Sen. Dave McCormick, Dina Powell McCormick and Mary Barra join The 'Ship
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I'm Kwari Alleyne with The Washington Post, and welcome to Washington Post Live.

Thanks for tuning in as we share another interview from our new series, The Ship. It's our new leadership series exploring themes like stewardship, sportsmanship, mentorship. My colleague, Bina Venkantraman, had the opportunity to sit down with Dina Powell McCormick and her husband, Senator Dave McCormick, authors of a new book, Who Believed in You? They were also joined by Mari Barra, CEO of General Motors. They've

They discuss the power of mentorship, how mentorship fits into the American dream, and what we can all learn from failure. The value of failure is the thing that happens often before success. That is something that I, you know, as painful as it was, I wouldn't trade. So we're going to talk about a lot of things, but Dina, I want to start with you because you have co-authored with the Senator this new book, Who Believed in You?, which is about mentorship.

And you talk about what it takes to be a good mentor and a good mentee in this book. So can you illuminate for us a little bit about that? Sure. Well, Bina and Dina, it's great to be with you all. And we are so honored that Mary joined us for this. I think her chapter in the book is just really remarkable. And this book didn't start out as a book. Maybe I'll just give two seconds of how this all came about. Dave and I have six daughters between us.

And surviving that was harder than surviving a losing Senate campaign and a winning one. And writing a book. And writing a book. But during COVID, we really realized that this generation had lost so much more than just prom or high school graduation. They had really lost two to three years of that seminal human connectivity, the connection

high school coach that believes in you, the college professor, the first boss that tells you what nobody else is really going to tell you when you show up the first day. And we started talking to them about the fact that Dave and I wouldn't be where we are without one or two people who truly changed our life. They saw something in us that we didn't see in ourselves.

And you talked about your grandmother Nora. My grandmother Nora. Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Yes. You've had an array of mentors. So incredibly blessed. I mean, the one that maybe I would have never gotten to Washington without was Senator K. Bailey Hutchison. I am an immigrant from Cairo, Egypt.

My family immigrated to Texas when I was five years old. I didn't speak English. Learned English fairly quickly. Texan took me a lot longer. And in the midst of waitressing my way through the University of Texas, I met Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, who told me that she saw something in me, defer law school and come work for me for a year as an intern, which completely freaked out my immigrant parents, who were horrified I wasn't going to law school. But I remember her saying to me, Dina, if you don't take a risk on yourself, no one will ever take a risk on you.

And that path led me to have the honor of serving two presidents and working at Goldman Sachs with Jessica Lightburn to build 10,000 small businesses with Mary and other leaders. So that take a risk thing was big for me. - Okay, so a good mentor tells you to take a risk when you might be a little too afraid or a little too shy to take the risk. What does a good mentee do?

A good mentee, and we actually did a study with the Yale School of Management, 2200 young adults, to figure out how do these relationships really become productive. The mentee is mentorable. That's the key phrase that we use in the book. Actually know what is it that you're seeking from that mentor. Be realistic about the time that they're really gonna have to spend with you. And probably most importantly, be vulnerable. Be open to constructive feedback, which is the greatest gift that you can get.

Mary talking in the video about this generation rents their jobs, they don't own them. That's the kind of feedback that those of us who are serving as mentors really need to give. And I think when you have what we call transformational mentoring, mentees really want much more of a meaningful relationship, way more than transactional mentoring. It's very important to have somebody look at your resume and get you the interview, but for a

finding your purpose in life, transformational mentoring is so critical. Okay. There's a point in the book where you talk about when a mentor becomes a tormentor, which made me laugh out loud. What do you do to avoid being a tormentor? And how do you know when you have a tormentor and not a mentor and break it off? Well, I have to out who it is because it's in the book. It's public. But Lloyd Blankbein, the CEO of Goldman Sachs, who was my boss for my first 10 years there, was just

an remarkable mentor in every way. And we would have never gotten the direction to build 10,000 women, 1 million black women, 10,000 small businesses without his faith in our team. But he used to give me really tough love. And that was a gift. I would never have grown. He taught me that you don't grow from success. You really only grow from failure.

And he would just give me really direct advice. If you want to be at this table, you've got to grow thicker skin. If you look back all the time, it means you're wasting time. You're not looking forward. Maybe you made a mistake. Just look forward. It seems like simple things, but when it's the CEO and your boss telling you, it was so critical. So when he said he was tormenting me, I think he was just actually giving me the tough love that helped me grow.

