WCI #396: Financial Planning For Special Needs Kids with Dr. Bryan Jepson
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I can apply. Welcome back to the podcast. Hope your well this winter season to december already, I hope you're taking care of in the end of your financial planning items you might have, you know, max retirement accounts. I hope you've opened up all the accounts you need to. If not, this can be a big rush before the end of the year.

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We have a really great discussion today. I've got brian jepson coming on here, which I learned after we finish the interview, I have a lot more connections with, and I realized I did when we lined up this interview. I mention those after we finished the interview.

But for those you out there with family or friends or yourselves who have special needs kids in your family, this is some really important information. So lets learn about a fairly complicated area of financial planning today. Financial planning for a family with special needs kid are in our guest today on the podcast to doctor brian gyp's.

Brian gibson, md. Also has a masters and finance. He's a charged special needs.

Consult is A C F P candidate. Uh, he works at targeted wealth solutions as an adviser. And I also been practicing dog so welcome to the public cast run.

Yeah, thanks. I appreciate this is is fun beyond.

So let's introduce you a little bit. I am going to set a few things about you, but let's talk a little bit about you before we get two part in this conversation. Tell us a little bit about you're Operating and how I kind of shape your views about money.

Yeah, it's a good question. So I I grew up in utah and actually five boys in our family middle class neighborhood. I know actually probably lower middle class if i'm being honest about IT. But um you know we my parents did not have college degrees and my dad was a entrepreneur at heart but never really uh was very lucky in his in his business um ventures and so you know money was always a bit of a stress for us to stress here.

As I was growing up, I was one of the older the of the five of us and so you know we basically had our basically met, but um you know anything actually we had a find a way to pay for ourselves and so you know we did a lot of you know starting from the beginning min long paper out working in cda d you know I work as a promotes in college, you know so there is helpful of money stress I think uh in our in our house my parents did their did their best to shield IT from us. And I think for the most party they did but you know, I was old enough and wear enough. I knew that they were stressed out about announcers pretty much all the time.

So you got out of the house at that point and um and where you go then for your education dream.

So I went out to the universe of you talk, you know and so my parents were always very supportive in terms of education and and you know just helping us to really achieve our goals and um you know and helped get scholarships and grants. And you know I was able to undergraduate without any debt and then you ended up going to medical school at at university you as well, which is state school for us so on that helps a lot financially as well.

You know my that certainly wasn't as big I could have been coming out. And so yeah that that's kind of how I how I grew up. You know, I think i've always had a saver mentality based on my parents frugality, but also sometimes this kind of a scarcely mentality. And i've had to, you know, I I I can I can see that myself and and that's part of who I am. And I try to overcome that a little bit now.

Now you've had an interesting career since you've finish your training. Tell us about some of the evolutions your career ahead I mean, some dogs now i've made a number of dogs that have become advisers at some point in their career um but tell us how .

that career pass went for you yeah uh uh my career is definitely not typical. I mean, I ended up doing uh after medical school I went to resent cinemas y medicine um in grand rapids pretty much came out of that with the standard future ahead. My in an emergency medicine and you and I got a job in colorado.

O and and he was a good job and and I can everything was going along at at that point. That's when I got like that a lot of your listeners, that's when I became really interested in personal finance. You know, this is way back when i'm a little long in the two.

So this is back back in the nineties, the nineteen hundred and the last century glass entry. So so as I started practice, very interesting personal finance was just read everything I could. There wasn't a White code investor blog at that point. I was sorry about that.

I did know enough an undergraduate.

but anyway, you know I mean, there were some some websites in some I I read a lot of books and and just got invest are interested in investing in real state. And in all, all this kind of stopped a lot of deal listeners are interested in as well. But then, you know, my life took a hard right turn about two and half, two and hf years after I got out of recency. So I had been going for very long. We'd actually decided at that point to move back to you talk as that where all all of our extended family was um and so I move back to you tah you know you will know h john bali hospital, I worked there but about tune a half years in like I said um that's when my second sun was diagnosed with optimism and at that point, you know everything changes you know for parents.

Uh, when you when you have that come into your life, you know your focus immediately goes to different directions and and that's something what happened to me and you know, as my wife and I tried to figure out what we were doing and and what autism was and and you know how to help our son, you know we we did everything that we could figure out what resources are there, which are were a lot less back then and there are now. And part of that for me is that I I started looking into the kind of the biological side of autism and see what research shows and what I could understand about that which LED me to um eventually they opened up a clinic in utah, just a nonprofit clinic. You know, I kind of let me towards some integrated and functional medicine practice um so I did that while I continue to work in the E R full time.

