FIRE at 50 by Creating “FI Paychecks” That Fund My Early Retirement! | Life After FIRE
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Hello, hello, hello, my dear listeners. As you may or may not know, my husband Carl and I have a new YouTube series on the BiggerPocketsMoney YouTube channel called Life After Fire. And as a very special bonus, we are going to be airing episodes here on the podcast on Wednesdays. So without further ado, let's get into it. Today, I'm speaking with Mark Troutman from Mark's Money Mind. Mark has been retired for 10 years and has seen spending concept

We'll be right back.

After Reaching Financial Independence. Mark, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited to talk to you. Yeah, it's great to be here. Just down the street almost. Almost just down the street. Mark recently moved really, really close to me and I'm so excited to have him in town. Mark, let's talk about your journey up to financial independence. Really quick overview. How did you reach financial independence? What was your job? How did you invest? Give me all the details.

So I worked in the financial industry my whole career. I graduated in 1987, went to work in that year in a brokerage firm, which you can imagine was a very interesting year, right? I was in high school. I was actually sitting on a margin desk in a management training program. And, you know, there was quotes coming in, but people didn't have –

that on their phones or anything. So we were calling clients and saying, Hey, by the way, you need to put up more money or we're selling you out. And they're like, why, what's going on? Like, well, the market's down, you know, whatever, 30%. And so my job was basically, you need to call these people and say, you know, they need to put up money in the next, like, you know, half an hour or we're selling them out. So that was my first experience with kind of wall street, um,

as a recent college graduate. Wow, trial by fire. Yeah. Well, and then I didn't really have any skin in the game, so it didn't really bother me too much. But in hindsight now, I realize how significant of a day that was. At the time, you're just like, well, I guess this is what the job is. And then eventually, yeah, and eventually I got into money management and my, you know,

almost all of my career was managing a mutual fund. So that's what I did. And, and it was an equity mutual fund and I invested in equities, you know, my entire career. And that's kind of how I got there. I didn't have an extreme savings rate. Like some people in the fire community do. It was more like, I look at it from a standpoint of gross income. You know, what is my savings as a percentage of my gross income while I was living in,

New York and New Jersey, so my taxes were very high. So I was basically paying between federal and state tax. About a third of my income was going to tax. About a third was going to savings and about a third was going to spending. Okay, well, I would like to note that 33% savings rate is still a pretty good savings rate. It's not 75% like some people, but that's okay because this was also when? The early 1980s? Well, late 80s and into the 90s, yeah. 2000s, all that, yeah.

Yeah. So 33% is still really, really good. I mean, you retired. What age were you when you retired? I actually ended up leaving at age 50. I kind of backed into what I could have retired at. It was kind of somewhere in my early 40s, but I didn't know about the fire community. I didn't know about any of this stuff. I just, even at 50, I was like, well, I'm early, you know, and I didn't find the fire community until after I stopped working. Wait, wait, wait. You didn't find fire until after you stopped working? How did you know that you could retire early, Mark? Well, I did the math. Yeah.

What year was this? 2015 is when I actually stopped working. Oh, okay. So this is after the 4% rule. Had you heard of the 4% rule? Yeah, I mean, I was aware of that. And that's kind of what I was using as my justification that I had enough. And I also, I ended up...

sitting for my CFP after I retired, just because I thought maybe I needed to keep some options open. Maybe I do need to work down the road. I wasn't sure. And as I was going through that, you do, you know, financial plans as part of that curriculum. So of course you do your own financial plan.

And I realized, oh yeah, I'm good. I don't actually need to work anymore. Since you retired in 2015, have you generated any income by trading your time for money? No. Okay. I love that answer. But although I will say that if you do decide to trade your time for money, that's okay too. I'm just setting the bar. Okay. So you retired based on the 4% rule. You understand that this is your...

that this works. Do you draw down from your investments? I do draw down now, but I didn't kind of initially, or at least I was very concerned about doing it initially. I did have a period of Wi-Fi, so my wife was working for a few years after I stopped working. She did not make very much money. She was basically an administrator at a police department, and she was actually deferring all of her income into her 457, so we weren't really...

living off of her income. But what we were doing is, well, I kind of had income avoidance for a couple of years, I guess you would say, because I was kind of afraid to draw down. I mean, the mask said, yes, you can do this. There's no problem. You can start living on your portfolio. But when that income stops it, I think people don't realize how much it'll kind of freak you out. You know, you don't have this paycheck coming in anymore. And,

And so I was trying to kind of like, how do I avoid actually having to take money out of my portfolio? So I kind of looked around and we had this classic car and I was like, well, I'm not really using that anymore. If I sold that, I wouldn't have to draw down for a year. So I sold that.

