Episode 296: ADE Book Club--Ruth by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Today's episode is brought to you by Sabbath Mood Homeschool's Living Science Study Guides, a Charlotte Mason resource for exploring science, a vast and joyous realm. Nicole Williams of A Delectable Education has begun publishing a living science curriculum that adheres to Mason's philosophy and her methods, in addition to offering contemporary scientific knowledge that conforms to current, next-generation science standards.

Mason's goal for school science was to instill a sense of wonder and awe in students, and to provide them with the common information that allows for scientific literacy. Today, the mass of common information has grown in the last 100 years, so books must be selected carefully, or science can quickly crowd out other aspects of the feast all students should partake of.

Though parents recognize the importance of these aims, they lack the time or knowledge to navigate this subject for their own children. By using Nicole's curriculum, you can feel confident that your children are being nourished by the kind of living science education Mason had in mind, one that creates a sense of wonder and admiration while also preparing them to be scientifically literate citizens.

Visit Nicole's website, SabbathMoodHomeschool.com, to browse the curriculum she has available for students in grades 4 through 12. Welcome to A Delectable Education, the podcast that spreads the feast of the Charlotte Mason Method. I'm Emily Kaiser, and I'm here with... Nicole Williams. And Liz Gattrill. And today, we are going to bring you a treat for the past...

few years since establishing the online conference, we have moved our annual book club discussion to that event rather than confine it to the three of us blabbing about the book together ourselves. Praise the Lord. Listen in. So attendees of the conference may come and contribute their thoughts and reactions and observations. As always,

This year's conference discussion was enlightening, shall I say enlivening and enthusiastic. And so if you are unable to join us, then today is your opportunity to listen in. If you read this year's selection, Ruth by Elizabeth Gaskell, you'll be delighted. If you're

not, perhaps listening to this conversation will inspire you to go and read that book yourself. We try to choose books Ms. Mason referenced in her volumes or chose for the programs for her students.

It was a controversial book in Victorian England, but Mason saw the value of allowing students to face social stigma with compassion and receive moral instruction for themselves and their neighbors. It still speaks a powerful message today with even greater social challenges than this book presents. So I hope you enjoy it.

Ruth was one of her earlier novels. I think she wrote eight and she wrote a few other little collections, even some poetry. She wrote for, um, Charles Dickens magazine. And so a couple of her novels, uh, were written in serial form. So people got, you know, just the way we turn into TV shows anyway. Um, she was, she's the one that really, um,

was the authorized biographer of Charlotte Bronte and made her famous too. So anyway, Ruth is one of those novels that is working toward changing society. So many novels of that era were doing those kinds of things. You know, some of you have read uncle Tom's cabin, um,

But think of how similar some of the themes in this book are to books like Adam Bede by George Eliot or Tess of the D'Urbervilles by Hardy or David Copperfield has some of these same themes in it. Yeah.

Scarlet Letter, you know, by Hawthorne. Dealing with difficult issues. And I think this is what I love about novels is because then we start having little dialogues within our own self. And then we get to have them with other people that have read the book and those conversations help us to work things out and improve.

I think they're just really valuable because they bring in sometimes the double standards that we just accept and live with and have never given second thought to. And I think you can see how this novel definitely pushed against the Victorian double standard, right? Yeah. So I want to hear what you all thought, and this should be mostly you guys talking. So let's just start out by telling me,

how would you describe Ruth? Especially as she was seen in the beginning of the novel, because she definitely went through some changes, right?

She was so young and at first, and I actually, I didn't read the synopsis. So I kept trying to see, okay, is this like little Ruth and Boaz? Like, is she going to be saved? Is she going to be saved from this? And then she wasn't saved. I mean, later she was, but you know what, at the very first part,

But yeah, she has such... She's kind of whiny and childish, of course. But then she has, it seems like, a good moral character. And then all of a sudden, just...

I mean, I saw the foreshadowing, of course. I can't remember his name by the one man in the house, her parents' old house. Like this, this is no good. And then I saw, oh, this man is not good. You know, it took, it took me a second to realize he's not a good guy. Yeah.

So, yeah. And you have grown up in a culture that is much more savvy about these things. I mean, she was so sheltered and overprotected. I don't know. Anybody else have some ideas about Ruth that they got the first impressions? I'll go. My first impressions of her were that she was so incredibly sweet. And she knew she was beautiful, but she was humble about it.

