7 Proven Ways To Overcome Anxiety | Martha Beck | Align Podcast #534
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Martha Beck. What happens when we lie? Oh my gosh, our whole physiology falls apart. Why? Nobody's really sure except that it is to our evolutionary advantage that we keep our ideas and our communication pretty much in line with what's going on in the neuroception of reality of our whole body.

So, and this is why polygraph machines work. The moment you lie, your blink rate goes up, your heart rate goes up, your hands start to perspire. Psychopaths can beat it, but even for them, it's more complicated. The brain has to work really hard to devise a reality that it knows is not true. So I used to, I'm a life coach, and I believe that if something's supposed to be useful for coaching lives, it has to work with any life. So I used to

coach homeless people on the streets of Phoenix, mostly heroin addicts. And I would ask them things like, what do you love in your life? They'd be like, heroin. What makes you happy? Heroin. And yet, if I tested their muscle strength by just pushing down on an arm while they said, I love heroin, they became incredibly weak. Their bodies knew that they didn't love heroin.

But their brains were completely addicted, right? And I would be able to just... They were practically floppy when they were lying. And it scared them to death because these were mainly guys right out of prison who relied on being...

on fighting. So it scared him. And it scared me too. That's how weak we get when we say or do anything that isn't right for us at the deepest level. Why would that be happening? Why would it create weakness? I mean, I can make some guesses from intuition. Nobody knows exactly why all of this works. But what we do know is that

To tell a lie or to keep a secret requires a tremendous amount of energy in the brain. I mean, think about it. You're lying. You have to create, and all situation comedies are based on misapprehensions or lies because once you tell a lie, you have to tell more lies to back it up because evidence in the real world doesn't back you up. So now you're trying to create a whole reality and remember the things that you've said that never actually happened and

And it requires so much energy that it robs attention to the rest of the nervous system. And things go wrong.

How are people, what if a person's living a lie that maybe is not so overt, such as, you know, stealing something or overtly telling somebody like I was here when I was actually somewhere else. What about when a person's living in misalignment within themselves or they're lying to themselves with like deeper layers of who they are?

Or what they're doing here, what their purpose is, or are they in alignment with their highest expression of their self? It kind of gets a little metaphysical and nebulous. This is right on topic for me. I wrote a book called The Way of Integrity a while ago, and I was saying that basically exactly what you're describing is true for most people in modern culture. I mean, think...

about the way we evolved to live. Just going a day without seeing the sun is so unnatural for us, and yet we do it all the time. The ways most jobs force us to operate are nothing like the way we evolved to live. So that's all really, really radically

it severs the self from itself. If when you are living in a way that isn't on track with what you believe to be true, I actually named six of the main symptoms. I've been doing this coaching stuff for 30 years.

And I'll tell you what happens first. First, you lose all interest in life. You become apathetic, depressed, angry. You feel negative emotion. If you still won't go start living the life you're meant to live, then you start getting actual physical symptoms like weakness, illness, autoimmune stuff. Then your relationships start to suffer. If you're not living...

your truth, you can't really be present for the people around you. Your career starts to suffer because there's no energy for it, especially if you're trying to push in a direction that's wrong for you. Then you can get addiction and then you get a complete loss of a sense of purpose. And it sounds pretty radical and it is, but I would say about 80% of the population is wandering around feeling this way right now. I feel it.

Really? And yet you're living so close to, I mean, I would assume given what you do, that you're living pretty close to your truth.

Yeah, I feel like there's old, there's still old knots and contractions within myself that kind of put up walls and resistance to really like opening to life for me. So I think there's still a lot of layers of like fear and contraction and anticipation of something bad, which keeps a certain level of like distance of like love and connection and opening to life as a whole.

Actually, Erin, I would say that you are a person who's doing your best to live in it. I mean, most people are doing their best to live in integrity, but they haven't really had a chance to stop and examine it. You've examined it. And I think you actually are living really close to your integrity in that you don't lie to yourself or other people. But...

I wrote a book after The Way of Integrity called Beyond Anxiety because what I found out was exactly what you're saying, that people who are completely and totally honorable and really doing their best to live everything in exact integrity, they were still harboring these tremendous pockets of fear and anxiety. And I was like, why does that happen? When you're telling the truth, everything relaxes unless these knots of anxiety occur.

And then in the years, that was right before the pandemic. And during the pandemic, anxiety disorder went up by a full 25% globally. Just a massive number of people with

clinical level anxiety every day and it's still going up and up and up. So I was like, holy smokes, I gotta figure this out. And I kind of did through brain science and social science and a whole bunch of other angles. - What'd you figure out? - Kinda broke the code. - What's the code? - The code is, it's really simple.

What would you say the opposite of anxiety or fear is? Ease, love, grace, gratitude, creativity, any of that stuff. But if you look at the neuroscience involved, the opposite of fear, of anxiety, is creativity. Oh, I said creativity. Got you. Did you really? Okay. It was in there. I mean, I just, I just, yeah, like machine gun every adjective of feeling good. So I kind of cheated. So there's like, okay, so your brain, not everybody can see this, but if you put your hands up, palms out,

like, and then just crunch your fingers over your thumbs. In the base of your brain is something called the amygdala, which just its only job is to make you afraid.

in case something unusual in the environment turns out to be dangerous. So anytime you see something, and by the way, everything with a spine has one of these. They are the thing that has kept creatures alive over the billions of, well, hundreds of millions of years on Earth. So it goes, ah, but that's all it can do. Because it has no language. It's very ancient.

But what happens in humans is we bounce that fear impulse to the neocortex, the front of the left hemisphere, and turn it into language. So we say, "Oh my gosh, oh I'm so nervous, the markets are down, I could be sick." We start to give ourselves reason to be afraid.

And that is mesmerizing to the little amygdala at the center of the brain, which starts to read the story of why you should be afraid as if it's the actual environment. So if I said to you, gosh, what if you died a horrible death of some awful disease and you got scared of it?

