381: Healing Burnout & Restoring Balance with Ancient Herbs | Karina Primelles
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Welcome to the Ancient Health Podcast, where East meets West in the world of medicine. I'm Dr. Chris Motley, and here we explore how modern Western science and traditional Eastern wisdom come together to unlock the body's full healing potential. Each week, we'll dive into powerful tools, techniques, and approaches from both sides of the world to help you optimize your health and live with vitality. Let's bridge the gap between ancient practices and cutting-edge medicine. Let's get started.

Hello, friends. Welcome to the Ancient Health Podcast, where East meets West, and I'm your host, Dr. Chris Motley. Today, I have a good friend of mine we just met, but I can tell it's like, you know, you have kindred spirits, Karina Primellas, and she is one of the head founders, formulators for Chula Herbs, and she has so much more to talk about. And

And she's brilliant. I'm going to tell you that just by talking to her. I was telling our staff, I was like, she's one of those individuals that you're always going to find out something new about Karina. Like she's got that information. And we had a good talk about your journey in the Chinese medicine. So I really appreciate you joining us today, Karina. This is awesome. Yeah, thanks for having me. So I remember like we did, we talked before we jumped on here.

And for the individuals listening today, we wanted to jump into the areas of, we talked about burnout. We've talked about your own resiliency, like how can we be resilient in our bodies and how can we handle burnout with the resiliency that we can find from the tools in Chinese medicine, which I think is a very, very important subject. Um, before we jump into it, um,

I want to know – I want the viewers and the listeners to know about why you got into Chinese medicine because that was an extraordinary story because – and I want you to – can you talk about your background, about how you were – like we talked that we're nerds and what you studied in and like why you went into Chinese medicine?

Yeah, that's a long story. I know, but just maybe a shortcut version. What impressed you about Chinese medicine that you went, huh, this is really good stuff? Yeah, you know, I think that, yeah, like, I think I have to go back to, so in my undergrad, I studied cognitive science. And it really came out of this desire to understand who I was. And I

That really led me through the journey of thinking that I would be able to, through science, get the tools that I needed to really get to that understanding. So that was my initial approach. And in that journey, I realized that, you know, I wouldn't find that answer through science and what I was searching for. You know, I thought that I was in the brain and by understanding how neurons worked and how like,

yeah, neural networks worked, I would be able to understand myself. And in doing that, I realized like, wait, like I am not in my brain. And also science is always evolving and there's all these ways of knowing and kind of like the question I started with and the premise I started with, like, wasn't actually even valid anymore.

And so for a while, I kind of lost the path. I actually got like really depressed for a while because I was like, wait, so what's the meaning? You know, it's like I had science as my foundation, as my framework for which I approached everything. And so if I no longer felt that valid, it was like, what then? And so I took some time and

I always was really interested in healthcare, but I think maybe in a selfish way, just like as a way of understanding myself. Right. So I was like, okay, I'll start understanding myself through medicine. And coincidentally, in that time, I took a cannabis cultivation course and

And I was just so inspired by this plant and all the medicinal sides it could do. And it's not to fully invalidate science, right? Like I read the science behind it and I was like, wow, like this is incredible and it has so much potential. And it got me really inspired into plant medicine. So that's where I started my journey into plant medicine, actually just simply through cannabis. And even though it's one of the herbs within Chinese medicine, I kind of approached it still from kind of like the scientific lens of

And during this time, I had all these chronic gut issues. And for as much as I went to different doctors, I just couldn't find a solution. And I found a Chinese medicine doctor in Mexico that

was the first one that actually treated my issues, like issues I'd had for years and issues I didn't even know were issues he helped me solve. And it really opened my eyes to one, like what other plants could do for me, right? And the ways in which plants hold like this transformational key for many things. And

It kind of took me down this journey to actually start studying with him and learning from him and learning all about Chinese herbalism and also just the Chinese framework for approaching and understanding medicine and health. Wow. I'm really impressed with how you allowed your paradigms to be shifted. And I think that many people out there that do go into Chinese medicine or energetic healing or frequency medicine,

usually have an event in their lives that pretty much shapes their lives. And I think the same happened with me. I mean, I had family members that were in the hills of Korea and they were, they did herbs and

They did certain forms of Chinese medicine. And, you know, but I, you know, growing up in the States, I didn't just naturally wake up and go, I'm going to go into Chinese medicine and do these things. And I was I was really influenced by the mentors that showed me the uniqueness like of me, like people out there. When you start to learn about your own uniqueness, like you learn about who you were through your own healing experience.

And I think that's really important, like in the Eastern medicine world is like a big emphasis on awareness about who you are, about what, you know, what is what makes you you. And can you understand enough about that to actually drive your own healing? And again, everybody out there, I think when we talk about awareness in Chinese medicine, there's so many aspects of it.

I want to get into the line of products you have, though, because I love your stuff. So don't I'm not forgetting this, but look how beautiful that is, guys. Look how beautiful this is. OK, but I just want to talk a bit about how you worded it so well when we talked before about awareness. And I think that like learning about yourself and learning your own healing path, you can take it at any angle. But what would you say like?

How you found your past or how do we find awareness in today's culture? Like what's your view or your aspect? I mean, I think it's really hard and maybe it like feeds into this dichotomy that we kind of see between both kind of like historical Western scientific approaches and these like more holistic forms of medicine. Like I think that we kind of grow or at least like I grew up with this framework where we

I was kind of dissociated from my actual health processes. Like, for example, for years I had anxiety over writing.

