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I'm Sally Jenkins, and welcome to a special edition of Washington Post Live. Launching The Ship. It's our new leadership series exploring themes like stewardship, sportsmanship, mentorship. You
You can see where we're going. The series fits right into the Post Corps mission to study leadership in all its forms across all of our reporting. We probe how leaders govern, how they inspire and deliver or not. At the inaugural event for the ship this week, we explored what makes great leaders by talking to a few. My colleague, David Ignatius, spoke with Christine Lagarde on her stewardship of leadership.
of the European Central Bank and the lessons she learned about leadership, including a pretty fascinating discussion of an experience you probably didn't know she had as an Olympic-caliber synchronized swimmer. I had the privilege of sitting down with one of the most successful coaches in college sports history, Tara Vanderveer.
She led the Stanford women's basketball team for 38 seasons, winning three championships, and setting the all-time record for victories, male or female. We spoke about sportsmanship, the ship, Tara Vanderveer, Christine Lagarde. They're all coming up next.
So let me begin by asking about something you said in that video, which seemed very apposite. You said predictability is in very short supply these days. I think we'd all agree on that. And I want to ask about how you as ECB president
Try to provide predictability for your colleagues, for financial markets in a way that's stabilizing and not destabilizing. Thank you very much, David. And thank you to the Washington Post for having me on this The Ship series. It's a great honor and a privilege to be with you and with all those in the audience today and your readership as well.
What we have to do as central bankers is to focus on our mission and make sure that we harness as much actual, real, verifiable data as possible to analyse them and to project and forecast what will be the economic activity, what are likely to be prices, and deduct from that the best monetary policy stance we can.
define and apply to reach our target, which is the mission. And the mission for us is a little more simple in Europe than it is in the United States because it's a single objective, primary objective we call it, and it's price stability. We have to keep price stable. We have defined that historically for many, many years and across the world pretty much as 2%.
The second aspect of that predictability in this world, which is very uncertain and which has a lot of unpredictability about it, is to be as transparent and as clear as possible about what we do, what facts we look at, what models we operate, what analysis we conduct.
And we've been very explicit and more explicit than my predecessors have been because we had to in the present circumstances.
So one aspect of unpredictability in the United States, especially in the last several weeks, has been a concern that President Trump might interfere with the political independence of the Federal Reserve, specifically by firing Fed Chairman Jay Powell.
President Trump said last night, as you know, as the markets obviously know, that he has, quote, no intention of firing Jay Powell as Fed chair. So I want to ask, are you reassured by that statement? I'm reassured by the talent and the competence of the chair of the Fed. And I know for a fact that he's putting all his efforts and all his efforts
disciplined into delivering on his mission. I sound like a parrot repeating the same thing, but what is actually very helpful for us central bankers in a world where political interference, massive development, changes of circumstances can be unsettling for us, to have the mission as a compass and to stick to this
And to be as candid as we can be about how we go about the job we have to go about is giving us...
giving those who watch us predictability, and I think reinforces our credibility. Those are key components in the financial markets. And I have, as I said previously, enormous respect for Chair Powell, and I know that he's doing exactly what is expected of him to serve the American people, and financial stability, which goes together with price stability.
And to speak about this question, regardless of who's currently president or who's currently Fed chair, what is the danger, the damage to financial markets and stability when there's a perception that there is political interference? Why is this something we should worry about?
If you look at academic literature on the topic, and there is plenty of it across the world, whenever there has been political interference and whenever central bank chair or presidents have lost their independence as a result, it has been followed by declining growth, increased inflation, and this is not something that anybody wants and certainly not something that serves a mission.
So one more broad question about leadership. By the way, I should add something, David. It's not independence in a vacuum. In other words, we cannot do whatever we please.
We have to be riveted to the mission and we have to be accountable. And if I look at my situation, every quarter I have to go before the European Parliament, explain what we are doing, what we are seeing, what we are planning on doing, and that's the accountability that is necessary and that is the counterpart of the independence. - So as I say, one more broad question about leadership.
You and I had a chance to talk briefly at Davos in January, and we talked just a little bit about the broad theme of the benefits of disruption. This is a world where sometimes it's good to be disruptive, to shake things up. We talked about that in the context of Europe and the European economies.
Talk a little bit about the balance in economic management between disruption and then this insistence on underlying stability. I'm glad you're taking me back to January. That sounds like a long time ago. No, no, no. I'll tell you why. Because I think that there has been a momentum. I look back in, I think it was in July of 24, and it was picked up massively in September.
two key reports were issued in Europe. The Letta report, the Draghi report. Two former prime ministers of Italy. And both of them were groundbreaking in their recommendations. The first one, Letta,
looked at the internal market, which is supposed to be a common market of Europe, and he identified all the obstacles, all the ordeals, all the constraints, all the unnecessary bureaucracy that actually cripples the energy and the
the chemistry that creates value in Europe. The second one identified what should be reformed, improved, changed and simplified in order to let out the productivity that we are so behind on relative to the US. So two key reports, the fall of 2024. January, the elections and a number of statements and a number of pre-positioning or policy announcements.