It would be because you're bringing that into language, imagining it, and your amygdala believes that you actually have that and you're dying. Now on the other side of the brain, here's the thing though. It's doing that to protect you. It's projecting out your potential demise kind of like in a stoic way to...

provide you with the resource to be able to survive and protect yourself. And it tells you that the way to survive is to get control. Control, control, control. So you get really scared. You tell yourself stories about why you should be scared. And then you try to control it. If you look on the internet, you will see...

all kinds of communities of people doing this. Here's why we should be very afraid. Oh my gosh, that's horrible. It all gets reflected back and then escalated. And I really do think that the, it's called anxiogenic data, data that, or any input that makes you afraid and more and more and more afraid.

It gets stuck in our brains in a little spiral called the anxiety spiral. And in our culture, it's become ubiquitous through social media. And that's why I think there's so much anxiety. Now, here's the kicker, though. This is only half the brain I'm talking about. It's the left hemisphere. In the right hemisphere, there's no language. So the right hemisphere amygdala goes, ah!

And instead of telling a story about it, the right hemisphere gets curious and then it connects with it. It starts to get information and then it starts to create. And I had read tons of studies showing that when you get the slightest bit anxious, your creativity tanks. But I thought, what if they toggle? What if you get creative, your anxiety tanks?

So I started experimenting on myself and then with lots and lots, like hundreds of people at a time online. I'd say put in your anxiety score. We can do it right now. So if you think right now about something that makes you kind of anxious, anything from climate change to a family history of illness or whatever, your dog isn't well.

Just something that makes you feel like, so you found one of those pockets that's keeping you from fully realizing, you said, the totality of joy you could experience. I was anxious last night. I had a little moment of anxiety. It was good.

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Oh, no, I'm just, it was a little bit, you said before, I'm like observing, um, curious about what the Trump tariffs are going to do to the economy and to different like markets and such. And it was like in a place of, should I panic and kind of escape certain, certain markets because maybe it's going to go away or whatever, or is this like a time to just like relax and observe?

So I was going through like a micro moment last night of kind of like anxiety, which I think is excessive attachment. Me too. I mean, I think when a new piece of information like that hits, the brain immediately grabs it and tries to make us anxious. It's called the negativity bias.

I call it the 15 puppies and a cobra effect. If I gave you a box with 15 puppies and one cobra, where would your attention go? It has to go to the snake. We won't evolve very long. You won't have any posterity. So that happens. So go to that spot. And I know it was just a micro moment, but if you can find it in your tissues, I know you're a body worker. So you can find it somatically.

Then we'll do a little exercise to help gear up the right side of your brain, the right hemisphere. So tell me two things you like to taste. Acai bowls. There's a great place called Aplodare across the street from my house. I'm a big fan of acai bowls. They're a good time. I replaced the granola with peanut butter. It's nice. Other things I like. I like a medium rare steak with...

little balsamic vinegar and olive oil and salt. Okay. What are two things you love to smell that are not food? Uh, I like most of the flowers. There's one I like the most. Somewhere out there, petunias are going, who doesn't love us? Okay. So lilies, uh,

How about, let's say roses and lilies. What are two things you love the sound of? Waterfalls, ocean. Great. Two things you love to see? Sunsets. Sunsets over ocean or mountains. Okay. And then what do you like to feel with your skin? I like...

like soft fabrics, like silk and things like grazing over the skin. All right. So now conjure a scene as vividly as you can. You are watching a sunset over a vista of mountains. You can hear a waterfall. You can see the ocean. You can smell flowers blooming all around. You're having the most delicious acai bowl and a steak. You are...

feeling you have silk or very soft cotton clothes on, like a really soft t-shirt or even a silk shirt, and you can feel that, and you can taste the acai bowl, and you can taste the steak, and you can hear the waterfall, and you can smell the flowers, and you can see the sunset, and you're deeply in that scene. Now, how anxious are you? Yeah, that really reduces that significant amount.

Yeah, you can't really sustain as high a level if your brain is working to create a scene. And sometimes I do that with people and they say, yeah, but I made that up and my fear is based on reality. Actually, thinking about a stock market crash is just as imaginary as the little scene you just did. It's just that we imagine things that frighten us and then we call them real. We imagine things that don't frighten us and we call them unreal. Why not just switch it?

Because there are real problems in the world, really, really, really significant problems. But

Do you want to be addressing those problems from a place of panic and despair or from a place of calm and creativity? If a person is so far off track or out of alignment within what would be their most expressed self or actualized self or realized self, whatever language, what would be the process in beginning to turn the ship?

towards something that creates a more enlivening life. I'm so glad you said the ship because my favorite metaphor for this is trim tabs. Are you a sailor? I've sailed. I'm not a sailor. Trim tabs, I don't sail at all. I don't know anything about boats except this.

Have you seen those massive cruise ships like that are as big as like Manhattan? These things are huge. Have you seen them? Yeah, they cruise by. So I moved to South Beach recently. And so I go to this place called South Point on Sundays. And there's like a humongous like 20X the Titanic that cruise by. It like blows my mind every time I see it. It's literally like it's like a star machine that exists. It's like another planet. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, the rudders on those things are so big that it would take so much energy to turn them against the water that it would actually snap the rudder off. So on the back of the rudder of those ships is a line of little mini rudders. Some of them are only six inches wide. And when the captain turns the wheel, it's the trim tabs that actually turn.

And then they disturb the water currents in a way that makes the big rudder able to catch on to the turbulence. And then it turns and then the whole ship turns. So try to make a massive change and your rudder snaps off. Make incremental changes. I'm sure you've told this to many, many listeners many, many times. And you find the whole ship turning around. So for example, if you spend...

Three hours a day feeling anxious. Take five minutes in the center of that. Do some breath work, like the breath work you just taught me before we started this. And then start to invent something that pleases you. Because creativity, the whole operation of the right hemisphere of the brain,

Doesn't just mean painting, drawing, music and all that stuff. Making a sandwich is creativity. Making, plotting a route to run is creativity. Finding a new way to

Wear your shirts. It's creativity. Everything. Even just before this, I cleaned my house a little bit and I felt a lot better. So there's a couple dishes and I got some little whatever organic spray stuff in front of the counter. You're not going to see my house, but you're kind of in my house a little bit. And so I feel like a better version of myself knowing that the house behind me is clean, even though you're never going to see it. It's gorgeous too. No, it looks immaculate from what I can see.

