In Good Times and In Bad
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Dr. Laura's Deep Dive Podcast. Okay, this is from Anne. Thank you for all you do to make this world a better place. I am trying to help a family member through a situation. Here it is. She's been married 25 years. Her husband is an alcoholic and has been sober for 12 years. When he was drinking, he was violent physically and also mentally physically.

abusive. In the last 12 years, he has become a different person. He has found his faith again and has proven he wants to be with her and their family. She has taken him back. He is still not drinking. I'm going to do a sidebar. This is this woman's opinion as to what's going on. Let me give you folks a hint. We don't know what goes on behind closed doors. That's just a hint.

She cannot, now this is Ann's opinion, she cannot get past what he did to her in the first 12 years and has recently asked him to leave. He is devastated because he has changed for the better. Is there a way to forgive someone for being violent and mean and move past this in the relationship?

I don't know if I'm wrong for saying that you took vows to be there for better and worse, and you need to forgive. I want to say and do the right thing for her, but I need your advice, please. So I read this this morning, and I was going to forward it to Dan and bring her on the air, but she's not the one going through the problem. So I'd ask her to call her friend, put her friend, and that we could, so I'd know more. You got it, right?

But then when I read, I don't know if I'm wrong for saying you took vows to be there for better or worse, and you need to forgive. That's the part that really went, whoa, is that what it really means? So I want you to do an analysis, and I want your opinion, okay? I might ask you some questions about your opinion, but I don't plan to argue.

Because I really am just searching. I'm dying to hear after 50 years of being on air, and I know nobody listening has listened to me all 50 years, but after whatever amount of time, how you perceive this situation. So here it again, it is in a nutshell. Married for 25 years. First 12 years, he beat her, humiliated her, degraded her, was mean. Suddenly he finds God, goes to church,

And according to this letter from the friend, he's just a better person. And so 12 years after ostensibly getting clean and sober and making a transition, and by the way, that doesn't happen overnight, she has asked him to leave. What's your opinion? Should she stay or should she go? All right, I'm just going to take you in order that you came in. Peter,

What's your opinion? Dr. Lohr, an honor. Absolutely an honor. Dr. Lohr, this is the way I would look at it. If they both found...

Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. This is just simplifying it. I think it'd be to the degree of their faith in God and their faith in the sanctum, the sanctimony of marriage. And that's like it. That's a starting, I mean, that's if I would talk to people for 15 minutes face to face and I could, because it's 12 years, she's either lost her,

her ability to forgive him through Lord Jesus, or she has lost her faith in God. Something happened. It's 12 years, Dr. Lori. You're right. Sobriety, these things do not happen overnight. It's a struggle every day. I almost feel like something's missing. Okay, so you're saying if she still was embracing Jesus, then she would forgive him for beating the crap out of her for 12 years.

And when we say beat the crap out of her, I don't think any marriage should have to go. You know what I'm saying, though? No, I don't. I don't understand yet that Jesus would want a woman to stay for a decade and be beaten because she believes in him. I have trouble with that.

Okay, I get that. But maybe at that time, we were looking at these two people being in a totally different mind space, i.e. at this. If she had found, if she was, you know, very, her Christian beliefs are very strong. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I need you to stop for a second, because this is so incredibly one-sided, and you are male, so I don't know if that's relevant or not.

But for 12 years, Jesus and his life are not. He beat the hell out of his wife. So I'm trying to figure out how Goose and Gander are different. But I do appreciate the input. Gives me things to think about. Gail, welcome to the program. Yes. Go for it. What's your analysis and what's your opinion? Female, 66. My opinion is you can forgive him, but you don't go back.

There's no going back on this. None. I don't care. Why not? I don't care. There's no going back. Why not? I mean, he's supposedly totally different. It doesn't matter. He can be totally different and you can forgive and you can like him as a person, but you don't go back. Not in my opinion. Never. Because. Never. Because. I know, because.

Because it could always happen again or it doesn't matter because. The because is the damage is done. Damage is done. No, the damage is done. I like that. Okay. Thank you. Very good input. All right. Lily, what's your analysis and what's your opinion?

