What the Crypto Shift Means for Your Money, with Tatiana Koffman
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Today i'm bringing you a conversation that can divide rooms fast than almost any other topic in the world of finance. And that is a conversation on gypt currency. If you want to illicit a strong response from anyone, just mention crypto at a dinner party.

Because some folks are gonna get super enthusiastic and others are going to roll their eyes so hard, I will get stuck in the back of their head. Crypto is one of those topics where many people have automatic nature reactions. Here, either a total skeptic or you're a total enthusiasts is an incredibly polarizing topic.

But here's the reality. Whether you a believer or skeptic, the reality is that crypto currency is a significant player in our financial landscape, and we cannot ignore IT. So whether or not you planned to the bycatch pto currency understanding IT, just add a minimum understanding IT is a core piece of financial literacy.

By definition, it's impossible to have an informed to take on something if you lack information about IT. And so today's episode is intended to build your financial literacy by bringing you more information about an asset class that is becoming a bigger and bigger player in the financial landscape. Welcome to the afford anything podcast, the show that understands you can afford anything, but not everything.

Every choice Carries a trade off, and that applies not just to your money, but to your time, your focus, your energy, your attention to any limited resource you need to manage. So what matters most, and how do you make choices accordingly? Those are the two questions that this podcast, solbes, we cover five pillars, financial psychology, increasing your income, investing real estate and entrepreneur.

Ship is double eye e. And today's episode pertains to the third I, investing with a focus on the sub category of gypt, or currency to aid. In this discussion, I have invited Tatiana kf.

Men to be our guest on today's episode. Attiya is a general partner at the digital assets investment firm moonWalker capital. She's also the author of the myth of money.

SHE has enormous knowledge about the current cyp tor currency landscape, about its evolving role in global finance and about where this technology might be headed. In our upcoming conversation, we discuss everything from why bitcoin might be considered digital property to what happened behind the scenes during the F, T. X.

collapse. We discuss l salvor, dubai, south arabia, africa. We talk about the distinction between meme coins and serious investments. SHE explains what makes bitcoin unique from other crypto currencies and SHE shares. Practical advice for ordinary investors who might be crypto curious.

Now at one point, our conversation, we hit a discussion about inflation rates, and SHE expressed a feeling that many americans share, which is that the official inflation numbers don't feel like they match their daily reality. Certainly, feelings are valid. The stress and the frustration, the worry that relates to those economic conditions.

That's enormously valid. But I, as your host, believe we need to separate feelings which are valid from factual claims that need solid evidence. What afford anything stands for the core corner stone of this brand is to think from first principles and to ground our discussions in evidence.

Numbers are numbers, feelings are feelings, and both matter, but they serve different purposes. I tell you this because it's rare that I push back on a guest. I'm here to listen. But when IT begins to cross beyond what is known, then my job as your host is to clarify what constitutes a feeling and what constitutes a fact, and to never let the two conflate. Now, thinking from first principles does mean that I have no attachment to a given outcome.

If there is any evidence, even a shred of evidence whatsoever, that the bureau labour statistics made up any of the numbers that they reported, man, i'd be the first in line to be taking a look at that. I would read the full report but currently there is no evidence of that. So with that lynnley disclaim er out of the way, I do hope you get a lot of value out of this episode because we cover many, many topics around crypto currency.

And I believe that this episode will help you understand the crypto landscape because crypto is a force that is absolutely fundamentally reshaping our financial world, and it's very much worth learning about. So with that said, here is totty on a ahman enjoy. Tatiana, you often say that crypto currency is a caricature of real life. What do you mean by that?

When we look at the traditional financial markets, we experience certain types of volatility and certain types of craziness. And I feel that with cypher currency, we have all of that but times a hundred, right? So the volatilities that much crazier, the risk appetite is that much crazy. The opportunity for insider machinations is much crazier. And so you have to be a little bit more cautious when you're participating in the gypt to currency markets because IT takes what we have in the real world and exacerbates IT and kind of puts IT on to a different level.

right? Given that huge volatility and all of that risk, why would a person why would an ordinary individual want to have gypt to currency as part of their portfolio?

I think what we're going through right now is a major title shift, and it's been happening for a little while. You know, bitcoin has introduced in two thousand and nine and then thousands and tens of thousands of carpal currency afterwards. And what you are seeing right now is an overhaul of the entire financial system.

And usually when these types of overhauls happen, it's a little bit of a wild, wild west, right? So when you think back to how amErica was created, when people came and they were looking for gold and natural resources and they were creating railroads, the people who came earlier, and we're able to stomach the volatility and the lack of regulation at often times, or the people that actually were the most successful and created generational wealth. And so this is an opportunity. Now would say we're actually at the tail end of this title shift that's been happening over the last fifteen years because bitcoin is now a regulated asset that is part of etf, and we're about to see positive regulation with this new administration for the rest of these assets. This is kind of the last opportunity that retail investors are going to have to participate in these outsized returns before everything gets absorbed into the traditional wall street at system and the returns become no dollars and sense rather than what people are saying now.

Well, we've seen history ally through all of the booming bus cycles of big one over the last fifteen years. Outsides returns cupboard with outsides glosses. IT strikes me when we discuss those that that discussion inherently is dollar denominated. So when we discuss the value of bitcoin, we talk about IT in dollar denominated terminal gy, but isn't the point of bit going to be separate and distinct t from fir currency?

absolutely. Two answers to that question. The first is bitcoin is one of the best performing assets of all time. So even with all of the volatility, if you look at the chart, it's really been up only for fifteen years, and IT is position to continue to do well over the next couple of years.

The second thing is IT is a very interesting conversation when you try to ask people what they want to domain ate their wealth. And so we're kind of going through that shift right now where people aren't quite ready to dominate their wetheral bitcoin, but they're ready starting to think that way. Traditionally, when you define money, when economists define money, they define IT in three parts.

It's a method of exchange, it's a unit of account and it's a store of value. And somehow we've just accepted IT as a truism that all those three things are present in all of money. And it's not true.

