things that you did that you win a little bit above, beyond on on or if you helped out somebody who needed help or you made some sort of big sale or whatever the case might be for your job, making those notes really make a difference because one of the things we always struggle with when we are kind of helping ourselves in our promotion and that sort of things, we we forget what we've done. So just a simple task of making notes can allow you to Better understand your own value and kind of Better key yourself up to present your actually .

take a step back asking for more money, whether it's in the context of work or whether it's in the context of trying to save on credit card fees on items that you're buying at the store. Asking is one of the most powerful levers that we have. Why do so few people do IT?

There are many reasons as there are people. One of the biggest is that they just don't think that they'll succeed many times. It's way more successful than you would expect.

Asking to have a late see waved on a credit card, for example, of ninety percent of people who ask get that way. It's just a policy that a lot of car issues have. You just have to ask for IT with.

A lot of people don't know that they can be successful, but then a lot of other people just don't like doing IT or they get intimidated or they don't think they have enough knowledge to really be successful. One of the things that I always try and make sure that people know is that everybody has experienced negotiating everybody. Everybody has had a roommate or a partner who they have had to figure out what they're onna set the thermos dad at in the apartment.

Yeah, people have negotiated with parents as to who's gonna take what they in the car pool to soccer practice or to the recital or whatever the case might be. Those little things are negotiations. The stakes aren't super high necessarily, but they are still negotiations in which you're trying to accomplish something. And ultimately, things work out Better if everybody is happy. And really, all of those same sort of principles apply when you're talking to your partner significant about where you're going to go for dinner that night with in laws, it's not that different from when you are negotiating with a cradle card company or with an employer or with contractor or somebody to furniture stories. It's all really is very similar.

I want to go back to something you said earlier when you talked about how people are so often and very successful. One of the states that you mentioned is that when people ask if their annual fee on a credit card can be reduced, six head of ten people get that fee waved entirely, and another three out of ten people get that few reduced. So nine out of ten people either get that fee eliminated or reduced just by asking that any al fee on a .

created card is in the crazy. In my day job of lending tree, we do a bunch of these types of surveys, and we've been doing that particular one around annual fees and credit limits and that sort of stuff for five, seven years now. And I know other places have done similar things for years in the success rates have always been about the same, good times, bad times, high interest rates, low interest rates sessions, pandemics, whatever.

You just have this opportunity because banks and other businesses want to keep your business because they know that if you stick around, they are going to make more money off of you once you have been internalize that idea of the importance of lifetime value and how businesses view you in kind of changes the mindset to where you're not necessarily going in any more gravy, saying, please, can I have this fee waved or whatever you're going in, in a position of power because they want you to stick around. It's the same reason why your gym gives out logo water bottles and t shirts and why credit companies wave late fees and all that sort of thing. These companies wants you to stick around and IT doesn't cost them much to keep you really, really happy. And it's one thing if that annual fee is a five hundred, six hundred dollar and you will be may not be as likely to get those waved, but he came her to ask. But certainly, if it's a eighty, ninety dollar and you will see you absolutely should ask because your chances of successor Better than you realize.

I have a created card with a six hundred dollar annual fee, and I just set a reminder on my google calendar that every summer I call them and I say, hi, can I speak to card member attention? I say that right off that every time that I call like clock work, that I don't get the fee waved entirely. But I do get a significant reduction, usually about half of OK.

Typically.

that's an exchange for some type of behavior that they want to see from me. So they might say, assume that you've spend a minimum of fifteen hundred per month, then we will reduce one hundred dollars per month for the next six months, assume that you meet this minimum spend red hold. And that really is a win win.

Like they have some type of user behavior that they wants to see from me. I have some type of discount that I want to see from them. Boom, we work IT out yeah.

And the Better a customer you are, the more likely you are to get your way. And I said earlier that maybe if you have a higher fee, you may not be as likely to get IT waved the cavy to.

That would be exactly your situation where if you somebody who spends a lot of money on that card and pays IT off regularly in your good customer, and they like having you around the three hundred dollars to american express, your chase or whoever IT is, is a grain of sand on the beach, IT doesn't matter to them at all. But IT keeps you a happy customer, and that's what it's all about. You also mention the idea of kind of the win win. That's such an important thing too, because as much as we want to make sure that we are deleting what we need and what we want out of this conversation, IT makes IT a whole lot easier to get that or at least to get some steps in that direction if the other person on the other line is going to get something out of IT too.

right? And so that's why the phrasing matter so much. So for example, if if you know that you are going to be late on a given bill, let's say that you recently lost your job or some big emergency came up that consumed your entire emergency fund and then some and you know that momentarily you're going to be laid on some bills, call in advance, let them in advance. And then the phrasing is how can we work through this so that we make sure that you get paid?

Yeah it's also about not just allowing yes and no answers to cut you off because one of the things that I talk about is the idea of kind of making sure that you're asking open ended questions because the harder you make IT for the person on the other end of the phone to say no, the Better IT is for you.

