Two WNBA sisters and one woman entrepreneur making waves in their industries through storytelling
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You're listening to a podcast from Washington Post Live, bringing the newsroom to you live. Welcome. I'm Sally Jenkins, sports columnist for the Washington Post. These are two women that you're going to be hearing from this afternoon. You're going to find them probably two of the more extraordinary people in the illustrious constellation of people you've heard from today. I want to, I'm thrilled to introduce Nneka and Sinead Ogumike because I

they personify for me something that we're gonna talk about today, which is that the women's sports movement in this country is not just the women's sports movement. It is the secret history of the women's movement.

It is power is not muscle, power is movement. It's agility, it's elevation. You guys personify that for me in what you've done for the women's game. I think that the two of you have been essential figures in some of the explosive numbers that we're seeing commercially, which is where we're gonna start in our discussion. So let's start with you, Shanae. We've got, here's some of the numbers.

We're talking about a seminal year for women's sports across the board. Simone Biles and Katie Ledecky, Caitlin Clark, New York Liberty win their first WNBA championship, record-breaking audiences. The problem up to this point has been we've seen surges before.

it's never sustained. What is different now? And do you think there's going to be a sustaining of this level and this explosion? And I'll go to you first and then to Nneka. Sure. Hello. Good afternoon. So excited to be here with my sister. We don't do this often, so I feel really lucky. Our family's here as well, so it's really special for us. Hey, dad. Hey, uncle. We always have to do it. To answer your question, first of all, it's a lot...

to storytelling, and you play such a huge role in that. Because we stand on the shoulders of those who come before us. A lot of people who love basketball, a lot of women who play basketball. We were not playing for the paychecks for a very long time. Not until recently, when we're talking about numbers. We played for legacy and love of the game, and now the tide has changed. And when we think about the record numbers that women's sports, not even just basketball, is experiencing, I think what it reminds me of is men lie, women sort of lie, but numbers don't.

And the sustainability-- the sustainability to me is everything when it comes to storytelling. I think we've always had a pipeline of talent in women's basketball and in women's sports. But now having the visibility for those stories to be learned, appreciated, and celebrated to me has been the game changer. It's taken investment from businesses. It's taken changing the college landscape with NIL. It's taken the elevation and the autonomy of players

that can sort of control their own brands. It was the perfect Storm. Oh yeah, and speaking of Storm, I should leave it to the Storm member here. - Seattle Storm. - Sinead's always gonna give a pun. - Yeah.

But hello everyone. It's such an honor to be here, especially with sharing the stage with you. Oddly enough, I was just saying that Chanae and I do panels, but rarely do they ask us to do them together. Together, I know. Which I think is kind of strange, but we were so happy to be able to share the stage. And we were speaking backstage about your relationship with Tara, your relationship with Pat Summitt, and I think that it's incredibly important. I think I'm speaking a little bit more, because I'm still playing, I'm speaking a little bit more from the player's perspective, and I think...

It takes people like you to tell the stories for us to also realize, recognize, remind ourselves of our worth. And so, like Chanae said, we've done this for the love of the game. Long time. For a very long time. I mean, Pat Summitt used to, like, there wasn't a WNBA when I first was working with Pat Summitt on books and stories. She and Tara Vanderveer, your coach at Stanford, they were coaching to create professional women, were they not? Yeah.

Not professional athletes. Professional women. Exactly right. And I think that that is something that kind of starts from the inception of women who actually do want to be involved in sport. People look at us and they say, okay, they're professional athletes, but we're not the only ones that are a part of that sports club. A lot of women who are leaders in our society participated in sports in some way. And when we enter sports,

It's usually because they want us to build character. They don't ever present it as though it could be a viable career. And so we're entering sports for the love of the game. We're entering sports to diversify our experiences and use those characteristics that we build through sport, team or individual, to then now be leading women in society.

Now, we're still doing that, but people are paying us some money. You know? And we have the option to be able to say that this is a decision that we want to follow for the entirety of our career. And that is a very new development. I think a lot of people are like, will it last? I...

absolutely firmly, 100,000% believe that this is the moment that will last. And it's because the pipeline is real. A lot of people came through the mainstream, not the real ones here, you know what I'm saying? The mainstream came through maybe the last two or three years from what we witnessed at Iowa and LSU, Kaitlyn Clark.

Angel Reese, the sensational rookie class, right? But the beauty of it, and this is why I tell people not to sleep on it, there's a pipeline of success. Not only the most dominant players like one I'm sitting next to in Asia Wilson, but also the people that are coming, right? Juju Watkins, you think about Paige Beckers. There is the next superstar each year. And the difference between the men's and the women's game, and which is why I think women do a little bit better,

-A lot. -Doing a lot better... ...is because we can't go pro until you're three years removed from high school, which means typically you're a junior in college, and we're smart enough to realize we should stay that extra year and get our degree. And now people want to stay 50-11 years because they're enjoying their time in college, which I wish I did, 'cause I would've got my double degrees. We're Nigerians, right? But...