There's thousands of methods of exchange around the world. Every currency, stable or not, if it's used somewhere, is the method exchange. There's only a handful of unit of accounts. So in terms of stable unit of accounts, I would say there is the dollar, there is the euro, there is the chinese un, maybe the japanese yen. So that's for and maybe we're adding that .

point right now as a first just just why won something like the tie butt or the shop a the unity of account?

Because there's a very little faith in the stability of its value. When I say unit of account is, what do I measure my wealth? So i've made a bunch of money.

What do I measure that in? Or I I own a building that's worth as n amount. Or I own a business that's own a stern amount.

My families from eastern europe, we didn't measure our wealth and rubles. That would just be silly. You always measured your dollars.

And so most of the world actually defaults to the dollar and if not the dollar, than one of these other major currencies that i've mentioned. So there is really only four global units of account. But when you talk about store of value, none of these things surfaces a store of value.

No american billionaire is storing value in cash. They're storing value in buildings and businesses and sports teams in gold and all of these things. And so in that sense, bakin becomes digital property.

It's property, like all of these other stores of value, but Better because it's easily transferable. You can move IT across borders very seamlessly. You can buy IT and sell IT at will for is trying to buy and sell building, and you can easily pass IT to other people.

And so IT becomes property, but Better. And so we're actually going to see a lot of people who traditionally, I really state in the U. S. Or in canada, especially wealthy buyers from around the world were trying to find a safe place to save harbor for their wealth. They're just gonna store .

IT in bitcoin. But bitch coin itself doesn't have any intrinsic value. Its value only, and so far is collectively, a group of people believe that IT has value. So how can IT then have sufficient faith in IT as a storm of value?

I will answer your question with a question. How do we believe that there is value in any of the other things?

sure. So certain things are income producing. So real state, for example, is income producing in that people occupy that piece of real state and pay a rental fee in the order to occupy that building. Similarly, a business like a coca cola has an income stream because IT sells cans and bottles of coca cola and other products and has some type of an income stream that IT .

generates as a result. What about other things that are more kintail? C coin, like gold or silver or the U. S. dollar.

So those are speculative.

All of those things are considered store value by many people. And and then of the day we ascribe value to gold because we perceive IT to have value the same with silver and all of these other things. I think book coin derives its value from a very different equation then all of these other things.

And that's math, right? So it's programmable money. It's programmed to be scarce. See, you only have twenty one million coins. The other thing that's really, really interesting with bitcoin is, if you think about how you mind gold, the global gold reserves are harder and harder to find.

IT now takes, you know, extensive serving excavation energy to mind one ounce of gold infinitely more than I did ten years, fifty years ago, one hundred years ago during the gold rush. And so because of that goal, is perceived to be more more scars, but also it's more and more expensive to produce an out of gold. And so as a result, the floor, the Price floor of gold keeps going up and up every year.

Bitcoin has a very similar mechanism. The way its programmed is every four years, IT becomes more and more difficult to mine a new bitcoin. IT becomes more and more expensive because the equations become that much harder to verify and mine coins, which requires more energy and more equipment, so the floor keeps grown up and up and up, and the production of bitcoin becomes slower and slower and slower as IT becomes more and more expensive.

So the result that floor keeps going up today to mine of equine costs at least fifty thousand dollars, at least fifty thousand hours. So that is the floor Price. Anything above that? Speculation of all, we think is gonna go here.

So therefore, we're gonna run up the Price. But there is a floor of wit. There is, you know, a decade ago, IT costs dollars, little dollar s so every four years it's just exponentially become more and more and more difficult to create one backline.

right? And think that you're ferry to every four years that's referred to as a having event.

yes. So every four years, there's a programmable of event in the code called the big coin, having we just had one earlier this spring. You at the same time, we also had the big quality of approval. And so combined, we had to run up to seventy four k during that time, and then we had to cool off. And now where on the next .

like go once the twenty one million bitcoin have been mind, right, which is the maximum amount, big coin that will ever exist, why wouldn't people, as a collective, move onto a thurium or any other type currency?

A theory actually has moved away from proof of work, which is what I described, the mechanism of mining, and actually needing servers and energy. And it's moved away from that to proof of mistake, which doesn't make IT a good candidate for money. So a there is great as a supercomputer.

It's more of a network that you can build things on, store information, share information, create third party transactions without middle man, that type of thing. So a theoria will continue to have a role and a theoria competitions will continue to have a role in this new world that we're building. The bitcoin is the first and real true digital storm of value. Why wouldn't .

people simply move on to any other proof work type of the coin?

The answer to that is bitcoin was built in a very, very beautiful and eloquent way. IT was created by either one engineer team of engineers because commodo, obviously, there's a lot of speculations and documentaries about who IT could be, but IT hasn't really been proven. IT is, and it's I think it's really beautiful that the founder of this stepped away.

He created something truly beautiful that hasn't been hacked. And IT gives you the ethos that almost mythical nature of a commodity, rather than a project that was run by a human being that has a man behind IT. So it's become this fully, truly decentralized digital currency, which we haven't seen before because even though we have tens of thousands of other currencies in the market today, none of them act a kin traditional gold.

But what does its mode though? I mean, certainly many people could do something similar to what the oshana oto did in designing something that's beautiful and that does not have a particular myth. The founder, based around IT.

Well, not everyone can do with heated because what heated was actually technically very, very difficult and exceptional, but also they haven't. I mean, they answered to your question is anyone can go and issue with another paper currency, right? To half people actually want to use IT.

IT requires a certain type of buying. And so we're having economic buying, which is really important. This isn't just. You know anybody can do IT. We're having buying from regulators, we're having buying from blocks rock.

We're having buying from sovereign wealth funds or having global adoption, which is one of the most important things in a network. It's only as valuable as its network. So when you look at something like facebook, for example, the value of facebook isn't in its assets. The value of facebook is its in its users. The fact that bitcoin has now become this prolific thing is really what makes IT defensible against all of these other competence.