Yeah. So anything that makes a positive change that you think I would like that to be different and now I'm going to make it different. That's creative. And animals can't do that. Animals also don't get stuck in anxiety because they have anxiety.

genuine, healthy fear. So I want to distinguish between anxiety and fear. Fear is when there's something dangerous in the room. And like the first chapter of Beyond Anxiety, I was sitting in my favorite place in Africa at Londolozi, this game preserve. And yeah, that's where I wrote the first chapter of this book. And as I was getting started, I heard very close to me, I mean,

And I didn't do that very well, but it was it's an alarming sound because it's a leopard calling. And I was in this cottage and it had a screen door and the leopard was literally almost touching the screen door. And I didn't know that there was a screen. Oh, no, I thought I thought there was glass. That's what it was.

And because it was clear that there was no glass between us, I thought the leopard was in the room and was like huffing at me, doing this territorial chuff. And I literally felt myself propelled straight upward by my, this huge rush of hormones and

But within half a second, I had seen the screen. I saw that he was calm. I watched him walk away and I was completely relaxed again. That's how animal fear works.

Danger, action. Oh, observation, no danger, relaxation. Only humans sit around going, look at me, there's nothing here to hurt me, but the stock market could crash and they're going to come take my tulip bulbs, whatever you fantasize is.

people are going to do to you that's bad or nature will do to you that's bad. It's as if it's already happening. So where fear is like being shot from a cannon, it's like, bam, do something, done. Anxiety is like being haunted just endlessly. They're coming for you. You're going to get hurt. And it's not, we don't need it.

We really don't. How does one begin unpacking that? Because I feel like a lot of people are so habituated and feeling anxious, they wouldn't even know how to differentiate their anxiety from themselves. Yeah. A really good way to do it, and I don't know if every listener can do this, but they're your listeners, so they probably can. The first place is to get really still and look for areas in your body where you can feel...

Let me step back one further step. Find any anxiety that you're feeling. Like when you had that micro burst of anxiety about the market, which I shared with you,

Where does it live in your body if you track it to its source? That's like all in my head. It's all garbage. It's not like hard or stomach or whatever, which ultimately it's coming back to a feeling of safety, like money and numbers. It's all stories. It just comes back to like deep carnal mammalian, you know, safety, binary safety, safety, you know, or threat stuff. But for me, a lot of that is just like analytics in my head. It's like it's like it's like divorcing from the body.

And that's the way the left hemisphere loves to try to feel safe.

The word divorce is really interesting because it does try to separate, and yet separation is the root of suffering. In The Way of Integrity, I use Dante's Divine Comedy as a model, and it's an incredible psychological tour de force, the Divine Comedy. And he talks about the ultimate suffering, the Satan figure as this monster who's frozen in a lake of ice, he can't move, and his name is Dis. And Dis simply means separate.

So there's this part of us, the left hemisphere is very analytical. It says, I can control everything. I'm going to control everything. Just freeze it all here and then I'll be better. And we end up drifting, feeling pointless, aimless, purposeless, and really self. What do we do from there once we observe and isolate and kind of like materialize the sensation in the body? What do we do from there to start to bring more integration or ease within the sensation?

Great question. We listen. So we invite that part to speak. So I spent, I had massive, massive anxiety my entire life. I mean, I was, I remember being paralyzed with anxiety one night before my birthday thinking, oh my God, I've been here so long. I'm not getting anything accomplished. I was turning four. I mean, I was incredibly anxious. So

It's probably more like your mom or dad was incredibly anxious. Oh, they both were. Yeah. So you're just, you're like, you're perpetuating that. Now you're like, you're like doing their work for them, essentially. And if you, if you happen to be an emotionally sensitive or intellectually sensitive kid, or you have some trauma, which I'd had,

It's just, it is practically a biological certainty that you're going to develop some anxiety. So the way most Westerners approach this is fight, fight, fight anxiety. It's a disorder. We got to, you know, medicate it. And I'm a huge fan of medication, but sometimes it doesn't work. So, and the idea is that the mind and the self is a machine because we treat everything like machines and it's broken because we're anxious and we have to fix that.

But the anxious self is not a broken machine. It's a frightened animal. So once you have established that part of you is a frightened animal, the thing that interests me so much, Erin, is that every single one of us knows how to treat a frightened animal. It is primordial. If you found a miserable shivering puppy on your porch tomorrow and you decided you wanted to help it,

you would know exactly how to move toward it, how to talk to it gently, softly. It doesn't know words, but it likes the sound, right? Like you'd say things like, I got you. This is okay. I'm not going to hurt you. It's okay. It's okay. You'd actually bring your voice down in pitch, in speed, and in volume. And you would move gently and slowly, and you would empathize with the puppy's point of view.

This happens to be the way Chris Voss, who is the FBI's top hostage negotiator for years, that's how he tells you to address like a hostile psychopathic terrorist. Because it's never a sophisticated intellect being afraid. It's always a frightened amygdala. I want to take a moment and share about something I have found to be very supportive for the health and vitality and elasticity of my skin today.

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and you're into like a reactionary state so you're in an argument with your partner or spouse or whatever that's what it's like you internally you seem like you're being logical or pragmatic or whatever but the reality is if you if you could see a video of yourself in a place where you're not actually reactionary you'd be like oh i was a animal in that moment but you're actually both of you if you were in like above a seven or an eight as far as like like

you're actually not speaking from the frontal cortex anymore. You're actually, it's your two injured animals fighting and barking, barking at each other.

And if I talk to you the way most people talk to me about their anxiety, I want to fight you. I want to bring you down. I want to end you. I don't want you ever again in my life. Well, that's not going to make you less scared. So that's one of the hardest disciplines I've ever learned. But I think it's actually I started learning it doing Aikido. Sorry, I didn't say that very well. Aikido.

