Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Welcome back to the Health Longevity Secrets show with your host, Dr. Robert Lufkin. His book titled Lies I Taught in Medical School is a New York Times bestseller. See the show notes for a link to download a free chapter. And now please enjoy this week's episode as we start rethinking cancer treatment with Dr. Katie Deming.
Inventional cancer therapies may be missing additional opportunities for healing. The recent breakthrough publication showing brain cancer three-year survival rates of 66% on a ketogenic diet versus 8% on a regular diet highlight this possibility. We'll have a link in the show notes. This was a small study.
And more work certainly needs to be done. But it's a very exciting development. So this week, we discover why our guest believes the real battle against cancer is fought at the metabolic level, not through DNA-focused treatments.
Join me as we sit down with Dr. Katie Deming, a former radiation oncologist who has completely redefined her approach to cancer care. After experiencing a life-altering event that shifted her perspective, Katie now champions a holistic methodology that she calls conscious oncology.
We break down her innovative views on cancer's root causes, suggesting that the true culprit lies in mitochondrial dysfunction rather than primarily DNA mutations.
Katie draws upon groundbreaking research and personal insights to argue that emotional trauma and stress also significantly contribute to physical illnesses, including cancer. In this eye-opening episode, we also touch on fascinating insights from experts like Dr. Thomas Seyfried and Kelly Turner, examining how strategies like ketogenic diets and emotional healing can lead to remarkable improvements in cancer outcomes.
Katie and I discuss alternative methods like plant medicine and fasting, focusing on the body's innate ability to heal when properly supported.
So whether it's through detoxification, nutritional balance, or addressing emotional scars, this conversation provides a comprehensive view of cancer treatment that challenges conventional methods and emphasizes each individual's unique healing journey. Listen in to explore how aligning health strategies with personal values can create a transformative path to healing.
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This episode is brought to you by El Nutra, maker of the Prolonged Fasting Mimicking Diet. If you'd like to try it, use the link in the show notes for 20% off. And now, please enjoy this week's episode. Hey, Katie, welcome to the program. Thank you so much. It's my pleasure to be here.
Yeah, I'm so excited about your work as a conscious oncologist and some of the amazing ideas you've had. But maybe before we do, could you just take a moment and take us on the journey on how you came to this spot and are interested in such a fascinating area? Yeah.
Sure. So I am a radiation oncologist by training. I did all of my medical school and training at Duke in North Carolina. And then I practiced radiation oncology for 20 years and specialized in breast and gynecologic cancers and also served as a healthcare leader, really looking at end-to-end cancer care. So overseeing cancer
from screening and prevention all the way through diagnosis treatment and into survivorship or end of life care. And I did that, so 20 years of functioning in that capacity as a healthcare leader and also as a radiation oncologist. And then in 2020, I had an event that's very similar to a near death experience that really shifted everything for me. And I had started to have some glimpses
like i would say for the two years prior to that like something was off but i couldn't put my finger on it and i didn't know exactly what it was but then after this event
what I realized was we were not really making people better, that really what we were doing in cancer therapy was not healing the underlying problem. And that's really what shifted me out of my practice into what I'm now describing. It's funny, my cat is coming to say hello. What in my current practice that I call conscious oncology and really consciousness
conscious oncology is a holistic approach to healing cancer that deals with the physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual aspects of healing to bring wholeness back to the individual.
Oh, that's fascinating. So what is Western medicine's approach to cancer right now missing out? So what is it specifically that conscious oncology approach brings and how is it successful?
Sure. So in Western oncology, we are taught that cancer is related to DNA damage and that either that DNA damage is inherited through inherited mutations or through damage from could be environmental toxins or other things. And this DNA damage then leads to uncontrolled cell growth.
And all of the therapies, you know, toxic, like cytotoxic chemotherapy addresses just killing those cells. Basically, you've got uncontrolled cells, let's kill them and get rid of them. Or you have targeted agents that are targeting specific receptors on the cells or immunotherapy that are basically targeting this issue of uncontrolled cell growth.