And what appealed to me most was her love of nature. She noticed so many things about nature. She loved beauty. Yes. To piggyback on that, I also noticed she was very meek and there was something really winsome about her character, which I think Mr. Bellingham saw in her. And we almost it was you were kind of rooting for this, except for there were, you know, little like warnings along the way.

But there was something so winsome about her character that you just kind of fall in love with, although it's immature at first. Yeah. Why do you think she didn't get those warnings? I thought she was so lonely. And perhaps I think in one of the parts that said that the there were only two people had spoken like nice things to her and Mr. Bellingham was one of them. Right. So he seemed a safe place.

Did you have any characters in the book that were your favorites and why? Definitely Sally. She's just so funny. And the things she says, I was like, I just loved her every time. She talks about her taking the extra money they wanted to give her and like putting it in an account and like getting the extra legal things. And just like in the end of it was like, if a woman wants something, she'll find a way to do it. It's just really funny note. So yeah.

My husband didn't think it was as funny as I did when I told him about it. I just think that all of us really enjoyed this novel. Like last year we had a lot of hard time jumping in. My favorite character was Mr. Benson. I just loved him from the beginning to the end. I thought he really was the most Christ-like character. And

Yeah. Just always considering other people and what was good for them above himself. Well, I think definitely Mr. Benson also, but I have to put a plug in for Jemima because even though, well, I think the one I know she's not the one I related to most. I just, I appreciated that

Well, at first I recognized that her dad just steered her all wrong. But then she...

Took responsibility for it. Like she didn't blame and, and stuff. She, she tried to come back and make right what she had made wrong. And I, I just really honored that. So, so Mr. Benson is definitely my favorite also, but I had to just give a little plug for Jemima. Yeah. Well, and you know, it's so interesting when she said like kind of comes to the realization that Ruth is not who she thought she was and always had looked up to. Yeah.

what it moved in her was pity instead of disdain. Like she had been disdaining her before that, but it was seeing her for who she really was that caused her to pity. And I thought that was good. Anybody else want to comment? Miss Benson was my favorite. There was something about her that reminded me of Betsy Trotwood. She does. That book. Yeah. From David Copperfield. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that whole household. Oh, yeah. I mean, it made me feel like the justice of God all through that book because Ruth was so trusting, gullible, naive and really had never been instructed. So how would she know any different? She didn't know the ways of the world or anything.

But just that she was rescued by an amazing person, put in an amazing household. And it just seemed like the grace of God throughout the whole thing to me. So what was Mrs. Gaskell? What was the social evil of that century that she was confronting in this novel? Wasn't it the double standard of like,

Mr. Bellingham was able to father an illegitimate child and be just fine. And in fact, uh,

you know, exceed his career and continue to make money. And Ruth couldn't even find a job after it was all let out. And her son, I mean, I was kind of afraid for his life a little bit, how sickly he became. And after, you know, his mother told him the news about, you know, his real parentage and everything and how he

possibly how nervous he was for her and him, like hearing things on the streets and all of that. Um, but yeah, just that double standard. And she Gaskell was, I think really hitting home. Like, Hey, there can be redept. Like Mr. Benson had said several times, you know, there can be redemption in these stories and that's what Christ asked us to do. Um,

Yeah. And, and just a side note, we've also taken it, and I'm sure a lot of people have seen this, but taking it to the other extreme where it's like now illegitimate children are fine and it's good and it's okay. And we should have like some sort of neutral middle. Except still today, the, the, the fathers are pretty much free as birds. They can go do what they want.

And it's just that the women are saying, well, I'll abandon my responsibility to, you know, well, and really that the social stigma was not just on her, but for her child who had no culpability in it. Yeah.

At all. I think that was what made me the most infuriated, the whole book, you know, just that was never something that could go away. And actually was something, I don't know if this is jumping ahead to what you want to get into, but it really bothered me. Even these people who saw that she is redeemed and she has found forgiveness and even understanding to some degree how, I mean, I don't hold her.

completely guilty of what she felt. You know, she even didn't want to do that. And she didn't even have any recollection or understanding of what was going to happen to her. But just how...

she could never get rid of that for her entire life. You know, even after she had found forgiveness and had lived a completely moral and self-righteous life, that that was something that was still, even by the, even by, you know, quote unquote Christians or to some degree, even the family that loved her and saw that she was not responsible, there was still this stain over her that would not be wiped away.