Maybe something along the lines of who on your team can I talk to about getting a lower rate on my card, something like that as opposed to can you give me a lower interest rate on my car? It's a small little thing, but it's a way of starting a conversation rather than just asking a yes or no question because a lot of what keeps people from making these requests is the fear of getting that no and having to know what to say when you get that no. And a lot of people like i'm not sure what to do with those sort of open ended questions could really help.

Let's walk through some examples of open ended questions. We've been talking a lot about credit cards so far, but this applies in any domain. For one of the biggest ticket purchases that people make is housing. So let's talk through an example of using open ended questions to negotiate the interest rate on a mortgage or the feeds that you pay on a mortgage.

Obviously, mortgage such a big expense and there's so much that you can do. But when you're talking about open into questions and just negotiations, a lot of times people don't necessarily know that they can ask for these things. I mean, because they are clearly, clearly places that you can go where you can do a lot of this stuff online, where you don't necessarily have to talk to anybody, that's fine.

But there are certainly things that you can do once you have gotten in touch with your Linda and you're trying to walk through getting a Better rate and getting fees wave in that sort of thing where you can just go to them and say, you know, have. Who can I speak with about potentially seeing if you could match this other interest rate that i've gotten from this other ender? I've spoken with a few different people. They have a little bit Better rate, but i've liked working with you, and I wanted to see if you all would be willing to match that for me, that something I would speak with you about or how would we go about finding a way to bring down that rate so that .

it's freed doesn't open in question. And IT also indicates that you want to work with one given lender. Now your approach is to apply on the same day, apply for three or four, five mortgagees can get those quotes so that you see and IT has to be on the same day because rates change so often. Yeah but you see on the same day the quotes that you get from three, four, five different lenders. So you'll be able to make an apples to apples comparison of both the rates and the fees on that mortgage.

And in that, what's really so important is that your power comes from being able to compare because we always think about Price matching for other types of retail, but we don't necessarily always think about IT in other places, whether its boring ge or medical or or any kind of thing. If you get rates from three to five lenders, you can see what's what is play one off the other.

If this lender maybe has different fees or a little bit Better situation or maybe sometimes it's that you spoke with the person on the phone after contacting and you felt like you had a report with them. That stuff matters too, and that stuff gets factored in as well. But so much of that is, is about being able to compare and contrast what the actual offers are and working from there to Frankenstein your way into the best possible offer that you can get.

And just to take a moment to illustrate the stakes here. So a quarter point rate cut on a three hundred and sixty thousand dollar mortgage is twenty thousand dollars over the life of .

the loan a big deal.

right? And in terms of the fee structure on a comparable mortgage, similar mortgage amounts like lending volume, similar terms, everything else being the same, the fees themselves can be of a five thousand dollar differential or more from option a to option b.

Yeah, no question is is absolutely positively worth your time to compare different lenders when he comes to mortgage. And really almost any if hindal instrument right is about comparison shopping. But then you don't have to stop at that comparison shopping.

You can take that next step, ask for more Price matching or ask for whatever else you you may be looking for. Opening that conversation is such an important thing. And it's a little like when you're negotiating job, a promotion or salary at a new job interview, people get intimidated and think that the person they're talking to is gonna a get offended or put off for something.

If you ask for something or if you negotiate, anybody who has ever hired somebody knows that you go in fully expecting to negotiate. And that's the case with so many different places. But we don't really apply that same principle that you yourself may have lived through as somebody who hire people. You may not necessarily see that as being functional or being an issue or being something that you can do in other facets of your life, but IT absolutely is.

I want to talk more about hiring in just a second. But to stay on the mortgage example and the on IT is because, as we just describe, the stakes are so high, you we're not talking about one hundred dollars for talking about twenty thousand dollars for talking about literally tens of thousands of dollars, something that can not have A A significant impact on a person's network and their budget to illustrate what that playbook would look like, that step by step book for a person who's listening to this, if they're looking for a mortgage on one given day, at one given points, they obtain quotes from three to five lenders for the same type of mortgage.

So let's just save, for example, thirty year six straight mortgage. You want to keep IT constant, right? Thirty year six straight mortgage, you get quotes from three to five lenders all on exactly the same day. And then you take a look, you say, all right, option one has the lowest fees. Option two has the lowest rate, an option three, four, ign five or somewhere in the midst based on that arding point, you then start talking to representatives yeah they can you Price match yeah yeah.

Who would I be able to speak with about potentially matching an offer that i've seen from another lender?

You have to tell them who that other lander is or what the offer is.

Not necessarily. One of the things that always comes up with this stuff is, is IT O K, A line bluff in play, a little poker and sometimes IT is it's a little bit of what you're comfortable with because there certainly can be value in a little bit of poker playing and IT can certainly work to your advantage in so many different types of negotiations. But short answer is that you don't necessarily need to give them chapter inverse on the other things that you've seen.

