Cold IPA with John Palmer – BeerSmith Podcast #320
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John Palmer joins me this week to discuss cold IPAs. This is Beersmith Podcast number 320.

This is the Beersmith Home Brewing Show, where brewing great beer is our passion. If you want to take your brewing to the next level, visit beersmith.com, where you can download a trial version of our Beersmith software, subscribe to the newsletter, and get dozens of free articles on home brewing. And now, your host and the author of Home Brewing with Beersmith, Brad Smith.

This is Beersmith Podcast number 320 and it's late February 2024. John Palmer joins me this week to discuss cold IPAs. Thank you to this week's sponsors, Craft Beer and Brewing Magazine. They recently added a new collection of more than 500 beer recipes from pro brewers to their site. And most let you download the Beersmith recipe file. The new Craft Beer and Brewing recipe site is at beerandbrewing.com slash beerrecipes. Again, that site is beerandbrewing.com slash beerrecipes.

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And finally, a reminder to click that like and subscribe button on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, or whatever platform you're listening on. Clicking those buttons is a great way to support the show. And now let's jump into this week's episode. Today on the show, I welcome back John Palmer. John is the author of the top-selling homebrew book, How to Brew, as well as a definitive book on brewing water and also brewing classic styles. John, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. How are you doing today?

Great. Hey, Brad. Good to see you again. Always great. John's coming from California today. I assume it's sunny out there, right? Oh, yeah. Sunny, 70. You didn't have, you guys didn't go through the hard winter, although I know you had the, obviously the awful fires out there. Yeah. Yeah. Winter hasn't quite started yet. It was, it got down to like, I guess, 40. 40? Wow. It's about as cold as it's gotten so far. But, yeah. I was in Vermont a couple weeks ago. It was four degrees, so a little colder, but.

Yeah. Yep. Anyway, right now, I mean, the, uh, with, with the jet stream this morning, you know, we're, we're pleasant in 70, but you go just to Nevada and temperature plummets dramatically. You know, Texas, we were talking earlier. It's like, you know, in the teens, uh, low twenties today. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. We've had, uh, we've had a real winter here in Virginia. That's for sure. A lot of snow on the ground.

And, uh, long cold, cold spots. It's, uh, been much different than the last two years. Anyways, John, uh, great to have you on the show. What, what projects you've been working on? I know you have a new book out, right? Yeah. Um, my latest book is called how to brew in your kitchen.

And I kind of describe it as an intro to Palmer book. You know, how to brew is pretty comprehensive. It's got to be somewhat weighty, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty darn big these days. So, you know, looking at the book market, which has really changed in the last few years, I

A lot of sales declining. I thought, I mean, we need a more approachable homebrew book. And so that's what How to Brew in Your Kitchen is. It's based on, you know, two and a half gallon or 10 liter batch size brew in a bag, no sparge that you can do on any kitchen stove or hot plate.

And it also talks about the all-in-one systems too, like grandfather and the anvil foundry and so on and similar systems. I think we've talked about this before. It has, people have trended towards smaller systems now.

Yeah. You know, there's so much availability of good beer these days, at least here in the U.S., that, yeah, you don't have to brew the 20-gallon batches we fantasized about, you know, 20 years ago. You know, these days, it's how much beer you can drink, you know, in a reasonable amount of time. And that's often that two-and-a-half-gallon batch size before you want to move on to something else.

you know, brew something else. So yeah, my idea was to with how to brew in your kitchen, just make a book that's much more approachable, much more, much simpler and a bunch of written bunch of recipes, including one for what we're going to talk about today. Awesome. Do you cover things like extract brewing as well? Yes, but briefly. Yeah.

Home brewing has really matured, you know, in the last 20, 30 years. People aren't doing extract brewing as much as they used to when we started. Yeah. For good or bad. And so, yeah, all grain brewing is really easy to get into, especially with brewing a bag and no sparge techniques. So I thought that's the method I'll baseline. Awesome. Well, good.

Well, today you wanted to talk about cold IPA, which is a style that I wasn't all that familiar with. Can you tell us a little bit about what a cold IPA actually is? Sure. Cold IPA has been described as a westier west coast IPA.

