Creator to Creator
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I'm Dave Jorgensen, senior video reporter at The Post, coming to you from Cannes. Here in France, I had the pleasure of sitting down with two of the creator economy's most influential voices: Colin Rosenblum and Samir Chaudhry. You might know them from YouTube, where they've built a loyal audience on The Colin and Samir Show by breaking down the latest in the creator economy with creators themselves. But what sets them apart is their understanding of what makes a good story in an ever-evolving, overcrowded, and often chaotic media landscape.

We talked about how legacy media can learn from today's creators, how YouTube has become the new TV, and what generative AI means for the competition for attention. Keep listening. Colin, I want to talk about the Colin Samir show right off the top here. So what was the impetus for the creation of that? And Samir, I also want to ask how it's evolved since then.

So the impetus for it truly started with Sameer and I just realizing that these were the conversations we were having off camera. You know, we had worked with a lot of creators, helping them with their videos and found the space fascinating. You know, today it's one of the most sought after careers, but we feel like it's also the least understood. Yeah. So we had a natural passion for it and we were having these conversations over coffee anyway. We were getting excited about it and took to a podcast to start sort of sharing our journey. And

realized that by having guests on the show, by talking about it, we were sort of writing the textbook in real time. Before it was even called the Creator Economy. - Right. And this is, and I wanted, Samir, I wanted you to talk about how it's evolved, but just like the podcast part of it too, I think is so interesting because obviously the last five years, everyone has a podcast. So how does it feel to sort of be way ahead of that? Do you feel any sort of like possession over like, no, we started, but like we were part of the original initial wave? - No.

No, definitely. No, I don't feel any possession over any of it. I think...

Creativity has almost become like open source in a way, right? Where it's like you throw something out into the world and people iterate off of it. And I think all media is interactive today. Yeah. And people expect that. Right. But to go to like where things have evolved, first and foremost, I think like we live in a really interesting moment in time in creativity. And in 2010, when I uploaded my first YouTube video, I think what was so wonderful about YouTube and what still is wonderful today is that

What exists today that never existed before is like an MVP of content. - Right. - Right? So like that existed at the same time as startups and tech was starting to emerge, people were throwing out an MVP of an app and basically what's the minimum viable product, throw this out, let's see how people engage with it and then let's build the app based on that. - Yeah. - That never existed in film and TV.

Right? Maybe you could look at like the first season of The Office and go that's pretty different from the third season of The Office. And that was technically like a pilot season was an MVP. Right. But it was really high cost. It was really a lot of logistics. And our first video, we opened up a MacBook, spoke into it, no edits, published it. Right. Saw how people interacted with it and then started iterating based on it.

And so the way the show has evolved is week to week with that same pace of iteration for the past 15 years, right? That's just been how we've evolved. I think any good show on YouTube, the creator is a part of the audience, which is we are very much a part of our own audience. So we've always built the show that we wish we had.

I think the natural tension as you grow business in the creator economy is something we were talking about in the green room. When you first start, the audience is your boss. That is for sure like those are the people that matter the most to you.

And as you start to commercialize your show, revenue starts to creep in and you start to ask the question, who's my boss? Is it the audience or is it the advertisers? Is it the dollars coming in? Just to answer that question, the audience is always your boss. You'll learn that quickly because revenue goes away if the audience goes away. But I think there's like a natural tension in that as you start to commercialize your creativity.

What started as a podcast has evolved into us doing behind the scenes documentaries and exploring the world of creators. The format has changed, but the audience and the value proposition has remained the same. The audience is absolutely creators, people like us, and the value prop is education. So we try and educate people about the career of being a creator. That format will continue to take new shapes over the next five years, but the audience and the value prop will remain the same.

So when you talk about the audience, this is something I've thought a lot while watching, especially a recent one. You were talking about the audience is your boss. You said something to that extent. Exactly. And I was curious, you're building the audience. How much of the audience is a reflection of you? Do you know what I mean? So that this audience is there because of what you bring to the table, what you value. So how much of that is like you're telling them versus they're telling you? What's that give and take? Yeah.

they will tell you, they'll vote with their views. Right. So like, um, and the comments and the comments, definitely. You'll learn pretty quickly. Um, I think, uh, if you were like, if you think about the spectrum of an artist and what we call a distributor, an artist considers the audience last, right? They express what they want to express and their impetus for creation is like inspiration, right?