Well, I'm just a little lost on the scenario. Did she stay with him the second 12 years that he was... They've been married 25 years. The first 12 years, he beat her, was a drunk, and he was mean. Suddenly, I don't know what precipitated it, the letter didn't say, he stopped drinking and went to church. And 12 years after, quote, he stopped drinking on that day and went to church, she asked him to leave.

Well, why are we so focused on forgiving him and all the great things he's doing? What about the damage that has occurred for the wife, for the woman that has endured the beating? And, you know, something was in it for her that she stayed in for 12 years. Usually stop for a second. Stop for a second. Stop for a second. Pop psych says she gets off on it. That is bullshit.

Real Psych says she had a bunch of kids.

Okay. So she endured it, like you say, endured. And, you know, now we're supposed to be worried about him and his feelings and his findings. Good for him. But now it's a time for her to go on with her life and repair herself because she's going to have a lot of healing to do still, even though it was 12 years ago, because she obviously has never forgiven him. And how could she really? Because has she forgiven herself? Yeah.

She has work to do on herself. Good points, Lily. It would be very wonderful if all of a sudden, because he found God in 12 years, he realized what he did. Good for him. Let the next woman take that risk. I love that. Thank you, Lily. Well done. You guys are sharp. I'm really liking this.

I like to come up with stuff that I get feedback from you folks and how you think about things. Whether I agree or not is not even relevant. It's so interesting when we listen to each other, don't you think? Okay. Welcome to the program, and what's your opinion? What's your analysis? Well, I am a longtime sober alcoholic. On the third try of my first marriage, I've had the papers drawn up twice,

First time it was my fault. The second time it was her fault. Nobody gets into a relationship with an active alcoholic if they don't have their own set of problems.

So I know that, you know, most people that are in long-term dysfunctional relationships come to the marriage. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I don't want you to start sounding like me. Okay. What I want to say is, wait, wait, wait, wait. Dysfunctional it might be, but she never beat the crap out of him.

He beat the crap out of her for a dozen years. Keep that in mind. Maybe nobody asks for that. Children or no children, no self-respecting whole person would have put up with that for that long. OK, I don't care. She had. But the point is, the point is you're taking the position from an alcoholic. OK, so I get that. Now I want you to tell me, is it OK? She leaves him now.

That's a tough one. What is screaming out to me is that she needs to do her own set of work. Should she? I don't ask you to be my colleague, sir. I'm asking you to tell me. No. Is it legitimate that she leaves him? Yes or no? If that's what she needs to do to make herself whole, then...

I guess that's, you know, I would, you know, I am torn because I, like you, I believe that she has made a promise. And now the... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hey, do you hear the word no? No. I do not stand behind...

Vows that somebody breaches when they beat their spouse love honor cherish kind of excludes violence So no he broke the vows. Yeah, I agree with broke the vows so don't make it her issue But that's interesting how you both posited that and it shows if you're having a similar experience like you're the drinker and But you're sober now and your marriage almost broke up three times Well, that's a lot of turmoil

and problems that need to be looked at also. And sometimes, you know, after 12 years, people are so stuck in cement. But anyway, let's move on. You guys are doing a great job. But if you're going to drag me in, make sure you drag me in correctly, okay? I never support being beaten. John, welcome to the program. And what is your opinion? And what is your analysis? Should she leave? Is it okay that she leaves?

It's perfectly okay that she leaves. When he started beating her, he broke the covenant relationship. Like when you said to love, to honor, to cherish, he broke that covenant relationship. Right. That's pretty much how I feel. And I agree with everything that Lily said. Other than that, I really can't go beyond that. But she's perfectly okay leaving. Well, it's been 12 years of him being sober and nice.

He broke the covenant relationship. He should be blessed that she stayed that 12 years afterwards. Thank you. I appreciate your input. All right. Debbie, what is your opinion? What is your analysis?

Hey, Dr. Laura, I am completely with John. I feel like anytime anybody has taken to the offense that he did and created that drama and broke that vow, I think she has the perfect right to decide whether she wants to stay or go. And that's all within her realm of what she needs to do for herself. But Debbie, he's being so nice now.

