Bruce Springsteen Takes on Donald Trump — and Trump Takes on Taylor Swift, Bruce, and Beyoncé
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Brian Hyatt. This is Rolling Stone Music Now. Now it's going to air another episode this week, but events intruded. Those events began at a Bruce Springsteen and the East Street Band concert in Manchester, England, where Bruce began a frontal verbal assault against President Donald Trump.

And then Donald Trump, because, you know, apparently he has nothing better to do, nothing going on in the world, decided to shoot back on Truth Social. And before he shot back at Bruce, he took a shot in the same day at Taylor Swift. He said that Taylor Swift is no longer hot since he said that he hated her. I'm sure the lack of...

cultural energy focused on Taylor Swift right now has nothing to do with the fact that she just ended the biggest tour of all time and has been deliberately out of the public eye. I'm sure it's because of something that Donald Trump says. But begun this pop culture war has, and I thought that I'd have Andy Green here to try to break this all down. This was a very clear statement that Bruce made and wanted to make big. Welcome to the Land of Hope and Dreams tour.

The mighty E Street Band is here tonight to call upon the righteous power of art, of music, of rock and roll in dangerous times. In my home, the America I love.

The America I've written about, that has been a beacon of hope and liberty for 250 years, is currently in the hands of a corrupt, incompetent, and treasonous administration.

Tonight, we ask all who believe in democracy and the best of our American experience to rise with us, raise your voices against authoritarianism, and let freedom ring. Trump returns to it on May 19th.

As our brilliant colleagues in the politics department at Rolling Stone pointed out, this was how he prepared for a very important phone call with Vladimir Putin about the war in Ukraine. When he was supposed to be prepping for that, he writes a screed about the biggest music stars in the world at 1.34 a.m. the night before the phone call. It's amazing. All caps. How much did Kamala Harris pay Bruce Springsteen for his poor performance during her campaign for president?

Why did he accept that money if he is such a fan of hers? Isn't that a major and illegal campaign contribution? What about Beyonce? And how much went to Oprah and Bono? Now, caps are gone. I am going to call for a major investigation into this matter. Candidates aren't allowed to pay for all caps endorsements, which is what Kamala did under the guise of paying for entertainment. In addition, this was a very expensive and desperate effort

Four exclamation points.

Let's just start with Bono for a second. Bono played no role in the election whatsoever. Beyonce and Bruce did appear at rallies for Harris. But Bono? Where in God's name is Bono's name coming from here? So just to get our facts straight here, there are records of payments from the Harris campaign to production companies associated with Oprah Winfrey, with Bruce Springsteen, with Beyonce.

for services during the campaign, but those payments were for production costs. Oprah made it clear that she didn't take a personal fee. Beyonce's publicist told PolitiFact that the claim that Harris paid for the endorsement was beyond ridiculous. Beyonce's mom said Beyonce did not receive a penny for speaking at Kamala Harris's rally in Houston. In fact, she paid for her own flights for her and her team.

And the really important fact is that FEC rules actually mandate that campaigns pay, quote, fair market value for the cost of holding events. The irony is that I guess if they didn't pay the cost, that would be considered an undisclosed misconduct.

campaign contribution from the artist. So Trump basically has it backwards. Production insecurity and whatnot. It's not like she's profiting off of this in any way. Yeah, I would imagine security alone is quite expensive. I'm sure that, you know, also they're not going to... They know...

That these payments are public. And Bruce didn't pocket a dime either. It's ludicrous to say they were paid for their endorsements. They did it for the money. These are hugely expensive events to stage, from insurance to security to everything else. And again, just being as completely fact-based as I can, people have said that the Harris campaign overpaid for the Oprah Winfrey event.

But that wasn't paying Winfrey herself for an endorsement. That was just wasting money on an overly ambitious production, which is kind of the campaign's problem. There's nothing illegal. It's arguably just dumb if they spent too much to make a very fancy production. And again, if they wanted to be dumb with that...

President Trump should probably be glad they did that because they were arguably wasting money that they could have spent on ads in swing states. If they want to be idiots, that's their problem. And Oprah wasn't pocketing money either. It was an expensive event to put on. And to say it's illegal to bring in famous people to appear at rallies. So when Kid Rock is at his rally, then that's a crime too. So what's he talking about? Right. Hulk Hogan, various... Or Scott Baio or something. Yeah.

