668 - Holiday Live Show 2024
01:00:35 Share

Hey, this is John. Today's episode has even more swearing than usual, so if you're in a car with your kids, this is a standard warning about that. Hi! Hello! Hello and welcome! My name is John August. My name is Craig Mazin. And this is the holiday live show of Script Notes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are...

Every time they do it, they get more and more bored. Interesting to see. I know. It feels like an obligation. It feels like a chore, but it's never a chore. It's a little bit like Christmas. Oh.

Do you enjoy Christmas? Do you enjoy the holidays? I actually love Christmas. I know you like cooking. You like baking. I do, but I also like love Christmas because when I was a kid, I wasn't allowed to have Christmas because Jew. Yeah. And there was like a real thing when I was growing up. Yeah, sure. You know, I wanted a Christmas tree and I just thought like, oh, we can at least get a Christmas tree.

No. No Christmas tree? No, because that meant you were giving in. See, last night I was over at Aline's house, Aline Brosh McKenna, you know, our Joan Rivers, and she was having a Christmas tree decorating party. It was really, really fun. So I thought maybe you got to have that joy. But no? No.

Doesn't look like I've ever had any joy. That's not what happens. But I do. I love Christmas time. I love Christmas stuff. I love Christmas music. I love time of year. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Yes. I'm like a little elf. Yeah. And you got some red socks on. So one thing I always thought about this show is this show is a benefit for Hollywood Heart.

Let's remember what Hollywood Heart is. They are a great charity that provides summer camping experiences for kids who otherwise would not be able to go to summer camp. Yes. We want to support them every year, so this is a benefit for them. So thank you, everybody who bought a ticket tonight. Thank you for a great charity. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you for Hollywood Heart for having us. Yes. It's great to do this each year. And we give how much, like half of the money to them?

We give every single penny out of tonight goes to them. Plus, we are chipping in on top of that. So we're matching dollar for dollar. Everything raised here is going to Hollywood Hearts. Sorry. Sorry, Craig. Okay. All right. You're going to have to sell another show or something to make up for what we're giving up tonight.

Fine. Well, let's talk about tonight. Tonight we have three very, very special guests. Oh, here's the thing. The people who are listening to this at home, who are clicking through their podcast player, they know who's on the show, but you in the audience, I don't think you do. Do you? No. Oh, this is pretty exciting. Or they're like, they just get up and walk out. I'm like, oh my God, they're storming the doors. First off, we have Jack Schaefer, creator of WandaVision and Agatha All Along.

She is here to walk us down that witch's road. We'll ask her all sorts of questions about how she put that show together and also why it kind of made me want to become a lesbian. There's something about that show that just pulled me over in a strange direction. And how's it going? It's going pretty well. I'm like, yeah, I see that. Yeah. Same. Then we'll sit down with Brian Jordan Alvarez and Stephanie Koenig of English Teacher. That's right.

to talk about their hit series and how to work with your bestie without killing each other, which I think you and I have done a really good job of. I think we've done a pretty good job. We can always get some more help. We can always get some more hints from the experts there. Yes. And not intentionally, Craig, but somehow we booked the creators of the gayest shows...

Well, I'm going to give them a run for their money. I got to be honest with you. All right. Season two. All right. And Craig, you have a special game that we're going to play. Yes, we're going to do a special little Christmas song game in the middle of the show. I'm very excited about it. And it's got a little twist. Craig put it all in the workflow, but he's like, don't look at it. So I didn't look at it. So it's a surprise to me as well. You will be a contestant. I'll be a contestant. And there will be two exciting guest contestants. Yes. Who just found out they're going to be guest contestants. So we're so excited for that.

We're also going to have a raffle, which is raising more money for this incredible charity of Hollywood Heart. Now, there's three things you can win in this raffle. One of them is a guaranteed audience question. Otherwise known as a GAC. Yeah.

And so if you put your name in for the... I hear Megan's voice laughing. I'm so excited. She's the only one that really loves me. If you put in a thing for Raffle, you could get a chance to ask a question of us and this amazing panel. So it's time to be thinking about what question would you want to ask? Yeah, I mean, you certainly don't want to flop on the Christmas show. No, you better ask a good fucking question. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Cool.

Yeah, I just swore. That's how serious I am about this. Oh, my. I know, the vapors. We should not waste any more time. All right. Let's bring out Jack Schaefer, who is a writer, director, and a showrunner who created two very witchy series. Jack Schaefer. The witches roam down, down, down. The witches roam down. The witches roam. Blood and tears and bones.

I got a little lost on my witch's road to the stage. Yeah, you gotta follow the arrows. There were arrows. It couldn't have been easier. So we played you out to the Witch's Road song. And that's really, I want to start with that question. So how early in the creation of Agatha All Along, which is so spectacular, but how early did you know that, okay, we need a song and the song is not going to be sensational

theme music, but it's actually being a fundamental part of the narrative of the series. Yeah. We always knew there would be music because it was so central to WandaVision. So I had sort of a checklist for when we decided to do the Agatha show. Like, here are the things we need. We need, like, another bop or bops, plural. We need, like, hair, makeup, wardrobe. We need opportunities to see her conning. You know, we needed a meta piece. We needed to examine some form of tropes. And the music piece...

sort of dovetailed with a larger mantra that I had, which is I wanted the show to be a spell. Like that was my sort of guiding light. And as we sort of worked it in the room, I think it was probably three weeks in that it became that the song is the spell.

So it started as like, it's the thing that opens the road. It's the spell that opens the road. But then as we worked it more, it became, it's actually, I'm spoiling everything. Yeah, I was just saying. Sorry, sorry. If you've not seen WandaVision, leave right now and go home and watch it, then listen to the episode afterwards. Yeah. So it became, it's actually the Khan. It's Agatha's Khan. It's the spell she is placing on the characters around her, on witches globally, and it's

I mean, this was my big aspiration, on the audience. That she's pulling one over on the audience with this centuries-long con that is the song. So in listening to you talk about it, it just sort of reinforces this question I'm dying to ask you. Because in your show and the way your narrative is structured, there seemingly...

is infinite possibilities. You could do kind of almost anything. I love that you put these interesting restrictions on yourself, but I'm really interested when you said work it, right? You guys can go down so many different witches roads. How do you know which ones feel consistent with some sort of, I don't want to say rules, but a kind of consistency when the nature of supernatural narrative is that you can kind of do whatever you want. Yeah. It,

takes so much discipline and it's something that I learned on WandaVision because Wanda's power is that she can make anything happen. Right. And that's too much and too big. So in order for it to hold together and be satisfying for the audience, we have to put restrictions on that and kind of in every way. One of the early discoveries on WandaVision was, you know, we knew we were going to do WandaVision and sitcoms.

