Spin Doctors Confidential: Chris Barron Looks Back on His Band's Ups and Downs
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I'm Brian Hyatt. This is Rolling Stone Music Now. I'm here with Chris Barron, lead singer of the Spin Doctors, who have their first album out in 12 years. It's called Face Full of Cake. We'll talk about the new music, but also dive back into the 90s and much more. Thanks for being here. I appreciate it. Brian, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's just Rolling Stone, bro. It's no joke.

The new album, Face Full of Cake, the best compliment I can pay to it is if it was some new band that I was not familiar with and I heard it, I would say, who's this band? They're really good. And I think that is really all you can strive for at this point in your career. Yeah, that's a really great compliment. That's exactly what we're going for. Band at this stage in our career to make something that sounds fresh enough to where...

The guy from Rolling Stone would say that. It makes me feel great. Thank you for saying that. I mean it. The first single, Still a Gorilla, really took me by surprise because it's got this fire-breathing fuzz riff, and it's really got a lot of kind of like testosterone in it. It rocked hard for any era of this band, but it's nice to hear that fire from guys at your point. Thank you. I might be human, but just enough.

You know, that's always been a sort of a, I don't know, a bone that I've had to pick with the impression that people have of the band because we come out of this like kind of grunge era and we were heavily influenced by bands like the Red Hot Chili Peppers and that like hard funk kind of thing.

and a lot of greasy, nasty old blues and stuff. The songs that we're known for, Little Miss Can't Be Wrong and Two Princes, I think kind of put us in this slot in people's minds of this kind of happy pop band. That's a big dimension of what the band is all about. But we've always had kind of a really heavy side. People who are familiar with the albums, with the entirety of the albums, know that we've got some... I think we were as heavy as a lot of the bands that were out there at the time were.

But, you know, what we're known for is the lighter, happier pop stuff. And I got no complaints about that, but I'm glad to hear you say that. It's cool. Yeah, I mean, even on Pocketful of Kryptonite, there were definitely darker, heavier tracks in between the hits, for sure. Yeah, Aaron, our drummer, Aaron Comis, who's a very brilliant guy, and he composed a lot of the music on these albums, and I wrote lyrics to it. Aaron, in the very beginning, speaking about the repertoire, was like, we should have...

songs with different tempos, different tonal landscapes, major and minor, different rhythms, and different moods, which is like a very...

very musical way of saying like our songs should be different from each other. You know what I mean? And, you know, we're, you know, kind of in that jam band scene as well. You know, we came out of the same scene as, as, you know, fish and like blues traveler. And so we've, you know, kind of a multidimensional, you know, improvisational kind of band. Speaking of fish, multidimensional,

Mike Gordon, your friend from that band, I forget if you wrote at his studio, recorded at his studio, what was the involvement here? Yeah, we stayed, he's got like a guest house with a studio in it. And as lockdown was kind of winding down, we were like, about time we made a record. And we hadn't written together in a while. Eric Shankman, our guitar player,

He lives in Toronto and I live in New York City. And so it was just like halfway in between because Mike had said to me like, oh, if you ever want to work in this studio, you can totally do it. So it was just like halfway in between our two houses. And it was great. You know, it was like,

we hadn't seen each other in like 18 months because of lockdown and you know i think in our case like a lot of bands they get together because their friends you know they went to high school like our friends blues traveler went to high school together our friends hootie and the blowfish they were i think of the same frat together in college you know we weren't like that we were all like these guys are trying to cut it in new york city we were a band because we thought the other three guys were the best players

around. But over the decades that we've been working together, we've come to be really good friends. And so I was like, you know, at Mike's house, I got there first and I got a text from Eric. He's like, I'm like here and I'm just like a half a mile away. And I got like verklempt. Like I was like, I hadn't seen him in 18 months. It was like the longest I'd gone without seeing him in a really long time. So, you know, that was part of like the creative energy for sure was just looking at and seeing each other in a long time.

the epilogue of what I was saying is that we've become really, really close over the years. But I think that was like a moment, you know, just like seeing each other and just being like, wow. So we, he and I wrote, you know, like three songs in like three hours or something like that. Wow. When you're recording at Mike Gordon's house, does he stop by? Does he hang out at all? Or is it kind of just... Yeah, we were like his guests, you know? So, I mean, no, he like left us alone while we were working. And then we were just like, okay, we're done. We like walking in the side door, like we're done.

Mike's got this beautiful, like great big house. We're like, hello, find your way to the kitchen. And we were like, you know, eating. I love Mike. He's a very funny, eccentric kind of guy. So, you know, then we were like basically like house guests of, of Mike Gordon, like wandering around in our pajamas, you know, like he's got all these crazy instruments. Check this out. I love that. It's so fascinating to, you know, fish,

Never had a hit. Yeah, and you had a ton of them. It's interesting how those paths diverge I spoke to Brandi Carlile a while ago and she was saying She never wanted a hit and she's glad she never had a hit and she doesn't want one because she's afraid that it would crystallize her too much or just trap her or whatever yeah, and then I was thinking I think it was great to have hits and

for you guys, but is there any part of you who wishes it was some kind of different path where you just focused on the jamming and the road and, you know? I would be lying if I didn't say, like, I've sort of wondered about the different kinds of success that the band could have had, you know? In the end, your career is like your career. So, and talking to somebody like Mike, it's a really great sort of reality check too, you know, because Mike is like,

you guys have like, you know, I don't know how, like 350 million plays on like Spotify. That's crazy. You know, we're like, you guys do like 13 nights at Madison Square Garden. But you know, like the, the admiration and the wonder is kind of like equal on both sides, which is like, what the hell is your career all about? And then this is a bit of a left turn, but

When I was a little kid, there was a kid on my block who had a big wheel. Big wheel was like a toy from the 70s that was like basically a big plastic tricycle with a big wheel in the front of it. It's probably best known now to young people from The Shining. That's what he drives around the hotel. Yes, exactly. A little kid in the hotel is riding a big wheel. And I wanted one so bad. And my dad, his name is Ken Gross, and he's like a...

world famous automotive journalist. And they were very dangerous. Big wheels were very dangerous because it was below the sight line of a car. There was no way I was ever going to get a big wheel because they were just like too dangerous. And there was a kid in my neighborhood who had one. And, um, I had this conversation right before bedtime with my dad, like, can I have a big wheel? No, you know, Mark has one. I don't care. You're never getting a big wheel. And I like the last thing I thought before I went to bed was like, I wish I was Mark. And I dreamed that I was Mark. Yeah.