And as much as I studied the brain, like I memorized the DSM, I went to therapy, yet I had no idea that I had anxiety. And like I would sit down and want to like tear out my skin about writing. Like it was just like a painful process. Yet like as much as I was living through those emotions, I was actually not aware that that was anxiety that I was feeling. And I think that a lot of times we're just like not aware

like kind of like emotions are secondary to our health and to like our lived experience. So like, we're like living through like all of these things that are happening in our body, but it's kind of, I feel like either you learn to repress it, you learn to kind of like ignore it, right. To push through. Like when we get into the conversation about burnout, I feel like we get to burnout because we're just pushing through. Like our body is like really smart and it's sending us signals about things all the time. It's not like, oops, like I accidentally ended up burnt out and there were no warning signs, you know, it's like,

like it's not like you wake up one day and it's like oh wait like my body can't do this anymore yeah came out of nowhere like what's happening and so I feel it's kind of like that like we're just so used to ignoring our body signs and ignoring these signals and and I think it does come from like a framework where like our emotions and who we are and what we feel is kind of dissociated from what is happening right it's kind of like this like mechanistic view or like

you know, if you have like a, I don't know, like a stomach ulcer, like you go to the doctor and they don't really talk about like, okay, what has been happening in your life or like what, how, how are you feeling? Like, like there's no conversation that really integrates it into your life. It's kind of like these discrete things like years ago, um,

like my lung collapsed, say like it collapsed. And like the diagnosis was just like spontaneous pneumothorax. Right. And there was no conversation ever with the doctor of like,

maybe what were things like what were connections between my organ systems or ways in which I was pushing myself or like different emotions that I was feeling like there was like no conversation about it so then it's like how do you gain awareness if it's just like these things that cannot just happen to you and you like treat them with meds versus like

where you're like also involved in your own healing. And I think that's why we love these other traditions because like your subjectivity and who you are starts getting involved into your own like healing and you start questioning also like, oh, okay. So like,

going back to my anxiety, right? Like I sit down and try it. It's like, Oh, what is actually happening? And what is this telling me? And like approaching these physical responses with curiosity. Like, I feel like I would have even maybe been aware at that time, like, Oh wait, this is anxiety. It's not just like me trying to like ignore it and be like, I'm just going to do this. You know? It's true. It's like when you,

When you find those pieces where they can be connected, like I loved your example about the lung, there is that, I guess, that reductionist viewpoint that we've all been experiencing in our health care today, where it's just like, oh, if you've got a lung issue, go to the lung doctor. If you have a heart problem, go to the heart doctor. And

I'm with you. I think that once we start to learn all the interconnectedness of each organ system, like we've learned in Chinese medicine, like this organ feeds energy into this organ. And I can go through all that and everybody could be like, OK, you're going too much, Chris. But once you start to understand how your body literally feeds itself and how it rotates energy around,

you're right. Like you start to see that there are no coincidences in your symptoms. Like, like you just said, like you're not just waking up one day and go, Oh, I had anxiety. Like when you start to understand more about yourself, you go, Oh yeah. Okay. That is what led my digestive system to go into this realm. And then you can connect it with inner Chinese medicine. I mean, in Western medicine. So that's one thing I think that,

The awareness piece, you may put it so well. When you find awareness and you've gotten into this position of making herbs, like I thought it was a great example. Like you saw a need and you started to put yourself into the herbs, like, you know, learning about it. What was that drawing factor? Like you saw this was inspiring and then you thought, well, I want to help some people in this way. Like what was your motivation in that? You know, I've talked about it in therapy, actually. Yeah.

I'm like, it's kind of like a selfish thing of like, I just think it's cool. Like, like I love it. I love it. You share what I learned, but it doesn't really like, I don't know. Like for some, like, is it kind of like bad that it doesn't come from a place of like, I'm inspired to like heal people. It's like, just more like, I want to, I want to connect with things that feel like they're real. Like, it's like, I don't like bullshit. I don't like things that feel superficial. And I, and,

And I think like through herbs, it's like, you see it, you smell it, you feel it. And I think through there, I was like, well, like I'm in direct contact with something that feels real. And so for me, that was really inspiring. And, you know, like, I don't know, like herbs are just really wise. And I think the, like, I realized that when I actually started my journey in herbs, it was like, this is cool. And like, this is interesting, but like,

I realized there was also like an another side of me that kind of underestimated the power of herbs. Like, I think I was still so conditioned by kind of like this Western biomedicine framework that I was like, well, if herbs were actually that powerful, like we would be using them all the time, you know, or like if,

Maybe what's powerful is we isolate and we concentrate a compound, right? Because that has been the approach in so much of pharmacology. It's like we grab a specific herb and then we extract one of their actives and that's what we use as a medicine, right? Like aspirin from willow tree bark, I don't know, caffeine from green tea. You isolate these compounds. And so I kind of still saw it from that perspective.

And I think that my journey with herbs and where I was just like, wow, I really want to pursue this in depth was actually like the journey with my own menstrual cramps. So like I now at the time, I didn't even know it was endometriosis, but I would just get like really bad menstrual cramps to the point of like,

throwing up and like fainting and crying and all the things like really, really like hard. I remember telling a friend that I thought it was like me going into labor and he was like, you've never had a baby. Okay. I guess.