It is meant to be more crushable, but still really showcase the hops. It is an IPA brewed with, you know, 20 to 30% flaked adjunct typically, or it can be all malt as well. Firestone Walker does an all malt version.

uh, in the cold APA style, um, where they take through a multi-step mashing process to really drive the fermentability and get that final gravity down, you know, and make it a much lighter body in that way. But, uh, for most, uh, the, uh,

The brewery that kind of showcased it and started the style, they used the 20% to 30% adjunct to lighten the body and kind of pull the malt character back so that the hops really shone, you know, like a 7% ABV beer. Awesome.

I know you, this, I guess Cold IPA kind of has an interesting history. I wanted to kind of walk through that. You helped edit Greg Casey's five-volume set on History of American Adjunct Lager, and I think he just released volume two. So maybe that's a good place to start because this particular beer does have a kind of a history back to adjunct lagers. Yeah.

Yeah, that's the lovely thing about Greg's series on American adjunct lager. To realize that the United States has a real brewing legacy. We're so used to talking about, you know, British brewing and German brewing and Belgian brewing. And while when you and I first started brewing, we kind of poo-pooed industrial lager and, you know,

It's like, you know, near beer and kind of stuff. But actually, when you dig into it, you realize that, yeah, the United States really does have a real tradition and legacy when it comes to beer. And our beer style is adjunct lager. Now, we learned it from the Germans. They were the first ones to start brewing with adjuncts, at least, you know, for lager styles, you know, mid-1800s.

But, you know, they brought that idea to the states and the policy,

The consumer preference and the barley that we had here, the six-row barley, higher protein, higher enzyme, really lent itself to brewing those with that brewing method with adjunct. And so, yeah, American adjunct lager is our national style, if you will. And when...

In the late 1800s, early 1900s, up to like 1910, when adjunct lager was really growing, you had the influx of lager yeasts from Europe. And you had the advent of refrigeration becoming more useful and widespread, ammonia-based refrigeration.

I believe it was invented around 1859, 1860. And so by 1870 and then up to 1890, yeah, it was becoming commercially available. And of course, as time moved on, you know, came to work more and more. But so brewers were, you know, experimenting with these innovations, lager yeast, refrigeration.

They were brewing lighter beers. Their adjunct blogger was quickly taking the country by storm. And so you had brewers pivoting from their traditional ale brewing and saying, okay, how do we use these new yeasts? How do we imitate this style beer that everybody likes? So you had a combination of people...

Trying the new yeast, but not having the cold fermentation equipment, the refrigeration, you know, as I may out of their reach. So they're brewing lager yeast warm or they're using their traditional ale yeast and brewing them cold. You know, hey, this is our yeast. We're going to keep using it. We're going to use this new method. We're going to brew it colder.

And then you had the third category of what came to be called cream ale. And this was often where, you know,

Lager yeast warm, ale yeast cold, or a blend of the brewery's ale and lager products. And so cream ale is essentially kind of an in-betweener style. It is not as crisp as the lager, not as fruity or bold as their ale.

Kind of an in-between marketed as a smoother, mellower beer. And Cremale is kind of interesting to me. I actually grew up in Rochester, New York, and there was Genesee Cremale, which was a very popular style. I think it's a bit more of a kind of a regional Midwest kind of beer. Is that right?

Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, um, I think New York, uh, yeah. East coast, Midwest. Um, as, as we were saying, the, uh, the Genesis of, or the, not the Genesis, but, um, the evolution of American adjunct blogger, you know, um,

lent itself to the kind of the, at the same time we're creating this American adjunct lager style, you have brewers that are kind of piecemealing it. As I say, you know, lacquer refrigeration or, you know, sticking with their own yeast and whatever. You had cream ale kind of born at the same time. So you had American adjunct lager, cold, you know, colder fermentation, lager yeast, lagered

Very crisp and clean, 5% ABV, and then you had cream ale brewed with little alternative methods, but at the same time, a little different character because of the difference in either yeast or brewing methods.

And Cream Ale actually predated the craft beer revolution. It was available in the 50s and 60s and 70s widely by many of the major brewers, right? Yeah, yeah. It was a product that a lot of people liked, especially Midwest, East Coast. And it was billed as and advertised as, and this is kind of the fun thing when you read through Casey's books. I mean, he has...