There's a bunch of interesting things here. This is hardly an original observation, but Trump is a creature of pop culture and television and show business. That is a huge part of why he is president. He has a phenomenal understanding of this stuff. I was just talking about how in the debate where Biden hidden and berged and blew himself up, Trump's understanding of how to handle that

You have to say it was extraordinary. He has an incredible showbiz instinct. He saw that he was melting down, and all of a sudden, all of his attack dog stuff went away, and he let him blow up. He pulled back. He's the world's most effective bully in the history of bullying. He saw his enemy was collapsing. He stood back, and with one death blow, he just said,

I don't know what Biden just said. I don't think he knows what he just said. Bullying, yes, but also an exquisite understanding of TV and how things go. For sure. His whole presidency has been a reality show. At the debates in 2016 against all his opponents, he alpha-mailed up and knocked them all out. It was like a wrestling match. He saw Biden's state and just pulled back. It was brilliant.

That kind of stuff. He's a genius and so therefore it really hits him where it hurts when Very famous people famous beloved people Attack him it really bothers tells a man if any K Lister like John Voight or Stacey Dash or Scott Bale praises him they go the White House They speak at the RNC. He loves it. He lives for John Voight's praise. He wants any famous person's praise and

No one's more upset about the Kanye stuff than him because it was a big star praising him. And now he's too much of a blatant Nazi to allow into the White House. Yeah, it was a tough thing. It's hard to go too Nazi for Trump, but Kanye pulled it off.

He really did. And so he doesn't have Kanye anymore. And does he know that Beyonce, Taylor Swift, and Bruce Springsteen are among the most universally beloved celebrities in the world? Of course he does. And he wants total victory, total domination.

And he also wants a world where people are too scared. And I think this is a point we should get into. He wants a world where people are too scared to speak up against him. Yeah, that his followers, if he declares somebody a enemy...

Their lives become a living hell. Mitt Romney has security for his whole family. He wants people to hold back on their critiques out of fear of him. It's just complete domination. There's also been this notion on the right for a long time that Taylor was paid to support Biden. She dated Travis because they had a contract from the DNC. There's this ludicrous notion in MAGA world that these people are secretly being paid.

So, I think it's important to point out that there is an atmosphere of fear in America right now, and one that he's very effectively created. He's gotten a lot of universities to kiss the ring. He's gotten law firms to kiss the ring. Yeah. And members of Congress, if they could vote anonymously for stuff, it would all be very different. They're all petrified to go against him because they see what happens. He supports their primary opponent. They become Eric Cantor.

So he rules by fear in a very effective way. And 60 Minutes appears to be bowing him. Paramount and CBS. The Washington Post. You can go down the line. He has strong-armed all these people. He has had everybody cowering in fear. It's how he wins.

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You know, I think Taylor Swift and Beyonce deserve a lot of credit for stepping up during the campaign. Bruce has been...

A rare voice, though, to step up now. Celebrities have been fairly quiet. I think part of it is just knowing that the resistance stuff the first time didn't really do as much as it should have. And it maybe felt a little futile. Yeah, I think big chunks of the left across the board were just knocked on their ass by the election of 24. Watching how complete his victory was. Watching almost every county in America vote.

where he increased his vote share. There's this feeling of everything we did to stop him, it all backfired. It's just all of it. And then again, we've talked about this before, but a lot of young artists are caught up in this thing where it's

It's more cool to still, even now, it's more cool to criticize Democrats than it is to criticize Trump. It's not necessarily cool, even now, to be like a 22-year-old indie artist and say anything about Donald Trump, because what you're really supposed to be focused on with social pressure is to be like, you know, the fucking Democrats, they're nearly as bad as Trump. And that's supposed to be kind of the focus, just on a social level. It's on both sides that who does MAGA World hate the most?

it's Liz Cheney and people like her. Both sides are obsessed with heretics on their own side. But I think Bruce obviously made a conscious decision based on his own outrage and his own patriotism that he was someone who

who, and I'm not going to put words in his mouth, but if he can't speak up, someone who is incredibly rich, incredibly famous, has layers of protection all around him, just as a very protected and privileged individual, as he'd be the first to say, if he's afraid to speak up, then why would anyone do it? And I think he made the choice.

to use his platform and speak up. Yeah, it was a very brave thing, and he has the ability to do it, but Trump wants most other people to be too afraid of the cost of doing it. That's what he wants.