The Way of the Harmonious Spirit. It's a martial art that is based on harmony with your own spirit and with the other person's spirit. I don't know if you've ever done it. A little bit. Yeah, it's very, very cool. You can do magical seeming things if you get the energy right.

Bend spoons, that kind of stuff. I mean, it's silly, but it works. And then it's kind of like, wow, I couldn't bend that spoon. And then I shifted my energy, my mood state and it bent. That's really weird. Have you actually bent a spoon? I've heard of, there's like, there's like, there's like bend spooning societies. People come together and hang out and telepathically start bending spoons together. Yeah, because it's so weird, Aaron. I mean, I was, I was writing a book on shamanism and I was at dinner with an anthropologist and he,

I wanted to know about shamanic practice in Mongolia. And she didn't want to talk to me about that. And she was like, you want to bend a spoon? And I was like, okay. And she said, yeah, all you have to do is drop into an empathic, empathetic frame of mind and get very, very peaceful within yourself. And then you ask things if they want to play with you or cooperate with you, and they will.

And I was like, okay, so I picked up this fork at the restaurant and I could not bend it at all. And then she started talking about something else. And I swear to God, it felt to me, something felt as if the fork had somehow connected and responded. And it just bent double like a piece of clay. And I was so freaked out. I was just sitting there in the restaurant going, oh my God, what?

And after that, you know, I went home and bent every piece of silverware I owned. And the problem is once you bend them, I can't do it without using my hands, but if you get into the right space, they bend. I bent soup ladles and a piece of rebar. Do you have any videos of this?

No. I mean, yes. Why the hell not? I want to see a video. If I could bend a spoon, you bet your bottom dollar I'm going to be posting an Instagram story about that. Here's why I don't post. I will do it. All the time when I go to speak live, people from the audience come up with a spoon and I'm like, okay. And I can't always because you have to be able to get into the right frame of mind. But the reason I don't put it online is it's so easy to fake. I would just have to get a real flimsy

Spoon and then pretend I couldn't so there's no way I could say look feel this try to bend this Could you send me a video this sure? Yeah, really? I don't mind ruining because I will pay for the spoon I will Amazon two-day delivery that that bitch to your house today. Oh my god I've gotten in so much trouble in hotels because people will come to hear me speak in hotel ballrooms and then everybody starts bending all the silverware and

which they can do because they get really relaxed and really into integrity. And then the spoon will bend. But if you're trying to bend it back, it's hard not to be anxious.

So a little bit of anxiety comes back, totally destroys the whole thing. You can't... Would you be willing to send a video of you bending a spoon and me post about it in a way to promote the podcast? All right. I'm going to hold this to you. I'm happy to bend the spoon. I mean, when I was...

I was showing my friends in Africa this and they said that some people had come through who could take a monkey wrench, like a serious piece of reinforced steel, and just stroke it gently like it was a monkey or something. And it would just bend downward. I can't do that. And it gets better if you practice. All of these things are about, they're all about rewiring your brain.

How do you explain that to a Western analytical skeptical mind? Well, I would many, many times I've just given somebody a spoon and said, try to bend that. They can't bend it. And then I say, all right, I'll do something like the exercise I did with you just now, but I'll add something like.

Think of a moment when you were with someone you love or an animal you love, which is less complicated, and just go deeply, deeply, deeply into the sense of connection with that other being. And then allow yourself to feel that way about the object you're holding.

And the whole, the room around you and everything, it can go on infinitely. So I don't even remember what I was trying to say when we got to this topic. The original thread that we've diverted away from, but I think this is interesting, was what are the steps a person can do after they come into like sensation of feeling the anxiety or fear or whatever it is within their bodies and where do we go from there? And I feel like we're still kind of on track because if we can bend spoons with our mind, that means that we could probably alchemize emotion.

Yeah, I can't do it just with my mind. Deepak Chopra told me that he knows people who can do it from across the room. And then he said, but they never do anything else. So yeah, it does relate because when we start, our culture tells us that- Do you think I could unbutton girls' tops? I don't know, Aaron. I really don't.

How to get a bra unclenched. Just wait until it's done with the book and I. Oh, God. But everything does get a lot easier, I have to say. And most of us, I mean, we live in this culture that tells us be anxious, be very, very anxious. And so we are. And so we're always sick and miserable. And what we don't know is that if we take the steps to rewire the brain to go into creativity, it blasts.

our entire sense of reality into a realm that is so much more

filled with magic and awe. One of the reasons I wrote this book was I have a friend named Jill Bolte-Taylor. Have you ever heard of her? She's been on the podcast. Oh, fabulous. Everybody you mentioned has been on the podcast so far. She's great. I love it. Well, I got to know her and she was talking to me about when she had, for those of you who don't know her, a left hemisphere stroke. She's a Harvard neuroanatomist who had a huge left hemisphere stroke.

And for a while, when she had the stroke, her left hemisphere would go on and then off and on, off. And she took a shower, trying to feel better, and she would see hand on tiles in shower.

And then the left hemisphere would go offline and she would just see clouds of energy, interpenetrating clouds of energy. So there was no boundary between hand and tile. There was no boundary between herself and the rest of the world. It's when you drop the boundary between yourself and the object that you can bend it because you are the same being. And there's a consciousness that pervades all of matter. I happen to believe, you know, I have read a lot of physics.

And I happen to believe that what Jill saw that day was not a hallucination. It was a clear description of the world without the separating and editing effect of the left hemisphere. And it was basically she was seeing there's...

I'm sure you've talked a lot about the double slit experiment and quantum mechanics. Yeah, it's been mentioned, but mention again. Yeah, so if you look at particles, they're little hard lumps of stuff. But if you do not look at them, if consciousness isn't trying to measure them, they diffuse and become energy fields. And they're both true, this odd contradiction at the heart of physics. And what Jill was saying was the energy part of it.

And so if you can climb, and I said to her, was there any anxiety in the right hemisphere? And she said, no, because there's no time. And fear is always of what's coming. Presence only gives you feelings of awe and gratitude and appreciation. It's when you go to that side that the spoon bends. Or... It's almost like you're bending your elbow. Exactly, yeah. And when I first started studying Aikido...

