This Week in YouTube April 13
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Hey everyone, this is Cory and Carly, the hosts of the Surviving Sister Wives podcast. Sister Wives returns at last, and while the Browns have gone their own separate ways, that doesn't mean they're done with each other. Mary and Janelle form an unlikely alliance, Christine is off living in newly married bliss, and Cody and Robin are left wondering, can they be happy in a monogamous relationship?

And after all the joy and drama, they hit the hot seat and answer the questions we've been begging to know. Sister Wives returns next Sunday at 10 on TLC.

Hey friends, welcome to the Renaissance English History Podcast. This is the weekly highlight reel of videos that I have put out on YouTube. So in case you don't know, you can go over to YouTube and watch all my videos. The channel is History and Coffee, and you can just search for my name as well, Heather Tesco, History and Coffee, and you will get it. And you can subscribe there. Thank you to the many people who already subscribe. And then what I've started doing is

weekly highlight reels of some of the videos that have gone out on YouTube that would be of interest to the podcast listeners as well. So thanks for listening. And you can also, like I said, go over and join me on YouTube history and coffee and search for Heather. And there I am. So let's get right into it.

Today, something exciting is happening, which is that Wolf Hall, The Mirror and the Light is on in the US, finally. So I actually did back in November and December when it was on in the UK, I did a series of videos of like reaction videos and breakdowns and things like that. But I'm going to do another set looking at different topics just because it is so popular. I'm watching it again. It's so amazing. Just like the books, like everything about Wolf Hall is just the best.

So when I was doing this first video reaction back in November, which seemed like such a long time ago, I looked at the execution scene of Anne Boleyn and how realistic was it. I kind of had this whole issue around them showing that Henry was getting married to Jane at the exact same time. I get it was for dramatic effect, but it was like bad enough as it was. You didn't have to make it exactly at the same time. Anyway.

I'll add a card to that as well. But today I'm going to talk about something different, which is the relationship between Henry and Mary, his daughter, and whether or not there was really any threat to Mary Tudor. So would Henry VIII really have killed his own daughter?

So in 1536, when the series starts, Mary Tudor was isolated. She was out of favor. She was refusing to take the oath of supremacy that named her father as the head of the church. After Anne Boleyn's fall, Mary had hoped for reconciliation. But instead, things actually wound up getting even more dangerous for her. So how close did she come to execution? And would Henry have actually done it? Let's discuss.

All right, so Mary had suffered deeply during Anne Boleyn's rise. She'd been declared illegitimate. She'd been stripped of her household. She was forcibly separated from her mother. Anne's execution in May of 1536 seemed like it might change everything. Mary hoped that Henry would soften, maybe even restore her to the line of succession. And certainly there were those like the Chauchos, the Pole family, who was hoping as well that she would get restored. But instead, Cromwell stepped in.

he made it clear if mary wanted peace she'd have to submit not just to her father but to his new role as the supreme head of the church of england the political had become personal and cromwell's pressure campaign would push her to the brink

The oath of supremacy wasn't just a signature, and this is what Bishop Fisher and Thomas More had found out. It was a renunciation, and that's why they could not sign it in good conscience. By taking the oath of supremacy, Mary would have had to deny the Pope's authority and acknowledge Henry as the head of the church, and even worse, accept that her parents' marriage had never been valid. That meant calling herself a bastard, which for a devout Catholic,

for the daughter of catherine of aragon this wasn't just painful this was perilous to her spirit to her the pope was god's voice on earth signing the oath would be a betrayal of her conscience and her faith and her mother's memory

for a time mary refused and that refusal put her life in danger cromwell didn't rely on subtlety mary was placed under a tight watch denied visits from friends and allies and bombarded with letters insisting that she submit some were laced with direct threats if she refused she could be tried for treason

and in fifteen thirty six treason meant death henry had already executed thomas more bishop fisher for refusing the same oath anne boleyn his wife had gone to the block just weeks earlier mary knew full well what her father was capable of cromwell told the imperial ambassador chapuys that mary's stubbornness could cost her her life

was it a bluff some historians think so but to mary isolated and frightened the threat probably felt very very real and she had every reason to believe that they would follow through

Would Henry have really crossed the line, though? Few monarchs ever had, but not none. Peter the Great of Russia, this was later, but Peter the Great of Russia would famously have his son, Alexei, tortured and executed in 1718 for defying him. That was two centuries later, like I said, but it does show that there was sort of an idea that this could be done, that the monarch had to put monarch ideas before family ideas.