But it was actually Kevin Feige who early on helped us realize that we needed to limit the sitcoms we were doing because there's workplace sitcoms. Like we were looking at Cheers. We were looking at Seinfeld. We were looking at Golden Girls. We were looking at all kinds of stuff, but it didn't have any rigor. There wasn't any reason. Rigor. Great word. And it's, you know, cause it was like, what is Wanda after? And Wanda is after like the personality.

nuclear family. So that actually then pushed to the side all in the family. It even pushed Roseanne to the side because any sort of like larger, like social commentary or reflection, any kind of like political element, we were only entertaining aspirational family sitcoms. And that was a revelation to me, like what that did for us, because it meant that the

themes were so supported and her journey was so supported. And so then I just, you know, we applied that same ethos and that same sort of restriction in Agatha all along. And it was all about Agatha's journey and supporting these characters and truly what is a witch? That's what we came back to every time. Got it. So that question of what is a witch is what you went into this writer's room with, like what, as you assembled your team, what I think I really like about

Yeah, so I like to have a very robust document going in that says...

here's what we have, here's what we're missing, here's what I desperately want to achieve. So with the Agatha document, at the top, it said, the show is a spell. Then it was sort of explaining conceptually what I meant by that. And so for me, it was like the never-ending story. It was the usual suspects. It was these...

There's pieces where at the end there is a twist that feels right, but you realize you have been duped. And it's expansive. With Never Ending Story, it's like the whole thing unfolds and you realize you've been a part of it the whole time. I mean, that's a children's movie, but it turned my head around. It was an ecstatic feeling. So that was the aspiration, is how do we...

the audience into our coven. You know, and one of the ways you do that is you hire the Lopez's to write an earworm. And like, that's the song really did cast a spell, you know, and that, that is a trick of a lot of really talented people. But the document is also very brass tacks of like, here are the characters we're looking at. Here is who like they're, you know, they're Marvel rules to things like here's who, who's on deck for us. Should we partake? Here's who we have to stay away from. Like,

I was desperate to have them do a Fleetwood Mac style performance. And I didn't know how it fit. I didn't know what it was, but I was like, I can't, I can't like, I have this bee in my bonnet and it's never going to go away. And that ended up leading to, has everyone seen the live performance of Fleetwood Mac in their reunion? Yeah. The greatest moment of all time. The greatest moment of all time. When she screams her anger in his face. So Stevie Nicks is singing this song and she's just singing it right into Lindsey Buckingham's face.

Into his face. Because it's about him. I'll follow you down and I'll haunt you. I will haunt you. I will haunt you. The sound of my voice will haunt you forever. And he's like... And she's like, no, no, no. I'm going to say it again. I am currently casting a hex on your face. It's incredible. You got...

Google it. With my talent, with my anger. Yeah. So I like, I mean, you know, I made the room watch it. I talked to the Lopez's about it. I was like, this is what we're doing because I believe I saw a witch. Like every time I watched that clip, I'm like, that's,

Well, she was known as the White Witch. That's what I think they called her, the White Witch. She's what she is still on the planet. She's somewhere. Praise Steve, don't come at me. And so that was sort of in the document was like a thing that I'm like, this is a dream. If we can integrate this in a way that makes sense, let's do that.

We didn't know The Witch's Road. That was a missing piece, which is, that's something I call the container. I, like, I need a container. And... Go into that a little more, like, as a practical tip. Yeah. So I'm relatively new to television. I'm more of a feature person. And what I find, like, enchanting about TV and also kind of, like, terrifying is that it can go in a million directions. And how do you organize your episodes? And what makes sense to me, and I also love nonlinear storytelling, but

what do you hang on to? So the container for me is the thing that holds it all together. So in WandaVision, the container is the hex. She created this hex. We made all the rules to the hex. We made all the limitations of it and how it works and how she has to understand it. And we had a vocabulary for what the different things were. We called them weirdnesses when something odd would happen. And on the page, when we were in sitcom mode,

like the page would look normal. And then when we were stepping out, it would be italicized and have some bold in it. Like it was just, it needed to be organized in that way. And so that was my first time working with what I call the container. And so then for Agatha, I knew her character inside and out. I knew this was the story of a liar and that the point A to point B was she's a liar. We get to see her truth.

And I knew we were doing her and Billy and what that journey was and what it meant. But I didn't know, like, where were they going to be? Right. How do we justify? What are we supposed to write? Yeah. Like, what's the world? And how do we make it big enough for people?

for the show, but contained enough where it doesn't fly off into outer space. So the road became that thing. Now, one of the challenges you're facing as you're coming up on Agatha, which is after WandaVision, we sort of have an expectation of what Agatha all along is going to be like. And so you know that...

each episode has to do certain things but the audience is going to have a discussion and an expectation of like oh this is this thing this is this thing how much as you were putting together episodes were you trying to anticipate this is what the internet is going to think is happening next and here's how we honor that stay ahead of that use that to our advantage yeah I

I don't really think about it like the internet. I think about it, I'm constantly thinking about an audience's experience because what I want more than anything is I want that gasp. That like the moment where your brain starts to anticipate, oh my God, is that what's happening? And that it is, and you were right. And oh my God, and that thrill of that. And then I'm also, you know, I also want everyone to laugh and it's great when people cry and it's great when people sing, but like that sort of thrill of,

That makes you lean forward. And so what I wanted with this one, like it was so exciting when we hatched Megan McDonald, McDonald's here. And she was with the, one of the writers on, on episode four in, in WandaVision that episode four, where we stepped out of the, the sitcom. And one of the things that I loved about, I'm talking a lot about WandaVision because they're, they're, they're, they're, they're,

But like I sort of diagnosed for myself that a sitcom lulls you, that you get into this like place of comfort. And I can like, I can count on one hand the times when a sitcom deviated and how distressing that was and how it made me like, like in Growing Pains when Carol Seaver's boyfriend died, played by Matthew Perry. Yeah. And I was like, I'm going to throw up. Like this is not supposed to happen in this world. And so I,

the idea that we could lull the audience three episodes of like, we're moving through time and we're like, we're good. It's an episode style each time. And like, right. You feel, this feels good. This feels good. People in a rut. Yeah. And then episode four would be like, just kidding. We're back in the MCU. We're with a different character. We're like in back in time.