And then in the second year, I did work for a very small private company and I owned a very tiny sliver of the stock, but it was a private company. So I never really knew if it would pay out or what it would be. And so I never counted it in my kind of five portfolio figure.

But they did end up cashing me out in my second year of retirement. And so that enabled me not to have to spend in the second year. And it was about a little less than what I would spend in a year. So it wasn't some huge windfall or anything. It was basically a year's worth of income.

Okay. Well, a year's worth of income is still more than you had and more than you were counting on. So I'm sorry, did you say how much that classic car sold for in terms of your annual spending? Yeah, I'll tell you what it was. It was a Porsche 911 964 model, in case anyone out there is wondering. 1993, and it's called an RS America, so it's a lightweight car. We used to race cars or drive cars on a racetrack.

And when we moved to Colorado and that was in 2008, we had sold all of our race cars. We owned a factory race car and stuff like that. And we had sold all that stuff. And then when we got to Colorado during the kind of market correction of 2008 and nine, my old mechanic called me up and, or somebody from that club called me and said, Hey, there's this car available. Do you want it? And so I bought it for like $30,000, drove it on the racetrack for a couple of years. And then it became kind of a collector car, uh,

And I was driving it on the racetrack one day and somebody said, I can't believe you're driving that car on the track. And I was like, well, why? I paid $30,000. It's no big deal. That's kind of what, you know, it's a low cost track car. And he's like, you need to look that thing up. And I was like, okay. You know, so I looked it up and they were selling for about $100,000 at the time.

And now mine, because it had been on the track and had a cage in it and stuff, I ended up selling it for $85,000. Okay, so that's a nice amount of money. I wish I had a car that I could sell for $85,000. MR2s don't quite go for that. Yeah.

So you didn't take out from your portfolio for the first two or the first three years? Two years. Okay. What happened in year three that made you feel comfortable with taking money out of your portfolio? So even though I had run my own numbers and I was familiar with the 4% rule and I

And around that time is when I started reading Big Earn's material, you know, early retirement now. And he talks about, you know, other safe withdrawal rates or other ways to come about the safe withdrawal rate figure. And I read all of his stuff, which if anyone's familiar, that's, you know, kind of mind boggling in itself because it is very definitely get deep in the weeds and that stuff.

And came to the conclusion that, well, he's done a lot of research. I agree with the way he approached everything. 3.25% and I should be fine. Plus, I hadn't withdrawn anything in the first two years. So I was already kind of two years ahead of the game because I hadn't drawn down. And I was like, okay, well, if I just say, okay, then 3.25% is my number, not 4 or 3.25%.

And then I'd also read an article that Morningstar had put out saying that another way to kind of improve your sequence of return risk is just not to take a inflation raise in a year after your portfolio has declined, for example. And it made a really big difference because it gets compounded. Because if you don't take that one inflation raise,

raise in that year, then the following year, you're taking an inflation raise on the previous amount. But that one year has always, you know, you're kind of behind a year as a result of that. So I was like, okay, so I have this, you know, kind of investment policy statement or withdrawal statement and says no more than 3.25%. And if the market or your portfolio goes down in total value in a year, the following year, do not take a raise.

And then I felt comfortable enough with that approach that I was like, okay, you can start drawing down. But I didn't. So I create a paycheck for myself, but I didn't give myself the paycheck to the full 3.25%. Actually, it was more like, I want to say it was like two and a half percent just because I didn't feel like I needed it.