- Okay, got it. Mary, you of course were interviewed in the book, as Dena mentioned, and you mention an array of mentors. I don't know, there must have been hundreds of people, or at least archetypes of people that you talked about mentoring you, starting with your mother, who really believed in you.

The thing that struck me about the interview that the Senator and Dina did with you is that you said there was a moment where you had to stop seeing yourself as a mentee and see yourself as a mentor. And I wondered if you could talk more about how one makes that transition.

Well, I think it was a realization for me that I, you know, obviously have been mentored by many people and wouldn't be here where I am without all of their sometimes tough love, constructive feedback, but that you can mentor people above you that are your peers or that, you know, work for you or are lower in the organization. And I think recognizing that and

making sure that you're paying it forward or really giving back for those who helped you with nothing that they expected other than they wanted you to do well. So I think that's kind of my big realization. And now we even do sometimes at General Motors reverse mentoring, where we take people who are new to the company and have them mentor the senior leadership on how we can be better leaders, how we can understand how they think, how they work.

And then, you know, from a technology perspective, because, you know, they've grown up in a digital world that many of the leaders, you know, in my generation, we did not. That's so interesting. So young people in the company get called out and they get empowered as mentors before they have actual leadership, formal leadership jobs. Absolutely. Yes.

That reminds me of something else you said in your interview that I hoped you could elaborate on. You talked about how you learned from your mentors how to be a more empathetic leader, and you said that you cannot run a successful company unless you win over hearts and minds, that you need to get people in the room to want to do and take ownership of whatever the company's actions and values are. Can you talk more about how you've managed to win over hearts and minds and why you think that's so important?

- Well, I think it starts by you have to genuinely care. You have to care what people think. I grew up in manufacturing, so I spent a lot of time on the plant floor. I love the plant floor 'cause it's where our vehicles actually are produced and come together. But understanding the challenges they're going through. I mean, the people, our manufacturing resources are so talented and they work so hard. They know issues 'cause they see it several times a day if there's a problem. And so really valuing that,

Helping them understand why what they do is important and where we're headed as a company, I think, is so important. So that's winning their hearts and minds. Because somebody can come to work every day and just go through the motions. But if they know why, if they care, an end customer is going to have this vehicle. And if they see a problem, they've got to raise their hand. We've got to fix it. We've got to support them. But I think that's caring and respecting and valuing the hard work that they do day in and day out.

Thank you. Senator McCormick, you've had such an interesting career in life. You're a veteran. You have a Ph.D. You've run a hedge fund. Now you're a senator from Pennsylvania. I won't hold that against you being from the great state of Ohio. But I want to...

I want to get to this point. There's this moment in the book where you talk about how none of this might have happened if not for a football coach. So say more about this coach and what the mentorship was for you. Yeah, that was the common theme throughout. You interview these very successful people like Mary that have kind of changed the world.

And almost all of them can point to one or two key people, sometimes more, with whom they would not be there without their help. So the book's not about the famous people, all due respect to Mary. It's about the people that made them who they are, which is the superpower of mentoring. And in my case, there's two I'll mention real quickly. One was a football coach in high school. And I was a sophomore in high school. I was sort of a benchwarmer. And, you know, when the...

When the team would be losing big or winning big, I'd get into the game. And the coach got fired, and a new coach came in, and he watched all the films. And he called me, and he pulled me aside and said, I think you have potential. I think there's a position you could earn. And so you've got to work really hard. So I worked hard, and he made me not only did I win the starting position, he made me the co-captain as a junior. Seems small now. Okay.

It changed everything. I thought about myself completely differently. It helped me get into West Point. I became an all-state football player. But this guy saw something I didn't see. Later in life, at the age of 58, during COVID, I got to 57, I guess, got to become friendly with Henry Kissinger.

who lived nearby. I'd known him for decades, but I didn't really know him. And I called him during COVID and I said, "How you doing?" And he said, "I'm struggling. I can't meet people. I can't hear on the phone." I said, "Have you heard about Zoom?" He said, "What's Zoom?" So I sent up a crew and they put in a big screen and he started to interact with people with Zoom. But that started a great friendship. And he kept saying, "You should run for office."

you should run for office. - Against his wife's wishes. - Nobody knows me, and he was writing this book, which some of you may have read, called Leadership, and it had a chapter on de Gaulle, and he gave me the draft on de Gaulle, and he said, "Read it." And I read it, and I said, "Okay, I've read it, great chapter, what's the point?" He said, "De Gaulle was a nobody, nobody had ever heard of him, and he declared himself the president of France. You can do this." And so I ran, and I lost.