But if you think about it, that creates a huge opportunity for storytelling. So whereas on the men's side, you can be one and done, as women, you can build your base. You can build your army. You can build a support system that will follow you. And for the first time in a long time, I think it was about 10 years ago, Maya Moore wrote this article with the Players' Tribune about invisibility. Well, the visibility has completely shifted. And now your story is carried from college and now to the pros and the pipeline of talent.

that has always been there is now being seen, and I think it will absolutely be sustainable. So last year, Deloitte did a survey of professional women who made six figures and up, C-suite people, managers, 69% reported having a background in sports, right? So that's what I mean when I say that I think in some ways the women's sports movement has been the women's movement. Why do you think that male deciders have

there's a physical competency that you almost have to establish to prove you're not an emotional choker, right? Like how much do you think, do you guys still encounter that in the men that you see both in broadcasting and in negotiating and in business? - Well, I mean, I have a certain type of purview and I think maybe it's kind of been honed as being the president of the PA. You know, I really

If you're an obstacle, you're an obstacle, whether you're a man or a woman. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's kind of how I see it. Now, of course, you know, we were raised in a way where, you know, this what I'm doing now was not something that was supposed to be seen as sustainable. So over time, there is a callous that you kind of are used to that allows you to understand that, OK, this is probably going to happen. Someone's going to say this.

I'm gonna experience this type of barrier, but what do I do? We just keep going. We create the opportunities that we are now able to kind of use in our own careers right now, and that opportunity is creating the sustainability through the pipeline that Chanae is talking about. And I really loved that you used the word movement because our movement,

the moment has finally met our movement, you know? And that's something that we experienced very heavily in 2020, not just because of there being a pandemic and there being so much about what we were experiencing in the streets as black and people of color, but also because we had negotiated a CBA that had prepared us almost unknowingly for that type of moment. Understanding what obstacles that we had just negotiated through

that made us prepare for whatever the world was gonna throw at us. And so, you know, at the end of the day, I always like to let everyone know that feminism is not exclusive to women.

That's why we have two of our closest family members here. My uncle and my dad. We are the way we are because these are men that have empowered us to be the way that we can be and that have now allowed us to empower other women and each other for us to make things better than when we came.

I mean, of necessity, every promotion or raise I ever got in this business was from a man. It was a man's world. It was a man's business, sports writing, right? And so I think that the WNBA had to have a David Stern initially to promote it, right? He was the commissioner of the WNBA. So alliance really is critical, isn't it? It is. And it's really funny because Nneka mentions that. And then we realized that growing up in Cypress, Texas, where we feel like we can take on the world,

we were in a little bit of a bubble, because we go outside, and particularly Nneka spoke through the lens of being the president of a players association. I'll speak through the lens of being a member of the media now. I realize, especially with this boom of women's basketball, with rapid growth comes growing pains.

Not everyone has experienced the equality that we experience in our households. And so now how do we fight for advocating what the game truly is with people who are just now trying to discover what it truly can be? And I realize that in real time. I don't know if you guys saw those clips that were happening on ESPN where we were talking to some of our colleagues that maybe did not understand that women can be fierce, women can be feminine, women can be competitive, women are physical athletes, women are the best in class.

and trying to get that learning curve. Like I said, that rapid growth created growing pains where people had to learn and understand and appreciate how we compete. There are so many preconceived notions on how women should enter spaces and have these ideas that sort of dictate our success. Finally, I think, like Nneka said, in 2020, we sort of liberated ourselves from the shackles of public perception. And guess what? That was the best thing that happened to us because we stood firmly together. I always tell people in the... Oh, my gosh, am I going to do this? I always say it.

Okay, so I always say in the WNBA, it's like, ♪ I'm every woman ♪ Like, you can find every kind-- I know, she's a singer of our family, okay, y'all? I should've made her do it. - That is not where we're going here. Get to your point. - My point is,

In the WNBA, you can find every kind of woman with every different thought. But at the end of the day, we realize that we're stronger together. Even though we are competitive on the court, we are more importantly collaborative when people see us as a unit. As strong as Nneka is, as strong as I am, as strong as Asia Wilson is or Caitlin Clark is, we realize that nobody will respect us unless we stand together on what we believe, even knowing that maybe we do not agree.

And I think that changed our mindset and that changed everything in 2020. And now it's gonna happen again in 2025 as they negotiate a new CBA. I'm in on it. I'm out the league.

- Nneka, so many people watched the explosion of the WNBA this season, this past season, but even people inside the league have said that they felt like the league wasn't entirely prepared to meet the moment and take advantage, right? Commercially. So why do you think that was number one? And number two, what has to happen differently going forward in order to take advantage and make sure that this wave doesn't just break and then fizzle?

I mean, working my way back with that question, I think what we see now, especially if anyone's been paying attention in WNBA news, I mean, the vacancies when it comes to coaches and GMs is what is happening to make sure that people are up and ready for what's going on, for this explosion. Now, I wouldn't necessarily say that, I mean, no, I guess I will say, like, there was a level of unpreparedness, you know? I think that we've all, as players, we have always felt that

what everyone is seeing right now. And we've always known what our league could be. But as Chanae said, you know, with growth comes growing pains. And I think that we had a growth spurt this year. And people had, I mean, like some teams are wearing high waters.

So, like, I feel like they had to quickly reassess. And doing that while the season is happening can be very difficult. But I spoke on this before. Like, you know, the league has to match the players' fly. I think that it's incredibly important to recognize over the years, time and time again, people have seen the league. People have been like, oh, you need to do this. You need to wear booty shorts. You need to lower the rim. Like, all these different types of things. And I'm like, well...

You guys aren't asking the NBA to change the game. You guys are asking us to change the fundamentals of what creates a league. Why would we have to do that in the WNBA? Why is it always on us to fix what's going on? And I think right now, finally, perhaps the business is matching our fly. You see these blockbuster names in Angel, in Caitlyn, in Asia, in Stewie, in Jonquil Jones.

