Pop Update! Gaga Triumphs, Selena Gets Raunchy, Chappell Goes Country and More
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I'm Brian Hyatt. This is Rolling Stone Music Now. Today I have with me our old friends, Bernie Spanos and Rob Sheffield. There's a lot of fun new pop to talk about and I thought we'd catch up.

So let's maybe start with the Selena Gomez, Benny Blanco collaborative album called I Said I Love You First. I really enjoyed this album. It's incredibly pleasant. It's not wildly original. Just love that Selena is so hyped up about Benny Blanco. And it's this guy, not Justin Bieber, that has inspired her most libidinous and sexual music. I just think it's very charming and funny.

Yeah, I think it's a great showcase for both of them. Obviously, Benny is so known for his work with a million different artists, a really big hit maker for many decades now. And I think to have him kind of like step into the spotlight a little bit in that way is pretty cool. A

A really fun sort of moment for Selena. Like it does feel like she is having a lot of fun on this album. Like obviously been a big fan of her music career for a long time, but I feel like it's like a really great sort of like mix of all the different things she's tried and tried out and done and experimented with on this album. And obviously with like the kind of sharp,

and writing of Benny kind of pushing that even further. I think it's interesting how many tracks sound like other artists and in a way that I really enjoyed. There's a lot of fun spot the influence on there. The second track, Younger and Hotter Than Me, particularly really sounds like Lana Del Rey to me a lot. Waited outside your apartment You used to come down for me I used to feel like an angel

That's quite a lot of the album, though. It's really like, I think it's, you know, I said I love you first to Lana. I think she's the romance being celebrated here. I love how this album, it has a really specific emotional task that it sets for itself and it accomplishes it. It does what it says on the tin, as the British are so fond of saying.

I like how this album has a really specific purpose and point. I like how it executes it. This is kind of what a concept album should be. You go into this album knowing what it's about, what the goals are, and those goals are all ticked off in an extremely agreeable and high-spirited way. It's definitely the most...

purely enjoyable pop album that Selena Gomez has made for someone whose music is so full of angst and neurosis for so much of her career, going back to her days with The Scene.

So for her to be in this album where nothing horrible is happening to her for the entire course of the album is such a revival, so to speak. Yeah. Listening to this album, I kept thinking of the great Vine. Remember Vines? They were so awesome. I love Vines. Anyway, you remember the Vine I'm talking about where Selena is on stage and there's a fan...

Holding a sign that says, marry Justin. And she goes into the crowd and like grabs the sign, takes it away and rips it to shreds on stage. Yeah.

That happy Vine memory came to mind a time or two while listening to this wonderful album. I just think it's great. I love how for Benny, who for the most part is someone who is known as a name in the credits rather than as a personality, it's kind of awesome to see him turn into the sitcom boyfriend that he has become so triumphantly in this Selena arc. Yeah, it's also been like a minute since we've had like a...

a pop couple album, you know, like the Jay-Z, Beyonce, everything is love type of album, just like a pop couple being like, and here's how much we love each other. Here's a bunch of songs about our relationship for you.

Yeah, it really fills the Nick Lachey, Jessica Simpson light that has been a gigantic housewives-shaped hole in our hearts for so many years. Yeah, it's a concept album about something that really everyone can relate to, which is a concept album about wanting to

bone Benny Blanco. It's important to choose universal themes for your concept album. Whether it's being deaf, dumb and blind and playing pinball, it's just things that everyone goes through. The funniest thing is listening without looking at the track listing. Blue is Flame, I was like, wow, this really sounds like Charlie XCX. Which, of course, that is the track that Charlie XCX guests on. My ears were really functioning on

I like the full on Selena dance banger. She doesn't do them that often. And when she does, she's really good at executing sort of like the like,

EDM voice, dance voice. So much of EDM vocals over the last decade are very much pulling from Selena and like her style of singing, whisper pop type of music that she's so associated with. How does it feel to be forgotten? Sounded a lot like Taylor to me, which isn't surprising, of course, given their longtime friendship. You walked a big ass grin, talking like a friend's on your way.

What a beautiful long-time friendship it is. One of the least tortured relationships in either one of them's life. Like, they're the constant in each other's lives. There's never any ups or downs or highs or lows. Yeah. Snuggling at award shows consistently through the decades. The Bridge of Sunset Boulevard. Who does that remind you of? I just want to touch and touch and try out this mountain busting.

I was trying to think who else would get quite that raunchy, and it was reminding me of something, and I couldn't think of it. Austin Powers? Maybe that's it. Yeah, it's like that kind of Benny Hill, Austin Powers style of, you know, grown woman. It's fun. It made me laugh out loud. And then Cowboy is the other kind of dirty one on the album. Put your hands on me. Right on, boy, run you out of time.