The Way of the Harmonious Spirit. They spend all this time working on energy, chi, or ki in Japanese. It's chi in Chinese. And you would believe, I went into the, I've studied other forms of martial arts for eight years. I go into the ring with this Aikido master. I bow. We bow together.

And go to engage. And I hit the floor so hard. It was like a religious conversion. I was. And he never came near me. And I was like.

That is very, very convincing, you know? And I try to get up and just wham, hit the floor again. And what? Really, because I mean, there's a lot of those videos that they don't look very impressive. And if you get like a, you know, I would like to see that one of those, something I have not seen in this video is I have not seen someone that doesn't, on the opposing side, that doesn't have complete buy-in from whoever, like the sensei or whatever it is. So I've never seen a outcast

actual fighter come in. It's always young, frail students or maybe not frail, but they're not intimidating figures. I've never seen a guy that actually fights Muay Thai come in and he's all teed up ready to Muay Thai fight him and that happened. I wonder if there's some kind of coherence thing happening there. I'm sure it's probably easier to create that

experience of weakness in the mind of somebody who doesn't feel very prepared. But I have to tell you, I was not expecting that. It just wasn't part of my field of reality that that could happen. What was it like? It was as though you were being thrown? I was just on the floor. It was the strangest thing.

sensation. I can't even begin to describe it. I was standing, I was ready. And then I was just on the floor and I couldn't capture the moment. And, uh, I kept standing up and falling and standing up and falling. It's kind of like when I learned to snowboard, boom, boom, boom. Um,

You see that with religious experiences as well, like Southern Baptists, they're gone and the minister hits them with the Holy Spirit and they get thrown back and all of that. What do you think is going on? How much of that is psychogenic, psychosomatic? How much is that placebo or nocebo? How much of that is actual...

material energy that could be measured maybe not with instruments that we necessarily have with like our westernized modern tools but how much of that do you think is objective material happening compared to psychogenic in nature those things

Well, here's the thing. I don't believe that objective perspective is possible in an ultimate sense because we could be imagining anything. And to try to divorce anything from a psychological component of it is to divorce our psyches from what we're experiencing. So now we don't even see it.

So there, to me, there is no such thing that is as an objective reality that is not tinged by our psychological belief set. For example, you can't get out of it. But there are things that can be measured and managed within the dream, within the dream with consistency that we have the tools to measure and manage, whether it's an illusion or not fair either way. But there are, there are certain variables that we can with consistency measure, manage, have instrumentation, say, Oh, there it is.

And I would not, I also believe there is a reality, like there is a truth. Like somebody asked me the other day, everything's subjective and everybody's story is what they truly believe. Then how can you differentiate between your belief and my belief? Excuse me. And this person happened to be black. And I said, well,

I used to not know there was racism in America to the extent that there is. I believed that it wasn't there. And you knew from experience that it was. And then I went out and found data. I went out and had experience. I went out and learned about it and realized, oh, yes, you're right. And I was wrong. Like there really is a reality and a non-reality. I'm not saying that everything is just this mushy reality.

like swamp of subjectivity. It's just, it's valuable. I think it's like the masculine and now we're starting to get derailed, which is I think fine and fun, but we can come back to, you know, the original train. But I think that it's, it is a very like relevant point thing that's happening and, and,

In the times of now. Yes. And I think having a balance of masculine being another way of saying masculine would be like containment direction. Like it's like the walls of the vessel. Yeah. And with the feminine being like the expression, like the fluid that's contained within it.

And if culture and society becomes all fluid and we're like, no, it's just subjective reality. So we all need to equally respect each other's objective reality. And everyone's subjective reality is now the law of the land. It's like, no, no, no, that doesn't work. Nope. It does not. It doesn't work. Like we need to have the containment that like, cause we need to actually have a, have like a, a vehicle to move forward in space with. Yeah. We don't need to, it just depends on what you, what you want. If you want,

If you feel like the system is flawed and you want everything to explode in chaos and you want the second coming of Christ and that's what you're looking for, then maybe you can find that. But if you want things to feel safe within the system that we're presently in, it's probably helpful to have some containment and some agreement. Here's what I think. I think that language can lie better than the body.

So if you've ever had Stephen Hayes, the author of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy on the program, you know that he talks about clean pain and dirty pain. That there is difficulty and stress in society that actually comes at you. If I hit you in my car, it would hurt and that's real.

And then there's dirty pain, which is things that we imagine about events. So clean pain comes from events. Dirty pain is what we imagine about events. So I think that fear, when fear arises, a bear is in the forest looking at you.

that is more real than if you're walking through the forest thinking a bear could come out from a tree at any minute and it could hurt me. They may feel almost exactly the same, but I think that fear is a response to reality.

And anxiety is a response to thoughts about reality. And when you're responding to thoughts that are divorced from reality, you are not in objective truth. You're in a subjectivity that is not even your objective perspective because your body knows the truth. So that's why I use the body so much as a lie detector. And so people who they think that their lives are going really well,

And I say something to them like, tell me you love your job. And they practically fall down. Their bodies are so weak. And I don't know how the manipulation of that goes with people doing magic tricks and so on. But I do believe that everything's permeated with consciousness and therefore responsive to the part of us that is consciousness. What would be the beginning steps for a person to start creating consciousness?

meaningful, tangible, objective or subjective changes in their life to go towards a life more in alignment with truth. - Great, we're back with the trim tab. - We're back in. - I love that. A lot of times I speak at, as I said, at hotels and stuff and people are sitting there in these straight back chairs and right in the middle of the speech I'll stop and say, is everyone comfortable?

And they're like, what? Yeah. I'm like, no, seriously, are you comfortable? And I'll say it three or four times until they start to get upset. Like, do the speech. We're comfortable. And then I say, how many of you, if you were home alone right now, would be in the position you're sitting in at this moment? And nobody raises their hand. And then I say, why not? And they have to think long and hard before someone says, it's not that comfortable.

