Warrior of Truth
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Hello, everybody. I'm Tina Brown, as you well know. We're here as the Burgundy Babes today. It's my privilege to be here today with a woman I consider to be a human rights superhero.

Keelan Gallagher is a remarkable warrior for the truth, a tenacious Irish barrister at London's celebrated Doughty Street Chambers, which is the largest human rights practice in Europe, home to such legal titans as Amal Clooney and Founders Baroness Helena Kennedy, the legendary social reformer, and Geoffrey Robertson, who's argued many landmark cases in front of the UN war crimes courts.

As for Keelan, she goes up against some of the most repressive authoritarian governments in the world. The all-powerful Chinese Communist Party, the mullahs in Iran, the freedom-grabbing regimes in the Philippines and Guatemala. Last year, she received the President of Ireland's Distinguished Service Award for the Irish abroad, and we're very, very fortunate to have her here today. Hi. Welcome, Keelan. Thank you. So I want to start by asking you about...

your client, 77-year-old Jimmy Lai, who's currently on the stand in Hong Kong. When asked why, for two decades, he published Apple Daily, a newspaper that called for the democratic rights promised to Hong Kong citizens, Jimmy Lai said simply, "The more information you have, the more you're free." He's a tremendous hero. Talk about his case, Keelan, and what he's endured, and the life sentence that he's facing.

So Jimmy Lai, for those of you who don't know, is a remarkable man. He came from mainland China to Hong Kong as a 12-year-old, as a child refugee, having stowed away in a boat, came with absolutely nothing, was working in a clothes factory on day one in order to pay back his traffickers and because he was starving, and from there worked himself up to become one of the richest men in Asia. Just a remarkable, remarkable man.

And with the fortune that he then amassed running a clothes company called Giordano, amongst other things, he decided in 1989 when he saw the Tiananmen Square massacre

that he needed to speak truth to power, and he decided to divert the fortune that he'd made as a completely self-made man to set up a media company because he believed that information is power, and he wanted to ensure that there was a pro-democracy, anti-corruption, pro-human rights newspaper which would stand up to Beijing's leaders.

So he did that in 1989, inspired by Tiananmen Square. And of course, won't surprise you to know that as a result of that, he was targeted for many decades in multiple different ways. His home and business firebombed, family pets killed, advertisers targeted. So multiple ways to try to strangle his work and try to silence him.

But what's happened in the last four years is that the most powerful weapon of all has been used against him, and that's the law. And we saw my client Maria Ressa on the screen there in the video, the Nobel Peace Prize-winning journalist from the Philippines. And Maria, a number of years ago, started using the phrase lawfare about what journalists are facing worldwide. So the law being weaponised...

to try to silence journalists. And that's exactly what Jimmy Lai has faced. So for four years, he's faced a barrage of completely spurious lawsuits, including, just to give one example, he received a sentence of 13 months for attending a Tiananmen Square vigil for 15 minutes, lighting a candle and saying a prayer.

So that's the kind of regime you're dealing with. But what he's facing now is the most serious legal battle of all. So he's charged under the national security law in Hong Kong and with sedition laws, so colonial era sedition laws. And he's charged with a series of offences. And really it boils down to three things. First of all, he's essentially charged with conspiracy to commit journalism.

because he's charged with running a newspaper which had an editorial line which was pro-democracy, stood up to Beijing and Hong Kong's leaders.

Second, he's charged with raising human rights concerns with human rights organisations internationally. It's dressed up as a charge of collusion with foreign forces, but that's what it is. And thirdly, he's accused of raising political issues with politicians worldwide, again, dressed up as collusion with foreign forces. And the US is front and centre of the case against him, because the argument that's being made and that's playing out in a Hong Kong courtroom is that

He wrote pieces and he presided over his newspaper writing pieces which were pro-democracy and coincided with political positions that the US government takes. And he met with individuals like, for example, Speaker Pelosi, who was here earlier. And for all those reasons, he's accused of being a terrorist, being a criminal, when in reality, he's a journalist and a pro-democracy campaigner who's going to die behind bars unless we do something about it.

Well, he's been in solitary confinement, has he not, for the last four years? That's right. And he's 77. So solitary confinement continuously since December 2020. He's...

was first arrested in August 2020. And just to put that into context, international law makes clear that solitary confinement, which goes beyond 15 days, is inhuman and degrading treatment. And here we have a man, age 77, diabetic, who has been in prolonged solitary confinement for over 1,400 days.