But I thought it was so cool how that doctor at the end, even in that society, he did offer to take her child and kind of give him a new life because he saw all the goodness in her. So he was willing to break free of maybe the society in some way. Yeah.

Another sign of grace in that book. And but the so the woman that was ahead of the sewing shop where she worked, how just the idea that she was alone with a man on a Sunday afternoon was enough to get her fired.

Yeah. Which the irony as she's like coming home from dealing with her son, who she refuses to hear anything bad about her child, which I, that's the double standard again about the men that like, no one assumes that Ruth who's so young and so innocent has no one guiding her could be the one who really is played upon here. The men who are so much older that are going on society, but also like seeing that double standard in Mr. Bradshaw, um,

just told me that he goes through this whole phase of the politicking and he's going to go out and they're going to buy votes. And he's feeling guilty. He doesn't even want to go to church because he knows, because he knows that he's going to be talked to about this, that it's something that he knows is wrong and he doesn't want to do it. So he's doing it blatantly and intentionally, despite knowing better, but,

But then he holds Ruth to this terrible standard when he can see what a good person she is and what a good example she is now, but he can't let go of the past. And what a contrast between Ruth and his deceitful son. I mean, really the men for the, you know, those young men were not portrayed in a very good light in so many ways. But the stigma that she felt, I think a lot of, do you think people reading this book today would not understand Ruth?

how imprisoning that whole society's prejudice would be toward her.

I mean, I am old enough that I remember when my parents were divorced back in the early 60s. I was the only child in my classroom at school whose parents were divorced. And I remember feeling horrible shame. Like it was so embarrassing to me to tell people my mother had a different last name. So I can just imagine, you know, 100 years before that, if a girl went wrong, she was just cast out and shunned.

What was Ruth's sin and what was Bellingham's sin? Fornication. There you go. Fornication. And they were not married. Right. So she wasn't innocent, right? I think Charlotte Mason called this book, this was one of her reasons. She said this is the history of a seduction is what she said about this story.

So how do you think this book could be relevant in the 21st century? Can I go back? I loved what Sandy said. Because, Liz, you asked what were each of their sins. But I'm a Westminster Reformed person, and one of the questions in our Westminster Shorter Catechism is,

asks about degrees of sins and some sins in themselves are worse than other sins by reason of aggravations. That guy knew what he was doing. He's a sleaze and you could tell he was like practiced at this and Ruth did wrong, but he did wronger. Yeah.

Well, and wasn't it like she actually had no idea until that little child said, you naughty girl, that she was even in the wrong because she had not the upbringing to know better. So that would make him like what scripture talks about leading one of these little ones astray. Right. Yeah. It makes me think of where Paul says, but woman was deceived.

And I've heard that verse used to say, oh, women are more easily deceived when in actual fact, what Paul is getting at is Adam was more responsible because he was given the command and it was his responsibility to teach Eve. And yeah, he was held to a higher standard and she was merely deceived, but he willfully chose the wrong to disobey.

And to me, her sense almost more of an idolization of love and affection. I feel like it talks about this. I don't know if it was in one of, if it was Charlotte Mason talking about her books, but that she was so craved and starved for affection, but that's really what she was grasping at. And his was just like downright lust. There's kind of a difference there. Yeah.

Yes. And she was ill, like, you know, all of a sudden just overcome with the, like, what am I going to do? And it made her physically ill. And she had a thought, like, I could just go back to my house and these people who've known me since a childhood, they would help me and asked him, you know, to that, but she's so weak and he definitely preyed upon her and took advantage. Yeah. Yeah.

It was an agonizing moment at that inn where she has the road back to a safe place and he comes and he's kind of dismissing her and then when the way that the author ends it and then the

the road was taken to London and it's just agonizing. She knew the right that she should do. And, and he took that from her and he disregarded her. So that was hard to, but the author took us there. Yeah. And they, they both lost their future. You know, that was a consequence for, for both of them. Like he never became anything.

never was satisfied never was happy and You know, he reaped what he sowed and so did Ruth But then she started sewing other things and reaped from that too. So anybody else have any thoughts like how do you think? Kids would read this today with the kinds of movies music and

Books, they have, you know, the whole milieu, the culture that we live in is very different. So is this book irrelevant for today? Or do you think our children could still learn something from this?