And a distributor is like the guy, the studio executive who's like, "You know what we need to do? Make another Spider-Man." Because people come and see Spider-Man. And I think as a creator you have to live somewhere in the middle, probably more towards the side of distributor than the side of artist, especially if you're building a company. You can be an artist if you don't have a ton of overhead, if you don't have employees. But I think no matter what, the audience is going to dictate what formats you create. You're going to learn from success.

If you don't like making it, then you're never going to win because you have to do it for so long. We made our show for five years with no one watching, with no financial upside, which is a crazy thing to do, but you have to enjoy doing it. But the audience will inform you which format to do it in.

I completely, go ahead. I would just say, I think to give some specific examples, there's a couple different ways that it'll happen. One of which is we're sitting with a creator. They say something interesting. We were just sitting down with Corridor Crew, which is a massive VFX channel on YouTube. And we asked him, why do you publish on Saturdays? And he was like, because it's the highest amount of internet traffic.

And we were like, "Oh, okay. So what are we doing publishing on Tuesdays?" Right? So it was like a light bulb moment for us. And that informed us that this is something creators should know. So it's either us telling our audience what we think they should know, on the flip side, our audience will tell us. So we had an interview with Mark Zuckerberg on the channel. We're really excited about it. Comments were overwhelmingly negative.

Turns out people don't like him. Yeah, but it actually wasn't totally about the nature of Mark Zuckerberg. It was sort of the way that we approached the interview. People felt in the comments like we were not representing creators, that we had sort of interviewed him as Mark Zuckerberg, the public figure, not necessarily the guy that we could get really in the weeds with on the creator economy. So that was like a preparation problem, right?

Right, on our end, and it's sort of the light bulb. You go, okay, we need to adjust, and they're telling us that. So, and I don't think I've seen anything to this extent, but have you, when you see that, and you say, we need to adjust, do you ever kind of have a follow-up video where you own that, or do you kind of go, let's just, I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, but I've seen creators take that both ways, where they're like, oh, I'm sorry, I should have done this. You kind of just spiral and go back and forth. Should I put this video out, or should we not? I'm always team, like, yes, we should address that. Yeah. But we...

I think it can sometimes feel like which form should that take because you read the feedback and you're like, that's fair feedback. So the video would be pretty short. So there's different options. You can do a newsletter, which we have, or a community tab post. But I do think the whole thing, the expectation of media today is that it's interactive, is that when you say that to us, you're actually creating the show with us.

we're not just sitting here and making the show for you. It's a collaborative relationship. So I do think that is the expectation of audiences. There's a cool stat about YouTube. I'll give you just a specific example, but like the GTA trailer, right? GTA 6 trailer did like 93 million views when it came out on YouTube, right? But on the same 24 hour period, fan made content about the GTA trailer did 127 million views.

So I just think that's an important thing to recognize about the state of the internet today. It's like we are throwing something out to our audience and then they're going to play with it in a way that they might enjoy more than what we make for them. Right, right. And like, you know, there's another example, which is the most viewed video of Colin and Samir on the internet is not made by Colin and Samir. It's made by one of our audience members. Okay.

And it's a TikTok that's a clip from our episodes, right? If you take the aggregate of all the clips made by other people, they dwarf our viewership, right? Like they, or sorry, like they just dominate our viewership. So I think that's like when we talk about that, even in the context of feedback, it's like we're throwing something into the world. Our fans are going to just start to play with it. And it's a very foreign relationship today in media to go,

Here, watch this. The end. Right. Right. So it's an interactive relationship. Well, I completely agree. And I sort of cut my teeth on TikTok, so to speak. And that was exact. Like I always said, we can jump on a trend, but let's build on the trend. And I think that's kind of the same thing that happens with YouTube. It's not necessarily a trend, but let's build on what this was and talk more about it.

And I want to, you brought up Mark Zuckerberg. You're also the CEO of Instagram, CEO of YouTube, Mr. Beast, of course. And we just talked about kind of the audience reaction. So on a broader level, what do you think is your responsibility as creators in these interviews? Not just with Mark Zuckerberg, but in general. Yeah, in my opinion, it's what Samir said about our value prop, right? Our value prop is education. So for me, it's about following that lane.

and make sure we're respecting the things that Sameer and I want to know at this point of our career as career professional creators, but also the aspiring creators. It's super important no matter who we sit down with, even if they have 100 million subscribers, that we're asking the questions that are accessible and understandable.