That's why he attacks people that do it on such a big level, because he knows that people with less power will shut up. I mean, Bruce kind of telegraphed that something was changing because he renamed this tour. Yeah, he started a tour back in 2023. It was the Letter to You tour. It was during the Biden years. He did it for two straight years.

And then a few weeks before this last leg started, they announced it is now the land of Hope and Dreams Tour. They were telegraphing this is a change. This will be a different sort of show. He had been hinting at that in some interviews.

Then he walks on stage and before he sings a single song, the first thing he does is just deliver the speech. And it was just, he just ripped Trump to shreds. Which he's done before a lot, but never quite this emphatically. He called him treasonous. And they posted a pro-shot video on his YouTube channel like a few hours later.

And they really pushed it out to the press. This was a deliberate statement. He wanted this to go far and wide. I'm not sure he thought it would cause this reaction. Yeah, so it's the Land of Hope and Dreams tour. And he also changed the set list as well. It's not just speeches that he's giving. The...

show now begins with the song Land of Hope and Dreams, which is of course a song he introduced in 1999 and then re-recorded for the Wrecking Ball album and is very much about American ideals. He'd need her to land her

As he said during the show, it's, "...the America I've sung to you about is real." And I really love that. It carries on a theme that he's talked and sung about repeatedly, which is that he once said, "...the America you carry in your hearts is waiting."

And so it's this idea that there is this better America that exists, even if it just exists in the spirits of some, it still is real. It's a different kind of patriotism. It's a patriotism to what America could be and should be. Yeah, it's a very clear and distinct point that America is only as good as its current leadership or its current government. It's this thing you always hear, America is an idea. Yeah.

It's not like in the Obama years, we were great, and suddenly the day Trump is sworn in, "Thou are bad." It's about the people. He made that very clear, but he also couldn't hold back his feelings about the current president and the path that we're taking.

It changed around the entire show, that for two years he toured a show where the theme was about loss and grief and death and moving on in the face of death and finding purpose in the aftermath of losing those close to you and aging. And that's all gone. Yes. No more moving on after death. We're good with that. We've moved on from moving on after death. And then to keep going through. So then song two is Death to My Hometown, which is very much about, you know,

economic havoc wreaked by careless, greedy leaders. And then he stuck in a song he had not played at all live, Rainmaker. Rainmaker says white's black and black's white.

Says night's day

That's an interesting one because it was written and initially recorded in 2003 and it was one of his many George W. Bush inspired songs. Yes, but it really fits for right now. It's about a demagogue false promises It's about when you're desperate to believe in something that you will you'll believe in the rainmaker that gay guy can come and will create rain, but it's all a lie and

And he's saying that Trump supporters have been duped by a rainmaker. It's very clear. MARK BLYTH: In the dead zone, the president in the dead zone has a past literally as a rainmaker. It's an archetypal con, then. MARK BLYTH: Yeah, it's the ultimate con. There's always people back in the day, obviously, now that are experiencing droughts, are desperate for rain. Guy comes in. You pay me money. I'll make it rain. And it will eventually rain. And then they take credit.

Okay, has Bruce read the Dead Zone? What do you think?

I'm not sure he's a Stephen King guy. He has had lunch with Stephen King. Really? Yes, Stephen King's told this story. And I've spent a lot of time with Stephen King. He talked about seeing Bruce in Lewiston, Maine in 76 or 77 and it changed his life. Definitely Stephen King is a bigger Bruce fan than vice versa. That is definitely true. I have no doubt about that. Also, this went past a lot of people, but he changed the lyrics to Rainmaker. The original final verse goes, because they don't care or understand what it really takes for the sky to open up the land.