And I was sitting at the dinner table. Mark's mom and dad came in and there was like this dinner and it was like cardboard, you know, not like my mom's cooking. And like Mark had like a sister, you know, that I made up in the dream. And they all had Mark's mom and dad and the sister all had like thick coarse hair coming out of their ears and noses. And they sat at dinner and there was nobody was laughing and nobody was joking like we did at our dinner table. And I woke up and I was like, I never want to be anybody but me.

And that has like stayed with me my whole life. So, you know, you dream about like, you dream about, you're like, I definitely like, I would love to be playing 13 nights at Madison Square Garden. But like, what other thing would that come with? I don't know. And I'm afraid of like that. So, you know, I'm like, I live in a two bedroom apartment. I own a two bedroom apartment in New York City. Drive my Subaru. Got a 26 year old daughter. Super happily married. I got two cats. And like Eric Shankman is,

Aaron Comis, Jack Daly are like three of the best musicians of the 90s. And I get to sing like Two Princes, which is a really good fucking song, man. And Little Miss Can't Be Wrong. I love singing those tunes. People go nuts when we play them. Little Miss.

For sure, there are moments in my career where like, okay, second record. What if we had like put out Big Fat Funky Booty instead of Cleopatra's Cat, you know, and tried to like ram that down like radio's throat? What if we had done this or that or the other thing? Like, where would we be now? But in the end, in the aggregate of musicians, the fact that I make an upper middle class living music,

homeowner in Manhattan, you know, playing tunes that I wrote. It's hard to

like want to trade places with anybody, you know? You got nothing to complain about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. You brought up the second album and Cleopatra's Cat because I've always been kind of fascinated with that. And one of my colleagues, we've actually talked about it multiple times, and we remember the debut of Cleopatra's Cat on MTV. It was debut with much fanfare. Yeah. And the funny thing is I've gone back and listened to it. That's a very cool song. I love Cleopatra's Cat. Cleopatra's favorite cat.

Cleopatra's favorite king. I think...

As a teenager, I didn't get it at first. And I think perhaps there were a lot of teenagers who were ready for more kind of like crunchy, power poppy stuff. We're just like, basically, excuse me, but basically like, what the fuck is this? Yeah, yeah, totally. Picture Beavis and Butthead, you know, reacting. We got too fucking cute. We got too cute. You know, we were getting cute. We thought, I think like that wasn't my call for one thing. And I think like,

The logic was we're going to like stretch this out. But, you know, it was like that thing where like sometimes like there's no tomorrow. Like you got to bring out like Mariano Rivera. It doesn't matter how his arm's going to be tomorrow because like, you know, you got to, if you don't win the game tonight, Mariano Rivera's arm doesn't make any difference. You know, that was a funny, it was a funny call, but I was really young, you know, I was only like 25, 26. So, you know, I just kind of like went along with it.

Now I think I'm much better now about my instincts, but it's, you know, you call it instincts, but it's like also I'm 57 years old and I've been down the road before. And, um, you know, if, if I was going to like actually like offer some kind of advice to any listener, I got some really great advice from my friend Jeff Cohen years ago. And he was just like, if you got a gut feeling and you don't listen to it and it goes wrong,

you'll eat your heart out. But if you've got a gut feeling and you go with it and it's a mistake...

you can console yourself. You know, you can say, well, I really thought that was the right thing to do at the time, you know? So from now, if I have a gut feeling, I just, I take it as far as I can. You know what I mean? I'll say something and like try and make the gut feeling happen. Um, the gut feeling decision happened. If I can't, I can't, but at least I'll always know like that, that I went with it. I had a, I didn't have a great feeling about that.

On the new album, you have Boombox's great song. It actually has, for people looking for a little bit of that power poppy crunch, it has that, I would say. It really, really harkens back to that, so I really enjoyed that one. She had a boombox

I think my favorite track in the new album is Rock and Roll Heaven. It's a funny song, but it has some emotional punch to it. Yeah. Tell me about writing that one. Thank you. Thank you. I really, like, I got lucky with that lyric. I was at a festival in Spain, and it's funny, but, like...

I've barely ever been to any music festivals because I went to Lollapalooza before the band got big. But you know, when you're in a band, like you go to a festival, you roll in, you do your set and then you just roll out. You don't really get to hang. But I've got some friends in Spain who have a music festival in a tiny town in Galicia called Pueymurto. My friend, Luth Casal is a big pop star and a rock rock star in Spain and

And it's her festival and her partner, Paco Perez-Briand, who's a famous radio personality there. I've been friends with them since the early 90s. And this, you know, I played their solo acoustic and I try to go as many years as I as I can. And so it's like I just go and I hang at this festival. I do a set, but I'm just like, hey, everybody there, like all the audience people just know me.

And I'm just walking around just drinking 4,000 beers and just checking out bands the whole weekend. And, um, you know, this is my job and everything, but I love, I love rock and roll and I love bands and I love checking stuff out. I got free random going backstage and stuff. So I just started thinking about like, you know, like any job, rock and roll is a job, you know? And I, I never, I generally don't like to emphasize that in interviews because I think most people just don't even want to hear about that aspect, you know? But there's, um,

a lot of grueling travel and there are a lot of like ins and outs of the whole thing. And I just started like thinking about like, you know, what, what would heaven be like for a rock and roll musician?

And, you know, I'm just thinking of all the like difficult things. So it's got these like great, the promoter's got a pizza and all your bread. You know, every seat in the van goes down. You know, it's just all these things about like, you know, you always get paid. The mics are new and the guitars are old. You know, mics, you go into a bar and the mics smells like beer. And you can tell like a club that cares about music because the mic stands are new.

and the mics are like clean and nice and new. But you don't want a new guitar, you want an old vintage guitar. So it's really like, when I watch musicians hear this song and they're just like, yes, that would be heaven, you know? So there is like a wistful kind of feeling because you do have to die to go to heaven. So there's a bit of a, which I'm glad you like that song. I really worked hard on that lyric. Does part of you like to think that that's where you'll actually get to go?

As long as I get to be with my cats, my wife and my daughter. And I, you know, it's funny. My brother died in August. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you. And it's the worst, worst thing I've ever been through. And, you know, I'm not a particularly religious person.