Ultimately that let me to um going moving the taxes to be part of a bigger multi disciplinary clinic I help to find. So I actually left emergency medicine that point and did um you know kind of functional medicine for autism for about five years full time and that was in taxes but while we were there, uh we decided to adopt another child um who also was severely impacted by autism which was uh you know a decision in the heart but was also really difficult you know as we kind of had now to uh kids with significant special needs and also our oldest son who we are trying to you know kind of make life not completely about autism for hammer and let him have his own is no life um and so but you know for at that point I was twenty four you know I mean I was basically twenty four, seven autism right so I was working not in an autism clinic. I was luxury in all over the place.

I'm talking about this autism treatment and um in home with autism and you know so IT was pretty stressful, her family. And so I I went back to the E R to decrease stress. But you know and also because just just for our own financial futures, I think, you know that kind of medical practice certainly isn't highly reivers and definitely not compared to mercy medicine.

And and now that I had two kids that we're gna likely have lifetime support, I decided I just need to go back to E. R. And focus on our family and our on financial future. So so that's what I did um you know which is was not an easy thing after five years out, but um made IT back in and and you've been doing IT ever since we had moving back to colorado and irritatingly back to the same job that I came out of. Resents y too initially and you know but for me about I don't know, four five years ago, I I could kindly see the writing on the wall for me you know in terms of.

Call what you will burn out or just been feeling stagnant in in in the career or just tired of nights and weekends and holidays or you know there's lots of I think dogs kind of start look around a little bit. But um I I started doing that and said OK well, you know I mean, I said I was in decent place financially, but I I not ready to mentally hang IT up and just retire so I I kind of look back and said, okay, well, what if I were not a doctor? What would I have enjoying doing and um you know really finance um was something that just really interested me and so at that point I decided that I wanted to die.

And deeper act on the academic side of IT went um and got a masters and finances management. You know part of that is just so that I could really learn the nuts involved, but part of the two is I figured that that would help if I for me to find any kind of employment in that field since i'm coming from a completely different background. So I did that.

And then, you know, finance is very broad and trying to figure out, okay, well, what i'm going to do with in finance, I really kind of migrated toward financial planning, started this this certified financial planning process and met a targeted wealth, which I can thank you for because they were listed on your log as one of your wedded companies and um you know so why I reached out to them and I really thought that they were they met all the criteria that I was certain that I was looking forward in a place to work and and you know a lot of criteria that you have listed as a good company to look for. You know for a financial advisor um you know including I mean feel only in in low cost, I mean were defined on the lowest stand of your range of a appropriate fees and you know philosopher of low cost investigation and know all all the stuff that I thought was important I I found in them. And so you one thing that to another and they hired me and here we are very cool.

But you've got a designation that not very many, uh, financial planner have this charged special needs consultant tell us about that what that covers, what that took to get that I mean, this one eight hour class or what does that take to get this designation?

Yeah, it's more than that. So it's almost like this semester of school essentially, you know I M there's there are three different classes that that each take you know six weeks or so, I think to get through him and you know yet to go through through those three and take a test at the end, you know so I I pushed her pretty quickly. You know a lot of IT I I felt very comfortable with, you know, because a lot of IT is teaching about how to communicate with disabled people and and you know I mean, I I know that stuff yeah having .

having run and autism clinic for years and yeah I from your work in the E. R. And having a couple of kids with special needs, I mean, the I can think of anybody that might be more qualified at this point to talk to people about special needs.

yes. So I planned through that part of IT pretty quick. But you know the rest was this really kind of diving in on on all the nuances of the finance and you know of of special families. So yeah.

we're going to talk quite a bit about you know finances, especially these families before we get to that though as a decision turn financial planner, what surprised you the most about working with doxies clients?

Uh, good question. You know, to be honest, it's the ducks that are not my clients that surprise me the most. Meaning you know I am constantly surprised at how many doctors don't pay attention to their finances, right? They just they just don't pay attention or or they act on bad advice without due dilly gent.

You know I so I mean IT IT takes you a lot of effort to get to where you are. And where you are is an a great opportunity to become financially independent. But I mean, is a high income professional.

You should be on the path to financial independence. And so why doctors don't pay attention to that is, is that that's what surprises me more than anything. You know I I like how you kind of designate different pathways.

I guess within uh you know the doctors can take whether it's you know a delegator or validator or A D I Y E. And i'm fine with any of those but just choose one of them. Know do something, do something.