So massive option .

is really action. The technological process and massive aopa, I would say, are the two things .

you mentioned earlier that biton can now be traded in etf. There's more integration with bitcoin and what i'll call traditional finance. How important is that in in terms of that massive option? And in what ways is IT poys to continue? So I think it's .

incredibly important. I think one of the biggest areas between bitcoin adoption and the regular consumer and the retail investor has just been the difficulty of self custody IT.

So self custody is a really beautiful thing, and it's something that I practice personally and highly recommend to people who can figure out how to do IT safely in self custody just means that you actually store your own coins on the network using a cold wallet like a alleger treasure. IT allows you restore your funds independently from financial institutions in the government. And it's really at the core of the ethos of what we believe in is big quinn's.

However, to assume that everyone can go through that process is a little bit naive. Until recently, the best alternative we had was coined this as a blue tip way for you to store your funds creating a wallet. And you know there's someone on there other under the line, if you have an issue and need to call for help, where with self custody, you don't have that.

But even that was difficult for people, and a lot of people got hugging or lost their passwords and on and so forth. And so now that you have a big coin T F, many big coin etf, and then you have other companies like microstrip gy, you are mining stocks and all of these other things that derive their value from bit in, you can buy those within your rough I R A or within your regular stock portfolio on your robot head. And it's created that much, much easier, greater access, particularly for those of us that want to invest for the long term in our tax free savings accounts, right? So IT opened up this whole new pool.

Jack Morgan chase actually announced several months ago that they were hiring fifteen thousand advisers to pitch big twining t fs. To their retail clients. So that's a huge vote for adoption right there, right?

And that's quite surprising because jme diamond was known for his dismay of IT coin crypt to currency in general.

Well, through this funny, everyone disdains everything until IT starts making the money and then they're becoming big fans. For a while, I was threatening to his business model, so he expressed his disdain. Now he's figured out how to make IT work for his business model, so now he's on board. It's just a simple as that.

He was also, though, very involved with the collapse of silicon valley bank. He was very involved in that that bail out and picking up the pieces, all of that. Can you talk about how that whole episode was kind of related? How did that flow into where we are now?

It's so interesting because when S. U. B collapsed, there were source signal bank and there was a couple of days, small ones that were hurting during that time, everyone blamed cyp to, but I actually had nothing to do with crypto and crypt to was hurting as a result of what was happening with those banks.

But the reason those banks were collapsing as because they had a clout problem during a period when we had zero percent interest strates as a result of covered, they were significantly encouraged to buy bonds at nine percent that were then subsequently devalued. When rates one up, they weren't marking that on their baLance sheet and then eventually they had to mark those bonds on the baLance sheet. So their colleran was much, much lower than what was expected of them.

Once I started spreading that they might not have enough capital on their books, there was sort of a run on the banks that was orchestrate by silicon valley. And it's just really interesting now because back in the day when you had to run on the banks, I took a minute, you know, I had to tell you that I thought maybe something was wrong with her being that you had to tell someone else and that person told someone else, and then eventually something would appear in the per three days later, and I would just IT would take a minute. And now it's so easy because I can just send you a dm, and you can send someone else a dm, and then you go into a chat group and everything just can go like wildfire within hours.

What was really interesting and how IT actually ended a parting crypto aside from silicon and valley. So obviously, many, many to companies were banking with S. V.

B. And first of republic was hurting during that time. A lot of these banks, they were banking really the technology sector, which was very, very scary for you know, the founder community.

But they were also banking the reserves for USD c. So coin base h has a spin off company called circle, which is its own now stand alone entity and circle issues, one of two major stable coins called U. S, D, C.

So there is used. D, T, which is to them, which cantera stalled. Actually, IT was the new day, about five percent of which is notable because their CEO is now being appointed to the cabinet for trump.

So very bullish. But U S D C is the other major stable coin that a lot of capital encrypt to flows through. And how U D C works is they basically take your dollars and they issue you an I O U called U S.

D C, right? So you give me ten dollars. I gave you ten coupons. A mark. U. S, D, C, and is an incredibly profitable business because what they do on another end with a cash is they put IT into the bank, and then they buy treasury's with IT.

So on a float of eighty billion dollars, they now can clip a five percent coupon, or four and a half percent coupon on us. treasuries. And they have to hold a portion of that, obviously, in liquid and bank accounts.

So U. S. D. C. Circle was spreading the amounts across different banks, including silicon value bank and signature and a lot of these banks.

And so when there was a run on those banks, U. S, D, C started to the peg from the dollar. So people started to lose faith, temporary, that those I O U.

Coupons were actually going to be worth a dollar because what if the cash that SAT behind those disappeared? And so we dropped almost to eighty cents on the dollar one evening when this crisis was happening. But cyp to didn't cause the run on the banks, the actual collator structure of the banks that had nothing to crypto, what caused IT.

And then IT hurt crypto at a time when crypto was already not doing well because of luna N F T X in three hours capital. And this added fuel to the fire. So I think crypto just becomes a really easy escape go these days by a lot of the regulators, which are thankfully all leaving office now, including gary gangs lor, because critter was not the problem in that situation at all.

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Let's go to gary gansler. Why is he so hated in the crypto community up?

Because he's a pain in all of her behind. Gary just he has a very, very anti crypto stance. So a lot of the things that he's proposed have been anti innovation.

So the crux of this whole regulatory debate is whether crypt of currencies are securities. So there is something called to how we test, which we apply to see. And you know, IT has to do, if you are investing in something with the expectation of profit, that makes IT a security.

So as talk is a security, a bond is a security and tf is a security, right, you're investing in something with expected of profit. A lot of these crypt to tokens were created. Sure, people gamble on them because they want to create a profit, but they're real use behind a lot of these crypto currencies is actually not about creating a profit.

It's about creating a utility within a network. They're almost like air miles tokens within a close network that you need to perform a certain function, usually some sort of technical function. And gary kept china regulate them, our securities, which means that a lot of the issuances of those tokens would be illegal.

A lot of the platforms that allow the buying and selling of those tokens would be Operating without a license. IT threatened the industry in a really, really big way. And the persecuted also a lot of people as a result. So I think there needs to be some regulatory framework, but IT needs to be a reasonable so that people can participate.