How do you know, Karina? I know, I'm like, I guess I don't. So we shall see, maybe. But, like, anyway, like, it was just really bad. And I wasn't able to find a solution, like, with OBGYNs. And I kept, like, going to, like, I went to so many. And it was kind of like the pain was a bit dismissed or I was just getting meds. And I was like, wait, like.

like my body is like I was already in that journey of like my body has to be telling me something like I shouldn't just be covering the symptoms or doing pain meds like there has to be like

some other way, like, like something else has to be happening, like something deeper. And with like this Chinese medicine doctor in Mexico, like we started working with herbs and, and it actually started healing me. And like, yeah, like, and I was like, wait, this works? Like, like, I knew like, in theory, you know, but like, when you have a problem that's so severe, and so intense,

wait a minute wait wait a minute yeah like like this is better than ibuprofen like are you kidding me like this like like this work and it that didn't only work like for my pain like it like changed like things in my life and my emotions and like things before my period like it was just like so profound and deep and it was like wow like like i don't know i was like

Like, this is so powerful. Like, this is so cool. I really need to do this. You know, it's truly like when, when you realize, like when people out there start to see the, the efficacy with something as severe as cramping or endometriosis, I will say that that's a majority of a lot of my female patients. They've had experiences similar, like they've had certain pains, but a lot of hormonal and pain.

they went into Chinese medicine normally, they're like, well, we'll see if it, it helps. And the majority of them were like, wow. Like, I mean, I, they knew it helped. And I think like there was so many of the patients that I've known that couldn't have babies and it was Chinese medicine that got, you know, they brought their ovaries to health. So I think I'm, I'm really with you. And I think people out there listening, like it tells us,

That we can help our organs to actually heal and become stronger because normally in medicine culture, it usually is like once your organs are kind of sick, they just adapt and that's how they are. But the vitality of the herb, the vitality strength is what I'm so inspired by. Like when you put your actions into a product like herbs.

I'm going to put something into existence that could actually bring life and vitality to the organs. Like one of the things I love is that you made one for the mood, like, you know, for anxiety. Did you find like I know with your, you know, with anxiety and with, you know, therapy, did you just go on the hunt saying, you know, I know I can strengthen my brain. I know I can strengthen my body to handle this. And you just sort of like got inspired. And what was that process like?

Like with my last formulas. Yeah, this is so good. I'm just going to tell you, I keep playing, I'm telling you, they're so pretty. I'm not kidding. They're great. I chew them, but they're just so pretty. Like, keep going. I'm sorry. I didn't want to interrupt, but they're great. I mean, I think there's like several faces, right? But I think like, I guess the one aspect, which is where you keep, like where you mentioned that it's so pretty, it's my attempt at really making people

Like, I really want this brand that I have created to be one that feels approachable to people that maybe had never considered herbal medicine before. And so I wanted to feel not intimidating, like not serious, but definitely approachable.

So my intent and making it just very clear, very pretty, and also adding like this element of like a gummy or a spray. It's like making it fun to use, making it approachable. Right. So I feel like there's like this thing called capsule fatigue where people like buy capsules and then you're tired of taking so many pills.

and it's so tedious and I think also like with herbs a lot of times they don't taste well and there's obviously like a benefit of like actually tasting the herbs and experiencing that purity but I think for me it's like okay how do I bridge the gap between that kind of more purist stance to also kind of like this more modern approach and I see just how we're just like kind of kids like

And you like pleasure and you like things that taste good. And I think that the more we add pleasure into your lives, the more it's likely to actually like reinforce our habits, right? It's kind of like, you don't like,

It's way harder to build a habit out of punishment and forcing ourselves. So I was like, with herbs especially, for you to really feel those deep and profound changes, you really want to be taking it consistently for a while. Not forever, but for a while. And with these formulas, what took me really long to do was actually just the presentation and making sure that they were potent and effective, but that they actually also tasted well.

And so that was kind of like one of the key parts in this formula. Right. Because it's like you can have the same mood herbs in a capsule. But if somebody is like not actually into taking them and just leaves them there, like, you know, it's not really going to do much. Yeah. More important aspect. But in terms of. Oh, sorry. No, that's that's a that's a really good point. Because I think that when you say the capsule fatigue, I'm with you. I think that.

the psychology of like looking at a product, there is like an energy and it's not just like the herbal energy, but what's exuded from the package and what people like are attracted to. So that's why I think it's so, you know, it's so good because I'll tell you this, like sometimes I've had times, I know you can too, like you'll look at a bottle of something and you'll go, that has good energy in it. And what's the first thing is like the person who's developing it

puts their own energy into what whatever it is like the labeling and what it looks like so you can tell that your personality has come through and i'm like i think that the people know about the person who made it just as much about anything if they look at it so i didn't mean to interrupt but um that's why i was first thing i was telling lindsey and christy um who helped me with the show it was just like when i first looked at it i could tell like

that there was something good in this and I could just from what it looked like. And then when I received it and I started, you know, taking it, um, personally speaking, you could feel the energy. And I think people out there are like, what do you mean you feel the energy? You can feel the energy of the herb, but when you have a good product, you can also put, feel the energy of the intention behind it. And I think that's really, really important about anything. So,

Um, this though, like where you were inspired, I know like you had your cramps and you had, um, the conditions that helped you like go into herbs, but did you have like a process like where, like it's for the mood lift? Did you have certain, you know, events in your life are happening and you went, I'm going to make something like for the mood and I'm going to make something like that. Is that how it, you know, basically come about?