I mean I I get the D I Y thing. I'm A D I Y to the end degree to the point that I became a financial planner, right? I I never actually use the financial planner myself. Um you know I went to master, get a master to Green stead. So so I I get the D I Y. But if you're going to be A D I Y D I Y guy, I D be a good one, right? You actually do the research, take the time, but the affordable so that you know what you're doing um and if not, then get him help um but do something.

So what do you think the easiest way for somebody you know in the beginning to tell if there are a delegator or validator or a DIY?

E um I would say if you have an hour actual time, how do you spend IT? You know if you're if you're A D I wire in finance, you're probably reading the White coat block or you know your your connor stocks, you're you're trying to learn stuff you know and and IT gets you out of bed in morning is something that you're interested in doing in and you love learning about IT that's a good DIY her you know if for me like a validators is you know you like to learn him, stop at you you you don't take the time to kind of fill in all the holes that are out there and then the delegator is you know is important, but you just have no interest in doing that, you know and you'd rather pace somebody else to do IT.

That's the last thing that you want to do with that every time is read anything about finance. And so so that kind of how you know almost like the like tar guys, right? You know I mean, I mean, I just think about IT is like if you want to change your oil, I mean, there are some guys that really love to get their hands dirty and they're going to go out there and try and fix their car and do the oil changes and then the validators are like, you know, I know that I could take money, but you know, I probably should do this and and I watch youtube video and you right for oil changes, i'm A i'm a delegator, right I mean, I it's not worth IT to me so so i'm happy to pay for someone else to do IT. And so that's kind of how I would I would use that as a metaphor probably that's .

that's a beautiful thing about um you know being A D I wire when IT comes to be in your own financial planner and asset manager, you know that there is no Better pain hobby out there than managing your own finance just because the cost of even reasonably Priced advice is not insignificant, especially when you start applying compound interest for many years.

Yeah yeah. And again, as long as you do well because there's also a big cost of screwing up.

absolutely agree with you. If you're not going to do a well, it's some help. But he doesn't you not to scrip too badly to blow through ten thousand dollars here when you have a significant portfolio or especially right?

Our subject today is planning for special needs kids. Now I think we all understand how you got interested in this. You know, between your practice and between your own kids. I don't think that's too much of a of a mystery there, but let's talk about some of the more specific aspects of IT.

And i've thought of what I can think of with this, but deal free to throwing additional information that maybe I haven't thought when IT comes to, to these sorts of planning. Let's talk a little bit, uh, first about medicate, medicate planning or disabled kid in a high income family. So somebody is a White to investor. Listen to this, has a disabled kid in their family, how can they qualify or help their child to qualify for medicate government .

programs that yeah I I think the first think to to address is why should you try to qualify, right? You know your high income, do you need to go on medication? You I think a lot of us have the presumption that um medicated for poor people um and you know for the special needs family.

Um I think you have those families need to kind of get over that and look at medicate not as a welfare program but is an entitlement program because because IT actually is I mean, you have you you pay into the medicate system through tax, the social of tax like the tax you know you you're paying into that as kind of an insurance plan in case you get disabled. There's someone in your family gets disabled. And so I I kind of look at that more like it's almost like an insurance, you know I mean, if you're paying the premiums, why would you not take payout if if if you need IT?

And for special needs, in particular, medicaid really a lifeline for them to have needs met that become incredibly expensive over a lifetime, primarily things like, things like housing, occasional assistance, health insurance, you know, extended long term care of mean lots times you for thinking about long term care for the Normal family. Most people don't stay in long term care for more than A A year, two at the end of their life because they just don't live alone. But you know once they get to that point, but special in these families are special needs individuals that that could be the entire life that there needing extra support in on if you're paying that on a pocket, um you Better have a lot of money because because it's going to it's gonna get into that really quickly.

And the other reason is that some services that medicate offers is not even accessible if you don't have medicated now. So you can even access IT through private pay. And so so it's really is really is important for special needs families to maintain that eligibility.

And and it's a chAllenge on to do that. But but um you know the faces I mean, raising kids, raising a disabled child is expensive and not just in the things that you have to pay for is there's a lot of opportunity costs also. You know I mean like in in my house, my wife could never work out out of our home because you know he and he has been in career.

Of our boys um you know throughout their lives and you know there in their men twenty years now um and will continue to need our full support you know and for me is not like I could be done working eight, twenty years a month whatever. You know I mean I and just leave IT out to my wife and so you know I I cut down SHE was that I probably wouldn't have if if if I didn't have this situation. Hope so there's and I I would add to that that lots of times you know is best to when your kid is are Young.