So in that vein, I'm losing my mind slowly. I think of myself kind of as a journalist and a creator. And I know you all have kind of said, no, we're more creator-storytellers. So what's that distinction? Can you tell me why you think differently there? I just feel like journalism has a code, does it not?

Yeah, I mean, for sure. That I'm not aware of. I guess it depends on who you ask. But yes, I think so. Yeah, and I think these terms are getting mixed in a way. I think what's challenging for me is like creator is very ad-backed. We are sponsorship-driven ad-backed. Right. That, to me, feels at odds with a journalist. Yeah. Because we work with a lot of

We are sponsored by a lot of tech platforms. I'm going to be biased towards them during a sponsorship. Right. And I can definitively say this is a sponsor, this is not. But the way we work is as educators, as a media platform, I just don't think that the way journalism works is the same way that ad-backed media works.

And I know those are really similar today, but we were talking back in the green room again that I think subscription is a much better model for journalism because the audience should be 100% your boss in that context. I think the second you start mixing in advertisers and maybe your editors like, hey, that story we're about to publish about Google, like Gemini just bought an ad with us. Can we not? Yeah. That's a dangerous place for journalism to live. For sure. That's where creators live. Yeah.

I think you're absolutely right. I mean, so as a post employee, when I make videos, I don't have any, the ads go up separately. I can't talk about the product. And if we talk about Amazon, we have to say Jeff Bezos, who owns the post, whatever, all these different things. They always think I'm trying to like throw shade. I'm like, no, I just have to say this journalistically. But that's a really good way to make that distinction, I think. But I still think in that, whether you're taking the journalism part out, you still are building trust with the audience. Would you agree, Colin, that like part of the point is just like,

everything like we want to we have a responsibility at least for the audience to trust that we are going to do our best to give the best interview here. Does that make sense? Yeah, within the lens of I think education and you're definitely right. We need to build trust with our audience. Right. This whole business is built on trust. It's also about building trust with our guests. Right. So that they feel like this is a comfortable safe space to share what they've learned. How many people in the audience are creators or make some type of media online?

Drew, raise your hand. Thank you. I'm Shadowhose. How many of you guys watch YouTube? What about-- is your primary place YouTube, or is it TikTok? Or is it LinkedIn? Or is there not-- you can shout out your platform. LinkedIn, YouTube, TikTok. That's probably my only-- That's very specific. And Facebook.

Interesting. Cool. Okay, I just wanted to get a sense of that. He's covered every demographic. Yeah, that gives you the answers too. Yeah, for sure. Well, okay, so you mentioned this kind of right off the top, but to go into more of it, there's like a spectrum of artists versus kind of, what do you call it? Distributor. Distributor. And you guys lean more towards distributor. I think you said 75%. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah, I think like we are a media company, right? So the reason I say that is because we, listen, we...

We get very excited about a lot of ideas. My most niche addiction is domain names. I buy a ton of domain names. I get really excited about an idea and I just buy the... Literally, GoDaddy has called before and just thanked me for my business because I'll just...

buy a domain every time I'm excited about an idea. Now, to commercialize your creativity is like a very specific thing, right? You're building within a format. The audience has to expect something. That thing has to get better. Advertisers have to know how to engage with that thing. You're building a process around a creative product.

And there's an element of, there's like the creative impulse starts that and then it turns into a format that needs process around it. Right, right. That is very much something that where we're looking at, it's like when you're running an ad-backed business, you can't have a video tank. And so new ideas, we have them, right? And we produce them, but we don't typically commercialize those. So when we're thinking through the lens of the Colin and Samir show, what gets challenging is it's like, oh man, I'd love to have a conversation with this maybe auteur filmmaker. Mm-hmm.

but does our audience want that? Yeah. And we have to consider what our audience

Now, okay, we'd like to have this conversation. Can we build a new format for that that we can experiment with? Let's not put any advertiser around it. Let's make that, you know, like a new thought from us. But our day-to-day, like the business, the reason we have employees, the reason we pay for a studio is to support the Colin and Samir show. And that is a commercialized idea that is growing. And again, it's like a container that we can be creative within, but you break that container too much and now the whole thing starts to fall apart.

part. And so that's why you have to think about the audience when you are living on YouTube.