I don't care how nice he's being because he wasn't so nice for so long. Okay. All right. Thank you. Okay. We're going to take a break. This is what we're doing in this hour. I'll be right back. Dr. Laura's Deep Dive Podcast. Dr. Laura's Much Deeper Deep Dive Podcast. Okay. This is what we're doing this hour. Got an email from a woman who's...

friend who's a woman, married 25 years to this guy, first 12 years drunk and beat her pretty consistently and was generally mean, although I think beating is kind of mean too. All of a sudden, mid-marriage, starts going to church, doesn't drink. Remember, this is a third party reporting this. So when you think of analysis, we still don't know what's going on behind closed doors.

Anyway, after 12 years, quote, of sobriety, quote, and being so nice, other people think he's just changed and he's so nice that the wife said, move out. She's done. So my question, and the writer wants to know, for better or for worse, shouldn't I advise her to stay? So I want your opinion. Sandy, thank you for waiting. What is your advice? What is your opinion? I have...

Absolutely. She, well, she can do what she wants, but absolutely she has every right to leave. And I'm surprised that she would have stayed longer, but I'm only thinking it's because she had probably children, which I still don't understand that, but that's probably why she did it.

And there can't be any trust there because, to me, there are certain lines that when you cross as a person, there's this evilness about you, and that would never go away. That's in him, and that could come back at any time. And there's no way she could trust this man. And I just think there's character flaws, and there's certain ones in certain people that when they show that, that you need to run and get away from somebody like that because that is just evil.

That's my opinion. I don't you can be capable of change, but there are certain things that you can't. So do you believe that certain things are unforgivable? Yes. Good. So do I. Thank you. And that's one of them. Play devil's advocate for a minute. Yeah, but everybody's telling her he's such a nice man now.

Yeah, that's funny. You know, the friend that wrote the letter, I thought it's funny. I really find it disgusting that people use religion to manipulate and use it as a tool. And that's exactly what she did. And that's disgusting on a whole other level. The whole thing, just I don't like the friend. I don't like the husband. And unfortunately, it sounds like this poor woman...

just is weak. I mean, and I don't mean negatively. I mean, she, he probably beat it out of her. And then she was a mother and had children to worry about and didn't know where to turn. And maybe she didn't have a good foundational family structure from before because me, that would never happen. That would just never happen. Let me tell you, but you know, these poor women that it does happen to, I, I just, I think that's just pure evil and I'm glad she left them. Good. Thank you, Sandy. That was very good.

So I'm going to play a little devil's advocate for you guys when you call. Lisa, what's your opinion? What's your analysis? Hi, Dr. Laura. My opinion is not everything is forgivable. And this poor woman is going to spend the rest of her life sleeping with one eye open, hoping to God he doesn't have another drink and come home and beat her up. She needs to go. But everybody says he's being so nice. Shouldn't she just forgive and forget? Forget?

You can't. You don't have to forgive and you're never going to forget. Not everything is forgivable. I happen to agree with that and thank you very much for your call. Let's start at the top again. Evelyn, welcome to the program and what's your opinion? What's your analysis? Thank you, Dr. Laura. My opinion, first of all, is that yes, you can forgive because forgiveness is not for the other person. Forgiveness is for you so you can heal because you need to let go of the garbage. But I...

I don't believe that she needs to stay. And, you know, people don't understand why sometimes women stay. It is not our job to judge them. It is our job to just help them if they're in our lives in any way. But, no, she can forgive him. Absolutely, she needs to because she needs to get rid of that. But to take him back and live with him, no, she does not have to be a wife to him. She can move on. But he's so upset. Yeah.

He's just destroyed. Okay. Well, the wonderful thing is that he has found the Lord again. And since he found the Lord again, he can go rest in the Lord and trust that the Lord will guide him into whatever path he's going to have. But right now, his consequence to the wrong that he did is he has lost his wife. Consequence. Consequence. Wow. Wow.

Yeah, you're the first person to use that word. Nice. Okay. Thank you very much, Evelyn. God, this is very inspirational and just remarkable. You guys are deep, deep. I like it. Chantel, what's your analysis? What's your opinion?