So the problem is not that they're somewhat uncomfortable, that we can tolerate a lot. The problem is that they could look at me in clear daylight and swear that they were comfortable at the very moment that they knew they were uncomfortable. Yeah, they can lie to themselves and lie to you, which makes them weak. Totally innocently. But the body goes, no, no, no, no, no.

So you may have had the experience of a kid of being forced to say or do something to be polite that just wasn't your jam. You know, go kiss grandma on the lips or whatever you were supposed to do. And your whole body pulled back from it. And I think we spend almost our entire lives being told to do things that our bodies can't.

hate. And as a result, we go more and more and more dead. There's this study done in the 60s to detect geniuses, creative geniuses for NASA. And they went to these high-powered adults and they found about 2% of them ranked as creative geniuses. And then they gave, after a few years, they gave the same test to a bunch of four and five-year-olds and 98% of them ranked as creative geniuses.

So there's something in our growing up, in our education, in our socialization that forces us to go against our true nature. And that creates massive anxiety as a signal to us that something's wrong. It's like all the lights on your dashboard flashing. It's supposed to get your attention. And if you sit down and just say, am I comfortable?

Find the places where you're pretending to be comfortable, even if you're not comfortable. That is step one, to know your own comfort. If you can start to know that, you don't have to change your behavior at first. Just notice and offer compassion to the part of you that's been doing this for years because it means well. And just go, okay, that's really uncomfortable. I don't like doing that.

already you're going to be a bit more in the truth. The removal of judgment for that part of you that keeps you in misalignment or being polite or whatever is probably very valuable. Like, well, thank you so much because you've protected me and supported me for me to still be here today. Like, thank you. I don't need to chop you out. I don't need to cut you. Like, I love you. Thank you so much. Like, but like, I think we're good. I think we're in a place where we're good.

You treat it like the puppy you found on the porch. Oh, my God. You've been in the cold for a long time. Come on in. Thank you for trying your best. And just with compassionate acceptance of the part of us that's been betraying us in order to serve people around us, usually, always. Well, there's trauma as well. Sometimes we're serving our trauma.

But that again, we serve it in ways that we still try to act in ways that will please other people. That's the main reason we lose integrity. Then if we're kind and truthful, then our actions start to drift toward truth. The trim tab has already been turned and all the turbulence moves in different ways around us. At that point, people around you might say, I don't like what's happening with you.

And that's because they're the socialization system that made you the way you are. And so my partner says, you end up feeling good and looking weird. And if you commit yourself to your own integrity and to living without fear, there will come a time when you do things that look really weird because our culture is based on conformity and fear. So if you choose a path that

creates greater ease you choose to start making decisions that take you out of discomfort and discomfort is obviously a metaphor for all the different ways that you're living in misalignment in your life if you take that action then there will be a space which could be a vacuum which you need to fill with something or else your old habits will just fill back in

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is because of all the research around it. Some of that research has shown to boost ATP production, which is known as the energy currency of your body by 20 to 29%. It has also been shown to support mitochondrial health, which is where ATP is produced, as well as boost wound healing by 85 to 100% in human cells. You can go to their site, LeelaQ.com to check out some of the research. If you want to get

to try it for yourself and get a 10% discount, you can go to LeelaQ.com slash align for 10% off of your order. That is L-E-E-L-A-Q.com slash align for 10% off. Give it a try. And if you don't notice a difference, send it back. I think you guys like it. LeelaQ.com slash align. Though with a thing you need to fill it with, I call it kind internal self-talk.

The acronym is KISSED, which is so corny, but it works for me because there's this vacuum where you used to hate yourself, for example, and you fill it with kindness. And literally, like I had a terrible panic attack once. It went on for three days.

And the way I got out of it was just Tibetan loving kindness meditation. I just started silently repeating to myself, may you be well, may you be happy, may you be free from suffering, may you feel safe and protected, may you thrive, and whatever, any kind word. And I made every out breath a kindness toward me, my whole messed up self, and

And that works magically. That is way better than bending a spoon. Why do people have the capacity to hate themselves? How is that an evolutionary thing?

tool or benefit to us? How did that arise? Because we're social primates and social primates need to please the other members of the troop to survive. We can't survive on our own. And then we have the additional burden of being so completely out of it for the first few years of our lives, right? We are so helpless. And literally our survival depends upon being able to please the people around us. So they like us and let us keep feeding us and changing us and whatever. And

And so we start to think that when they aren't pleased, we are bad. So if an adult goes into a rage, a small child or a baby will not think, oh, he's totally loco. A child will think, what did I do wrong?

And if there's no answer, if the child did nothing wrong, the child is that thing that I said before, the flash of alarm is then explained in language. And the language will always defend the socialization. He's mad at me because I'm bad. And then we internalize I'm bad. So if you have been in difficult situations with people who were wounded, who were not well,

You probably took in all of their wounding, identified it as something bad about yourself. And because it's alien and destructive, you don't like it. And it doesn't like you either. So you get into this fight with your own history of socialization. And the way out is kindness. Are there struggles you still experience within yourself or points of friction or dissonance within yourself? Oh, yes.

why would I be alive? I mean, I think my mission in life would be dead if I reached that point. And I've known people that I really think are enlightened and they're still like, as one woman put it, cleaning out the cobwebs because the brain is... The only people I trust that are in the realm of enlightened are people that laugh a lot. If they're just a silly bitch, I'm like, okay.