By 900 votes. He was very supportive, but I lost. And he called me a day or two after. He said, you've got to come visit. And I went to his house in Kent, Connecticut. This was at the age of... He was 99 at the time. And the waiters opened... You know, when I got there, they answered the door. They were in bow ties. And Henry and I had lunch, just the two of us. And it was filet mignon, lobster tail, and wine. It was lunch. And I said, Henry, my God, how can you eat like this and not gain weight? And he said...

I wanted to do a very special lunch to thank you for your willingness to do this and willingness to get into the ring. He said, I hope you'll try it again. I don't know if I'll live to see it, but I really hope you'll do this.

That's what mentors do. They see something in you. They help you get through the failure. And so, too, at bookends of my life have made all the difference. So surf and turf even when you lose. Even when you lose. And being there when it's down. The economist Rod Shetty, and this is something that we've talked about here, has noted that there are probably a lot of lost Einsteins. So people who...

would be highly impactful innovators in American society if only they were given the chance, if only the football coach had said, you may not be the best player yet, but I'm going to make you the captain of the varsity team. And I want to know, from your perspective, Senator...

What do we need to do? What does government need to do? What do mentors need to do in this country to make us have less of those lost Einsteins? - Yeah, well, let me think about the government piece, but the whole purpose of the book essentially is to encourage all of you and everybody who reads it to ask three questions. One, who believed in you?

Two, have you said thank you? Because a common theme throughout is, oh, I wish I would have said thank you. They're gone now. They made all the difference. And third, what are you doing to pay it forward? So the key lesson here is you don't need to be a famous person to change the world.

You can change the world by helping young people find their purpose. And so in some societies, in Confucian society, it's a very common cultural norm to bring parents back into the home in their latter years. We'd like to really reinforce a cultural norm of responsibility for all of us to pay it forward, ask ourselves, what are we doing? This is something we can all do it.

It transcends party. It transcends polarization. It builds trust across our society. And it helps build the next generation of leadership. So that's what we hope it'll do. And I know that's ambitious. Is there any role for public policy and government there, though? Well, certainly there's a role in the innovation world, particularly among our ability to recruit people.

some of the greatest minds around the world, not just American citizens who come to our universities, finding a way to make sure that we have a legal immigration system that allows those people to stay and prosper. So I think there's a lot we can do in the innovation ecosystem, in particular to make sure that immigrants that come to our country legally like Dina can be part of the

part of America's future. And the service agenda, too, the public service. I know there was some legislation just encouraging people to take a year and have the government actually invest, whether it's Teach for America or those kinds of programs. That's part of how Condi writes. She's a big chapter in our book. And I'm so proud being I actually read the whole book. But Condi was a huge mentor of mine.

And she tells a story she's never told before, actually. She was at the University of Denver. She'd grown up in segregated Birmingham, Alabama. And she thought she was going to be a classical pianist.

And then she went to a music festival and realized the 12-year-olds were better than her, which is surprising because she's so amazing. And so she said, well, maybe I'll be a city planner. And that's a worthy profession, but we would have never had Condi Rice if there hadn't been one professor who said to her, you're really smart. You should do a PhD in foreign policy. And she said, I don't even know what you're talking about. And that gentleman, Professor Joseph Korbel, happened to also be Madeleine Albright's dad, if you can believe it.

And before he died, he actually said, I had two daughters that were secretaries of state. And it was, I think, honestly, because of Professor Korbel, that later, when I worked for her at the State Department, when she was secretary of state, she insisted on beefing up the White House Fellows Program, the Presidential Scholars, the PMIs.

So I think those fellowships and internships, in fact, our intern, or I should say Condi Rice's White House fellow, was Wes Moore. He had just come back from Afghanistan. He's in the book. And so you see that generational paying it forward that I do think at least programmatically some of those institutions really help.