There is a very clear-cut first rule of YouTube, which is if they don't click, they don't watch. And I'm sure that exists, too, in the context of news and articles. It exists on everything. If the headline is not interesting, they don't read it. And so then you are thinking audience first. Yeah. I totally agree. In fact, I treat my videos the same way I learned in journalism school, which is inverted pyramid. We're like, let me really try to get them right, and then I'll have more details as we go. But if I really got to hook them at the beginning, and maybe, you know,

sprinkle things in throughout to kind of make sure they're paying attention. Colin, you mentioned in a recent interview that kind of what Samir was just, you have these one-off little experiments basically. Can you tell me more about those and like how they succeed or don't succeed when you try, like let's do something outside of the-- - Sure, so we look at it as a creator you have to have an engine, right, that allows you to experiment. So for us, like you said, the engine is the Colin and Samir show, it's the basis of our business, it's what allows us to progress and keep moving forward and like continue to build trust with that audience.

as naturally creative people who own as many domains as Samir owns, like, we also just need to explore different things for our own sake, for our own creativity, but I think also for the future of the business. Yeah. Right? So I do believe it is really important for us to be able to experiment with... Well, like, what's specific? Give me, like, one recently. So I'll...

I mean, last year we made it a goal to make four documentary-style pieces. Right. So the majority of the episodes were podcast episodes, and then four of them were documentary-style. We did one with Mr. Beast at Beast Games, following how that came together. Right. So that, although it's an experiment, we know that's going to perform well. Yeah. Right? There are other episodes we've done where we've done studio tours. So we did a studio tour with...

Ludwig, right? We did a studio tour with Mark Rober. These are episodes that don't necessarily have as much of a defined format for us. We don't really know how long they're going to take and we don't always know how well they're going to do. Our audience is not waiting for them, right? They're waiting for the Colin and Samir show. And because we don't know how it's going to perform, we don't know how the audience is going to perceive it, and we don't know the timeline of production, that's also why we don't integrate brand deals into that.

That makes a lot of sense. Before I forget, I want to know the weirdest domain that you still are holding on to. Do you still have hawaiianshirt.party? Yeah. That one's good. Is that for Drew? Yeah. That I bought a long time ago, but I've renewed it. What was the thinking behind hawaiianshirt.party?

Do you even need to? I don't know if you need to ask. If you need to ask, I'm not in the club. Let's chat up. Yeah. We have a domain. I'm not going to share it, but I'll tell you what the company is. It's a flavored toothpick brand that I contacted. Great domain for that. Okay. We had an idea for a gum that had caffeine and L-theanine in it called Noodle Gum. So we have noodlegum.com.

Gum never came together, but the brand came together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. An alarm clock company. Oh, Upright? Upright. Yeah, great alarm clocks. What, did it just push you upright? No, it was just, this is back in like, I bought the domain in like 2015 before morning routines became a thing. And we were kind of seeing that trend emerge and we got really into trying to figure out a good morning routine and

I developed a brand called Upright where it was an alarm clock, but it was a subscription to other people's morning routines. Okay. So you could subscribe to like Tim Ferriss's morning routine. Okay. We're like brand builders, right? BrushYourTeeth.world. Oh, BrushYourTeeth.world is good. Yeah.

Just a reminder. Well, I wrote a kid's song about brushing your teeth, and I made a music video for it. I was going to build a toothbrush brand around it. Again, the thing is, if you're a creative person, you cannot help but create, but you have to observe yourself and go, which ideas are totally irrational and which ideas are commercial?

And you have to be able to do both, because I will go crazy if I can't buy my domains. Yeah. But-- I actually think hawaiianshirt.party is incredibly commercial. It would have hit. We just didn't fall for it. We still could. You have buy-in right here. We had a good landing page.

Well, you're right though. I mean, this is the sort of like outlet of like, okay, we have the engine of Colin Samir's show. Like we have these documentaries. This is another version of that. Just like, let me see if this is something. Yeah, and you just have to like, Jordan Peele talked about this when he wrote Get Out. He talked about how like he wrote that script at night for fun. Right, right. I just think that is so important as a creative individual. Absolutely. What is the thing where...

you are actually creatively expressing with maybe no judgment or no intent to share. Because there was a time in creativity where we would practice our creativity in private before we shared it. Today, it's pretty odd for anyone in this room to just make something without the intent to share it.