Yeah, I mean, like Rob said, like, it's rare to get like a Selena kind of just having fun moment. It's kind of nice. Like, it's like she's just like being like silly pop girl. And there is like that lack of like, I'm going through this like really traumatic thing, which is, you know, obviously been a big part of her life. She's had a lot of health issues, obviously, like a very publicized, you know, up and down relationship that and like very torturous breakup and like

There's a lot of album material from all of those things. And so it's kind of fun. She's just like, I'm just going to make a really horny, silly album with my fiance who happens to be, who happens to have like a million top 10 hits under his belt. And we will just, I'll just make this like silly pop girl album. And that's nice. Once you've slowed down. Remember that one? Yes. Yeah. I just want to feel your body right next to me. I'm on baby's love.

I love how this is like she's hearkening back to that, you know, teenage Selena that she was once upon a time and she sort of recaptured that spirit. You're totally right that it's just really fun hearing her just have fun for an entire album. And those like early songs were so...

I feel like they lacked a lot of personality would get out of her once we hit like revival, you know, like love you like a love song. And when you're ready, come to get it just felt so like, you know, I'm doing the motions of making a pop hit because like, this is what I'm supposed to do. And now it feels like, oh, like I'm having fun and I can like inject, you

you know, who I am as a person into these songs. And so it's like a nice like evolution, even from those, like the first era of like silly pop girl songs from Selena to this one, which feels like more weighted in who she actually is. She's truly mixed the metaphorical gin and juice. One of the things that one can look for in a Selena album is shots at Justin Bieber. Not to get too gossipy about it, but where do we see that here? Is how does it feel to be forgotten about him? Do we think? Your star.

That one feels Bieber-y to me. Yeah. Yeah. Certainly when she says you're so embarrassing. Yeah. And it is, you know, Justin not doing so well lately. Hopefully he's okay. But he did rather shockingly post this thing mocking her for being excited about her engagement ring. Yeah.

this week, which is like, yikes. I didn't see that. It compared women getting excited about their engagement rings to Gollum in Lord of the Rings, which apparently people took as reacting to certain Instagram posts on the Selena's Man. In which case, mission achieved, right? Yes. Well, honestly, look. She hurt his feelings, this album. I hate to interpret it this way, but one of the things I did see as her getting so raunchy was actually partly...

perhaps a bit of a fuck you to a certain ex. It's hard not to read a lot of the work as in that context. And I don't think it's even getting over reading or getting too gossipy to understand that this is a relationship that weighs heavy on both these people's minds and a little bit of a war that a musical war that goes on. I think often of my favorite Selena interview clip with her. And I think it was David Letterman and

It was soon after her and Justin broke up one of the times I think they seem she's pretty young in the videos I think it might have been like the first time they had broken up or something the first time and He was like he made a joke. He was like last time he Justin was here I made him cry and Selena said I did too

I do remember that. Classic, yes. So this is a real big I did too type of album, it seems. Yeah, totally. Totally. I said I hate you first.

we were all scarred by the Justin and Selena thing that took a toll on all of us, not just her. We're still reeling. Yes, I always remember the Comedy Central roast of Justin Bieber where Natasha Leggero said, all the boys in Hollywood like Selena had to date you, that poor girl. She is the unluckiest Selena in show business. Then there's a famous clip where Justin walks by Taylor and she makes that fizz. Oh, yeah.

So let's see, we want to talk Chapel Run for a bit? Yeah. That sounds great. Yeah. It's really interesting. When I talked to Dan Nigro a few months ago, he said he wasn't sure when the next album was going to come out, if she was going to make it for this year, but they're working on songs. And...

It appears that she's doing kind of a new strategy, which is she's not only dropping Lucy singles that may or may not be part of the next album, but she's also heavily promoting them.

She dropped The Giver after like this huge teaser campaign, a teaser campaign that some people would do for a whole album, you know, including billboards and everything, but she's doing it just for the single. And then she did this Call Her Daddy interview, a whole big interview just for the single with no album in sight. She did do that as an independent artist. It was kind of like what the couple years leading up to

the rise and fall of a Midwest princess came out was while she was independent, you know, she was still working towards an album, but you know, like obviously like pink pony club in California had come out in 2020. She released my kink is karma and 2022, you know, a lot of these songs were sort of, you know, obviously with a much lower budget. So the rollouts were not the same, like there were no billboards, but it was like,

she would do like a music video and kind of self-fund that and do like her own sort of like promotion cycle on TikTok. Like even when I talked to her for Casual, it was a year before she released the album and before she even had an album sort of actually made. And it was like she'd been doing TikToks for months at that point. So I'd been hearing previews of the song on TikTok for like two months before she released it, filmed a video and did that. So, you know, it's very much like a part of