Right, and using the institution to make that access to mentors more widespread. Mary, I want to ask you about this. We're going to kind of, I want to talk a little bit about the American dream and upward mobility, which all of this really relates to. Like, can you be mentored? Can you be supportive? You wrote about a mentor turning you on to the notion of college, right? Basically telling you that college might be an important thing for you to do, and what

higher education has long been thought of as the vehicle for upward mobility in America. And these days, more than half of Americans say that they actually don't believe that kind of upward mobility, that version of the American dream is accessible to them. I'm curious, you know, you are running a major American company, manufacturing, anchored in the Midwest.

What's your view on whether that upward mobility is still a characteristic of what it is to be an American? Is that part of the American dream still alive from your perspective?

Well, I think it is. And, you know, probably the most influential person in my life, my biggest mentor champion was my mother. And she believed in the American dream. She unfortunately passed away about 20 years ago, but she didn't have the opportunity to go to college. She grew up in the upper, upper peninsula of Minnesota. Yeah, there's my mom. And she, you know, but she believed in the American dream at that point. And I really think in a good...

a significant way she was living it because they came to Detroit. My dad worked for the auto company, General Motors, and they had a good life. They had a good life. But she, for all of her nieces and nephews, like you have to go to college because that was her mindset at that time in order for you to continue to progress, you needed an education. I think today as I look at it, college is definitely a viable path, but we were just talking about in the past, you have to have a skill. You have to have a

something expertise you bring. But I think even more than that, you have to have a learning mindset because technology and everything's changing so quickly. So whether it's people who have gone through college or training we do at General Motors or other training programs that aren't necessarily a four-year degree, I think are all important to achieve the American dream. I think the other thing I have to call out to my mom, though, as a woman, is she just said, work hard and do your best and work hard.

And so when I got to a room, I never went around and said, wait, I'm the only woman in this room. I was like, I worked hard. I deserve to be here. And it wasn't until I was named in this role as the CEO that I realized there were so many people who had the view, I cannot be what I cannot see. And my mother was such a force that she made me believe I deserve to be anywhere if I've earned my way to that table. And I think having that confidence,

instilled at a younger age about the importance of hard work, I think is so important to achieving and getting whatever, how you define the American dream. Is that a message? Is that a recommendation for people to sort of cross the boundaries of gender and identity in mentoring, right? So if someone can tell you that message who maybe doesn't look like you, what would

Has that been part of your experience, that people mentored you or you've mentored others? I think I remember something. Again, I think because I started at General Motors as a college co-op student at 18 years old back in 1980. And, you know, that was a point in time there were very few women in the auto industry. But I had people that took an interest, they saw I was willing to work hard. When people asked me to mentor them, I'm like,

I can give you perspective and feedback, but hard work. One of the biggest pieces I give people, don't focus so much on your next job that you're not actually doing the job you have right now.

So I'm a big believer in hard work differentiates. And I think that can, people who, like Dina, gave me sometimes, I never, you know, the mentor or the tormentor. There was a couple of people in my career too that probably were invested the most and told me the things I didn't want to hear, but I needed to hear more than anything else.

- Really interesting. Dina, I wanna talk to you. Your husband brought up the fact that your family were immigrants from Egypt. And I know this detail about you that you were included in George W. Bush's watercolor portraits of American immigrants who have made a difference in American society. You rose to the top of the private sector and the public sector in your career.

With today's Trump administration policies, I know you served in the first administration, deportations, tourism is down, holding of legal immigrants, students. Can the American dream still include this idea of bringing in the best and the brightest, attracting the best and brightest from around the world? Would that be a thing?

Would your family, would Dina's family today still see America as a place to build their lives? You know, we were actually in Dallas last night where I grew up, and my mom, my dad, my stepmom, my aunts, they all came. We were really honored to be hosted at SMU in the Bush Library, and

It was just this kind of personal full circle moment for me to have gone from growing up there, going to high school at Ursuline Academy there. And, you know, when you actually have these moments, you go back home. And the thing that the story that President Bush writes in the book that I was so humbled to be part of is that my parents, as I told you, didn't think...

Politics was such a good idea, going to Washington government. They thought a safe job was being a lawyer, go to law school. And so they never understood it until one time. And this is what President Bush writes about.