that came as, you know, apologies for the language, but a kick in the butt for the Europeans. And suddenly it was a question of, oh, we cannot stand still and just do business as usual. There's a lot more than we have to do. And we had the benefit of those two reports. And I think that those two combined create now what I call a moment for Europe. So that momentum is now sort of
like a catalyst of a European moment. And when I look back at the many crises that I've gone through, I wouldn't go back to the Treaty of Rome. I was a bit too young for that. But any time we had a significant crisis, close to being existential, as I said to another very good newspaper in Davos, whenever that happened, we pulled our socks, got on with it, and came up with innovative solutions
Real breakthrough relative to the conventional way of conducting the European business. Let me give you the example of COVID. COVID suddenly leads the European members, 27 countries, to jointly, together, go to the market and borrow 1 trillion euros.
to respond to the crisis, to be jointly and severally liable for the reimbursement of that debt, and to allocate the proceeds to the most affected countries. So not in any kind of equal way based on a per capita key or any kind of particular device. And that in the form of loans and grants.
If I had been told six months before that that Europe would come up with something like that, I would have said, no way, no way. And yet it happened. So this is a bit of the miracle of Europe. You despair of it. You find it a series of boring democracies to borrow from Valdis Dombrovski, who used that comment precisely this morning. And then suddenly, the energy, the determination, the resilience...
come together and deliver something new. I think we are in another one of those moments. - So, not to be irreverent or provocative. - No, please be. - Okay. - Okay. - I remember saying to you as we were standing on the street waiting to get into the conference hall that I kept hearing from European business leaders the phrase "miga."
meaning make Europe great again. And people said we're overtaxed, we're overregulated. You know, there's something in this idea that we need a shake-up. And if I hear you right, putting the mega, mega business aside, you don't disagree with that. I don't disagree with that because I'm seeing the premises of this thing actually happening. If I look at... But happening in an orderly fashion...
making sure that we keep the legacy of what is going to be helpful for Europe, what will secure the confidence in Europe, what will secure a framework within which people know that they can operate with as little uncertainty as possible. Let me give you a couple of examples. One is a campaign of simplifications.
This is called omnibus. It's not a very fancy and sexy word, but you will see, if you follow what happens in Europe, quite a few of these omnibus bills that will focus on what is necessary and what is nice to have and what is irrelevant. The irrelevant will go, the nice to have might be tampered or scaled down and applied to certain companies and not to smaller ones, and the necessary will stay. That's one example.
Second example, which is relevant for my purposes as a central banker, is the saving and investment union. And that is also now being rolled out. We have a timetable, we have an action plan, and the whole purpose of the exercise is to make sure that the significant savings that are characteristic of Europe, at least a good portion of it,
stays in Europe in order to finance digital transition, the climate transition, and very importantly, the security that requires defense investment. This is also a set of practical steps that will be taken. On the tax front, I don't know because I don't try to mingle too much with tax. So what? We'll talk about President Trump's favorite word, tariffs.
He says it's the most beautiful word in the language. I want to start with a specific question and then a couple of general ones. The specific, Jay Powell said last week in Chicago, in his speech to the Economic Club of Chicago, that, I'm quoting here, tariffs are likely to generate at least a temporary rise in inflation. And then he said inflationary effects could also be more persistent.
And then talking about growth, he said that he was already seeing evidence of growth slowing. And as you know, the IMF, which you formally led, just lowered its global growth forecast by one percentage point, substantial lowering. So I just want to ask, again, on the very specific level, in terms of the data that you see,
Are you beginning to see those two effects, inflationary pressure, would you expect, given this tariff regime, inflationary pressure and slowing growth? David, that's where we have to look at the territory where you stand and about which you speak, because the effects are different in the United States from where it is in Europe. If I concentrate on what's happening in Europe,
We are beginning to see some softening of growth numbers and I would not exclude that we also revisit our growth forecast when we do our next projection in June. Similar impacts will happen in the rest of the world most likely because it will have an across-the-board effect on GDP.
We're beginning to see that a little bit. Not so much in the export numbers because there's a build-up of inventory as we see it at the moment in anticipation of possible tariffs, but we're seeing that in PMI numbers, in intentions to purchase, intentions to hire. This is slowing down. On inflation, it's a different story.
And while our economists are seeing a potential rise of inflation in the United States as a result of the tariffs, if such tariffs are increased more than they are at the moment because prices
will increase for the importers and then the importers in the US will have to decide whether they reduce their margin or whether they transfer the price increase to the consumers. If the latter, then obviously it will be inflationary. On our side of the pond, in Europe, it's very unclear what the net impact will be. And in particular, if there is no countermeasures decided by Europe,
I think the net inflation outcome is uncertain at the moment, but it's probably going to be disinflationary more than inflationary. But the net impact is, number one, difficult to assess because we are in a world of hypotheticals. We are in this transition period where we don't know exactly what is going to come out of
of those discussions that are going on at the moment. And we also have to be careful about the timeframe within which we assess the situation. There's the short term and then there is something that happens in the longer term when you take into account potential rerouting of products
Assume for a second that the tariffs remain very high between the United States and China. China will have overcapacity, will want to reroute its exports somewhere,
possibly to Europe, that would have a dampening impact on prices. There will be some very strong fiscal measures taken by the Europeans. If you look at what Germany is going to do on the fiscal front by investing in this infrastructure long-term plan, as well as beefing up significantly the investment in defence, that will weigh on the other side of the balance and will have
a more inflationary impact. So it's a balancing act. It's one where you have to take a short and a longer term view and where the net impact is uncertain as far as Europe is concerned. Fascinating, at least because that is different from the United States, the disinflationary aspect of what you're facing. Which is why central bankers come to different conclusions.