I think there is a lot to learn. Sorry. I think there's a lot to learn from this. I mean, you think about that moment at the end. And it made me think about one of the questions that was asked in one of the polls about what is reasoning and how a lot of people responded that they wanted to try to keep reasoning.

teach their children not to go astray, I think was the answer. But you see this so much in this book and just how heartbreaking that moment is. Our kids and teens and adults are having moments just like that. They might look a little different. They might come along more often than in this book, but I think it's very relevant. I also think it's...

Go ahead, Michelle. I think it's also interesting how much repentance she does throughout the book. And there's just so much ignorance. And I think it's worth starting a discussion on like keeping your kids sheltered versus like street smarts. Like, how do you communicate? Like when my kids were little,

We were in Detroit and there'd be things that would happen at the park sometimes that would make me uncomfortable. And instead of just being like, it's fine. I decided to be like, mommy doesn't feel good about this situation. Like my gut says we should leave and communicate that with my daughter. So she could learn the street smart to be like, something's off. We should go instead of pretending like it's cool and just leave so that she knew what to feel. You know, it's like, no, like this person is preying on me.

or whatever. I think it's important to maybe have those conversations with a book like this. Like what, where are the, where are the holes? I think that's a very good point, Michelle, very much. One of the things that I thought too, that I think is relevant to our children is this idea of, of when do we forgive and allow somebody into our fold who is

should be outcast because maybe this isn't the reason that we would choose in, in our modern day, but we have reasons there. All of us have a list of reasons. Like, no, that won't be allowed in my house. But Mr. Benson brought her in even against his sister, against Sally had to reason with them why he would do that, but made that choice to redeem her and,

And, and I think that we are faced with some of those same questions today. Like when, when is it time to redeem somebody, even at our own detriment and give them a second chance and a hope. And so that was probably the biggest theme I got from it. I also, I also think it would be very relevant or helpful for our children because regardless of

particular sins, you know, it might be different for them. It does show the trajectory of a life, right? Like we get a bigger, it's not the little rom-com where everything works out and we have this attraction and it's nice and you don't see the hard years that come ahead. You know, here we have a massive consequence of,

multiple consequences of this action, but how it's played out over the course of a life and that it's hopeful that, you know, making a bad decision or, you know, sinning greatly or whatever is not the end of your life, but you can be redeemed and the path through that. And even I love that Ruth had to tell her son the truth and in that recognition, you

I mean, I can't imagine having to do that to a child. Yeah. But it was like the making of her, I think when she actually admitted to him and would definitely, it changed him and marked him, but he, he did survive and became stronger. I think because of it. Could I also say one thing that really, I still am ruminating on it is the, the question of when, when,

They lied for quite a while. Miss Benson, Mr. Benson, Sally and Ruth, she committed a sin and then they lied about it, you know, and it was hard because I felt a lot of sympathy with Miss Benson's ideology that even when it all came out, Miss Benson was still like, well, I'm going to do it.

She's fine now because we told this lie. Because she had time to heal. She had time to grow. And Mr. Benson was just so firm about, no, it was always wrong. It was wrong then. It's wrong now. And I feel like I feel so conflicted almost. But I feel like this is such a conversation I want to have with my children and everything. That it's like what we always have to be right with God. Yeah.

Yeah, that's just the conflict. I still have it. I still am wondering sometimes. I'm like, well, she had eight years of healing, of coming into society, of maturing. Her son loved her. Her son spent all those years not marked. How would it have turned out if from the very beginning, if they all told the truth? And I still don't know. So...