I mean, that's money that you could be investing. Let's gonna your long term future that you're pain for services for your kids. So so there's lots of opportunity costs and and there aren't very many such these families who are so wealthy that they can tell they support without any assistance. And no, there are time.

Is that hard to qualify for medicate? When you you walk in there to qualify for medicine quality, make you like three, seventy five, they they they raise rai brows and go, well, you're not going to qualify. I mean.

how does that work exactly? It's not hard because well, I mean, I should take this IT can be hard to qualify for S S I. And and that's really what what the government benefit is, right? So it's social security income.

And when you qualify for that medicate is an ad on so so you're not qualifying for medicine earlier. You're qualifying for you have to demonstrate disability, you know? And so sometimes they can be difficult if if it's not clear what your needs are. And so there are strategies to be able to be sure that you can qualify for that.

And you know, one one way to think about that is you have to explain to the people that are qualifying you all the things that your kids can do, like Normal people can do, and his parents, that's going to heart because we are always trying to encourage them and help them to do not everything that they can do. But you have to have a change of mindset when you're trying to to get them eligible for so security and and then you know, without assistance, without support, they cannot do this. And that's really what as this size based on is is you know based on what a typical person can do.

And if they can do that without help, then um they should qualify. So so that's part of IT. So it's it's getting them qualify for that in terms of the income side of IT, they can you know you qualify your kids for as as high when they when they become eighteen.

I mean, that's early that you can do IT. And at that point, they're considered adult. And so they're not it's all about their assets, not your assets. So as parents, your assets don't come in to play or .

not is not like going to college that way. No, go to college, the fast wants you to put all your access on. There is no, there is no equivalent of the fast suff or disable get right.

Yeah so so you know it's all about their access, but that's why it's important to a wishful talk about coming up peers to protect money that you set aside um away from them as individuals because that will discard find the limit that uh they can have as two thousand dollars in assets and and their income you know can has to be less than like I think it's one hundred or one thousand nine seven years.

something like about a month but what about four eighteen? I mean what did they qualify before eighteen? Anything or nothing at all.

So before a team IT is based on the the parents income. And so you know if if you as a parent have a very long and coming very low asset and your kids can qualify, you know, obviously got a few of our of our listeners would qualify self.

They qualify what or medicare what both okay, based on your yeah .

so so yeah up until eighteen is the parents assets, and after eighteen is the child is the child's assets. Now there are exceptions. I mean, if there are some things, you know, some conditions that have really high medical need, you can qualify for medicate in spite of parent tasks.

So so there are exceptions. But for the most parties, thus the delinquent is the age of the the eighteen. So eighteen is actually really important crusher point, if you want to hear that way for ever planning what what .

other government uh, assistance is out there besides you know either from states or federal government for besides as as .

I medicate well. So you know there's some of the other entitlements would include vocational rehab, know? So so that something that um if you qualify for S S I they can still help you find a job and get job train, and some of that includes uh money for education. So uh as as as as I disabled qualifier, you can actually get your college paid for, you know because the hope is that they will be able to come off of medication some point, you know, if they're able to support themselves.

And so there's a lot of job training on things like that if if you have S S D, I, so that that's fed more on either your parents you know if your parents have retired or our deceased or are themselves disabled, then the child calls highs for S S D I which is our security disability insurance and that does not have an asset limit um and then you become qualified dramatic care in that situation. So so there's that. And plus you know a lot of the state have wavers, you know which you medicate medication based waves which can help pay for all kinds of things, you know so like day programs for adults um or you know a respect care or uh you know like a personal assistant to help go do stop for whatever you know.

So so there there are a lot of other benefits that some of them were paid for by the state and are not entitlement. So IT all depends on the state you live in and how much money that state is putting into that program. And some of them are a federally Mandarin entitlements.

What about charitable or non profit, uh, organizations that can they can help in in these source of situations there? Are there any that you think of us go to organizations that uh every parent out .

a nobel well, you know honest, it's kind of disability dependent you know because each each disability can have their own evolution y organza um you know for autism and there's one call the autism resource center, which is arc for short um there's the autism side of amErica there. There's a bunch like that that a real that are strong evoy as he groups um you know in every like is every uh disability that has a name to IT will have something similar to that.

And and and it's a really good resource for people to do that because I mean, generally their their parent driven and organizations or you know just people that are are very focused on that and and they they can really guide you towards the kind of resources that you need because as a parent, especially as a new parent, it's overwhelming, emotionally overwhelming. Just trying to figure IT all out knowing what to do. You're you're in a totally different world than you ever thought you be. Um and so I definitely encourage people to reach out to find the applicable organization because they can help you also with with finding the resources that out there.