I think at that of the day, the debate that simmering underneath that's not talked about as much is the ability for retail to make real profits, right? So we have these accredited and investors, which require you to have a certain amount of wealth to be able to participate any unique and new innovative opportunities, which leaves regular people who are working really hard for their money in one invest and also profitable opportunities they leave them out of in the court. And crypto currency created this new age frontier where they could come in and they could play with mean coins or they can invest in networks at a much, much earlier stage at a seed or start up level, and they're able to create these like twenty x returns and fifty x returns.

I think it's beautiful that a lot of retail investors got those types of opportunities because if you look at that type of investing in the public markets, usually there is a venture capital company. They will you know, we'll do A C, it'll do a serious A, B, C, D, F, G, then they'll go into the public markets at a twenty some billion dollar valuation. And then you, as a retail investor, can invest, well, how much upside is there at that point? Sometimes stocks still do okay. You know, if you invested in apple early on ten, twenty years ago, you still would have done OK. But for the most part, by the time these stocks get to the public markets, you are happy within eight to ten percent return.

right? And that is because early stage investors, you know v and Angel investors do bear a pretty significant amount of risk, and many of the projects that they invest in go to zero.

And so the conversation is, should we be allowed to choose the risk that we want to bear, why do I want to be identified by my government to tell me what I can and cannot invest? right? So that's the debate. How much do we protect investors and how much do we call to them? I think most investors would rather have the opportunity to choose than to not.

right? If crypto is not regulated as a security a, you mentioned earlier that IT has a utility value, would IT be regulated, what else would IT be regulated as would IT be more in to almost what I think of that? I think of IT is analogous to a foreign currency.

Is that similar to a four x investing with a foreign rents? Y I, your converting U S. Dollars into an alternate form of currency that lives inside of its own currency ecosystem.

I think currency is a little bit misleading. It's almost it's more of copal token because when you're saying currency, my mind office goes to money, right? And currency is money of a certain country.

And so a lot of these things aren't really currencies. There are tokens and token s are used for different things. So bitcoin is regulated, is regulated by the C F, T C as a commodity.

A theory um is not regulated as a security. It's been debated in government quite a bit. Gz ler wanted to call IT a security. But I think the utility value for a theory um isn't incredibly obvious because there are so many things that are currently being built on a theory.

You basically need to buy a theory um to build on a theory and to create and run things on top of a theory um so there is a definitely utility case for a theory um when IT comes to other things, there will be a framework that is created. So some of these things are securities. So there's this new category, R W A tokens, which give you profit from real world assets.

And those should be securities and they should be sold on platforms that have a license because you're buying a piece of a business or A P is of a building or a piece of an asset that generates a profit, right? So that is a security. But then other things which are more into a theory um which you need to Operate within a network should be more of a technology token that you need to know code and Operate on the network.

Those things should not be security. So there will be a new framework created where we will have new subdivisions. And I think under this new administration, it's actually really, really exciting. I think they're talking to the CEO of coin base and a lot of really incredible leaders in the space on to how to practically regulate these types of different critical tokens.

Will we start seeing crypto as a payment method option in more instances of our data? Day lives when we're buying coffee, when we're buying A A newspaper or a burger?

yes. So that's a really interesting question. I think personally, we're just going to use stable coins.

So IT is gonna USD denominated crypto currency, which is USD c or usdt. And I think other countries will have their own stable coins dominate for their currency. And it's actually very, very useful tool.

The government, in terms of being able to charge taxes and tracks, are in types of transactions and just make the flow of capital much, much more efficient and much more regulated to the ext that IT needs to be regulated. However, when he comes to bitcoin, bitcoin on its own doesn't make sense to buy things like a cup of coffee. It's just too expensive.

IT makes sense through other alternative layers like the lightning network. So if you go to a place like all sad, or for example, which ever extensively about, they do have a place called bitcoin beach and they do transact and bitcoin, and they do IT on the lightning network, which is kind of like a layer to on top of big wine that makes IT cheaper and faster and much more practical. There will be pockets of the world that will you to transaction that way.

I don't know that it's really needed if you have stable coins that sits in your digital wallet. You look at somewhere like china, for example. They basically transacted now through a digital stable coin.

So they have the digital rupee, which is interacted to. We chat and a lot of their wallets and apps, they're basically cashless society. Now you can just go and scan. So I I see us doing that maybe in a few years, but not necessarily saying, okay.

let me go spend my bitch coin on the coffee, right? I was in china less spring, and I was actually shocked by that. I was there for two weeks. I did not see a single paper or coin currency at all. Often times as when I travel, I like to save a rupee or a bot, or you know, I like to save some of those as, like souvenir.

And these are collectively now.

And in china, I was like, I literally don't know what their currency looks like. Having been here for two weeks, yeah, everything was completely .

digitized.

Beautiful he was. I mean, IT. The prospect of losing my phone frightened me because, man, there's there's no back up.

You should always .

have a backup one.

I think it's beautiful. I think also kind of scary for people because it's a privacy concern. So if you are transacting digitally with everything, then people contract your transactions.

But my view on that is if you have nothing to hide, who cares? Who cares if the government can see where you bought your coffee that day? Like IT really shouted matter.

People talk about how bitcoin is used for all of these like illicit activities. But really, it's bags of cash use realistic activities. Most crime takes place with physical cash being dropped off places.

And so actually, if you can eliminate the cash out of the system, you can eliminate a lot of crime. That right? right?

But I certainly sympathetic to, on principle, you want privacy. And certainly there could be times in the future where perhaps you are gay, lesbian, in a country where in a country that has penalties, legal penalties around that, and you might not want somebody knowing that you spent money at a gay bar.

Yeah, the world is a work in progress. Bitcoin, in that sense, is the private money in that situation. Then, you know, i've interview ed, a lot of people who've had to run, for whatever reason, from lebanon, ukraine, E A lot of these places. And the reason they're able able to take any wealth out whatsoever is because they store some of IT in the coin.