And so I wanted to do that again, but I was like, well, we can't do it in episode four. So we did an episode six and I tried to bundle it with the mystery of this team. So this time when we get our step out bottle episode and we're backfilling, we're getting like so much more information that the audience has been craving. So it's sort of, if that answers your question. Absolutely. So you're really thinking about how do you make,

episode by episode so rewarding for the audience that they're going to, they're desperate to see the next episode. Yeah. And you and Craig both have the luxury or not, like the way TV should be made, which is that week by week, there's that weekly anticipation of the next episode that, you know, now somebody can stream it all at once, but,

if they're watching it in the real time, they're part of a cultural moment trying to figure out what's happening next. Right. And I love the theories. I mean, they make me really sick and keep me up at night. But like... I... Like, that kind of audience engagement is... I mean, it's incredible. Well, when you... Do you ever have that moment where you're looking through some stuff and... And it's a better idea than I had? No. It happens a lot. That's actually never happened to me. But...

People are trying to figure out like, this is what's going to happen. This is what's going to happen. And the more sure they are, the wrong are there. And then one sort of random person says literally everything correct. Tiny little voice. They don't even get told no. They're just ignored. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, you, screenwriter. I know. Yes. I wish I could think of an example. I want to like rescue them, you know? I know. I want to be like,

Oh, I see you. Yeah. You got it. So smart. It was like a guy that was like, here's how I think every episode is going to start and finish in season one of the last us nailed it. Yeah. Nailed it. I was like, God. Yeah. And everyone's like, shut up. There's this incredible TikToker and it's terrible that I don't know her name. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, please shout her name. She's really great. And she did a hilarious video. Can I, I can swear and say, yeah, great. Um,

It's fucking Christmas. She did this hilarious fucking thing where she was talking about, like, she was like, what kind of, like, cunty theater kid queen made The Witch's Road? Like, ooh, the trial is we got to down a bottle of Merlot. Like, oh, we've got to, like,

all like perform like Fleetwood Mac like we gotta get together and be a band and she was like who's the queen doing this and it's Billy Maximoff yeah yeah

We saw that. I sent it to the room and I was like, this is too delicious. I hope she feels rad when she realizes that she was right all along. Gorgeous. Let's talk about your room. Let's talk about the room and sort of who you assembled and sort of why you pick the writers you pick. Obviously, you have that first session where they're getting this document and your goals and plans for it. But how do you like to run a room? What does a room look like to you?

I love assembling a room. I love running a room. Like I had no idea that this was, like I wanted to direct and it turns out I wanted to be a showrunner. Like the working with a team of brains who are also like awesome, fun, smart, funny, great people. Like it's just the best. It's so great. Don't tell my children. And I'm like, nope.

Greatest joy of my life is working in the restroom. When I was doing WandaVision, I was terrified and I got some really good advice. And one of them was my friend Chris Addison told me that it's not my job to have the best idea in the room. It's my job to be the keeper of the vision. And I was like, I can totally do that. And so I look for idea machines. I look for people who just...

crazy thoughts. But I have sort of slots. So on Agatha, there were some, like first of all, there were some POVs that I needed to service that I could not do myself. So that was crucial. I had chairs for those perspectives and that was going to be vital. And then there were people that I knew from WandaVision were really suited to this spinoff show that was quite different from WandaVision. It had a different sensibility, it

Um, and so it was about sort of bringing the people that I already knew who had the right dimensions to them. I mean, when I look at a room, the first thing is that the people need to be kind and respectful. Like that's always where I start. Cause I personally can't work if there's tension or disrespect or anything unpleasant like that. Um, and it also has to be fun. Um,

But when I read scripts, what I look for, like specs and stuff, is I look for audacious ideas. And I don't care if people can stick the landing. Like, I don't care if, like, the end sort of, like, comes apart as long as it was, like...

Like you gave a shot. It's really the like, what is the like weirdest thing that someone tried really hard to have it hold water on the page? Bravery. Yeah. Yeah. And like I hired Giovanna Sarkis on, on, on Agatha because she,

She had a character in her spec who was a mother and I believed the mother. And Giovanna is a younger woman. She doesn't have children. And I was like, how did she write this middle-aged mom in a way that felt raw? Yeah.

So it's about that. And it's like once I have, like I hired Jason Rostovsky and he is like a goth horror guy. And so I was like, I've nailed that piece. So then when I'm looking at the other chairs, like that's covered. So what do I need over here? It's like, it's a toolbox. Yeah. Yeah. It's so fun. Awesome. Yeah. Do we have time for one more question? One more question. One real fast one. Just talk a little bit about the challenges of protagonizing someone because-

Agatha wasn't the protagonist. Yeah. And now she's sort of. Yeah. Well, clearly. I mean, she's the protagonist of her own story. How do you, like, how do you protagonist a character in such a way that doesn't kind of negate what came before? Yeah. Because side characters are fun and villains are fun and they're not accountable the way that protagonists are. Yeah. First of all, thank you for not asking how do you make a character like Agatha likable?

Fuck that. The worst notedness. We've talked about that before. Of course, as a writer, you would never say that. Protagonize someone. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't hard because Catherine had brought so much to the role of Agatha, so much more than was on the page for WandaVision. Like we were like, okay, she's Mrs. Roper and she's Rhoda and she's all these other things. She can do that. Catherine can do that in her sleep.

And then we wanted her to be this like scenery chewing centuries old witch. And we're like, Catherine can do that as well. But Catherine brought all this texture about what she really wanted, what Agatha wanted.