And then you look at even just within living memory, whoever killed the princess in the tower, if they were killed, I know that's like its whole thing, but somebody hurt those boys. Somebody threatened those boys. And I know it wasn't their father, but it was their uncle potentially. And I know people have ideas. Again, I'm not trying to start like a whole princess in the tower thing. We have done that on this channel before. That's not this, but just the idea that the precedent that killing young children, killing children,

Killing people who were innocent, who hadn't even done anything, much less refusing an oath. It was there. But in Tudor England, killing your own child would have been shocking and unprecedented. Killing your daughter wasn't just cruel, it was politically dangerous. And in Mary's case, it would have made her a Catholic martyr, infuriated Europe, and possibly even triggered a war.

but what was henry even thinking well by the summer of fifteen thirty six he was determined to stamp out any opposition to his supremacy mary once his beloved pearl of the world which he called her had become a liability her refusal to submit was a challenge to everything that henry had built

But executing Mary also risked political backlash. Henry likely saw her as a pawn, not a threat that he needed to eliminate. If she submitted, he won. If she didn't, he might not flinch, but ideally she would break first. He didn't need her blood. He needed her obedience. Cromwell's job was to get it.

Had Henry executed Mary, the fallout would have been immediate. Her cousin Charles V ruled the Holy Roman Empire and was still furious about the treatment of Catherine of Aragon. Killing Mary could have sparked a war or, at the very least, drawn England deeper into isolation. Even Henry, as bold as he was, had to consider how far he could push before Europe pushed back. So, was the threat real?

Almost certainly. Would he have gone through with it? Eh, maybe. But we'll never know because Mary blinked first. She signed the submission with tears falling down her cheeks, her hand trembling. She saved her own life. It's one of the few times that Henry didn't have to choose between power and blood. But make no mistake, he came dangerously close. So what do you think? Would Henry have actually killed his daughter?

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thousands of Peloton members whose lives were changed by taking charge of their fitness routines. Now you can be one of them. Spring into action right now. Find your push. Find your power with Peloton at onepeloton.com.

Hey everyone, this is Cory and Carly, the hosts of the Surviving Sister Wives podcast. Sister Wives returns at last, and while the Browns have gone their own separate ways, that doesn't mean they're done with each other. Mary and Janelle form an unlikely alliance, Christine is off living in newly married bliss, and Cody and Robin are left wondering, can they be happy in a monogamous relationship?

And after all the joy and drama, they hit the hot seat and answer the questions we've been begging to know. Sister Wives returns next Sunday at 10 on TLC.

So last night was episode two, and it focused on a couple of things. The relationship that Lady Margaret Douglas, Henry VIII's niece, was having with a member of the Howard family, the Duke of Norfolk's half-brother, Tom Truth, Thomas Howard, the lesser, and, or the younger. I actually did a video on that back in November when it was first on. So

So you can check that out. And this video, I'm going to talk about Cardinal Woolsey's daughter because the episode ends with Cromwell going to see Dorothea at Shaftesbury Abbey and her thinking that he had betrayed Cardinal Woolsey, her father. So we're going to talk about Cardinal Woolsey's children, Cardinal Woolsey's personal life, if Dorothea was real or not. So

So when we think about Cardinal Wolsey, we picture him as this ambitious and powerful right-hand man of Henry VIII, a man who rose from very humble beginnings to become one of the most influential figures in Tudor England. But for all of these public achievements, the dramatic fall from power, Wolsey also, of course, had a private life that many people might find surprising. Among his secrets were two illegitimate children, at least a daughter named Dorothea and a son named Thomas.

So we're going to talk about Dorothea today. While Woolsey's influence shaped the fate of England, his daughter's life actually followed a very different path. Today we'll explore what we know and don't know about Dorothea Woolsey.