And clearly, like, nobody knows what happens after you die. But I decided that, like, okay, from here on out, I do believe, like, we're all going to be together again after we die. Because I just can't bear to imagine a universe where I don't get to see my brother again, you know? I think of him when I play that song now. He wasn't gone when I wrote the song, but now it's come to... The night he died, we actually had a gig. Yeah.

and there were no flights out to get home. So we played that song at the end of the night. And so, yeah, I'll always think of him when I play that song.

It does make sense that one would rather be with their family members than Buddy Holly, as cool as it would be to see. I hope it's both, you know. I figure it's the afterlife, so I'm sure it's like this multidimensional, kind of like this kaleidoscopic version of existence. So I'm sure you can do whatever you want, right? Right. Hopefully you can meet the big bopper and see old friends and family. Let's hope it goes that way.

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I was reading you talking about the very earliest days of the band after you formed, and you were pointing out, you know, you guys were, at the beginning, were playing out incredibly often in New York. Yeah. Just in New York. And you were pointing out back then, people went out more. Yeah. That in order to experience life, you had to leave the house. Yeah. And that you were benefiting from that, which I thought was a broad but interesting point. Yeah. You know, I think the cool thing about, like...

me giving an interview with you is like just talking about a world that doesn't exist anymore and to try and like describe what that was like and um and maybe um to take you know some of the things from that that were that were like you know wholesome and and and truthful and uh maybe try and like fold them back into into modern life you know because we yeah we would like

I played every night and we played a different set every night because we loved the Grateful Dead, but we realized that that was a brilliant way to go because people...

if they knew you were going to play different songs every night, they'd come and see you every night. And they did. You know, we had like, we had the same people. We had different people, but we also had a lot of the core of our fans in New York City were just coming to, you know, half of the gigs or all of the gigs or, you know, multiple gigs. And we didn't have cell phones and, which is like such a hackneyed thing to say, but it's true. And we would like, you know, you'd be like, okay, it's Friday night. First house is playing the Nightingale. You know, I know this,

that Dave Melody will be there, probably like the Blues Traveler aren't playing tonight, so they'll probably, you know, one or two of those guys will be there. You know, this girl that I like will probably be there because she loves that band. And you would just go. And you wouldn't know who was going to be there. You weren't like texting somebody like, you know...

Okay, I'm leaving the house. Okay, I'm five blocks away. Okay, I'm outside the door. Okay, I'm walking through the door. Like you didn't know where anybody was, you know, and you would just, you'd go and you'd be like, you'd go to the first bar and you'd see who's there, link up with people. You'd call people on the phone maybe and be like, hey, I'll meet you at the thing. But like, you know, life had a lot more surprises. It was a lot more spontaneous, you know, it was much more of an improvisation experience.

than it is now. And it was much less self-conscious. I haven't thought about this in a while, but like at the end of the night, I was broke, right? I mean, really, really broke. I had like no, no money. And especially before the band started, before the spin doctor started working. So I moved to New York City and I lived with Blues Traveler.

And, um, so I would play acoustic in between their sets. And like I said, I had no money. I would go around with a cup and, you know, at the end of the night I'd have seven bucks or something like that. When you say you lived with Blues Traveler, they all live together in one place? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We lived, um, we lived on Bergen street, uh, between like a third and fourth Avenue in Brooklyn. And I had, um, like my rent was like 200 bucks. We had like five of us were like living in this one apartment. It was just an animal house. And, um,

It was just like drugs and alcohol nonstop. And it was very rock and roll. Not nonstop. Not first thing in the morning. Breakfast first. Yeah, yeah. A little breakfast. So yeah. And basically I was playing in between their sets at this little bar, the Nightingale. And at the end of the night, to make a little bit of extra cash, I would fall off of a barstool.

Which is to say that the guys, like Bobby Sheehan, the late, great Bobby Sheehan, their bass player, he was practically like a carnival barker. They would go around the room and they would be like, Chris is going to fall off a bar stool. It's spectacular. I was really good at pratfalls as a young person. And so they would get up five bucks or eight bucks, would get everybody to put in a dollar or a quarter or five bucks or something like that. And I would do this insane pratfall operation.

I'm like flip off of this barstool. It looked like I was killing myself and everybody like just laughed their ass off and be like, do it again. And I'd be like, you gotta give me more money. And I was, you know, I like, I get like eight bucks or like 12 bucks or something for falling off of a barstool. But like, there's no video of that. You know what I mean? Nobody was like there with their phone. Like that was just like a thing that happened. We were all like drunk and high and

And like, it just happened. It's gone now. You know what I mean? You don't even know if I'm telling the truth. I might be like making this up. I'm not, you know, it's true. But like it, and that gave things like that a different feeling, you know, it's, and that, that to me, I'm, I, I like, I'm obsessed with like history and literature, poetry and all this kind of stuff. And like, you know, I'm obsessed with like, what was it actually like? What, what was it like to not know that?

what we know now. What was it like to not have a phone in your hand all the time? I know that. I don't know what it was like to...

not have like reasoned thought and to believe that like you know I believe the Sun was actually do people believe the Sun was actually like Helios or did they like think Helios represented that like well I don't know what that was was like exactly but you know that was that was kind of cool and and you know I think we could use a bit more of that now maybe not I don't know maybe I'm like just a dinosaur

The songs that ended up on Pocketful of Kryptonite, you, I think you said you, by the time you got in the studio, you had played them hundreds of times. Yeah. Live. Yeah, easily. And that's another sort of lost thing. That's not how people go into the studio now, usually. It's not how...

It's, you know, it's not how people, you record it basically live in the studio. None of these things are, that's not how, certainly not how popular music is made for the most part. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think like speaking practically the best way to record material is either like just right when you write it, you know, which is the new record, Face Full of Cake is like, that's all like first and second takes. Those are the first times we are like playing through those songs together. Yeah.

So there's like a certain kind of like freshness and discovery that you can actually hear on these recordings. So I think that's maybe why you characterized it the way you did at the beginning of the interview, that it sounds like a new band because the material is just like brand new.