And and that sense, you can just memorize your seed phrase and you can leave right if you can get out verses if you try to run with gold bricks, or bonds, or stocks, or trans for something out of your bank account, those things are not feasible. So bitcoin is free money. In that chance.

you set seed phrase. Can you describe what a seed phrases?

sure. So on the network, on the big coin network, you create a wallet. That wallet will have twenty four words that will give you access to IT, and they're renomme generated.

And you write them down somewhere. You put them somewhere safe. And safety deposit box, for example, usually is recommended that you split IT into at least two parts and hide half somewhere, and hide half somewhere else.

You can also memorize IT. And so in situations of war, people have run with IT just basically in their head. And then it's also recommended that you have a cold wallet to pair with IT that way day to day.

For example, if you have a letter, you have A A pin code on IT, and that's much easier to kind of go in and out and transfer things as you need. And then long term, if you use your letter or you know you don't have anything with you, then you have your seed phrase memorized or stored somewhere safely to restore that from the network. But then for your regular daily activities, I would keep that on a hot wallet.

So coin base has a hot wallet. Meta ask is an example of a hot wallet. There are several hot wallet out there.

There's lightning network wallet as well. So you can go and can those for coffee. If you're an elva to or something like that, it's almost like there's three levels of security here.

One is like, this is my long term wealth. I don't want to touch IT. I want to just stock away as far as possible as safely possible.

That's on your seed phrase. Medium term, I would use a ledger to access that. And then short term, I would keep a certain amount of money on a hot wallet. That's the least secure, but that's the easiest to transact roath.

right? And when you say ledger for that medium term, you are free to a cold wallet.

yes. So ledges a brand. It's just happens to be what I use. This is not an out or just happens to be what I use, but people use trusses is know dozens of different brands. So letter is one of the ones but let's say, letter and treasure are the ones that have been around the longest, right? It's kind of I use be key looking thing .

but it's not quite yeah I one and i'm terrified of losing IT.

But the thing is, if you lose IT, it's okay because if you lose IT, as long as you have your seed phrase, you can just open up a brand new one and you can restore that wallet until a new leger.

Can you talk about what has happened? You know what else solve or formally recognized by coin as a legal tender a few years ago? How has that changed the economy there? Also there is boing.

like they've had so many warnings from the M F in the world bank that they're going to default on their loans and they're going to collapse. And the know the world gave them all these scare tactics and they're just booming like they're buying a bit coin day. They've been buying all through the bear markets.

So their entire treasury is like three ex right now. They repaid all their loans. They created attacks, free tech hub and sense overall that a lot of people are moving to now.

I mean, okay, I like I think he just crushed IT. He crushed IT. You know the president of argentina is looking to do something similar now in terms of like his innovative policies there.

So I think what you're seeing is a lot of the south amErica and central amErica is now saying, okay, we've been at the mercy of the american dollar system for so long and at the mercy of their economic policy and our federal reserve. In what we said here, they want to be independent, and they want the value of their economy to be attached to something else. That's not just america.

And so this is a way for them to have an alternative because, as history has shown, usually their currencies are not so stable. The argentinean pao has a very violent history of of hyperinflation, right? And so for them, they said, you know, going back to the unit of account, the pressure would have never been the unit of account, right? Anyone wealthy and argentina, or an, the door is counting their money and dollars, not in passo. So this gives them an alternative to that.

What's happening right now in dubai know you are just there recently?

yes. So I spent most have covered into by very, very fond of the innovation that's taking place there, very particular place. So they actually recently legalize payments and crypto currencies, which great, they have a very robust framework for exchanges.

And it's not just to buy dubai, just a part of the U A E S. U A E more generally. So between an abedi in dubai, there's a lot of incredible regulation that's coming out, and you'll see a lot of the companies and exchanges that have moved there.

So finances now set up there. For example, a lot of people are moving their businesses there because they feel that it's more friendly, especially you, given how aggressive gangs ler has been over here, right? And that's part of the problem.

So we're having an incredible brain drain. We are not only do we have fairly high taxes in this country, but we now have regulation that's really prohibitive to try new things. And it's not just prohibitive of like you might not be able to run your business is prohibitive in a way of you can start a business at the risk of ending up jail.

That's a pretty scary thing for a lot of people, all right. So if they want to build a business in the space, often times we're looking at other places to go to. And so i'm really hopeful that with this, new administration will be able to create a workable system and a lot of those companies will come back and the new companies won't have a reason to leave.

I've just asked about to buy and the U. A more broadly mentioned on the garby, but family arabia is trying to emerge as a player. What is the scene in riad?

I have inventory out. I have a lot of friends there, so really excited to go and visit sometime. Saudi is modernizing.

It's really, really incredible to see because even five years ago, when I was talking to my peers, female executives, and they would go there, they would give me whole stories of how they would have to behave, or what they have to wear, or who they could sit next to and things like that. And so it's really, really becoming a much more modern place they are building. The alcohol restrictions are becoming loser.

Women can start to wear more, more than clothing and drive and do all these things right? If you look at dub, dubai is created initial blueprint dubai abi arabi. Is this kind of dim, your classy place? It's modern, as in the women are allowed to do anything that they want to do.

But it's demure, right? So cover your holders and when you're in a all kind of thing due is not demure. You know.

dubai like the thailand, yeah.

dubai's like vegas of the middle east is what I called IT in my book. So you know, girls walking on the street with kenney beach, fels look quite the night life. So if you want that experience, you can go to dubai. But I think arbi abi is still a place where, you know, I can go dress like myself, go for a nice dinner.

I'm just like a little bit mindful of like Mabel throw shower over my shoulders or something like that wait to me, I think is like a very culturally reasonable request when you're in a foreign country to be respectful of where you are. So I think saudi is heading, hopefully, that ab bedi direction. We don't need IT to be heading in the dubai direction. But in now bidborough tion where I as a foreign an can come and have a business meeting and feel comfortable.

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There's a lot of talk about africa being the continent that is likely to really embrace crypto currency adoption. And a big part of that is partially the population of africa is very Young. Huge portion of the populations under to twenty five and also partially many are unbanked and have only mobile phones as their primary method, interacting with one another and with the world.