He changed it to, because they don't care or understand how easy it is to let freedom slip through your hands. So I asked Bruce, Letter to You came out in the final months of the Trump administration. I asked him if he ever thought about making the angry anti-Trump album, because he wrote so much about George W. Bush. And he said that would be the most boring album in the world. But he said that Rainmaker was sort of the one that stood in for the album I didn't make. I think one of the things about this song is it shows...

Profound empathy for the victims of the comment, you know Yeah I think that's an important thing to never lose sight of that It's very easy to despise Trump, but Trump voters have been duped They've been taken in by a rainmaker a lot of them some of them in parts of the country that been hollowed out by globalization have seen factories close and

have seen so many problems that they're desperate to believe in in a Rainmaker and it's important to not be angry at them but to understand where they're coming from and then he also added back an acoustic version of the song House of a Thousand Guitars which has another little nod to Trump friendly little nod the criminal clown is stolen he steals what he

That's pretty blatant. Pretty blatant. Pretty clear what that one was about. And then for the set closer, yeah, he brought back Chimes of Freedom. It's a Bob Dylan song. Obviously, his cover is really a cover of the Byrds version. And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

And he hadn't played it since Reagan was enough as a 1988. He put out live version on a EP. They made a big deal out of it. Then he totally dropped it until a few days ago.

I do like the guy in the crowd. That would have been me. I heard a guy in the crowd on opening night loudly singing along with every word just to prove that he was completely ready for this. Even though he hadn't played it in 37 years, he was ready for it. And me too. I would have been ready for it. Yes, I'm psyched. And all these people are in Manchester are like, definitely, Bruce, we will not vote for Trump. Yeah, it's a weird thing that he's doing this in Europe. He's toured so much in the past two years. He sells a lot more tickets in Europe. It's a weird thing. He's a bigger draw in Europe than in the States. This is his third straight summer there.

Yeah, I think what the missing context for, and even Trump in his initial reaction, made that point, this Dixie Chicks-esque point that, oh, he shouldn't be doing this on foreign soil. But what's missing is that it just happened to be, Bruce has been off tour for quite some time. The tour is picking up overseas and it isn't scheduled right now to come back to the States. It's his first E Street Band tour of...

That Trump hears. He has never been on the road with the E Street Band while Trump is president besides Australia and a few days of 2017. He was on Broadway or it was COVID. So, you know, that's just the timing of it.

Okay, so here is what Donald Trump posted on May 16th at 10:07 a.m. I won't do my impression cuz I'm not very good at it. "I see that highly overrated Bruce Springsteen, highly overrated capitalized, goes to a foreign country capitalized to speak badly about the President of the United States. Never liked him? Never liked his music or his capitalized radical left politics. And importantly, he's not a talented guy.

M-capital, just a pushy, obnoxious, all caps, jerk, who fervently supported, caps, crooked Joe Biden, a mentally incompetent, all caps, fool, and our, all caps, worst ever president, who came close to destroying our country. He's now forgotten what he's talking about. He's talking about something else. If I wasn't elected, it would have been gone by now. Sleepy Joe didn't have a clue as to what he was doing. Now he's back. Now you remember he's talking about Springsteen. But Springsteen is, for

for some reason in quotes dumb as a rock and couldn't see what was going on or could he parentheses which is even worse exclamation point question mark i'm not making any of this up this is all true this dried out quote prune close quotes of a rocker parentheses his skin is all atrophied ought to keep his mouth shut all caps until he gets back into the country that's just quote standard fare

in this part, then we'll see how it all goes for him. Now, of course he went on to threaten further, but that is, when he says, "Then we'll see how it all goes for him," he is threatening a United States citizen for their free speech. There's no other way to interpret that. It's a very clear threat. I'm sure if he could deport him that he would, but he's a US citizen, that's not an option. To talk about his skin, what's funny is they're roughly the same age.