Um, or, you know, to have stuff that's like super duper seasoned and you've just been like, you know, you can play it in your sleep and you can go into like a trance, like sort of autopilot when you're playing it. Autopilot doesn't sound quite like what I'm trying to convey, but like, you know, you can, it's in your DNA and you're, and you're playing it in this like very kind of, um, you know, subconscious instinctive kind of level. And one of the things about this band is,

is we do have this like tremendous kind of improvisational emphasis. So even when we're playing stuff, even like we're playing, you know, Two Princes, God knows how many times I've performed the song Two Princes, but it's not, you know, people always ask, like, do you get tired of playing it? And my first answer is like, do I get tired of playing a tune that, you know, I wrote and watching people go nuts? No. The answer to that is no. But also the way we play is

is almost like this little game of like kick the can, you know? So I'm like,

Very subtly, it's not like we're going to do Two Princes as a bossa nova, but I'm very subtly screwing around with the rhythm and the melody and massaging it in a certain direction. I look over at Eric and he looks over at me and he's like, I heard you. And then he'll do like a little something like that. So we're all, and you know, Aaron behind me, I can hear him hearing the two of us kind of goofing around. So there's just like subtle kind of interplay underneath all of the music that is really like what it's all about. Yeah.

you know, um, it's like a less radical version of what Bob Dylan does to his songs every night. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and, and like, I love Bob Dylan. I mean, I've seen him, I don't know, a dozen times or something like that, but you know, the best shows I've ever seen or like Bob Dylan shows and some pretty like

rough shows I've seen where like Bob Dylan, some nights he hits something that's like absolutely sublime and some nights. So I don't know. There's something to be said for, you know, pushing it a little bit. Um, but Bob, you know, he's Bob Dylan again. Who am I to question Lord Bob? Yeah. Weirdly his, uh, the last run of shows has been, as you probably know, it's been amazing. His voice is smoothed out. It's, he's like voice aged in reverse. No one knows how it happened, but he's really been doing some of his best shows recently. He's,

He's interesting that way because he'll kind of like, now he's playing piano, right? He'll just do something completely different and he just gets up there and he does it and it'll be like hit or miss for a while or maybe not even really working. And then he'll just like, all of a sudden, he'll just like groove it and it'll be like the best thing you've ever seen in your life. It's like Donatello meets Michelangelo. I mean, he's my hero, so...

And we're not talking about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles here, just to be clear, everyone. I did mention two. Ninja Turtles. That's right. I remember when that was just a comic book, too. Yep, me too. This song, Heart of the Highway, I think it's like the current single. My way is the highway. Got a heart like a wheel going up.

That's an interesting, vibey, different kind of track. Might not be in 4-4. It's in 4-4, but it's an odd number of measures. Okay. So it's groups of, it's three bars of 4-4. So it ends up sounding like 6-8. I don't know how many of your listeners can relate to that.

can follow this conversation, but it ends up sounding like a waltz time. You know, Aaron composes, basically like the way the writing works in this band is like I write all the lyrics. And then on this record, I think I wrote, you know, music and lyrics to like five of the songs. Like Rock and Roll Heaven, I wrote the music and lyrics. Boombox, I wrote music and lyrics and like three other songs. And then Aaron and Eric composed the music to...

you know, the rest of it. And then Eric usually has a song of his own that I help him co-write. So Aaron, you know, is just an extraordinary composer. And he comes up with, he wrote like on the first record, he wrote the music to 40 or 50, which is one of my favorite songs. Yeah.

A lot of his stuff is kind of odd-timed signatures and rhythmically advanced, I'll say. And, you know, I just have to, like, when we were writing it, he's doing an eyebrow thing, and I'm just sort of like, okay, when's the next phrase? And like, okay, there's the downbeat, cool. And I'm just doing eighth notes until I feel the phrase end, and then, okay, wait for the next phrase. I learn a lot about music working with Aaron, especially

especially when we're writing a song together because, you know, and I had that lyric, I wrote that lyric, you know, a couple years ago. At this point, you know, this band is like a dream, you know, because I can bring in a song like Boombox, which is by the time this comes out, that will be the single. My baby brings, I bring my best cassette player.

She liked the way my tape would roll.

he's such a brilliant guitar player that it's like handing off you know like your little funky thing to like Jimmy Page and then Jimmy all of a sudden like this monster guitar player is like playing your thing so Eric is great that way too because he me and Aaron will come up with these things on guitar that you know we can't play it like Eric and Eric is like I would never have thought of this and then he'll put his like magic touch on it and it's

And it's just sounds incredible and you can't believe it. So yeah, Aaron and I, Aaron and I worked on that song together and the, the, Oh, and then, you know, the other aspect of all this is that I like, I can sit around and write songs and also just like sit and write lyrics. You know, if I just have like a, a, a lyric idea, I don't have to like worry about coming up with music for it. Cause I know between the two of those guys, they'll have something like some bestial fantastic like thing.

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Sort of just like now, there were a lot of kids who were big classic rock fans. One of the things was classic rock was not as distant as it was now. In 1991, Who's Next was 20 years old, you know, stuff like that. It was all pretty recent. Roger Daltrey was just turning 50, and he played with you, which I was going to ask about. Yeah.

One of the things about your stuff and like the Black Crows is it did appeal to kids who love classic rock already, you know, cause it, it fit. And now we can hear some of the stuff like sliding right into those playlists because it fit really well. And one of the things that I was heard as Steve Miller influence, and then I recently saw that that was an influence that Steve Miller was a, the Steve Miller band was a, was a direct influence on the band. Absolutely. Yeah. There's, there's like, we all loved Steve Miller and, and, and yeah, that was all that classic rock stuff.

You know, particularly the Stones, Beatles, Who, Jimi Hendrix. That was our canon, you know? And we're all like, to some extent, classically trained as well. You know, like John Popper and I were in like the choir. So I was seeing like Brahms and Bach and Persichetti. But yeah, I mean, I think it's really interesting like, because rock and roll is,

You didn't think about this back then, but it's kind of formal. There's a formality to the form of it. It's got this like pentatonic melodic bass. You know, the basic scale is like pentatonic and major stuff. Those song forms are basically like, you know, you're working off of this kind of 12 bar blues form. Like I basically like as a young songwriter when I was 14, 15 years old,

I basically realized, oh, this is like Lego, you know? I can take a 12-bar blues and I can switch the chords around, you know? Or I can add another four bars and now I've got like a, you know, 16-bar blues. I can put a chunk here, put a chunk there. When we came out, people were like, with Little Miss Capybara, they were like, well, this is kind of like Steve Miller. This is derivative, you know? But like, yeah, it's derivative. It's rock and roll. It's like...