The print advertising, the pictures, the magazine advertising that were used at the time. And it's fun to read, you know, a new light beer, smooth, mellow, not bitter. You know, all these buzzwords that we're used to hearing today.

but were actually in use in the 20s and 30s pre-prohibition and then post-prohibition, you know, in the 40s and 50s and 60s. It's the more, you know, kind of the more it changes, the more it stays the same kind of thing. Yeah, kind of interesting. So, yeah, I mean, it was, so now cold IPA, let's get back to cold IPA. Cold IPA is almost a spinoff of American cream ale, right? It's kind of brewed in the same sort of style, but using monoculture.

hop techniques. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, cold IP, this is where you kind of talk about co-evolution or

or convergent evolution. Cold IPA was essentially invented by Kevin Davey at Wayfinder Brewing. He describes their brewery as a predominantly lager brewery. They like doing decoction mashes on their lagers, and they're in Portland. And so as they're looking at their portfolio and what they like to drink,

They were kind of looking for a Westier West coast IPA. You know, we won't, they're thinking we want to brew, you know, a really crushable West coast IPA and,

using our techniques, our equipment, you know, our malts and so on. And so that's what they did. They, they took their house yeast, which is a 3470, uh, very, you know, the most popular yeast in the world, uh, lager yeast. Um, and they fermented it warm. Um, they allow, they, and I can get into the brewing specifics later. Um, but, um,

Yeah, they said, you know, let's take an adjunct grain bill. Let's, you know, lighten that body, bring the malt back, you know, dial the malt back so it's cleaner, crisper, drier, really let those hops shine. And in their evolution of that product,

They determined that, you know, it really didn't work as well at like a pale ale kind of gravity, you know, like a cream ale gravity, you know, 5% ABV. It really clicked when you got up to about 7% ABV. Now you have the perceived sweetness from the alcohol.

that is lending balance to the beer and lending balance to the hopping levels that they were using. So, yeah, it really is an IPA in its overall hop presentation and hop balance. But

But at a slightly lower ABV than you would picture, say, for a double IPA, 9%. They're at 7%, very crushable, very hoppy, and very drinkable. Awesome. Well, if I want to brew a cold IPA at home, what would my grain bill look like? Let's start with that. You mentioned a lot of adjuncts.

Yeah, so it's very much in line with the CREAM bill. Around 25%, 30%. 30% seems to be kind of the median adjunct level. CREAM ales themselves would go up to like 40% in some cases. So when you say adjuncts, are you talking about corn or rice? Oh, sorry. No, I'm just trying to…

Yeah. Flaked corn, flaked rice, both. Um, you can do with either one. I think flaked corn, um, is probably more accessible, uh, to most people. Flaked rice is certainly out there and, uh, a lot of different varieties of corn and rice that can be used. Um,

But they recommend just the kind of the run-of-the-mill flaked corn that you can get from BSG and so on. But another point they made is that you can't achieve the same character in the beer by using dextrose, such as you use in like a double IPA. Hmm.

You know, so you don't want a simple sugar. You want the flaked adjunct, the flaked corn or the flaked rice, and put it in the mash where you are getting some amount, a small amount of protein and flavor carryover from that adjunct. Does that give you the creaminess, I guess? Well, no.

I don't know if it's necessarily creamy, but some more mouthfeel, some more character than compared to, say, an American adjunct lager that is brewed with just base malt and a sugar syrup. Because that is the way that most American adjunct lagers are made today, with a converted syrup.

So they instead insist on flaked rice, flaked corn as a minimum, if not a cereal cooker with corn grits or rice grits as the adjunct.

So that's the adjunct and then the base, are you using pale malt or Pilsner malt? Using American two-row. One thing that the authors cautioned, or Kevin and the brewery cautioned, was that with this high adjunct load, you know, 30%, you want to make sure that your base malt has sufficient enzyme activity to really convert it all. And

Another key characteristic is to make sure that the adjunct you buy, the flaked grain in particular, has been properly pre-gelatinized, properly cooked, you know, in its flaking. So, because otherwise it just, it won't gelatinize, it won't convert well. Right. You have to use flaked or torrified, right, to get the conversion proper. Right. Yeah.