If you put them side by side and ask anybody- You're more offended by the insult than the unconstitutional threat. He just always gets so petty. What's so ludicrous is Trump craves praise from rich and powerful famous people. He lives for it. If tomorrow Springsteen came on stage and was like, "You know what? I've given it thought. I think Trump is a great president. He's done amazing things for this country. I'm proud of him. I'm sorry, President Trump. You are amazing. You are Abraham Lincoln times 10."

be called to the White House and be given the Medal of Freedom and Trump would talk about how talented he is. Yes, absolutely. When Bruce then continued on to his next show and said pretty much all the same stuff, played the same songs, people were like, Springsteen doesn't back down after being called a prune. It's a very funny setup because the idea would be that he'd be so cowed

by these personal insults that he would just be like, I'm sorry, Mr. Trump. Yeah, it's ridiculous. And this stuff is not impromptu things he's saying. He writes these out ahead of time very carefully and he reads them every night off a teleprompter. So both speeches at both shows at various points at night, they were verbatim.

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I think we should address something that someone wrote and I don't mean this as a personal attack on the writer but this music writer wrote a piece suggesting that

Bruce's comments about Trump were a clever ploy to promote his upcoming box set of unreleased albums Which is how do I say this politely? I was more offended by that then it's so preposterously stupid the notion that a Consumer would be like, you know what? I wasn't sure I cared about Springsteen's lost 90s records that drum loop record the Western Swing record I didn't really care

But he called the president treasonous, so now I'm all in. Right, exactly. It seems actually, business-wise in America, it's not necessarily a good move. No, I mean, Steve Van Zandt has said that it's really hurt them in terms of ticket sales. He thinks that their audience was cut in half by it. I think that's saying a lot. Yeah, I don't believe that. That's a huge overstatement.

But I will say that certain parts of the country, Springsteen does not really sell a ton of tickets. And a lot of it is in red America. But that's kind of always been the case.

But if you look at where he tours, where he sells, it's what fans call the Bruce Belt, is where he sells the most. If you put him in Texas or a lot of parts of the South, those arenas have a lot of empty seats. Even New Jersey is kind of trending purple. As a New Jersey native, there's definitely people there who are super mad at him. There's Trump signs in Monmouth County, his native county. So it's not like this is not a slam dunk for him commercially. But also, this box set is crazy.

great, but it's for fans. It's really for hardcore fans. It's not a mass market product. He has plenty of money. He doesn't make every decision in terms of broadening his audience. If he did, he'd have done things so differently in the past 30, 40, 50 years. Right. I mean, I would point out that just to knock this into the ground forever, if...

I mean, it's just so ludicrous. But if Bruce Springsteen was primarily concerned with, quote unquote, getting more attention at this point in his career, he just had the 40th anniversary for his most famous album last year, Born USA. He could have done a huge, if all he cared about was that, he could have done a huge Born USA box set documentary, done a Born USA tour, put the bandana back on. Yeah. He could have done the whole deal, and he would have just swam in an ocean of money.

He didn't do that. They barely recognized that anniversary. There was like a vinyl reissue or something and that was it.

So it's laughable and I cannot believe someone would again I found that more offensive than Trump's ridiculous. I presume everybody is a cynical and greedy as they are you know Bruce is motivated by Genuine patriotism and genuine anger and for people to say it's unpatriotic is such a confused idea Oh, yeah, and was when when Biden was president they were so upset when the president was criticized right? It's a bullshit. I

I think it's a kind of patriotism that maybe requires just a touch more imagination to understand. But it's also, by the way, and I've spent a lot of time, as have you, as has Stephen Hyden, who wrote a great book about Borneo Say and many other people, but thinking about what Borneo Say really means, this song. And Borneo Say, it's actually oversimplified when people say, well, no, it's

Because it's obviously not a USA, USA, gung-ho patriotic song. But when people say it's not a patriotic song at all, I don't think that's ultimately true either. I think the character is still proud of where he's from, despite everything he's gone through.

At the end of the day, the one thing he can't deny, that can't be denied about him, is the one thing he still takes some pride in. He was born in the USA. I think it's an angry, disappointed brand of patriotism where he's saying, this is supposed to mean something. I want it to mean what it's supposed to be. It hasn't meant, in my life, it hasn't meant what it's supposed to be, which is the experience of many people in this country. But I think the most...

constructive way of looking at it is trying to hold on to an ideal to that, you know, America we carry in our hearts. That's what it is, you know. And there's a super weird thing Bruce has done in the past 10 years or so where he only plays the song in Europe. Right. It's at every European concert and literally no American concerts.

