"How the sausage is made" is UGLY for Bengals negotiations playing out publicly
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The Cincinnati Bengals offseason has played out with public negotiations everywhere. We're seeing how the sausage is made, and it is not pretty. Let's break it down. You are locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day.

What up, Bengals fans, and welcome to another episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast, part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. I'm Jake Bliscoe. He's James Rapine. We've been covering the Cincinnati Bengals here on Lockdown Bengals since 2016. And you can also find James writing over at BengalsTalk.com.

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We're going to issue a little programming note here today before we dive into several topics that involve more or less public negotiations, whether it's Marseille or Trey Hendrickson, the pay course stadium lease, the various pay cuts the Bengals have given out while those didn't play out publicly. They obviously have a public aftermath. A lot of things happening in the public eye this year, which makes them, I think, a little bit more uncomfortable than normal. But

Before we dive into the conversation, we're hitting that part of the year where, yes, the Bengals have their mandatory minicamp coming up.

Pretty soon, but we're cutting back until around training camp. You'll see Lockdown Bengals going down to three days a week for five or six weeks here until mid-July, until about a week before training camp starts. So you should look for Lockdown Bengals episodes on Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday afternoon to evening on your favorite podcast platform or on YouTube. And of course, if anything breaking happens, we will have that covered as quickly as possible. But for routine episodes for this episode,

quiet part of the NFL calendar starting next week in the offseason three days a week Sunday Tuesday Thursday and for our everydayers this is very normal every year we do it and uh doesn't mean that you're not going to get us it's just kind of a more normal podcast schedule I would say for a lot of people three three episodes a week versus the five uh no we're not holding out or holding in and we we will be back to five days a week like you said Jake right before

probably like a week before mock turtle soup. So I'd say probably 10 days before camp ish, like that July 14th ish range, something like that. We'll keep you posted, but not going anywhere. But Jake, let's go. And myself, we're going to catch up on a little beauty sleep, hopefully. Yeah, hopefully. I mean, there are always obstacles besides just podcasting to get in the way of sleep. Yeah, no doubt. Like contracts.

Contracts keeping me up at night, keeping players up at night, keeping Bengals fans up at night. Maybe not. I hope not. I hope a lot of people aren't affected by this stuff and aren't worried about this stuff because ultimately the Shemar Stewart thing will be resolved. But we're talking about it again today because Shemar Stewart's dad was on a podcast, what, Wednesday, Tuesday, this week? I don't know what day he was actually on it. This week, yeah.

and disclosed what we thought the issue was. And in the cold open to the show, I mentioned how the sausage is made and James is going to keep count of how many times I say that. We might get to a big number pretty quickly on that one. But when I say that, it's obviously talking about an aphorism that's saying when we see behind the scenes of something, it can be ugly. These kinds of negotiations, this is a Mar Stewart negotiation where

According to Shamar Stewart's dad and Andrew Brandt, I think talked about this as well. The Bengals are just trying to change their standard contract language, supposedly, around the default of guarantees. And Shamar Stewart's dad doesn't like that Amarius Mims did not have to give up

any ground in terms of the defaults or voiding of future guarantees because the precedent is set in the NFL. First round pick contracts fully guaranteed. Shemar Stewart's contract will be fully guaranteed, but teams do put in language to protect them if the players do things that

could be detrimental. Like you get a 16 games, 18 games, 17 games suspension. Trying to remember how many games are in a year. How many? 17 games suspension. Three times a week, five times a week. What do we do? Teams will put in language and contracts and say these guarantees are void because you've done something heinous and suspendable or whatever it is. You know, the various situations that have happened in NFL history.