I can buy that. But when someone's like stoic and enlightened, I'm like, I think you're still in the work, bro. I think you're, I think you're still in the muck. That, okay. That is a serious tell because it's, I had, I had one of those white light encounters during a surgery once and changed my whole life when I was 29. And, um, a lot of, a lot of anguish and, um,

this light came and connected with me and the feeling of joy and beauty and love and everything completely and totally indescribable, very vivid. It's like it happened yesterday. And I was unconscious. I was anesthetized, but I could see everything. I could see the room. I had my eyes closed. I could see the room. I could see the lights from the surgery. And then this light appeared that was so much brighter than all of them. I mean, so much brighter. And when I felt it touch me,

there was like this explosion of laughter and delight. Just laughing and laughing. It's like the whole universe was laughing. There was so much joy. Yeah, and if anybody says they're enlightened and they don't have at least a healthy serving of that, I'm not in. Yeah, I could become emotional even just like thinking about how much joy...

exists just directly on the other side of the veneer of all of the stress of who you think you are and who you think you're supposed to be and the things that you think you're supposed to be stressed about and think you're supposed to be afraid of. It's literally, it's like the veneer is like, you know, micrometers. And it's just the other side of that. It's like, ah, okay. That's this like orgasmic, loving, bliss, joy, which you don't need to live in that, but just know that it's, it's just behind the window. I know what the

- You cannot live in it. - I mean, I'm saying all the time, like sometimes being competition, sometimes wanna, you know, like there's a lot of different flavors to reality. - Yeah. - But to not know, I think that's probably a really great like travesty to not know that that does exist within, I would presume every sentient being. - Yeah, and I think animals feel it. You see YouTube videos and you, like I watched a crow on a squished plastic cloth cup

He found this flattened cup and he was using it as a snowboard. He would carry it up to the top of the hill and slide down. And to me, that is the divine right there. And it's in everything. It's in the cup. It's in the snow. It's in the crow. It's in everything. And you're so right. It's microns away. And I actually think that even though I'm not really a physical literalist, I think the microns are in your head.

You really just need to get out of this little anxiety spiral that forms because of this evolutionary quirk in the brain. You have to trust it's safe to feel good. Oh, yeah. I think that's it's like it's I don't trust that because if I if I just feel good, I'm going to get eaten. I'm going to die. I'm going to be weak. I'm a pussy and be soft. I'm going to like not going to be I'm not going to be respected. I'm not going to be loved. I'm not going to be. I need to defend. I need to defend my throne no matter how no matter how deprived or

royal or whatever it is like whatever it's like i need to defend this position and that becomes a broken software system that just pushes the world away from you and then and then you end up perpetuating or making like your your fear become a reality because you like that's the way that you treat people in the way you treat the world that's your relationship to the world and then you get your bias gets confirmed and you're like oh cool i'm right brilliant you just said it all that's perfect

And if you can get out of that and stop being King Midas who's starving to death in a palace of gold, and you can just touch the other side of things, this extraordinary, miraculous existence where nothing is the way you thought it was and everything is joyful, I really do believe that is true. I believe that there is a reality and that is more real than the life we call real where we're always miserable.

And the joy could be just compassion for the moment or the person or the depravity or the anger or the rage or the murder or the hostility or the war. Like it can be there can still I think that that's a big thing. What do you think of compassion? Like compassion is a tool. I think it's it's absolutely important.

crucial and fundamental to who we actually are. Have you had Dick Schwartz on from internal family systems therapy? No, but that'd be a good one. Oh my gosh, she's so good. It's such an effective therapy. And it's just you treat different parts of yourself. Yeah, like they're complete people. But and we all have different fractured off parts of ourselves. But then

After a while of talking to yourself kindly, you come to this part of the self that Dick says is the same in all people. And he'll say to people, what part of you is that? And they'll say, that's not part of me. That's what I am. And he remembers it with eight words that all begin with C. So compassionate is one. But we all have a part that's compassionate, clear, confident, calm, courageous, creative, connected, and

and curious. So those are the eight qualities that he thinks are truly the essence of every human psyche.

when everything's healed up, you have those things. So compassion is there. The reason I focus on kindness is that I found if I say to someone, be compassionate, they would get really performative. Oh, you poor thing, because there's this sort of profane feminine soothing quality in our culture. Oh, it's rescuing and sort of

You've been so traumatized and repeating it over and over. I think more sincere compassion is genuinely feeling like you have to just feel it. You don't need to say anything. It's just to be able to like, I can feel where you're at. A hundred percent. And I just, because there's that linguistic connection, I think compassion is a thousand percent fabulous. But when I say to people do something kind, there's more, even if they don't feel it,

They can like say things to themselves that are nice. I didn't feel compassion for myself when I had that panic attack. I hated myself. But when I started saying, may you be well, may you be okay, may you be free from suffering, a part of me detached from the self-loathing and was able to act as if I were compassionate. And that's how I found my way back to compassion.

And I did it through kindness. So I like what the Dalai Lama says, that his religion is kindness. And he says, it's very rare for me to be able to be completely kind for a day. That's beautiful. Something that I wanted to talk about, we're starting to run lower on time. So there's a few things I wanted to talk about.

the value of grieving. And I think that grieving is something that's particularly for men, but I would assume people, I can only just speak for men or myself. We're more alike than different, I think. Yeah. Yeah. But so I think the pressures on men and women might vary a little bit. Yeah. The socialization is worlds apart. Yeah. And so that, so, so, so that they, uh,

What happens to a person when they are carrying ungrieved emotions? Breakdown. A gradual, miserable breakdown. And

It's interesting, you know, the grieving cycle, it has grief and it has anger in it. And you can't, if you've experienced a loss of any kind, any significant loss, you actually can't heal without feeling the emotions of both grief and anger. And one thing that I wrote a long time ago is that therapists' offices are full of women who need to rage but can only grieve.

And prisons are full of men who need to grieve but can only rage. Because when you take a baby and it's crying and people think it's a boy, they'll say it's angry. If they think it's a girl, they'll say she's sad. And those are the permissible emotions. But if we don't, there's an incredible story told by Pema Chodron where she had a friend who was on death row. And one day, one of the other prisoners learned that his grandmother had died.

And he couldn't let himself grieve. So he got in the food line at lunch and then he just blew up and started just bashing people, just raging and raging. And they all knew, these prisoners knew that his grandmother had died. And the guards started coming in with clubs and stuff. And the other men covered him and kept the guards away. And they said, don't touch him, don't touch him.