What would you do if they ask and you're not comfortable revealing that .

information? Well, if they push and there's not really much of a reason not to give the information, it's it's O K to do IT. But that's also one of those things that you can keep in mind when you're building the report with the person because in so many negotiations, whether I mean talking about like people who have a handy man that we've used forever, a doctor that they go to or a mechanic and that sort of thing, if you are kind of building this relationship and somebody is too pushy or somebody doesn't like that, you ask too many questions or just kind of rubies a little bit wrong. That can be a red flag potentially that you may want to take your business elsewhere because as much as a lot of these relationships are too quickly about dollars and sense, other things do come into play too, right?

Because the situation I can imagine is that the representative you are talking to pushes you to find out, all right, where did you get that quote from? And so you tell that person or oh, well, this particular lender is the one that gave me a quote for this amount where the one that quoted me the fee and then the representative just starts bashing that particular lender.

Well, of course, you got that kind of quote from the vat lander, vat lander. So yeah, there the world. yes.

Yeah, exactly exactly so. But that just reflects badly on the representative. But you see IT all the time.

You do see IT all the time because things are so competitive. And again, there is something to be said about liking who you work with, whether it's in your daily job or it's somebody that you're talking to who you are giving your business. Because again, a mortgage is a really, really big thing and you're talking about a lot of money. And if you don't like the other person or you just gonna get a ek vibe from them or whatever, maybe take your business elsewhere or at least factor that some of you're thinking, right?

What would you say before you we move on to the workplace? What would you say to someone who's listening to this, who's going, wait a second. I'm a male nial. I don't pick up the phone.

I what I would say is I understand, but I also think there is so much value in the connection between a direct conversation with a person, whether it's face to face or a face time or a phone call or whatever, that can be so valuable because as we see every day in social media, it's very, very easy to tell people, know if they're just a random person that you'll have no interaction with ever again.

But if you can get that person on the phone or if you can go to the branch of the bank or whatever the case might be, or even sometimes, if you can have a direct message conversation in social media where you can at least get some sort of feel for who that person really is, that stuff matters. People like to help people that they like. You are just somebody who is a wage or an email.

And there is never any sort of chance to get any kind of real connection even if it's just a little bit of something where, I don't know. You mentioned A A football game you saw the day before, or the trip. You take little stuff like that. The mayor may not come up, but if they do, that sort of stuff matters. And IT can separate you from the person who may have been really difficult to them or yelled at them or just whatever the case might be that those sorts of things can really matter.

right? Because the there is a range of what is possible for that representative to do. And if you have a good report, then they're more likely to give you that top the end .

of that range. Oh yeah, one of the top rules is just don't be a jerk, whether you're talking about mortgage or work or whatever, people like to help people that they like and people who are nice to them. And the person at the mortgage company has probably had a few hard conversations that day.

The person at the hotel checker has probably been yelled at ten times, just these things matter. And if you can have an actual kind of relationship conversation with them, and even just a little thing can matter. And IT can be the difference between them being like, no, I don't want to give that person a break and oh, sure guy, I can help you. Let me, let me this up. Just take a second.

right you so I bring up the example of millennial s who don't answer the phone or who don't like making phone calls, because what I hear anette ally, is that a lot of people feel anxiety around phone calls because it's so unscripted. When you send an email or composed any type of written message, you have the time to think about what you're going to say.

We actually had A A member of our team on afford anything who very much did not ever want to get on the phone beyond zoom call. SHE only wanted to communicate by email because he wanted to receive the message digest IT take some time to think through her response, raft her response, read over IT and then send IT back. SHE really wanted that that slow down. And so the immediate acy that is incumbent in live communication SHE found to be very stressful .

yeah understandably so. And ultimately, what IT gets down to is whatever medium you're the most comfortable with, you'll probably be the most effective with. So if all things being equal, it's hard to be having an actual conversation with an actual person.

But if you would feel much more comfortable doing an email or something a little more involved in, a little more scripted. That's fine. It's all about what's going to get you, where you wanna go. It's a little bit like when people talk about available verses snowball, that payoff method really, no matter all that much, it's just what is going to work for you psychologically and what is going what is going to make you keep going because is not a one size. It's all answer.

Well, let's talk about how to get the most out of your employer when IT comes to not just your salary but also the the merit of ways that you can get benefits in other forms of compensation. We'll discuss that in just a moment, but first, we're going to take a moment to hear from the sponsors who make this show possible. Was the future hold for business? If you ask nine experts, you're going to get ten different answers.

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Now people often think about their salary in their benefits when they consider compensation. When I say benefits in this context, I mean health insurance retirement. But one of the ones that you've made is that your benefits are at least to a potential range of benefits depending on the size of your company, could include mentoring IT, could include tuition reimbursement. These are things that we rarely hear about when IT comes to salary and benefit negotiation. Yeah.

that stuff is a big deal. And and maybe the biggest of all of those in the past few years is hybrid versus remote verses in office. Remote work is a benefit and all of that stuff really, really my haters.