So a general question based on what you see, what you hear, what we're all picking up. Do you think that this trade war is escalating or de-escalating? I think we are in a transition period. I'll give you a few numbers because I think it's helpful. If I look at Europe, we are currently at an average trade
tariff with the United States which is about 1.6% on goods, goods only. Currently with the 10% tariff which applies and with the 25% on cars and cars parts and the 20% on aluminium and steel we have an average tariff of 13.5%. So there is already an impact which is significantly higher than what we have had in the past.
Where that will go will depend, in my view, of a set of negotiations, the most important of which will probably be the negotiation between the United States and China. You look at the tariffs on China, 146%.
China's tariff on the United States, 125%. This is monumental. And as Secretary Besant said yesterday, it's not sustainable, which to me indicates that that will be the prime negotiation that will come about. And Secretary Besant is ultimately in charge of...
I hope leading those negotiations. And a central point that I take from what you just said is that a negotiation between the United States and China is ahead. We're not on an ever-ascending escalator that, based on what you see, we're heading toward a negotiation. Yes.
So I want to step back. I could ask you questions about the particulars of the global economy for much of the rest of the day, and I'd be happy, but I wouldn't do justice to the scope of our program. So I want to just ask you some broad questions about leadership. So one question that I love to ask people, if you were to write a letter
to your successor as ECB president and put it in his or her desk drawer. That's what presidents in this country do, right? That's what presidents do. And sometimes we find out what was in the letters and sometimes we don't. But what are some basics that would be in your letter about, not so much about the details of running the ECB, but about leadership?
Well, first of all, I don't think that I would have any lessons to give to my successor. Because if he has been selected, he's bound to have the leadership attributes to lead the institution, because it's a really important one. And the work would have been done. But I'll tell you what I learned from previous instances where I was thrown into a leadership position. One is, I stand by what I said, which is that when the situation is dear, and...
and everybody shies away from taking responsibilities, then that's when a woman rises. I have seen it all the time, all the time. And at that point, what we have to do, I mean, we as women, and that's how I felt, is at that time, just go for it, grab it, because it can't get worse. You can only improve it. But what I learned when, you know, coming in those situations, which has been most of my life,
is two key principles and then three attributes which I have found useful. Two key principles: first of all, have a deep look at finance, audit, and make sure you have a solid financial basis on which to lead. And if not, clean it up before you start doing anything. It's pretty basic, but we tend sometimes to forget it. And I'd say the second thing, again, apologies for the bad language,
make sure that you get the bastards out quickly. And sometimes there are not many. There's one couple of them, but do it right away because it establishes your leadership in the sense that if people talk behind the institution's back, if people abuse the system, if people are not correct and true to the principles of the institution, they should go. And the three principles
In my view, well, what has been helpful to me and what I think I have regarded highly in my leadership position is number one, you need a team. And truth be told, I see in this room some of my former team members, and I'm delighted to see them here. So a team. Number two, the energy. Number three, confidence. If you can cultivate these three ingredients,
Make sure that you have a team with you and that you encourage them, you push them forward. It's not about you, it's about the team. Number two, just cultivate the energy that is going to be needed in any leadership position, whether in sports or whether in business or whether in institutional capacity, and the confidence that you need to have in yourself and that, more importantly, you need to inspire in others who work with you. Bring these three together together
you can thrive and steer the ship. And steer the ship. I do want to come back to your comment and the comment that Trevor Noah made in the introductory video, calling the women. This is, when you look around the world, this is an era of great women leaders. It's just a fact. And yet. Well, there's an and yet. And yet.
I wasn't going to ask the and yet. I was going to ask the why. So what is it that these great women leaders understand that gives them a special advantage, especially in times of crisis? Explain that. I don't personally have the answer, but I know that there have been studies, and I've read those studies, that tend to show that in times of crisis, women have a capacity to...
inspire confidence, show empathy and be better leaders through the crisis than men were or could have been. COVID was a case of very deep studies of how women lead in those circumstances compared with how men lead. So, you know, I think there is
A little man sleeping in every woman and a little woman sleeping in every man. It's just a question of letting that come out. That's...
Well said. So one more question about Christine Lagarde and leadership. A little known Christine Lagarde fact is that you were a champion synchronized swimmer. And you were a member of the French national team.
We're going to have a great coach and a great sports writer in a few minutes talking about sports. But I want to ask you what that experience as a serious athlete in a particularly precise sport taught you about yourself, but also about yourself.
What you said earlier, working together as a team about the success that athletes achieve when they're doing their great work that you could carry into other aspects of life. I'm glad you associated that with work because it is very much about hard work. Synchronized swimming is a beautiful sport. I could talk for hours about it. But it's a sport that requires a lot of control, a lot of teamwork,
the ability to hold your breath and smile at the same time, to be underwater for a while and pop out in glory and still with a smile on your face.