And this man who sent the letter to Pema Chodron, he said all of them were crying. I just wish they could cry before they end up in prison, you know? Yeah, that's something that I... How does a person begin to... That person who's in that position where he is using anger as a vehicle to be able to express or kind of like...

off gas or diffuse some of that internalized energy, he probably doesn't have the resources to be able to actually begin the process of like integrating those parts. For a man, if you're working with a man, what would be like questions you would ask or

How would you work with a guy? I guess we're a girl, but I'm kind of asking. No, no, it's different. There are different wound patterns and men are different from each other, but you're right. There's a lot of similarity. I would say, have you been on the hero's quest? Have you been to the catabasis, to the descent below all things? You have to go on the road of trials until you sink below all things. That is the way men have gone out to change and change

become enlightened in every folk story ever told not not all of them but um joseph campbell's model of the hero with a thousand faces and so most men can tell me about their anguish and their rage they feel strong yeah those emotions feel strong exactly and yet if i listen to them

I don't have to say anything. I mean, you just project the same kindness that if you're in kindness to yourself, it sort of pulls people into a kind space. And so as they tell me about their rage, a lot of men stop and just spend. I've had guys sit in my office and spend a full hour just trying not to cry.

And, you know, part of me is going, oh, I'm not going to judge you, man. Like to grieve is strong. Like it's the willow that bends so that it doesn't break in the wind. So if you can find a container, a person, a therapist's office, a 12-step group, fight club, whatever it is, and you can actually let yourself feel the horror and the sorrow of the dark

places you've been pushed to go, that is when you become the god. You face evil and you become someone who's completely in touch with himself, and at that point you start to rise again. In Dante, he goes all the way down to the center of the earth, and he's crying and crying and crying, and he talks about it, because he's seeing people suffer in these horrific ways.

And he gets to the center of the earth and his guide says, "You have to keep going down." And he says, "There is no more down, that's the center." And he has to climb on the monster's body to go down through the center of the earth. And at that point, he's going the same direction, but he's going away from the center of the earth. So he's going up without having changed. Goes all the way through and comes out. And he says, "And so I came forth and once again beheld the stars

And that's how it is if you can allow the full range of grief, if you're a man, of anger, if you're a woman. And a man can hold, I can't. We can't really say that. We're all afraid of each other's anger. And many of us are terrified of each other's grief. So you have to find someone who's comfortable with both because no one gets out of this by themselves. Self-help is a lie.

How do you convince a modern man that it is safe to express vulnerable emotion in front of a woman without her perceiving you as being weak and leaving you? Well, first of all, be very careful because some women are that shallow. It's not like all women are great.

But the vast majority of women will not judge you because we've been given permission to grieve. So it's no big deal. Now, people break down and cry and then they say, I'm so sorry I came unglued. And everybody's like, well, you're fine. You know, I cried. I cried six times before breakfast today. But what I would do is send them into grief.

into a road of trials. I would tell him to go with my friend Boyd to go lion tracking. He said, you know, Boyd and had him on the podcast. Go lion tracking with him out where you have to find your own food and sleep on the ground. But go out and face the horrors that you've encountered in your childhood when you were too small to defend yourself. And you will know that it is time to share when you want to share.

Never share if you don't want to, because your body is wise and it knows and it's not going to go and kiss Aunt Phyllis because she's creepy, right?

Don't share with people if you don't feel safe. But when the environment is safe, you will find that your body wants to talk. It feels like for men, the way that it feels to me in my experience with myself and just like observing, is it feels like there's almost a certain level of, like you need to earn your...

merits to be able to be soft and vulnerable. Like you need to be mad enough and strong enough and stable enough and contained enough and have enough scars and seen enough things to also show and express that really soft, vulnerable side. And if, if a man is all soft and all white underbelly and not very contained and not very structured and hasn't really, you know, seen, seen some things, um,

and they lead with a lot of vulnerability, I feel like that will usually turn a woman off. I think it would turn anybody off because it's not true.

It doesn't feel true. Yeah, get that away from me. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Oh, it's creepy. It's so creepy. Because we can feel each other telling the truth or not telling the truth. And that kind of squishiness that I often encounter in self-help circles is just like, yuck. There's nothing more dangerous. There is no predator as dangerous to a human as another human who is lying. So yeah, we are

our lives fall apart when we lie and if somebody's lying to us like that kind of dude would be that all the alarm bells go off the pain that that that that person experiences because you can't measure one's pain it's it's it's probably you know i don't know about comfortable but like the pain that they experience is very real i just feel like there's something about being the a man that in order for to have like the reflection of respect

the world and respect for yourself like you you know internally you need to put work in and you need to get strong and you need to get stable and you need to like like you need to fucking work yeah you need to work until you've got nothing left you've got to work until you are so tired of work that you can't help feeling all your feelings you burn it all up and

I always say burn every bridge but love. And men and women do it in different ways. And your way is the road of trials as a physical act. And I think our culture has taken that away from men to such a large degree. Nobody, you know, the male body doesn't have to, it's not meant to be in a fluorescent lit cubicle somewhere.

It's meant to be active. We're all meant to be active in nature with all our senses moving and having an authentic experience. And that's why we're all so anxious because we don't have that. And that's what we evolved to have. And we need to get it back. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this.

conversation. That means a lot coming from you. So people, if they want to go deeper into your work, where could people go from here? MarthaBeck.com. Yeah. And I will try to remember to film myself bending a spoon. Bend the spoon. I am a highly skeptical, objective, overly analytical, dry, dead on the inside male.

So I need to see data. Now you're lying. And also your, your, uh, the most recent book is called Beyond Anxiety. Is that correct? Beyond Anxiety. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Aaron. I appreciate you. I look forward to getting to continue this conversation again. Uh, thank you all for tuning in. That is it. That is all. I'll see you next week. Hope you guys enjoyed that conversation. I want to invite you over to the Align Podcast YouTube channel if you want to see the

the quality of both of our skins IRL or as close to IRL as you can on the internet with video and check it out subscribe leave comments love reading the comments over there and also if you have interest in improving the quality of your skin they did give us a discount code at one skin which was kind of them you go to one skin.co slash align I believe you get 15% off your order

which is pretty cool. So if you want to try it out and get yourself a discount, jump over to their one skin.co slash align. I appreciate y'all. That's it. That's all. I'll see you next week.