And this, that has never changed. I've just played my 13th season. That has never changed. I've played against some of the greatest athletes of our time. And I really feel that now people are finally recognizing it in whatever, whatever is their gateway. I am totally up for however, even if you just happen to buy a jersey that ended up being a WNBA jersey, you're like, okay, I guess this is my team now. You know, like, I just feel like, however,

However you enter it, be open to it, be curious, don't be critical, and be a part of this history and this legacy. And I think that we have people that are inside the league and in these teams that are realizing that they have to match what these players have been providing on the court. You know, in college basketball, there were a handful of not just great coaches, but great marketers who built

cultural pockets and you guys were in one of them with Stanford and Tara Vanderveer, Condoleezza Rice, you know, would come to your games. Like the army of powerful women at courtside at a Stanford, like Tara Vanderveer created a culture for powerful women in the Stanford basketball arena, didn't she? Oh my God. Yeah. I have a personal, I guess, anecdote about that. Well, first of all, Condoleezza Rice was her academic advisor. So I don't know if that's what you were going to say. Yeah.

I don't know if that's what you were gonna say. -Absolutely. -Okay, my bad. -So... -Okay. What's really cool is, like Nneka said, as women, when we enter sports, for a long time, we realized it could not be the end-all, be-all. And so we were surrounded by excellent women. And I'm not just talking about Tara Vandiver, but talking about Pat Summitt, Muffet McGraw, Kim Mulkey, Gino Ariema.

ally, right? People that have built these amazing programs that wanted to elevate the game. But I think the difference that we have seen now to then was that when it came to women's basketball, the coaches were the stars. Now the stars are the players. But I do think all of the work that the coaches have done have allowed us as professionals to meet the moment and advocate and become leaders and expand. And so my personal experience with this, and this is just like, we are nerds.

Okay, so we grew up in a nerdy household. Again, I say we're Nigerian. You guys know doctor, lawyer, engineer. But we were very... So we're failures. Yeah, we're totally... Yeah, we have a little sister that was here in D.C., like, pursuing a Ph.D. We have another little sister that just graduated from medical school. She's a doctor, though, so she caught us on camera. Yeah, so we got a wife.

We're straight. But it's funny because we fell into basketball and we fell in love with it and it completely transformed our lives. And it came from a decision from our parents to see some value in playing sports. It was just simple as that because that is not what the patriarchal systems back home in Nigeria or the continent of Africa sort of pushed for at the time. And we're very grateful for those types of things. But we were nerds first and foremost. And so I'll never forget when Kim Mulkey came to our house

And finally told our parents, like, hey, did you know your daughters can get full ride scholarships? They had no clue. They're like, oh my gosh, eyes are huge. And that's what changed the game for us, where we realized, OK, we can take our education to another level. My recruiting visit was like, typically when you get recruited as an athlete, people go like Drake's at Kentucky, all these celebrities out there. At my official visit when NECA was at Stanford was Chief Justice John Roberts, John Elway, and former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. I was in heaven.

So fast forward, we had a huge win against UConn my freshman year. And former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice came into the locker room. And she remembered from when I was a junior in high school and turned around after she left and congratulated us. Hey, you told me you're interested in public policy and politics. Why don't you come meet me? I was like, oh, my God. And so I ran into her office. But long story short, she became a mentor and she taught me a very, very important lesson that.

At the time, we all knew how hard it was to be great as a women's basketball player. And then as women, we also have imposter syndrome because we enter spaces where we're demanded to be great in everything else, whether it's mother, sister, student. And so I was having a little bit of a struggle. And she said, Chanae, as much as you work to be great on the court, you can be great in the classroom. And then, I mean, the same thing my parents said, but I didn't really listen, right?

And it changed the game for me. And so today as I sit as a member of the media, I realize while I was playing and becoming the first professional athlete to do both, I could be great as an athlete and I could be great at something else. And I think that's something that is innate within women. That's something innate within sports. That is like the secret DNA and sauce that we are empowered with

So that when this movement and moment happens, we know not to just care about ourselves, but for others around it. And that's why I don't think you can find one athlete that just cares about themselves in this sport. They care about elevating. And it starts with, to me, sisterhood with my sister, but also the women that have really been family members for us.

Let's talk a bit more about your family. Let's talk about your upbringing together and the ethic inside that family and the fact that you guys ended up playing basketball together at Stanford. Talk about that journey together a little bit. - I mean, I was most certainly the guinea pig when it came to anything that we were delving into, but you know, we were, wow. Wow, and he's here. - That's our uncle. - Yeah, he's here, oh my gosh.

But so, you know Nigerian culture is built on the foundation of family, you know, the system is family and it's not necessarily just And and family is it's really like the bedrock of what the culture is built on and hard work and

integrity, and opportunity that can be yielded from those types of characteristics. Now, like Chanae said, there are patriarchal systems that exist heavily in the culture, but we are, even if we weren't, we are four kids, four daughters,

And so that was actually never our experience. Our parents raised us to be good people. They raised us to be hardworking people. And I came first. And so there's also a lot of weight on age and rank. And for me, being the oldest, I'm the oldest granddaughter and also the oldest daughter in my family.