And so many times, we end up kind of getting stuck on the headline number, whether it's it's the salary that we're negotiating or the credit cards sign up bonus or whatever other example there might be when if what you almost always need to do is look deeper down as well because ultimately the the devil is in the details, right? So it's all about knowing exactly what the full range of the offer is. All of those things, tuition reimbursement entering remote versus in office.

All of those things matter in what is really important for you to do before you have these conversations, whether you're talking about in interview for a new job or you're talking about a review with your current company, looking for a promotion is to sit down and think through what matters to you the most because, again, most people don't do well without a script rate. And so the more you can kind of anticipates some of the questions they will come and some of the counter offers that you might get, the Better off you are. So if you if you are nervous about thinking through things on the fly, if you can think, okay, well, if somebody offers me a little like some stock options versus tuition reimbursement or if they offer me the chance to work with this one person as as a mentor verses the three days in the office, all of those kind of permutations matter and mean you're not going to think of everything, not going to have this giant matrix of stuff to commit to memory. But even just the initial exercise of thinking that through is a really helpful thing.

Okay, so let's go through a word for word script. Now if I worked for a company that had a tuition reimbursement programme for its employees, this would be fairly straightforward. I could just email and say, hi, I understand that you have a tuition reimbursement program.

Can I learn more about IT? Pretty simple. Let's say I work for a company that does not have such a program, so word for word script would be hi.

I'm considering in rolling in classes to help increase my performance and make me a stronger asset to the company. However, tuition is expensive, so i'd love to discuss the possibility of the company offering some help. Lots of businesses for tuition reimbursement, including some of our competitors as aggressive, including some of our competitors.

And i'd like to make the case that offering this benefit to all employees could be a big win for the company. Would you be available to talk about this? That's an aggressive ask.

Well, but it's really not really not because it's framing IT as as kind of a win win and it's changing IT from a from me asking for something for me to this is something that can help the company, right? This is something that our competitors do and something that, that if we looking to have if we were fighting over the same employee or same potential employee is is really about kind of helping the company understand what's in IT for them, right?

If you're recruiting for positions in your battling over the same employee, the same potential candidate as your competition is and your competition has a tuition reimbursing program, but years doesn't a significant thing. And so much of these conversations is about making IT a win win and saying, here's why this is good for the company. And that's true.

Whether you're talking about tuition reimbursement, entering, charitable donation matching, all of these things have positive impacts on the company. I think that sometimes when people would consider asking for these things, they may not necessarily want to do IT because they may fear the push back of you're not busy enough. Why are you bothering me with this? why? Why do I care? Focus on your job. And what I try to do in in the script is to switch that around and say, you know, this is something that's good for the company, and making me Better makes the company Better in this also has these other ramifications.

too. Now I noticed in the script IT talks about making this available for all employees. Why did you choose to put that in the script? Because when I hear that as an employer, what I immediately think is, wow.

Or the initial ask, which is, this is something that that you and I can work out, that initial ask is going to cost me maybe ten thousand dollars. But now if the ask gets appliqued to, can you make this available for all employees? Now you're asking me for something that's gona cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

But I think you can also look at IT the other way, where asking for yourself is can be viewed as kind of a selfish meme move. Whereas if you're asking for IT for everybody, then you're just seeing this as something that is a greater good. But that also then the way that you can pitch IT to the company as being valuable to them again in recruiting, in company morale in any number of ways. It's a significant thing. I think you're more likely to get a Better reception if you're looking at a broadly rather than just having IT be about me as an employer.

What I would say right off the bat would be, well, we need to hit our revenue goals. We need to have our certain sales goals. This money has to come from somewhere. So either we reallocate from some other portion of the budget or we need more revenue. It's gotta one of the two.

Yeah and that's understandable and that's why you end up needing to kind of make the broader case because maybe if you're needing to bring in more revenue or your team is struggling, it's because you're having a hard time are recruiting and because competitor a has a Better tuition reivers ment program or other sort of perks than you have and spending a little bit of that money in the tuition reimbursement frame may end up paying benefits in the longer term by helping you build a stronger team, a happier team like that. Certainly.

one way to go about IT as an employer, all of these things that I could spend money on that would allow us to improve our products, grow our reach and keep our team happy. IT seems like A A ditch request that has come from one person, but that they're asking to be applied to all. There's a very out of touch with an understanding of what our budget is and our understanding of what goes into budgetary decision making. Well.

I don't think there's any question if that the type of company and the overall demographics and various other aspects of the company would play a role into kind of how you go about this. Potentially, those points that you bring up are absolutely valid.