All of it. But so then that was an extra buffer, right? So you can see the progression here, buffer after buffer after buffer, contingency after contingency. Dear listeners, we are so excited to announce that we now have a BiggerPockets money newsletter. If you want to subscribe to the newsletter, please go to biggerpockets.com slash money newsletter and subscribe. All right. We'll be right back after this.

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Welcome back to the show. Okay, so in the 10 years that you have been retired, have you ever taken the full 3.25% out or even gone up to 4%? No. Wow. And do you feel restricted in any way? No, because I think, like I said, I retired at 50. I could have retired at 42, 43. So I had it at

more than I needed, I guess you would say. So the portfolio is sizable enough that even at a lower withdrawal rate, I live a very, very comfortable life. So you now draw down from your investments. What does that process look like? Do you sell every January 2nd? Do you sell quarterly? Actually, I have about a 10-year runway of cash.

But it's still only an 80-20 portfolio. But again, because it's overfunded and I live at a comfortable level, but it's not some crazy extreme amount. Maybe by some people's terms it would be, but not by my terms. Or certainly the New York City type terms. But...

I pay myself a paycheck out of the cash amount that's in the portfolio and actually looking at the portfolio now, because again, I've not only did I not have a bad sequence, I had a really good sequence over the last 10 years. Right. So, I mean, that's helped a lot. And, uh,

The income that the portfolio generates between dividends and interest actually exceeds what I spend in a year. So effectively, I don't ever need to sell anything. Well, you need to start spending more, apparently. Oh, and I'm working on that. We can talk about that. By the way, I'm flying first class to economy and back. You can join me on United. I changed to United from Southwest. I can join you because you're going to pay for my ticket? No.

then I'm going to stick with my ticket on Southwest. It was an inexpensive flight. It wasn't that bad. Yeah. Well, I hope you enjoy your very luxurious first class trip. Let's talk about this cash buffer thing.

As you draw down from it, it's just in cash? It's in treasure bills. Okay. As you pull out of that, do you replenish it? I don't need to because the dividends and interest, so I do not reinvest dividends on my equity holdings.

So those just come in and the interest on treasury bills, you know, just comes in, right? What is the interest on treasury bills right now? It's about four and a quarter right now for very short-term treasury bills. Okay. And what does very short-term treasury bill mean? Zero to three months, like one to three months. Do you take money out like at the beginning of the year? Do you take it out quarterly? Yeah, interesting. So I, from my brokerage account, I...

have money that's transferred to my checking account on a monthly basis. So effectively, I've created my own paycheck. How did you transition from saving for retirement to spending? In what way? Well, and you didn't hear about the FIRE movement until after you were retired. A lot of FIRE adherents are super savers. They just save, save, save. They don't spend very much until they reach financial independence. And then you kind of have to flip that switch.

Did you have a switch to flip or were you always comfortable spending? Fortunately, I had a fairly decent income for most of my career. And even though I was saving 30%, I still had a decent amount of spending. And again, you know, you don't, you know, kind of drive cars in a racetrack. You're not spending money. So was comfortable spending in certain areas, but not all areas. So we would spend where it made sense. And we had, you know,

a decent house, we had nice vacations. So spending wasn't really a challenge. Having that decent savings rate allowed us to not worry, you know, it allowed us to accumulate, you know, wealth over time. And so I, even though I guess, yeah,

I didn't have a challenge spending money per se, but I've had more of a challenge in spending what I can logically spend today. That's been more of the recent challenge. And it's kind of like, you know, if you don't fly first class, your inheritors certainly will, right? So I've been telling myself that every time I book a first class ticket. Although Katie, my daughter, is coming on some of these trips and we are both flying first class.

How do I get adopted? Don't you want another daughter, Mark? What is the biggest difference between what you thought retirement was going to be and what reality is? So I guess, you know, this kind of goes back to what...

One of the things I learned about being financially independent was it's not about the money. It's about the time freedom. And I'll give you two examples. One is my father had cancer in 2018 and his treatments weren't going well. He decided not to get treated anymore and went into hospice. And this was in early 2018. And I was

And obviously I was retired. And I just told my wife and daughter, I said, I'm buying a one-way ticket and I don't know when I'll be back. And so I was there for the entire period of his hospice. And at that moment, I realized financial independence is not about gaining a lot of assets. It's about having the freedom to do things like that and be where you need to be at the time you need to be there.