With that comes a lot of responsibility, a lot of expectation, but then also kind of paving the way. As most older siblings do have the responsibility to do. But, you know, it was as if, like, I had to be the best and then she had to be...

the best, better than best, and then so on down the line. And I think that's kind of just been our perspective moving forward, sprinkling in, of course, a lot of our nature. We have different approaches, as you can probably tell by us being on the stage today. But always falling back on that foundation of family and working hard and understanding that your hard work will yield reward, maybe not immediately,

but down the line and quite possibly that reward may not be as obvious as you think. It may just be a streamline of some type of character that allows you to be ready for the opportunity that is next that you may not have any vision to see. Through that,

Our parents wanted us to be very well-rounded, and we were already involved in the community. We were very much-- education was certainly key. There was no expectation of anything less than PhD. Correct. Yeah. Wow. I'm exaggerating. Just a mistake.

- Do you have advanced degrees? Let me just interrupt. - No, no, no, we don't have advanced degrees. - Just your sister. - We gonna get honoraries? - I guess now we gotta get 'em. - Honorary, honorary. - But started playing basketball, kind of fell into it just as a way to like, of course, keep kids active. And then I just, I love the challenge. One thing about me is that I really love, I like it when I'm not good at something and I like trying to be better at it. - I'm the opposite.

-Chenet waited two years before she jumped into basketball. -Let me tell y'all this story really quick, because I think it highlights a unique difference that sort of illuminated our approach for life. So, Nneka, she's fearless, right? She's a guinea pig. She loves trying new things. Me, I only like to do the things I'm good at. That's why I don't play video games. That's why I don't go bowling, 'cause I want to dominate you before I go out there, right? So, when we started playing basketball, our parents remember our first basketball practice ever. Nneka and I went there. We were wearing jean shorts, halter tops, glasses, glasses holder, looking like nerds, wearing Keds,

was wearing Adidas, Nike, and doing the thing. Nneka went out there, and I will never forget her first shot did not just go over the backboard. It went over the scoreboard, which was on top of the backboard. And I was so embarrassed, and I was so scared. So during that practice, when our parents dropped us off for two hours, I went to the bathroom, and I hid there the whole time.

I know, right? Sad, but it's all right. I'm fine. She went out there and she played. She was the worst player, so much so that my dad reminds us that at her games, he used to like, let's just say politely bribe, like, NECA, every rebound you get, you get a dollar for your sisters. And so we're like, yes!

"Six rebounds are going to the vending machine. Skittles, candy, yeah!" So there were little incentives, but after a couple games, we didn't really need those. Nneka just was so competitive, but most importantly, after every practice those first two years that she was playing, she came home and taught us everything that she knew. So we'd be dribbling on the driveway. We had a long driveway, and she's like, "Chenay, this is how you do a crossover. This is how you shoot." She used to go one-on-three, but it was never those one-on-one crazy backyard battles that everyone else has had.

And from there, I realized the power of being collaborative and not competitive. Everything, you know, I say anything you can do, I can do, you know, too. No, she wants that same thing for me. And she wants that same thing. She wants us to sort of live a better life than she experienced, but also enjoy all the great things. That's why when she was number one drafted, she was like, Sinead, I'm going to give you the playbook. I'm going to give you all the scouting reports on all the teams so you can be great as well. Except her own. No, no, no. Not like that. Not like that.

- I definitely helped her with that though, 'cause you needed help. - And Tamika still crossed me over and I fell on the ground. She missed the shot, thank you, Lori. But I guess my point is that was our dynamic. Sisterhood is at the core of everything that we experience. Culture is at the core of everything that we know and our identity. And I think from her not being competitive with me but collaboratively,

Nneka said something, I don't know if it went over people's head, but my mom says it succinctly, "Tiny drops of water make a mighty ocean." And the tiny drops that she has put and invested in me and everyone around her has completely changed the tides for so many people. And I think that's the power of showing up each and every day. - And the question was about our whole family.

But it's fine. It's all good. I'm going to, we're going to have to wrap it up here in the final minute, but let me, I'm going to present a simple statement. Winning for women is a radical act. True or false? I guess it depends on who you're talking to. Yeah. The winner's circle though for women is still a space that takes a certain amount of subversive action to enter. It absolutely does. I mean, I guess this is, I'll just say this. And the reason why I answered that way was that

We do live in a world where winning for women is a radical act. A lot of times people try to label me as an activist and I don't reject it, but it's not something that I identify with because what we do every day is what everyone should be doing. Like Chanae said, the foundation of sisterhood, the foundation of community,

What you have is something that I want to help with, something that I want to support and it should be vice versa. So let's not make it radical. Let's make it just reality. And I'll lastly say this too.

I think oftentimes we think that winning means you have to be a WNBA MVP or president of a players association. No, winning are the little things. And to me, sometimes your existence is the resistance. Showing up in a space that is not designed or built for you, but showing up and being authentically yourself, that's something that we have done in the W. That's something that everyone can do in every walk of life. That is winning. It may not be super radical, but you are changing hearts and minds, and that's something that we're committed to.

Thank you. Thank you. Did I tell you or did I tell you? Thank you so much. And now we're going to our next guest. We have. Yeah. Great. Yes. Yes. Thank you. The following segment was produced and paid for by a Washington Post Live event sponsor.

The Washington Post newsroom was not involved in the production of this content. Good morning. Good morning, everyone. I'm Kathleen Koch. I'm a longtime Washington correspondent and bestselling author. And I'm really excited to be with you all here this morning to discuss the current state of play for women's entrepreneurship around the world with Asahi Pompei. And Asahi is the global head of corporate engagement at Goldman Sachs.