Yeah, like it's like right, like the first era of my brand, it's more menstrual products. It's products that are really tailored to like female reproductive health. And then like a lot of like cannabinoid based products that are really there to support like sleep and stress. And I think it was things that I was like really dealing with at a time. Like I feel like my brand's like my Taylor Swift eras, you know? And like, and so like, yeah,

I love this. And you found that that era, like what, you know, that, you know, like what would affect your,

basically the audience or the culture that you want to help and want to, I say, attract. I'm really, in Chinese medicine, there is a certain type of culture that really does love the idea of vital energy and energy that's put into the herbal form and it actually is transmitted into our tissue and into our blood. And I've noticed that

Once you get a taste like I like that you made this taste good because that that's a big important because a lot of people don't. But I'm with you, though. When you get into the culture of herbs, it sounds kind of morbid. But after you start experiencing herbs, you start to understand the taste and some don't taste good at all. I know you I mean, sometimes you taste it, right? And you're like, heavens, this is horrible. But you kind of enjoy it.

I mean, I know that sounds weird, but sometimes you go, oh, that tastes so bad. It actually probably is pretty good. But the thing is like you're using, you know, what you've learned. You're using this, what it looks like and what it tastes like to actually pull those people in. So they're getting the benefit and they're getting drawn into the herbal world. You know, that's what I really love about this. Yeah. It's like my brand to be like your gateway to herbs, you know. Yeah.

The gateway, the gateway, oh man, it's like, this stuff's for real, you know, like this actually like works and it's like kind of cool, you know, like I want that, like, yeah. Oh, I mean, this is so good, like to me, it's like you're developing the herbs and okay, so I'm not, I'm a little bit backtracking everybody out there, but

When you found the herbs and you're helping individuals, you're getting into Chinese medicine. You know that you were like you were really your parents.

thinking about awareness and the connectivity of the body and you're wanting to help people and you're wanting to put something together was there like um when people out there asking like how did you find your path forward like you knew you had to do it was there anything that just you could talk to people about that said hey if you feel stuck emotionally or in your mood you know like literally like is there something that you found really pushed you forward

Yeah. I mean, I think that I've gone through like really hard depressive episodes and I think like a big thing was also just like changing my mental framework of really doing things for myself. Um, and that's like the whole thing, like outside of herbs. Um,

but I just like really started to find how herbs could really support me through any process that I'm going. Like, I think now how I see herbs is just like, regardless of what I'm going through, there's an herb that's there to support me. This is good. That's great. Perfect. And so, you know, like when I actually made this formula, it wasn't that I was like down, but I just like knew like,

Like in that moment when I decided to create these new formulas where it's like my mood formula, my formula for your brain and one that's more specific to burnout, I had just gone through burnout. And I found myself in this phase where it was just like, regardless of how much I slept, regardless of like, how well I ate, I was just like.

so tired and so like I just couldn't like physically like just I don't it was burnt out like I just physically couldn't even work right so I took like a few weeks off from work I was like I can't like I just I'm not like I'm not able to like actually bring my full self into this I just need time to like not do anything and in that I was like okay I need to like like like I found that

one of the key things that really started to help me come back was using adaptogenic herbs, mostly from Chinese medicine, but I also stole a few from Ayurvedic medicine. And so this formula that I came out with was one that I personally just found to be really useful for making me feel good. And, you know, like there are like these specific, like, you know, like,

There's so many different functions that a nerve can do beyond what it's for. So it's kind of funny, right? Because it's like these adaptogenic herbs are also really good for your spirit. They're really good for anxiety. When you're burned out, you're also kind of down. Maybe I wasn't super depressed, but it brings your emotions down. I love rhodiola, for example, right?

It's such a nurturing herb and it's like good for both like your spirit, but also like your energy and like helping you like, I don't know, like come up. Right. Like I see it as like revitalizing. So anyway. Oh, sorry. No, no. I mean, it's like they keep it anyways. Like you say, it's a nurturing. It helps raise you up. This is great.

And so that was like a formula I really did to help me with burnout. But then I was like, what are key things that people really need support with? And like friends keep talking about that they're having issues with, but also things that I personally struggled with at turn points. Right. So one was just like, like having ADHD. Right. And like, I'm like kind of glad that I've gone through like all these things because I feel like now it's like, I can understand people that are like struggling. So it's like, I was like, okay, like,

I can personally really understand what it is to like not be able to focus at all and be all over the place. And so I made like that formula that's like kind of for me, but for other people, because I was like, if this is something that really helps me, it helps others. I had like my burnout formula and then I had like my,

more like mood lifting, emotional supporting formula. Like I was like, okay, I want this formula to just feel like an herbal hug. Yes. Yes. That's the great, that's the, that's a great name. Herbal hug. Yeah.

You know, just like something that's just like going to embrace you and like help you come up. And it's like, you know, I don't know if you've seen like all the herbs I added in there, but like one that I love is he huampi, right? And it's like it translates to a collective happiness bark. Like how beautiful is that, right? So it's like, I think there's also like the poetry in that. Like I added like, I don't know, these different herbs that...

That's one good thing with that, Karina. Like what – I mean I don't like to try to like prioritize, say, one herb is better than the other. I respect all the herbs because I love them all.