Right. The one tour where he played it super regularly in the U.S. was on the Vote for Change tour because that was, sorry, I'm jumping back further in the past, but that was the time when it could not be misconstrued. No, yeah. And he'd hammer it home. And then when he changes it at the very end to 50 years burning down the road, it really just gives you chills to think of how long it's been. And then Trump, as is his want, took it further.

Further, just to ensure that he angered everyone who might be in the Rolling Stone audience, he also decided to rope in Beyonce and Bono. I will say Trump does have a good sense of who the true music superstars are. He's like, and thank you, Chapel Roan, for your very angry and hesitant support of Kamala. They want me a few votes. I appreciate that. Yeah.

You're invited to the White House. Thank you. See, terrible, terrible trouble pressure. No, this was bad. So it began Friday with the Taylor Swift thing, then the Bruce thing. And, you know, a lot of musicians have been speaking up in favor of Bruce. Eddie Vedder. At the Pearl Jam concert a few nights ago, they played My City of Ruins by Springsteen. Awesome.

At the MJ Lenderman show, I'm thinking Philadelphia a couple of nights ago, he played Darkness on the Edge of Town. Yeah, there's been a lot of solidarity. The American Federation of Musicians, who it turns out Taylor Swift and Bruce Springsteen are both members, Taylor Swift and the Nashville contingent and Bruce Springsteen and the Asbury Park, said we will not remain silent as two of our members, Bruce Springsteen and Taylor Swift, are singled out and personally attacked by the president of the United States.

And as the AFM president, Tino Gagliardi, Bruce Springsteen and Taylor Swift are not just brilliant musicians, they're role models and inspirations to millions of people in the United States across the world. In the country world, you hear silence. That's because some of them are on the right and some of them are petrified of becoming the Dixie Chicks.

That's absolutely true. And well, I mean, but you know, listen, the majority, not all, but I would say it's fair to say that a majority of certainly of male country artists are lean right. Sure. But I think even the ones that don't are terrified to say anything. Yeah, I think that's right.

It's sort of interesting to compare and contrast to the W era where there was a lot of songs about it or Nixon. Yes. And one thing that is missing, the protest song tradition is kind of is weak. You know, there were some the only memorable anti-Trump song really was by YG and from 2016. And it was called Fuck Donald Trump. Yeah. Yeah.

Good for YG. He made the one. He made the one song, and that was in March of 2016. Which is before he was even elected. Before he was even elected. And when he was still seen as half a joke. It's a hard thing to sing about. You know, Donald Trump. In the late 60s and the early 70s, there was a war happening. There was a draft. There was an easy rallying point. One simple message, stop this war. And that was a big thing.

It's the same thing happened in 2003 for there was a lot less protest songs But it was still focused on the war and like what do you sing about Trump? It's really a tricky thing to do. I feel like Nixon is the most singable president name There's something about a Nixon's coming It just doesn't even Reagan didn't you know Reagan was good for like, you know, some hardcore punk song But in the Thatcher in the punk scene, there's a lot of stuff about her

Yeah. And the amazing Fred Armisen, Dave Grohl, Hardcore Punk Reunion. They sing about which Reagan official. It's very funny. You hear that, Alexander Haig? You're getting all that, Ed Meese? Yeah.

So great. So, you know, angry rock songs aren't at the core of the culture. Or rock songs. Or rock songs, period. So it's just hard to... And if, you know, the people who are doing it, it's just hard to imagine Olivia Rodrigo being like calling out individual members of the Trump cabinet. Although...

You know what? I think Olivia Rodrigo does not get enough credit for being really politically active. She just spoke at Planned Parenthood. She stands with Taylor as someone who's just been really... She went to the White House. She's been great. She's been great. The abortion issue was an easy rallying cry for a lot of people. Just Trump in general, you have to call him a clown or the rainmaker or something. It's tough to write a bunch of songs about him.