Now, at Goldman Sachs, she handles quite a lot. She leads their community development agenda, investing and lending over $3.5 billion annually across the United States. It goes to things like affordable housing and workforce development.

as well as small business lending. Then globally, Asahi manages a suite of initiatives driving economic growth and opportunity. So welcome, Asahi. - Kathleen, it's wonderful to be with you. Good morning, everyone. It's great to be here.

Well, let's dive right in. You lead Goldman Sachs Investments in entrepreneurs, both men and women, but with programs like 10,000 Women, 1 Million Black Women, and 10,000 Small Businesses. So talk to us about some of the trends that you're seeing, and what barriers are women entrepreneurs still facing that we're not talking about enough? Sure.

I want to highlight a couple of barriers and trends, but let me say first and foremost that my North Star is working with entrepreneurs around the world to help them grow their business, create jobs, and contribute to the economy. And as you mentioned, through the programs that we have, we've worked with nearly 50

300,000 entrepreneurs around the world, of which nearly 90% of them are women, providing education, access to capital, and network. And that's been a sustained 15-year commitment. So you asked about trends. Here's one that I'm particularly excited about.

the wealth wave that's coming. Women controlling more of the purse strings. So, McKinsey estimates that by the year 2030, 60% of the world's assets will be controlled by women. What's behind that? Couple of things. One is baby boomers and the transfer of wealth that's occurring.

The second one is more women entering the workforce, but not only that, having higher wage jobs when they enter the workforce. And the third one is entrepreneurship. The vision of the guy in the garage with the hoodie, replace that with a woman. Women are starting businesses at a faster clip than it's ever been seen before. And look, women are choosing entrepreneurship for a number of reasons. They're choosing it for freedom.

They're choosing it for flexibility. They're choosing it for wealth creation. And the reason that all of that matters is because we see that more money in the hands of women means more money invested in women. So I'm excited to see sort of a shift in allocation and lending on the back of that.

So those are the trends. What are the barriers? All right. The first one will not surprise anyone in this audience. Actually, neither of the two I'm going to mention will surprise anyone. One is childcare. We recently surveyed through our 10,000 Small Businesses Program business owners across the country. And what they say is that 66% of them say if they're able to provide a childcare benefit

they're able to recruit and retain employees more. 56% of them say childcare challenges are leading them to be able to not operate or grow their business at the pace that they would like to. Not a surprise to us that childcare is an important area of focus and frankly one of the barriers faced. The second one is capital.

right? That trillion dollar wealth gap, that's the title of our discussion today, persists. Everybody in this audience knows that 2% number, right? Only 2% of venture capital goes to women. Now, Kathleen, I'd love to say that we've seen that number evolve over time. Absolutely not. That number is changing at a glacial pace, and that's particularly concerning. But

But I'm bullish because of the wealth wave that we will see coming over the next decade. Well, let's stay on the topic of the capital barrier. Let's unpack that a little bit. What's behind that lack of financing for women entrepreneurs? Do they not present themselves with that same level of confidence and boldness that men do? What is it? Or is it sexism?

You know, I've often wondered about this, namely that lack of capital to women, is it a market signal or is it a market problem? And I've come to firmly believe it's a market problem. Here's the backdrop. Women pay higher interest rates on average. Two, they're approved for lower credit amounts.

Thirdly, they're asked to provide more collateral for the same loan than a comparable male would be asked to provide for the same loan. - And you see this across the board globally? - See this across the board globally. Now, with that backdrop, women still, 97 out of 100 women, and this is proven out in our 10,000 women population, pay back their loan. 97 out of 100 pay back their loan, and they pay back their loans early. - How does that compare to men?

I'm curious, not to put you on the spot. No, no, no. What we're seeing that men, it's around 93, 94%. So there's a measurable difference between women paying back and men paying back their loans. So this makes no sense that they have to pay a higher interest rate. They get less money. They get less money, but still they're paying back early. And women are considered risky, right? So the math is just not mapping, right? Something's going on there.

All right, we've got to fix this. We've got to fix this. Are you ready to move on to the fixes? No, I'm ready to tell you what's behind it because that was your project. So a couple of things. One is people will invest in who they know and what they know.

So that network deficit that women have is part of the reason behind the number, the issue behind the number. The second one is the compounding effect of micro-barriers. So when you're seeing slightly higher insurance rate that a woman has to pay, slightly less good income,

supplier terms, you add all that together and over time that compounds and she is feeling that in the bottom line of her business. And the last one I'd say, which I've said time and time again, it's that performance potential axis.

Men are generally judged on their potential and they get money and they're lent money based on their potential. Women, it's their performance. Have you done this exact thing? And now I can trust you because you've done this exact thing. I have to see you perform. We're not being judged on our potential. So that that.

sort of constellation of three things, I think are some of what we're really seeing happening behind the scenes. - Women constantly having to prove themselves. All right, solutions. So how do we fix this? I know Goldman Sachs is doing a lot, 'cause we've gotta close this gap, right? And address that blind spot.