But I actually believe that we have that completely backwards, that I don't think that the DNA mutations are what are leading to the cancer. I think actually the DNA damage is related to a metabolic dysfunction and that you have cells that are dysfunctional in the mitochondria and
And if you have deficient or dysfunctional mitochondria, cells end up doing fermentation. And this comes to Otto Warburg's work and the Warburg effect. And basically, Otto Warburg showed that the hallmark of cancer is doing fermentation, so the production of lactic acid in the presence of oxygen.
And so cancer, if the hallmark of cancer is this sign that cells are doing fermentation, this is kind of the fundamental underlying problem. And this is similar to the things that you talk about, right? So as a population, we have metabolic dysfunction, and this is why
diabetes, obesity, neurodegenerative disease, disease, cancer are all skyrocketing because we are increasing the toxicity in our bodies through, um,
all of the things that we're exposed to in 2024. And we're also not getting the nourishment that we were designed to receive. And when you have increased toxicity and lowered nourishment, you basically have dysfunctional mitochondria. If you have dysfunctional mitochondria, ultimately your cells can start using fermentation. And then I, this is what I think is happening. I can't tell you that this is what's happening, but this is based on everything that I'm learning is
is I think what's happening is that when you're doing fermentation in the presence of oxygen, those oxygen species, you end up creating oxygen radicals. So free radical species from doing fermentation in the presence of oxygen and those free radicals then cause the DNA damage. And so the DNA damage is really the effect of this metabolic dysfunction rather than the cause.
So that's like one of the very foundational pieces of my practice. But the other piece is that emotional trauma and distress can also lead to physical illness in the body. And I think this is tied into it as well. And that is also a big part of my practice is helping people with emotional trauma and emotional fluency, processing their emotions and not getting caught in that because that also can affect our mitochondria.
Wow. So let me unpack that a little bit. That's a lot of information, but a lot of good information, I think. So let's see if I got this right. So basically,
Cancer cells have DNA damage. No one argues that and there are some famous mutations that occurred. But the problem is when we look at cancer cells, the mutations aren't consistent and there doesn't appear to be a rhyme or reason on it.
And then also, as Otto Warburg famously showed in Germany a long time ago, that cancer cells have abnormal metabolism in the mitochondria, specifically related to aerobic metabolism and aerobic glycolysis. And
that's present in cancer cells too. Nobody disagrees with that. And the question becomes then, are either of these causal? In other words, do the mutations cause cancer or are they just a side effect of
of some other process and similarly with the metabolic disease. And what you're saying is that your belief is that the metabolic disease is what's driving the cancer and the mutations, which usually occur are secondary to metabolic abnormalities. And, and, and,
we've had other people, Thomas Seyfried and some other people that are talking about metabolic, you know, causes of cancer and kind of echoing out of Warburg's work too. So it's,
really seems to be getting a lot of traction. And it's almost like Chris Palmer and Georgia Ede on metabolic psychiatry, how, you know, fixing metabolism fixes mental illness in some patients. This is almost the cancer, similar aspects to it. So, and then
to your second point about mental illness, mental, not illness, but sort of frame of mind, spiritual path, sense of purpose, stress, anxiety, these things are important in cancer, and they're not given the attention they should be from Western medicine. And the mechanisms
One of the mechanisms is that these things actually drive abnormal mutation, not abnormal. They drive abnormal metabolism, which then is literally causal for the cancer. So this will make cancer worse than with that. What are the what are your favorite like go to arguments or papers? Are there any good use cases for for now? I mean,
that shows that where metabolic therapy really wins out in cancer treatment or is it still kind of evolving and we still need a lot more work to do? - Well, I think this is a big challenge because Thomas Seyfried's work is amazing. So he's doing incredible work
with a ketogenic diet. But the interesting thing is that there is not a lot of money to put into this, right? And so the big studies that we have in cancer are funded by the pharmaceutical industry. And so, you know, there's a phase two trial going on right now. And it may be at USC. I can't remember Jethro,
Thole, I think is his last name, is an oncologist who's doing it. But this is part of the problem is that there is not funding for these studies of looking at purely metabolic interventions. And then the other part is that all of the Western trained oncologists that have just their standard training and have not gone on to do additional training have no education in nutrition.
and have no understanding of this. Actually, most clinics that you'll go into have candy bowls in the cancer centers, and they have volunteers walking around giving out graham crackers and sodas. And so this is a problem that unfortunately, we don't have a ton of data yet. But looking at the work that Thomas Seyfried is doing, you can clearly arrest a
cancer with using a ketogenic diet. And then he does press pulse, which adds glutamine, basically suppression with that as well. And what's interesting is that ketogenic diet alone doesn't get rid of cancer cells, but it can slow that process and basically halt things.