What is the crypt o currency footprint on the contents of africa so far? Are there any particular nations inside of that that stand out as places where cyp to is particularly flourishing? And by contrast, there there are any particular places .

where it's not sure. So I took a little two of africa last few years. It's been really interesting to see. So I would say nigeria is the hungriest for the type of innovation and the reason wise because they really don't have a stable banking system or a stable currency. But unfortunately, there's also a really thick layer of corruption.

There has been really hard for companies to innovate and build a nigeria, even though the market is hungry for IT. A lot of times, the Young people will come to more the decentralized mark places so they'll trade on dex is through defy, and we talk more about that later. But you know places where they can show up anonymous ly and participate in crypto economies.

And for them, it's it's a lifeline for many of them, it's a way for them to participate in the global marketplace in a way that they couldn't before because those people they don't have access to the american stock markets. Like we said earlier, the returns in the stock market aren't always that great versus and cyp to. They can start with a very small amount of money.

Sometimes they can start with no money because a lot of a lot of networks out there will give you air drops, which is if you're coming on and in your testing something and you're an earlier adopt her, you'll get kind of a gift of a few tokens here and there. And so we'll start with nothing. Then they will accumulate all these gift tokens.

Then they will take them into something. They'll take them into something else. And long behold, the really talented at ones have been able to trade nothing. Two million dollars, you know, are millions of dollars.

So for people that, you know, they don't have a lot of opportunity, domestic, cally, this is a way for them to engage globally, especially for those that are brilliant and talented. And that's really wonderful to see. Kenya has had a more moderate approach.

Kenya has a lot of regulation left from colonial times from when I was under britain. IT has a bit more of a stable system. It's still in africa, so so has certain growth aspects to IT.

However, they have mobile money, so they don't have as much of like a need for data day stable transactions they have in place a for that. But they're innovating and trying to integrate a money in the otherways. Ethiopia is a really interesting place.

Cardono is a lot of work in thoph. A cardono is one of the big players in the cypher currency space, and they are actually like finding ways for people to make everyday payments. And cardona for things like utilities, which is really need to see south africa has been looking into crp tou as well.

I'm not i'm not sure what the latest is there. But when I was there me before five years ago, I know the presidential family was very, very involved in the innovation there, and they were throwing conferences and inviting global leaders in the space to come and speak and find ways innovating in the country. So again, I think africa also doesn't want to be beholden to the U.

S. And to our currency. So they want to find a different way to engage with the world economic over the last few years, in particular.

Unfortunately, africa is parts of IT are citing with china and russia because of all of these economic sanctions. So you have bricks, which is meant to be an alternative alliance to what we have here is an economic union. And they're talking about creating their own currency, but unlikely to happen.

Yeah, yeah. I've been reading about that. They are trying to build their own payment rails to create some type of an alternative currency that they are hoping will be the world's new reserve currency, at least an alternative reserve .

currency creating a stable currency is really, really hard. I think people just seem that money is fine everywhere, and it's just not creating something that stable that doesn't hydrate away. It's just incredibly difficult.

And so history has shown that unless you back your currency by something like gold, your currency will lin fate at various rates. So the currency in amErica also inflates, but we're trying to keep that to moderate amount. Although the last two years have been not great for inflation in america. I think you we're reporting at three percent now or .

somewhere october.

Do you feel that it's two point six? When you go to the grocery store, do you feel that it's two point six? When you look at the real type Prices, do you feel at two point six? When you look at the rest of because I feel like it's much hier than two point six.

Two point six is the current rate. So if you're driving a vehicle down the road, right, that vehicle was accelerated at sixty miles power. Now the vehicle is accelerating at twenty miles power.

That vehicle has still traveled down the road. So the inflation rate, which is the rate at which that vehicle is travelling, is two point six. The Prices are higher because in previous years, you know in twenty twenty two, in two thousand twenty three, the inflation rate was higher. And those Prices are fixed because we don't live in a deflationary environment.

That's a really great explainer. I still don't think it's two point sex even if you're just looking at inflation growth, I don't think it's two point six. And the way they called te inflation, a lot of times they'll take out things that are incredibly high because they're consider that an outlier. But it'll be things that really move the needle le for people you know like the Price of food. So when you take up certain items out of the basket from there, you're not giving people a full calculation.

But both core CPI as well as you're talking about the difference between core CPI, which strips out food and fuel versus more broad C P I. But when you look at all of the indicators, C P I, core C P I, P P I, um when you look at that whole basket of indicators, we do have a low inflation rate.

I just don't think it's true. I don't think that the reporting that we're getting in terms of C P I and core C P I ppi, I don't think those numbers are accurate. And I think most americans would agree. Like if you look at where Prices were in twenty twenty and the inflation rights that have been reported since twenty twenty, and you add those up, where were at Price rise is much higher. Most people feel like their shelter costs, their food costs, their transportation costs have gone anywhere from thirty to forty percent.

Certainly there is a feeling which is subjective sentiment, but I mean, a major allegation like their misreporting, the data needs to be backed by something .

yeah I think when you look at the Price of groceries, when you look at the Price of rent, when you look at the Price of fuel and then you're looking at what the CPI comes back at, IT does not feel a line.

IT doesn't feel. But what do you have to back that?

sure. I don't have the numbers to back that for you right now.

Yeah, unless there's some type of evidence, there is no evidence to back that the inflation rate is different than what has been reported.

Um I would gander to think that over the next couple of years, as we start cleaning house in a lot of ways with this new administration and clearing up a lot of the bureaucracy and auditing a lot of the work that's been done over the last four years, we're going going to see different .

reports for different things if evidence comes up. I'm happy to look at IT, but there is none as of right now that i'm aware of. But go on, you are talking about bricks trying to create a new fiar currency, a new payment real system that would be some alternative to using the U. S. Dollars as a global standard.

Yes, the likelihood of them is showing and his currency that's actually be sustainable and do well as .

slim ton on exactly. yeah.

So I don't think that's the thread. I think the thread is then figuring out how to trade completely outside of the western hemisphere because obviously, we benefit from that business as well.