Everyone else should look back and see if they had a good George W. Bush song that they didn't use. Just like Mike Bruce did and just kind of like stick it in. But I think that actually people aren't taking the threats seriously enough because, you know, the fact is, again, you know, he is...

calling for investigations into some of the most famous artists and on the planet as the power to do with this time the first administration he had people like William Barr who would say no to him and Now cash Patel on these maniacs are saying no to nothing So he could get the IRS to go audit Springsteen in the super hardcore way I mean he could do stuff that he couldn't do his first term. There are a few people who

who feel as secure uh and it doesn't mean he wasn't taking a risk i mean imagine if they hassle him and his crew at the border you know if i were a roadie on that crew i'd make sure i didn't have any weed in in my uh in my bags you know i mean it's it's kind of scary it's a genuine risk that's what neil young has been talking about as a dual citizen he's off to europe in a few weeks and he's he's afraid that they will find a means to not let him back in yeah daryl hannah

Said I honestly don't know how much you can credit it But she said that they've they've done everything possible to mess with his citizen status. I don't know Yeah, I thought that he was already a citizen. So yeah, I don't know Again, like, you know, I wouldn't swear her to court on that But you know He does seem possibly more vulnerable than Bruce to be mess with and he lives in Canada most the time and is a dual citizen Oh and we should mention that Neil posted a

As a Canadian-American dual citizen, I stand with the great majority, thanking you for speaking so eloquently and truthfully on behalf of the American people. We are with you, my old friend." Which is funny because they're not that close. Yeah. They've never been friends. They played together a bunch of times. They admire each other, but they're so different personality-wise that they're not friends.

Who is not different personality-wise from New York? Well, Bruce especially. Your great songs of America ring true as you sing them to Europe and the world. It is true. It's caused a little bit more speaking up. It contributed, I think, perhaps to an idea that people don't...

Don't have to be afraid of speaking up, even though possibly they do. But I think what's missing, if you look at the full content of what Bruce said, he actually was talking about Elon as well. In America, the richest men are taking satisfaction in abandoning the world's poorest children to sickness and death. He talked about Doge. People might have missed this, but he said, this is happening now in my country. They're taking sadistic pleasure in the pain they inflict on loyal American workers. And he's talking about

you know, specifically spoke up for federal workers, which is, you know, I certainly have not heard any other artist do that. No. He's taking a really strong stance, and this tour's going to go on for weeks and weeks, and I'm sure every single night he'll keep saying this. Now, the question is, when does this tour end, and how much of a chance does he have to add? Because it's not easy. You can't just add dates. No, he said very explicit ways that this is the end of the tour.

Okay, so that explains it even, I think, you know,

For anyone wondering not on a sort of oh, it's not patriotic to speak about it outside of the country But just on a practical level wouldn't it be better and more impactful to speak about this in America? The answer is simple. There are no more tour dates. The tour is fully booked. You can't just add stadium shows Therefore this is the tour. This is the tour He might be in Australia a year from now on a different tour, but that's even further away You know, the time is now the crisis is now this stuff's happening now. He happens to be in Europe and

So that's where he said it. It's also important to note that people like Bruce and Taylor Swift happen to be very good at political messaging. I loved what Taylor said to me. So Taylor said, we need to stop dissecting why someone's on our side or if they're on our side in the right way or if they phrased it correctly. You need to not have the right kind of Democrat and the wrong kind of Democrat. We need to be just like, you're a Democrat? Sick. Get in the car. We're going to the mall. Which is like...

Yes. Yes. That's the right message. Why can't politicians think this way? She was afraid before that. There's a scene in the documentary where her father is trying to convince her to not do it for her own safety, which is understandable. Yes. But Taylor's very good at messaging. Beyonce's very good at messaging. And Bruce, the way that what Bruce does that I think that Democrats should learn from is incredible.

encapsulating his criticism of this administration within patriotism. Yeah. And in terms of its impact on everyday people, on hardworking Americans. Yeah.

Absolutely. But also this idea that you can be a Democrat, you can oppose Donald Trump, and that that comes in the form of loving America. It's loving what America should be, and that there is this other America that exists out there. As I said, him saying that the America I've been singing to you about is real. So rather than just focusing on the

The other side says America right or wrong, and then allowing the perception that, however, our side is America is wrong, which is never, to be fair, that's never what Democrats have been saying. But they're not good at making that clear. They're not good at what Bruce is good at and saying like, no, we love America, but the America we love is a different America. It's a slightly complex idea that can be hard to convey.