Now this two thousand dollar limit in age eighteen and two thousand dollars in one hundred hundred and whatever IT is an income, and I think probably little variation by state there. This becomes very important when IT comes to planning for this uh, now adult child's future. So there's a lot of tools that can be used.

Can you tell us some limit about the best way to use each of these as you try to stay under those limits of assets still qualify for a socii and medicate? Let's start with a relatively new single tax. Protect the account, be able account. Uh, how should those be used?

Yeah, you're right. I mean, in in order to save for your kids future, you have to be able to earmark assets for them. And and IT can't be with under their name, you know.

So so you have to I mean the main ones are the able account and especially trusts um and there are some new ones. There are some differences and frozen cons of each. So the able account is basically started from a law is called the um I think .

is the able act enables .

them to achieve a Better life experience. So achieve a Better life experience act and that that was past in twenty fourteen. IT took a couple years for states to get the funds going, you know.

But over time, most states have added that there. I think there's still a couple that don't have able accounts part of their state. It's usually uh administered by the same program in the state that uh five twenty ninth are administered in.

but which is cool cause presumedly I means they are now competitive with each other away. Five twenty nine have had Better .

account yeah exactly yeah and and that that brings up a good point because you don't have to use your state table account. I mean, you can look around and and find the ones that there's the best. But unlike five twenty nine, you can't have more than one for per individual, you know.

So for five twenty nine, you can have as many five twenty nights for that benefit as you want and as many people can contribute to IT as you want. As you know, as long as that each individual contributes less than the gift tax limit, that's fine um but with able accounts, you can only have one per beneficiary. There is a limit about how much you can contribute to that account regards of who's contributing.

So in in and that's eighteen ten current this years eighteen thousand you have to give tax limit, but you can't have grandparent contribute eighteen and new contribute teen or whatever to eighteen thousand total uh and which is different than five twenty nights. So you have the eighteen. Now the the individual can also contribute some if they have a salary.

So if they are working, they can contribute to the able account up to the poverty limit, which I think this year something like fifteen thousand will go over fifteen thousand. So they can contribute as well. They can contribute .

to fifteen thousand or they can contribute some money up until they're making more than fifteen thousand.

They can contribute up to the poverty limit. Uh so so they can contribute up to fifteen thousand per year in addition to the eighteen thousand that someone else contributes. Um and so you know the the good thing about that is that that money does not count as an asset to the to the individual in terms of their uh government eligibility.

And so um he gives them an opportunity to spend money on you know is pretty much anything as long as it's for the beneficiary. It's a very broad definition of of stuff that you can spend IT on. And you know it's basically like kind like you're five twenty nine where you know I mean that I mean you can have A A debit card, you can write a check.

IT gives them a lot of independence. It's it's easier. You don't have to have a trusty doesn't cost any money other than maybe just a minimal sell up free in some states, you know.

So there's a lot of advantages to IT, but there's also some qualifiers, you know. So you can only if you have more than one hundred thousand in that account. IT does dark counting as an asset until you spend IT down below that.

And you can you can put more than the total like a five twenty nine limit, which is usually four to five hundred thousand, and that's the most that you can never contribute to enable. And so if you have, you know, so that may not be enough to last year, lot of the lifetime now. So so you may need a special need trust to build up kind of A A larger outset base. But but you know it's it's a good uh, mechanism, I think, to just kind of help the data spending.

Now there's a weird rule with able accounts that doesn't apply the very many other attach protected accounts. And I don't think this has been changed. I think this is still in place. But there you really want to spend the whole thing during your life because if there's anything left, the government can claw back to reivers medicate right? If you die and still have .

money in yeah and so that is um that's one of the downsides for sure you know um is the medicate payback revision. Now some special need trust, special needs trust have that as well as uh first party special needs to which you can talk about a minute that also has medicate payback revision some of the states um are doing away with that with the payback for able accounts and some of them have IT that they don't enforce IT.

And so um the problem is, is that you know if you live in a state that has a medicate payback revision in your able account is in a state that doesn't you still have to pay IT back because it's based on the state where you live the the medicate payback revisions. And so yeah ideally you spend that down. You spend that down before they die because after they die that that money first pace back what they've been charged in medicate from the time that disable account was started. So IT is definitely the downtown sides.

Now you might be allowed to get, you know, you, you, whatever your states, five, twenty and nine total limit is, you know, four hundred, five hundred thousand dollars in there. But my understanding is a lot of states start counting IT as the beneficiary's assets once you gets two hundred thousand dollars yourself.

that's right. Yeah over one hundred thousand. That's IT. It's an asset at that point. And so you would lose your asset.