My dad and sister came to the White House. And those of us who have been so honored to work there, sometimes there's events where you see the president, and the president just could tell it was my dad. I was standing there, next to him, my dad's a tall, dark-skinned man. President comes right over to him, he says, "You must be Mr. Habib." And my dad was just in complete shock. And he said, "You've raised a great girl, "and she's an important advisor to me." And nothing from my father, nothing. And I'm like, oh my God, is he not gonna say anything?

And then finally the president says, well, it's nice to meet you and walks off. And I said, what are you doing? You didn't say a word to the president. And my dad started crying, which was very rare for me to have ever seen in my life. And he said, as proud as I am of you,

There is no other country in the world where a man can bring a little girl who doesn't speak the language and then one day watch her serve the president of his adopted country. So, yes, my parents see the exceptional nature of our country. But I will tell you one other story that I think you're getting at, which is probably one of my most important mentorable moments of my life.

traveling with Secretary Rice back to the region of my birth after 9-11. We were in a capital in the Middle East, in one of the big palaces. She was meeting a head of state for the first time in her role. And the head of state looked over at her, and this was 2005 and 2006, rough times. And he looked over at her and he said, Madam Secretary, thanks for coming, but I hope you didn't come here to preach to me about freedom and democracy.

And without missing a beat, she said, Your Highness, how could I come and preach to you about anything when it wasn't all that long ago that my own country counted my ancestors as three-fifths of a man?

And yet today, you are looking at the first female black secretary of state of the United States of America. We are on an imperfect journey, but we will always be stronger than your country. That was kind of when she went, than your country, which doesn't listen to the will of its people. So in that moment, I think it was one of the best ways to articulate that I couldn't be more proud to be black.

an immigrant to this country, I couldn't be more proud to be an American. I do think we're an exceptional nation that is on an imperfect journey. And it took my family actually 16 years to be naturalized, and so you have very proud immigrant parents still. - I have very proud immigrant parents too. My dad has a strange collection of American eagles, that's how patriotic they are.

I do feel I need to ask you because the present moment is challenging that for so many people. And I think about your work at Goldman creating the 10,000 Women Initiative, creating the 1 Million Black Women's Initiative. So targeting groups that have been historically underprivileged in access to capital and resources to start successful enterprises is

to help give them those opportunities and what one might call equity and inclusion focused at diverse populations of entrepreneurs. And today we're seeing an attack or sort of the notion that that doesn't matter. How do you reconcile what's happening in today's political landscape and economic landscape with what you've built your career on? Well, honestly, I think we looked at those programs as great economic development programs.

Yes, of course, when you economically empower female entrepreneurs who don't get as much capital, that's a known data point, and don't get the business education, the access to it. But if you looked at it only as

human rights issue, which of course empowering women is, or a justice issue, you lose the fact that we wanted the men at Goldman Sachs to stand up and say, we found our best investment. 50% of society being productive means we grow GDP around the world. So we always actually approach this from a capital markets perspective, an economic growth perspective. And then you have to look and see, well, where are the gaps? You know, capital, you have to have capital to grow a business. You have to have mentoring. You have to have business advising.

So I think maybe we were fortunate that in the private sector you can use capital and have amazing people serve on the board like Mary did to really guide a program that was meant to be about job creation and economic growth. And purposefully, frankly, we called it smart economics.

We wanted it to be seen as one of the best investments that you could make. And I think you're seeing the private sector do that more, frankly, and then try to partner with government, which isn't always easy. In the case of 10,000 Women, we ended up partnering with the World Bank, and today there's a $1.2 billion grant

credit line facility for female entrepreneurs around the world. So I think we were fortunate that we could approach it from the capital solution perspective that we saw it as because we didn't want to make it, with all due respect, a women's issue. We wanted to make it a smart economic issue. And using the private sector as a lever, again, to create access to broader groups, poor broader groups, to mentors. Definitely.

Okay, so I want to take the last little segment here and ask you all briefly to reflect on something because my colleague, Sally Jenkins, was just talking about moments of failure and how moments of failure have defined the world's best and greatest athletes' careers.

I think we've all had them, but I'm wondering if you would each take a moment to reflect on a moment of failure that you think has helped define your success. It looks like you might have one, Senator. Yeah, I have plenty. It's which one to pick from. But the highest profile, I mean, I obviously lost the Senate race, which was a big failure, but I had worked for President Bush, and my last job was the Undersecretary of Treasury, and I went to Bridgewater, which is a big investment firm, and...