she had to do before she had resources. And so it's very interesting to see her continue that because it was pretty effective with a lot of those songs. And also it's like very fun to kind of see her do it now with like a budget where she's working with the same people she did before her friend Misha, who is

is her creative director, is the person who did all the billboards and all the promotion and kind of planning for that. So it is very interesting to see like how she's like, okay, now I have not only major label money, but I have like the proof of concept that I can be successful and make a hit. So they're going to give me even more money and like do something like really crazy and fun. So it's cool to see how she's doing that. Cause yeah, when I spoke to her last summer, she even said she wasn't sure if

and she was going to do like a traditional album rollout and just kind of wanted to release songs that she felt comfortable.

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So there we go. So yeah, it is a strategy. I think going as far as to do big interviews to promote just the singles, I think it's super interesting. A kind of a bit of a way forward that other artists could emulate. I mean, I like The Giver. I loved it when it was on SNL.

At that point, I wasn't even sure if she was going to sort of even release it. I wasn't sure if it was just sort of-- because sometimes artists have just fun songs they do live, and it never really becomes a release. And maybe it just becomes a nugget that they bring out live. Because it is obviously a whole-- doing a Shania-style song, basically touting the advantages of being with a woman instead of a man as a woman is just a very clever idea in the first place.

I feel like as a single, I don't love it as much as her best stuff. For me, it's like one tier below because it's kind of like a one note idea. I get the idea. It's clever, but it doesn't have anything beyond that idea. And musically, I think it's a fine genre for her. I don't know if I love the genre for her as much as I love the straight ahead pop that she's known for. But I do think it's

It's cool to be going so far afield so early. By the way, it's early in one way, but it's not early in another, as your story makes clear, Brittany. She's been doing this for a long time. And I think some people think she's like 22. She's not. She's 27. She's been around a while. She's been doing stuff. But what do you two think?

I like it. It's a fun showcase of her flexibility as an artist in that way. And it was clear, again, when she was sort of describing the songs that they were working on, she had mentioned the country song and both her and Daniel were like, we're kind of experimenting with that and we're doing like a disco song and we're doing this. And like, it's clear that there's like a lot of

A lot of like playfulness, but also intention in each of the things that they're trying now, which is the same with, of course, Midwest Princess and all the singles on there and all the tracks on there. But it's nice to see her do that. And I think also, you know, it's very clear. She understands that so much of her power comes from her live performances. And this feels like a song that's going to be like,

so specific to her festival run coming up because she's doing so many festivals over the summer again and she's going to be doing that circuit obviously not as like excessively as last summer but people are looking forward to those things from her I think that's a big part of it is like it's meant to be this like big live fun song

But yeah, I think the Shania angle is great. And it's, I think people are kind of assuming because people always do is like, this is just what she's doing now. It's like very clearly, like she's just like doing a fun experiment because she's a drag performer first and foremost. And like, it's just like, this is a, she's doing country drag right now.

Good point. Rob, what do you think? Yeah, I love this song. Like most people, I heard it for the first time when she was doing it on Saturday Night Live when I was expecting her to do one of her hits instead. So it was really like bold and surprising move. It took a beat for it to sink in of like, oh, wow, no, she's doing something new instead of, you know, one of the millions of songs she could be doing at this moment. It was a real power move and a real wonderful comedy move. There's a real hee-haw energy to it.

Brittany, you said that she talked about this one. Does she have other country songs in the bag or is your sense more that this is a one-off? I think it's a one-off because when we talked about it last summer, it seemed like this song had already been pretty finished when we talked last summer, but obviously not. They weren't sure what the next single was going to be by that time because obviously SNL came a few months after the story came out, but last summer they were just starting to work on new stuff and starting to solidify some songs, but

They were just like, we have one country song that we're experimenting with. I want to see what Chapel Roan country song would sound like. They were doing a lot of, it seemed like a lot more of a rock direction. Live instrumentation was a big part of it because she was really into Joan Jett and Heart at that time. Those are the vocal kind of references that she was pulling from. So that's really important for the next era or like kind of the general sense. But I think

I think similar to Midwest princess, it's a lot of, we're going to have one song. It's a little dancey and like one, like a little disco and even pink pony clubs, like a little country. And in a sense, the storytelling and how it's done, this is obviously more explicitly twangy, but this was clearly, I want to do this country song because I grew up listening to country music and love country music. And so it's a fun.