But, you know, some individuals out there go, OK, you're talking about adaptogenic, which would mean like adrenal building and helping your body handle stress better. Like you did talk about rhodiola and the happy bark like like and you can go through the herbal list. And one thing I'm so appreciative of is that there's not like 30 different herbs. Now, trust me, I understand like in Chinese medicine, we have formulas and there's like tons of herbs. But I like that you've kept it.

to each one has like a smaller list of herbs and I like that because it doesn't overwhelm a person, you know when they look at your products and you know with the With the use of different herbs. I find that myself personally. I do like a lot of herbs Can you know like if you give me a tincture? I'll take it. I don't care what it like I'll just try it, you know, and I just douse it down, you know and but

There's one thing that I think that I've learned is that I could have like one herb or two herbs or something, and it did the work of like 15 different herbs if I just use it in the right context. And that's what I love about Chinese medicine. So that's – when you have that and you put all these together and you went through it, you went through all these conditions, and you said the greatest practitioners – and this has stuck with me – is that who went through it. Like you went through having ADHD. Yeah.

And guys, I love what she said, so I have to talk about it. But it is true, though, right? Like you had to go through that to help you find the path forward. What with that, when you went through it, did you realize at the time that you were like, I'm going through this for a purpose? Or did it like come at you at the end, like afterwards? And you were like, oh, I went through that because I had to do this. What was that awareness like?

Like, I think that now maybe I see it as, like, for a purpose, but it's definitely, like, I think in the hardest moments in my life, it's more been, like, a bit chaotic or a bit... Yeah.

it's more now in retrospective like i like with adhd when i got to college i was prescribed like all the add drugs like from adderall by vans concerto ritalin like i just went through like like a lot and it really messed me up like it messed me up emotionally like energetically like

and and I kept telling my doctor I'm like I don't know I don't feel good like I'm like developing like OCD kind of stuff like I'm just like not like yeah not feeling good so then they would like switch me over you know and I just went through the rotation and it's kind of like when you like for anybody that's taken these meds which they definitely like have a role for some people but in my case it was like anytime I would like

go off them, it was just like, I felt like I wanted to die. And it was like, my focus was worse. Like my mood was worse. Like I just wanted to sleep. I wanted to eat. And like, yeah, like I was just like on edge and just really down. And I felt like, like these were really harsh substances for me that maybe like for periods of time allowed me to perform at a very high level academically, but then had like this really intense dark side.

And so for me, it's like very personal to make like a brain formula in that sense of I didn't know it at the time. And like, it's not like I would love like to go through it again. But it's just given me a different kind of

like know-how or understanding and empathy for people that are struggling to focus, to go through it, and also to very deeply understand what the dark side is of a lot of these pharmaceuticals, like at least like in, yeah, in a very personal level. So

For me making mine food, it's like I want something that feels very noble. That's actually like what I love what you said at the beginning of this conversation of herbs that help make your organ system stronger, right? Not deplete you. Like I think that there's,

Right. It's like with these adaptogens, it's really interesting to have herbs that support your energy systems without them having stimulants and without them actually being depleting. And it's been like a question I've gotten so much from different people of like, wait, this is high energy, but it has ashwagandha. And they told me that I should take ashwagandha like for like if I can't sleep, you know, like why would this help me with my energy? Like it's just a very confusing thing because I think we're so used to like

taking coffee or taking like these ADHD medications that are just, that drain your system, that drain your adrenals, that drain so much where you're just like kind of not less stronger on the other side. And either you're like dependent or you're just like worse if you don't take them. And I feel like with the herbs, what's really incredible is like to have something that actually helps like enhance your function and

And help like build a stronger foundation versus actually just kind of like using resources that you have in the moment and leaving you kind of emptier, like on the earth. Oh, that's good. That's good. Yeah, Karina, because it's like when you went through that journey and you had to go through those medications, like,

there's probably that, maybe that feeling internally, like you just said that, hey, I went through this. I had these ups and I had these downs while I'm on the medication. I had these experiences. There could be some positive aspects about everything. There could be some negative. And I think as a practitioner,

Your heart is, I don't want individuals to go through those extreme lows like I went through. And understanding what the medications can do is a one-up for you in formulating things because you say, well, this is going to give you really great benefits in your neurology and your brain without all the side effects.

You get more of what they call street cred. Is that right? Like they go, Oh, she, she went through and got street cred because she went through it. And that's the truth though. Like I, I, I think I had Lyme disease very, very badly. And we talked about, I had a ruptured ulcer in my stomach in 2017. And you, and you're not saying, Oh, since I had it on the most, you know, the foremost knowledge on it, but what it does do is give you a heart of grace, like for that condition. And, and,

You see that in the way you talk and the way you're like, let's what can I do to help improve? So you put it eloquently when you talked about, OK, so I went through all of it, have been through all of it and you experience so many emotions. Have you found like with your with your, you know, the brain supplement, with helping the mood change?

The people out there are going to say, yeah, I've had some pretty bad traumas, like emotional traumas. Do you find or do you – like with these adaptogens that I know we can't say it heals an emotional trauma, but do you find that it helps emotional traumas as well when you have these kind of concoctions? Definitely. I think that when we think about – like I kind of see now, I understand that it's like our –

emotional self is distributed throughout our body right it's something that like we're not like like it's not something that we think and even our thoughts are distributed but say like emotions which is more simple to understand like you know you're anxious you feel like sweat you like you feel like a pressure in your chest like there is like these like physical physiological changes whenever we experience any emotion like be it like fear joy etc like so

It necessarily has to mean that, like, there's, like, a physical bodily memory or, like, a cellular memory of that experience of those emotions because, like, our body lived through those emotions. And I sometimes feel like, and maybe it's, like, more, like, I don't know where I'm, like, basing it fully from, but...