But if you are a bigger company that is struggling to rate, retain people or a lot of your employees are Young and really struggling financially and would be happier and more productive if you spent a little bit in terms of reimbursing sing their tuition when they're going back to college to improve their skills, that will eventually help the company in the long run. Those are all things that can make a difference to a company as well as we're seeing here. It's not a simple conversation and it's not something that is a guarantee win for you. But as anybody who is Priced out college in the last several years can attest, talking about lots and lots and lots of money, it's a conversation that I think can be worth having because IT can also potentially illuminate your fit within your current company. So there's all sorts of reasons to help the conversation, even though IT may not be the most comfortable.

Tell me more about how IT illuminates your fit within your current company.

Well, if it's something where you're already feeling overwork in your putting too much time in and then you ask for this thing and you get read the riot and then maybe that's another red flag that it's time for you to go.

What are some other red flags that it's time for you to go?

They always say that that people don't leave companies. They leave bosses. That's a really big thing. If you are in a place where you don't feel like there is any growth opportunity for you, certainly, if you are not happy in the role of your plane or you're overwork or whatever, and you feel like there is no room to grow, that can certainly be a red flag. That is time to go. And if you are somebody who does have some growth potential or or you see growth potential in that space and every time you ask for a new assignment or an extra assignment or kind of try and step your game up, a little bitch kind of get pushed back, that sort of thing can be a red flag as well. If you are asking for things that you think are reasonable, whether that is the fact that you haven't had a review in three years or you have found out through research that your salary is ten fifteen percent lower than what other people with your title or getting on average, that can certainly be a sign that it's time to go, especially if you have approached to people about that fact and gotten pushed back. That can certainly be one as well.

Other, they are asking open ended questions, which we've talked about. What are some of the other tactics that a person should be thinking about as their approaching conversations with employers around compensation and benefits?

Well, one of the best things that people can do is all play. And people may feel like silly about IT and think, why am I doing that? That so we can predict everything. But the simple act of acting out what a conversation is going to be with your boss or the person who are interviewing for a job with can help you anticipate some questions and help you feel a little more comfortable having those discussions.

That's something that, that people don't necessarily see as much value in as there is, where it's a situation where you can run through A A few different times where at the first time, the person who are talking to who should be a trusted friend, someone you can open up with or or relative, you run through at that first time and everything goes perfectly. You're just doing IT to kind of run through th Epaces a nd f eel g ood a bout y ourself. Maybe do IT a second time where the other person pushes back a little bit more, throws A A couple of couple of minor curve ball questions and then maybe you do at a third time and they really hammer.

Right， and just can get tough on you. It's similar to the sports idea of making the practice harder than the game. And again, you don't want to like beat somebody down physically that you don't want to beat somebody down emotionally and all that, but having having gone through that canos difficult situation, even just in play with somebody who you know well and are comfortable with, can help you at least mentally, emotionally prepare a little bit for if things might go sideways when you're talking with somebody.

So what would be an example of that, making the practice harder than the game? Would that be the bus? Finding all of the shortcomings .

in your performance, getting personal with you, calling you and grateful and saying, don't you know that we just fired these? This number of people in the company had the worst quarter that I had ten years. How dare you come to me and ask for these things? Who do you think you are? Stuff like that mean you can, you think, get as much into IT as you want? But really the the idea is to keep IT.

Where is still has value chances to hurt somebody? He's not going to rip you too hard in an interview, but just having a little bit of push back even where it's something a little lighter where the person may say, well, we didn't really anticipate you asking for a higher salary. I don't think there's anything that we can do. And i'm not really happy with the fact that you ask just and then you can kind of have those conversations as to how you kind of deal with that kind of thing. So you're thinking through different possible land mines that you might run across.

how would you deal with that if somebody said, hey, we weren't expect you to ask this and we're not prepared for that. And also, we're not happy that you asked.

well, IT really use a lot about knowing your worst and having done your homework. And if you're comfortable where you say, I know that I make seventy five thousand a year, but my role looked at blast door in places like that. And I saw that the average nationally is hundred thousand.

So I think that what I am asking is a reasonable request based on my research. How can we continue this discussion, that sort of thing? And so much of this is about doing your homework and knowing your worst.

And really one of the most interesting things, all I spoke with hundred and ten, hundred and twenty different people in writing the book. And one of the most interesting things that that came up in relation, especially to working salary stuff, is that the old idea of he or SHE, who gives the first number losses isn't really a thing. I anymore aged. That's awesome.

And it's about people going in and knowing their worth is not settling for being low balled, right? That, combined with the trend of salary transparency, gives people power my that our parents would have loved to have had because there's so much information and there is so much empowerment in being confident in us, in the research that you've done and your personal value to stand on that number regardless of what the other person says, right? It's a big deal, and it's something that older americans could certainly have benefit from when they were Younger.

I wish that I had been forceful and confident enough in myself, in my twice and theories coming up, that I had been willing to stand on those numbers. Sometimes every dollar you give up in your twin is dollars you have to make up later on, right? So it's, it's, it's a good thing, right? And .

particularly for people who are in there twice and third, they especially twice, they might not yet have the confidence, which is often born from experience, sure to be able to ask for more. That said, when is the right time to ask? Is that in december at the performance review period to typical year? And or are there opportunities throughout here?