Little experiment for her right she is from Missouri after all so It makes sense another important thing to remember There's this great song. I don't know is it subway or the subway um

I think it's just Subway. Okay. So this is song Subway. Or The Subway. Yeah. Wait, I'm trying to remember. All right. There's a song. It is either called, it has the word Subway in it. It's either Subway or The Subway. I've loved that song. I've heard it just on YouTube and it has a killer chorus, like a lost sort of, I don't know, like a rock set song or something. Great 80s rock chorus. She's not just a subway girl.

And that one, fans have convinced themselves might be the next single. And I hope so. Frankly, like that song a lot better. That's one of her best songs, honestly. Yeah. I remember when we talked about that because she had debuted it at GovBall, I think was the first performance. And it was a big part of the festival circuit and her live shows last year. I think she was right about this. It didn't feel like a good follow up to Good Luck Babe because it's a little bit slower. You know, it's more of a power ballad type of song. Yeah.

And obviously the songs that were blowing up for her were like her really high energy, like Hot To Go and Pink Pony Club and Good Luck Babe. So it made sense why she didn't drop that right away because Good Luck Babe also is still months and months of being really big. I don't want to call it love, but you don't want to call it love.

But yeah, so she was just kind of like that song will come out, but she didn't want to drop it as like a full single rollout so soon after Good Luck Babe and all of these old songs were still kind of like in the mix. I think it was a smart sort of strategy because those were had such longevity last year. And yeah, I think that song will definitely come pretty soon. Yeah, that'll be interesting if it's just a series of singles with no album inside. I mean, she is going to probably release an album relatively soon.

But I think, yeah, like the, with the singles and dropping them and stuff like that, cause she was very invested in making an actual like next album was so much about like, she has these live shows and she wants to like, all these songs are pretty old that are still like kind of blowing up. So she was like, you know, she wants to put stuff in the live show anyway, but wants to spend her time and take her time to actually make an album that she's excited about instead of trying to push something out. Which is also a really smart strategy of not trying to

you know, keep pushing and pushing and pushing until, you know, you're run dry of all your stuff. Not to get too deep into it, because it's sort of a whole other discussion, but the caller daddy, Brittany, you and I were talking about the fact that whenever she does an interview, maybe not so much with yours, but there seems to be a backlash when she speaks in public often. And I think it's because she doesn't speak like a celebrity.

There's a great Tina Fey quote where she says, authenticity is dangerous and expensive. Where she basically is warning Bowen Yang about just talking like a person on a podcast that basically the clock is ticking on his ability to do that, to think without gauging a hundred things.

And she's on a mission to prove that for her, authenticity is not dangerous and expensive, that she can just say whatever. Because she says things like that anyone who was calculating as a celebrity would not say, like, every parent I know is miserable. There's absolutely no benefit to saying that as a celebrity, but it's just a thing that she feels and she says it. Yeah.

the thing is, and I think this is a really good point that she does make in the longer, you know, the interview clip, obviously, that also went really viral was her talking about, like, being a celebrity, talking about politics. And the clip was condensed, and it didn't include the larger part of it, which is that because

she is a queer woman, there is an expectation that she should have some sort of like expertise or be super like, you know, have like a kind of like a very political kind of stance on everything. And she made a greater point that like she does not have the information on everything and is not going to doesn't feel comfortable sort of

attaching her name and you know her career as an artist to every sort of like everything that people want her to speak about or know about or have any sense of um

And I think that was a very valid and important point because obviously the expectations for women and people of color and queer artists are much higher than like for, you know, like no one's asking like Noah Kahn, like his like opinions on stuff. No offense to Noah Kahn, I'm a big fan of his, but you know, there's a difference in how people ask Chappell something versus like him. It's interesting because even like the,

podcast caller daddy, that's the point of the podcast is you're kind of just talking about like random stuff and people kind of picking out all of that's all of those things that she was saying. Like, I don't know, that's a pretty typical kind of like 26, 27 year old stance on like, yeah, like your 26 year old friends who are having children are like, their lives are just different. You know, like you're just kind of like talking about that and, um, analyzing what that looks like in their lives in your life. Um,

I know. I feel like it's sort of ridiculous and silly. I think people, obviously, it's that early kind of hate wave that happens for artists who blow up really fast. And like people are trying to pick and choose different things that kind of piss them off about her and about any artist that kind of blows up this fast. And, you know, she's not super media trained. She's

was not anticipating it getting that big last year, you know, very genuinely. And I don't think anyone could have anticipated the type of success that she ended up having last year. It was pretty unprecedented for that to happen, especially with so many older songs. But I'm happy that she speaks out on what she speaks out about and what she says. Like, I think she's...

stood up for her fellow artists a lot. And I think that's the most important part is that she's like really fighting for her peers. And yeah, that's really great. What she said about the artists is she wants artists to be treated as employees of the record label, but that's the last thing they should want. Because if you're employees of the record label, they own all your intellectual property. It's if you're an employee who gets health insurance of a label, that's the, that is, that would destroy artists careers and situation in the,