And just yesterday, I saw my friend and someone I'm privileged to work with, Jason Rezaian of The Washington Post. And Jason, of course, 10 years ago, when he was arrested for being a journalist in Iran, he spent a period of time in solitary confinement, I believe about seven weeks,

and he was speaking yesterday about how much that's impacted upon him and still impacts upon him now. I just saw Vladimir Karamurza, the brilliant Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, a couple of weeks ago. He spent nine months in solitary confinement in Russia. And both of those men have said that they have a really visceral reaction when they hear about Jimmy Lai, elderly, diabetic,

languishing in solitary confinement for four years. It's a disgrace what's happening to this man, and we should be shouting from the rooftops about it. Absolutely. Well, President-elect Trump, of course, was asked about Jimmy last month, and he said, and I'll quote, I'll 100% get him out, which prompted Beijing to warn Trump against interfering.

Jimmy's a British citizen, obviously, but what can Trump do to frame? Do you think he's serious when he says that? I do think he's serious. And we were pleased to see that President-elect Trump considers this case to be a priority. We've had superb bipartisan support here in the US.

over a number of years on this case. And we've had very good support from the Biden administration also. It's been a priority for the Biden administration. It's clear from those words it's going to be a priority for the Trump administration too. And that's very welcome to see. I mean, this is a man who stood up

for American values and indeed America itself is being weaponised in the case against him. And I should say, I mentioned Vladimir Karamurza, we're only a number of months from that remarkable deal which saw three US citizens, Evan,

and Marine Paul Whelan returned home to their families in the largest prisoner swap that we've seen between the US and Russia since the Cold War. And with multiple other countries worldwide involved, including Germany, Canada, Ireland, many others,

And in that deal was Vladimir Karamurza, who, of course, is a British national, but very close U.S. links. And a columnist in the Washington Post. Well, exactly. And, of course, Jimmy Lai, similarly, not a U.S. national, but very closely connected to the U.S., including having a U.S. family.

And it seems to us that given the recent success that we've seen in relation to Russia, while war is raging in Ukraine, it is not beyond our ability to do the same thing in relation to China. I mean, I guess I look at this opaque China system and their absolute, you know, rarum and time disregard, essentially, for the world. What are the pressure points that you can apply to China? It seems to me that they're impervious to pressure points.

Well, first thing to say is I've worked in this field for about 25 years and you can never despair because, you know, I had a client earlier this year who was being tortured in Baghdad, an Irish national, and we managed to get him out through political will, creativity and doing something about it effectively and quickly.

Similarly, I've got clients out of Iran, clients out of Saudi Arabia, clients out of Russia. And there is no enemy too big. You can take them on if you do it properly. And it seems to me we've had some very recent examples of that happening with China. So we do know China is open to engaging and to reconsidering

when the right pressure is applied. Just a number of weeks ago, the US secured the return home of an American citizen, Pastor David Lynn, shortly after Jake Sullivan traveled over to Beijing. Canada secured the release of the two Michaels.

Australia secured the release of a brilliant Australian journalist who was detained in China, Cheng Lai, after creativity and pressure being applied by the Australians. And as you can tell from my bizarrely spelt name, I'm Irish. Ireland also secured the return of businessman Richard O'Halloran. So we've seen successes against China and seems to me here we can and should do it.

And the bottom line is, in every single case I've ever done about a political prisoner, it's always about the hassle factor. How do you make it more hassle for the detaining state to continue behaving in this way than to do the opposite? It's always risk benefit.

And here, we've got to ensure that Jimmy Lai is a thorn in the Chinese and Hong Kong authorities' side. And they see that continuing to do this to this brave man is simply not in their interests. We know that the Chinese and Hong Kong economies are under pressure. We know that Hong Kong wants to present itself

as being an investment hub, a place where it's safe to do business. That's the message that they're trying to send out to the world. And what we need to say to them is, as long as you have this 77-year-old man behind bars and you're behaving in the way you did to the Hong Kong 45 who were sentenced this week, you're undermining your own policy goals. If you want to have international investment and US businesses and US citizens feeling safe there, you've got to change your ways and let this man out.

Well, I mean, Keelan, you're a famously sort of tenacious and passionate lawyer. And I guess, you know, you spend your time in these immensely sort of complex and, you know, intractable cases. What has given you this burning conviction to do this work?

Yeah, so I suppose it won't surprise anyone who knew me when I was a child that I've taken up a job which involves arguing for a living. But really, I suppose, it sounds a bit cheesy, but from quite an early age, I was very clear that I wanted to do something which made a difference. I wasn't quite sure what that looked like, if it was writing or some other kind of campaigning work. I wasn't sure.