What did Ruth gain from that lie? Like what, if they hadn't lied, what would have happened to her? He would have lost the pastorate, no doubt. And she would probably have been relegated to the poor house and, um,

So I feel like it's almost like one of those. Sorry. Yeah, dad, get that dinner going. So I feel like it's similar to the midwives in Exodus that to protect the babies, they lied or Rahab protecting the spies for Israel by lying.

you know, Corrie ten Boom to protect the lives of the nine people behind the wall in her home. She lied. And it doesn't seem like God has judged her

Life is precious and that is the higher standard and to protect life. We sometimes have to cover people up and sometimes we have to do that, I guess, with a lie. Because it didn't really it didn't cause her to not repent. Right. The lie wasn't true.

getting in between or, or eliminating the need for her to repent. She goes to church that first Sunday with them and it's just completely distraught and penitent and wrestling with the Lord. So I don't think the lie stood in, in, in,

What is the word I would need? It was not, it was not a stumbling block for her, but it only had positive. And I, it wasn't telling that Mr. Benson, he didn't really have a problem with the lie until she was going to be employed in someone else's home. And then he felt the, the need, I should tell Mr. Bradshaw that she is not this way. And, and I think that was the only point that he felt remorse about. Right. So, um,

I think that a lot of children who are very overprotected are in that same danger zone as Ruth.

And I wonder if a book like this could help children to work some of these issues out before they have the handsome man smiling at them and leading them astray. And it gets back to Charlotte Mason's principles about how content doesn't corrupt a young person, but it can instruct them. And that's the value of having a fictional account, right? Yeah.

Dangerous books, that great talk from a few years ago. Why? So why do you think, though, that Mason thought this novel was valuable? I mean, she chapter six of ourselves. What is it? Our conscience, conscience in the body. She spends 11 pages on this novel.

I think one of the biggest takeaways for me, or one of the things that struck me most, was the moral atmosphere of the Bensons' home for Ruth and how her soul just seems nearly perfectly sanctified by the time she dies at the end of the novel. And I feel like that's so largely due to just the atmosphere, the training and discipleship that the Bensons undertook for her during her time with them. Mm-hmm.

Anybody have any takeaway parenting lessons from this book? I'm trying to remember his name. I wrote down everybody's names. Was it Mr. Bradshaw? Yeah, that whole section where he confused Jemima about...

Mr. Farquhar, Farquhar, Farquhar, Farquhar. It just made me so mad. His involvement in getting, getting in there and manipulating the situation. Yeah. And it, it just reminded me that as parents, especially parents of teens,

So often we need to hold our tongue and hold back and let our kids work through things and figure things out for themselves and not involve ourselves because she was doing fine. And he really messed everything up for a while. And I was so rooting for them. Even when he was interested in Ruth there for a while, I was just so rooting for them to find their way back.

I also got bad advice from Mr. Bradshaw. I felt the way that he treated and expected his son, Richard, to behave and then glanced over what he actually was like was really harmful. And I think you do see that a lot where the pressure of being perfect is

is so high the parent actually doesn't see what their child truly is. And it reminded me of something Charlotte Mason said in the habit training. I think somebody mentioned it in one of the sessions. So Mr. Benson had noticed those little things happening when Richard was a little boy, how he wanted to be sly or sneak. And I was like, oh, wow, those things Mr. Bradshaw just failed to notice and nurture towards something better. Mm-hmm.

What about Bellingham's mother? She reminded me a lot of Steerforce's mother in David Copperfield, right? You know, she was proud. She was indulgent. And like you said, the appearances were what mattered. And she couldn't, she was completely blind to her own child's faults.

And the consequences were that he injured others and the sins went into the next generation had consequences, you know, and I think sometimes we think.

as long as nobody notices how bad our kid really is, then they're going to be fine. You know, and is it Charlotte Mason's, if your child had a broken leg or a fever, you would attend to that problem. And when we see character flaws in our children, even if it happens in front of other people, even if the, I mean, I've, I've been through this as a parent with a couple of teenage boys who, um,

made a lot of their sins public and there was no hiding it. And it was humbling, you know, but it's our job to guard their souls, you know, and we don't, we don't have a right to cover up their sin because we're ruining their life. Can I jump in on the parenting? Yeah. Yeah. Not, not about any of the mothers or fathers. One thing that I, that jumped out at me the very first time,

right up front in the book was when Mr. Benson was trying to reason with his sister in the inn before they brought Ruth home. And he just said, let us try simply to do right actions without thinking of the feelings they are to call out in others. And I told that to a child today who thought that someone else should feel a certain way

And I have reminded myself of that repeatedly, and I think it goes right along with what Kathy McKay was talking about today, about not thinking about the feelings that our things should do to make others feel a certain way. Right. I really, really like that. And one other that I have come back to over and over again is when Ruth, when they were at...

what was the house, Abermouth? Yeah. And it was stormy, and Elizabeth asked to climb into bed with Ruth, and she said, and in a low, hesitating voice, she spoke of God's tender mercy, but very humbly, for she feared lest Elizabeth should think her better and holier than she was. That is how I want to talk to my children about Jesus.

