cover of episode How to fight Apple and (maybe) win, with Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney

How to fight Apple and (maybe) win, with Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney

2025/5/6
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Tim Sweeney
创立Epic Games和Unreal Engine的美国视频游戏程序员和商人。
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Tim Sweeney: 我认为这场诉讼的核心问题关乎我们未来的数字自由。我们生活在智能手机上,时刻与他人保持联系,工作和娱乐都在手机上进行,未来将更加依赖手机。因此,消费者和开发者之间自由进行交易至关重要。如果只有一个垄断的看门人来决定人们允许玩什么、看什么、听什么,并从每个人在线进行的每一笔交易中收取过高的费用,那么我们将拥有一个比我们成长时更加不自由的世界。我从13岁开始在Apple II上编程。你打开电脑,就会得到一个基本的编程提示。任何人都可以编写代码,任何人都可以将其保存到软盘上,你可以与朋友分享,也可以出售。这些数字自由对未来至关重要。苹果和谷歌介入每一代人之间的每一次交易,决定这些应用商店的内容,这威胁着新一代公民在世界各地的基本自由。因为我们越来越多地通过应用程序进行生活,游戏、金融应用程序、购物应用程序、通信应用程序和社交应用程序。因此,我们与苹果公司就两件事进行了斗争。首先,是自由地运营与苹果应用商店竞争的商店。其次,是在没有苹果向交易添加额外费用的情况下,通过我们自己的支付服务进行我们自己的支付的自由。 法院裁决Epic Games在反垄断诉讼中败诉,但在加州不正当竞争法诉讼中胜诉,苹果阻止开发者告知用户可直接在线与开发者进行交易的行为违法。苹果对不同类型的应用程序采取了双重标准,对大型公司(如Netflix和Spotify)的限制较少,但对游戏开发者施加了更严格的限制,不允许他们绕过苹果的应用商店和支付系统。苹果的30%佣金最终由消费者承担,导致产品价格上涨和产品质量下降。法院的裁决将使所有开发者都能向用户提供更优惠的价格,并促进竞争。开发者可以使用更低费率的支付服务(如Stripe),从而降低成本并提高盈利能力。苹果的30%佣金过高,开发者可能会转向其他支付方式,迫使苹果进行竞争。所有主要开发者都将支持替代支付方式,因为苹果30%的佣金过高。 我们在与苹果公司的诉讼中花费了超过1亿美元的法律费用,并且由于游戏被下架而损失了数亿美元的收入。我们损失的收入可能超过10亿美元。苹果对应用商店的控制导致游戏行业的估值被严重低估。尽管苹果可能会上诉,但法院的裁决对苹果具有约束力,并且苹果的行为被认为是恶意遵守法院命令。苹果试图通过伪造特权来掩盖其商业行为,并试图误导法院。苹果的行为不仅针对Epic Games,也针对其他国际监管机构对苹果的调查。法院的裁决是最终的,苹果必须遵守禁令。苹果上诉的可能性很小,因为法院已经明确裁决苹果恶意遵守禁令。一旦苹果完全遵守法院的裁决,Epic Games在美国的诉讼将结束。我们将继续在其他领域与苹果抗争,以维护开发者的权利。Epic Games的使命不仅是自身盈利,也包括帮助其他开发者成功。

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Shownotes Transcript

Today's podcast is an in-depth discussion of Apple's App Store rules and how they... wait! Don't leave!

I could try to tell you why Apple's App Store rules are important to both Apple and the digital economy (sadly, I just realized I've been covering them for nearly 15 years, so they better be important). But a better messenger for that task is Tim Sweeney, the CEO of Epic Games - the company behind Fortnite.

Sweeney has spent 5 years fighting Apple in court - and by his estimation has sacrificed $1 billion in revenue - over the way Apple runs its App Store. For most of that time it seemed like a futile effort.

But last week a federal judge handed Epic what could be a huge victory, and could potentially cost Apple a meaningful amount of revenue. Apple is going to appeal that ruling, but for now, Sweeney sees this a win for his own company, and many other developers who've chafed at the fees they have to pay Apple every time a consumer wants to give them money.

And if you think none of that matters to you, a normal person, Sweeney is happy to explain why (he thinks) you're wrong.

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