So my work in law came from that place, wanting to do something. And I've definitely, from a very early age, had a real dose of the it's not fair gene. So I've kind of tried to carry that through. And then I suppose when I started studying law many moons ago, I actually read a book called

at quite a formative stage by someone who at the time I admired from afar and is now a very close friend, you mentioned at the start, Baroness Helena Kennedy. She wrote a brilliant book called Eve Was Framed and it was all about how the law is kind of loaded against women. And when I read that, it really changed. It was one of those road to Damascus moments for me. It just really turned on a light switch.

I thought more about what law is, how it can be used, how it can be used as a tool for good. And really, I've tried to carry that through in the work that I do. Well, you've had a lot of threats, haven't you, personally? I mean, tell us a little bit about that and also what you've been doing to protect...

women journalists particularly who are getting more and more threatened. Yeah, it's one of those things. It's always a bit uncomfortable. It's like you hear that phrase about the journalists not wanting to become the story. But similarly, you know, the lawyer is secondary. So the people I really admire are my clients. And particularly in relation to female journalists for many years, I've worked on issues to do with

female journalists facing misogynistic, sexist, often racist attacks also when you're dealing with women of colour online and in the real world. And many of my clients have experienced that, including Daphne Caruana Galizia, so the journalist who was assassinated in Malta, and also Maria Ressa, who we heard from, who receives multiple threats online. And I'm now the victim of that myself, but I suppose...

What's happened over the last number of years is it's not a surprise that lawyers get targeted in a secondary way when you're dealing with these sensitive cases. So being subjected to spyware or surveillance or hacking attempts, for example, because it's all designed to get information about your clients.

So for many years, I've had that, not a surprise, working on cases involving Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran. That goes with the territory. And I've had some very frightening experiences over the years, including being detained in a Middle Eastern country, having a series of threats. But what's really changed in the last...

couple of years is working against China and what I've experienced in relation to China is terrifying frankly and it's why what are they what are they doing

So it's a few different things. So because I work on this case for Jimmy Lai, I've been declared an enemy of the state in state media, China and Hong Kong. It's been made clear that simply because I represent Jimmy Lai internationally and I've brought cases to the United Nations, the Hong Kong authorities consider me to be a criminal. That's the new Hong Kong. Bringing a human rights case

to the United Nations equals collusion with foreign forces in their new environment. So obviously threats to prosecute me makes for very complicated travel arrangements because I of course can't travel to China and Hong Kong but I also can't travel to any country which either has an extradition treaty with them or which has a history of kidnap attempts. So rules out flying through Dubai for example rules out flying to a whole range of countries worldwide. Because you could be renditioned by them. Absolutely. So we have to

We have to guard against that. But the other thing which is probably worth saying is I've had some very serious attempts to hack my accounts and also death threats, rape threats, dismemberment threats. It's my daughter's 16th birthday this week. I've had some extremely graphic, revolting threats about my daughter.

And of course, when you receive that, you know about it because of course it's happened to my clients for many years. It's very frightening when it happens. And often when you receive the online threats, which are serious and are being taken seriously by law enforcement officials,

when you receive them, you often receive them when you're on your own or it's five in the morning, for example. I often receive them when I'm traveling for work and they make clear they know where I'm traveling to, they know what hotel I'm staying in and it's frightening. But the main thing which it does for me is to be honest, it makes me more determined to do my job. I think it shows we're rattling the right cages

And if they're this determined to target me because of my work for my clients, think about my clients. So it makes me more resolute that I need to do all I can and I'm not letting them frighten me off. Well, I mean, I think a lot of people actually think that Maria Ressa's case is closed and you tell me that it's not, that she still has many cases against her.

How is she doing in the fight for those, against those? So Maria Ressa is remarkable and a real hero of mine. And what's happened with Maria is because we've had some victories, including very recently, so I lead the case for Maria internationally with my colleague and friend Amal Clooney, we've had some real successes. So there were originally 13 active cases, about 17 or 18 prosecutions,

proposed cases, and we've now got that down to two. So of course, that's positive. But Maria remains with a six-year sentence, a conviction, for journalism. So she's got a six-year custodial sentence, which is currently being appealed and is before the Supreme Court in the Philippines. So she has a sword of Damocles hanging over her, as she still, every time she wants to travel, has to get permission from multiple courts.

And she also has a remaining charge against her which is yet to be resolved, which could result in her receiving about a 15-year prison sentence. So she still, as a Nobel Peace Prize winner, faces potentially decades behind bars for doing her job. And yet she stays in the Philippines. It's so brave. She does. She's incredible. And look, we're having this conversation so shortly after the horrendous experience of Alexei Navalny. I just saw his widow last week

in London. And, you know, that is an individual who, in fact, was out of Russia and chose to return. I mean, similarly with Maria, we've seen her determined to stay put in Manila. She's currently doing an academic role in the US, in New York, but she's over and back to Manila all the time, despite the very grave risks to her. Similarly, Jimmy Lai, you know, who is

very rich person, could have left, could be having a very comfortable life joining us here in the room today in Washington, living in DC, living in London, but he chose to stay put. And it seems to me individuals like that who decide that they're going to stand up and be counted and to stay despite grave risk to them, it is incumbent upon us to stand up for them and to shine a light on what's happening to these total heroes. Yeah, yeah. It's really inspiring.