So Dorothea is one of those historical figures who is still quite elusive despite her intriguing connections. The records show that she was in fact the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Thomas Woolsey. His rise, of course, was matched only by his sudden and catastrophic fall. And like many high-ranking clerics of the time, Woolsey had children despite his vows of celibacy, a fact that he, like others, tried to keep unlawful.

quite discreet. Her life took a path typical for the illegitimate children of the clergy. Of course, this wasn't uncommon. She was placed in Shaftesbury Abbey, one of the most wealthiest and prestigious convents in England.

This wasn't just a practical choice. It was actually something that was quite common for the illegitimate children of the clerics. By securing her a place within the Abbey, Woolsey ensured that she would have a respectable life that was removed from the scandal of her parentage. In a way, it was a reflection of his desire to protect his daughter.

despite the contradictions of his own life. Despite being the most powerful clergyman in England, Cardinal Wolsey was not immune to the common practice of high-ranking clergymen of fathering children.

In a period when vows of celibacy were often treated more as an ideal than a rule, it was not unusual at all for bishops, abbots, even cardinals to have unofficial families. Woolsey's other known child, Thomas Winter, was born out of wedlock as well and received a university education, a privilege that few could afford.

For Woolsey, placing Dorothea in Shaftesbury Abbey made sense. It kept her safe, it kept her respectable, also kept her out of the public eye where scandal could harm his career. This practice of hiding or educating clerical children was common, especially among those who wielded significant power. In many ways, it mirrored the pre-Reformation church's tendency to turn a blind eye to the personal lives of its highest-ranking members. So who was Dorothea's mother?

Despite Woolsey's high status and the attention that his life attracted, there's remarkably little recorded about the women who bore his children. And I say women plural instead of one because it's even unclear whether Dorothea and Woolsey's other known illegitimate son Thomas shared the same mother. It might have been two.

Now, some historians speculate that Thomas's mother may have been Joan Lark, who was Woolsey's very longtime mistress. But there's no definitive proof linking her to Dorothea. So it might have been two. Joan was from Norfolk, reportedly had a relationship with Woolsey before his rise to power.

After their relationship ended, Woolsey arranged a marriage for Joan, which again was another common way for powerful men to ensure the stability and reputation of their former partners. It's what Henry VIII did with Bessie Blunt, for example, after she bore him Henry Fitzroy, his son. So we're pretty sure that Joan was the mother of Thomas, but we aren't sure whether she was the mother of Dorothea or not. Now, looking at the bigger picture of Woolsey's private life,

This wasn't happening in a vacuum. There was a whole debate that was going on at this time about clerical celibacy, and it would continue throughout. It was part of the Protestant Reformation. As the Protestant Reformation gained momentum, the idea that the clergy should remain celibate came under fire.

Now, Martin Luther himself, who Martin Luther started Lutheranism, right, in the 95 Theses in 1517, he famously got married to Katharina von Bora, who was a former nun, and openly rejected the idea that priests should remain unmarried. In England, Archbishop Thomas Cranmer had a wife. It had been a secret relationship at one point. And then after the Protestant Reformation started to take off under Edward VI, Henry's son,

They lived more openly. And then when Mary came to power, Mary I, who was Catholic, wanted to go back to clerical celibacy. He had to keep things secret again. In fact, there was this whole thing where priests who...

openly were married then under Edward and at the tail end of Henry's reign as the Protestant Reformation was gaining momentum. These priests who got married and were living openly then when Mary came back, they had to like suddenly hide it and figure out things they were going to do with their wives, jobs and ways they could like figure they had to figure it out. Right. And this was actually something that was a very big issue at the time. This wasn't just Woolsey's issue going on. So

This was a huge debate that was happening. Woolsey himself, of course, was a staunch Catholic, was loyal to the Pope, but his own disregard for celibacy combined with this immense power showed the contradictions within the church that the reformers, the Protestant reformers, were so eager to challenge. Unlike reformers who publicly embraced married life, Woolsey had to keep his relationship discreet and secret.