So that suggests she made this huge statement at the Grammys without having anyone who knows the business look at what she says. So I do think that she wants to have the ability to kind of just spout off like a person while being a huge celebrity. And I think, honestly, it's just an adjustment period, if you see what I'm saying. That clearly shows she took this big moment, made this big statement that was meant to shake the industry, but didn't actually...

even take the simple step of making sure what she says like really made sense you know so it started a big conversation though I think that's I think what it comes down to is like obviously her saying that was not going to immediately like you know like labels were gonna be like we have to figure this out but I think like it started a conversation about like access to these things and you know kind of artists being supported and in different ways by their teams and by their labels and um

But, you know, yeah, I think it's I think it's OK for her to be 26 and say these things, even if she's not like a million percent like, you know, the sort of expert on it. But I think the more important part is that with that platform, she's creating conversations that are going to be ultimately, I think, beneficial. She's 27 now.

She's pretty soon not going to be able to be like, she's just 30 and saying these things. 27 is pretty old. I'm sorry. The classic thing is people get stunted at the age, either they get famous or enter the music industry. So, I mean, she talks about high school a lot for a 27 year old. I was really struck by that in the caller daddy. She's like the boys at high school. And then that's when I had to look up again, how old she is. Cause I was like, it's like, you're 27. Like, this is obviously like a lot of this soap.

That's what happens and that also helps you write music that relates to young people when you're if you're a little bit mentally stuck and being 17 and that's you know a lot of our pop stars I mean Taylor, you know, we're you know, she's still unpacking stuff that happened to her in high school It's been a long time since she pulled out I was unpopular in junior high like that We've said goodbye to that to some extent it's branding that like you said, you know her image is a little younger than she is and it

On some level, it makes sense for her to say things that make her seem like a 19-year-old. When she's uttering very 19-year-old opinions, which she does about almost everything she expresses opinions about, there's a certain sense of she's speaking to her crowd by speaking in 19-year-old speak. And she's very aggressively... It's not like she accidentally stumbles in front of a live microphone and accidentally says something she doesn't mean to say. These are obviously...

opinions that she's very proud of and very, very, very eager to publicize. To me, this seems part of a presentation. Yeah. And you know, the other thing is I'm perfectly capable. She's one of my favorite artists right now. I love her music and I don't have to agree with everything that she or any other artist says. And I don't also don't have to be like best friends with them. I just have to like their music. And so I think that I have seen a lot of people being like, I don't love everything she says and,

Or even the way she says it but I don't really care because her music fucking rules her music is is just impeccable So I don't care what she says honestly as long as she doesn't go full kanye I'm gonna ignore it It has to go that far for me to worry about it and I don't I don't see that happening It's funny even saying full kanye is like every week that means something even worse. I mean something terrible It's like a new horror has showed itself by the time you by the time you hear this

Fault Kanye will mean something much worse than an ebb and flow. Yeah. So then there's Lady Gaga's Mayhem, and Andrew Watt was on to talk a little bit about the making of that carefully because it wasn't out yet. This album is such a triumph and such an example of an artist embracing everything they're good at, and she's good at a lot of things. You know, there's the moments that are like...

Ultra Gaga, like Gaga on Gaga, most notably Abracadabra, which is just like Gaga multiplied by Gaga doing Gaga. It's just so... The nachos were in fact reheated. Yes. What is it? Okay. What is the... Where the fuck did this nachos thing originally come from? Okay. I actually, I knew it, but I can't remember. It's from like...

a reality show or something okay that's why i don't know and like i think people just like you know it's like one of those things where it's like a phrase that came from like a meme that then became like a different like you know it's just like kind of went through multiple levels of like now this means this um but it was from like some like meme or i think like a reality show clip unpack the meaning for those who've never heard this phrase

So to reheat nachos, either one's or someone else's, means that you are in a way copying your own style or their style. So for example, people were like, Selena is reheating Charli XCX's nachos on Bluest Flame. It's because Bluest Flame sounds so much like a Charli song. Obviously, Charli wrote it, but the vocal styling, it's very brat Charli coded, that sort of clipped...

you know, singing. So everyone's saying Gaga reheated her own nachos means that she is like reusing and kind of going back to some old classic Gaga styles. Well, she had a great response to this. I know it can be used in both in positive and negative ways, but I would say that my nachos are mine and I invented them and I'm proud of them, which is perfect. And it's true. It is true. We love, we love the Gaga nachos because it sounds great on mayhem. Oh,

Yeah, I was thinking, listening to it again, it's really just a masterclass in not just making, you know, great Lady Gaga songs, but just making great pop songs. Like every chorus hits...