And the Bengals are trying to change that language. Shamar Stewart's dad does not think Shamar Stewart should be the guy for whom that language should change. And because Shamar's not participating in practice and has communicated through pro football talk and other platforms, what his grievance is, we're seeing very publicly this play out, but it,

it would not be surprising in the least if this same negotiation had happened with miles Murphy or with the Marius men's. And because those guys practice, because those guys didn't go public with the negotiation issues, we just didn't hear about it. This can be very standard practice. There are a bunch of first round picks around the NFL, not signed the entire second round outside of two players is still unsigned for a more interesting reason than what's going on with Jamar Stewart that maybe we can talk about. But again,

The reason that this is so uncomfortable this year is because all of this and Trey and the pay core lease negotiations and the stuff with Jamar and T earlier in the off season, so much of that played out publicly. And so when you see how it happens, it's a lot uglier than you might imagine. Well, sure. It's also because he's not on the field. It's a non-story. We stopped discussing it the moment he starts practicing. Right. And the weird thing is about it

And I don't know about the injury protection part of it and what he was offered versus Demetrius Knight. You're right. We can get into Demetrius Knight, why he's unsigned and why he may be the last pick of the Bengals picks to sign. If you did that, if you did the Fandle odds, Shamar Stewart versus Demetrius Knight, I think Demetrius Knight would get plus odds. And I'd probably go that route given the situation of what the second round is looking like and the Bengals and all of those things, because that might be a while.

And we definitely have to dive into it now because I just teased the heck out of it. But with Shamar, I don't care. I don't care. Like, just get on the field. And so is he getting weird advice from his agent? And is that part of it there? Or is it the Bengals aren't willing and are really trying to force this precedent? Because that's the other thing. Maybe that's it. Maybe they really are like, all right, we need to set this now.

So in future years, we can use it and that's it. We've thought about it and we've tinkered with it and we've toyed with the idea in the past and we've always gone one way. No, this is it. We're going to do it. And so maybe that's the route that they're trying to go. And so I think that they would offer him injury protection regardless. And that injury waiver, maybe Shamar's not dealing with that because he knows what the Bengals want him to do contract wise. I don't know.

But really want him on the field. That's what it comes down to, to me. I don't blame Shamar for not blinking. And I get why the Bengals are trying to do this because it protects them more. But if I was the 17th pick and the 18th pick last year didn't have to do it, I would be very direct and say, I don't have to do it either. And man, if this goes into training camp like Andrew Brandt suggested, Jake, I

Like now, now we're getting into the Achilles Smith boombox day showing up for camp. And, you know, are we really going to leave the practice field and a ball cap the same way Shamar Stewart is in a ball cap and shorts? Like, I hope that is not the case. But if the Bengals are dug in and he's pretty dug in, it would not shock me at all if it is.

It wouldn't shock me at all if they just get the deal done sometime in July and Shamar Stewart's on the field for training camp. And I might be a little surprised at this point if they get him on the field for mandatory mini camp in a couple of weeks. And what would he even do after having missed all of the ramp up stuff and rookies miss a part of the, the ramp up phases of the off season program anyway, but yeah,

I wonder how limited his on-field work would even be at this point from a conditioning perspective. I'm sure he's in shape, but they like to go a certain way with on-field work and easing into that on-field work, especially in the off-season program. Because of the preponderance of evidence that the NFL now has, it says that that ramp-up period can help to really reduce soft tissue injuries at this time of year. That's the last thing you want to risk, obviously, but...

The only question I have about this at this point is that the complaints from Shamar Stewart's camp have changed. It started with injury waiver issues. That was the first thing that we heard. And then it became the timing of roster bonus versus salary money in future years, probably in year four of that contract predominantly. And then it became this language around avoiding a future guarantees. So,

If the Bengals have resolved issue one and issue two, I feel like Shamar Stewart should be on the field, to be honest, my opinion. Like if they've got the injury protection thing sorted, they've got the timing of money sorted, and now there's just this voiding of guarantees question left, he's the only first round pick that's out on the field. We have no idea. That's true. We don't. We have no idea. Yeah. So like that's what's so tough about it is because we're commenting. It might have been this the whole time.