And so is africa then accelerating its adoption of crypt c currency? Is the objective to get away from the U. S. dollar? Or is that a side effect?

The objective is to get out of the U. S. Dollar and also just out of the influence of amErica as the leading superpower.

And I think amErica sort of walked into that one, right, with the sanctions against russia. And then russia turned to china. And now trump also, he wants to tighten trade with china and bring a lot of that the manufacturing home. And you know, as you sure, there's economic reason for that. But I think the more we do these things, the more IT becomes clear to the other side that they need to be more self reliant and create their own alliances, which is what they're trying to do.

Do you think that the U. S. Dollar will continue to be the world's reserve currency?

I think I will continue to be the worlds superior currency. It'll be the best out of the choices that we have for the variable future reserve currency. I don't know.

I think if bitcoin delivers in the way that we expect you to deliver, if IT starts being and asset held in global treasurer, if we do put IT into the us. Reserves, if other countries start to adopt, then I foresee a future in the next tent to twenty years, bitcoin could be the worlds with our currency. And by the way, it's really hard to sit here and say, I hope this happens and I hope this doesn't happen because as someone living in the U. S, I want us to have the dollar is there is a currency because that gives us so many benefits globally, so many economic benefits. But it's difficult to continue to imagine for that to be the case down the road.

Many people were scared off of crypto currency with the collapse of F, T X. There are sort of three parts to that saga. So there was the collapse of F, T.

X. Prior to that, there was three arrows capital. And prior to that there was, remind me the luna, luna. Yeah, can you explain what happened like that three party?

Yes, the luna was one of these innovative networks that was created. And luna created an algorithmic stable coin. Most stable coins, like I talk about, U, C, C.

And U, D, T, are backed one to one by the dollar. There is another sort of sex of these stable coins there meant to act like the dollar, but they're not actually backed by the dollar. They usually backed by a basket of things could be the dollar, bitcoin if few other currencies.

And then there's a rebalancing algorithm that happens to kind of prop them up. One end of that happening is someone took a really, really big short on luna two tokens. There was the actual luna stable coin, and then there was luna.

The government is token, and the two of them had to stay in perfect baLance. And so someone took a really, really big short on the government's token and then collapse IT. And basically the stable going got out of work, and then the stable coin collapsed, and they were trying to back IT up as quickly as they could.

But basically, the thing didn't survive. And so the algorithm got battles tested and IT failed. Why this was particularly significant was because of how much capital was locked up. I think between the two coins is over thirty billion dollars locked up.

And there was a bit of a domino of fact, if you staked their um U S T, which was their stable coin, you could earn a very high yield to like twenty six percent on their platform on anchor. And so a lot of funds put money into this protocol to earn that yield for their investors. And then some of these funds want to step further, and they would actually borrow money from places like geri.

Geri earned, got caught up in this. So germany, I earn would promise, say, and eight percent yell to their investors. They would take the money that people put in, and they would wanted to genesis, and genesis would give them a spread on that.

And then genesis would turn around and give that money to three hours capital. And then through his capital, would put IT into anchor and aren't twenty six percent. So everyone got paid a nice little spread on billions of dollars until the thing underneath that became worth sera.

And so one by one, these company started to collapse. F tx. Also had a large holding of luna and these related assets.

And so F T X also had a hole, all of a son that they didn't expect to have. But F T X actually had a lot of other problems. So, and actually seem back.

My friend D I known a little bit personally, and not to excuse anything that he did, but I think he got an incredibly raw deal, and he's on appeal now and hopefully we'll give him a more reasonable sentence because I don't think that he deserves to be in prison for life for what he don't. Basically, what happened with f tia's was they had a, had fun in A B, C. Phone called aleema.

And alee do was investing in all kinds of things. And then they said, okay, I well, we're trading a bunch of money in aleema. All of these exchanges aren't that great. Why do we just build our own? Because we're so good at what we do.

And so they created this, like pet project, which wasn't supposed to be a big thing, was supposed to be a pet project for them to trade their own capital, called F T X. And then F T X of being the best exchange we as traitors, have ever seen. I run a hetch one, and we trade twenty four seven.

That was the best exchange, a crypto exchange we have ever seen or really any kind of exchange. IT was, I was an incredible exchange, and I was an incredibly profitable business. And so he set up a new company for aft ax. Then when people started putting money on aft eggs and trading on in or just using IT as kind of a digital bank, and a lot of cases, they just assumed that I was perfectly safe because of how well IT was backed by celebrities and politicians.

Sam IT, a really great job at donating money all the right places and paying for the right endorsements and then in the back you know um call IT I don't know youthful is management you know there's a debate as to how malicious all of this actually was. He basically took the money out of F, T, X, and gave IT to alumna to make investments, which is fraught, right? That is blinking fraud.

So he took money out of one piles, put IT in another, didn't report IT properly, didn't disclose the to investors. Then he took that money, and he invested in a bunch of companies. But here's where IT gets really interesting.

He invested that money really, really well. So in the bankrupt proceeding, you know, now we are like two years after the fact of this collapse and now the bankrupt k proceeding is nearly complete. Everyone's getting paid back what they put in.

So they're making everyone whole, at least in dollar terms, maybe not a big order terms, but at least in dollar terms, everyone's gone to get their money back. And so now we have this kid who's in prison for life for this mistake that he made, that was essentially a victim of a crime where a lot of people are getting their money back. So hopefully now that he goes on a peal, he'll be able to get a different type of sentencing. That's all a bit more fair to this crime.

I've heard people argue though that given that they're not being a made hole in bitcoin in terms had that money remained bitcoin at the time in which they invested IT, they would have made significant gains in these interm years. And so they've missed out on those gains.

It's a fair argument, however, and most times and banker supercedes dings, people don't get paid a hundred cents of the dollar even in dollar terms. So I think that this is an incredible outcome for investors. And I will say that those investors that really, really wanted to get out a year ago before the big coin run had OPPO to so, so you could have soldier claim and as much as seventy five cents on the dollar during those times and reinvested IT back. So there were opportunities for people who first saw this run and wanted to take a advances of IT to not miss on all .

of IT for the average person who is thinking about putting a portion of their portfolio and decypher to currency. But they're scared off by the F, T, X. collapse. And they scared off by what we know is a recent history of major fraud in the space. How can the average ordinary investor develop that confidence?