And I think you have to have a space to make stuff without the intent to share, to actually get good at being a creative person. I think you're totally right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if any, that's part of the reason that I like TikTok for so long and love YouTube. But TikTok is like, if it doesn't work today, tomorrow, no one remembers. No one even sees it. TikTok is like, I have some crazy TikToks out

Yeah, he's got crazy drops. I've just made because I know no one's seen them. Yeah, and there's a relief in that. We're like, oh, it didn't work on him. I was going to remember it. Yeah, exactly. There's some really good Drew ones, but we'll get to that later. Okay, Colin, bringing it back a little bit to just the fact that we're at the Washington Post Lounge, what do you think that legacy media can learn from what you all are doing or content creators in general? I feel like today the creators that are doing really well, especially in the news and journalism space, are creators who are –

obviously acting really quickly, but also in a way that it doesn't feel like they are beholden to anyone. Right? I think that's something that audiences have a tougher time with legacy media now because it does feel like legacy media is afraid to fail. Yeah. Right? And creators move so quick, so often, that we can't be afraid to fail. When we sat down with the head of Instagram, Adam Mosseri,

He talked to us about how his PR and comm strategy was just to speak to his phone and put videos out on an incredibly quick basis. And he said to his team, he was like, look, I'm not going to be perfect. We're going to have to clean some stuff up afterwards. But I'm not going to do it any other way.

And I think there's a bit of that, of course, with news and journalism, you have to understand your facts. Right, right. But there's a bit of that, of just like, hey, let's move faster than we're currently moving and understand we may have to clean some things up.

Yeah. I mean, we describe it at the post as like we're trying to move a big ship sometimes to get there. There's plenty of really hard workers on that ship, but how do we get it? I do think news is very readily available at all times. So news, and I'm going to get my news in a very decentralized way. I don't really care where I'm going to get it. It might be from an Instagram story. It might be from a tweet. It might be from a friend. I'm going to get a current event somehow. I'm not going to get it from the post.

What I'm going to go to someone for is their perspective.

Right? I'm going to go to someone for their opinion or perspective. So I think news void of opinion and perspective is a commodity. Do you think a person being on camera is much more-- not more important, but very important to establishing a relationship with a news outlet or a news entity? Yeah, I think people follow people. I don't think you have to be on camera. I think if you're bad at being on camera, you can be in audio form. I think you can be in written form. I think you can be in many different forms.

But I do think people follow people at this point. - Yeah, like a name to identify with. - Yeah, like I really do. I think it's very hard to follow a brand today. I think it's very easy to follow a person.

Yeah. Well, I mean, case in point, when I started making the post TikToks, they thought my name was Washington and I was posting. They really did not know. Yeah. Which is hilarious. That would be dope. No, truly. Because, I mean, it was 20. Yeah, I know. They were like, great job watching them. I'm like, thanks. I'm not going to. Okay. Well, you know, so kind of related to all that, digital content itself in the last 20 years has really evolved and changed significantly.

I mean, I don't think people even use the phrase digital content maybe in the same way. So how would you define it now? Like just the phrase digital content versus 20 years ago? Yeah, I don't know if that phrase makes sense because everything is internet video. If I go home and watch Netflix, I'm streaming a video from the internet. Right. So I think...

Yeah, what is the inverse? Like a VHS tape? I think so. I mean, like, you know, so, you know, the post, we still have a physical paper and there are subscribers. Oh, I see, like analog content. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that stuff is very special today. I think...

I don't know if a newspaper is going to be what a record is today, like in the future, or maybe it already is. We produce a newspaper on a once-a-year basis because we think it's really cool and fun. I think there is a specialty feeling to that. Digital content, if we pull on the thread of the next five to ten years, what it's going to be, who knows? It's going to be very... When we talk about how people engage with

digital media right now, that is also what is happening in the context of LLMs, right? - Yeah. - If I'm asking a question to ChatGPT or to Claude, it is playing with media that is already existing, source material, and giving me a version of that, right? Or a derivative of that. And so we're gonna get to a point where we might not even be able to track the original source of what it is, it's just derivatives of pieces of content that originate somewhere. - Interesting, okay. - Has anyone played with Google Vue?

Has anyone prompted video with that? So that's like derivatives of video that already exists. And so if we keep exploring that, most likely, the most likely scenario is that when I'm, this is a recent thing I searched on TikTok, like how to cut a pineapple. It's going to be, how do I cut this pineapple with this knife that I have in front of me right now and produce me a video based on that in real time.