Yeah, there are some good parenting lessons in here. Mason also said for us personally, it teaches us that there is no fall of which we are not capable ourselves. And that's what she thought. It was like, you know, she said that, um, refinement, not the immunity against temptation, um,

I can't. I'm sorry. Yeah. Refinement is not the immunity against temptation. And there's lots of, you know, modern examples of Christian children. I mean, I know some what I thought were outstanding parents who have children in prison and they were in church every Sunday.

I actually know two or three of those. Um, and you know, as parents, we, we have to, uh, guard our children against themselves sometimes I think is what you're saying too. Yeah, we're doing good. I think it's also a good reminder. Um,

uh, Mr. Bellingham's mother, how she not only swept his sin under the rug and kind of hit it away, but she swooped in to try to solve all his problems. And I think that that's really a big temptation sometimes is to solve our kids' problems for them, but how important it is to let them face the consequences and, um, and figure out what they're going to do and support them through that, not leave them, but, um, but not to try to do it for them. Yeah.

there's another quote from charlotte mason she says um you may escape public disgrace but nothing can give you personal integrity back the loss of purity is a lifelong handicap and and she points out that bellingham suffered from that yeah yeah that it was more ruth because she repented of it and came to grips with it was able to move on and become

Not hampered by it, not marked by it. Yeah. She, she mentions his like actual physical appearance that it's hardened and what had been just glimpses in his earlier days became the pattern for his life. And I thought it was beautiful that she helped to break the generational sin with her son and,

And I hadn't really thought about it until y'all were talking about it just now. But the parallels between what Ruth and Mr. Benson talked about when it was revealed that her sin was revealed to her son. And Mr. Benson talks to her about, you know, you...

You can't shelter him from this and you would not want to shelter him from the hardness and the things that are going to come to him because of what you did. You that's part of his I forget how he words it, but it was beautiful. It was. And really what he learned was this beautiful mother that he adored that he was suddenly shocked to find out was a fallen sinful person.

you know, she continued, I mean, she, she died because she was so selfless and loving toward other people and risked her own life. And literally, you know, I feel like Bellingham kind of robbed her twice in that book, you know, but she,

I'm just curious, any other, you know, things about the whole story that we're almost out of time here, but that were just personally convicting to you or that taught you some other Christian lessons? Okay. Page 303. Is that me? Mm-hmm.

Many hunger after a chance for virtue, the help which no man gives them help that gentle, tender help, which Jesus gave once to Mary Magdalene. Amazing. I loved when Ruth on page 282 says, I think God who knows all will judge me more tenderly than men. The woman caught in adultery in the Bible and he says, go and sin no more. Mm-hmm.

I think her penitence really touched me. It was almost shocking, really, how penitent she was throughout this book. You just, you kept wanting to like give her a hug and tell her it's okay, you've been forgiven. You've shown yourself like to be an amazing woman a hundred times, you know, but her penitence was really touching to me. And it just reminds me that, you know, how...

repentance am I, even if sins that I feel like are trifling? You know, am I really penitent for the things that I do wrong against God and man? That, and then kind of going off what you were saying earlier, Liz, the, I think Charlotte Mason, she does say this at one point in one of her books, the question that

the disciples ask at the Passover, you know, is it I, Lord, that we should keep that in our minds, that we should never think ourselves too great to fall into any kind of temptation, not to live in that sort of fear, but just in a humble way, you know, is it I, Lord, is it I, and please no. We need to wrap up, but yes, I think in the contrast then between Judas who did wrong and

you know, the consequences of sin is death. And there, there was Peter who did a heinous thing also, but he returned. And I think that's the hope, you know, that we all live with. And anyway, I'm glad y'all read this book with us and that you got so many wonderful lessons from it. And I've actually read this book three times now. And every time I get new

lessons from it. So thanks for coming. And I hope you enjoy the rest of the weekend. Goodbye. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you so much.

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