And, uh, so they say that American, you know, an American two row where you've got, uh, 11 to 12% protein, as opposed to a more German, uh, baseball with more like 9% protein, nine to 10. Um, and the higher enzyme, uh,

content of American two row works better for these adjunct style beers than a continental Pilsner malt or a even a domestic Pilsner malt or pale ale malt for that matter. They do there's a lot of

you know, of course, of individualism when it comes to the base malt choice. Some brewers, such as Firestone Walker, recommend adding a touch of Munich or a touch of carapils just to

out that malt character a little bit, give it a little bit of complexity and not just the baseline American two row. So, you know, if you're from a, for a home brewer, yeah, you could put in, you know, a couple percent of Vienna or

or Munich or pale ale malt or something, you know, the, to give it some complexity, but at the same time you want with the adjunct, you're allowing that malt character to take a step back and allow the hops to really shine through. Wow. That's awesome. Good.

Um, what does, uh, what is, uh, the hop techniques and hop, uh, schedule look like? Because obviously, uh, it's a fairly bitter beer, right? Yeah. So that, and that's where this really, you know, goes back to the old school West coast IPA kind of hopping. Um, for example, with the, the way finder, uh, cold IPA, um, they, uh,

You're using kind of a one-to-one BU to GU ratio, you know, bitterness unit to gravity unit ratio. Their OG was about 1070, and they were putting in 60 to 65 bitterness units as bittering, you know, 60 minutes right up front using a neutral hop like Magnum.

Firestone Walker uses Simcoe for theirs. You know, so a good classic bittering hop. Yeah. At 60 minutes. And then they would follow that up with like a 10-minute addition, you know, before the end of the boil. Using, you know, more of a New World or Pacific variety such as, oh, you know, Motueka or

mosaic or citra you know one of the newer files I guess right yeah yeah using those and then that's a 10 minute edition and then heavy whirlpool edition and heavy dry hopping edition so that's all together right yeah yeah so it's a lot of hops going in Firestone Walker commented that

their beers they notice that you know three and a half pounds per barrel is about the efficiency cut off at their brewery that they see in dry hopping so they'll dry hop like

like a three and a half pounds per barrel kind of rate. Um, if they, you know, any more than that, and you start getting diminishing returns in terms of, you know, hop character imparted to the beer versus hop character carried away from the beer by all that green matter. Uh, you know, when the hops are dropped out and the beer, the beer is clarified and packaged. Cool.

Well, the yeast and fermentation, obviously critical here. What yeast would you use and how do you actually ferment it out in this case? Yeah, well, 3470, the Weinstephan 3470 type yeast, it seems to be the favorite among craft brewers through this style.

And they recommend fermenting at warm, which is one of the key pros about 3470 is that it ferments clean at warmer temperatures. So they will typically start their fermentation. They'll chill the wort to like 50, 55, somewhere in the 50 to 55 degrees Fahrenheit or what is that, 15 to 17 degrees Celsius, something like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, where's that lower? Sorry. I think that's in 12 to 12 to 13, 12 to 13 Celsius. Um, yeah. And then, so start the fermentation cool, you know, and then let that fear free rise in the first few days of, uh, fermentation up to about 65 degrees Fahrenheit. And then they will let that, uh, they'll control the fermentation at 65 from there on out. Um, you know,

The, the time scale is going to vary a little bit between, you know, a home brewing size and a commercial brewery size. Um, but, um,

In the one case, they're talking about the end of day four to hit 65 degrees. So, you know, starting out somewhere between 50 and 55, allowing it to free rise, and then it would hit 65 by about day four. Hmm.

And that slow rise, that slow start to fermentation reduces the amount of byproducts that you get. It makes for a cleaner beer. And, you know, 3470 is great at cleaning itself up. It's a good diacetyl reducer. It does produce some sulfides, sulfides character SO2, which is kind of a hallmark of one of

of you know a lager type beer um but by uh starting cool and in free rise and then finishing 65 um and they also spun um at the end of fermentation and when they do their dry hop and they do also do that 65 you end up with a slightly estuary but mostly clean tasting beer um

And very clean tasting. No diacetyl, no fusils. It's 7%. It's still a very clean tasting beer. I find it interesting they're using a Weisse-Steffen lager yeast instead of maybe a traditional cream ale yeast, which might be a hybrid or mixed yeast. Yeah. You know, it's, I think...

maybe lessons learned over the last 50 years. Um, the 3470, um, is kind of, is just a powerhouse, you know, uh, yeast it's used. It's the most popular yeast in the world right now. And it was, uh, developed or isolated, I think in 1970. Um, and so it's just become, it's become very popular. Um,

because of its ability to ferment cleanly and consistently. So, yeah, I mean, you know, further back, you know, 40s, 50s, 60s, yeah, they were probably using other yeasts, you know, other lager yeasts or hybrid yeasts or for those breweries that, you know, made their cream ale by blending two other beers, like their ale and their lager, they would have used different yeasts. Interesting.