And so digital content is going to be very bespoke, very customized to you across the board, whether in text, audio, or video. We all might, in five to ten years, maybe three years, have one-of-one content experiences before we get together. Everyone prompted their own podcast this morning. Everyone prompted their own video. Everyone prompted their own facts through their own LLM. Right?

That's also just a continuation of what's already been happening. You think about the fact that there were a couple newspapers, then there were blogs, there were five TV channels, then social media comes along and everyone is incredibly niche and is into their own creators. So it's just a continuation of what's already happening. I think digital content will be very bespoke, one-of-one, personalized. And analog content will be the collective experience.

Right? Or like going to the movies might actually be more interesting. Yeah.

Or going to a concert is more interesting because you're with other people. I think that shift is very, I think people specifically go to movies now not just because, oh, it came out. It's because I want to see it with people. Yeah, I want to be sitting next to someone who laughs at the same time. Yeah, they're thinking about that. The movies that do well now, too, are the movies where there's something happening in the theater that's worth filming and sharing. Right. Whether it's Barbie, everyone's showing up dressed up. Right, right. Minecraft, where everyone was throwing popcorn and going nuts. Yeah, yeah. What was the phrase? Chicken jockey? Chicken, yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right, we're good. All right.

Okay, so you mentioned podcasts and kind of niche, but there's a really great video you guys had in November. It's called How YouTube Podcasts Predicted the 2024 Election. I think it's spot on. I think actually from a journalistic standpoint, there's some really great numbers that you put in there just talking about between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump, how many views they got. So Colin, can you expand on the argument that you laid out in the video a little bit and explain here why podcasts predicted the 2024 election? Sure, so in that video, we just...

I mean, we were experiencing this as everyone else was. We were just looking at the very different media strategies taking place between the two candidates. And so in the beginning of that video, we just tally up the amount of podcast appearances that Donald Trump did versus Kamala Harris. Importantly, we didn't just tally up views. We tallied available times.

And I think available time was the metric that predicted, which I think, if my memory is correct, it was 16 hours of available time to spend with Donald Trump and four hours of available time to spend with Conley Harris total across all their appearances. And that metric to me felt really important because time spent is the metric of engagement.

Well, we've learned since that, Joe Rogan, the part of it was that she only wanted to do it an hour. Exactly. And that's why I said no. Yeah. I don't think you can get... In our experience as being hosts of podcasts, in hour one or like...

at an hour and a half in, I get the real you. Because you can't, unless you're an incredible actor, you cannot fake it at an hour and a half in to a conversation. That's when you get the real person. - So we're gonna stay here another hour? - Yeah, yeah. But for real, you can't fake it at that point. And so today, who are the most culturally relevant creators? Kai Sinat.

He's available eight hours a day. Hasan Piker, available eight hours a day. High Show Speed, available eight hours a day. And that is where you develop such an intimate relationship

And I think in the context of podcasts, when that person's like between your ears and you're doing something else, you might end up spending more time with that podcast or that guest than you do talking to your best friend, your mom, you know, anyone else. Well, yeah, just straight back and forth, of course. Yeah. Yeah. And you're not even speaking. You're just listening. So I think available time is a metric to really look out for in terms of creators and

When we're talking about politicians in the next election, that will probably be a determining factor again. How much time can I spend with this person as a person? Yeah. I think, too, the fact that the majority of the podcasts are hosted by comedians is something not to overlook. The role that humor played, right? And the responsibility of those comedians to their audience is not journalistic integrity. It's humor. Right. Right? And humor creates, like, a shared experience. It makes you feel good. And so...

That's how people felt, right? After watching Donald Trump and having that much available time, humor played a major role. And that's, especially for a younger audience, that's going to be much more interesting or attractive to them than maybe policies they're not as familiar with or care about in sort of that political sphere. Okay, how much time do we have? Are we good on time? I just want to make sure I have no clock available. It's been like 30 minutes. Okay, how much time do you all have?

Forever? 90 minutes? No, we're pretty wall-to-wall today. That's why I worry. Okay, we'll wrap it up soon here. Okay, all right.