Yeah, I mean, it shouldn't be because it's basically like America can and should be better. And there's this vision of America that we can work for, that we can work toward. And I think the problem is that Democrats can't then break into a song that then shows that America. Yeah, it just doesn't work. And they've had bad messengers who aren't really good at selling ideas recently. I think about another song, Long Walk Home, where he sings about the town.

But it's also like this image of it's a smaller image of an ideal world where You know, my father said some were lucky in this town. It's a beautiful place to be born It just wraps its arms around you nobody crowds you and nobody goes it alone and

Your flag flying over the courthouse means certain things are set in stone who we are what we'll do and what we won't of course He's been playing that as well. Yeah Do you know what member of the Senate in the past few years has praised that song and called out that line? I don't it's Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, you know as as our friend Stephen Hyden would say if any

If anything, that's what makes Bruce a more powerful messenger because he manages to convey these ideas that are so universal that even people on the other side see merit to it. And that's why when he says, no, these ideas are pointing in this direction, that's why it's powerful. I couldn't agree more. If you reach Rand Paul, then you got something. Doesn't Rand Paul like Rush, too?

Yes, because of the end ran We could be best friends we'd have a few disagreements Does he like Taylor or is he like kind of a rockist? I think he's a rock does he like Beyonce probably not yeah, okay So hang out with Rand and I'll get him into like broader kinds of music and then slowly it would convert him He's a man of some principle again. I think I

Fundamentally, one of the other reasons that artists aren't speaking out is there's nothing to really speak for right now. There isn't a clear leader of the Democratic Party. Yeah, it's a terrible time. There's no message on the left. There's no leader. There's just a party knocked to the floor with a game-ending uppercut. And so what do you do? We're recovering, and a lot of artists, they don't want to lose half of America by what they're saying. Right.

It's such a divisive time. You know, Bruce found a way to talk about federal workers, but that's a hard thing for musicians to stand on stage to talk about. And it's also like, frankly, it's just not that a lot of musicians aren't wonky enough to even get into the depths of that. They don't, it takes a little bit of explanation. It's not a simple thing like stop the war when it gets into like,

oh, they're gutting our federal government and therefore, you know, children are going to starve. And then also we're impairing our future because there's so much research being cut and we're going to ultimately lose to China. And Trump is so anti-war that he wants the war to end and Putin win just so it's over. It's this crazy thing. So, right. It's just...

It's a complex time. It's hard to talk about. There's still this fear of being a corny resistance person, even though the resistance has been in many ways proved right over and over again. And people who minimized the dangers have been proven wrong. It's still a tough thing for people. But again, it took someone who's 75 years old.

And was brave enough to stand on stage and also find a way to work it. You know, when your work is sturdy enough, you can imbue it with new meaning. And he has a catalog where you can take his existing songs and arrange it into a show that's a message this way. And not everyone has that. Yeah. And Bush was such a different kind of bad president. But yet the songs were general enough. They still work. And then...

to return to what we're saying at the beginning, I mean, the thing is it just shows that people were talking about a cultural victory and, you know, they own the podcast, the, not these kinds of podcasts, but like the Joe Rogan type podcasts and that it's a vibe shift and that, you know, MAGA is truly one on every front, but it's just a reminder that it really has an, that the core and, you know, even the success of movies like sinners shows that as well. It's just,

They can win the White House, but they have not really won the culture. MARK BLYTH: No. No. They've won some aspect of the man sphere. That's a small part.

Of the culture and the election was a very distinct circumstance what happened with Biden and the whole thing Yes, and you know Bruce wasn't like Biden was a hundred percent super strong and I wish he hadn't dropped out or anything like that He didn't even mention Kamala Harris. He was focused on here and now and I think that's also I think that Democrats can learn a lot about the way he's messaging. Yeah, I fully agree so

It continues on. Anyone else out there? I mean, Green Day is still talking. There is that weird gap. There isn't anyone young speaking out about this. The loudest voices are people who are eligible almost for Social Security. Well, there we go. It's still early. Believe it or not, it's only a few months into this presidency. The future remains, as always, unwritten. Andy Green, thank you for joining me as always. Of course. Thank you.

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