Absolutely. And so I'd say, you know, four things specifically. One is we need gender disaggregated data, right? We don't need banks to sort of mush together. We lent to X number of small businesses. Well, did you lend to female businesses? What's your rate of declining women businesses? What's your rate of the amount that they asked for?

versus how much you actually lent to them, and the collateral terms that you requested on the back of that. So we want gender disaggregated data. The second thing that we want is we want more public-private partnerships. Certainly Goldman Sachs has worked with the city of New York on a small business, the largest small business facility ever, but lots of other institutions have engaged in public-private partnerships. We know that those work.

The third thing I would note is procurement, targeted procurement programs that are focused on women business owners. We know those work, but we need to clinically examine them and figure out the components that can be improved because over time, I think that's an area that's increasing focus. And the last one I'd say is put more women in seats where they're making decisions on investments because we know when that happens,

women get the capital that they need. And frankly, the economy grows, more jobs are created over time. - So you advise, you mentor women entrepreneurs all over the world. What would you say is the one piece of advice, or maybe there are several, that you just keep giving again and again? - Okay, I'm gonna be controversial. - Okay, go for it. - Okay, spend less time on the deck and more time building the relationship.

We just work on that. - We work, we work, we work. - And so you wanna be able to sort of, revenue is your best fundraising tool, right? Here's what I've been able to do. You wanna walk in that room and not say, believe in me that I can do it. You wanna say, I've proven I can do it. I've generated revenue in these ways. And so be part of my wealth creation journey and growth story. I'm offering you that opportunity.

The next part of it, I'd say, and I'd probably close here, is women are often told, think big. And I get the concept. I agree in part. But I challenge us to think small. What I mean by that is launch with 60%.

Lean into progress over perfection when you're launching it. Iterate, build a base, start to generate the revenue, have a clear, focused story, and then you can get big and grow from there versus starting with the huge idea that the plane just gets too heavy to fly.

You're a woman, you're a mother, you travel all around the world doing this work, helping women entrepreneurs. What is the most rewarding thing about that for you?

I'll probably say a couple of things. One is the stories and the people that you meet. I was just in India for 10 days a couple of weeks ago, and I was in London. I'll be in South Africa in March. One, it's the people that you meet, but it's also that you see the impact when one woman is able to invest in her business,

She will contribute to healthcare in that community. She will contribute to education in that community. She will mentor upwards of nine individuals, boys, girls, men, women in that community. So I like to say the blast radius of investing in a woman entrepreneur is just simply incredible and it's proven in the data.

So you must wake up every morning thrilled to do what you do. I love what I do, as you could probably tell. Yes, indeed I do. Final thoughts for the audience on anything that we haven't touched on? We may have some investors in the audience. And so I'm excited about this wealth wave thing.

And I'm excited about the opportunity that investors have to invest in phenomenal women businesses because they're out there. The pipeline is there. And it's a matter of sort of being a market maker and matching it. And I think it's exciting times. By 2030, we will control over 60% women will of the world's assets. So our time is coming, ladies. And we are out of time. Please join me in thanking my fabulous guest, Asahi Pompei. Thank you.

Asahi is Global Head of Corporate Engagement at Goldman Sachs. Thank you for the great conversation. Thank you for all you do to help women entrepreneurs. And please stay put, my friends, at The Washington Post. They'll be right back. And now, back to Washington Post Live. Hello. Hello. Good to see you all again. Thanks for sticking around for the finale. We're going to have some fun.

As a reminder, I'm Krista Thompson, a managing editor here at the Washington Post, and I'm joined today by Fawn Weaver, the founder and CEO of Uncle Nearest Premium Whiskey. Welcome, Fawn. Thank you for having me. Yes. Before we dig in, you all just saw the video, but I want to share a few fascinating facts about your company. Since your company's launch in 2017, you have seen over 3,000% growth in sales, and

The brand has seven varieties of whiskey. And this past May, the brand officially became the fastest growing whiskey of all time. Congratulations. Fawn, we're here to talk to you today, not just about your story and your career in the brand, but the story that you unearthed, which also gave rise to Uncle Nearest.

In the past you have said it like this, Nearest Green was the best whiskey maker the world has never known. You learned who Nathan Nearest Green was in 2016 after reading an article. He was a forgotten figure but he made an indelible impact.

Briefly tell us who he was and why his story resonated so deeply with you. Yeah, so Nears Green is what we now or who we now know to be the first known African-American master distiller. The reason why I say first known is because I'm hopeful that some folks will actually go back into their records

and the photos of the random black person figure out who that was. And so in the years and the decades ahead, this may change, but from what we know now, he was the first known African American master distiller. He is the teacher of a young Jack Daniel. He was the first master distiller for Jack Daniel Distillery, and he is still the only known master distiller for Jack Daniel Distillery number seven.

So let's take a look at this photo. The man we see here next to Jack Daniels is not, in fact, near a screen. That's his son, George. Talk about this photo a little bit and what it signified for you. Absolutely. Well, there's a...

the way that I start off Love and Whiskey is actually with the full photo because the New York Times and everyone who has used this photo has cropped the photo just like it is at the front of this book or the cover of the book.

However, when you open it up and you look at the actual photo, this is the only known photograph that Jack Daniel ever took with anybody else. And he seeded the entire, the center position of the entire photo to the African American man.

And so you are the most famous whiskey maker of all time, then and now. You're taking the one photo you've ever taken with people. And there's a couple things to notice here. Number one, although it looks like he's off-centered because they've put the two together, George is the center of this photograph. That's the first part. The second part is, is everyone else is seated. Jack is standing.