But it's one where teamwork is indispensable. I mean, if you don't have your teammates to hold you, to help you, and to work with you, you just toast. You will not succeed. So teamwork is incredibly important. Hard work, as I said, and nothing gets done without this hard work and team spirit. It applies to sports. It applies to life in general.
So, ladies and gentlemen, Christine Lagarde, a great leader. Thank you all so much for joining us for this session and the ones to come. Hello. Thank you very much. I'm Susie Watford, and I'm Chief Strategy Officer here at The Washington Post. In today's rapidly changing world, business leaders face unprecedented challenges at every turn.
The Executive Leadership Council, or the ELC, is an independent non-profit founded in 1986 that opens channels of opportunity for the development of global executives to positively impact businesses and communities. And the ELC recently completed its second annual Voice of the Member Survey, gathering insights from over 200 C-suite executives and board members across Fortune 500 companies and non-profits.
and the survey explored strategic priorities, the most valuable skills and organisational readiness for the future. With us today to discuss these findings is Michael C. Heiter, President and CEO of the ELC. He's a long-term expert on leadership and business and Mike has held executive roles at Korn Ferry, Global Innovations and currently sits on the board of Dyn Brands Global Inc.
He's also authored several books, including The Power of Choice: Embracing Efficacy to Drive Your Career. Mike, welcome. Thank you very much. Thank you, Suzie. Thank you. Thank you. I was going to say my mother thanks you for that intro.
Well, look, I mean, we've heard a lot already this morning, but the ELC released its second annual Voice of the Member survey today. What did you choose or why did you choose to focus the survey on business priorities over the next two to three years? And kind of what from the findings stood out to you most? Well, we wanted to capture what today's needs were from a leadership perspective.
And we wanted to hear from the leaders themselves about what the priorities were considering the economy and all of the changes and things that are going on around us.
And we thought that information would also help us then highlight where there's areas of opportunities for leaders to be more competitive and more forward-thinking as a result of learning about what they collectively said. So that was the primary impetus behind it. And you've called this an era defined by disruption. I think we've heard some of that this morning. But what do you mean by that exactly? Well, disruption, which is the operative word, I think, for everything that we're dealing with right now, is...
It used to be an event, and it used to be something that happens on occasion, and then we adjust. It's then to normal, yeah. Now it's the environment. I mean, basically everything is disruptive. And managers and leaders in particular just need to sort of appreciate the fact that it is not a temporary phenomenon, but a permanent one. And so the backstory behind decisions ought to be influenced by the fact that disruption happens.
is going to happen as opposed to avoiding it. So disruption is the centerpiece of my judgment about what's different in the mindset of leaders, or at least what should be different in the mindset of leaders as we're entering the eras that we're in now business-wise.
But it's disruptive is disruption, but it's constant. And the data highlights really that there's a leadership pipeline gap where most executives actually say that that kind of senior sponsorship is the best way to develop leaders and future talent. But the research shows that fewer are actually doing it. Why is that gap so persistent? And what's at risk if we don't address it?
Well, I'm glad you asked that question. I mean, for the record, sponsorship is the most effective, impactful way of developing leadership talent.
But as you referenced in the question, it happens far less often than it should. I think partly it's time consuming and requires intentionality. And in high pressure environments, which a lot of business organizations are in right now, it becomes something temporary.
that you just don't spend a lot of time thinking about because of the time commitment that it typically takes. It doesn't take as much time as we tend to think. But it really, really is important. The positioning individuals in situations where their experiences reflect the pace and the complexity of what is required for leaders going forward and being in a position where you
can influence that person having an opportunity to do that is huge. What has happened in the past is in the absence of sponsorship, people tend to think, well, if she or he have this one job, they'll eventually get promoted to another one and it'll take care of itself.
But someone who isn't, who's maybe three or four levels away from that particular person, sees potential and has the influence to say, but a global assignment in this particular country will actually sweeten the opportunity for him or her to be able to do this next assignment and be in a position to help make that happen.
is a transformative experience in terms of development. You have to be way more intentional about it. And what's missed if you don't do it is to miss out on the opportunities for what I call future-proofing with people in advance of needing them.
That makes sense. And you've talked about that, actually, the need to future-proof leadership. What does that mean and how can organizations kind of start developing the kind of leaders that the moment and this disruption and the future actually demand? Future-proofing, I had to promise to make sure I could say that clearly right now. Future-proofing is basically developing talent to be able to anticipate and thrive in the
uncertainty. I mean that's what future-proofing is. And the muscle memory and the experience to be able to thrive in uncertainty is something that is developable. And the more people who have that or are the beneficiary of that, what I call future-proofing,
the more effective they'll be as leaders in the disruptive environment that I'm trying to describe earlier. So that's what future-proofing means. Yeah. And you've said that organizations that really rise to meet that moment will define that future. Right. How do you feel about the future generations of leadership and what gives you hope? What gives me hope? No, I'm just kidding. You know, actually, the next gen's mindset
They're bold, curious, motivated to lead differently. I mean, they're just wired to lead differently. It's just something about the curiosity. And I find next-gen talent tends to appreciate that leadership does mean authority, but adaptability is actually more important than authority.