And so to protagonize, to use your awesome word, this character into her own show, it was following those threads. It was kind of already like raring to get out and do it. And also, you know, in film school, the like want versus need, I always had a hard time with that. But

Agatha, it's like so clear. She wants power. She needs community, like end of story. And so that's really what led to the thrust of the show or the like kickoff is like the most hated, which has to form a coven. You have the longest runway. Great. So yeah. Love that.

All right. I think it's time for your game, Craig. So talk us through what we want to do here. Oh, boy. Here we go. Okay. First off, we need to bring up two very special guests. Yeah, we got to get some guests going. So this is, holidays are a time for family. So let's bring back some Script Notes family here. Two former producers of the Script Notes podcast, Megan McDonald and Meghana Rao. Can you guys come up? Meghana, Meghana. Meghana.

Megan, is it true that you just flew back from India literally just to be in this game? I was in India. You literally just got on a plane. Yes. To be here. Thank you. Yes. For my game? Clearly not the case. I am hours off of a plane, so I also want to put that out there. Excellent. Absolutely. All right. So do you guys enjoy, these are Christmas songs we're doing? Yeah. All right. Do you guys enjoy Christmas songs?

Well, definitely not. So, Megan McDonald, do you know what Christmas is? I love a Christmas song. Megan McDonald is Christmas. She's Christmas. Let's be clear. She's Christmas. Do we get to be on the same team? You're all one team? Everybody's, you can be on the team too. Back here, let's switch seats. Okay, fantastic. As you guys know, every now and again, John and I like to do a three-page challenge.

Today we're going to be doing a little Christmas song game. And of course, because we're writers, I like to concentrate on lyrics. We're going to be doing a Christmas song three-word challenge. Here's how it goes. I have picked the strangest three words I could find in a Christmas song. They're in a row. They're not random. So for instance, if they were Deck the Halls, it might be Bows of Holly. And then you go, oh, it's Deck the Halls. So that's it. I'm just going to give you three words.

You have to tell me the Christmas song. If you know it out there, don't shout it out. Just raise your hand. Do we shout it out? Or we have confirmed? You can confer. You guys can do anything you want. You can shout. You can confer. Let's start with this one. Every Mother's Child. Shout. Here we go. Every mother.

It's a child. Oh. Every mother's child. This is awesome. Every mother's child. Does anyone out there know? I'll be calling for Chris. No, that's... No. No, no, sorry. That wasn't an official guest. Oh, oh. What about... Someone's ready to go on the front row. It's in... Okay. Okay.

No, sorry, that wasn't it. No, no. This show is only like, it's not five days long. So not qualified. I can almost hear it. The Christmas song? Yes, the Christmas song, Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire. And every mother's child is going to spy to see if reindeer really know how to fly. Oh, wow.

All right. See? It's hard. It's hard. Now for this guy. Ready? How about this one, you ding-dongs? I love this one because this one really speaks to me. How you'll hate. How you'll hate. How you'll hate. Can we do Christmas movies? No. I love saying no like Hannibal Lecter. No. How you'll hate to come in from the snow or

Yeah, you're very close. How you'll hate going out in the storm. Maybe it's cold outside? It's, well, that's part, no, it's not. But if you really hold me tight all the way home, you'll be warm. Yes. Are you from Australia? Oh, great. I thought I heard let it snore. Okay. Let it snow, all right. It is. It was let it snow. Okay. A platinum mine explosion.

Santa Baby. Yes, Santa Baby. You're so good at this. Okay, we're cooking now. All right, this one's weird. I don't know why this isn't a Christmas song at all. This one speaks to you, Jack.

Scary ghost stories. Scary ghost stories. Is that it? Tales of the Glories of Christmas. What is the song? Yes, yes, yes. It's not my favorite thing. It's the most wonderful time of the year. Yes, it's the most wonderful time of the year. This turned into, name that tune, but like with so many notes. The Kids Bunch.

The kids bunch. The kids bunch. So the kids bunch up, I assume. You know how kids like to bunch up? The kids bunch. I like the analysis. Anyone? Silver bells. Yes, it's silver bells. Nice. See the kids bunch. This is Santa's big scene. All right. I told you, the three weird, this one you'll get. Okay. The treetops glisten.

Oh my God. You just said she was the, yes. Keep going. And children listen to hear sleigh bells in the snow. I'm dreaming of White Christmas. Yes, you are. White Christmas. If you don't get this one, I'm going to lose my mind. Do you recall? I got it. I got one. Some pumpkin pie?

It's hard. You got it. You got it. It's close. It's close. Nope. Nope. Maybe some pop. Maybe some. Yes, it is. Rocking around the Christmas tree. All right. All right. Two more. You didn't hear. I saw, I saw. Oh God. We're going to turn to the audience.

You didn't hear. You didn't hear. And in case you didn't hear. Oh, by golly, I'm a holly. Yes, I'm a holly jolly Christmas. These are all the same song, right? Yeah. They are not. Last one. Last one. All right. Then I'm going to ask a trivia question that connects them all. I know. A circus clown.

Yes. Then I will pretend that he is Parson Brown. It's Frosty the Wimp. Yes, yes. No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, it is. No, it's not Frosty the Wimp. We'll pretend that he's a circus clown.

Yeah. It's not called Frosty the Snowman. We'll last about with Mr. Snowman until the other kitties knock him down. Does that sound like Frosty the Snowman to you? No. Winter Wonderland. Yes, you're walking in a winter wonderland. Wow, you're so right. It was a snowman. A snowman is a clown, to be clear. I was so certain. No.

All of these are linked by one commonality that isn't that they're about Christmas. I'm going to read the names again. See if you can tell. If you know in the audience, raise your hand. You ready? Maybe they already know. The Christmas song, Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire.

Let It Snow, Santa Baby, It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year, Silver Bells, White Christmas, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree, Holly Jolly Christmas, Walking in a Winter Wonderland. They were all written for movies. No. All right. That was a great guess. I'll give you a hint. The answer begins with they were all written. Same composer. No. Same year. No. No.

We have a guess. They're all written by Jews? Yes! Yay! They were all written by Jews. You're welcome. Great job. Great job. Well done. Front row crushing it out here.