Thanks for doing this, by the way. I really appreciate it. I wish I really did have 90 minutes with you. Actually, really quick on that. You mentioned you were very specific on hour and a half. I feel like all of your videos are about 90. Is that by design? We're like, let's get them here as long as they're... It's just as good as the content is good. But I will say that the world of YouTube today, the majority of viewership is happening on connected TVs. YouTube is winning that battle.

More people when they turn on their living room connected TV are opening YouTube than any other app. More than Netflix, more than Hulu, more than Disney+. Our viewership is 50% on connected TVs with an average view duration of 48 minutes. That is...

That's crazy. That's crazy. And I don't think that would have been, I mean, five years, ten years ago, that wouldn't have. No. We were making, I mean, you know, why did Jeffrey Katzenberg make Quibi? Because he thought mobile devices were where people wanted to watch content. He thought they wanted to watch seven minutes. Right.

it's not the case actually. Just good storytelling people want to enjoy in the way that people have always enjoyed good storytelling. And so, yeah, I think it's not by design, but it's just, it's also this interplay of what the audience wants, which is longer videos because they're watching on

a TV and switching on a TV is a pain in the ass. Right. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Our connected TV remotes have not caught up to our desire for a seamless experience. Right. Okay. So on that and last question, I'll let you go. What is that? What does the creator economy can YouTube or more broadly look like in the next five years for question for both of y'all to start with Colin? Um, I know that's an impossible question by the way. Sure. Well, I think a lot of what you'll probably hear people talking about and something that YouTube is specifically behind, uh, is this push, uh,

Towards creators looking more like Hollywood you hear from YouTube that YouTube is the new TV if you think about why that happened You can't underscore the importance of the YouTube app showing up on all these TVs and being free right right and so as creators started uploading the TV audiences were ready to watch longer content and

creators were able to place ads, more ads than normal. They were able to make more money and invest back in their companies, hire people. And now you're looking at a lot of creator companies that have a lot of built out infrastructure. And they're not just reacting on a whim and putting something out in a day or two. They actually know what's coming out.

in Q3, Q4. And that's gonna drastically change the type of content you're seeing produced from independent people and organizations. The fact that there's now a financial model for them to compete on a screen

where you're seeing the likes of Netflix and Hulu. So I think you're gonna see, of course, YouTube is a major home for unscripted, but I think you're gonna start to see a lot of scripted content as well. At least you'll see companies experiment with it. - At the same time, I think we have to take a look at where time and attention is moving on the internet. So for those of you who have prompted either a video or an image with GPT-4, how many people have done that? Almost everyone in the room? Would you consider that a fun experience?

Slow experience. Slow. Okay. But is the output engaging to you when you prompt something and get an image back? So if we pull on that thread, and I know I just asked a leading question, but... Isn't that great? Yeah. Wouldn't you agree? So I think that is my concern when I think about my role on the internet. It is to put out content that you want to sit with for a long period of time. Mm-hmm.

I was recently driving in an Uber from Manhattan to JFK, which is the most painful Uber ride. I don't know if you guys have all experienced that. I hate that Uber ride. It always makes me want to throw up. But typically, I fill my time and distract myself with Instagram or a podcast or YouTube. But this trip, I prompted images the entire time on GPT. And I had a great time. And when I got there, I was like, oh, shit.

that was really entertaining. That's a problem for the future. Again, I think we have to consider that in five years, if our entertainment is more bespoke to us, if I just went through that car ride, you also went through that car ride, and we had one-of-one internet experiences on the way there, that means the role of creators changes dramatically. And I think we will always want...

shepherds and shamans through the internet. But the utility of entertain me, teach me something, show me something might be a one-of-one experience. Which means the middle class and the aspiring creator, it might get unbelievably challenging for them to break out. And the top creators who are producing high-end storytelling, scripted content, stuff that's competing with Hollywood and high-level storytelling will emerge to the top. But to make it in this like

this world of like I make a living wage being a creator, I think might get more and more challenging as our time and attention goes towards generative content. - That makes a lot of sense. And we'll see if that's true. We'll come back here in five years. - Yeah, yeah. - We might not even be here. - Yeah. - We'll send our-- - Yeah, I'll get in. Okay, thank you. Colin Smear, thank you so much. - Thanks, thank you so much. Appreciate it. - Thank you for your time.

Thanks for listening. And be sure to follow our Washington Post Live podcast page on Spotify for more dynamic conversations. I'm Dave Jorgensen, signing off for Washington Post Live.

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