And so that's why I believe it's not the full answer. I feel like that there's something else and that's where the whole emotional process
part comes in because we do have data actually like the ACE study, which is the adverse childhood event study followed thousands of children into adulthood and looked at the number of adverse childhood events that they had, which are basically traumas. So it could be physical abuse, could be mental abuse, could be having a parent addicted to drugs or incarcerated or a divorce, whole list of things. But what they found was
the higher the ACE score, the higher the incidence of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, cancer. So we know that there's this link, right? But this is the challenge is that there is not a ton of money in healing emotional trauma, you know, with cancer and then also with diet. And so a lot of this is piecing together, you know,
the information from different sources. But one of the areas where we have data around emotional healing and the impact of that on cancer is in the radical remission data. And this comes from Kelly Turner's work. Kelly Turner's a PhD who studied
people who cured their cancer without conventional therapy. And she came up with initially it was a list of nine things that they were doing in common. So this is correlation, not causation, right? These are things that those people all did in common. But two of the things that they did were related to emotions. One was releasing past emotional trauma. And the second one was fostering positive emotions.
And so for me, you know, lacking the data and knowing that it's maybe not forthcoming because of the financial interests at play, I basically in my practice have been working with these premises and building on it. And what I'm finding is
is that when you are able to help someone get metabolically healthy and when you're able to help them get the nourishment that we were designed to receive, and that's not just through the diet, but also sunlight, right? We've been taught that the sun is not good for us, but the sun is
you know, nourishment for us and also with connecting to the earth and the electrons from the earth. When you start to help people get the nourishment that they need and start to eliminate the toxicity in their body and help them release past trauma that may be, you know, really weighing them down and teach them how to become fluent with their emotions and
people start to heal naturally. And that's really what my practice is about. Not that any one of these things are the cure for cancer, but when you get the body back in line and detoxify it and give it the nourishment that it needs and also calm the nervous system, you start to see miraculous things happen. And I'm happy that having that happen in my practice where I've had clients who, one with brain metastases, basically had her brain metastasized
tumor go away completely and you would understand this as a radiologist. So she had radiosurgery, but we were doing all these other things including a prolonged water fast. And usually when you have radiosurgery, the scan at three months will show that the tumor is a little bigger, but basically, you know, maybe a little bit less contrast enhancement and then over time it shrinks and then eventually there's just kind of scar tissue there, but you'll see maybe some necrosis around it or whatever. At three months,
her MRI showed complete resolution, like an empty cavity of nothing there, which basically when her neurosurgeon saw it, he said, "It's not there."
And he was sounded so surprised and she said, well, isn't that what you expect? He said, no, not at all. This is, this scan is not at all what I would expect to see. And then I have another client with breast cancer. Basically we got her surgeon to give her three months and we did all of this emotional work, getting her diet cleaned up, working on all of these different areas and then did a prolonged water fast. When she went back in to have her mammogram, cancer was gone. So I,
I don't think that I'm doing this. I'm just helping them clean out their bodies. But this is what's possible is our bodies are miraculous and can really heal themselves if we remove the things that don't belong and give it the nourishment that it needs. Yeah. And so is it then do you think it's the metabolic health that that we're restoring that makes this happen? In other words, is it
The same things that would make someone metabolically healthy for their Alzheimer's disease or for their diabetes or anything else would also, you know, basically nutrition, sleep, exercise, and then stress and mental well-being increase.
These same things obviously apply to cancer. Are there additional things we should do for cancer or are there things we should avoid in a metabolically healthy approach for the cancer patients? Because they're
There's a sort of a general movement to be metabolically healthy, right? With all these things. Is there anything particular that, let's say, a cancer patient should do to be metabolically healthy that a regular patient shouldn't? Or vice versa, maybe, is there anything a cancer patient shouldn't do that a normal person would do to be metabolically healthy? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah.