Thanks for playing, Art. And you guys did great. We did, yeah. Phenomenal, phenomenal. You did great. All contributed equally. Megadon, Megan, Jack, thank you so much. Thank you. I love how scared you were. They were all written by Drew. Because if you're wrong, that's what? What? Jeez. The fuck, man?

Who are we letting in? I will say as a non-Jewish person, saying the word Jew just by itself is always a little terrifying to me. I'll give you a pass. Yeah, all right.

All right, let's move on with our show. Our next guests have been working together as writers, directors, and actors for almost a decade, making dozens of shorts, web series, three feature films for YouTube. Now they are in one of my favorite shows of the whole year, English Teacher. Please welcome its creator, Brian Jordan Alvarez, and its co-writer and co-star, Stephanie Koenig. Thank you.

Thanks for bringing the chairs and couches from my living room. Yeah. Thanks for bringing the chairs and couches in general. We didn't want to have to bring these ourselves. We try to keep our guests comfortable if possible. Could you hear backstage? Could you identify any of the lyrics in that song? Yes. Wait, what song? Wait, no.

The Christmas songs. The Christmas songs. Do you do them? Yeah, we picked a couple. I just had a couple. You should have said you got them all. Yeah. You had an opportunity. No, I think I really only got one. Oh. I was singing it and then I like had to sing the whole thing to get to the refrain. It's hard because every Christmas song does have like three weird fucking words in there all just for no reason. Yeah. And I went right for it. What was the common thread between all of them? They were all written by Jews. Oh.

Yeah. Wow. You didn't believe me. I don't know how to react to this. See, I didn't eat it, Ryan. Are you angry? No, I just don't want to have the... I don't know if you're kidding. I swear to God, I'm not kidding. They were all written by Jews. And apparently John gets nervous when I say Jew. No, when you say Jew, it's great. It's when I say it that it feels so bad. Well, because you yell it. Yeah.

Let's talk about English teacher. So Brian and Stephanie, so in this award season, we're seeing a lot of like co-stars who will come on and do interviews for things. And like, they're just like the best of friends when they're on camera and the cameras are rolling. And you're always like, do they actually like each other whatsoever? Now the two of you are genuinely friends in real life. Is that true? You guys have known each other for a minute.

A long time. Yeah. 11 years. It's a lot of years now. Going on 12, I think. That's crazy. Yeah. We hang out all the time. Yeah. We hang out all the time. That's not convincing. We hang out all the time. We're best friends. Because we hang out some too, but we also work together. We do. And we have to do stuff together. Yeah.

How do you guys manage the relationship of being friends but also co-workers who are doing stuff together? Are there tensions? What are things you guys have learned over the years making so many things together about keeping your friendship but also a professional relationship? I don't think it's been very hard. Sometimes we focus on making sure the friendship is primary. If ever we need a reminder, it's just like, well, the friendship is more important.

Correct. But the work is all, I mean, it's, I mean, she's so, it's like a privilege. It's all the same. It feels all the same. Yeah, it's all the same thing. Well, because we, when we first met, we met at a, like a student short film. Yeah, we were like the adults in a UC Santa Barbara. Yeah, we were like the sort of lame hired actors in a student film. But yeah, we really had not much happening. We didn't have anything going on. It sounds great. Yeah.

Her commercial agent was in the process of dropping her. Yeah, I think she had just sent the email out. Yeah, and I don't think I had representation at all. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I remember the first day on set, we were, like, making jokes about getting dropped. What was the joke? It was something like, whenever you're, yeah, like, listen, we think you're great. Like, if there's at any point you get funnier or, you know, if you're getting prettier, like, reach back out.

Yeah. You were pretending that you were your agent talking to you and I was being you. Yeah. And you were saying like, we just, we're dropping you because we just have so many people who are better and better looking. Yeah. Yeah.

You had said the only way we're going to actually, because you meet like friends when you're an adult. It's like you have to really try. You have to find an excuse to keep getting together. Yes, exactly. And he was like, we should make something to keep hanging out. Yeah. So then we like worked on a short that then we didn't end up.

finishing but then we started making sketches yes but the first night I met her I was like so this is the funniest person in the known universe that's what I thought about you yeah thank you but we've gotten less funny over time still supporting each other yeah I'm now the funniest person in Sherman Oaks

Still, that's legit. It's big. But I think we talk about it on the podcast a lot is we'll have listeners write in saying like, oh, like, what should I do? I need to break in. And we tell people like make stuff and you guys just made stuff. You've made so many things. I know. And so like if you look through like your YouTube, you guys are just

You made a song about sitting. I know, I did. And I'm doing it right now. Crushing it. Oh my God. I know this thing of like telling people just go out and make your own thing. I keep wondering if there's ever going to be some new answer to how to break it. Because that's been the real answer for the last like 15 years, you know. I mean, I think we got lucky because, or maybe we weren't even at the very beginning of this, but

you know, there was a time when you, you had to spend a hundred thousand dollars to get a movie made yourself in 1990 or whatever. Right. And then there was the time when you were like, people have these cameras that they thought were good digital cameras. I think they were Panasonic's and they'd be like, cause it's big. And be like, Oh yeah, we're shooting an indie on this thing. And I'd be like, that looks like,

shit. Like it looked like a handy cam, you know, I was like, that's not, I don't know. So we, we, we ended up coming to, into being able to make stuff at a time when even very specifically camera wise, we were shooting our sketches on the black magic pocket that had a really cinematic look. And I had an eye for this stuff, but like the,

The tech was just – and it was also when YouTube was just a few years old. And so you could post something that really looked a bit like a movie on your YouTube channel and then that's global for anybody who wants to watch it. So yeah, I mean I guess whenever you come up, you're finding how to make it work and we would have done that in any era I think. But yeah, I think we were lucky in some ways. What was –

was your YouTube channel was sort of like a network of your stuff. And so I would put... Yeah, later when I started gaining steam. Yeah, later, yeah. But it was just nice to go, okay, well, I'm going to make something for us and put it on your channel. And I know that there's going to be...