And given the disruptive nature and the certainty of what I call permanent motion of craziness that, you know, with market changing and policy changes and consumer expectations shifting, having people with that orientation leading through that disruption increases the likelihood of future-proofing at a real high level.
Investing in people with that type of capability is one of the best investments any organization can make in terms of protecting its future. It's interesting because organizations are managing aren't they like five different generations sometimes? Yes, and for the first time in our history all five generations and if anyone in the room has experience with adult children that range in those ages they all think differently. The values
Things that are motivating are different, but they're all motivated by different things. And now we as leaders have to navigate through that process.
maze of differences in ways I don't think leaders typically thought about in the past, but it's a very, very important piece of being successful and disruptive now. I was going to say, and is that one of the, when you think about the challenges that leaders face now compared to even just a few years ago, that kind of intergenerational workforce is one area. What other challenges do you see that people are dealing with now in leadership that are perhaps different? I think what's different now is
Leadership is more than just setting a course. You know, it was set a course and everybody follow me. Leadership is a lot more related to
We're going to have to deal with anything we don't see coming, guys and ladies. We're going to make left turns without plans. We're going to have to make decisions with less certainty of outcomes. That's fundamentally different in terms of how leadership is sort of wired. We need that training that Sally was talking about earlier. That's why it was amazing what she was saying. So that's fundamentally different today. But it matches the moment where organizations are existing. Yeah.
And you touched on this a bit when we talked about how do you manage the urgent and the important, so whether that's kind of looking after future talent, but that balance of short-term performance and those demands with the long-term goals that reflect organizational values and stakeholder expectations, how should people think about balancing those?
Carefully. I mean, that's a reality. I mean, it's like parallel tracking is, again, the new norm. And you have to be intentional about it. I mean, synthesizing data, check. That's a very important element of successfully leading something. Being able to lead through challenges successfully.
But at the same time, meet the needs of your team members. Meet the needs of those that you're dependent on to get the work done. You have to do all of it at the same time, as opposed to in steps. And so it requires, I guess, what do you call it? Walking and chewing gum at the same time, kind of dexterity. But that's the new sort of dynamic now that everybody's in. You can't leave...
Although it's interesting, the data would suggest like AI, strategic agility, technical agility is more prominent and ability to work through disruption is more prominent than people management is presumed to be. But the development of team members while doing those things, to prepare them to be eligible to take the organization to the next level.
is critical when you have to do it in real time. You can't send someone to a class and expect that to work the same way it used to. I thought we were going to get through a whole session without talking about AI, but you said it, so let's talk about it. Did that come up in the survey? It did. It did. I guess I shouldn't say surprised, but it was defined as a much more prominent priority in the mindsets of executives, even more so than market executives.
regulatory and supply chain risk as a thing that requires a lot more time and attention going forward. I think part of it is just the fact that things are happening so quickly and AI is a significant sort of arbiter between making access to information faster in a way where you have to react to it faster.
People see that that's a significant piece of what success is going to look like as a leader. I'm going to ask you one final question. The survey really does reveal that kind of clear shift.
that leaders need tech fluency, as we've talked about with AI, strategic ability, and adaptive thinking all kind of now outrank those traditional strengths like people management, or do they? But what does it tell us about how leadership is evolving and what's going to matter for the future? Well, what's going to matter for the future is that leadership still matters. You know, it's not machines or strategies or flow charts that are going to actually make a difference.
leading and developing people in the face of all of what's going on around us is the only way that this is really gonna be something that you can thrive in as an organization. - That feels like an appropriate place to end given the subject and why we're all here today. So thank you so much. Thank you for that perspective. Stay right there everybody because I'm gonna hand back to my colleagues in the newsroom. - This is a real privilege for me. I'm a Stanford girl, Stanford alum.
Tara, we have to talk about the jacket. I had to wear it. Yeah. So please tell everybody about the jacket, what's on there, what it represents to you. Well, Nike surprised me with this jacket when our team won a game last year, and it set the record for the most wins. And so it's a tally jacket, so each mark is a tally of a victory, which was 1,203 at the time.
So every single mark there represents a win. Right. And there's on the back and the front. I've been at it a long time. I think Kim Mulkey doesn't have one of those, and neither does Don Stahler. It is one of a kind. Yes. That's true. Right, right. And that number represented the all-time record for victories at the time, male or female. Correct. Yes. Okay. So that's the coat. Thank you. It's a collector's item. Thank you.
Someday I'm going to lobby for that thing to be in the Smithsonian. Tara, let's tell people, what was your starting salary as a coach? Well, the first job I had actually was helping coach my sister's team, and I just got free room and board at my parents' house. But after that, I was a graduate assistant, and I volunteered my first year, $3,500 my second year, and as a head coach, $13,000. Wow.
13,000. Yeah. Can you pull your coat away from there? Yeah, just so. So is that better? Yeah. Okay. Okay. And what were you making your last year before you retired? It was a lot more. I think that the going rate probably was about 3 million for top coaches. So 13,000 to 3 million. All right. Let's talk about that arc. What the hell happened? Well...