I think that the principles apply across the board, right? And I think it's individual. This is one thing that I think we missed the mark in Western medicine too, is when we come up with these protocols and we're like, this is exactly how you do it for this type of cancer.
or this disease. And what I would argue is that every person needs something slightly different. And also, their values are different. And so someone might say to me that they're not a big meat eater. And so we're working with the
what values they have too. And I feel like that's really important. And for me, each person that comes in front of me, cancer or another condition is they're an individual and their bodies are different and there are principles
that we follow but it's it's going to be different and also with cancer people can come in and have significant weight loss right so they're already have lost a lot of weight I'm not going to put that person on a strict ketogenic diet because then they're going to lose more weight and so it's meeting each person where they are what they need but I wouldn't say that it's so different I think
the foundational problem is a population one that we're experiencing. And I think the way that disease manifests for different people is different, right? So not everyone is going to develop cancer, but all of these conditions come down to this basic premise that metabolically we're not fit. We are not getting the nutrition that we need. We are, you know, it
exposed to so many toxins and we're not eliminating and detoxing that. So I think the foundational principles are the same, but then each individual, and then especially when you're looking at it from a holistic perspective, because, you know, I talked about the, you know, physical aspects, which diet, nutrition, rest,
you know, sunlight connection with earth connection with nature emotions. But then also it's our thoughts. Like what are we creating with our thoughts? What's been programmed into our mind through education, through, you know, whatever family dynamic we were in or our schooling and really understanding that piece. Because I believe that the subconscious mind is,
drives a lot of our behavior, right? So 95% of our behavior is driven by the subconscious mind, which is just below the surface of what we're consciously aware of. And that's what people don't recognize is that you can know the right things to do or what you want to create. But if what's been programmed into your subconscious is counter to that, you keep creating the same patterns over and over again, and people can't figure that out. So a lot of the work that I do is helping people understand
Okay, what was programmed into my subconscious? And how do I program my subconscious with things that are powerful for me, for me creating perfect health in my body, and then spiritual alignment. And when I talk about spirituality in my practice, I'm really talking about helping people get aligned with who they are authentically, because many of us get conditioned to become someone
that is maybe different than who we are in our core and helping people get back to that also helps them become healthy because that's a stress that's a chronic stress to be living a life that's not authentic to yourself yeah we we just had uh joe dispensa on the program who's a who's uh
does a lot of work about meditation, but it's deeper than meditation. It's almost a spiritual journey. I just attended one of his workshops in Mexico for a week, and it was mind-blowing. It was really powerful. But a lot of the things he talks about is spirituality,
sort of the placebo effect, but also about how we define our reality of not only the present for the future based on our expectations and how we interpret things. And it can be very powerful, even to the point of certainly changing diseases and reversing diseases. It sounds like this
similar to some of the things that you're looking at with the traumas and the way we look at things like that. Do they overlap there? Yeah, for sure. There's overlap in the work that Joe's doing. Incredible work. So, you know, the work that I do is with the subconscious and I have different techniques that I work, but Joe dispenses
Meditations are, you know, a lot of my clients use those and have been to his events as well. So it's definitely complimentary. We're doing similar work. It's just that I kind of cover all of the bases where he's really focused on this piece about using your mind, which is so powerful. It is the most powerful tool that we have. But so I do that. Plus, I'm kind of looking at the whole ecosystem of a person's health and life to help them get everything in alignment.
One of the emerging technologies we're seeing with sort of the mental space, and I guess it's been applied in cancer patients, but really as more of an end-of-life type thing, and that's the use of psychedelics. But I'm not thinking of them so much as an end-of-life hospice approach, but more as a way of
Basically turning down the default mode network and getting out of those ruts and grooves in our lives that
allow us to be more open-minded and look at things with more of a beginner's brain. And Joe doesn't, to be clear, Joe doesn't use those at all in his work, but there are plenty of other credible people that are doing some interesting work with it. Do you see any role for those in cancer patients or do you see how that could be useful? Yeah, so it's definitely being used in the cancer space.