And maybe they don't want to offer the injury protection here or vice versa. He's that pissed off about this, this back and forth. Or he's like, I'm not signing it, which you hinted at early. And we don't know, but the injury waiver, the injury waiver should get it done. It should cover it. And he should be on the field. And if that's an issue, that's ridiculous. Like for sure. Like if that's an issue for his camp, that's on his camp.

And the same thing goes for the Bengals, if that's an issue for the Bengals. It needs to be cut and dry when it comes to the injury waiver. Speaking of, Demetrius Knight, he signed an injury waiver because he's still unsigned, yet he's on the practice field. And yet, he may sign after Shamar Stewart. We'll discuss why, plus Cordell Volson and more coming up next. Today's show is brought to you by FanDuel, the Oklahoma City Thunder. Well, they're in the NBA Finals and...

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Whatever it is, it's keeping him off the field. Even if he's not signing that deal, we wouldn't be talking about it if he was on the field. Case in point, Demetrius Knight is on the field. Demetrius Knight is unsigned, like the rest of the second round. The rest of the Bengals' picks are signed. But we're not talking about Demetrius Knight not having signed his deal, even though from an academic perspective, from a contract precedent perspective,

This may be more interesting. And Andrew Brandt talked about this and a number of people, I think, have talked about this. But continuing to reference this Andrew Brandt podcast, the Business of Sports podcast, which is really interesting. And I found that episode great because he's talking about the NFL potentially cracking down on void years and trying to make the cap a little bit less fake. That part was interesting, but also interesting is this. That would help the Bengals. Yeah.

It would help the Bengals. It would help the Bengals a lot. When I heard that part, I was like, oh, the Bengals are like fingers, toes crossed that this happens. And potentially behind part of the push, looking at teams like the Eagles, looking at teams like the Browns, and there's probably some other teams, the Pittsburgh Steelers, some other teams in those divisions.

the Steelers being one of the teams that could be arguing in favor of firming up that cap because right now the cap is very soft in the NFL. And that's why so often we hear people say the cap is fake. But anyway, what's so interesting about Demetrius Knight is that two picks in the second round have signed. The first two picks. Oh, no, is it only the second pick of the second round? Has Wessinger actually signed his deal? He did. Regardless, he did. Okay, so those guys got fully guaranteed contracts.

yep and the reason that first round picks get fully guaranteed contracts at this point is because i think for like five years or so maybe a little bit longer all first round picks have had their contracts guaranteed and this was something that from 2011 to 2016 kind of was creeping up in that direction of more and more first round picks for getting fully guaranteed deals until the entire first round became fully guaranteed and now that's just

The precedent. That's why we say first round picks get fully guaranteed contracts, because until that precedent is broken and suddenly there's a first round pick that doesn't get a fully guaranteed contract, that's what first round picks get in the NFL.

And now there's this push to guarantee more money and in some cases, full guarantees for second round picks. And so the second round is waiting to see, okay, what's going to happen with that third pick in the second round? Is that fully guaranteed? Okay, what's going to happen with that fourth pick in the second round? Oh, that's only 95% guaranteed. And then you might see a graduating scale down through the second round as teams are waiting to see what happens. I think

primarily with the third pick, fourth pick, fifth pick, et cetera, until maybe a team's like, you know what, screw it, 20th pick in the second round, you're getting fully guaranteed money. Then the rest of the NFL is really mad at that team because every pick before that guy is probably now very justified in saying, I should get a fully guaranteed contract too. So that's what's happening with Demetrius Knight, but we're not hearing about it because one, this is all second round picks, and two, he's on the field.

And that's the difference here and why we haven't talked about it. But I do think it's really interesting, maybe only to me, but I find it fascinating. No, it's really interesting because will a second rounder break it, break the precedent that they have a chance to set and blink and go to the other side and not agree to a fully guaranteed deal? Maybe it's the first three years are guaranteed, fourth isn't. And they're like, yeah, that's fine.