I you may still have you know lots of times you can lose your asset. I but not lose your medicate, so you may still have medicate option and for a while. But ultimately, if you need that as as high income, then you need to spend below a thousand. no. And that is said as as I can come there's not just not that much but um but yeah you would have to spend IT down yeah we just one other thought on unable before we move move past that.

I mean if you have five twenty nine um account, you know like you have A A child that you that you have been having in a five twenty nine four and they become disabled or you you determine that they are not going to be eligible for or they are not going be able to go to cause because of a disability, you can actually roll over five twenty nine money to enable account but is limited. You know you can only roll IT over fifty thousand per year whatever that you know the maximum contribution so ever year. But you know if you plan ahead, you kind of know that they're unlike that they're more likely to need enabled account. And in the five twenty nine, then you can start all in that over before the because five twenty nine count as an asset for disabled kids.

No, I didn't secure act two. Point out, change one of the t one of the able account rules to some about used, not the old contributed if they weren't disabled before age twenty six or something. Didn't something change .

there recently? Yeah, good point. So enable account initially needed. You needed be disabled before age twenty six.

So starting in twenty, twenty six, they've changed that to eight forty six. So you know people that are disabled as adults can still contribute now. So yeah that the that's a good decision.

I think we've enable accounts, uh uh you know as much as we can. Let's talk about the special these trust different types when you might want to use those instead of enable or addition to enable.

yes. So basically there's there's a couple of main types. One is the first party trust and one is a third party trust.

The differences where's that money coming from? Whose money is IT, right? So if it's if it's the disabled person's money and IT needs to go into a first party trust.

Um so for example, if there was a legal settings, you know um and and they were the they got uh a big a payout from that and but IT came to the individual in individuals name, it's that person's money but but that would immediately be and asked that immediate disqualify them from government benefit. And so you can create a first party trust for that money to go in that would protect that money. So the downside of the first party trust is that there's medicate payback provision, you know.

So if it's not spent down, all that extra is payback to the state for the medicine services that they have used. There's anything left after that you can you can do give IT to a no secondary beneficiary. First party trust are a little bit more expensive to set up.

You know they usually require uh um you know like a corporate trustee. And so there's a little bit more know in sometimes it's actually the the court many days, you know. So so it's it's more the legal process.

If you don't have that much money, they really actually kind of make IT worth IT. There's something called a pole trust where is basically run by a non prof. Org organization that a bunch of people pulled their money together. They have A A joint trustee. They take care, you know I mean, it's an individual mark account, but you know they they pay like they would out of a regular, especially these trust.

But when that when that person dies, often that money goes into the pool, you know to help other disabled people rather than medicating even even though medication can access some of them is first that there's anything leptokurtic that those are the first party trust, third party trust or what most people have and most people think about um from a especially these plan perspective and that's that's money that's not the beneficiaries money as money that parents put in or grandparents put in or whoever put in to the trust for behalf the behalf of the the disabled person you know so basically you the the benefit of that is that you have a trusty um you know you have to designate that person who who can kind of the help well as their job actually to ensure that that money is going to the beneficial in a way that makes sense. It's a supplementary trust that's important is that, that IT has to be supplemented a supplement to the government revisions and working on that is actually quite important. But um the trust is in charge of pain that out on the on behalf of the beneficiary, you know.

So the good thing with third party trust that there's no payback revision and that there's no maximum amount that you can put in. So you can have as many people put money in. There is as much as much as they want to. And after that individual, you can have secondary beneficiaries that they get the extra money.

So you know, a lot of people do this for their family, know where they they put the amount that they need for their special needs child, and then list there are other children or grandchildren whatever is as a secondary beneficiary, so IT Foster to them. So so that I think that's really the biggest benefit. Um you know and to ask to kind of figure out what should I do unable or so should I do a special need trust.

One of the other downside, I guess, of a special need trust is that there are certain things that you can't pay for without losing some of your eligibility, least some of your S S I income. So if you pay for housing out of the special need trust that comes out of your S S I check, so you don't get as much S S I for supplementing their housing, you can do that through enable account though. And so so what some people do is they they pay the able account from the special need to trust and then be able to campaign housing.

no. So so there's ways that you can kind use them together. You know the other thing is, is there is there a bit more conversative minister?