My perspective is that these medicines historically have been from plants, right? So plant medicine and administered by shamans who could see the light body. And that when you give someone plant medicine, you're basically untangling the light body. And if the person who is
administering and kind of walking you through the journey, can't see the light body, you can actually come back together messed up and actually really harmed from these medicines. And then the synthetics are a little bit different, right? But personally, I won't use them in my practice because I can't see the light body. And I don't know what the impact of that would be on my clients for me to
doing something like this without the reverence for it. And I think this is my concern actually, is that there are a lot of people who are giving these medicines and I think the intention is good. I think that people really, it can open you, it does open you, but it can open people and then if you don't know how to bring it back together, it can harm them. And that's my big concern is that it's becoming very widely used and you can go get a certificate and just teach people how to
do this, but yet they're not really trained to do this type of work. This was reserved for very holy people who could see things that most of us can't see. Can you talk about the light body a little bit more? Some of our audience may not be familiar with that concept. Sure. So we have a physical body, we have an emotional body, a mental body, and we have a light body. We're light beings.
And basically the light body, that's actually like the six foot distance is interesting with COVID and everything. It's like the light body is like a six foot egg that we are in that we don't see that, but that is what's eternal. You know, we shed this body when we leave here, but we have a light body that continues on. And this is obviously more of a spiritual thing.
concept, but the plant medicine is working on the light body. And that's why I brought it up in this context is most people don't understand that. And the reason why I know that is because I work with a very powerful healer who
can see the light body and has done this work, but he has cautioned me. He's like, you don't want to get involved with this because you can't see. And you have to be really cautious about telling your clients about where to go because they can be harmed by this kind of thing. Fascinating. Well, let's talk about your practice a little bit. And what is,
what sort of patients will benefit from working with you? In other words, is it cancer prevention? Is it cancer treatment? Or is it post-cancer things?
Tell us about your program. Sure. So I see people in all of the categories that you described, people who maybe are worried about cancer and they want to do everything that they can to avoid it. But most of the people who see me have been diagnosed with cancer and
And I see people who are going through conventional therapy, but more and more of my practice is either people who are done with conventional therapy or are pursuing more natural approaches. And I really came into this not knowing at all what my practice would look like, but thinking I would be supporting people who were having conventional therapy, but I would do these other things to help them get better results with whatever they're doing.
But what I'm seeing is that if we think about cancer as a problem of the mitochondria, and if the baseline problem is we've got too much toxicity in the body and then inadequate nourishment, when you give someone chemotherapy, what does it do to that problem? It actually further worsens it. It increases toxicity in the body and lowers the nourishment. And so what
What I'm finding is that I can help people while they're getting conventional therapy, but I can help people more when they're either done or if they're not doing that because we're basically constantly chasing our tails to detoxify the body that has, you know, had now more toxicity put in. And the other thing that's interesting is I take care of a lot of people who have stage four cancer. And I don't believe that stage four cancer is incurable because I've seen it. I've seen people have their cancer, uh,
disappear. And also Kelly Turner's data has shown that, that people can have stage four cancer go away. Excuse me, could you define that just for our audience so they know what stage four cancer is? Yeah, so stage four cancer means cancer that has spread beyond the organ where it started and has gone, so let's just say breast cancer that has spread to the bones or spread to the brain or spread to the liver or lungs.
that's stage four. And in Western medicine, we would say that person's incurable, right? That we can give things to prolong their life, but not make the cancer go away completely.
And so many of the people that I take care of who have stage four cancer, one of the issues that comes up is that once they are on, you know, therapies, then they just keep switching to the next line therapy and the next line therapy. So second line therapy is less effective than first line therapy and third line is less effective than the third, second line and so on.
And what happens is it's almost like a train you get on that you never can get off because they're getting weaker and weaker in the process. And so this has been one of the things that's kind of opened my eyes to say, gosh, maybe I can be more helpful for people if they're, you know, maybe they've tried some therapies and then they haven't worked and they want to take a break. We can, you know, do this extensive. I work with them for like 12 weeks.
and we really revamp their diet. We detoxify their body. We also do prolonged water fasts, which can be very healing for the body. And yeah, so...
It's evolving for me. This is a new practice. I've been in practice now a year in this new space. I've been obviously an oncologist for 20 plus years, but I'm learning things that have defied what I thought was possible before. And so I'm just, I'm open and I'm, you know, learning and seeing and exploring the ways that I can help people in a safe way that is, you know,
keeping, restoring the body rather than making them sicker. And how long are your water fasts you typically do?