You know what I mean? Right. It's rock and roll. If you really come down to it, Brahms is derivative of Bach. And I'm not saying we're doing art on that kind of a level necessarily. I mean, maybe we are. I don't know. Maybe I... Who knows? 800 years from now, they'll be like, Brahms who? Spin doctors. I doubt that. But I do think the idea of originality actually comes from

attaining the level of virtuosity to where you can truly express yourself in whatever medium you're doing, whether it's, you know, music or something, painting. If you get good enough to just actually like switch the brush and let brushstroke, it's just says Brian, you know, it's Chris. And people are like, I would know that brushstroke anywhere. Then you're going to be original, right? Because the only thing that's original, there's no motif there.

that's original, there's no form that's original, you know? You're already like doing it, it's an electric guitar and it's drums and it's bass and it's like a guy standing there singing. There's nothing original about that. But when you get a guy like Aaron Comis and you just hear like one, you hear like Two Princes, that opening thing, Two Princes, you're like, that's Aaron Comis. Like I'd know that anywhere. ♪

That's original. So your only hope of ever having any kind of originality is to get good enough to express yourself authentically. Express yourself authentically. There's nobody like you, no matter who you are. Even if you're some kind of a nerd, there's something going on.

in your head. Well, nerds are actually great, but even if you're some straight-laced banker guy, there's something going on in your head that's not happening in someone else's head. So yeah, as I mentioned, for Roger Daltrey's 50th birthday, he did a pay-per-view event, I guess, and you played with him at that, and beforehand, you guys went on David Letterman and played Substitute with Roger Daltrey. That's on YouTube. It's a killer performance. Thank you. I see something special

But I'm a substitute for another guy. Roger was just so cool. And that was like a brain exploding kind of moment for me because I was like, I'm still in my early 20s. I just like couldn't believe that Roger wanted us. But, you know, it made sense because we were like, we were the same kind of band, same template. You know, our band is basically like a Who, Led Zeppelin, you know, trio with a lead singer.

kind of layout, you know, so we were cut in the same kind of, you know, we're the same kind of band. So it made sense, but it was cool that we were good enough to where he wanted us to do that. And there was this great moment where, um, um, you know, I talked to Sean Giblin, our monitor engineer, who was in charge of like my stage setup. And I have like, I have, um, a mic stands like a custom mic stands, like a, an aluminum, um,

like milled aluminum shaft that's bolted to a steering wheel. It's like a performance steering wheel. It's got like bike tape around it. And I, you know, I would just say to Sean, like, Oh, I'm sorry, Sean, I'm such a pain in the ass. You know, I got all this stuff going on. And Sean would be like, man,

Man, don't worry about it. And he would say, Roger Daltrey, the way they have to tape up his mic. And he would show me, like, they do this thing where they run the cable up the microphone, and then they would tape the cable to the microphone because Roger Daltrey, like, swings the microphone. And he told me that, like, I don't know, a hundred times, you know? Like, anytime I said something about me being a pain in the ass, he'd talk about Roger Daltrey and his microphone. And so we walk into rehearse, and there's my, like, custom mic stand with my mic on it. And then there's another mic stand, and...

And there's a mic on it and it's taped up like this.

It's Roger Daltrey's mic, taped up the way they taped his mic up. Even though we're just at SIR to rehearse, but they taped his mic up the way I normally... And I just saw that childhood wonder feeling that you get when you get to visit the fire station and they let you go on the hook and ladder truck. And then we played Carnegie Hall with him, which alone was amazing. Yeah.

And, um, we were like going out for the encore and Pete Townsend was there and it was Pete Townsend. I wore like a jumpsuit and like, you know, these, these boots and a big scarf, like just total homage to him. And we're about to walk out and backstage, they're just like, all right, when you get on stage, look at your microphone and the ones that say guest, that's okay. Okay.

But if it doesn't say guest, find a microphone that says guest and get on that microphone. Cause that's like Pete Townsend's mic or, or Roger's mic. So I'm like, get out there. And I'm standing there with like Sinead O'Connor and like, man, the woman from four non-blondes. I forgot her name. Linda Perry. Yeah. Yeah. Linda Perry. Sorry, Linda. And I'm like standing there with the two of them and like, like cool. It says guest. I'm cool. You know? And they start playing, joined together with the band. It was like, this is the greatest.

my life. I'm standing there in the spotlight and I just like look over and out comes like Pete Townsend's guitar and I'm just like, what is happening here? And then he looks at me and he smiles and he nods and I smile and I nod back, you know, like and then he does this thing with his head like, you

you know, this, this like, like flicks his head backward, like come over here. And I do the thing. Like I look over both shoulders and point at myself like me. And he does the nods. Great big nod. Yeah. And, and like, and then he does the thing, flicks his head again, like come here. And I'm just like,

And I go over and then I'm just sharing a microphone with like freaking Pete Townsend. And I mean, I still have goosebumps like thinking about it. I'm sure you get a lot of people in here. I know like it's not cool to get like, I don't know. Like I know a lot of people who aren't starstruck at all, you know, but I am. I like, I just think that's, I think that's like what it's all about. So the thing that you got to hope for, you know, is, um, you know, rock and roll,

art whatever it's like a big tree you know and like you and me brian you're like senior writer at at rolling stone me i'm like the lead singer of this random band the spin doctors but i got my little got my little corner of rock and roll history and you just want to be like a a little leaf or a twig on that tree and you're like that thing of feeling like you belong on that tree that you're part of that tree and that like you're on the same tree as like bob dylan mick

Mick Jagger. Like, sure, their branches are bigger or whatever, but it doesn't really matter, you know? Because you're just like, you're on that tree, man. And that's just a matter of fact. I grew up in a really tough situation. And my dad, Little Miss Can't Be Wrong, is actually about my stepmom. Right. And a lot of people don't know that. Right.

She was like a malignant narcissist. I don't know if anybody knows what that is. That's a term that's going around a lot. I had a malignant narcissist in my life before it was cool. And that's a joke. And like, you know, I grew up in a really difficult kind of situation. And when I was, you know, I guess 30 or so, I was at a wedding of one of my cousins and somebody had a family tree. And so...