I feel like in this distribution of emotions throughout when we take the herbs and they're like helping us with or supporting us with something, it's kind of like maybe they're helping clear out stuck emotions or stuck memories. Like if we are allowed to like get into like a new pattern of like a new way of being a new pattern, like, like changing something that's stuck. It's like, obviously it has to be like releasing something. And yes, we see our emotions as like,

like, like truly like these like physical, like that they have like these physical instantiations and like the herbs are like, I don't know. I think like it's pretty clear that they have to be like addressing that too. Oh, I I'm with you. I think that

Do you feel, and I'm not trying to have you agree with me, Karina, this is a great conversation we can have tons over, that when we talk about, for all of you out there who may have heard of homeopathy or a different alternative medicine perspective or treatment, to me, that's the beauty of the herb. Whenever I get an herb that I find a patient wants,

No, no way am I trying to act like I know all the things about the herb, like because I don't. But I do think it's really fun and interesting is like in the Chinese medicine books, because I had the whole, you know, I literally have books right here and I have to go in and read them all the time with my patients. And when you look at it, they'll say, well, this herb helps with this type of emotional issue. And the cool thing is that whenever you start to look at the herb, you say, wow, wow.

That herb is used to help with this kind of emotional condition and you hit it nail on the head because in the Chinese medicine world, the symptomatology that the person's experiencing for all you guys listening is because it's a physical manifestation of what that person's feeling.

emotional world is like. So the herb has a frequency that's going to go after that, that emotion. And I think it's the coolest thing when you can find like emotional healing with herbs because, because sometimes, uh, Canina's people will come in and, uh, we, whenever you come out to Nashville, it's going to be glorious. But when, when you're working on somebody and they'll say, doc, um, happens all the time when I'm around such and such, I'll get like a headache or I'll get a stomach ache.

So literally like at times what I'll do is I'll have them think about the person or about the event and then I'll check their pulse points. I'll check their pulse points and see where it goes and which organ literally goes down the drain, goes in the tanker. And then I use kinesiology and I'll do some muscle testing and I'll find out which herb will balance it because they don't have necessarily all the time. Like you have to get some therapies for that. I can't solve that. And I am surprised that.

at the type of herbs that some people need to help process the emotional trauma from somebody that's not the best in their life. It's really, really amazing. And our bodies are so profound, like unique, like it's really unique. It's really like amazing to me how our bodies represent what we're thinking. So all I have to say, everybody out there know that herbs treat emotions and help with that. So I was going to ask this.

I know we've gone through these things with your products and such. Um, and I'm really, really impressed about how the energy behind it, how did, um, when you started to formulate it, um, I think we had maybe a good conversation. Maybe we can go down this route or not, but you had somebody that talked about you, you made sure that there was a good synergy in all the herbs. Like there was a good synergy aspect of the herbs. Um,

Did you start to look into the herbs, and when you put them together, did you have necessarily – I'll say a feeling though, Karina. I'm just saying did you have that aspect in your head? You're like, I know these are going to work together. How did you get that part? Because I love this about learning about herbs.

I mean, yeah, it was like a pretty long process. Like, you know, I think I don't consider myself an expert yet. But I think that I can really connect with the herbs. And like when I started the process, it was just like ones that like for a while, like given my, you know, herbal classes or herbs that I had already been using myself.

it's kind of like I start grouping them and making a list. And then I started looking at like, you know, I have my textbook of like Chinese medical pharmacology, you know, the Chen and Chen book. So it's like, I love that one. So I like start going through that. And he makes like, it's a Chinese medicine book, but it makes references to like a lot of scientific studies and drug interactions and all that. So I started like writing that and then like looking at the studies and from those studies going to other things. So I started kind of

like making a map of like okay what are all the different functions or what are a lot of the functions of these herbs and how do they relate to like what's the goal that i want to achieve and then i just kind of start feeling like how they might all

relate to each other what proportions and and then I have to kick some herbs out obviously so that's really hard right because it's like I love them all and then you're like but like you know I leave you behind you're like I love you you know I do please I'm sorry yeah like my yeah Dr. Kofi he's my he was my herbal teacher and he was like okay like try to keep it at 10 max 12 so like that was like

the, like, that's always been the framework that I approach making an herbal formula. It's like, okay, at a certain point, it's like, what's really going to make it really work. And so that's kind of like, I kick some herbs out, I really find like the highlights. And then from there, it's like, I went to my teacher and was like, okay, like,

I have these formulas. I've really given a lot of thought. I think this for this and this and this, you know, and then he would give me feedback and be like, actually, like you did not consider that maybe these don't go that well together. Or maybe you should add, for example, like licorice to help harmonize like these effects. So like, yeah.

That's a yes. Yeah. You know, it's like like if the listeners don't know, like there's also herbs whose role is to harmonize, like create like a greater synergy across herbs. And so like in all of these formulas, I've also added herbs that maybe aren't there for the the effect. They're there to just help by create greater harmony. I got to write that down because.