Yes. Thanks, Dr. Laura, for having me. My opinion is that she has every right to leave whatsoever. My analysis is that this woman was traumatized. And honestly, that's probably why she left after being there so long. It was just like I'm sure like as one of the other callers said, this woman probably slept with one eye up. You never know what was going to happen. It was just like, you know.

If you abuse an animal and then you just think that they're just going to come to you, they're going to walk to you with their tail between their legs. That's true. Or like a cat, you know, with their tail up. You know, like, it's just he's never going to have any peace. I'm sure she stayed that long because she probably genuinely loved this man. But as spoken before, you can forgive all you want, but you have to deny access. And you cannot forget. Deny access. Yeah.

That was good. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, Chantel, that was good. Yeah, I'm sure it was hard for her to leave, which it was. It took her all this time and this strength to probably to leave. You know what I mean? Like that syndrome of staying with your capture. You know what I mean? But she left. And honestly, God bless her.

actually coming up with the strength to be able to leave and God bless this woman. And you know, I wish her well, and I hope that she keeps up the strength to be able to stay out of that situation that she was put in for so long. Cause there's no telling what that man did to her besides beating on her, you know, cause a lot of times even a husband can rape his wife.

Yeah, it's true. You know, it's no telling what this woman endured in all these years. So God bless this woman. You know what I mean? And, you know, like I said, I'm glad she left and she had to muster up the strength. It's no telling what type of support she did or didn't have. Even the person that wrote you the letter and said, should she stay or shouldn't stay? Honestly, that sounds like a person that was not of a strong support system that she had. Good point. Good point, Chantel. Very good. I appreciate your call. I want to...

Talk a little bit about behind closed doors. Maybe I just watch too many movies. Maybe I've just been a psychotherapist for too long. But I'm imagining as he gets all this positive support from everybody in church, oh my gosh, poor thing, you changed your ways and she's not forgiving. That's not a religiously Christian thing for her to do. You should be rewarded for your change. Can you imagine him coming home and saying, everybody is supporting me.

Can you imagine what that feels like to her? It's not just 12 years of him not drinking. People who have been drunks for most of their adult lives don't change their personalities and characters that quickly, if at all, because there's so much maturing that never happened that has to happen now. So I'm just throwing that into the mix. You play with it as you will. Don, welcome to the program. And what is your assessment? And what's your opinion?

Well, it's just like you said, who cares what a third party saw or what they think? Because this woman's already been damaged. Her entire ideology of what a protective husband should be has ruined her. So that's fine that he got right with God. But if God's all merciful, I'm sure he could forgive her for not getting right with her husband. Interesting. That's a...

That's a good little twist there. I like that one, Dawn. Nice. All right. 1-800-375-2872. Barb, what is your analysis? What's your opinion? Hi. Well, I'll tell you, having lived this life and

in what I now call my previous life, there is no reason why she should have to stay with him. And a lot of that might be coming from her support system around her. I remember going to my parents when I was going through this many years ago. I'm now remarried for 38 years and happily with children and grandchildren. But at that point in my life,

I was told, you made your bed, you lie in it. Oh, my gosh. So that woman probably support system around her was not giving her the advice of how to live the next 12 years of her life with any kind of self-esteem. And I think, in my opinion, having gone through this, good for her. She finally got her voice.

Nice, Barb, and I'm glad you got yours. I appreciate that you called. Yeah. How many times have you folks listened to me take a call where a woman's... I said, did your mother not say this probably was not a good idea? No, she was very supportive of me staying with him. What? You've heard that. You made your bed. You slept in it. There's been no divorce in our family. Don't embarrass us. Ah, okay.

You know, don't want to hear the mess. Don't want you to take your kids and come here and bother our lives. So stay in your marriage. You'd be surprised how little support. And now everybody is swarming around him and just licking his toes. You're just found God and now you're wonderful. And meanwhile, she's totally traumatized.

My number 1-800-375-2872. Karen, welcome to the program. What is your opinion and what is your analysis?

Hi, Dr. Laura. What a treat to speak with you. Well, my opinion is that friend is wrong. Sandy made me laugh about what she said about the friend a few callers ago. And I agree with a lot of what Sandy said. She said a lot of what I was thinking, that this woman, the wife, probably waited until the kids were adults and up and out of the house.