I think in base is an amazing company. They're very well regulated, very well protected by arching is done an incredible job leading that chip. People have been hacked because they're not careful with their passwords.

So I will say that is a caution. If someone calls you and says, oh, we're from twenty days, we just sent you a verification code. Can you tell us what IT is? They're probably trying to hack.

You don't respond to that phone call. Generally, coin base itself has not been hacked. Coin basis also devolved provider for a lot of the etf that we have in the space. So they are considered red to be a good new fortress for wall street and a black rock. So I think if you want to keep your bitcoin on coin base, provided you set up your security in your double and your authentication on IT correctly, you should be OK. You also have the alternative of just buying a bit quiet, yes, in your brought the ray or something like that. If you want to play coins and you really want to go and do the whole me coin thing and the all coin thing, you can do some of IT on coin base or you can do IT on some of these decentralized wallets like the one by coin base or a mena mask or there's a few other providers phantom for salona. There's a whole slow of them, depending on the .

ecosystem you want to. Speaking of which, what is a coin?

A coin is a small cap coin that doesn't have any inherent value. A concept that i'm really fascinated about this cycle is nyalong m. And I think IT has to do a lot with this inflation conversation that you and I just had that we are at a small disagreement over.

But I think a lot of people feel like they're really, really struggling. And so five hundred box to them in the savings account does nothing. Even if they invest IT, IT does nothing. But if the gambling IT and the gambling at, well, I could change their life, five hundred box can be the start of something really, really beautiful, especially in the point space. And it's no different than how people used to go to the casino back in the the day or bet on a race tracks or all that kind of stuff.

So because it's becoming inherently so much more difficult to save and to invest the traditional way, people have turned to gambling and the gambling on coins, the hot coins this cycle are meme coins. The idea here is that you create some sort of A, A brand, you know. So dose, for example, is one of the most famous me coins.

The brand is a shiba o and then there's the derived of that which shibo, which was created by on top of syria. We invested recently in a coin in our very, very professional hatch d. We invested in a sonoma mem coin called department of government efficiency, which boomed as seen as trump on the election and the announcement that elan was going to run this new efficiency coalition to over.

So it's just a way for you to get behind brands that you like. But in that sense, it's no different than saying, okay, i'm going to go buy a supreme t shirt for five hundred box over what it's worth because I like the brand. So it's kind of like that you get behind a Brown and then the Price of IT goes up and then people sell IT when they feel like they want to sell IT. Not going to be serious.

No, yeah, it's the fun gambling. The way is gambling yeah yeah and I think .

that's important to say like this is not meant to be serious. You're not supposed to use real life changing money on this. You're not supposed to like gamble your college find or your retirement on IT.

This is just a fun thing. So take them count that you would take to casino and have fun with that. And if you win, congratulations.

yeah. So mean, coins and coins are sort of the fun vegas casino gambling side of IT. But for ordinary investors who are looking for practical investing advice, what would you say? So I think.

number one, make sure you have exposure to the big one assa class. Whether IT be going in cold storage on coin base or through an T F, there's alternatives that you can also invest through, like microstrip gy, although it's much more volatile. So I would expect maybe three x volatility on microstrip gy than I would on regular big coin.

TRicky that in mind when you're investing, but you must have some exposure as your retirement as your long term savings account. And there's ways to automate this where you can. Send five hundred dollars a month from your bank account automatically to coin base on a lot of these platforms. And then I would set aside a small mana capital and come and play in the alternative asset space and see which, like there's a lot of innovation that's taking place from to centralize infrastructure and finance to A I, and it's all happening in this new financial sphere. And so there's a lot of a lot of incredible upside, both if you're playing these assets in the traditional space and in the decentralize space.

Exel lent, well, thank you. Where can people find you? I D like to know more about you and your work.

sure. So my twitter and instagram is at tota cofton. I also have a weekly newsletter called myth of money, and that's on my website, myth of money to com.

You can subscribe there. And it's a subject that comes out every sunday. And I give you quick. Mark could recap in some investing tips.

great. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Tatiana. We covered a lot of ground today from big picture developments like bitcoin etf and l salors.

Experience with cypher to currency, to more practical considerations about how regular investors might approach this space. One thing that absolutely fascinates me are totally on his insights about how different regions are approaching crypto currency. We talked about dubai ya's emergence as a crypto hub.

We talked about africa's potential as the next frontier for adoption. We talked about how various developing economies are using crypto o to reduce their dependence on the U. S dollar SHE and I are both in absolute agreement that the bricks countries are not going to be able to develop across payment system. SHE and I both agree that the probability of that actually happening is very, very, very slim.

And now the latest news as of yesterday is the president, like trump, s threatened to impose one hundred percent turfs on the bricks countries if they continue their attempts to develop this alternative cross payment rail system, which I think even further reduces the likelihood that that the bricks will be successful in doing so, or will even want to continue doing so. So it's an enormously fascinating space. I really appreciate artisan's Frankness and distinguishing between serious investments versus the meme coins, which he describes as essentially gambling money.

And IT was also really interesting to get an insider's perspective on the F, T, X. Collapse, which I think helps give that saga more context. And although we did disagree about inflation data, I think that that exchange highlighted something important, which is the gap between economic data and lived experience.

That gap is something that we need to discuss openly while also maintaining our commitment to evidence based analysis and first principles thinking. I loved this discussion. I hope you got a lot out of IT.

Please find me an instagram. Send me A D. M.

Let me know what you thought, or leave a comment under any of my recent instated sts. I'm there. APP all pant P A U L A P A N T.

You can also find audio, a on instagram or linked in or x. And her book is the myth of money. The links are in the show notes. Thank you so much for tuning in. My name is polite at this is the afford anything podcast, and i'll meet you in the next episode.