Yeah, yeah. Because you made this amazing movie, Spy Movie, that was like us as spies. And it was like a full feature. And then we put it on the YouTube channel and people loved it. Yeah. That's great. So talk to us about the transition between you're making stuff for yourself versus making stuff for other people. Because you both, as actors, went off and did other things. You managed to steal so many scenes on Will & Grace in ways that were just absolutely criminal. I still have them in my house.

yeah that's great took the scenes with you no yeah I'm very grateful to Max Muchnick and Stephanie you were doing other stuff too but was it hard to think about like okay we also need to do some stuff together like how do you

As you're going off and doing your own things and having your own successes, you still want to do stuff together. Is that hard to find those balances? It's so organic. Yes. It's just coming out of like how much fun it is to make stuff. Yeah. Like spy movie was just like, oh, wouldn't that be so funny if we were two dumb spies? Yeah. Dumb. In terms of that sense of this feels natural, I'm curious...

When it comes to your show, were you guys kind of just feeling like, hey, we're adults now. Uh-huh. And we're, who are these children and what are they about? Because what I find so fascinating about the show is that it's normally high school shows are about the kids. And this one is not. This is fascinating to me. Right. Well, we need it to be the leads. Yeah.

We needed the lead roles. That's actually a great fucking answer. Yeah. Ask a fancy question. You're like, idiot, we need to be leads. No, I mean, maybe it's more organic. I unfortunately don't put a ton of analytical thought into most of the things I'm making before I make them. And then, you know, as they grow, they end up becoming smarter and deeper maybe. But really, I was like...

You know, this felt like an environment that would make sense. And it was also just Paul Sims, you know, who's a genius and is TV royalty and has made so many amazing things. He essentially cold called me through my agent because he had seen my stuff online. And he was like, we need to make...

take a TV show together. I did Atlanta with Donald Glover, you know, I'm doing what we do in the shadows. He's done a million things. He's amazing. And it was also a little bit fortunately in a moment, or I don't know if it was fortunate, but it was in a moment when I had given up on making things in the system. And I was really focused on acting. I was saying, look, I just came off Will and Grace. I'm doing this movie, Megan coming up.

And at that time, I had booked a role with Megan. Then they changed the part to... I'm just kidding. But... Megan, you guys know Megan? That would have been better. Yeah. But...

But no, but Paul was like, we need to make a show. And I was like, oh, I don't think I can. I've tried before. I don't know how to get through that TV system. And he was like, I'm going to show you. You're coming out of retirement. We're making a television show. And it was like this moment when, you know, someone comes down from heaven and is like, I believe in you, you know? And so then it's literally like,

oh my God, I got to write something. So then I just like, was like, I don't know, I'm like a teacher at a high school and you know, Stephanie's there and we're, you know, at lunch. Like, really, it was like that, you know. And what did he show you in terms of, okay, so you had had some experiences as a writer, you mean, trying to work the system. We'd had a few developments. Yeah, exactly. And it was,

like a lot of shows that we were both in. We were like trying to make a show specifically where we were always kind of including each other. Yeah, able to do our thing. And you were getting frustrated as you went through. I mean, they just didn't end up getting made. It wasn't any more frustrating than anything. So talk to us about it. What did Paul Simmons bring into the process that was new to you, that was different to you? Everything. Every part of it was completely foreign to me. I was just like used to doing everything by myself and just with my friends. So

there was any kind of like somebody being like, we think you should do this instead. I was like, this feels insane. And then like, Paul's like, it's okay. You're going to survive basically. And it's like, why don't you just try doing it? And maybe it'll work. And then I would be like, Oh,

Right. And then it's like, and then the show gets better. And then eventually you're like, this show is way better than anything I could have made by myself. What the hell happened here? You know? And yeah, it's just, but it's also, I get lucky because it's like, it's not just anybody who's giving you, it's like Paul, it's like really intelligent people. Jonathan Kreisel. Kreisel, John Landgraf, like these are the best of the best. So they're changing your show very gently. They're still preserving the whole DNA.

golden fiber at the center of your show. And this is what people say to me when they see it now, having known my work for years, they go...

They go, oh my God, your voice survived. Like your voice actually got on TV. And I, and that is to their credit because they know how to make it better and better, but to not break that spirit at the center of it. So, but what I'm saying is like, you know, some places would have made my show worse, but this show, I look at it and I go, this is infinitely better than, than what I started with. And, and it's, you know, it's John Landgraf, Kate Lambert, Jonathan Frank, Paul Sims, Jonathan Kreisel, even our line producer, Kate Dean, like,

Yeah, Dave King, like this just high level help of people that have made 20 shows, you know, and just know, they just know what's good. Paul, especially Paul, I was with him the other day. I was just realizing, I was like, this guy can see story. You know, I once heard of a DP who like could just see light in a different way. He can just see what light is doing. And Paul can just see story through everything, you know.

Yeah. And this is like a separate thing, but to see Brian, because I had worked with him so much on our little sets where we're putting iPhones in our bras and strapping these bandages around our bellies. Yeah, for a lot of Lear mics, we would use iPhones with ace bandages. To save on not hiring...

any sound guy. We didn't have any money. Save the money we didn't have. Yeah. And just like rigging the lights and bringing all the gear and setting up the camera, all that stuff. It was so cool to like watch a hundred people do all of that for, especially on like the stuff that Brian was doing.

directing because he's also show running as well. So, but it wasn't weird. It wasn't like a different, it felt exactly the same, but he wasn't having to carry anything. That was the thing about making stuff ourselves for so long is literally it's the hauling, the equipment here. It's a little better. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't have to remember what they're like, Oh God, I feed them. I feed everybody. Yeah.

So we talk about your voice surviving through the process, and one of the things about the Evan character, which is so wonderful, is that we see him taking a stand and then realizing that his stand is sort of indefensible, or he doesn't actually... He wants to be the person who fully believes what he's... Are you talking about a specific episode or in general?