You know, I mean, you have to have a trusty you have to pay file tax returns and others, there's taxes old on income and the trust. No, for that reason, some people don't don't fund IT and tell their death. You also, like the parents is a testimony trust. So it's not funded until um they die and then they don't you know don't have the kind of and minister throughout their life. But I mean there's closing contact.

You can do IT either way. What are typical amount that um you know a doctor family might put into uh a trust or enable account and in your experience I mean the you hundred thousand dollars into enable accounting, a few hundred thousand dollars into a trust and call IT good for our people you know leave in millions behind in these .

trust you know I mean that's that's for the special or the financial planning part IT comin because part of that is how much faith you have that those government benefits will be around for your kids like time, you know. And uh some families feel pretty strongly that feel that that they feel pretty safe about IT, and some don't.

And so you know to figure out how much to put in, you really have to figure out about what what their expenses aren't, what kind of life and supplement that you want for your disabled child. And you know that's going to be a family independent bit in general. I mean some people yet to have one thousand, some people s millions in a couple millions.

Um and so part of what I try to do is. You know, put the pieces together. You know, I mean, from a financial planning perspective, the most important thing is to be sure that the parents plan is in good shape, right?

It's kind of like the oxygen in the in the airplane idea. You know, if you're not to Carry yourself, you're gonna have much left for anybody. And so so we try and be sure that that we do a conference sive plan for the for the parents first, and then we start looking at at what what their needs are.

And everybody's disability is dip. There's a wide range of needs and expenses. So you really have to kind of figure out what what you want your life, their life to look like and then figure how much you can get the cost and then protect that ford.

And you know IT is in bad. I mean, part of that is investment returns. And you know kind of just figure all that stuff out.

No, do you intend to fund that? Uh, you know, at death or well before death or what's kind of typical there?

You know, I mean, i've read different things from from different sources where some some people feel strongly just funded IT death and some people feel strongly that they rather fund IT as a living trust. I think the benefit of doing that is a living trust is that you can kind of practice with that a little bit.

You can be sure that the trustee and has a sense of how how to do IT and you can start fun and stuff um you know what you're lie with them, you know with IT take on vacation or stuff like that. You can pay that out of out of the trust or really anything that helps your your disabled child. You can use the trust to pay for IT. And um you know so so there's there's lots of things that families would want to do and can use the trust for that. So this Young, I think every families will be different on them.

Now you've been around this long enough, both in the financial spaces as well as in the medicine space, that you've seen how whole life insurance salesmen are looking for any opportunity possible to sell a whole life insurance policy, one of which is hay. You got a special needs kids. Just a great reason to buy a whole life policy. What do you see is the role of a permanent life insurance policy in a family with special these child, if any?

Well, is good question. And let me start by saying I had no skin in the game you know I don't tell in turn um so and and I agree with you for the most party you know just in terms of your philosophies regard to life insurance and and no term is the way to go for for the vast monitory people. But you know, if you think about why you buy insurance, I mean, we buy insurance because you're transfering risk, right? I mean that's basically what insurance is, is a risk transfer.

And um you know for life insurance, the the risk that your transfering is the risk of dying too soon and before you have money to finance your family, right? So most doctors we we suggested that that they buy term insurance because now by the time their term is done, hopefully they're are going to be financially independent enough that they can self fund n at risk. And so it's no longer needed.

But you know especially these families have to remember that you're you're planning for two generations and uh you know and and so it's there's a risk extends beyond the typical doctor family. And so if you get to the point where you are planning and and you don't have the resources that you feel like you can fund that risk, I think that's what insurance is, is reasonable uh, or not just reasonable. A good idea.

You know one of the I I guess maybe benefits of having a whole life policy is that your your risk is just extending and and you know and if you end up at an older age and realize that you still don't have enough money to find your your kid and then you're into a pretty big term premium at this you know as an underage. But you know for me um I that I can see some value in IT, but I would probably do as like a second to die policy because it's cheaper. You know the premiums are less.

And if you do like a very or like a universal policy, you may be able to pay in for ten years and then just have the cash value paid, the premiums and and so that you have that you have a long term plan to fund, you're special these trust that can kind of that will die with you. And so so that that I think that it's not completely unit. It's not only small as as a state planning to will also you know, if you have a grandparent or somebody that wants to fund the special needs to trust through an insurance policy, they paid the premiums and not think kind of leverage there their gift. So so I don't think it's crazy.

Have you bought, uh, a whole life for other permanent policy to to help bend your children after your own?

So I actually did by a second to dye policy and that, but that, you know, that was before I was a financial planner, you know, I was working on on just trying to get our state set up to help with, you know, especially struction this kind of stuff. They talk to me about this persons earth second to die policy. At that point, I felt like I, I, I wanted to kind be able to transfer that rise. So so we bought a, we bought a second to die policy, which or probable probably be able to stop funding after .

a total of ten years.