And then, you know, my wife ended up getting cancer in 2019. And for two years, she,

Um, she was going in and out of treatments and so forth. And again, I was able to be there 100% of the time. And she even said at one point, she's like, I am so glad we're financially independent because you can be here the whole time. And you're not worried about somebody calling you at work and saying, we need you here. We need you to be doing this. You know, I was 100% focused on, on her, um,

treatments and, you know, hoping that she was going to get better. Unfortunately, she did not and passed away in 2021. But I realized that is the power of financial independence, not what it can buy us. That's such a powerful statement. And I think that there's people who are not really in the fire community. Maybe they've discovered the fire community. They're like, oh, that'd be great to be a millionaire. That'd be great to quit my job. I hate my boss. And it's not this

this realization that you are now able to do the things that you want to do or be where you need to be. I think you said it so well. And I appreciate you sharing that story. So that retirement has changed a lot then for you from when you first retired. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's definitely been phases of it. And even after my wife passed away in 2021, that's really when I think,

Got very involved in the fire community and it was about the community, not about, you know, the money aspects we'd already, you know, I'd already figured all that out, but it was more of the social aspects. I mean, I could have been just one of these people that their wife passes away. They just sit on the porch or sit in their house and don't do anything and become depressed. And one of those statistics that.

you know, the spouse passes away shortly after the other spouse. Well, the, the financial independence community enabled me not to be that person. And I, it was interesting that, well, I met Amberly grant at in 2019 when my wife first was diagnosed with cancer because we had to go to Denver for seven weeks and she,

like the next day, basically is what they said. You need to be in Denver for the next seven weeks for treatment. And a fortunately I, neither one of us were working. So it was able, we were able to do that, but we didn't have a place to stay.

So we reached out in the ChooseFI Denver group and just said, hey, we need a place to stay. And the outpouring of support was just phenomenal. It brings up emotions every time I think about it. And Amberlee was one of the people that wrote back and just said, hey, I have this Airbnb that I'm going to start putting out there, but I won't do that if you need it. And so we went over there and we met. And that's actually kind of how the whole thing talks.

things started was just conversations that we're having. But so we actually went to a camp fi in 2019. My wife went as well. She was kind of healing from her first bout with this cancer. But then in 2021, after she passed away, Amberly, you know, called and many people in the community kind of reached out and she said, Hey, you know, I'm going to be speaking up at camp five Midwest. I think it would be really good if you came up there and you know, get out of the house, come on up and support me too. And,

Because she's speaking and was a little nervous about it. And I was like, yeah, that's great. I'll go up there. The person I sat next to in the little circle when you introduce yourself with Jordan Grumman. I mean, you couldn't imagine a better person to be sitting next to when you've just lost your spouse. And that was, you know, a really, it's almost like, you know, fate or whatever, you know, it was just a coincidence that we were sitting next to each other. But that was super helpful. And then actually I went to another campfire.

Had a good experience with that one, went to another one after that in Southwest a few months later. And again, Jordan was there and he came over and was like, how are you doing? And so you could see this community is it's something that's not like other communities. I don't know how to describe it. But since then, I've kind of immersed myself and been to a lot of events. But, you know, that was also the Southwest community.

meetup was the when the fun bucket actually came about because I was staying at Kevin's house and we talked until like three in the morning about how we're not spending any of this money and how do we do this and that was actually when the fun bucket was created in 2021 and right before Camp 5 Southwest. We have to take one final ad break but we'll be back with more after this.

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Thanks for sticking with us. So I definitely want to talk about the fun bucket. I tease it in the opening, but I want to highlight the personal finance community, the word community. Yes, there's money talk at meetups, but you can go an entire meetup or an entire campfire without talking about money once. It's the community aspect that is so important in this experience because you...