Or will it go the other way? And if it goes the other way, how do the Bengals react? Like, that's what I think is interesting. Like, if the precedent is set, if picks 33 already has and 34, but then picks 35 through 42 all sign their deals fully guaranteed, are the Bengals blinking then? Or are they going to wait until every pick until Demetrius Knight and then a few picks after Demetrius Knight? Like, that...

I'm curious because I don't think they're going to be in any rush to guarantee that full deal at all. And maybe to your point, you've said this this week. Maybe that's why Jermaine's on the roster. That's the only thing that I can come up with. Otherwise, it doesn't really make sense. And it's still dumb because they're going to get a deal done with Demetrius Knight. Yeah. First round money to second round money is...

apples to palm trees like it's much much different and so how the sausage is made right there we go there's three um but yeah i i think that element of all right will they do the guarantees even if everybody else in the second round does them that's gonna linger a bit and that's why i would guess if i had to which is it's crazy to say this because we've talked so much about shamar

But I think the Bengals probably signed Shamar Stewart before Demetrius Knight. If the rest of the league sets that precedent, if it stops with two guys, well then, yeah, they'll sign Demetrius Knight probably in the next week. Like it could happen very quickly the other way too. But if, if they get those guaranteed deals and that starts to snowball, it's,

will be really, really interesting to see how the Bengals react. The second round could just drag out because it might just go pick by pick. It might be third, fourth, fifth, maybe seventh, then sixth. Unless there's a big jump where suddenly the 10th player selected in the second round gets a fully guaranteed deal and then all the teams before that are like, well, our hands are tied now. I guess we got to do it. Then that could speed it up. But that's what could be so slow about it is it might go pick by pick, which...

uh you know not something that's going to be dramatic because there's no sign that demetrius knight isn't going to practice at any point looks like he's going to be on the field that's what he has indicated so far by participating in otas so not as dramatic there but the the drama has really played out this year i think compared to previous years because it's been so public and last year that was from our chase in training camp but joe burrows deal went down to the deadline

And while that did go down to the regular season and the week one of that season when Joe Burrow signed his extension,

the Bengals and the player side both agreed, and Mike Brown made a point of telling everyone this at Mock Turtle Soup Day speaking of, that they weren't going to talk about the status of negotiations, and they didn't. And so, the difference now is that we're hearing about all this stuff, and because we're hearing about it, it's getting talked about much more, it's being written about by Pro Football Talk and by ESPN and, you know, all these major platforms, you know, Pat McAfee talking about Trey Hendrickson, any chance he can.

And so because these guys are going public with it, it's so much uglier than it would otherwise have to be. And I think that's the point that maybe we haven't made enough is that a lot of what's happening isn't that unusual. It's just that we're hearing more about it and we're seeing more of the details. And that's what's so ugly about it is that we're so aware of how slow and how painful some of this stuff can be. And by the way, if this was the Bengals plan, then they should have said no to the, uh,

the trade permission nonsense request because it was just nonsense. It was never happening, never felt close, never felt like a trade was imminent, never felt like they were really considering it. Like, well, then just don't do it because it puts Trey out there. Then it gets insiders talking and then people are talking and then the whole league is talking and then it creates that. It creates that buzz. Well, maybe this is why they don't do it typically. And they're like, we're going to go back to declining all these requests again.

I mean, I would. I remember the show we did after that. We couldn't believe they agreed to do that. It was stupid. And well, maybe what gets done first, the pay core stadium lease or Trey Hendrickson's deal. We'll talk about the former coming up next. Before we get to the pay core lease news of the week, because there was news this week.

Quickly want to hit on Cordell Volson being the third Cincinnati Bengal to take a pay cut this year in exchange for some poultry guarantees. He gets $500,000 guaranteed for 2025 and in exchange gives up about $500,000 off the top of the deal.