Last year you testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about the growing trend of some governments not just going after journalists or critics in their own countries, but actually reaching across borders to target them, which I think is very frightening. It feels like you're not safe anywhere. Which countries are the worst culprits, would you say, about that?

Of course. Disregard of borders. So there's a number of them. I mean, we all know of some high-profile cases, like Jamal Khashoggi, for example, being dismembered for being a journalist across borders. Another Washington Post columnist. Well, precisely. We all know, of course, about Belarus literally hijacking a Ryanair plane in order to try to bring someone back

within jurisdiction, and about Russia's murderous actions, attempting to poison people that it disagrees with in other places. One of the worst culprits currently is Iran. And I represent multiple journalists from Iran International and BBC News Persian, so hundreds of journalists who have active death threats against their lives here in the U.S.,

in the UK, in Sweden, in France, in Germany, in Australia, simply for doing their job, for being journalists. Because, of course, Iran for many years targeted journalists within its own territory, but it's now decided that's not sufficient. And the way that it wants to try to gag those who speak truth to power is by reaching cross-border. One of my clients was on Good Friday this year in London, stabbed in broad daylight.

So on his way to the studio, he gets accosted by three men in a car who have actually flown in that day from Heathrow Airport, stab him and then leave. And they deliberately chose to do that on a bank holiday. But let me give you one other very stark and shocking example from Iran International. There was a plot which the Iranian regime had concocted

to try to kill two journalists from Iran International, a man and a woman. It was codenamed "The Wedding". So the woman was codenamed "The Bride", the man was codenamed "The Groom". The woman was based in London, the man was based here in Washington DC. And the way that the male journalist learned of that very serious risk to his life was

was when he was called and asked for a comment on it by a journalist from London. So one of the real issues that I'm now seeing in relation to transnational repression is that there's a real failure of sharing law enforcement information because our systems are simply not set up to deal with these kind of risks.

cross-border. And there, there was an information gap where it was known to some other law enforcement officials and simply wasn't shared with the right agencies here. Now he's now left Washington, D.C., is based somewhere else in the U.S. But that's a really stark example of what we're facing.

What I think is also very scary for journalists is that many of them now, with the shrinking of journalism, with the media companies collapsing, so many brave reporters are actually freelance. They don't have any backing. They don't have the mighty Washington Post or the mighty Wall Street Journal to be lobbying for their release.

Do you see that as a growing problem for journalism? Yeah, very much so. And particularly in the work that I do for bereaved families of journalists who've been killed, one of the real difficulties is when you have somebody who's a freelancer because they simply don't have the kind of structural support

And Daphne Caruana Galizia from Malta, who you saw in the film, was a freelancer and a hugely influential journalist in Malta. She, in fact, when she was aged only 23, became the first woman who ran a column in her own name in Malta. And she was 23. She had three very young boys at the time, two of whom were still in nappies at that age.

And that's why she really became known as Malta's conscience. Her work was searing and

and absolutely brilliant, but she was left completely on her own when she was fighting multiple attacks. I mentioned earlier the kind of attacks that Jimmy Lai has faced over the years in Hong Kong for doing his work. And there are real similarities between what he experienced and what Daphne and her family experienced. So hate attacks online, for example, also killing of family pets, firebombing of her home. And if you have a chance, 10 days before her death,

She gave a remarkable interview to the Council of Europe where she set out in her own words the danger that she was in. And she described all the multiplicity of ways that people were trying to silence her, including 48 active lawsuits at the time, slap suits. And she said, you get used to it like a scar forms around a wound. She set out in her own words the danger she was in.

Ten days later, she was dead. And one of the key issues about that case is not only what Malta did and how Malta failed to protect her life and in fact contributed to the culture of impunity. One of the real issues for me is that this happened in plain sight and that Western governments and other governments saw what was happening in Malta and did not step in. We saw the same thing with Jamal Khashoggi. We saw what was happening. She was blown up in her car. It was absolutely tragic. Keelan, we could talk to you all day and...

The work you do is remarkable. I know if I get into any trouble, you're the only person I'm going to want to call. So I want to thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. To share some of this. Thanks for listening. For more information on our upcoming programs, go to WashingtonPostLive.com.