She just understands pop music and songwriting. Like she, she is a student of the nachos. She has embraced the nachos. She is a master chef of nachos. Yeah. I just like, I'm such a fan of when she goes like more industrial and heavier in her music.

Obviously, that was a big part of Born This Way. A lot of the songs on that album lean towards her metal taste and roots and the industrial sound. Think of Heavy Metal Lover and Black Jesus and all those songs are so heavy. It's

It's on Chromatica a little bit, which I feel like people are erasing how great Chromatica was, and I will not stand for that. You're absolutely right. I will also ride for Joanne. Many people won't, but I'm there. I like it a lot. I'm in it. She's actually been very consistent in being excellent. She just hasn't been consistent in sound nor would I have wanted her to be.

Yeah. And I think this one, I think my favorite version of Gaga is when she does go a little bit darker, industrial, heavy kind of sound. This made me really, really yearn for her and Trent Reznor to get into the studio together so badly. I mean, because like Killa sounds so much like I'm afraid of Americans to me. And like, I'm just like, I need that. Like,

I desperately need that to happen because I loved when he worked with Halsey, I Need Gaga, and Trent to get on the studio together. I'm mildly obsessed and have been for a long time with Gesafelstein, who's the producer who worked on Killa. And he does a very Trent-esque thing. He did stuff with the now unnameable Kanye that was really cool. He's done a lot of cool stuff. Yeah, with The Weeknd a lot. Yeah, I think you get a lot of the working with...

thing by working with him. Which is the one that everyone thought that was like a secret. How bad do you want me? Oh yeah. Yeah. I love that song. So how bad do you want me is an incredible song. It also really, really does sound like an homage to Taylor. So gorgeous reputation coded, like absolutely obsessed with it.

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I know, you know, there's definitely a mutual respect there. Gaga's been a longtime Taylor supporter and, you know, obviously Taylor loves Gaga. She came out every night on the Heiress Tour to applause. Also, you can say, I feel like, you know, even Taylor, when she started to step more into like step away from country and to like the kind of synth pop space, like reputation is so Gaga coded too. Yeah.

which is probably why I love reputation so much as well. But like, it's like, um, it very much feels like some of those like moments on the fame and like fame monster. And even, you know, again, like people were pointing out to like, how bad do you want me to feel? So like fame era Gaga in its own way. So there is kind of that fusion there already. Um,

Where it's like, oh, look what you made me do couldn't exist without a little bit of that Gaga-ness. You have to kind of enter that Gaga headspace to make a look what you made me do type of song. Definitely. Even the language that Taylor used to describe that stuff in those albums was very much the same kind of industrial...

language that Gaga would use. So for sure, I think you're 100% right. Another tailored connection is I think this album is sort of the evermore to Chromatica's folklore, that they're very much sister albums. Chromatica, just an album that deserved a totally different arc. It was an album made to be the perfect pop album for a world that didn't exist anymore by the time the album came out. And it was designed to be a live banger album

for a world with no live bangers, as it turned out. And Chromatica was really sort of orphaned by history. I feel like with this album, she's really brought Chromatica. For some reason, like this album and Chromatica just really, this seems like this album seems in so many ways like total vindication for Chromatica. Yeah. She is just such a fantastic songwriter who is so learned at all the tricks that make a song work. And

Again, the Taylor connection, they blew up around the same time. They had so many of the same fans in the very beginning. They have always had sort of parallel careers. But for me, it's really kind of beautiful to see Mayhem sort of give Chromatica the do-over that it's always deserved. Yeah, the pandemic thing, as you said, was...

you can make a list of things, movies and music that got unfairly kind of limited in impact by the pandemic. And I think that Chromatica is pretty high on the list actually. Yeah. Also like, yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot, I feel like this, I feel like the great thing about mayhem is I think there's a lot of conversations happening now that probably should have happened even earlier about the, the Gaga effect. Um, you know, I think in like a lot of

her influence on a lot of modern artists. Obviously, you know, there's so many connections, like, you know, Chapel is very explicitly a huge Gaga fan, right? And like so many other artists who very much cite her, but even thinking like, you know, with Chromatica itself, like thinking of, um,