I like look on the family tree and it was like, find like, you know, my grandmother, my grandfather, my dad. And like, there I am, you know, and then there's my daughter. And I was like, so messed up in my head, you know, that I was flattered. I was like, Oh, you put me on too. And they were like, dude, it's a matter of fact that you're like, but that's, you know, like,

It's nice to still be around. I'm like glad that like, you know, to be given an interview like that. We got a new record coming out and it's nice to like, you know, you do this long enough. You kind of feel a little bit of traction when you have it. And it's kind of cool. Like I think it's the 90s are kind of having a bit of a moment and people are realizing how great that music was.

So as the guy who wrote Jimmy Olsen's Blues, which of course provided the title of Pocketful of Kryptonite, are you still enough of a Superman fan that you're excited for the movie? Absolutely. I love all that stuff. And one thing I would love to point out to your listeners is that the Spin Doctors, I think, as far as I know, we're the only band that's in the DC Universe and the Marvel Universe.

Because in the first Deadpool movie, Deadpool is like, mentions the spin doctors. He's like, cancer is a jack off, smirn off, opening for the spin doctors at the Iowa State Fair shit show. And I was just like, what? That was the best, man. Like, because, you know, I thought that was so funny and so freaking awesome. And I'm so happy to be like,

I love those movies. And then, of course, like, for a while in the 90s, man, I forget the artist, but there was one of the DC artists was, like, from time to time, would put Jimmy Olsen in a Spin Doctors t-shirt. So we were, like, legit in, like, both universes. So, I mean, I just, like I said, it's just, yeah, it's cool, man. How did you get the idea that Jimmy Olsen would be scheming after Lois? Where did that come from? I...

I was 19 years old. It was like maybe six months before I wrote Two Princes. I wrote Two Princes when I was 19. I wrote Jimmy Olsen when I was 19. That's really crazy. Yeah, yeah. I guess I was showing early signs of ability. I got a pocket footer. And I got a pocket footer.

I was doing like a winter work term. I was at Bennington College for one year, my freshman year. And then, little miss can't be wrong, my stepmom spent all of my college money on like, you know, a Ferrari Dino and some fur coats and stuff like that. And I was like, out of there. So while I was at Bennington, my friends were going to Brown University. So I was like spending my work term in Providence and I had no money.

And I came up with this ruse whereby I could eat where I stole an apron and I put the apron on and I would walk through the kitchen of the cafeterias if I worked there. And I'd get out of the kitchen into the dining area, take the apron off and put it into a backpack and just like eat. And I'm essentially a pretty honest person. I wasn't happy about

that I was doing this and I was not particularly proud. I'm sitting there eating my ill-gotten pancakes and a young woman, presumably a Brown student came in and was like, um, just eating. And I looked over at her and I was like, she looks like Lois Lane. I was like, my songwriter mind was like, well, in this scenario, I'm certainly not Superman. Like who would I be? And I was like, I'm Jimmy Olsen in this picture.

I love that. Well, since you mentioned Two Princes, obviously you've talked about it before, but what was the very first germ of that song? I was working at a little restaurant in Princeton.

called the American Diner that subsequently burnt down. And I got a phone call at work from young woman who I'd had a crush on. Now this is, again, I'm like 19 years old, so I'm fresh out of high school. And there was a young woman that I'd had a crush on like through middle school. She calls me at work

asked to meet later on. It was right at the end of my shift, walk out and kind of walk down the street, kind of bemused, like, what does this all mean? And I run into Mike Wilder, who is the big brother of a guy I grew up with, Dave Wilder, who worked with Macy Gray a lot. And he's actually an amazing session bass player, wrote a lot of Macy Gray's material with her. Dave

Dave Wilder's big brother, Mike, it was like two, three years older than us. And he was like the coolest guy. We just thought Mike, it was the coolest. We wore what Mike at war. We would like say things that he said. And, um, and he was always really cool to us younger guys. So he's coming down the street and he was like, Chris, man, how you doing? And I was like, good. So what's going on? I was like, Oh, I just got a phone call at work. He was like, Oh, well, you know, just go ahead with that. And I was like, it was from this chick. I like,

He's like, oh, just go ahead now. And I was like, I think she might be mad at me. And he was like, oh, well, just go ahead now. I was like, well, maybe she likes me. Go ahead with that. And like, he just kept saying, like, go ahead now. Go ahead with it. Go ahead now. And I just went home and I was like, go ahead now. And that was it, man. And now I'll never have to work a normal job again. If you want to come at me, baby, just go ahead now. And if you have just got it.

So, you know, I was seeing pictures of you in that era, and it's like, you really were, you were, not to put too fine a point on it, but you were high a lot of the time. Oh, it was baked out of my mind. High 24-7, man. I was high from the age of like 14 to like 30. I stopped when my daughter was born. I wasn't like together with her mom. And I had this epiphany of like,

If I'm getting high all the time, like this is an avenue for my kid to be taken away from me. So I just stopped smoking when my daughter was born. But yeah, I was, I was, I was high all the time.

The, uh, yeah, I mean, I literally could tell from the pictures I was, which I, which I might not have picked up, but, uh, which in 91, I might not have picked it up, but now it says, yeah, the, uh, did, I mean, you know, do you think it, it helped your creativity sometimes? Cause people, sometimes it does. You know, I, like I said, like I had a hard time growing up. I think nowadays, uh,

I would have been medicated. You know, I think I would have been on like antidepressants. I mean, now I am on antidepressants, you know, I was until like a couple of years ago. But like, you know, yeah, I think I would have been medicated. That is me taking care of my head, you know, and trying to like quiet down the voices in my head. You know, I'm 57 years old now and I'm like a lot of therapy, you know,

and a lot of like mind training and meditation and just like really, really kind of trying to work through the post-traumatic stress of like what I went through as a young person. And, you know, like before anybody like thinks anything, like my mom and dad are great people and they were sort of a product of their era. And it was my mom and dad who were like abusive, you

you know, it was this other woman in my life and what the hell were my mom and dad doing? They were like, just trying to survive the situation as much as I was, you know? Um, but it takes a long time to not be like soul devouringly angry at everybody about that kind of stuff. And, um, so yeah, I've just like, I put a lot of work into, uh, I wanted to be, um, you know, a calmer, more settled person for my daughter, um,

And so, you know, I had to grow a lot in order to be the dad that I, that I wanted to be, you know? And, um, yeah. So I stopped when I was like 30 and, um,

And I started drinking. You said that the terrifying vocal paralysis that you experienced in the late 90s might have been psychosomatic. Do you have further insight on that as the years pass? I'm very much a believer in, you know, there's not any less hackneyed term that comes to mind, but like the mind-body connection. You know, there's a lot of science about what your body does when...