Jack never grew to be more than 5'2", and in this photo, his right leg has been amputated. So what he is doing is, is he's leaning into the person he trusted the most. That's a big deal. This photo was taken in 1904. So one of the things that America has a really bad tendency of doing is, is we do have some horrible stories in our history, but we do a really bad job of celebrating the great ones.

And this story is such a beautiful story of two Americans that in a time that was unlikely, 19th century, in a place that was unlikely, Lynchburg, Tennessee, found a place of respect, love, honor, and equality during a time when America did not even know what equality meant.

And instead of celebrating that, people saw this photo and instinctively decided around the Internet with no proof whatsoever that Jack Daniel was a slave owner. He stole the recipe. He hid the slave. I mean, that story was around the world. I was in Singapore when it came out.

It was around the world. It was one of the top 10 most read stories of that year. And the baffling part to me was I looked at the photo and said, let me get this straight. So this is taken, I thought 19th century, but now we know circa 1904. And you want to hide a black man by putting him at the center of your photograph. How does that work?

It made no sense. But it just goes to show that a lot of times when we want to latch on to something negative, we will miss the obvious. And I simply didn't miss the obvious.

- Well, let's talk a little bit more about "Love and Whiskey." I have started reading, I'm enjoying it. - Good. - You have described it as being the book if Julie and Julia and the immortal life of Henrietta Lacks had a baby, it would be this book. - That's it. It's that book.

I thought that was a great description. - Yes, yes. - Talk a little bit more, what was surprising to you as you did the research? What was surprising to you about Nearest Green and just this story as you pulled it together? - I'd say one of the most surprising things to me is that the story of Nearest Green was always known.

When Jack was alive, he made sure that everybody knew who his mentor, his teacher, and his first master distiller was. Then he passed that to his nephew, who took over the distillery four years before he passed away. He turned it over. And his nephew continued that in telling the story of Nearest Green and the story of his boys, George Green and Eli Green. Then when Lim, his nephew...

his four sons took over Jack Daniel Distillery. They continued. So until 1978, if you had gone on a tour at Jack Daniel Distillery, you would have learned about Nearest and his boys.

and their legacy and the importance. What you would have also learned is that the process that distinguishes Tennessee whiskey from Kentucky bourbon, both are straight bourbon whiskey, and the only thing that distinguishes it, the only difference other than the location, other than the state, the only difference is you must use a process that you take traditional bourbon distillate, you run it through sugar maple charcoal,

And you do that before it goes into the barrel to remove impurities.

Well, Jack's family made sure to put on record that came in with the Africans. That came with the enslaved people. Again, in a country that African Americans could not patent, couldn't trademark, couldn't own anything, they took the time to make sure they put in the press any time the question was posed to them where the process came from, they said it came in with the Africans. That's a big deal for us.

Because so many things that we brought into this country, so many things that we've done, we weren't able to be credited for because we couldn't patent it, we couldn't own it. - Talk a little bit more about Nearest Green's descendants, how you found them, what their role is now with the brand. - Well, prohibition in this country lasted about 19 years. However, in Tennessee it began 10 years before the rest of the country.

Then when the prohibition ended, Tennessee came out county by county. And the last county to come out was the most southernmost town, which is Lynchburg, Tennessee. And so you're talking about a town that had a single industry and the industry was gone for almost 40 years.

So Nearest's family, although they were very prominent as a part of Jack Daniel, the whiskey making and all of that prior to that, some of the family members went to St. Louis, which is actually where Jack Daniel Distillery operated for the 10 years that Tennessee was in prohibition prior to fed prohibition. And so you had a branch in Indianapolis, a branch in St. Louis, branch in Texas, two branches in Tennessee, and they didn't know each other.

Each of them knew they were descendants of Nearest Green, but they didn't know one another. Oh, wow. And as I began gathering the research, which you'll find when you read this book, is that I pulled thousands and thousands of documents and artifacts from six different states, brought them all back to the place where Jack Daniel grew up because I bought the property.

and turned the main lounge area, the cigar lounge, into my research room. And all of the neighbors would begin in Lynchburg, Tennessee, would bring documents. If it had green on it or dandelion on it, they would just bring it over. And so if you had gone into my research room at the time, it looked like something the FBI used. Like every square inch of the walls were covered with

with pictures and documents. And so as I began gathering it and began meeting with each branch of the family, some of the branches were a little skeptical about the other branches. And the way that I was able to convince them all that they were related is the elders of each branch allowed me to take the family album, the family photo album, to digitize it.

Every single one of them had the same photo. Charles Green was a service member in the Army, and every time he went somewhere, he's a handsome guy and he absolutely knew it, because every time he was deployed somewhere, people got postcards with his picture on it. And so the way I was able to convince people that they were related is they all knew Charles Green.

And so from day one, before we ever sold the first bottle of Uncle Nearest, the Nearest Green Foundation was founded and we began paying for all of Nearest's descendants of college age to have a full ride through college. We continue that. We will always continue that.

And so my goal was always to bring the Green family into the business for every aspect of the business. But I didn't think through the process of actually paying for them to get their master's degrees and their JDs because they have no interest in moving to Shelbyville, Tennessee.

Zero interest, zero. I've literally been able to get one and it's a beautiful thing. Nerys' great-great-granddaughter is our master blender. She is the first African-American female master blender of a major spirit brand. And she has now led our company. This is now the sixth year in a row when we announced it in January. It's the sixth year in a row that we are the most awarded bourbon in the world. Wow.