You know, I've been really fortunate to be a part of a great -- I had great timing for coaching and horrible timing for playing. I think that people have recognized the value of women's sports, the value of participation. You listen to Christine say she was an athlete, and so many very successful C-suite women are athletes because it teaches you things.
I think that then our society in some ways has valued it. Title IX was the driving force of it, and I was really fortunate to have that opportunity to coach. All right, let's talk about teaching because you've always considered yourself a teacher. What have you been teaching all these years? I used to ask Pat Summitt this question too. What is it you're really teaching? Because it's more than basketball, right? I think the number one lesson I want to get across to our team is be a great teammate.
You know, it's not about your individual success. I use the analogy of an orchestra that different players have a great night, one night, but it's really important that everyone is excited for other people's success when you're part of a team. And I guess that being a great teammate is the thing that I work the hardest on teaching. So the collective, the ability to collaborate. You've used some interesting tools, right? Like the orchestra thing.
thing always fascinated me. I mean, one of the things about Tara, as long as I've known Tara, she's always been doing something on the side besides coaching. One year she was training for triathlons, but you also took classical piano. I did. But you've used music with your teams, have you not? Well, as a young girl, I played the flute, and I thought I was really good, actually. I had a great teacher, and then I had a teacher during the year. I had a great summer teacher, and then during the year,
My teacher actually made me physically ill going to the lesson, so I laid down the flute. I just told my parents I could not take from this teacher, but I quit the flute not knowing it was just the teacher that made me sick. And it was hard because I think she was a great flutist and everything, but...
I never did it well enough. So she wasn't encouraging or positive with me. And I learned that kind of the hard way. But then I wanted to take piano, and I thought I could teach myself. And after two weeks, that didn't work.
I got a great teacher, and I was making CDs in a year. I was really enjoying it. I would go to my lesson, and if I hadn't practiced, she'd say, let's just play duets. And she got me. And it was, I used the quote that she took me to a place I couldn't get by myself.
because she was such a great teacher. And I knew she cared about me, and that was something really special. And I think as a coach, that was different for me because I was a head coach when I was 22 years old, and now I was a student. And so it really helped me be a better coach. When you first decided to get into the coaching business, your dad gave you a piece of advice, right, about going into a man's business? Well, my...
You know, my dad actually, when I was growing up, I was a basketball junkie. I loved playing all the time, and there were no sports for girls, you know, any teams before Title IX. And my parents said to me in the ninth grade, Tara, come in and do your homework. Basketball is never going to take you anywhere.
And I was like, I knew algebra wasn't taking me anywhere. But, you know, I just I loved basketball so much. And when I did go into basketball coaching, my dad said, you know, it's going to be very challenging. But it's, you know, as a man in a man's world, he just said, you're going to have to do things twice as well. And then he said, but that's not hard. So that was my dad's way of, I think, encouraging me.
He also, my dad also had a lot of sayings, but he did not want me to take the Stanford job, which I took. I took it and I called him and I said, I'm thinking about it. And he gave me all the reasons why I shouldn't go to Stanford. And he said, it's a graveyard job. And I said, dad, it's a goldmine job. It involves digging, but it's a goldmine job. And I'm glad I was right about that. But he hung up the phone and said to my mother, she will be unemployed coming home living with us in three months. So I've done all right 40 years. Yeah.
What made you feel that way about it? About going to Stanford? Yeah. I love the idea of the combination of great academics and great academics and athletics. That to me was the ultimate challenge. I loved my job at Ohio State. We had great players, but Stanford to me was the ultimate challenge. And I did it for myself to see, can I compete at the highest level? And I thought that helped me prove that I could.
You know, we were talking backstage, and you said, look, it's a competitive world. Like, you have to learn skills, right? So when you were coaching these kids, what are some of the skills? What were you trying to get across to them that was going to help them, not just on the court, but going out into the working world? You know, I've had so many players. This always cracks me up.
I'll have so many players come back and say to me, "Tard, do you remember when you said this to me?" That was 20 years ago. I'm like, "Hell no, I don't remember saying that to you." But it's what, you know, coaches and teachers and parents, what you say, they remember. And what I want-- so I want to make sure that I really
Give them the message of being resilient. I think grit is the number one thing that I want our team to have, is that you get back up. And I was so interested to hear earlier talking about failure, how that's such a great thing
kind of almost necessary tool to have. And we had a dad that used to tell me, Tara, every disappointment is a blessing. You know, just to learn from your mistakes and to get better and just have that grit and resilience. And I guess, I don't know, somehow I got that. I feel like I don't get discouraged easily. And that's what I try to help communicate to our team and to our players. You know, just stay with things. Keep playing hard. And I just remember, like, games where we're down 26 in the first half, nothing's going right.
And all of a sudden, we just get a press going, and we turn around, and we end up winning the game by 18. You know, I just love the players I coach, and we're playing Notre Dame. We're down at halftime, 17. Nothing's going right. And I'm going to the locker room, and one of the players...
her name is Bird, runs by me and the coaches were talking about, oh my God, this is awful. And she goes, we got them right where we want them. And I'm like, what the heck game is she at? You know? And so I got in the locker room. I said the same thing. I said, we got them right where we want them. Who's going to guard Enrique? She had 25 already. You know? And it was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We ended up, you know, winning the game. And it was so, it was just, it was so exciting that it,
The game ended up on the last play when Arike was taking the shot and Bird comes back and blocks it and we go to the final four. So, you know, just not to be discouraged, just to keep working hard. Yeah.