That release and again it got so swallowed by timing and just you know I think it was just kind of like coming off of a star is born and plus the pandemic like there was like kind of a not a lot of fighting chance for that album But she did like that incredible remix album for it too that I think people didn't really talk a lot about where she had all these artists reimagined it which was very much what Charlie did with brat and like what a lot of artists have sort of

been attempting is this thing that she already did like a couple of years ago with Chromatica, where she literally re-released the album with a bunch of artists that she loves, like re-imagining and remixing and rewriting those songs in a really big way. So I think there's a lot of smaller things that people are starting to take notice of, of like Gaga's influence and effect

bigger than just her kind of fashion and bigger than changing from album to album and reinventing herself. But I think people are starting to talk a lot more musically and songwriting wise, production wise, kind of the stuff that she's really pushed to the edge with in a way. But I think that's really important because she's so influential. I've kind of always been on this to the point where in one of my Gaga cover stories, I got yelled at by fans of literally five artists because I wrote a very brave paragraph that I didn't

realize they didn't think about because I pointed out her influence on multiple artists specifically by name and in the stands of every single artist mentioned went after me for like a month especially the Christina Aguilera ones it was it was a it was a tough month it was one of my first it was at the dawn of Twitter and it was my first taste of how that could be but I stand by it if you made a list of the most influential artists of the 21st century period which actually is an interesting list to do you should think about that

I think Gaga's really high up. I think that in many ways she shaped pop in her image afterwards. I think the whole idea of chart pop as an art project that really everyone has subsequently embraced really

as a self-conscious art project, char pop has always been our project just to be clear. Um, but I really think that she really helped put that in people's minds for this century. And also just the, you know, the idea of pop stars, uh,

self-consciously weird again after this sort of Britney era of where it was a much more kind of like straight ahead, shiny thing. She's just, her, her influence is incalculable. I think she's, she's just a tremendously important artist. And I think that it's, uh, it's nice to see people recognizing that. Yeah. I,

Obviously, she pulled the concept of that reinvention from album to album from Madonna and Bowie and used that and spoke very candidly about wanting to pull from that. But it became such a more commonplace thing for pop artists to be like, I'm now entering a new character for this album or I'm changing my hair and my entire style and making a whole new musical genre. Gaga made that such a reality and a thing in pop music in a way that was pretty...

great um and pretty fun so you know yeah she's her influence is kind of incredible but i think the the reheating not just thing obviously you know i'm saying it kind of playfully because i actually believe that this album is very brilliant in its own right and um you know does pull from who gaga just is but it is very fun to have people sort of revisit

her career and her impact in a way that she very much deserves. It's so insanely unfair to take other albums and be like, this doesn't sound like what we want from this artist. And then to simultaneously say an artist has to wildly reinvent themselves on each album. It's just, it's just this insane contradiction that no one can handle.

Uh, and why can't, it's so wild to be like, Lady Gaga isn't allowed to sound like Lady Gaga to me, the most like ridiculous, unfair thing you could possibly say. Like who, who else, who else can be like Gaga? La la la. Like who else is allowed to do that? It's like, do we want Dua Lipa to do that? Like it's what she, it's what she does. So, and she should do it every album as far as I'm concerned, if she wants to. So yeah, I think, I think it's great. And this tour is going to be insane. No doubt.

Strictly as a songwriter, as a musician, she's one of those artists where that's the aspect of what she does that people pay the less attention to. Her image mongering, to me, is not one of the top five things that are most interesting about her. I think of her as a songwriter who is a truly great one. And...

this album is we've compared it to born this way which is you know a fantastic one and also chromatica and something that all three of these have in common is that she's not always deeply interested in the album format per se daga is somebody who's interested in the album format comes and goes she's got other things she likes to do with her musical ideas but uh born this way chromatica and

Mayhem sort of form a trilogy in terms of albums where she's really focusing on the album as a musical presentation format in itself. I think those are three albums that are really kind of musically linked for her. Yeah.

Brittany, I love that you are so ride or die for Joanne. I totally love that. I'm there with Joanne until the end of time. I think that album... You've always been there for Joanne. I love that. You know, there's a few duds on there. And same with R-Pop. Like, both those albums, I really love, but there are very clear, like, the worst Gaga songs on those two albums, which, you know, that's just how it is. But they also have some of the best Gaga songs on there. Like, I mean, I think A Million Reasons is a very underrated ballad. I bow down

You know, I think there's like the two sides of Gaga, right? There's, I mean, three sides. There's the jazz Gaga. There's the, the ballot power ballad Gaga, who has become an increasing presence in the Gaga cannon. Um, and then there's like the full pop Gaga, right? And like power ballad Gaga is like really, really, really great. You know, when she really goes for it, um, obviously shallow, as we know, as a song that I, um, will stand by for until the end of time. Um,

A Million Reasons is incredible. Perfect Illusion. I recently did that karaoke. Great song.

So good. Amazing lead single. So before we wrap, when do you think we're going to hear from Taylor Swift again? Rob, I want to hear your theories on what's coming from Taylor. So many theories, so little knowledge. It's really well that this has been her quietest four month span in quite a few years. Yeah. You'd have to go back to early 2022 for a period of prolonged Taylor radio silence like this one.