Whatever you are going through, somebody else has already gone through it and has gotten on the other side of it and can give you advice and is happy to do so. And it's money related. It's personal related. It's kid related. I've had talks about child rearing at camp fives. And I was thinking, I was toying with putting in, if you've been to a camp fi, you've met Mark. Yeah.

at the beginning of the show, because yeah, you are at, I mean, you go to all of the events. So let's talk about this fun bucket. I know Kevin sometimes calls it a different rhyming F word, but for the sake of this show, we're going to call it the fun bucket. What is the fun bucket? So the way it came about was, you know, I was at his house and this was in 2021. So I

let's see that's almost what six years into retirement and he was asking you know what some of the same questions like what do you draw down how much do you draw down and I was he was at the time I think I was averaging less than two percent a year and he said well you need to take some of that icing off the top move it over into a fun bucket I'm like what are you talking about he's like

you are so far ahead of where you could have been if you were drawing down at the 4% rate and with a normal sequence of returns. We've had these good sequences. You are drawing down far less than you could. You need to learn to, you know, turn up the dial a little bit, like in his vernacular, turn it up to 11. And again,

Learn to spend some of this money. And the best way to do that is just to take some of it off the top, move it over into a separate account as if you've already spent it and allow yourself to spend that money. No holds barred.

So there's, you know, if you do do things that you wouldn't ordinarily do. And I also belong to this rock retirement club. And we've talked about that in that club. And it's kind of overcoming the frugality mindset because I was still, you know, always trying to travel on points or for free or whatever.

wouldn't buy the extra drink at dinner or whatever. And so taking some baby steps in allowing yourself to spend. And some of the things might be like hire a cleaner if you don't, instead of cleaning your own house or upgrading to Economy Plus instead of Economy or First Class or whatever. And so the fund bucket, the idea was the money is over on this separate account and literally I have it in a separate online savings account labeled fund bucket.

And I allow myself to do things that I might not have ordinarily agreed to because I would have been like, well, I don't know if it doesn't fit into my budget. I'm not sure. And now it's like, well, the money's sitting there. That's what it's for. Say yes. So, you know, I went to Bali for the last two years, um,

We've done a whole bunch of super high-end cruises in the last couple of years. Whenever there's a FI event that I want to go to, it's not a question of can I. It's just, yeah, sure, let's do it.

And then I reimburse myself from the fund bucket. That's the idea. And what I've found is that I frequently don't even have to reimburse myself. A lot of these things are fitting within my normal kind of paycheck anyway. Not the really big expenses, but some of the smaller ones like upgrading a seat on an airplane. Typically it fits within my budget anyway. But because there was money set aside for that potential spend, it's easier to just say, well, just do it.

So that was kind of how the fun bucket came about. So do you feel like you're missing out on anything? Do you feel like, oh, I would like to do this thing, but I can't because I'm unsure about spending money or I don't want to pull out of my portfolio? Yeah, not anymore. Not since I have the fun bucket, I've not had to.

have that concern because there it's plenty, it's well funded at this point. So I don't really have to, at this point it's more of, is there a space in my calendar to do stuff? We have been, we are recording this on March 17th. We have been having a bit of a market downturn. It is actually a little difficult to keep up with just how far the market is down right now. The last time I looked, it was up like 400 points. It had dropped, I don't know, a thousand last week.

How has the recent market downturn affected your mental status with regards to early retirement? Yeah, it doesn't bother me at all because I think, you know, being an older person, I've been through this quite a few times and also managing money during those periods of time. These, you know,

slightly more volatile periods. And again, I mean, the market is down approximately 10%, which is just a normal correction. I mean, the NASDAQ's down 13%, but it's still not even a bear market, which would be 20%. These are very normal occurrences in the equity markets. This is not something that I worry about in any way. I think it's actually kind of funny that people are talking about it. And I think the reason people are talking about it

people have been vocal about it is, well, certainly there's some political uncertainty with the new administration and everything that's going on. So that raises people's, you know, uncertainty, I guess you would say, or concerns. But we also just have not had a 10% correction, which literally happened, you know, multiple times a year in history, but we have not had one for a very long period of time. So for very new investors, this is something new to them.

And they will learn that this is kind of a normal occurrence, nothing to be concerned about. And the bigger ones are when you have periods of time like the lost decade of the 2000s where the market didn't do anything.