And within 18 months or so, the founder, Ray Dalio, asked me to become the co-CEO, which was a big deal. And one of his colleagues for 20 years was the other co. And 18 months later, he fired me. And this was on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. And it was a very public failure. And I actually stayed at the firm. I was sadly going through a divorce at the time. We had four little girls. But I also took a lesser job.

And I thought I would eventually transition out, and I stuck with it. And I guess three, four years later, I became CEO again.

for the next six or seven years. And that fire, being fired, was really an incredible, I didn't agree at the time, I still don't agree in some ways, but the lessons I learned about equanimity, about leadership, about the thing that was going wrong, which is I wasn't driving change quickly enough, the ability to take conflicting opinions, the ability to have empathy for people who were struggling and failing. And the value of failure is the thing that happens often before success.

That is something that as painful as it was, I wouldn't trade. Thank you. Barry, do you have anything? Yeah. A couple of positions before being named CEO, I was running HR at General Motors and it was right after we'd gone through a very public bankruptcy and restructuring. We were really trying to change things, look at all our programs and really use it as a chance to reboot and build the company we wanted to have.

And so one of the things I did, I had HR, so I was looking at all our benefits, and I realized we provided a lot of vacation time. And one thing that we did is we had these four days that an employee could opt to buy.

And I looked, and, you know, we were at the top from an overall vacation. I'm like, we can just get rid of this. And so I got rid of it. And my team was telling me, you know, Mary, I don't think this is a good idea. And I'm like, okay, I was relatively new. I hadn't grown up in HR. And I'm like, okay, this is just, you know, kind of the department pushing back on me. And so I went ahead and did it.

And I got killed, I mean, on the internal post. But what I realized is a lot of people said, you know what, I buy those days. And literally, they were paying for these extra four days. They said, I will use them when I have to go to a doctor's appointment for those two hours, or I want to leave two hours early to go to my child's sporting event, or I need to take my elderly parent to the doctors. And having these days makes me feel okay about going and doing that. And my big learning was I didn't listen.

I just assumed, here's what the benchmark says, here's what the data says, we'll be fine. I didn't listen to how important this was to our employees and something that they did so they could work harder and really feel like they were doing the right thing for the company. I reinstated it because like I said, I got killed on our internal media. I think I didn't get fired, but they wanted me fired. But I learned the importance of listening and really understanding people

and listening to understand as opposed to just thinking you have all the answers because you looked at some data. - Thanks so much, Dina. - Okay, I have a few to pick from too. I think for me, because I had the responsibility of leading teams at a young age, that's just not something that there's a manual for. So at 29, I was on the senior staff of the White House. At a very young age, I was the senior person at Goldman. And I think the thing that I realized over the years

is maybe the most important legacy of a leader is where are all the people that worked for you? How did you invest in those teams? Whether they worked with you and for you and they grew and they found their potential and their purpose or where they were, you know, in life after they worked for you. And I was so proud that, you know, today even at BDT and MSD Partners where I work, you know, I think about that every day because I think where does this person want to end up?

And I didn't have that understanding when I was a young manager and a leader. And there's a painful lesson when I was 29 and running presidential personnel and having to deal with lots of characters working for President Bush that I completely messed something up, like really bad. I got the wrong name of a person.

for an appointment. And I mean, the president absolutely chewed me out. And I just learned at that moment that had I done a better job giving the team a chance to come and brief them, they knew the ins and outs. And that was, it was just too young to know. And fast forward, when I had the honor of serving in the National Security Council, working on the foundations that led to the Abraham Accords, I never went to a meeting without the entire team that was working on it.

it because A, it gave them the opportunity to have exposure to President Trump and to learn and to understand what he was focused on. But frankly, it made me much better because they had every single detail that I couldn't possibly have had. And so, you know, you get publicly embarrassed a couple of times in these senior jobs and you realize you're only as good as the very best people that you've invested in that work for you. And that's been probably the greatest joy of my life too.

Thank you all so much. What a fascinating conversation full of really important insights about how to be a good mentor and in essence, a good human and good leader in these times. Dina Powell McCormick, Senator David McCormick, Mary Barra, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening. For more conversations like these, be sure to follow our Washington Post Live podcast page on Spotify and stay tuned every Friday for our weekly episodes. I'm Kwari Alin signing off for Washington Post Live.

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