I know that, I mean, you put it so well, like I've literally thought about like, you know, there's certain formulas I would love to, to create, but that's one big thing that you had to really consider is how well, like you say, they work together. Like there, you know, it's like, it's like a group of friends, you know, there's always one that's the connector. It doesn't really mean that they're the funniest or the best looking or whatever. It's always the connector. Like, and, and I think that's like, you say licorice, like,

which herbology book because people out there gonna ask me which one is it the chinese medicine one i forgot i gotta find like a chinese medical herbology and pharmacology okay they're probably may some will buy it some won't but i'm saying like okay but i mean it's a massive massive huge i've seen it because i've got three of them here and i was like you know and i i've got so many like texts but i'm like i love learning about like

which herbs do what and you're in your right about how some are connected. And that is a very important case. It's just how one herb will help something be absorbed better. That's amazing that Karina. So you went through, learn the connectors, found out how they harmonized. Exactly. And so, yeah, like licorice is a great one. And yeah,

Which is like, I put it in my food. But then after that, then I went to actually work with the people that extract the herbs. So the sprays, I make them here in Colorado with this guy that's just brilliant at knowing how to really capture the spirit of the plants and maximize the extracts and uses different

depending on like what you want to pull out and what you want to maximize or heighten. And I started working with him to try to get the flavors down and that was

was like a whole different experience. It was like, as much as like this formula was in my mind, perfect. Like nobody was going to take it or like most people would be like, this tastes so bad. I cannot, you know, like, especially like the brain one, like a lot of like the brain herbs are just really bitter. So that was really hard to get down. So then I started working with another herbalist here in Colorado that has way more experience than me. And I was like, Hey, so I don't want to sacrifice the benefits of,

But how do I work with maybe the proportions of the herbs in the formula? Or what can I do to bring like greater flavor harmony to these herbs to actually make it into something that people want to take, but that still has like these benefits that I'm seeking. And so then she really helped me start tailoring the formula and be like, look, like,

there's these ways that these, this set of herbs potentiates each other. So I think that based on that, you can reduce the concentration of say like ginkgo biloba or gotu kola, which are super bitter. Like those herbs are just like rough. So then, you know, we were able to like increase the rosemary, which also has like all these like antioxidant benefits and like helps with like memory and all these things. So it was just like,

we helped like increase rosemary, decrease like ginkgo and certain like things like that. And then we like did extracts again. We'd like tasted those. And then it was just like this iterative process of playing around. I love it. I mean, so you were like tasting, like I could see you like sitting there with a whole bunch, just like, yep, yep, no, no, yep. Like everything was like, no, no, no. And it's like, oh man, like...

Do you I mean because I didn't know like when you say the rosemary brings it together And I got to get in contact with your friend who's like does herbal because I love the way you put it together because literally you are so dead on about like with ginkgo or you know when you say go to cola because There it is pretty harsh guys. I mean people out there I'm just saying if you've had experience with like herbals It can like those are particularly like kind of harsh. I'm used to it. I know you are too though, Karina like

I kind of like the bad taste now. I mean, honestly, like I'll just take my herbs and just, you know, take them when I need to. But to me, though, like that synergy portion, you can tell you've done that with the care in the products. And that's really important, I think, because

And so as in the micro, so in the macro and vice versa, I think that whatever you're putting into the supplement, I want you guys to know that the care to literally find herbs to bring them together is pretty profound. And you can tell that. So you did rosemary. What was that process? I know we're running out of time, but I just love it. Did you go like right when you tasted it, you're like, that's it? I know that's the one we got to use. Is that what happened or what like the aha moment?

Yeah, well, there's this moment where also like the server list, she was like, what if we add like a bit of spearmint essential oil? Like, I think that that could really like bring it together. And so between like really heightening the rosemary and then just adding like a little bit of spearmint, all of a sudden we were like, like, I remember everybody was really surprised. I was like a bunch of us and we were like tasting them and they were all like, and I was like, okay, like this is the fifth round, you know?

Don't give up on me. Don't give up. And we also added like a bit of like monk fruit to make it like slightly sweet. And all of a sudden it was just like, everything came together and I was like, this is it. Like it was so clear. Like it was just like after so many rounds and I was worried, I was like, no, like this has to work. It was like getting just like a little bit of monk fruit. And then just the little bit of like spearmint essential oil and really raising the rosemary concentration was just like, I was like,

okay, this is good. Like, let's not move anything. Like, like, you got it, you know? Oh man, I'm telling you, this is like, to me, I just love the whole idea of like herbs and it makes me feel like a kid in a candy store where when we talk about like, when you go to the store, like you and I probably go to a health food store, we're like, oh man, this is, yeah, yeah. I love looking at all these things. But

There's a lot of time and consideration that is put into these. And there's a difference between herbal lines, in my opinion, that you can honestly tell that they were just put together to be put together. And there's others that you could tell had care, a little TLC in there. And I'm so thankful for it. But, you know, when you talk about your journey through burnout, learning how to become resilient, how to strengthen the body, the vitality, and you're using it in the products, it's

Um, to me, people out there that if you're going through burnout and adrenal stress and you want something that actually tastes good and gives you the propensity to keep on doing it because it tastes good, it looks good. It's fun. We're going, I want you to look at Chula herbs. So, but first, Karina, um, I want to ask you, like, we want to know where to find you, but I, I.

I just want more importantly, like to people see like if you when they come to your page and who you are, just to show how to see how smart you are. I know they do. I'm just like, you're really like very smart. And you have such a good head on your shoulders. Can you tell us again how to find you? Where is your page? Where's your link? And guys, this is like first of many conversations like our friend Chloe Weber, like I just we love talking about Chinese medicine. So

you'll you're going to see canada again so but can you tell us where to find you yeah you can find us on our website so it's just chula herbs xula herbs.com and um right now we're trying to get into some grocery chains so as soon as i do i'll let your podcast know so that they can also buy them in person but as of the moment the best place is our website

Oh, so they got the website and I want everybody out there when we do for the audience that you can use the code Dr. Motley that's spelled Dr. Motley, M-O-T-L-E-Y, and you can get 20% off. And please just give it a try, guys. As in, you know, some people look at herbs and they'll be like, I don't know. I've tried herbs before. I'm like, literally, I would tell you guys this tastes very good. Very good. And it really has helped. Like I've noticed that throughout the day, personal testimony.