So it depends. But the, you know, if for someone with cancer, if they could do 30 days, that is really a way to eradicate, have the body, basically what happens when you go into fasting, once you get in like seven days or so, the body starts eating cells that are dysfunctional. So what does it start eating first? It starts eating tumor cells.
tumors. It starts eating cysts. It starts eating the things that are basically dysfunctional cells in the body. But my clients that, you know, logistics come into play here because people have to rest while they're fasting. If you don't rest during fasting, you're just stressing the body. So you have to be able to take time off work. And then there's a refeeding period. So my clients have done between 14 and 17 days water fasting, just water, nothing else.
Wow. Wow. And jumping around a little bit, since the cancer is a metabolic disease, basically a mitochondrial disease, are there specific tests you use to test mitochondrial function in a cancer patient that help you quantify the response or help you guide treatment? Is there anything available for that?
Yeah, there are tests available. But the one thing that I've, you know, I think that there's kind of a functional approach, a lot of testing, a lot of supplements, that kind of thing. And then there's more of an integrative approach. And my approach tends to be more integrative and holistic of like we use whole foods when we can and we supplement only the things that we can't.
And so I tend to do less testing and more based on how people's bodies are responding and looking at what, how are they feeling? How are they mentally responding? How are, how is their body showing up? What is the cancer doing? So I do less testing and more of kind of a holistic approach for people. And not to say there's one, you know, absolutely there's a place for testing. It's just,
In my practice, it's more of a holistic approach. And then I guess a similar question as far as specific therapies targeted to the mitochondria. And obviously, all of metabolic health is about mitochondrial health. But, you know, we hear about red light therapy being, you know, particularly effective for mitochondria or, you know,
ice baths, heat baths, you know, hormesis, any of those strategies that you find useful? Yeah, I just did red light this morning. So red light, absolutely. PEMF is great also for people with cancer. Sauna, infrared sauna is both detoxing, but then also helpful for them. PEMF, pulsed electromagnetic. Pulsed electromagnetic, yeah, fields. But the one thing that ice baths,
I tend to be a little bit not as gung-ho for everyone to do ice baths because it can be stressful on the body. And this is, again, back to the individuality. If someone has cancer, it may be too much for their body. So there's this balance of getting them back into a place of really not being stressed before we do something like ice baths.
Yeah, so many things, so many different things to try. Is there any message you want to, as we near the end of our program, is there any message you want to leave people with about the work you're doing to communicate anything we haven't touched on yet?
well i think you know a lot of people don't know this but the statistics today are that one in two men and one in three women will develop cancer in their lifetime and to me that's unacceptable and i think that it's really a story of hope because we've been sold the story of like oh cancer is a death sentence and you know there's you only have to do these toxic treatments and i think that
that what we're realizing across the board with so many diseases is that we can actually become well. Like this is not a lost cause. Like there are things that you're an example of that. All of the people that you help are an example of that, that I think it's a story of hope that cancer is not what we've been told it is. It's not a death sentence.
You need to do some things. You absolutely requires change. But I think there's so much hope for people to get well. And that for me is exciting coming from a place where I felt like, you know, this is a story that's not changing and that it's only getting worse with the statistics. But the truth is, is I think the reason why it's getting worse and worse is because we don't have the story correct.
But through people like you who are sharing, no, if we can get ourselves metabolically fit, we can start to heal a lot of things in our body. And that's the message that I want to have is that, you know, there's hope. This is exciting because we're at a period where people are starting to talk about this and shift the paradigm.
Yeah, that's such a beautiful thought. Hopefully, yeah, the best is yet to come in this area. And Katie, how can people reach you and follow you on social media? Maybe give them your website also so they can find out more information about your program if they'd like. Sure. So my website is katiedeming.com and I have a podcast called Born to Heal.
And on my podcast, I share my story of leaving Western medicine, what kind of drove me to leave. And then I invite guests on every week to share the things that I should have, I feel like I should have been taught in medical school. And I'm learning. So I bring my listeners on this journey of learning with me. And people can find me on social media. I am the Conscious Oncologist on Instagram and Facebook.
I love it. Well, this has been so much fun, Katie. I've got so many more questions. We'll have to schedule a follow-up. But for now, thank you so much for the work you're doing. And thanks for spending time with us today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's my pleasure.
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