You coached the '96 Olympic team, really a historical legacy team, right? Because it propelled two pro leagues into existence, the ABL and the WNBA, which there was only one survivor of that. But take us through that year because you took a leave of absence from Stanford. I mean, that was an extraordinary experience. I did. And you had to be fairly resilient early on with that team, right?
We had lost in the World Championships and this was, it kind of came back to two years later, Brazil had beaten us. We were on the same bus as Brazil. They're partying in the front of the bus and we're sitting in the back like, oh, we're just, our teeth were grinding, but we're saying worse. But we, I took a year off. I was introduced as the Olympic coach this way. This is not about bronze. This is not about silver. This is about gold, Tara Vanderveer. So I knew what the job was. And
We were going to train all year. And so August 4, 1995, which was one year before the '96 Olympics, I went for a run in California. And I run up the hill. And I get in the shower. And I'm like, oh my god, what if we're not in that game? And I kind of had a panic attack. And so I'm like, get out of the shower. I'm sitting down. I said, you know what you're doing. You've got a great team. Get back in the shower and rinse.
just do a double rinse of doubt. Get rid of the doubt. And I did. And from then on, I looked forward to that. So I think that in my mind, that was the most important thing I did was just never doubt what the outcome was going to be, just to really have confidence in that. And the competence first, doing the work. And then we would come to what-- we came to Washington DC.
We ran with President Clinton, and this was back in the day when he, before the vegan diet, and he wasn't really in great shape. And they said, one of his assistants said to me, "Well, now, coach, what if the girls can't keep up with him?" I was like,
We will cut them on the spot, you know, forget it. But, you know, we went running and it was, you know, he slowed down and he was kind of getting his breath. And then we jogged around. It was just awesome, though. In front of the press, he kind of sped up and I told our team, let's go. But it was just so thrilling to be, you know, in a circle with him and ask him a question about, you know, what he felt his legacy was as a president. But, yeah.
We also met on the same day, we met the two female Supreme Court justices
And Sandra Day O'Connor's from Stanford. She goes, Tara, I have a surprise for you. I'm thinking, what the heck could this be? I'm pinching myself because Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg was on the other side. And she goes, come on, we're going to the third floor. They had a basketball court up there. And the slanted ceiling. She goes, the highest court in the land. And now we're going to play with Lisa Leslie 6'6". And I'm just hoping Lisa don't block their shot. But we really had fun. It
It was a great-- and we won the gold medal. We won undefeated. And just when I was kind of feeling really good about it, I got home and I didn't have any food. So I went to the store and I'm getting some oranges. And a woman's looking at me kind of funny, like, you know how someone knows you? And she goes, now, didn't you just coach the Olympic team to a gold medal yesterday? I said, yeah. She goes, you're shorter than I thought. We've talked about, for a lot of young women,
confidence is an issue. So how would you deal with that as a coach? I don't really like the word confidence. I like competence and just really working hard to get in the gym early, not reading the press clippings, but just getting better every day. And I really like to go to the gym, turn up the music, and
Have fun. Sports, I think, should be really fun. And I want to keep it fun for people so that they really like to play. But there are times where-- I know that I had that kind of just a little bit of a quote
message to myself in the shower. And we had a young lady at Stanford who was a good player, not a great player, but she was a good player. And we struggled. We lost the game and she was a senior and she was all really crying. And so I said, you know, hey, how about reading this book, The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale, you know, just help her self-confidence. And she comes out and she'd been really kind of an average player. And we play in the tournament and she becomes the MVP of this tournament.
And I'm like patting myself on the back thinking, wow, that was a great idea giving that book. And my assistant coach said, Tara, if you were so smart, you would have given her that book her freshman year.
So it was difficult to get. You couldn't recruit the types of players always that you wanted, right? Tell the crowd about having your annual meetings with admissions. Well, Stanford is a wonderful place, and I knew it was kind of a challenge of who can get in. That was why my dad didn't want me to go to Stanford. He just thought you won't get great talent. I said, Dad, we just need three or four a year. But I would sit with our...
Dean of Admissions and she would look at transcripts and nope, that's not happening. What were you thinking about that one? And it's challenging, but you know, I really, I think that, I think education is so important.
And Stanford isn't for everyone, but it is for certain people that really want that combination. But I loved coaching the Olympic team and everyone didn't go to Stanford. And I loved coaching Ohio State in Idaho where I was. And just the excitement of the game and the combination of great academics and athletics I think is really important.
As a mentor, what did you learn over the years was the most important quality in a leader? If you could, if you could, what are the most important qualities that you think that, first of all, that you acquired and that you were trying to transmit to your other, to your student leaders?