You know, my cortisol can get a bit low, Karina, like in the morning. Because, I mean, you know, you work all day and you try to do as much grounding as you can in the day. But I usually get around 10, 30 or 11 o'clock. And there's a specific point where I can feel that the chi in my body really wants a good reservation. It wants to stay down in my lower dantian, like down in the gut. It wants to stay there. It doesn't really want me to get out. It's just like, no, you're done. Come back in. And...

I'm not forcing my body to push out energy that it doesn't need to push out. But what I would know is that when I do take it, there is a more of a relaxation to the point where it's like,

I can give a little extra energy out right now, but I'm very aware of my own boundaries. And I don't know how to explain that personally, but I'm saying that's what – like with the mood lift. Like I'm telling you, like whenever you find some – the Chinese medicine peeps and they send you stuff and we talk, I'm doing it. So I really want to say though thank you so much for this and come back on our podcast. And so I want you guys to go visit the Chula Herbs website.

I just want to know why you had the name Chula, though. I'm just serious. Like, I know you probably do, but I love to ask people these questions because I have two more questions for you. But why the name? So when I developed the brand, I actually developed it for Mexico, which is where I'm from. And I was living there at the time. And Chula is this kind of term of endearment amongst women. My friends, like, I know you can call each other Chula and Chula.

It kind of can be cute or hot, but it also can be...

It also like, like it means like, like to feel good in your skin, right? Like to feel like good in who you are and good in your body. And so like, for me, that was like the name, like, it was like, okay, I want this brand to be like, like we also have like the slogan, like feel yourself, which I don't know how we were able to get that, get that trademark. But like the whole thing was just like about like feeling good in who you are, feeling good in your body, like in your own skin. And so I felt that that,

like name could be really representative of that. Oh, that's good. That's good. I mean, I love the explanations because people like when they have a really cool name, I always want people out there to know because I love meanings and acronyms. One last, always last questions. Like I have a few to pick from, but what is your best hobby that you like to do to like bring relaxation to your life? Like I asked the person, like, what do you, what's your favorite thing to do? Oh, that's such a hard one.

See, it's not easy sometimes. That's why I ask.

No, it's like, it's going to sound kind of like right now I'm living in Colorado. So I think like a really obvious one and it's like for real, like I just love having access to the mountain. Like it's just something I really missed when I was living in Mexico city, like here it's like five minutes from my house and I can like hit a trail. And that's just such a game changer actually with Dr. Chloe. Like that's what we do. We just like go on walks, like we hang out and we go on walks. Like it just,

I think so therapeutic. But I think right now I'm like in my like more young era maybe. And so I've really been finding a self-care through weightlifting, which is going to sound kind of like not like what you generally find, but I've just been enjoying it so much. Like 20 minutes, like right now I've just been like really into like,

lifting weights. Like, I don't know. Perfect. No, I love it. So like you love lifting weights and people want to hear those things. They want to know like, what is like, what is the different side of Karina? So like, so next time we come on, like I have other questions. The next time we do that, I'll ask you another question, but I'm not going to, you know, be the spoiler alert for the next time.

So everybody out there, I'm so thankful. And Kadeen, thank you so much for joining us today. I really want everybody out there to, if you're going through burnout,

If you feel disconnected from the body and you think Chinese medicine is an avenue you would love to investigate, but want literally a gateway to finding what could be actually helping your higher centers of your brain and even like your conscious to actually sort of be connected, herbs can help in many ways. So herbs.

I want you to check out Trula Herbs, check out Karina's website. And from all of us here, remember, if you have any questions, if you have any comments, just throw them in the comment section. Ask us some questions. We'll have these things in the show notes where to find her.

And if you guys have any extra questions for the next time, please let us know. Hit the little bell so that anytime the new episode comes out, it informs you. And if you have anybody that just want to get into Chinese medicine, send them this podcast. And like and subscribe. So we're so thankful from all of us here at the Ancient Health Podcast. Until the next time, remember, guys, just try your best to stay centered.

And remember, try to find those things, seriously, those habits in your life that actually, truly can bring you some form of self-joy. And remember, even if you did 10% of it,

You're doing a lot better than most of us. So try it out. Until next time, take it easy. Bye, guys. Before we wrap up, please remember that the information shared in this podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice. No doctor-patient relationship is formed through this podcast, and the use of information here or materials linked from this podcast is at your own risk.

The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always consult with your health care provider before making any changes to your health regimen and do not disregard or delay seeking medical advice for any condition you may have. Our content may include sponsorship and affiliate links to which we earn a small commission on sales made through those links.

Thank you for joining us today on the Ancient Health Podcast. We hope you've gained valuable insights into the harmony between Eastern and Western medicine. If you've enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe, share, and leave us a review.

Remember, true health is about balance, mind, body, and spirit. So stay tuned for more episodes where we continue to explore how ancient wisdom and modern science can work together to help you thrive. Here's to your health, balance, and well-being. I'm Dr. Chris Motley, and I look forward to our next episode together.