And so there was this tension between the tradition of the Catholic Church of clerical celibacy and these emerging Protestant ideas that wanted to encourage priests to go ahead and get married. So the historical records are very sparse, but Dorothea is becoming somebody that people are interested in again because of the way she's been shown in Wolf Hall.

showing this kind of tragic figure and the effect that her father's downfall had on her, even seeing Cromwell as somebody who had played a part in her father's fall from grace. There's also even this hint at a potential romance of sorts where Cromwell wants to protect Dorothea, and they show it in the TV show and in the book itself that he wants to protect Dorothea.

And so he even proposes to her, offering her some protection in a world that was very insecure for a woman like her. There's no records that show that Thomas Cromwell proposed to Dorothea or was looking out for Thomas Winter or anything like that. That's not in the record. But, you know, historical fiction fills in where the records leave off. So who knows? He probably would have felt a debt of gratitude to Woolsey and might have wanted to look out for his children like that, though.

I don't know. Now, what would have happened to Dorothea during the Reformation? Well, Shaftesbury Abbey itself was one of the wealthiest, most prestigious abbeys, like we said, in England, and it was dissolved in 1539 as part of the dissolution of the monasteries. It was one of the last monasteries to be dissolved. Henry's agents were moving through the country, seizing religious houses and their assets. The abbey was known for its immense wealth and its powerful connections, but even that

couldn't save it. Of course, that probably made it even more attractive to Henry who wanted that wealth. The abbess at the time, Elizabeth Zuch, surrendered the abbey peacefully and was granted a pension, as were many of the nuns. Dorothea was probably one of those nuns who was granted a pension. There's no definitive record of what happened to her after the dissolution. Some sources suggest that she would have received a small pension along with the other nuns, but it's not confirmed.

Now, after the abbeys and the monasteries were dissolved, what happened to the people who lived there? Well, if they had families, the nuns would have gone back to their families or relatives, something like that. They did get a small pension, so they weren't completely reliant on money.

the charity of their family. They would have had some ability to support themselves, but it wasn't like enough to set them up in a full household on their own or anything like that. So given the fact that Dorothy did not have a family to go back to or any kind of independent means, she probably would have struggled to find some stability in this brave new world such as it was. Since she lived a quiet life within the Abbey walls, it

It's possible that she faded into obscurity after losing her religious home. And there just aren't any clear records as to what happened to her. So it's a bit of a history's mystery how it turned out for Dorothea. But what we can say is that Dorothea did live. She had a half-brother as well, or even perhaps a full brother if they had the same mother.

We're not sure on that. And Woolsey's having these relationships was part of this bigger picture that was going on that would lead to the Reformation. It was one of the things that was debated during the Reformation itself. So it's kind of interesting to look at this one case and see how that was part of this bigger theme. And she went to Shaftesbury Abbey. Shaftesbury Abbey was dissolved. We're not sure what happened to her. And there's no proof that Cromwell proposed marriage to her.

So that's a little bit about Dorothy Woolsey. Dorothea, Dorothy, she's known by both names, Dorothy Woolsey. So there you go. If you are watching Wolf Hall, let me know in the comments what you think about it. I'm such a Wolf Hall fan. It's just such a beautiful, such a beautiful show. Thanks so much for listening to this week's YouTube highlights. Remember, you can go over and subscribe. History and Coffee, Heather Tesco, you will find me there.

And we'll be back again next week with more highlights from what went out on YouTube throughout the week. Thanks so much. Have a great week.

Hey everyone, this is Cory and Carly, the hosts of the Surviving Sister Wives podcast. Sister Wives returns at last, and while the Browns have gone their own separate ways, that doesn't mean they're done with each other. Mary and Janelle form an unlikely alliance, Christine is off living in newly married bliss, and Cody and Robin are left wondering, can they be happy in a monogamous relationship?

And after all the joy and drama, they hit the hot seat and answer the questions we've been begging to know. Sister Wives returns next Sunday at 10 on TLC. Hey folks, it's Mark Maron from WTF. It's spring, a time of renewal, of rebirth, of reintroducing yourself to your fitness goals.

and Peloton has what you need to get started. You can take a variety of on-demand and live classes that last anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour. There are thousands of Peloton members whose lives were changed by taking charge of their fitness routines. Now you can be one of them. Spring into action right now. Find your push. Find your power with Peloton at onepeloton.com.