IT really depends on the company in a lot of ways. I mean, one thing that I will say is that friday at five is not the time to ask, right? So in there are also ways to kind of plan to see IT a little bit and kind of figure out when time may be more right than others in your company.

Some companies have policies where they do reviews of of salaries and even titles once a year or main twice a or something like that. And if that's your company, then that may be kind of where you are, but at least you know that and you can prepare for that. Other companies, IT may be a little more fluid certainly in smaller startup sort of companies where there kind of wing in a little bit more, there may be more of an opportunity to wear if you have just been killing IT in business development or sales or whatever, and you've had unbelievable quarter or stretch of quarters.

And you can go to the boss and say, hey, this is what I did to the bottom line. I haven't gotten a raise in a little bit as the opportunity to talk. So IT really is about taking the time to kind of understand when your opportunity is because there's often times not a one size for all answer.

We started this conversation by highlighting the fact that every hero has these little, many negotiations throughout the day. So when you are talking to your spouse about who's going to pick up the kids from school, that itself is a little negotiation. What are the overarching principles of negotiation that can be drawn into those conversations such that we have Better relationship oriented negotiations?

So many times when you're dealing with relationships, it's just about being thought for and about setting yourself up for a situation where that negotiation is going to work out the best. Like there's example in in the book about somebody who was going to talk with talk about money with their partner for the first time in every time he tried to do IT, he was just like, go I don't want to do IT, I don't want to I he talking about money liba.

So IT became like a thing. Where is he just didn't want to talk about IT. So basically what he did was he took the approach of, okay, let's instead of kind of dropping this on you as being like and let's talk this afternoon, giving the person a little more runway and a little more time to where you can say him.

I really like to have this conversation, and I know now may not be the best time. Can we talk about IT next weekend or something once we're done with this homey model they were doing? Also just we assuring the person that you aren't going to be interrogating them over attacking them.

There's so much of that around money, conversation with relatives, elderly parents, significant others, all that sort of thing where when you talking to them for the first time, you're saying i'm not asking you for your baLances in your passwords to all your investments in checking in savings accounts. I just wanna a get a feel for what you think I can even be. Just come coffee stuff like party games, like if you got a million dollars tomorrow and you had to spend IT on something fun, what would you do? All of these little things, if you can do, to make the conversation as palatable and as unintimidating as you possibly can, is is really a good idea. I mean, really almost any kind of negotiation and what .

i'm hearing really, as you illustrate these examples, is not even so much about negotiation, but just these are what i'm hearing, your outline of principles of how you have constructive money conversations.

Yeah, I mean, cause cause IT really all starts with that. I mean, if you if the other person doesn't feel comfortable in that conversation, the negotiations not going to work. And so much of IT is about comfort and just feeling good about that spot, especially if you're talking about relationships where anybody has been in any length of relationship knows how important IT is to be open and honest and candid, but also understand.

right. What do you do then if you have a close relationship with someone and you're trying to agree on something money related, but to that person you feel is being obstinate .

suborn well IT IT depends on the individual topic conversation IT depends on how abstinent. Because the truth is that if your partner isn't willing to talk about money at all, you should probably run the other direction, that as bigger red flag as you get big, whose money is an aspect of everything in our relationships from very beginning to kids to retirement and everywhere in between. And if somebody is not ever willing to talk to you, we're very rarely willing to talk to you in any sort of constructive way about money. It's a really big red flag in terms of just kind of general, kind of budding your heads up against the wall kind of thing or some absence.

Sometimes IT can be as simple as living to fight another day, right where you just like I don't really think we're getting anywhere today, sleep on this and talk about tomorrow or or in a few days, because there is something to be said about the vibe of a moment, right where, whether that is in a room, is you're talking to your partner and all they're thinking about is all the stuff you've gotta do at work tomorrow or the fact that the kid got a behavior notice in third grade or whatever, and it's just a bad time IT. The same principal applies with customer service webs on the phone. Just because the person who you talk to that day didn't want to give you a break on your annual fee doesn't mean that the person you call forty eight hours later who sits in a different spot, the call center, what there's something to be said for just pulling IT back and saying, let's try this again another day and go from there if keep having to do that over over, over, over again, then that's a separate issue and that's something that you may have to take some bigger action on. But people shouldn't be frustrated too much or draw too many quick conclusions from a little bit of reluctance to talk.

Is that a common problem that were reluctant to talk for the avoidance of the subject? money?

Yeah, there is no question about IT. People just don't like to talk about money. IT makes them uncomfortable.

And that's part of why it's amazing that the salary transparency trend has come about. I know what's more personal than that. I and so I do think that, that you definitely have relationships where there's reluctance to talk.