when it's stressed, prolonged periods of anger, frustration, suppressed emotion. Like your body, you know, knows what's going on. You know, even if you're like doing a big like tap dance in your head to like try and dance around. And I was just going through both times, you know. I lost my voice. I was extremely, extremely stressed. And I think it was my body's way of being like, listen, man, you're not going to open your mouth and like advocate for yourself.

and create boundaries, then you're not going to say anything. You're not going to sing. You're not going to talk. You're not going to do anything. I'm not going to let you actually like vocalize again until you're ready to like say, you know, what you need to say. And I, you know, I'm like the kind of guy like, um, I grew up in the penumbra of a huge malignant personality and wasn't permissible in my house for anyone else to have like emotions or feelings or to like, so I'm,

I was allowed to kind of go off on the sly and like write songs and, and like play music and I could sing stuff, you know, but I couldn't like really like be like, Hey, this is hurting me. Or, Hey, I need some attention or, Hey, somebody take me to the fucking dentist. You know, like there just wasn't any room in my house. It was like zero to nuclear war. So I never learned, like, I never learned how to be like,

just these simple kinds of conversations that normal people just have. I never learned the thing of like, I told my daughter this over and over again, you know, like people can be mad at each other, but they still love each other. Like in my house, it was just like,

You went with the program or you were like out of the house, you know, there was no like kind of middle ground. So yeah, for sure. I think, you know, I think that was my body's way of like telling me, I don't know if it's, that's true for everybody. My body is like that. My body will just like be like, okay, buddy, it's, it's over, you know? So I, you know, I had to work a lot on that. I don't think I've completely perfected it because it takes a lot of courage to speak up for yourself.

Even in your Rolling Stone cover story, which I reread, it's by Jeff Giles. Shout out to Jeff. He's a big editor at Vanity Fair these days. Yeah, yeah. Still in the biz. I hope he's doing good. Give him a big, like, hi and a big hug, man. I very much will. I'll send him a Facebook message. Just shout out to Rolling Stone for putting us on the cover, too. I mean, that's like, anytime somebody's like, you know, like, it's impossible to, like, belittle me at this point because I'm like, bitch, I was on the cover of Rolling Stone. Yeah.

It's a great cover, and it was at the very peak of that album. But you were exhausted in the story. You did this story at Disney World. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what really I took away rereading it. It's like, oh, man, you were burned out. And you said, and you were talking about, like, I don't want to...

I don't want to tour like this going forward. You said, I don't want to be 50 years old and be out on the road with my voice all shot. Got your voice. That's good. I want to have kids. Check. I want to grow vegetables. I want to be a potter. We're not going to tour like this forever. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I don't like touring like that. You know, that's really hard. What I didn't know then was that I wouldn't have to tour like that forever. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like at that point in time, you know, when you're just,

white hot like that. It's the beginning of your career and you're 20 nothing years old. You don't know like how short six months is. You don't know how quick two years can go by. You don't know how to work smart either. Now I know like this week is like crazy. You know what I mean?

But now where I'm at now, I'm like, sorry, no, you know, like, I know you need this thing for me. I'll talk to you next week. You know, you know, you, yes, this boom this morning, like got to go do the new show, early morning news show.

and an interview afterwards, got to be up at like 6.30 and ready to sing. Cool, I got it. Go to bed early. I don't drink anymore. I don't smoke pot, so I'm not putting that kind of strength. You just get to this point. So at that point in time, that was said by a

Yeah. And I was still smoking weed then too. So I had the emotional maturity of like a 14 year old basically. You know what I mean? Because they say that your maturity, like you stop maturing when you start doing drugs, right? And I don't want to like lump up

um weed in with other harder drugs like we want to make it clear that i don't see weed is the same as like cocaine and but in my case you know the the level of usage that i had going on at that point in time you know that was said by by a guy who was mentally 14 years old who couldn't like really see you know where and nobody and there was nobody there like to be like to be like you know dude i'm

Just, like, put your head down and in, you know, two years, you know, you'll have all the money in the world. You'll be sitting on a beach somewhere just drinking a pina colada taking six months off, you know. That was a kid who's... You know, that was...

funny that that moment when they're doing the article I'm sorry I just like thinking of another Mark Mark Seliger was taking the editorial like photographs of us and

And, um, Mark is just like, he's so fun and he's so playful and stuff like that. And like, if you look at, if you find an issue, well, you, you did clearly, you find like a copy of it. There's like stuff of me in the bath and like, they were taking all these pictures and I'm like sitting in a towel. We were like, let's do like some really candid shit.

in the hotel room. So I end up, like, I have, like, a towel on, and, like, they're like, let's get some room service, and they bring room service in, and there's, like, just lights everywhere and cameras everywhere, and I'm sitting there, like, in a towel, and the room service guy comes in and is just like, okay, so I guess they're shooting some porn in here or something. Like...

Yeah, you know, one aspect of that, I haven't read that article in a long time. I think the picture that we paint there is one that is accurate and very, very grueling, you know? But it was also like, it was a tremendous amount of fun too. I hope I don't come across as like,

you know, just like whining. I mean, by the standards of nineties musicians in, in interviews, I think you're very low on that. Cause you know, that was the thing then. So, you know, I remember reading like, I remember reading like a, um, uh, like a radio head article. And it was like, it was like, wow, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to these guys.

You were dealing with this weird thing before him, which was that your own record label was somewhat unenthused about you guys. Yeah. And you were... And they also... I think you had the misfortune of...

It's actually similar to what Bruce Springsteen was experiencing in like 74 when Billy Joel was the priority of Columbia. And it's tough when another act that's kind of like you is the focus of the label and you're just trying to kick and scream to continue on. And you guys were on the same label as Pearl Jam. Yeah, yeah. Pearl Jam. Yeah.