Well, I just think it's really caring about the people that you work with, that they know that you really care about them and that you're about them. You know, there's a lot of different quotes, but I think that one that stands out to me is you don't have to be a leader to serve, but you have to serve.
serve to be a leader. And I don't necessarily like to be the center of attention. I like to have great assistant coaches. I don't have to be the smartest one in the room, which I never am. But it's like, but how are you doing today? And how can I help you be the best that you can be? How can I help you achieve your goals? And that's the pleasure of coaching is to see people
take their game to the next level. And I use the analogy of going up on the high wire. If I'm asking someone to shoot that free throw with no time on the clock in front of 15,000 people, I'm asking you to go up on that high wire and I'm your net. And just believe that I'm going to be there for them and that they can trust me. So the trust, the caring, the
The fact that you have their back. And I think optimism and enthusiasm. I love what I do. I love every day. Being here with you is so special and it's something I really appreciate.
And just like the same thing with our team. I think it's a really underestimated quality. There's so much clinical study where leadership fails. Like what are the derailers for leaders? And it's when people don't trust the intention of the leader, apparently. Well, I think that you have to be authentic and you don't have to be yourself. And that's one thing I...
I haven't had a whole lot of trouble with. I just feel like this is who I am. I want to do a great job. I want to help our team be the best that we can be, working with people individually. And that's not to say that there aren't bumps in the road. I've had to have conversations with assistant coaches that this isn't working, and I'm going to stay, you need to leave.
And those are hard. I've had tough conversations with players, but I think more than anything it's the caring.
At the bottom line, my parents had a rule where we could not go to bed at night mad at anyone in our family. And I'm one of five, and I have a brother that, well, that was hard. I mean, really. But, you know, just the caring and the real relationships that I have of the players that I've coached are so incredibly special. And I've learned so much more from them, I think, than they've learned from me. I just have one player I'll tell you about recently.
One player I asked, she was a walk-on, hardly played. I said, what's your contribution to our team? She said, spread sunshine. We won a national championship. And that's what I hope that I can do too. Yeah. You know, I mentioned out here that you did it for 38 years. 35 of those years, you didn't get what you wanted, right? Yeah.
Well, you know, I think that I did get what I wanted. I don't know that we always won a national championship, but, you know, you can't say that every year you're...
Bring your a game, but I have I just have to look in the mirror I never I I don't keep anything. I don't have champion. I have championship rings I couldn't even tell you where they are But I never kept any of the nets that we cut down I gave them to the players on our team and assistants, but I have great memories Coach doesn't get a gold medal when you win a goal the Olympics so it only goes to the players but I I would disagree I would say that
You know, winning is not what I was about. We did win, and that was great because I didn't get fired, but it was more about when one of our players called me one hour after she had her first child. You know, it's like that's why I do it. Well done. Thank you. Yeah, you did it better than anybody in history, so...
When I retired, but that was never what it was for. But I do like the jacket. It's cool. You know, to me, it's just such a lesson in the winning has to be the byproduct, right? The hardware has to be the byproduct. I don't think you could possibly...
do it resiliently if you were hanging your hat on the victories day in and day out, right? 'Cause it was too-- - I don't remember a single score of a game. I mean, it's not that, that was not, but I can, you know, I mean, I remember players' birthdays, you know?
I remember other things and just loved going to the gym and just watching players improve and have them be able to do things and have them come back and say, "Tara, I learned this and I remember this and this has really helped me in my career." And I still kind of continue to coach them.
It seems like what really engages all the great coaches I've known is not so much the winning, but what it calls up of the discipline of your own internal process. Like you say, the ability to look in the mirror and know you did it in a way that you can live with, right? Right. And I think, you know, I guess I always wanted my parents to be proud of me.
So, like your dad, you know, I just... You just, you look to people that you're mentors or you're parents or you're teachers, and, you know, I want to do it right by them. And I'm... My younger sister's a basketball coach, too, and so I want to make sure I'm a great example for her. You told me one time that you would look at your players and think about your sister, right? Right. Well, I started coaching...
My parents, I went home. I ran out of money.
after college. I wanted to take a year off. I ran out of money. I went home at Christmas. They were excited I was home, but after, about a week later, my dad said, what are you doing? I said, well, I thought I was just going to hang out and come down for dinner when you called. And he's like, oh, no. They just passed Title IX. My younger sister, five years younger, was playing basketball, and I was going to go coach her team. They had lost the night before 99 to 11. I was not that excited about this, but I did. And when I came home, I learned two important lessons the first night. My sister...
I love my sister, but she was never in the driveway practicing. And when we got home, my mom said, how come you didn't play Marie more? I'm like, Mom, Marie can't shoot. And she doesn't play defense. And my parents were like, but she's so nice. And one thing is, parents are delusional. They're not realistic at all.
But I love my sister, and everyone on a team is someone's sister. And if there might be times where I might want to just strangle a player just because they were doing exactly the wrong thing that we'd practiced 100 times, but you just remind yourself that is someone's sister and to really make sure that you care about each person that you coach. And I don't have to like every single player, but I have to love them, and I do.
It's a great place to leave the conversation. Thank you. Thanks, Sally. Thanks for listening. For more conversations like these, be sure to follow our Washington Post Live podcast page on Spotify and stay tuned every Friday for our weekly episodes. I'm Sally Jenkins, signing off for Washington Post Live.
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