Well, do you have any tips for finishing and presenting this particular beer? How do you finish out the fermentation? I think you mentioned you kind of go into that 65 dry hop area. Do they do a cold crash? What do they do to finish the beer out? Yeah, techniques vary across breweries, but the general gist of it seems to be that

They, they're doing essentially a warm maturation, um, with the lager. So yeah, 65, uh, holding it there. Uh, they do, um, Firestone does a mid, uh, fermentation dry hop. They do a double dry hop. So they do a mid fermentation dry hop, um,

Wayfinder, I think, also hops in fermentation. They talked about eliminating hop creep by duplicating

doing that dry hop a little bit earlier when the Easter is still very active. Um, they also spun the beer at that point at, uh, you know, putting it, you know, at the end, this, at the end of fermentation, they're putting it under pressure 15 PSI, um, and allowing natural carbonation to occur. And that's also when they're, when they're adding their dry hops. And, uh, so, uh,

Any oxygen introduction that occurs at that point, the hopcrete is re-fermentation in the introduction. That slight amount of oxygen is going to allow them to reduce the VDK, the diacetyl, and so on, and have a clean beer going to packaging. At the end of that, they will...

rapidly cool the beer and fine it, centrifuge it, you know, whatever the particular brewery does to get it ready for packaging. But it's essentially a warm maturation followed by cooling to drop the yeast, drop any haze, and then package. Sure. Well, what does a Finnish cold IPA actually taste like? And how is it different from, say, a traditional IPA or a West Coast IPA?

Yeah. West Coast IPAs, you know, but to compare and contrast, you know, are, tend to be a full-bodied beer, all malt. They, you know, have some degree of color, although that, you know, in the last few, last five, 10 years, they've become more pale, you know, two to two and a half, five SRM. The,

The cold IPA has that same kind of color palette. So no caramel malts. But so the first difference is in the body. You know, the cold IPA has the 30% adjunct, a lighter body, a more crushable, drinkable beer quality.

about the same alcohol percentage as the West Coast. It's 7%. Same kind of hop character, same kind of hop schedule as the West Coast. But again, the lighter body gives it higher drinkability and more similar to what you find in a double IPA that's typically at 9% with the added dextrose. So, you know,

drinkers of double ipa and something like you know pliny the elder and so on uh know how drinkable that beer is even though it is very hoppy and uh nine percent yeah so john where does the name cold ipa come up because this is really more like a cross between a you know a cream ale and a west coast ipa

Yeah, I think the Genesis cold IPA name comes from Wayfinders Brewery, where they are predominantly a lager brewery, a craft lager brewery. And so they were saying, you know, looking at their portfolio, they're going to take a West Coast IPA brand.

brew it colder, uh, and, uh, with the lager yeast they use for their lagers and, uh, you know, allow that hop character really shine through. So I think that's where they, they came up with it. But as I said earlier, it's kind of a, a convergent evolution kind of thing, uh, between taking a cream ale and just hopping it to IPA levels versus taking a lager or a, uh,

Sorry, a West Coast IPA and lagerizing. Interesting. Are there a lot of craft breweries making this style? I wasn't that familiar with it. You mentioned Firestone and, of course, the original one was Kevin Davey at Wayfinder, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, it's, it's a fairly popular style. I've, I've seen it in international competitions several times over the last couple of years. You know, it got its start kind of in 2017, but I've, I've seen it as a category or at least in the specialty IPA category several times in the last few years. So I think it's pretty popular. I think it,

Like hazy IPA, I think it really occupies its own niche. It's kind of similar to brute IPA in that it has that lighter body and that drier finish.