And even her. But yeah, so that was, you must have had a little bit, joking or not, a little bit of like a fucking Pearl Jam. That's all I care about. Totally. Totally. I still can't listen to Pearl Jam. Still can't listen to that. Is that true? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, no offense to anybody who likes Pearl Jam, but I just like, I don't know. I just, I can't do it. Um, it's probably, you know,

a little psychological, you know, holdover from that. Yeah, we would get to a town and it would be like, you know, you go through like, back then they had these little newspapers, you know, like a little local, we call it like the local rag, you know, and you open it up and it would be like,

Full page ad, Pearl Jam's gig, you know, another full page out of Pearl Jam's record. And it'd be like, couldn't find the spin doctors anywhere. You know, you're going to the record store. It'd be a big like Pearl Jam display. And it'd be like one copy of our record in the record store. It was like, yeah, it was maddening. Um, we used to be like, that's cause all of our, the copies of our records sold already, you know, but like, um, what I recently found out is, um, a woman named Laura Curtin, who's like a legend in radio promotion, um,

eventually like got into a tequila shot contest with one of the upper executives was like if I can drink you under the table you have to push the spin doctors and she drank 17 shots of tequila and just like put another executive whose name who shall remain nameless under the table and that was like then we got the big push and

I mean, among other things, there was another guy named Jim McGuinn who was at a radio station named EQX that was like Albany, Vermont. And he wrote a very impassioned letter on our behalf that made a really big impression on the record label. And, you know, the big Sony wheels started moving. And, you know, like three months later, we're on SNL.

Rolling Stone cover, platinum, you know, like gold, boom, platinum, boom, double platinum. Now we've sold like 10 million records or something. Are you and John Popper still as close as you were? Yeah, well, we're going to be out. I'm really glad you brought that up because we're going to be out touring with Blues Traveler and Jim Blossoms.

this summer package tour. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I can't imagine why you guys would all go on tour together. I don't think there's any crossover of the family. Absolutely. Yeah, no, it's going to be really fun. I'm really looking forward to that. No, John, John and I are both kind of flakes, you know? So we're the kind of friends who we might not talk for like a year. And then like we get in a room together and it's like,

No time has gone by at all. And now John is just one of the most remarkable human beings that it's possible to know. He's just like Moby Dick meets like a five leaf clover. You know, there's nobody like him. It was it was cool going to high school with a guy like that because, you know, you're looking at this guy who's in high school with you.

And it's clear he's going to be a huge star. Really? Oh, yeah. He was a phenomenal talent. They'd have an assembly, you know, and like the band would come out to play. And Mr. Van Arsdale, like the vice principal, would come out and be like, OK, John Popper is going to play. Everybody has to stay in their seats or we'll stop the assembly and everybody will have to go to detention. Because kids would like...

climb the walls. Like, literally climb the walls when he would play. Everybody would go bananas. It was like this guy that we went to school with come out and he'd play like Jimi Hendrix on the harmonica right in our auditorium. And people would just go insane. Like, he ran for...

vice president of the junior class or something like that. And like, it was in the new gym and it's like, you know, those, you know, those bleachers that, that are like push up against the wall. They're like wooden things. Then you pull them out and they kind of accordion out. Yeah. Like everybody's sitting on those. I hadn't thought of that. I know. I know. I know. Right. Yeah. So I'm like a misanthrope. So I'm not on the bleachers. I'm next to the bleachers and I've got my, like my black t-shirt on and my black Chuck

And I'm just standing there being a misanthrope and like, you know, like darkly watching these speeches. And I know John's coming out. John finally comes out to give his speech. And there's like a big chunky high school podium, you know, that he's at. And there's like a gooseneck like mic stand with an SM57 sitting in it. And John gets up and he looks out at the crowd.

And he just stands there for a second, like, doing nothing. It's like, what's he gonna do? And he pulls the 57 out of the mic stand, whips a harmonica out of this bandolier that he used to wear, puts the harmonica to his lips with the microphone, and Brian, like, this, like, kaleidoscoping, bluesy, reeling funk just came out of his, like, body, and

and he was just like rocking next thing you knew black kids white kids purple kids they burst out of their seats and they're just like dancing on these bleachers substitute teachers just everybody's dancing the bleachers are underlaying i'm standing next to him i'm telling you like i'm looking at them the bleachers are like underlaying you're like is everybody gonna be okay and it was this wild

rumpus, you know, for about 15 seconds, you know, where like school wasn't school anymore. Like he just took everyone to another wild, raucous universe and like freed us all from the

you know, and malaise of like late 20th century high school preppy bullshit. And then Mr. Van Arstel came out, like took the microphone away from him, gave him detention and wouldn't let him run. Like, you know, wouldn't let him run for vice president anymore. The harmonica riot of 1988 or whatever. Fucking wild. I mean, I mean, did having him there is like, obviously such a blazing talent early on. Did that,

Increase your own ability to imagine yourself doing something like that or did it make it harder to imagine it? It didn't increase it. It created it. Wow. It created it. No kidding. It was like there was no... There's no like...

you know, you couldn't think on that kind of a scale, you know? I mean, I didn't, I mean, I was a pretty grandiose kid. Like people would be like, I got really bad grades and I'm in Princeton, New Jersey, very upwardly mobile. All my friends are, my, my, my whole like milieu is they're going to Princeton. They're going to Swarthmore. They're going to, um, you know, all the Ivy league schools, like two of my best friends ended up at Brown. And, and so people,

people, not my friends, but like people were like, Chris, what are you going to do with your life? And as a result of John Popper, you know, and that kind of like a vision that he, you know, that window that he opened, I was like, uh, I'm going to be a rock star. And I didn't necessarily really think I was going to be a rock star. You know, I thought I'd probably end up being in the Navy or a welder or something. I had nothing wrong with those things, but like, you know, people would be like,

You know your chances are like one in a million of doing that. And I was like, no, your chances are one in a million. Mine are like 125,000 to one. And I'll take those odds. I didn't realize that he was that fully formed at that point. He was like Athena. He burst from Zeus's forehead fully armed.

And then you burst out of his forehead. And I burst out of his forehead. Like half-baked. Well, that was really fun. Thank you for joining me. The new Spin Doctors album, Face Full of Cake, is out now. I very much enjoyed it. I recommend you check it out as well. Not you, Chris, the listener. But you should check it out too. Thanks again for joining me. Thanks, Brian. Appreciate it.

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Bravo TV star Lala Kent holds nothing back. There's been so many times where I'm like, I apologize that I said that, but that wasn't meant for you to hear. Phil, you're there. How fun would it be to bring in some Bravo leberties and make our own bracket? Iconic. All right, I'll take Dorinda, you take Sonia. Sonia is who I wish I could be. You and me both. I cannot be someone in the program. What's PTO? Pay time off. See, you've never had a real job.

Give them Lala. It is nothing but honesty. You guys know. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. Panoply.