- Wow. Let's talk a little bit about the industry. I'm interested in, did you face challenges in developing this brand that's so closely tied to Jack Daniels, which is obviously a household name? That couldn't have been easy. - Look, people love this question about challenges, so I feel like I'm on this perpetual just, I don't pay attention to challenges.

I don't. And the reason I don't is my job is the solution. If I waste my time on the challenge itself, it takes me longer to get to the solution. And so I expect challenges to be in the way every step of the way. And it's my job to just get to the other side of it. And so coming into an industry in which there had never been a woman or a person of color before me to succeed, just name a challenge and go with it.

I faced all of them. But it doesn't matter. So you got through that. No, every day.

Every day. I take body shots every day. This is an industry that is, by all accounts, in its worst decline in three decades. And Uncle Nearest is almost one of the only brands that's growing, and we're an independent. Independents are not growing in this market. The big guys are gobbling up everything that they can, and Uncle Nearest, we're just like, we understand it's a decline. We appreciate this...

but we don't have time for this. So y'all focus on that problem. We're gonna stay focused on the solution and that's just what we do. So every day I deal with challenges that would probably take most entrepreneurs out.

But I'm not going to speak those challenges because it gives them more weight than they deserve. I can tell you the solutions. Okay. What was the solution to how you created a brand in, I would say, the shadow of a huge brand in the spirits industry? I wasn't in the shadow. I let them know I was there. Okay. Yeah. Great.

You said in an interview, and you mentioned the property, you said that I don't believe you own the brand unless you own the land. Correct.

Your distillery sits on more than 400 acres, making you one of the largest black landowners in Tennessee. - Well, because I own that and the 313 acres where the original Jack Daniel Distillery number seven was, and then so-- - We're getting to 700 acres and plus. - Yeah, we're close to a thousand at this point. - Okay.

What does owning land mean to you? Well, I can say it because we're in D.C. and it'll make it all make a lot more sense. We've got Charlie Palmer, an absolute institution here that is closing next Friday because it couldn't renew its lease. If you do not own the land, you do not own the brand. Hard stop. Everybody taking in these pictures. This is a beautiful property. Oh, and that's when we were under that's when we were essentially under construction. It looks different now.

We are now the seventh most visited distillery in the world, not just bourbon or whiskey distillery, but of the tens of thousands of distilleries in the world, we are the seventh most visited and we are the number one rated in the world on every platform. Wow. Yep.

Let's dig into your story a little bit. In your book, you share how you're the child of a former Motown songwriter turned preacher. You left home at the age of 15, experienced homelessness at one point. You've been public about having suicidal thoughts at other times. No, no, no. Let's clarify this. I left home when I was 15. I dropped out of high school. I spent my

I went to Jordan Downs in Watts, and I lived in the projects for a time before living in three homeless shelters by the time I was 18 years old. I tried to commit suicide twice when I was 20 years old. - That's specific, yes.

I should have been a journalist because I love accuracy. Well, tell us what those thoughts and hardships, those challenges stirred in you. You just mentioned being very solution-oriented. How did that shape you for where you are now? Yeah, well, I think that there's a couple of things. Number one, the...

growing up and coming through that situation, when you're 20 years old, your brain isn't fully formed. And if the first 20 years of your life have been very difficult, you're not really interested in doubling down on that time. And that is just, I believe it's more normal and natural for teenagers because you don't have the ability yet to really process, oh, this does get better.

You just look at, you know, the past as prologue and go, I don't want this for the next 20 years. But I wouldn't change it for anything in the world because two things happened when I laid in the bed for the second time in the hospital. The first thing that happened is, is that I discovered that I was absolutely most definitely here for a reason.

And I wanted to know what that reason was. I wanted to know what, at that time, I would have described as purpose. I now am very clear that you're born with your purpose. Your purpose is you. What you do in every season may be different. And how you move and what you are meant to do, what you are called to do in every season may be different. But your purpose is with you at all times. Just like for every woman, you were born with every egg in your ovary you were ever going to have, you were born with your purpose.

And so in that bed, I said, I'm going to figure out why I am here and I'm going to do the work.

So that was the first thing. The second thing is, is I had now tried to take myself out twice, was unsuccessful both times. So I came to the conclusion on that day in that bed that if I couldn't take me out, nobody could take me out. And I have spent the last 28 years as if nobody could take me out. That's why with a $24 billion company on the other side, I wasn't in the shadow. I said, I'm here. Okay.

Fawn, I first came across you and your story on Instagram where you often talk about leadership. Hers is a great account to follow if you don't follow Fawn. You frequently use the hashtag purpose-driven CEO. You just talked about purpose a little bit, but what does that mean to you when you talk about being a purpose-driven CEO? It means that I am doing exactly what I was called to do.

I move unapologetically and authentically because I don't believe that you can do what you were called to do if you're sugarcoating it, wrapping it in a bowl, stepping on eggshells. You gotta go in and do what it is that you were called to do.

you have to look at it and know that might bother a few people, but it won't bother the people that are a part of this vision that you are supposed to live out. And so that for me, purpose-driven CEO, I've been very clear from day one where I'm taking this company to. And it doesn't really matter to me if someone looks at it and goes, that's too big of a goal. Okay, well, that's too big of a goal for you. It's a sizable goal for me.

That's great. Well, I think we are going to have to leave it there. Unfortunately, we're out of time. Thanks for listening. For more information on our upcoming programs, go to WashingtonPostLive.com.