And for some people, about money for someone is about kids can be any topic. But again, when IT is money, it's a big deal. And IT is something that you have to that you have to be kind about and even in to understand that progress can be progress even if it's small. And having those conversations and kind of building that sort of comfort with the person on the other side of the table or on the other end of the phone is an important step in building a relationship. And that that difficult conversation today may plant the seed for easier conversations in ten years or whatever.

No, so live to fight another day. And if its a long term relationship, make incremental progress.

Yeah, yeah. All of that stuff matters is not too different from paying off that right. It's about getting started is about having an end in mind and not getting too too hung up if things go up and down in side ways and all over the place, a timer or two.

So the long n trajectory matters more than short term volatility in that in that regards, like trying to body fatter, gain muscle .

yeah that's that's absolutely right. yeah. And one one of the other things that that in terms of negotiations I found interesting with that they would come up a few different times is is around values and who you are constable with negotiating with verses maybe not in like one example would be somebody who may not want to negotiate with small business, for example. They're perfectly fine negotiating with the giant chains or or big mega company, but the guy down the street who is got his beauty que store, whose margins are super tiny and who's trying to fight off wall mart, maybe you're not gonna hang le on Price with him necessarily. Sometimes people don't won't negotiate with artists.

Is there buying something on the street because, again, they know respecting the hustle, right? And in the margins and and that sort of thing, those sorts of things matter in yet also, things like if you go to a habitat for humanity, restore or a church, the first story, you onna taggle there, right? So there is something to be said for for picking your spots in these situations and letting how you handle these negotiations reflect your views as a person and in some of your values.

Yeah, there is a guy in cat man do who had this bathroom scale. And you could tell IT was like his only asset and he would hit on the sidewalk and with his bathroom scale and for for a few rupees, you could step on the scale and way yourself. yeah. And that's one of those like you pay asking Price and you pay a tip on top of IT because I respect that hustle like out the guy who's like I have nothing to my name but a bathroom scale and i'm going .

to monetized IT yeah people who have had nothing yeah, never forget that they once had nothing yeah, at least you would have hope that they wouldn't forget. And that that stuff, that stuff really matters.

Yes, exactly.

Another example is really when you are another example is when you know that you're going to be regularly using that person's service or visiting that place, it's a lot of times IT comes up. Where do you tip when you get take out in that sort of thing? And I always say that if you're going to be going back to that place and yeah, you should tip.

I generally tend to say you should tip regardless in those sort of situations. But if you have if you got really good service at your neighbor od restaurant, you're gna be back tip a little bit more if you know that you if you just bought a house and you know you have two things that you're gona need the handyman or contractor to do. Don't haggle him to death on the first thing you're going to try and work with him on because you're building that relationship and that will help you going forward. Those sorts of ways to to negotiate as like a relationship builder are important that something that even where you're talking about, like negotiating rent at the apartment, if you can sign a longer lease, that sort of stuff matters in that makes IT to wear, that landlord will look at you a little different way. Mean, a lot of IT is about kind of finding these little levers to pull in, buttons to push, whether you're talking about salary negotiation or any number of things.

And as I can tell you, i've had tenants who negotiate their rent and i've had tenants who will say, hey, i've taken really good care of the place. I've always paid my rent on time. There's never been any issue.

Here's a list of all of my positives, and i'm willing to sign a leaf for additional two years. Just one, can we discount the renton or to reflect the fact that i've been a good tenant? Abba, i've that tenants who have said that i've also this eventually only happened once and this wasn't a current tenant.

This was someone who was prospect was touring the place and he was trying to get me to come down on her end and he was like, well, I just think it's garbage that people tried to squeeze, you know, like he was basically like berating me and insulting me, going on this diatribe about how he felt like all landlords everywhere are extractive. Just try squeak as much money as they. That was his approach to asking me for a discount.

And I was like, I don't want na rink to you, you know and he was not attended. He was just a prospect who was touring the place. And I was like, well, good luck. Now people .

walk and see. Yes, we all have moments where. Things get away from us, right? But it's so much easier and so much more helpful in virtually every aspect of life to just not be a jerk to people here and not just go on and people and that is, people want to work with people that they like. People want to be around people that they like yeah and speed off to be buddies or anything like that. But if somebody is nicer and simple dies respectful to you and you're negotiating, if there's a bunch of people who are going in trying to rent an apartment or buy a house and you have some sort of reporter connection or you're just nice to that person can be a little checkmark in your column, IT may not may not win the day, specially if there's a big difference in in what somebody y's willing to pay or whatever, but that sort of stuff manners.

I think the distinction is a reflection of world view. Like the tenants who say, I take really good care of the property, I treat the property well and also i'm willing to sign a longer lease term.

So i'm reducing your risk of vacancy and turnover, right? They have a world view of creating A A mutual win win, right? Versus the person who says, oh, all landlords everywhere are extractive has a world view of a zero sum game yeah I think that that's the fundamental distinction between those two examples is, is IT a win, win world of view, where everyone gains more, the benefit grows for all of us? Or is IT a zero, some game in which one person's win is is another person's loss and and everything is a battle. That fundamental difference in worldview anchors not just the success of the negotiation, but the the quality of a person's life.