But you're still happy you ve got i'm not unhappy.

I mean, no, I am here a make feeling.

make feelings because know of things that ultimately, if I live long and if I live long enough, i'll be able to self funded, right? So the reason to do at that point would be at that point, I don't I I didn't feel like I was there and you know so so the gamble adapt would be okay. Well, another term policy for however long you were taken and that's that's a very reasonable thing too. But is what IT is I pRobing on .

to what else have? Should parents have special needs kids know that we haven't yet talked about?

Well, um you know I I think I think a lot of IT is that there there's a time frame for everything, especially this planning, right? You know I mean and IT IT really fits in their their pressure points along their life, you know so I like when when your first diagnosed, what you focused on as the parent is different than when they're eighteen.

And when they are um after twenty two, it's different than one the eighteen um because that's when they they age out of educational consistence programs during public education um and you know as you're an older parent, you ve got a um you you kind of start thinking about OK what's gonna en to them where they are going to live um you know not around anymore, you know so there's there's a lot of things that specially families have to think about that you know I mean that what most families is you know planned for your own retirement. No help kids get through college um and then you know it's whatever you have left to know it's it's so it's a little bit different because, again, you are planning for another generation. And so there's there's just there's new waters and there's just a lot of landmines.

I mean, that's the biggest thing and there's is so easy to lose benefits. And and i'll tell you, I can speak from personal experience, medicate is that our so security um is air keeping track of your assets. You know like I I had a couple of months where my son had two thousand and four dollars in his account and they came back and and he lost his benefit for that month.

Not so. So it's it's just stuff like that IT. On top of just trying to kind of get through the day to day of being apparently of someone with now those kind needs is um there's a lot to take key track of. And so I mean, I I I would just encourage everybody to you know get the help that they need to at least learn the process and and get on a good path for that .

complicated financial planning is IT is it's different.

It's different know as a whole a whole different element because you have to do all the other stuff here. You have to do all the other stuff too to be sure to you in good shape and most time you have other kids take care of you know. So so it's um you know there's a lot to IT for sure. Well, IT has been wonderful .

to learn more about how to take care of of special needs kids, how to be financial planning for a family with special needs kids. We've been talking with a doctor jepson, who is not only a print emergency physician who has taken care of autism and kids in in autism specific clinic, but also for this discussion, a charge special needs consult and available target well solutions one of our long term advertises we have had here the White conveyor. Thank you so much. Few time today. Brand.

yeah you bet I can I just add one other thing you know in terms of just can help with special needs families. I mean, you know one thing that I like what you saying the doctors is you know often that you introduce uh your your blog or your pocket as as thank you for what you do you know because we don't hear that enough.

I think especially these families um need that you and you know it's it's tough it's it's a tough it's a tough life and and um there's a lot of chAllenges and there's a lot of of things that you have to do and is isolated. And but to those families, first, all thank you for what you do. Second, enjoy the journey. Try because you know these these are special kids and um you know I have obviously a personal sauce pot for them but you know this is um they will change your life in a good way and uh you know and if you a doctor that um are are helping with them, just take a few more minutes with these families, just take a little bit more time, you know smile, uh helps them just understand that there they may be having really bad hey and you know anything that you can do can make a huge difference in their life and and so i'll .

just that that well said. You know it's chAllenging to be caregiver for a year of your life. You know when we're talking about doing this for multiple decades, it's a whole other level of commitment and the chAllenge and difficult.

so. Thank you. Those are you out. They're taking care of a special in these people, whoever they may be, whether their kids or whether are now elderly.

We all need little Better help in this life. Some best might need a little more help than others. And thank you for those of you out there are given IT k perfectly.

All right.

I hope you enjoys that. I discovered after, uh a during and after the interview that brian used to work in my group. So he knows half my partners, all the partners, my group that are over me, he knows.

And so uh a fun connection that we've had to be able to uh you know know a lot of the same people and and work in the same place actually for for a fair number of years. So thank you, bryan, for what you're doing out. They're not only you know in emergency medicine and with your financial planning practice, but for your own family.

Um you've got a great service for a lot of people after that need help with this complicated area a financial planning. Uh don't forget about the bulk book discounts. We have available email books at White code investor document you'd like to order twenty five plus books will give you a discount on them and help you get the word out to other White code investors, potential White code investors, people who just need to become more financially little, more financially disciplined, so they can concentrate on what matters in life.

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