And somebody even asked me, did that delay your retirement? And I said, actually, I think it might have accelerated my FI portfolio. And here's why. Because I was an accumulator during that 10-year period. I was constantly saving and investing during that period. So when you are in the saving and investing mode, in fact, you should cheer for markets to go down because you're buying at that time.

When you want markets to go up is when you are actually going to tap your portfolio. But in the interim, you would rather have a flat or even down market as an accumulator than an up market. So,

The people who are accumulating and have a very long timeframe should actually be happy that the market is going down. Okay. So this is great for people who have a long-term to retirement. What about people who retired yesterday, retired last week, retired last year? Well, that's why I think when you get to a point, and I did not do this and I got very lucky. So I was 100% equities all the way up until the day I retired.

Now, that could have gone very bad if I had a bad sequence starting the day I retired. I got very lucky. I would say in hindsight, it would have been much smarter to have had a runway of cash or cash-like events

investments somewhere in the neighborhood of five years prior, or at least start building that five years prior to retirement. And then with the ultimate goal of having somewhere in the neighborhood of five years of cash in retirement. So that's why, I mean, I'm overly conservative and have the 10 years, but I think five is certainly sufficient. And then you don't have to worry. Like I do not worry about where my paycheck is coming from.

If the markets were to go down or sideways for a very, even a decade, it wouldn't bother me. But if you're, you know, 90% equities or 100% equities, that's a real problem in retirement. So you do need to think about having kind of a more conservative portfolio to some degree in retirement. So you know where that, you know, retirement paycheck is going to come from.

So you don't have to worry about it. And did you say, did I hear you say you have an 80-20 portfolio? Yeah. Okay, so 80% equities and 20% bonds? Well, short-term treasuries. Short-term, okay. Which is not, well, it's even less volatile than bonds themselves. Why do you choose treasuries over bonds? Well, because I like the idea that it is not going to fluctuate. It will fluctuate from the standpoint of

the interest rate environment, you know, just what it will pay, but the principle isn't going to fluctuate.

So right now, earning 4.25%, I'm happy with that. I don't have to worry about any volatility in the fixed income side. Having a higher equity exposure than many retirees might, they might be more like 60-40. I'm much more comfortable having a higher percentage of equities, but offsetting that with a very

kind of, you never want to use the word guaranteed, but principle protected fixed income portfolio of short-term treasuries and money markets. So again, what I'm hearing you say, Mark, is that you made an educated decision. You didn't hear it from your best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend the other day over ice cream. And you're like, oh, you know what? That sounds like an interesting idea. I'll do that. You knew what you were getting into. You understood the investment vehicle.

Yeah. So I kind of came about it two ways. One is you can come at it from how many years of cash do you want? And then therefore, what is that in a percentage of portfolio? You can also do, you know, I have like a retirement plan and you can do the whole Monte Carlo and say, you know, what is the success ratio of the plan based on different, you know, asset allocations. And then, you know, I have been a mentor.

Warren Buffett has been kind of a, you know, a mentor to me, not personally, but just, you know, I've been an owner of Berkshire Hathaway for since the late 90s. And, you know, he talks about the 90-10 portfolio. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but he talks about for my wife after my pass away, the recommendation to the trustee is 90% in, he says, S&P 500, or he has later said, or total stock market and 10% short-term treasuries.

So I used that as a baseline as well. And I said, okay, well, why the 10% in treasuries? Why the 90% in equities? And what does that mean? And I said, I get it. And I've looked at some research papers that go through that. And actually, it's a very logical approach. But I just said, I feel a little bit better just having 80-20 than 90-10. But 90-10 would work as well. What do you do for health care, Mark? So I'm on the ACA. I...

have attempted to get a subsidy but every year my income has kind of gone through the level where i can get a subsidy for a couple of reasons one is the year my wife passed away i ended up doing very large roth conversions because i was still in the married filing joint category the following year i was considered a surviving spouse because my daughter was a dependent so i also did very large roth conversions before i dropped to the single tax bracket