And it took her a while to get her courage up to leave because she probably had a comfortable, she had grown comfortable with the life that she had with this man and the home that they had built if they had kids, especially. But she finally figured out between now and dead, how does she want to live? And it's,

Living with a man who beat her, whether he still beats her or not. But Karen, devil's advocate, but Karen, he's so upset. He wants to keep her. Don't we have any compassion for how upset he is? I'm not sure that I could have compassion for a man who...

beat his wife who got himself into that position, whether or not he is still mean or beating her now, there is still that that she that in her past

Yeah, got it. Okay, Karen, thank you so much. See, perfect example of how not all Karens are weird. I know it's become people who are annoying are all Karens. That was a perfectly good Karen. All right. Shannon, welcome to the program. And what's your opinion and your analysis of the situation?

Thank you, Dr. Laura. Not all Karens are like her. She's awesome. As a dad of a daughter, this has got to be a worst-case scenario. Also a man of God. But we've got to remember, this man who beat this woman for so many years, he found his pivot point was God. That's what turned his life around. Great. All for that. But we've got to remember that her pivot point was him.

And being beaten by him. And the choice she made because of that, kudos for her. If it was my daughter or my sister, he wouldn't have had that chance. He would have never had that choice. And I think we need to do better. Dads and brothers need to do better because she clearly wasn't supported correctly. But he was her pivot point.

So we as men need to not stand back and not let society dictate what's right and wrong. We need to protect our women, our daughters, and our children. Plain and simple. So good for her. Walk on. And that's why we need alpha men who live to provide and protect. Because without that, women get in trouble because men can dominate them physically. You are wonderful. I love you, Shannon. Great. Yes.

dads and brothers should be more invested in protecting the women folk, not stand back and go, it's not my problem. My God, I'm a woman. And if I had a daughter and this was happening to it, I'm not sure they'd find his molecules. Okay. Not sure they would. Christine, welcome to the program. And what's your analysis? What's your opinion?

Hi, Dr. Laura. So I am someone who grew up with a dad that was an alcoholic. My father was an alcoholic for 20 years. He is sober 35 years. I have a wonderful relationship with him. Unfortunately, I think that my mother should have left him. My mother is a miserable soul. She is someone...

who is a Christian and she has, I guess, I'm not sure what opinions she's gotten. I know from family members when I was young, it was, you know, the same. Well, you made your bed. You knew he was an alcoholic before and you married him.

But my mother, I guess, has chosen the route to torture him. So that's pretty much what she does. How does she torture him? And I've always told my mom. I'm laughing. How does she torture him? Yeah, she has...

She does, you know, she's very nasty. She's very angry. She he's not allowed to do this. He's not allowed to do that. She's got to follow him around. And my mother has said to me and speaking about this woman, she should leave. But as the kid, I always told my mother, you should leave him.

And she would say, but I'm staying for you. No, don't stay for me. You're miserable and unhappy. So you know what? You're both miserable and unhappy. I get along better with the alcoholic because you're unbearable to deal with. And I don't say that in a bad way. I'm just saying that I'm looking at it as the parents. If I was this woman, I would leave. Because.

Because I thank you, Christine, and you're funny. Let's keep this going. Your opinion, your advice to a woman who was beaten and mistreated emotionally, obviously, for half her marriage. He then finds the church, cleans up his act. At least that's what the friend sent me. That's her perspective that he's a good guy. And now the wife asked him to leave.

Should she forgive and stay? Should everything be hunky-dory? He's devastated. Give me your opinion. I'll be right back. Let's get back to Diane. What is your analysis and what's your opinion?