There are incentives in the deal. The base salary is $1.5 million, but it's up to $600,000 in per-game roster bonuses. Those are all likely to be earned, which means they all count against the salary cap. There's a previous signing bonus that is prorated into this year that counts against the salary cap as well. So they save a little bit of cap space. But, James, I am...

a little bit surprised by the nature of this cut like they give him 500 000 guaranteed which makes it fairly likely that he makes a team but they also left him in a spot where this is a more cuttable contract than it otherwise could have been because they only took 500 000 or so off the top and and so i thought it would be a bigger cut and that with that guarantee in exchange for the bigger cut it would be

exceedingly likely that Cordell Wilson makes the team. And I think that's still the favorite, but the way this contract ends up, if that competition really gets away from him and I don't really think it will, but if that competition really gets away from him, they could still move on from Cordell Wilson at this number. Yeah. You lose 500 grand. And so that's, it's interesting because I don't, the Bengals aren't usually in the market. And we've said this to spend three plus million on a backup.

And so are you doing that for Cordell Wilson if he loses the job? On the other end, when you look at the roster bonuses or per game bonuses and all of those things, it's like, well, he's probably getting those. And so does he win? Do they think he can win the starting job? And behind closed doors, they're like, yeah, he's got to. It's just interesting. I agree with you. I would have like if you're doing this.

Of course, you can say take that contract and put it elsewhere and go get Will Hernandez or go get Brennan Sheriff if he's available and wants to play or whoever. But if you're asking Cordell to take a pay cut, shouldn't it be like a real pay cut? He's still making way more than he was projected as a fourth-round rookie. A lot of those performance...

base bonus which is based on playing time a lot of that is is his contract now anyway still like it's not like you made him eat two million of it and and go the other route and 500 i just i wonder i wonder what the the logic was there and maybe this is just a win for cordell's agent but we didn't hear it we didn't hear it reported that way of course because you don't

anyone knowing your client took a pay cut, but it's really not that big of a pay cut. In reality, it's way more than he was planning on getting until he gets the performance base until all that stuff came out. So it's just interesting. Interesting, interesting. I do agree with you though. If it does get away from him, I'm not sure you would hesitate on a $500,000 cap hit to move on, or maybe it's tradable and maybe that's the other part of it. But

I think Cordell is like a really well-liked dude in the locker room. He's going to work really, really hard. Maybe he takes a half step with Scott Peters, and I think he's going to be on the team. Yeah, I think that that is likely the outcome. I wonder if when they put this deal together, they're not sure if he will be one of the game day actives. Maybe they see him as the extra guy who's going to be inactive on the offensive line, and they think that

If he's active, great. Then he can earn that $600,000 in per game active bonuses. But I agree. I thought it would be a bigger cut for Cordell that would essentially guarantee his spot on the roster because it wouldn't cost him very much.

but would give him some guarantee back in return. But, but yeah, I would say this looks like a win for Cordell Wilson and perhaps a sign that the team still, and again, and, and this shouldn't be a surprise, I guess holds Cordell Wilson in high esteem and, and really likes his makeup and they always have, they've always liked his approach to the game. And so perhaps that is not a surprise. Uh, guess what? AFC North team just signed their first round pick.

I don't know who hasn't, so I have no idea. Baltimore Ravens. Malachi Starks. I think all three AFC North teams have signed their first round pick. I'm not sure about Derek Harmon. That's the only one I got to check. Did Cleveland have a first round? Oh, yeah, they did. It was not Travis Hunter. Mason Graham. They signed him. The Cincinnati Bengals...

are apparently looking to get a lease agreement done without state funds. That is the latest news from Local 12, James Pilcher, WKRC, with the original article that... All three first-rounders have signed, just so you know. So Shamar, the only AFC North first-rounder unsigned. I was mid-sentence, but that's okay. I just had an update, everybody. Go ahead. I don't think anyone cares, James. The...