And when we were talking about red flags and stuff, when IT comes to companies, the way that the companies deal with their employees who ask for various things in the context of if I do this, my skills will improve, which will us help the company. And the other examples as well, if you get a lot of push back on that, then that can tell you a little bit about the company too, where maybe it's a little short sited, maybe IT lacks a little bit of perspective or whatever the case might be.

But I think that, that win, win we were talking about with with renters, that's true when you are talking if when you're negotiating with, again, a contract or a handy man, you say, hey, if you ask a little bit off of the Price, i'll write you a good review online. Little stuff like that in so many different aspects of life and even relationships, right? Where is simple? As you buy drinks for your friends one day, then the the next time you go out, somebody else picks IT up and IT goes around and just being nice, making sure that everybody wins, making sure that everybody feels good generally about the transaction tends to work out way Better than bully ying or just being a noxious or can going on a diet tribe like the person you talked about.

right? So going back to the tuition reimbursement example, that might be one of those, all right, the employee says, hey, would you reimburse tuition? The employer would, you know, would say, hey, can we get some kind of a guarantee that if we do, you will stay at this company for an additional two years so that we know that you're not going to take this class on our dime and then immediately quit one week later?

Yeah, yeah. And some of that may be based on what your studying, if you're a coder and you're going to get your english literature degree or or history or something, maybe they'll be like, so what do you do in here? Yeah but again, if you can kind of present IT in the context of helping the company and you being not a selfish person but somebody who is trying to do Better for themselves but also to help the company certainly, certainly helps.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for spending this time of us. Is there are anything that I haven't to ask about you want to emphasize.

The only thing that, that I would add is that people have way more power over their money.

Then they realize if people remember nothing else from this conversation from my book, it's it's that and people don't understand necessarily that they can ask for things, that they will be successful a lot of times when they ask for things, and that you do have power, because so many people feel completely powerless over their money in a million different ways. And they don't understand that there are some things that they can do. They can really help.

Some stuff may only help them get a forty dollar credit card, late fee waves, but other things can save them five figures with a house, or things like that. That power that you have is all about how companies view you and understanding that the longer you stick around, the more you spend money with the company, the more money they make off of you. So it's ultimately, in their interest, in most cases, to keep you around. And when you understand and that, that can really help you feel more empowered and help you realize that you're not being needed, your begging or being ungrateful or whatever the case might be, never underestimate your own power when IT come segment.

Never underestimate your own power when IT comes to your money. You have more power with your money than you realized. Thank you.

Thank you. This was fun.

Thank you, matt. What are three key takeaway that we got from this conversation? Key, take away.

Number one, you've got more power than you think. Here's something many people don't realize. Companies actually want to keep you around because long term customers are valuable. And once you get that IT totally changes how you approach asking for things as a customer, you've got leverage.

Banks and other businesses want to keep your business because they know that if you stick around, they're going to make more money off of you once you will internalize that idea of the importance of lifetime value and how business is view you in on IT changes the mindset to where you're not necessarily going in any more gravel saying, please, can I have this fee waved or whatever you're going in, in a position of power because they want you to stick around.

So remember your power as a consumer. That is the first key takeaway key. Take away. Number two, keep track of your wins. Even the small ones take five minutes each week to jot down what you've accomplished.

Because simple stuff like your regular duties, when done consistently, add up and go a long way. And then on top of that, make sure you know any time that you went the extra mile or helped out a colleague because these notes become gold. When it's time to talk about a race or a promotion.

if you once a week, take the time to note down all the things that you've done during that period, you can kind of build up this laundry list of things that you can then present to your supervisor the next time IT comes up for promotion or if you're just like i've been had a job of you in two years, it's time i'm bringing this up. It's a really simple stuff like your basic job duties. But then it's also things that you did that you went a little bit above and beyond.

That is the second key take away. Finally, key take away. Number three, make IT a win win. When you are asking for something, whether its tuition reimbursement or extra training, whatever you're asking for, show how IT helps the company, not just you. It's amazing how much more receptive people are when they see what's in IT for them.

too. So much of these conversations is about making IT a win win and saying here's why this is good for the company. And that's true. Whether you're talking about tuition reimbursement, entering, charitable donation matching, all of these things have positive impacts on the company.

I think that sometimes when people would consider asking for these things, they may not necessarily want to do IT, because they may fear the push back of, you're not busy enough. Why are you bothering me with this? why? Why do I care? Focus on your job and what I try to do in in the script is to switch that around and say, yeah, this is something that's good for the company and making me Better makes the company Better.

That is the third and final key take away from this conversation with mat shouldn't thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoy today's epsom, please do three things. Number one, share with a friend, a family member, neighbor or colleague.

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