And from what we know about literally everything in her history, a period of Taylor radio silence means she's doing a big project that we're going to hear an awful lot about. We do have the two Taylor's versions that her name and reputation. So obviously those, those are so fraught with despair at this point that she, you know, even at the radio awards, she's still dangling debutation. Yeah. Oh,

Which can only mean that it's the furthest thing from her mind. I presume she did them already. And they're just... I mean, we know they did. We know she did, right? They're just sitting around. We do? Didn't one song slip out from Reputation TV in an ad or something? Am I crazy? Yeah, there was a... They used Delicate, I think. There was some like... I mean, the same way that she did with 1989, right? Wildest Dreams was in an ad. Okay, yeah. I've nailed this down. They used...

the teller's version of the song Delicate in season two of the show The Summer I Turned Pretty. So yes, confirmed. Yeah, I think there has to be another album. I feel like we're very close to getting a new album because it's almost too quiet. And I did, before we wrap, I did want to shout out the new Gracie Abrams debuted this song Death Wish live at the O2 Arena and people loved it. And then she actually just dropped the live version. And it's actually one of my favorite songs by her. Oh,

How long will you give me till you twist the knot?

Even though she's had huge hits, I feel like she's still evolving as a songwriter because she's super young and early in her career. And I feel like what to me are the rough edges in her songwriting seem to be getting rounded off in a good way. And I really like this song. I think it's pretty elegant. I love it. I love how it's clearly looking forward to her festival summer. Yeah. And I kind of like her like going for more kind of stadium pop anthems. That's So True has been on repeat since she put it out. That's in the top of my like most listened to songs this year. That you think is so cool.

Get back on your couch, make it nice. She looked at the Lollapalooza poster and she was like, I'm in pretty big type there. Yeah. I gotta write a song. Gotta compete with Korn. Yeah. That's right. Like, for it to be...

Olivia Sabrina, Gracie, the Titans of Lollapalooza this year. I think she is self-consciously rising to that occasion with Death Wish. That's something I love about that song. Yeah. It's actually Olivia Rodrigo is headlining the same night as Korn at Lollapalooza. So that's going to be... Which is a real... If I had to go to Lollapalooza, it would...

and me. That would actually be the end of my life, was trying to pick between the two of them. Are those going to be two stages at the same time? Yeah, I think they're going to be playing at the same time. Yeah, it would be the same time. They better crank up the volume on the Olivia stage. That's all I can say. Much like one of the worst times I had to choose between was the first year I went to La Palooza, the Strokes and Interpol are playing at the same time, and I had to choose between the two of them. That's just dumb. That's just dumb. I was like, first off, they sound, they're from the same era. Like, you gotta, like,

You got to mix it up. You got to put like a like a corn versus Olivia moment, you know. But then again, that is also a real Britney's choice situation. Someone's going to stand at the exact half point between the two stages and record it. And it's going to somehow line up perfectly. Olivia's new festival show is more corn than corn. It seems like it's already on a next level. I was really impressed.

Yeah, I mean, I think she's just like a, you know, she's embracing the fact that she is a rock star. You know, she's a rock girl. Like she loves like 90s rock music. She loves that vibe. She's like really going for it with her. She has an incredible band with her. She's owning this like big rock star persona. She's way more comfortable. She made an album that's way higher energy than her. I mean, her debut also has like a lot of...

very high energy tracks, but it's much more of a ballad focused album. But Guts is clearly so much more of teen movie soundtrack, late 90s, early 2000s rock moment. And I think she's really kind of embracing that side of herself. So it makes me very excited for whatever she's working on next. Her festival tour of 2025 is so different from the Guts tour last year. The Guts tour last year, it had...

so much theater kid energy. It had costume changes and props and interludes where she's like floating around the arena on a giant crescent moon. Here she's just going for an all out, like just punk rock headbanger blowout show. It's just astounding that she has taken that aspect, which has always been an aspect of what Olivia does. And she's just throwing everything else out the window and just focused on that and done just a flat out,

rock and roll show. It's completely phenomenal. Those festival sets have been not just a huge break with her guts tour, but a real bold breakthrough for Olivia as a performer. Yeah. Well, given all these rock vibes, I think it's appropriate that the most influential band of the 21st century is rumored to be reuniting Pink Slip from Freaky Friday. There are rumors that it's coming back in Freakier Friday, and I couldn't be more excited. So that's... I'm about to become...

Even more annoying. I'm about to become the worst version of myself that you've ever seen. If true, it's the biggest music news of the year, no doubt. Yeah. The Freaky Friars soundtrack still has a real hold on me. I listened to that album way more than a person should in the year 2025. Rob and Brittany, as always, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. Thank you so much.

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