Frankly, the report had some hopefulness to it, James. The...

sentence included here that was hopeful is the team in the county reportedly close to agreeing on a 10-year lease with potential extensions for another 10 years. What were your takeaways when you absorbed the report with, again, continued drama here with the county and the team going back and forth and the county asking for the team to cover more money and all of these things? What were your takeaways here? Get it done. Like, all right, so now you have an option that

could potentially work without the state. Let's see if it actually gets done. You know, I mean, they signed a memorandum of understanding weeks and weeks ago. And then what happened? The county makes moves and all of these things. The Bengals are leery about the negotiator and there's all these things back and forth. And so it's like, all right, we're talking about a month now. Like if you're listening on Friday, it's a month past that, then less than a month from the deadline where the Bengals are going to

Make a decision. Hey, are we going to exercise a two-year option? Are we going to be able to get a long-term lease agreement in place or play it out and find a new place to play after the 2025 season? I mean, that's the other option for them. So can you just get it done? And that's kind of where I'm at on both sides. And we'll see if they do. I still think it happens. I'd be surprised if it didn't. Surprised? I would not be surprised. You wouldn't be surprised if they don't get a deal done?

Before June 30th? No, I would not be surprised. You wouldn't be surprised that the Bengals are courting Northern Kentucky and Ohio suburbs for a stadium in a month? No. They've already done that.

I mean, but they've already had discussions about that. They have to. That would mean you're taking the short-term extensions and now you're out of there. You're done. They could take eight of them though. That's the other thing is they could take three in a row. I just, they don't want to do that. They want to know that that's their home. And so do I think something gets done? I do, but it's not going to surprise me if in the political world where

I won. We just spent a whole show talking about how tough the Bengals are negotiating wise and how they are negotiations. But let's tie it back to the AFC North teams getting their first round pick side. They didn't have any drama. There's no drama with those guys. Right. And signing their first rounder. And so, yeah.

It's always harder with the Bengals. Plus, the county has been, I would say, pretty difficult during this process. Over the past few weeks, I think it's pretty clear they've been difficult. And certain people in the county, representing the county, have agendas. And so can you get past that to an agreement? Probably. But it's not going to surprise me if one of those people with an agenda or the Bengals or both get a little stubborn when it's crunch time. It would not shock me, no.

I think what stood out to me the most here is that it's only a 10-year lease. That feels like a relatively short time for this scale of lease agreement, right? Really, what it would mean is in five years, we're talking about a new stadium. I don't want to talk about this again in five years. I don't either. Let's get a 20-year lease, guys. You didn't want to talk about it now, which is why you got mad about the AFC North people. I agree with you. But it's...

it sucks because it's politics and this isn't locked on bengals politics it's left on bengals and so hopefully they can figure it out it just until it's done i'm like all right well we'll see and i think a lot of other people are that way and what's what's interesting is i think there are a lot of citizens that are like like hamilton county residents that are like better win this deal and then on the other side the bengals are like well

We don't want an awful deal on our side. Shocker. The Bengals don't want to lose the deal. And I don't think they will. And so I think hopefully it comes together. I'm waiting for that one where it's done. Get it done. You're right. 10 years is short. I didn't think about that until just now. 10 years is really short. I'll be interested to see what the final numbers look like if and when the deal does happen. I guess if because I shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't get done, according to my esteemed co-host, James Rapine. And you're probably right.

Maybe my feel for this is wrong. Who knows what happens with local politics? That is the biggest underlying point, especially with the state not making money available for the Bengals and all these things, talking about increasing gambling taxes. That is far outside of the scope of this podcast. When we talk about how the sausage is made, it stops once you get outside of Cincinnati Bengals' contracts.

We don't know the details really as well for the politics stuff. So that's going to do it for this episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. We've got a couple more weeks of the Bengals doing some football activities and we'll continue to cover here through mandatory mini camp. Until next time, thanks for listening to this episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Hootay. Have a good one.

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