The gun episode is one of the examples. But also when a kid comes in and says, comes out to you, what should I do? This is not my experience. Go be gay out there. This is pretty awesome. Talk to us about those moments and figuring them out on the page, figuring them out on the pitch to the page to how they go through because it's your voice and you have to say, this will work in my voice

Talk to us about that. Well, we just, we have a great writer's room there. I mean, it's a really specific group, you know, and it came together very slowly. And I even remember saying to Paul, like, there are these two guys that write on shadows and,

And I keep seeing their tweets and it's Zach Dunn and Jake Bender. And Paul was like, oh, that's funny. They were asking about if they would maybe be able to come write on English Teacher With You. So it just came together really organically over time. But essentially we have a great writer's room and we build these stories that I am just – that I love and that have this –

real funny bone. And then beyond that, with the execution, and this comes to Chrysal, Jonathan Chrysal too, the execution is where it gets all that flavor. But it's in the writing too. I talk a lot about texture. One thing that we're good at is this texture of the show, the way people talk over each other and the way people are...

reacting to each other. And so I just think it's all of that. It's like we're writing the best stories we can, but then when we're on set, we're trying to figure out right then how to make it funnier. And we do it a lot of different ways. Like we're really, we trust our editors, Antonia DeBarros and Mike Giambra.

They love us sending as many options as we can. So I'll do a take where I'm going huge and I'll do a take where I barely move my face and I'll do a take that's like somewhere in the middle. And then we'll do a take that's almost, you know, I'll tell them, okay, now say anything you want, you know, do one that's like, but it doesn't have to be all improv, but just anything you want to say, like, we've got the camera on you. So just go for it, you know? And then some that are perfectly descript and yeah.

And to talk about that scene where the kid is asking for his advice on being gay and he thinks he wants to come out and stuff, I think...

He's really good at this, which I've noticed in like our sketches. Yeah, he never makes, he knows how to use the apostrophes. And so there's a lot of apostrophes in that monologue. Unnecessary. Yeah. But no, it's like the surprising turns, the left turns that he takes really well in comedies and what makes us laugh so hard. Yeah, because that's what we were doing in our sketches too, was sort of being like, you expect this joke and then boom, it does this other thing. Yeah.

Yeah. So I think that's what the show does so well is you're like, you're getting led into something and then it like takes left turn. I think to do that as well as you guys do, you do need to kind of be in touch with the world around you in a very real way because that tonally, that can go on, right? Like that can, it can, the same concept could be incredibly not funny and sort of upsetting. Exactly. In that case. You know what I think the secret sauce is to that, to this exact thing you're talking about? I think it's the acting. Oh,

Oh, yeah. Maybe I shouldn't say that. You're saying you're a good actor. Me and everybody else on the show. No, I mean, real playing things...

hyper real grounded you sell it's it's amazing writing and then and then you have to have really good not just good acting like oscar-winning actors just acting that knows how to make that joke ripe you know i say this because i'm not talking about my own performance i'm saying like

We really care about the acting on our show. And we talk about it and we direct it. And we need the performances to be a certain way to sell that joke. So that moment specifically when a kid says...

I'm gay. And then the camera turns around. I'm like, what? Just go talk to somebody in the hall about this. I can't help you with this. It's like, it's a, yeah, it's an acting thing. And the kid, the kid performing it really real. Like there's this character in this field trip episode, Sharon, like we call her like stone face mom, right? She's obsessed with these games that these kids are playing and her acting is

is so brilliant. And we saw all these different tapes for it and everybody was being funny and playing the joke. And then we got her tape and she was playing it like it was like an Oscar movie where like this was the most serious thing that's ever happened. And she's like, have you heard about these games that these kids are playing? We were all like obsessed, obsessively watching the tape. I mean, it's only the final piece on An Amazing Joke, but it's another critical piece, you know? And I think it's something, Jonathan Kreisel also really cares about acting. If you watch Baskets,

The acting in that is just hyper-natural. Very much so. What's the name of the person who played the mom in that? Oh, Louis Anderson. Yeah, it's so natural and that's what we're going for. And even telling the editors, pick the little things where people say things wrong or stumble on their words and make people talk over each other. Like in reality, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a testament to you guys how technically good you are and I know that you're saying you sort of like

almost stumbled into this situation and somebody plucks you out from the things you do. But you have to be very, very smart to come. It needs the smartest people. The attention to detail and how serious you have to be about being funny, it's kind of incredible. It really shows. And it is also just in the writer's room, we are like...

dying laughing dying laughing so like it's probably most writers rooms for comedies it's like the joke that keeps making us laugh like will stick in the episode we're like god that still makes us laugh so hard yeah talk us through the process of you know getting a half hour script out of this so in that writers room you're coming up with the outline you're coming up with the beat so this is what's basically gonna happen these are the scenes

One person goes off and writes and brings back a script and then you're workshopping it or what happens? Oh, we're in the nitty gritty. Oh yeah, this is the podcast where we talk about the nitty gritty. Okay, yeah, I mean, do we tell you our problems? We're beating out the story as a group and then generally we're sending somebody off to outline and the outline is, you know, it's an outline but it's relatively detailed and then somebody goes off to script. Is the outline funny? Yes. Ideally, yeah. Okay.

Yes. Yeah. Like Stephanie's outline was so funny. Yeah. Yeah. I would say the outline is not as funny as the final script. I would hope. The outline's not full of dialogue and the dialogue is a large part of also what's funny. Very true. But yeah, I mean, yeah, each part being as funny as possible is certainly ideal.

What I loved so much was it felt so... I felt going off and writing Powderpuff, I was like so taken care of by the story because we had really broken it. Right, right. And we do that with each episode. We would like really all together like break the funniest thing in this scene. Yeah, I often think going off to script is...

one of the least labor intensive parts because the outline is so then you're just dancing on the outline you know but yeah we yeah it's like it feels all easy yeah making a TV show is easy is what I'm taking this yeah so easy why are you guys doing it come on we just have we have all the best writers yeah because it's like the best it's like the funniest people yeah Dave King, Zach Dunn, Jake Bender, Emmy Blotnick, Shayna

Good stuff. Jeremy and Rajat. You guys heard of Jeremy and Rajat? Some people do. These guys know literally everything. These three guys know everything about everything. Geniuses. They should be hosting the podcast. Geniuses. Congratulations on your show. We cannot wait to see what you guys do next. Thank you for having us. This is the time of the podcast where we do one cool thing. Things we want to recommend to our listeners at home, to our audience here tonight.

starts off, because you warned that you might have two one cool things. Oh, I just really, I've been sweating this for the 24 hours that I knew we had to do this. I already feel like I'm failing. The thing I am recommending to everybody is the English teacher. Aww. Aww. But in lieu of that, because everybody here's a fan, um,

I really loved My Old Ass. I don't know if anyone has seen that. Oh, yes, yes. I think that movie is spectacular. And I think it's a Thanksgiving movie. I think it's about gratitude. I saw it over Thanksgiving. I did a lot of crying. Aubrey is fantastic in it. And then just to be weird, I'm also going to do a song that is an obsession of mine from...

from Billy Joel's lesser worshipped era, Downeaster Alexa. Does anybody know that song? It is a song that really inspires me to write because I feel it's very atmospheric and it's very rousing and it conjures a place and a person and it's very salty. And yeah, it's an inspiring piece of pop music. It is Billy Joel's finest nautical themed song. That is correct. No question. No question. So a little weird. Excellent. Yeah.