And then I sold my house, which doesn't help because I had some capital gains there. So this may be the first year I get a subsidy, but I'm not too concerned about it because the health care cost really isn't that significant in my mind. Okay. That is one of the biggest questions that I get is how am I going to provide for health care for me and my partner, my family, whatever their makeup is. And I have also...

also been on the ACA and not found it to be a difficult experience to navigate. If you are finding it difficult to navigate, I would absolutely recommend an insurance broker because the

The site can be a little bit confusing. I did end up going with an insurance broker because I was looking for a specific doctor to be covered by a specific type of plan. And she was able to help me find that in a way that I was not able to do. But yeah, I don't find the ACA to be all that difficult. It's actually, you know, thinking back. So when my wife was diagnosed, she ended up

getting laid off from her job which is a whole nother story i won't go into that but um she was let go and we ended up going on cobra which was very expensive through her employer in hindsight and then later switching to the aca after um i think it was about 12 months or something like that even though we could have gone for 18 months i think it just worked out that we did 12 months in hindsight we should have just switched the aca right away it would have been actually less money

Yeah, COBRA, I think there are very specific circumstances that COBRA makes sense. But COBRA is usually really, really expensive because you're paying all of the employer subsidized costs as well as all the ones that you had.

And it just always feels like it's two or $3,000 a month for Cobra. Yeah, it was like 1800 a month. And then when we went on our own, it was like a thousand a month or something. So Mark, what do you do all day when you're not gallivanting around the world? Good question. Lately I've been like nesting on this house.

You have to come over and see my landscaping. It's almost all in. Oh, yes, I would love to. So lately it's been some of that. And, you know, I get up, I like still like to read the Wall Street Journal every day and I exercise. So that's, you know, my mornings pretty much. And then I try to always have at least one thing on my calendar that I feel like at the end of the day, I'm going to be glad I felt like I was productive.

So, you know, I do have this podcast that I do. So that takes up some time, you know, in the week. And then there's a lot of, you know, travel still involved. I do still have a little foothold in Crested Buttes. And sometimes I'll go back there. This past weekend I was skiing there. So, you know, your time definitely gets filled up even in retirement. So it's not a hard thing. And then with this community here in Longmont, there's always something to do.

So never a challenge of having something to do every day. I really am sometimes very surprised when people say, oh, I don't want to retire. I don't know what I would do all day long.

And I look at my husband, I look at everybody else in the Phi community locally, and I say none of them had time to have a job. Now they're constantly doing, they're constantly active. Longmont is a great city to be retired in because there's always people that are not working during the day that can go and hang out and do whatever it is that you want to do. Yeah, I would 100% concur with that. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to move because in my other town that I lived in, Crested Butte,

it's a very expensive town. So people are having to work multiple jobs and no one was ever available. And that's the benefit of being here now is everyone's available, or at least everyone I know is available. So there's plenty of opportunity to do things with people. And I think what I found in this retirement period is the money side, we kind of figure out relatively quickly for most of us.

But the social side is really where you should be focusing on making sure you're complete in this kind of retirement period. Yeah, absolutely. The retiree who retires and then passes away is doing that mostly because they don't have anything to do. They sit there sedentary. They are not out there having these relationships and doing these things and everything.

I mean, typically they're older, but if you don't know what you want to do when you retire,

Start making a list. Carl and I spoke recently with Justin Peters, who talked about making a bucket list and keeping like starting your bucket list. Now make your bucket list at continually add things to it, but also start going through your bucket list and checking things off. So the journey is enjoyable as well as once you get to retirement, you're used to doing things. So now you say goodbye to your job and you do these things full time. Mark, this is a great question.

This was so much fun today. I always love talking to you and thank you so much for joining me. Where can people find Mark's Money Mind? Yeah, so on any of your podcast players, Mark's Money Mind usually comes out about once a week, but usually when I'm traveling, sometimes I miss a week here or there. I've been back now, so...

hopefully back to a regular schedule and or MarksMoneyMind.com is also where you can find me. Mark, thank you so much for your time today. And my viewers, if you like this video, please give it a thumbs up and don't forget to subscribe to this channel for more inspiring fire videos just like Mark's. This is Mindy Jensen signing off.