Brewed IPA had its time in the sun, but it's, you know, a much more intensive brewing process and one that because of the enzyme use, you've got to be a little more caring about. Yeah. Careful with, um, whereas this is a much more approachable, uh, much easier to implement, uh,

change in style. And I think, you know, we've seen, so we, we, we've seen this evolution of IPAs from West coast to, to brute, to hazy and, or I guess hazy became, came before brute. And then now we're going cold. The West coast is, you know, has come back to some extent in the last few years, more people are brewing West coast again.

cold. And then I think, you know, maybe another five years from now, hazies will reinvent themselves or take on a new life. You know, it could be a cycle. Yeah. I do have a question though, you know, with the slowdown in craft beer, uh, have IPAs finally started to run their course? Uh, yeah, I've seen a lot more breweries brewing lagers for traditional lagers, for example, or is there more innovation coming in the IPA market?

Yeah, that's a good question. I don't have my hand on the pulse of IPAs as much, even though I do a lot of judging. Look at your crystal ball, right? Yeah. I'm always kind of just reacting to what's coming down the table. But I do think that, especially when talking to brewers, they all appreciate a great pilsner. They like that.

A pilsner is that pinnacle of beer and dry and crisp and high drinkability. Yeah, IPAs have their place in that they are bigger and bolder and more bitter. Now we're seeing with cold IPA, we're seeing

I guess a, uh, a bit of evolution of IPA to, you know, a, a more approachable, a more drinkable, uh, uh, aspect of the style. Um, what advice do you have for somebody that wants to brew this particular style? We walked through a lot of it, but I just wondered if there's any little gotchas or whatever in there. Um, I think, I think any home brewer can make this. I mean, it's, it's basically, uh,

you know, two row, 30% flake corn or flake rice, um, a 65 degree fermentation with a, uh, with, you know, uh, 34, 70 type lager yeast, um, which is available from multiple, uh, yeast, yeast houses under various names. Um, and then, you know,

to the way that the pros do them. They're employing, you know, spunding, they're employing double dry hop, and they have, you know, the equipment and the refrigeration to do all of this precisely and consistently. I think from a home brewer standpoint, you know, you hit the grain bill, you hit the hop schedule, you know, bitterness up front,

with, you know, good, good whirlpool and dry hopping. Um,

more maturation. So, you know, really eliminate the diacetyl and the acetaldehyde from the beer. And then, you know, chill it, clarify it as best you can. Gelatin is probably a really good fining agent to use in this case. And just enjoy it. I think it's a very drinkable, very, very enjoyable beer.

Awesome, John. Um, I wanted to ask you, uh, I realized in the earlier segment, we forgot to mention where, where people can find your new book. So can you mention the title again? Oh, people might be able to find it. Uh, it's going to be called how to brew in your kitchen. Um, it currently being published by camera in the UK. Um, I know they intend to market it in the United States as well. Um, and in Europe, um,

And then it's also being published in Spanish by Libros de Garda. That Spanish version should be available later this year, and that should be available in Mexico, South America, Spain.

I'm not, you know, I don't have details of everywhere they intend to distribute and availability and so on yet. Do you know when it will be available here in the U.S. or is it available on Amazon or anything? It just came out in the U.K. So I imagine it'll be a couple more months before it's available elsewhere. Okay, great. Well, we look forward to that. Thank you. Yeah. Well, John, your closing thoughts on today's topics.

Well, you know, cold IPA, I suggest the topic because it does appeal to my old school preferences in beer. You know, rather than using the new school hops, I'd use the traditional IPA hops, the C hops, the Cascade, Centennial, Chinook. The Simcoe is another great hop.

Amarillo and Citra, another, uh, really good hops that blend well with, uh, you know, the, the old school citrus hops, um, kind of help round it out, modernize that character a bit. So, uh, yeah, have fun with the style, have fun with the hopping. Um,

Um, I think that's one thing that you and I, we loved as home brewers and everybody loved with IPAs was the chance to experiment hops and lots of hop additions. And here's, here's a great style to do that with. Well, John, uh, thank you for taking time out of your busy day to talk with us again today. Really appreciate you being here. Thank you. Uh, today, my guest, uh, the one and only John Palmer author of how to brew, uh,

the book on water as well as the brewing classic styles book and, uh, in his upcoming brew book on stovetop brewing. Uh, thank you again, John. Thanks.

A big thank you to John Palmer for joining me this week. Thanks also to Craft Beer and Brewing Magazine. They recently added a new collection of more than 500 beer recipes from pro brewers to their site, and most let you download the Beersmith recipe file. The new Craft Beer and Brewing recipe site is at beerandbrewing.com slash beer dash recipes. Again, that site is beerandbrewing.com slash beer dash recipes.

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