Fantastic. Hey, Brian, do you have one cool thing to share with us? I started watching the Netflix reality show about people over 50 dating each other called Later Daters. That's a very good title. It was excellent. I recommend it. There's one woman in it who's a total star. Excellent. Yeah.

Yeah. Nice. You love reality TV so much. I don't like that we're in a category that's called later. Yeah, absolutely. That's fucked up. We're married. We're married, but if we did date, it would be like, we should make a reality show out of you. That's freaky. Stephanie, what do you have to recommend? Wait, can I do two too? Of course you can do two. Okay, one's a quick one. It's like get yourself a sun lamp. And it's one of those lamps that,

kind of that same warm lighting that was glazed over you guys. You mean like a full spectrum? It's a yellow, that. So you can have that in your room and you like, at night, you're like, oh God. Like it just, it just like takes you to a good place. And then real quick, I would say I suggest escape rooms for dating. Yeah. Just a couple, like go take one other person that you're dating to an escape room. Especially if you're over 50. We got a book. Yeah.

Hell yeah. Stephanie, that is such a good idea. So tell us more because it feels like it reveals something about a person that we'd like, oh. Because we love escape rooms. Do you? We love it. We do escape rooms all the time. Okay, well. So we're doing some escape rooms after this. Okay. Really? Oh, yeah. The reason I got the idea is because me and my husband will do that. It's like, do you want to go out to dinner? No. We're going to go to an escape room. How many of you guys have done anything? 25? Oh, my God. 25? 60? 60? Oh.

I mean, I don't even think they have that many. We're in triple digits for sure. Do you do it with strangers? That sounds weird. No. No, in the early days, that was like an issue. In the early days, they were like, we got to shove 12 people in, but no one does it anymore. You can do it by yourself. You do it just you and a date? Yes. With a friend or someone you love or somebody you might love. Yeah.

But it does tell a lot about a person. Yes. Are they dumb, for instance? That? That? Yeah. Or how do they take... If you're a really competitive person, it's like you may want another competitive person who's like, this is serious. I don't want any hints. And that'll be for you. Or it's like, I want...

Like you could really suss somebody out if they're really upset about you not getting something right. Like if there was a fight in the escape room, it's like you're done. Wouldn't the worst person be somebody that is just like, what is this even matter? Yes. State over. Yes. Over. I'd be like, get out. Let me finish it. Get out. Yeah, exactly. Go home. Yeah. I need to escape. I need to do Welcome to Jumanji alone. That's a good one. That's one of them. That's a good one. Craig, what you got? Amazing.

My one cool thing, Thin Mint Bites. Have you had these? No, tell us. Oh my God. All right. So Thin Mints. Yeah, delicious. Girl Scouts in combination with Satan. So-

I always thought that like the thing about Thin Mints that are so good is like the crunchy bit, but there's just not enough crunchy bit. And then these bastards came up with a way to like turn it into this little tiny ball. And it's all crunch with just a little bit of the chocolate on the outside. And you feel like, oh, I'm just eating one. And then it's like blah, blah, blah, blah. And they've perfected something that I thought was perfect. Christmas time, guys.

Thin Mint Bites. Thin Mint Bites. Fantastic. Excellent. My recommendation, one cool thing, it's also very good for Christmas time. It is a show, it's like number two on Netflix, so I'm not the first person to discover the show. It is A Man on the Inside. It is a show by Mike Schur, who's been on the podcast. He did Parks and Rec. He did

The Good Place. You'll see our own Megan Amrams on the show. Yep. Small part. So it stars Ted Danson. He's a guy who is a retired professor who's being sent undercover into a retirement home. It is really light and it's just delightful. But then because it's so light, it's like a sitcom. It's able to hit some surprisingly serious themes of mortality and just...

losing your sense of autonomy. Really well done. And I say Christmas time because it's actually a show you can put on with your extended family who don't like each other and you can all watch the same thing and no one will object to it. And it's nice to have TV that is just a common experience for everyone. So A Man on the Inside on Netflix. Amazing. That's a great rack. All right, it is time for our thank yous.

Scriptness is produced by Drew Marquardt. Drew Marquardt, thank you so much. Thank you, Drew. It is edited by Matthew Cialelli, who also wrote our music tonight. You can find the show notes for this episode and all episodes at johnox.com. That's also where we find all the transcripts going back 12 years. We'll have lots of links to things that we talked about tonight, including your shorts and all the other stuff that you guys have done. We have t-shirts and hoodies. They make great Christmas presents.

You can sign up to become a premium member at scriptnotes.net where you get all those back episodes and bonus segments. Thank you to all our premium members. Do we have any premium members in the house tonight? Oh my God, look at that. So good. Thank you guys. Premium members also get first notice about live events like we're doing tonight. Thank you to Brian Jordan-Oliveres, to Stephanie Koenig, to Jack Shaver. Thank you, thank you, thank you guys. Do you want to do this guy?

Sure, and thank you to Casey Anderson and everyone at Hollywood Heart. And remember, you can learn more about their programs at hollywoodheart.org. Also, thank you to Dax Jordan and everyone in the booth. Yay! Thank you to Missy Steele, Mary Sadler, and everyone at Dynasty Typewriter. And thank you to all of you. It is so much fun to get to do this live. Thank you guys for showing up and making us feel welcome. Thank you so much. You too. Have a great night. Have a great night.

♪