Hi, Dr. Laura. I have a couple of points. First one on the topic of you never know what goes on behind closed doors. I grew up across the street from a family and the dad was an alcoholic. And to the outside world, to the neighborhood, you would have thought he was the most kind, wonderful, friendly person.

person in the world. But then at night when he'd been drinking, you could hear him screaming and yelling and raising hell. So it's easy to put up a good front when you, when you want to. So that's number one. Number two to the alcoholic husband, kudos to him for getting sober and finding the church and finding God. But if I recall correctly,

Part of the 12 steps, if he's in a 12 step, hopefully, is doing a self inventory and looking deep into your soul and how you've hurt other people and what you've done to them and seeking forgiveness. But.

doesn't mean that everyone you seek forgiveness from is going to forgive you. And you have to learn to accept those consequences. I think it's part of the healing. So he's going to have to learn to deal with the fact that he may have lost her forever. Thank you, Diane. That was, no, that's don't, don't dismiss it with a, that's it. That was terrific. Thank you. She made a very good point. The last 12 years when he's in church,

with everybody slobbering over him, telling him how wonderful he is, that he's changed. She's watching that and feeling like, why were they not slobbering over me when he was beating me? And now everybody's slobbering over him. And really, we don't know if he's that much different at home. That behavior doesn't change overnight. Linda, what's your analysis? What's your opinion?

Hi, Dr. Laura. Thank you for taking my call. I just want to just mention that I grew up in church and I grew up being able to witness how amazing God's transformative power is. And I do believe that.

if he came to know the Lord in a genuine way, that God was able to transform him and is able to. And so I don't want to take away from that. But I would also like to mention, and one thing that I think is really important is that this lady lived with an abuser for 12 years. And we know that 24 women who are

24 years. I'm so sorry. Most women that have lived with an abuser for so long are so used to being abused. And majority of these women, we know at least 70% will go back to their abuser. And if she's now living with somebody who is no longer abusing her, and she was so used to for so long living in that, I feel that

There's obviously a lot of healing that needs to take place in her life as well. And I, I do feel that maybe perhaps that could be a contributing factor to her not wanting to be in that home anymore as well, because this is something completely different, a different behavior to her. And I'm, I'm,

of course, you know, everything that happened in her life is the reason why, but I feel like there would need to be a healing for her life, and I feel like a separation, you know, from him would be the best thing, and, you know, if you're someone who knows the scripture, and I'm referring to in general everybody, you know, we know that there are consequences to our sin, and

I believe that him losing her, you know, is a consequence to a decision that he made. And so I still believe in God's restoring power for that marriage. But I feel like her leaving would be the best decision because they both need to experience that healing or that transformation for real. That's very sweet, Linda. Rick, welcome to the program. What is your analysis? What's your opinion?

Listener since 1989. Thank you. My opinion is probably the lady was whatever, staying together for the kids, maybe staying together, you know, to improve herself. Maybe she went to school and was worried she couldn't go out and get a job or live her life and probably got stronger. Maybe she went to therapy or whatever.

He got stronger, and I'm kind of really upset at him that I know I got divorced because I'm not beating my wife, but cheating on her. And every time I look at her, and we see each other at family events, but, you know, I know she can't forget, and neither do I. And I think he should look at it like, hey, he remembers and should understand. Yes.

Oh, I can tell you're very moved by what you're saying. Thank you very much, Rick. Yeah, he sounded very moved. Claire, welcome to the program. What's your opinion?

Hi, Dr. Laura. Well, we don't know her situation. She could have been financially unstable before she met him. Of course, she could have had kids, so she had to stay for them. But that's also kind of a bad thing for the kids because now they can be traumatized later in life and kind of keep the cycle going of like, you know, domestic violence and alcoholism.

But like others have said, people don't change overnight. And just because he's not addicted to alcohol doesn't mean he can turn to something else and be addicted to something later.

There's lots of things that can happen. So and now she might be financially stable and she has a job now. And who's to say this, like the lady before said, it could have been just a facade like social media. Everything looks great and happy in the church and everything. But in real life, she is really still getting beaten down, just put down and everything. So. OK, Claire, thank you very much for your analysis. I do appreciate it.

This was great. Thank you very much for your input. From time to time, I will do this. I don't like planning in advance. I kind of like the spirit moving me and getting that email, which is like, oh, yes. Oh, yes. We have to have everybody's input. The other thing I want to say is I've got a real smarty pants audience. You guys gave great analyses and input. I'm very proud of my audience. Very, very proud.

So we're resorting back to our normal. So give me a call. Now go do the right thing. If you like this podcast, be sure to rate it on Apple Podcasts or your favorite place to listen to my podcast. Of course, I'd love if you gave me five stars. And be sure to share this podcast with a friend on Facebook or your preferred social media platform.